Dread Talons and Night Lords in Codex Chaos Space Marines- Detachment Review and Thoughts!
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- Опубліковано 10 чер 2024
- Let's talk about the murderous Dread Talons detachment and the battleshock shenanigans it can pull off in game!
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0:00 Intro
1:40 Night Lords in 40K
3:13 Dread Talons Core Rule
5:33 Dread Talons Stratagems
11:36 Dread Talons Enhancements
13:34 Thoughts
14:45 Outro - Ігри
auspex is now popular enough to lure porn bots. Truly a dark age we enter
Abominable intelligences must go
I think you mean the loyal acolytes of Slaanesh?
Night Lords looking up from the gutter at the glowing full moon that is the Horus Heresy morale system.
At least the charge after enemy falls back strat is neat.
As a Night Lords player, yup, thats seems about right. Now to look back at the other detachments to figure out which one ill be using this edition.
probably the alpha legion one
:'( same
@@dragonofdragons1720the Red Corsairs one isn’t too bad
So the TLDR of this is Night Lords: great if they fix battle-shock to be useful, shit if they don't.
same as chaos knights. I've literally never had a game where the army rule or index detachment rule is relevant, or even impacted a game
Definitely has some decent tricks, but would it've killed them to include a detachment rule like "+1 to wound vs. battle-shocked units" or something? So many bonuses to triggering battle-shock, but it doesn't really /do/ very much unless you're spending CP.
not arguing its actually good, but battleshocked enemies have lot of disadvantages in the fight phase. No combat interruptions, no defensive throttles, no obsec. IMO the weak part is -1 to the test kinda doing not much to make it happen more often.
More than I expected but less than I'd hoped.
It kinda hinges on if the raptors debuffs to leadership will stack so you can have -1 to leadership and if the jump pack lord has a solid ability.
he has a 6inch consolidate
Yeah like if I have more than one unit of raptors does it also stack again?
@@Boneprince7413
Yes it does stack but I believe that it's only applying on Raptors ability and the night lord detachment ability once
They seriously need to either revamp battleshock or stop writing detachments around it that might be kinda fluffy, but do essentially nothing on the tabletop.
At least this will do something lol, the dark angels battle shock only a activates like maybe once in a hundred times
@@Rikksmith Sure, but "doing something" shouldn't really be the bottomline ^^
It's even worse than that I reckon. The way battleshock currently works isn't healthy. There's basically 2 extremes. Either battleshock focused rules barely do anything (which is currently the case for most places this exists) or they are downright oppressive (if they are actually supposed to do something). There's just 2 extremes ... feels bad to use vs feels bad to play against. So absolutely ... they either need to rework it or stop writing detachments/army rules that work around it (and probably rework all the ones that already do).
Personally, there's some potential to decouple all these rules from actual battleshock (aka the basic battleshock rule). Maybe introduce another state that inherently does nothing, but offers various buffs/options for factions that are supposed to be "terror" focussed. That way you can vastly buff the odds of reaching that state.
if battleshock also amde oyu lose your army rule for a turn, like AM cant use orders, Tau cant spot etc but for everyone, it'd be far more of an impact.
@@ZeZwede that's one way to make it more impactful but also more frustrating (i play both of them). It's certainly a way to make it stronger. However, it doesn't change anything about its unreliability.
They got Night Lord's right in heresy but consistently get them wrong in 40k. They should take some inspiration from the heresy legion rules.
There's definitely some interesting combos, but GW really dropped the ball not designing strats that give a benefit that gets *better* with Battleshock. Also, they really brought Stormbolt Plate forward and not an actually cool relic like Claws of the Stygian Count? They're literally using us to sell the Jump Lord box, calling out us and the lightning claws, and we can't have our relic lightning claws? Really James Workshop?
Imagine how chaos knights feel 😢
Yeah, I think this is underwhelming detachments, especially without any kind of conditional battleline for Raptors/Warp talons to carry the operations, and the enhancement is lack on deep strike ability to caught enemy off guard
Sorry relics are too confusing. You can only have copy paste useless bonus rules in enhancements.
You can charge units when they fall back which isn’t even that cool in 9th you had a Strat that made it so much ounhad an aura of can’t fall back which is just better. Also the claws were awesome and the warlords traits were good despite the rule not being so good. So we get better shooting while battleshocked and the index gets better shooting for taking a leadership
Test other armies get better shooting for shooting, while on objectives etc… so basically other armies get better or equal rules that you can actually trigger reliably and control while night lords get a crap army rule that will only
Work 1/10th of the time if that and if it’s a critical moment the opponent will just use insane bravery and it’s pretty much a fuck you strategems
To battle shock rules
Sad Ave Dominus Nox noises.
Last edition we had From The Night and We Have Come For You strats, a +1 wound in there.
Could have done some sort of CP farming game with battleshock units to generate CP and have cool strats to work with at least if you dont want to change the battleshock mechanic itself
Yea generating extra CP actually sounds cool
Decent stratagems but the whole battleshock stuff is so boring now. It's hardly effective so to be have a detachment based on it is underwhelming.
Hi, Tyranids player here. Try having a whole army based on it :^)
@@colindoan4135 as a chaos knight player atleast you have other detachments
thats a joke we both are in the gutter with shit rules
I mean if you run deathstalker, neurolictor and screamerkillers it has a chance of working.
@@christophermetzger8183 exactly, A CHANCE 🤣
@@bestnameever1850 lmao true, *cries in 43% win rate*.
The real issue with the battleshock mechanic isn't that it's intrinsically bad its just the fact that 50% of the armies you face have ways of nullifying it!
“Because picking a unit within twelve and auto battleshocking them for some cp cost would be so ridiculously broken that the world would explode and lead to the instant heat death of the universe.” -GW detachments team (probably)
GW needs to start realizing that -1 to leadership/battleshock tests is not enough
If you work hard with the raptors you can stack it to -2, but still not very effective
Ave Dominus Nox Brothers
Would have been great if stratagems were “do x, do x and y if enemy unit is battle shocked and/or below half strength”
Merciless pursuit is fun though.
There is a similar idea in the current CSM Index ; "Do X, if you have the right mark, also do Y"
I'm surprised they don't have significant modifiers to battleshock tests. You'd think a battleshock specialist faction would be really good at forcing battleshock to stick, but apparently not.
A great way to buff battle shock is to have it stay for one complete turn. So if you battle shocked a guard squad during your fight phase, it only has a chance to lose at the end of your opponent's fight phase.
I'm not super thrilled at ANY of the detachments we've seen so far for CSM, so I might run this on my Night Lords just because its the most flavorful. Maybe Renegade Raiders is the only other one I'd consider.
This would be alot better if the Demon prince, possessed, and chaos spawn kept their -1 leadership from 9th instead of just Raptors. Battleshock just rarely comes come up to make it effective
It's definitely a very swingy rule, but it came up in my last game and swung hard in my favor- tanks failing battle shock meant that they would need to desperate escape, no rerolls, and two failed battle shock rolls probably won me the game, even though the unit that failed wasn't on an objective.
plaguebearers with a poxbringer have another -1 to battleshock if you're trying to find as many tools to ruin checks as possible
Well seeing that now Night Lords have the full (garbage) Chaos Knight rules, I have high hopes that the Chaos Knights codex will give them a useful army rule.
If this is the direction he is going for I wish the rule gave them just one more thing. A good extra boost would be dark pacts while targeting battle shock would grant lethal and sustained. Or grants either one on 5+
So a ton of ways to trigger battleshock, a couple ways to make it more likely for enemies to fail the tests and stratagems that allow you to punish your opponents for failing the battleshock test.
While it doesn't scream busted it does look like it can be a ton of fun play when it all clicks. Forcing opponents off objectives through sheer terror, eliminating their leaders to break morale and kicking them while they're already down. All very Night Lords. I'm happy for the scary lads in blue. For the longest time their rules have been lacking, but it's looking like they get to have fun this edition.
Play it into the DA Unforgiven Detachment, might make them stronger
Night Lords: unspeakable horror and psychological warfare
Unforgiven: Joke's on you, I'm into that
I hope this leads to a Lucoryphus mini eventually
I'd love that or a Varial the Flayer mini with Decimus being my first choice.
@@friendlyneighbourhoodsunwheel with the emphasis on named characters recently, a Decimus or Varial would also be amazing. The Nightlords deserve a chapter master level miniature for leading their units!
They should get more. Bloody Example is pointless, and should be a free rule, not a whole command point. Several of their strategems should be free, if the army relies on Battleshock, let it mean something horrendous when it happens. Or an army rule could be gain a CP every time you cause Battleshock. Things like fall back and charge is nice with lightning claws.
I don't hate it, but needs more power. Good luck to anyone trying to get one of the new boxes, they are both v nice.
As a night lords player…this isn’t wonderful. At least the kill team gets some decent rules.
I think screaming Descent is really goofy with a lack of good jump pack guns. Though if they changed it to be 'you can 6" deepstrike, but can only charge units that are battleshocked'. It could still provide some damage output and 6" can still be a tough screen for achieving secondaries. Being still jump pack only I think that would make it scary but not unreasonably powerful.
Hm may try noise marines with this as they force battleshock test on hit
So you could take a squad of 10 raptors, with 4 melta guns, plasma and fist on sarge. With jump lord and warp thruster enhance, use the close deep strike strat to have 4 guaranteed melta range shots, with either sustained or lethal depending on target, if half the squad dies after, still got all spec weapons, pick up and do the whole thing again.
I don't imagine it being super good, but seems like a decent anti tank threat? Especially if you get the strat for free, or manage to battleshock a decent target for them, and get those full rerolls too.
Sounds like my brothers. Ave Dominus Nox.
This might be good for raptors and warp talons because of the warpflame effect though you'd have to hope the enemy even wants to fall back for desperate escape
I actually just sold all of my CSM but if I had them, would insta-try this with max amount of Raptors. Looks really cool and refreshing tactic.
As we expected very heavy battleshock focus. Infact almost everything focuses around it. Through sheer weight of leaderships tests it's likely gonna be somewhat useful at random times. But proffessional players don't necessarily want that. But the sheer amount you can force battle shocks and exploit them seems fun. Would be a great detachment if you are playing something like 2v2 or something where the raptors player does alot of utility and battleshock with their partner doing alot of heavy lifting.
I was kinda hoping for a second part of their detachment rule like an effect against battleshocked units. Only unit specific abilities and strats are gonna be useful against someone who's shicked. I was kinda expected something similiar to deamons where you force mortal wounds on people who get shocked in your 12 inch auras. Implying your make them so scared they run away.
Night Lords should (and previously did) have Stratagems around stealth and amusing as well which just as much part of their lore as the terror stuff so would have been nice to have a few useful strats around those. I think previously we had "in midnight clad" and Strike from the shadows".
As Auspex has been saying since the start of 10th.
You should have to test to regroup in your command phase, if your units were battleshocked in your opponents turn.
Would make battkeshock abilities soooooo much better
Will the Raptor ability to force Battle Shock stack with the Detachment ability?
Id imagine guard armies do not want to play against this detachment.
The Battleshock rules as stands dont really support fluff factions that rely on it. Should have had an enhancement:
Screaming Mask: Wearer may force an opponent to reroll any battleshock test within 12inches, and once per game a single unit does not recover from battleshock at the start of their opponents turn.
I assume from the wording in the dread talons warhammer comminity article that cultists can no longer take ranged (just pistols)
Screaming Descent against Gretchins etc on a back field objective would work.
Might need some noisemarines or allied Skullcanons for gurantied Bshock.
Maybe even an Knight abominant for its effects?
Couldve done something cool like negatives to hit if battleshocked and extending the battleshock depending on unit strength to capitalise on the theme of fearful attrition, maybe wirh stratagems that force LD to approach a higher unit-strength'd unit, or hazardous rolls for falling back from melee dishing out mortal wounds (or paying a tithe of a model or two) for fleeing combat.
But nah, another boring -1 modifier that doesnt really do much outside of stratagems, so their entire theme is restricted to being through a universal resource.
I genuinely think Battleshock has the potential to be a deep mechanic but James Workshop is so afraid of making unbalanced Battleshock rules that theyre instead releasing bland, dissapointing ones.
It’s a simple fix- drop everyone’s leadership by 1 point.
At that level, even Space Marines are only about 50:50 to pass and a -2 debuff makes it 28%, meaning battle shock is somewhat reliable and you can plan around it to an extent.
Being able to have a good chance of stopping someone using stratagems and claim primary is actually a really cool ability if it is reliable.
@@dawkinsforpopethat really messes with the armys that cant do their faction rules if battleshocked Eg: Imperial gaurd and Tau, that feels like a bit of a harsh 'fix'
@@user-hv6gi9ux6z IG and Tau should be vulnerable to battle shock though. There should be ways to mitigate it as well, but you should need to build around it.
Armies being affected by battle shock is a feature, not a bug. You should need to think hard about how to counter it; for example, by screening well so units can’t get in range to apply the debuffs to begin with, stacking multiple units on an objective so at least some of them will pass the test, using characters, etc.
Everyone is fine building to counter units which can casually delete IG and T’au squads in shooting or assault- why not ones which can debuff them through battle shock?
This detachement need to include some allies like the Abomminant Knight, some tzeentch Demon Unit or Noise Marines, these unite have also have Battleshock Mecanics
i think this is probably the best battle-shock detachment they've done, but i don't know that its good enough. lots of chances for the battle-shock though.
looks like the whole codex was leaked now. Vets of the long war is really nice
The nearest for making leadership a thing a night lord is good at. When the CSM were still using the 8th edition codex in 9th edition still when they had 1 wound still for a marine model . Night lord trait with a mark of nurgle would of allow making them have a -3 to leadership for moral roles were nice on paper fighting armies or units that have a hard time beating a -3 modifyer for a unit role then . Hopefully in 10th they make Night Lord feel like Night Lords again . Hopefully these rules make some CSM raptors list more fun to play . A part of me will miss out on some of the relic's or artifacts characters could of took in 9th edition for Night Lords . As they were fitting for this legion .
Very cool rules, very fluffy
I can see the 3" deep strike being kinda fun with a 10 stack of raptors with 4 meltas. Drop em by a vehicle and see if u can pop it.
Pretty gimicky but I can see it being fun :~)
This detachment is an attempt to sell more Raptors and Warptalons.
They could have at least given relic lightning claws - but I suppose those are too complicated for the “new Simplified-not-simple”
I like night lords but I've 0 idea how to build them. Like how do you even go about making the night lords models? Do you use green stuff to convert them or what?
As always they do my boys dirty 😬 I was hoping they would let every units -1 to leadership test stack
The AP strat should be 0cp against battle shocked units
I think if they got a damage buff against battle shocked units that be great
Like maybe getting 5+ for dark pacts
Does anyone give a damn about Battleshock though? Really? Other than GW that is.
mandatory battleshock detachment
As a Guard player who mainly plays against a friend who plays Night Lords, this is actually scary. Way to go Night Lords, you made the player take a battle shock test.
A single 30pt commissar dabs on this entire detachment lmao
@@Sha_Bingus Not really. Commisars are once per battle round and only at the start of a phase, so if they get triggered by a deep strike, they're out of luck during the shooting and melee and then your own turn. Also, it just removes the Battleshock after it happens, and happening in the first place kills your orders, so you lose Go to Ground or Fix Bayonettes, or the Ob Control one, even if you off one of your own dudes.
I mean, it's really not a big deal, the truth is that when Chaos Marines get with 12" of your infantry you're already dead anyway, heheh.
The biggest part that worries me, is how Night Lords can pretty much make sure you won't get to use Reinforcements, cause you're going to be shocked when you get wiped out, and if you already used your Commissar and then got re-shocked, your unit is gone. Also, you can't Commissar if you already have 2 leaders, which means that Lord Solar + Command for Vox doesn't get one.
I mean, my friend plays Night Lords... let's give him this one, I think he deserves it for playing Night Lords as Night Lords for years.
So i can make my Possessed go be scary with this.
Or have the opponent go huh what are those Word Bearers doing.
The thing that bugs me the most is that the loyalist marine 1st company detachment has an enhancement that causes D3 mortal wounds when nearby foes fail leadership tests. Why did the dread talon detachment not get something similar? It seems like such an easy win for theme and potential with how much battleshock the rest of the detachment does
Dark angels players will finally have another opponent to play unforgiven against
horus heresy gives NL +1 to hit or to wound (edition depending) against targets that have failed morale, or (and this is crucial) that they OUTNUMBER. How hard is it to print +1 to hit if you have more dudes, like seriously!
Chaos Cult BABYYY
Does this mean that my chaos knights will get reworked to have useful army/detachment rules? Because this seems kinda silly that they get almost our entire army and detachment rule rolled into one AND dark pacts….
Is the Night Lords Kill Team its own unit?
My regular opponent who plays Hyperphase Crypt is currently trying to tell me this detachment is even stronger than his. Am I missing something here?
Against units with worse leadership, getting charged and having to take battle shock each turn just turns who holds the objective into a crapshoot. I'm also not sure if he can pull anything out of engagement range, or if they can be targeted when battle shocked, for the detachment ability.
HMMMM, 5+ criticals hits on demand, or some battleshock... Hmmmm, a real headscratcher this.
It seems that the Willbreaker's main use will be setting up units for another unit's attack, so for example if you charge into an ongoing combat against something tough and hit them with it, you then set them up for Pitiless Hunters from the other unit. It might also turn off some nasty offensive combat strats. Night Lords might like to bring along some allied Noise Marines if they keep their ability of causing battleshock.
In any case this'll be a detachment I don't play and don't want to run into, because battleshock hates me. Every time someone pops Shadow in the Warp at me my entire freaking army fails, whereas with my Chaos Knights I'm lucky to see one enemy unit fail a test in the entire game. The dice, they are fickle.
This truly depends on if anything causes out of phase battle shock but where is my "in midnight clade"
Personally, if the unit didn’t just pretty much immediately get out of battleshocked at the end of player’s turn it’d be better
See now why does their +1 AP stratagem have a restriction. I (Black Templars) just get that without any restrictions for a CP. (Crusader‘s Wrath)
Damn the bots beat me here
Was really hoping for something like talent for murder with some uppie downy strats and got a nothing burger at least armoured company night lords looks funny
i want the IW or the alpha legion one to be good
Make bloody example 2 cp and failed battleshocks last until your next command phase
Everything that has to do with battleshock just simply sucks.
This detachment sucks.
Tyranids definitly suck.
And chaos knights only dont suck because they have the most insane datasheets, but pay for this by having no army rule and no detachment rule.
Honestly if you're a night Lords fan but hate the whole battleshock thing you're kinda into the wrong army.
Fitting that the terror legion has a terrible detachment. I doubt I'll ever play against this.
Battle shock has become what Morale used to be. A part of the game a majority of players forget exists and GW doesn't support in the rules.
Ok, now that I've read the codex, I have to say I'm also disillusioned.
A few of my favorites got massive nerfs....
Possesed and Obliterators and Venomcrawlers... :/
I get the impression GW keeps making Morale awful in 40K, specifically because fear effects are the Night Lords' thing. And GW wants to enforce that Night Lords are always underdogs.
1 ap when shooting a battleshocked unit is so weak lol several armies just get 1ap as an ability on a unit data sheet including csm I could just pick a better detachment and is a sorcerer in terminator armor. This is literally the best they could think of to represent terror….kinda sad lol
Auspex please... just go to bed... just once...
Very thematic and seems fun.
raaaaaa funny jumpy boys
I swear it's like GW hates the Night Lords as much as Conrad did. It's a terrible shame, some of the best looking CSM models too.
If Noise Marines still cause BS tests, that could make this detachment work better.
Thank god I don’t need to hear another poorhammer video about not having enough detachment rules
I was looking forward to this one. GW fails to disappoint when it comes to making disappointing rules.
Battle shock does pretty much nothing, neither competitive nor narrative games. I feel like battleshock needs to have a rework. Generally the objective thing is okay but the stratagem part doesnt matter. Lets them have strats (maybe all but insane bravery) and instead rework the 2nd part to something like:
- is forced to fall back from comeback
- gets benefits od cover but has -1 to WS and BS
- cant charge
- cant do actions (tbh not sure if they can now either)
- +1 to wound in melee against BS units
Anyway something along the lines of these effects would fit the theme and have actual imoact.
Well, I'm very pleased to see the effort that's been put into the CSM codex, but boy does it kinda make the T'au Custodes books look bad, definitely needs to be an 11th edition thing where no army gets more or less of the fundamental army building blocks (detachments for now) than any other.
It is wild that they just straight up give some armies double the options of others. Like, guys. Tau and Custodes got 3 usable detachments between the 2 of them.
Let's go night lords! Can't wait to get the kill team when it drops by itself
Could split the dual box with someone wanting mandrakes.
@@keyanklupacs6333 if I was quicker this would have been an option but it seems like everyone who wanted to part out a box (aside from eBay resellers) already did
You know at this point there's no use to follow GW on their socials
By the time you open socials and see their announcement auspex already made three videos and a meta analysis about it
Ironically Dark Angels would love to face this with the unforgiven task force. Lore accurate angels bodying these emo try hards
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God I love being a word bearers fan and not a night lords fan. Ya'll get fucked on rules constantly.
At least make the battle shock auto, not a test, GW keep pushing Morale dumb rules and detachment that nobody uses for being underwhelming if not useless at all.
Nightlord rules!
So it just battleshock shenanigans? Without any scout/infiltrator/deep strike/lone operator buff? Or raptors/warp talons battleline keyword?
Hasn't even been 5 minutes and there's already porn bots spamming the comment section...
The porn bots appear to be butts posting flattering remarks about auspex. That might be ass but at least they know what's what.
Yeah... this detachment is a waste of time.