NEAR MID-AIR COLLISION at Burbank | "Is he off the runway yet?"
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- Опубліковано 26 лют 2023
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Another too tight takeoff/landing sequence...
That was close too. According to radar tracks, less than a mile, same altitude.
Real
N76DZ had an engine flameout yesterday and diverted.
When did this happen
Interestingly enough, one was ..5326 and the other ..5826. Probably didn't help.
tower i have a number for u to call
ATC: "You don't want to land anymore?"
Pilot: "I'd like a hold until your shift is over."
I think it might have ended right there, it was a different controller talking at the very end.
😂😂😂😂😂😂
Yeah That Comeback From That Pilot Was Priceless
Thanks!, I needed that. LOL😂
🤣
I can't believe they right her alone in the tower.
*golfclap*
Hahaha! That went under a lot of heads, LOLOL.
You’re left about that one.
😂
These are the comments I’m here five! 😂
There's no question that the controller is struggling and has lost the picture...I'm curious as to a supervisory response or actually lack thereof during this incident...
She was probably working alone.
@@northmaineguy5896 If that's true, that's really bad. That was clearly too busy for one person with no assistance.
So when the landing plane did the go-around, ATC gave them runway heading and then told the departing aircraft to continue it's climb-out with no expedited turns. Tbf the departing aircraft wasn't on scope yet but ATC knew they were going to meet.
The chessboard was active for sure. You can see a certain thought process working, but then you can see it derail as she started to change/confuse instructions. I hope that she wasn't the only one in the tower. There had to have been a tower boss... somewhere.
ATC lady didn't know her left from her right. I thought it was telling when she asked "Do you not want to land anymore?" Pilot thinks to himself "No thanks, we'll keep going to the next airport!"
"47C, do you not wanna land anymore?"
"I'm having second thoughts about it, for sure."
That is 2 close calls in a very short time.. and the left, right corrections all the time does make it even more confusing..
Two wrongs make a left, right? No, I mean right!
this is how I imagine I would be if I was teleported into a controllers position right now (with zero training, and totally in a mental overload shock)...
when a professional controller is this bad, something is very very wrong.... not just gone wrong, but medically physically off.
@@stanislavkostarnov2157 "Turn left right now! No my right! I mean left!"
@@stanislavkostarnov2157 IDK that anything medically was off. She had quite a workload throughout this, just on the radio, not even considering anything else she has to do. Things weren't working out as she expected - I think she thought 47C would get to landing quicker? I'm not really sure why she told Air Shuttle that traffic was holding position and to continue. She completely left out that they were holding *on the runway*. Anyway, then it just spiraled; she told 47C to break off and tried to keep him clear, but didn't do so clearly. Then instead of re-assessing, she continued with her plan (which was obviously to open up 33 for Air Shuttle), by clearing for takeoff. Then Air Shuttle didn't accept the landing, and suddenly she had a big problem on her hands and couldn't see past her plan to solve it...
I don't know why she didn't just tell Air Shuttle to make a left turn instead of clearing them to land (or even at the start of their go around) though...
@@hotlavatube No, but 3 lefts make a right.
The only place I'd want to transition to is the hell out of that airspace. Distinction between left and right. Inability to properly separate traffic. Driving two flights into an R/A. Unbelievable!
"...47 Charlie - no i do not wanna land as you scare me..." XD
That left/right mixup in the middle of an RA is kind of terrifying. This is why you do what the RA says and ignore the controller.
That’s what I was thinking: divert!
haha yea please transition me out of your control space , what is going on with ATC lately. Mixing up left and right, aint good when you got pilots depending on you. Luckily the pilots SA told him to do a go around. Just a matter of time until something horrible happening.
And the 2nd time this has happened in as many weeks.😬
Controller needs to learn her left and her right…
From R. Lee Ermey, no less!
It's a woman. So forget it.
@@wagmiorngmi Wow, talk about sexist. LOL! Do you have very large eyebrow ridges and a low forehead?
Being fatigued and stressed will do that to you
@@imzanky6321 nah being a woman might already do that for you in some cases.
Good to see TCAS working as intended.
My exact thought, ty.
Things are really starting to slip. Stay sharp out there everyone and trust your gut if it doesn’t feel right.
Pilots did exactly that. They heard ATC going into overload and took command. That was definitely a goat rodeo.
It's concerning how often how often we're seeing these type of incidents lately.
Apparently, knowing your right from your left is no longer a requirement to be an ATC.
@@GeekmanCA It is all because of "diversity, equity, and inclusivity". This will get worse. People are now being hired based only on their skin color, sexual preference and gender. Skill and experience no longer matter.
vax-brains
What in the world is going on out there. Between this one and the one in Austin (Fedex and SWA) a couple of weeks ago. Two very close calls and both definitely ATC errors. As a retired ATCS since 2010, I'm beginning to get concern as to what kind of training, or lack thereof, is happening to our controllers. Where is the supervision? In both of those situations, the pilots did a better job of air traffic control than the controllers in the tower. Watch out everybody. Keep your eyes open and stay alert.
Diversity hires
@@shonuff4323😂. It’s not funny but you nailed it.
Maybe the recent FAA Call to Action to include the ATO is more than timely.
@@shonuff4323 Spot on!
Don't worry, every federal agency was mandated to put their DEI task forces into motion immediately as the pressing issue for the federal government to address via executive order. That kind of thing sure seems more important than fixing the clear loss of standards in ATC and severe understaffing in ATC. Good to know folks have their priorities straight.
Definitely was the controller's fault. Even worse is that she made Air Shuttle follow Skywest too close
She sounds fatigued early in the recording, even before she made her many mistakes.
Where’s the phone number for the controller ?
You're absolutely left, er, I mean right!
The USA is the only place I know they clear to land with a busy runaway.
@@carlosgarcialalicata yeah, in Europe, you don’t get a landing clearance until the traffic is off the runway, even if that means you get your clearance only about a mile from the threshold
4:30 "do not still want to land?"
I'd reply: "After we get a new controller."
47C: Not at this airport!
If this keeps up it’s only a matter of time until it’s big headlines. Please keep on your toes everyone, and remember, if it doesn’t feel right, it usually isn’t right. Stay safe folks.
Whats changed in the past couple of years, is it needle shaped? Also remember the WEF want us to stop flying and stay at home
Diversity and equity is resulting in controllers who do not have the skills to perform their jobs safely.
ua-cam.com/video/9bZsLP-ogYg/v-deo.html
@@stevej02 your name checks out at least
@@dscherer18 unsurprising you play the man not the ball
"Do you not want to land anymore?"
Pilot: "Not if you're controlling, ma'am."
Emotional Damage! 😂😂😂
The right/left was bad, but worst was when 47C was on 26 Final, and then told "go around and turn base for 33". Makes ZERO sense. 47C was before the 26/33 intersection, so an immediate left turn would put 47C on a RIGHT DOWNWIND for 33, or after the intersection would put 47C on a LEFT DOWNWIND for 33. And then a few seconds later told to "start your crosswind". That's the 2nd confusing command. Commands should have been "Turn right/left to heading XXX"
Seems like a lot of near misses recently. Something bad is going to happen soon.
Quite. I was listening to that and looking at the plot, and thinking what the heck does she want? At that point, I think I’m just asking for a heading and direction of turn so I can understand her intentions. But I guess if she doesn’t know left from right, that’s not going to help much either…
A right downwind would probably work for a couple of miles, what that controller ended up with was another aircraft to worry about. For that matter, this may have prevented an early turn to 270 for the landing aircraft.
Yup, and it’s going to involve Southwest. Based on what I’ve seen, especially over the last 12 months, thanks to channels like this and live ATC, I wouldn’t fly in the US period. The poor maintenance causing regular returns and diversions, poor ATC comms, commercial pilots acting like international standards don’t apply to them, uncontrolled ground ops.. it’s a mess, and Southwest always seems to figure in there somewhere.
From my understanding flying privately vfr and ifr around SoCal, controllers do not give heading assignments to VFR pilots. Instead of saying "flying 270 degrees", they will say "turn left/right 20 degrees", "fly suggested heading of 270 degrees", etc. Don't know the exact reason behind. (Maybe because when VFR pilots are responsible for maintaining seperation with traffic, maintain VMC, and so heading assignments doesn't make sense?)
@@virginiaviola5097 Don’t see how this is on WN. Controller squarely to blame. As to the usual whining about non-standard RT: please! Although I guess if she’d got the ICAO terms “left” and “right” correct, maybe that would have helped a little…
Oh wow this is the first time I've personally known someone in a VASAviation video.
N704AB was being flown by my friend instructing a student, based of out Van Nuys Airport, which is why they have to transit Burbank airspace to get back home (like without having to climb into space to get around it). You'll hear two voices out of the four or five calls they make, the first and last call are made by the student, the ones in between were made by him. I sent him this video, he said this all happened at night, which made things worse, on top of the wind gusts and reverse operations. He said he remembered things were very busy on frequency and that they heard the near miss happen.
I also used to work as ramp crew at Burbank a year ago. Here's the thing about reverse operations at Burbank Airport: in short, it sucks. Burbank is such an old airport that when they widened the runways I don't know how many years ago they couldn't account for the safety margin of distance needed between the apron and the runway itself, you'll see the apron kinda just blends into the start of RWY 33. During normal operations when they're using RWY 15, they cannot move any jets out of the B gates at the same time departures happen because, in order to do so, they have to close the runway. That's right, the jet gets so close to the runway pushing back from the B gates that they have to shut down the runway every time they come out. Now, it's not so bad when the traffic is just going to the other side of the airport to take off. But when it's reverse operations and now everyone is crowding over to the other side, it gets so badly congested. They can only let one aircraft around the corner past the B gates to back taxi and then take off, theres a line of private jets on the opposite side on taxiway G, Southwest are stuck behind everybody losing money, and tower can feel the tension from all the traffic that's backed up. And now..... you have a controller..... goofing up their left from right....
The millions dollar expansion coming to Burbank airport cannot come quickly enough. They need a new terminal that avoids all of these problems, and they need it yesterday.
(Disclaimer: I've never personally been involved in airplane operations) Thanks for pointing out the peculiarities of KBUR. A cross-reference between aerial photos and an airport diagram shows some runway holding position markings on the apron, as the ultimate evidence that this layout is a total mess indeed.
If I'm not mistaken, runway 15 seems to allow LAHSO, which might somewhat decouple the runways during normal operations, but that's not the case in reverse operations, probably adding to the complexity of the takeoff congestion.
The unsung hero here is the TCAS RA and the fact that the pilot was complying with it!
Never heard a controller mix up left from right so many times.
it seemed an equal number of times.
Tells the legend after 2000 years N704AB was still looking for a VFR transition :)
This is starting to get pretty scary... and serious. Solutions need to be applied before the training and luck runs out
seems to be one of those situation where the basic system as it is, is fine, its the human element that makes up the system that seems to be the problem...
The amount of close calls are very alarming
… in the USA that is. In Europe in sometimes busier airspaces no stress whatsoever
@@lammie001 not really. You have to consider just how many major airports there are in the U.S. in many different states that go day by day, year by year, and hundreds of thousands of flights without incident. A few incidents and close calls here and there, you can't just categorize the whole system like that, just considering how large it is like in Europe.
@@Jack3md I disagree. If for example we compare busy airports like JFK with LHR and AMS, you must agree that there is a flaw in either the ATC professionalism or the procedures( or non adherence). There is absolutely zero stress in the two mentioned European airports and yet if it always mayhem at JFK with too fast, rude and ineffective communication. Especially LHR is a good comparison cause they deal with just as much traffic from other nearby airports. Lets just say the US should do waaaay better than this.
@@lammie001 I disagree. Especially with an airport like LHR, not really comparable at all to an airport like Kennedy or O'hare, mainly due to the layout. Just do a little research and you'll see the differences in the number of taxiways, runways, gates etc. Then you add in the airspace with a total of 3 major airports such as EWR, LGA, JFK.. in a pretty congested area and it gets a lot more confusing and stressful pretty quickly. I have flown into major countries in Europe for over 20 years and out of airports in the U.S. like ORD, JFK for years and can say they both are extremely well trained on both ends for what they do and handle every day. Looking at the flight data and passengers carried between American and European airports and you'll come to the conclusion that they both have not had any major crash/fatality incidents in a long time, which is a GOOD thing. Let's hope that continues. Again like my original comment, you can't really just sum up "the US" as a whole, for how big it is and how many major airports there are, that operate many thousands of flights and millions of passengers every day without incident. A few close calls here and there doesn't give you the appropriate reasoning to just assume it is "better" elsewhere because you might not think it isn't happening.
yeah, all things being equal, I'm shocked there are any left at all
Jeeezzz controller doesn't know left from right.
I know many women who don’t know their left from right 😂
I'm concerned how many times the controller messed up left and right
Good grief that controller needs to learn her left from right.
Sheesh… these close calls are starting to get out of hand
I keep telling people something real bad is about to happen.
people nodding off after the poke and lock downs
@@robertd7073 Most planes should be crashing and controllers falling asleep by this logic
@@strnglhld I love your responses but you are wasting your time. Logic/facts mean nothing to these types
@@inshallamiami I saw a comment blaming a “medical event” on the shot…on a video from 2018. Cracks me up
I was waiting for this one, so I could see more clearly what happened. All they told us locally was that Mesa pulled up and away when they realized Skywest was taking off. They didn't mention the collision alert on the north side of the airport! I live on the south side, almost in line with 33. We did have landing pattern that day, it does screw them up over there when they can't use the other runway for landings, but sheesh...left from right? Really? Put stickers on your hands like we did in kindergarten!
I was ATC at BUR back in the 80s; are the "stacks" still there? I can't remember if it was 3, 4 or 5 stacks but we used it as a reporting point.
Better yet, find a different career. Left-right confusion happens to some more than others - some way more - and these people are not fit to do ATC or any occupation where hundreds of lives depend on clarity of mind.
@@northmaineguy5896to the north? Yes, still there.
the news said it was Trump's fault
It is good to see that pilots have situational awareness when the controller get's behind and can't tell left from right. THe last controler voice was a different person so the original may have been taken off the desk.
The SkyWest should not have taken off if they had situational awareness
@@coorsbanq 2 miles were more than enough if the SkyWest was ready for immediate departure. The real error here was not cancelling the takeoff clearance once the Air Shuttle went around.
@@lloydfeng5716 Telling them to abort their takeoff while they’re on the roll is a really dramatic escalation, a last resort, and might not even solve the problem if they’re already past or approaching V1. Controllers are trained to not communicate with aircraft during the takeoff or landing rolls because of the possibility of distraction during a critical phase of flight. IMO the really bizarre decision was to send the Air Shuttle on a 270 heading which seems to parallel the SID that the Skywest was flying. Seems like a 90 heading would’ve just resolved it, but then again SOPs and LOAs exist for a reason too…
@@MiloToor If they were already on a takeoff roll at the time that the Air Shuttle went around at a 2-mile final, it would not have been a close call.
@@coorsbanq The fault is primarily on the controller not issuing timely control instructions. But the SkyWest certainly lacked situational awareness by continuing their takeoff roll once the Air Shuttle declared a go around
I learned to fly here-WHP, BUR, and VNY. Not only congested, overlapping airspace, but pinched by nearby, legit terrain. Landing 33 at BUR is rare and usually means the winds are not pleasant. The 33 traffic patterns are not part of the “muscle/mental memory,” and the approach to 33 feels like it’s happening quickly (descent over/along a ridge). Add similar call-signs into the mix, Part 91 traffic, blocked transmissions… Controller was definitely losing it. Very difficult situation for everyone. I thought Mesa did a good job staying calm and vigilant-which is a *must* when landing BUR on any day.
Usual pattern at Burbank is to takeoff on 19 and land on 08. Due to the stable SoCal climate, that happens 95+% of the time. The reversed operation happened due to the unusual weather we had recently. I am sure that the pilots had their hands full with the gusty winds as well.
Until this video, I did not realize the role that 47C played and how close it came to the 2 other aircraft. I am glad everyone came through safely. Scary stuff.
I haven't flown much in Socal, but fly in the SF Bay Area a lot, which also has stable weather 95% of the time. When things are on reverse flow, ATC and pilots screw up constantly.
I'm hyper vigilant now when the patterns are reversed after being nearly vectored into traffic several times when ATC messed up their rights/lefts and a few minor left/right errors of my own. Flipping the mental picture used 95% of the time is a challenge.
FYI Burbank doesn’t have a runway 19, maybe you meant 15?
@@flyerdon3116 yes, my mistake
That controller went "Tilt" for a few minutes.
Overwhelmed on the edge of panic.
Yup. You can tell by her shift in tone that she realized what a mess was on hand. I don't know a lot about this person, so I don't want to pass harsh judgement, but I feel she lost control of the situation and let it get out of hand easily.
Deer in the headlight moment
I hope is lack of training and/or experience. And I wish that the system is capable of taking this event and learning something from it.
Seen my share of these videos from VASAviation (great work again, as always!), but this is one of the worst I've seen in terms of controllers losing control. The conflict was already obvious very close to the start of this video: no way 47C would have landed ahead of ASH5826 as apparently planned, and ASH5826 being sent to continue with SKW5326 already sitting on the runway. Looks to me like very poor planning of that pattern, mostly by underestimating just how slow 47C was going to be on final and perhaps also influenced by the otherwise not observable Police 100.
The decision in the end, to break off 47C's approach and send them around to land behind ASH, was the right one, it was just made about a minute too late for it to still matter to avoid the situation. Under the pressure that caused, there were then a bunch of potentially fatal errors: Go-around aircraft to continue runway heading when another is already taking off and going to climb into that same path, then two mix-ups of left/right that would send aircraft into further conflict.
As a controller, recently I've been getting a lot more pilots clarifying if they are clear to land when they hear other aircraft are going to arrive/depart before them. Hopefully these events don't completely diminish pilot/ public trust in ATC.
It is a real bug bear of mine, Clearance should not be given until they have the runway CLEAR to land for them, (arm chair pilot)
But that's good, that means pilots are paying more attention now and in case ATC makes a mistake, it'll be a minor incident.
@LiamRey I understand this reasoning but it's really not practical at large airports. We have rules about when we can anticipate separation.
@Goldboy Rather than clearing an aircraft to land in expectation of a clear runway for them, US ATC should do what ATC everywhere else does. '(Aircraft) continue approach for (runway), expect late clearance.'
@@goldboy3505 - not sure how they compare., but Gatwick, and Heathrow manage it. and they are busy all day long. and gatters has a single runway.
Maybe it goes back as far as the CFMU (Central Management Flow Unit), and flow rates/allocation of planes per hour per sector, if a sector is overloaded everyone gets a delay to depart slot with a CTOT (Cleared to take off time) , so they arrive at the correct time.
If i am not mistaken, the US, has no such system, and just throws everything up, and deals with it later
Could this be why incidents, in the USA appear to me more frequent than in Europe. ?
And this is how one gets remedial training. Good learning experience here
"Remedial" training implies that there was some form of initial training.
@@iflyuwalk Your comment implies some air traffic controllers do not receive any initial training, which is absurd.
It really seems like we’re pushing our systems to the brink and it’d hard to imagine this not eventually ending very, very badly :-/
Couldnt agree more. The last incident sounded like another snotty little fuck that didnt need to be anywhere near a tower
@@williamsmith9948 If you really think the FAA cares that much about diversity over test results you're truly stupid
@@williamsmith9948 Bullseye!
Speaking as a GA Flight Instructor... It's not the system. This woman is a complete idiot who doesn't even know her left from her right.
I hope they did a piss test on her!
That’s not a factor here. She’s not even busy.
Poor 47 Charlie, left out there flying around by himself until he finally called in to get some direction. Poor controller was having a rough day, getting left and right mixed up....twice. Glad everyone made it to the ground in one piece.
I was screaming "no! no!" as she directed the two planes together. Anyone else notice a different voice from the tower at the end? I think the supervisor took over....
Should have happened a lot earlier... (if that would be possible at all)
The first controller is pretty senior and known locally as being abrasive. The second one is the nicest you'll ever talk to.
I can tell you as a controller, in almost every facility nationwide, the supervisors are no longer required to be facility rated. Meaning they are managing the controllers working sectors they themselves aren’t certified on. Some supervisors may be in a control tower like this with no tower experience. There is a major breakdown in the system. The FAA is hiring people who can barley put a sentence together. Something bad is going to happen.
Rumour has it that N47C is still circling the airport, too afraid to land with these ATC’s. 😅
What a Cluster by ATC.
That act lady is not in control of the situation! SCARY!
Lining up one while another is turning a relatively short final happens a lot but not with another on final with hold short instructions to a crossing runway. I felt the hair on the back of my neck stand up when she set that up. Combine that with bad radios, GA traffic calling, and an unusual pattern and you’re asking for a problem. You see they realized it when a different controller took over. Either she was relieved or took a break.
ATC got overwhelmed.
This is an opportunity to revise training, selection and staffing.
I read a lot of the comments here concerning the 33/26 operation being rare. It's not rare, it's SEASONAL; as is VNY 34 Ops, CNO/ONT 8 Ops, SNA 2 Ops, LGB 12/8, PSP 13 TOA 11, SMO 3, LAX east traffic etc.
Fall and winter weather in SoCal makes the ATC operation highly complex due to airspace reconfiguration for the TRACON controllers in addition to reversed departure and arrival procedures for tower controllers. Furthermore when the wind shifts & flows the way it does in the San Fernando Valley, San Gabriel/Santa Monica Mountains, and Inland Empire areas it can become extremely difficult and dangerous for airmen to fly through at times.
This particular situation however is a total breakdown of practical air traffic concept application, situational awareness, and an inability to properly separate air aircraft including a lack of recovery after a loss of separation- further compounded by issuing erroneous headings and frequency instructions to ASH and traffic pattern instructions to the Cirrus.
No doubt a better job could have been done and it's a shame that such a basic sequence of aircraft turned into this. I would hope that the controller will receive some remedial training and that operational oversight is addressed at that facility.
After years of flying into and out of Burbank, I understand the tough time the controller was having. The airport is almost surrounded by high terrain to the north and to the south. On a good day, it can be a challenge, especially when 26 and 33 are in use.
Zero excuse. She made several bad calls and then became flustered and started making further bad calls because of that panic. She needs to be removed as a controller. She simply isn't up to the task.
I humbly and respectfully disagree because the controller is demonstrating a lapse in basic logic. This calls for a drug test because I can't see any other logical explanation for being this "out of it".
I don't see how there could be any amount of terrain, traffic or stress that excuses a controller confusing left and right TWICE DURING A TCAS RA resolution!!!! ... or landing a passenger aircraft on top of another one (while you have a Cirrus fly 600' over the top of ASH5826 because it was forced to execute a go-around instead of landing on top of Skywest).
She also didn't know which direction of runways she was using when she announced the new ATIS.
She also left 47C on a final to the runway intersecting the one she has TWO commercial passenger aircraft about to operate on until THE LAST SECOND when she gave 47C the instruction to "turn base for" a runway he wasn't even expecting or thinking about when what she really required was an INSTANT turn away from Rwy 33 - and she should have given the pilot that instant turn, like: "47C, go-around and make an immediate right (270-degree turn) to a right downwind to 33, report the final traffic in sight/OR I'll call your base".
If this woman is "rehired" instead of being fired because of the Controller's Union, then the flying public should be TERRIFIED.
If she is not fired for not knowing basic logic (like left vs. right), and for trying to turn two airplanes executing TCAS RA avoidance maneuvers INTO EACH OTHER then the flying public should all get their wills in order, because it would be an indication of a nationwide FAA effort to protect the "careers" of controllers who should be flipping hamburgers at McDonalds.
@@StratMatt777 At the rate everyone is calling for controllers to be fired, we're not going to have any controllers left. ATC is already understaffed and over worked as it is, what would you suggest as a solution to the problem, other than just firing people?
Firing controllers for mixing up left/right (even though she corrected immediately) is ignoring the root issue. This really sounds like a case of being overworked. And with the staffing issues, this isn't surprising.
They can put that on the passengers’ tombstones next time: “She Had a Bad Day”
Wow! She was so lost!
Shocking that the controller would issue instructions immediately after one pilot advised that he was in the middle of a TCAS RA!
i don't understand how, even after such a tight arrival/departure sequence, you still tell the air shuttle to fly rwy heading with the skw underneath. at least offset 15deg, sheesh. regardless, good work on both parties avoiding disaster though.
And then tell one plane to turn left and the other one to follow departure which apparently also goes left?! What the heck...
mountains in the area
Seems weird that an aircraft was cleared for takeoff and another cleared to land on the same runway immediately after. I’ve landed close behind a plane taking off a few times, but in all cases it was “expect late clearance” until the runway was actually clear.
In brighter news, weather was finally good today and I did my first solo this morning 😊
Proficiat!
No doubt this incident shows you why it is so important to listen to everything on frequency and always be creating a 3D image in your mind where all the other aircraft are on frequency. While flying as a CFI in a 172 years ago I trusted a controller and ended up 25' behind the tail of a Diamond DA40 as it descended on top of me as it came down the ILS glideslope while I was in level flight on a long VFR final. If I hadn't told my student to slow down a bit for turbulence to get down to maneuvering speed I wouldn't be here right now.
I realized afterwards that if I had thought about it (instead of being overly focused on instructing as a brand new CFI), I would have realized that I had, much earlier, heard him clear that DA40 for the ILS approach to 16R when he was WAY up north. It's dumb luck or divine intervention that I am here to be able to tell you this.
Congrats on the solo! Now you start learning!
Congrats!
@@lipslide101Congratulations! Best day ever, isn't it?:)
good thing the departing aircraft didnt need to abort takeoff!
This is happening way too often. Unless it gets addressed and fixed, the inevitable will tragically happen.
Have them take internships in London or Amsterdam
This girl shouldn’t be controlling at any airport until she learns which way North is, what a disaster.
Retired ATCS.
OH MY GOSH. I was about to throw up.
ReTrain!
Damn!
Wow.
Scary!
I was tower and TRACON rated at BUR, I knew at 1:10 this was going to be a bad day at the office for her.
The sad thing is, the separation issue (with landing traffic on crossing runways) is already clear at 0:30, in time for it to be solved to avoid everything else that happened: 47C breaking off to enter a pattern for 33, SKW to expedite take-off and then ASH to land before 47C. Essentially the solution the controller also took, only executed a minute later where it didn't work out anymore.
@@timschols4834 She wasn't clear enough either, 47C needed to be told to turn left immediately to 150, or even further round to get more space.
Please tell us that the Controller's Union will not prevent this woman from being fired. For God's sake please tell us that.
Is there a reason the controller gave the Air Shuttle a 270 heading-which seems to parallel the SID the Skywest was flying-rather than, say, a 90 heading? A right turn would’ve dodged the deal (ironically, if she hadn’t corrected herself and let them fly a right turn to heading 270 that probably would’ve been fine too). I imagine 270 heading at 4000 is SOP or stated in an LOA somewhere, but surely those rules can be bent for extraordinary circumstances?
@@MiloToor I guess the controller is having the mindset of the usual pattern (runway 08 and 15 in use), and the 270 heading is what you would give to a jetliner when they go around on runway 08?
Landing 33 is a rare event at BUR. The left/right confusion is probably due to this. Not dissimilar to Eva air that took off from LAX a few years ago and almost flew into Mt. Wilson. LAX was turned around that night too.
Both controllers were female too. Not very good with directions and spatial orientation.
@@kewkabe Horrible stereotypes are dangerous. Nothing about your statement is okay. Studies prove there is not merit to that claim but that the level of skill is associated with other factors like exposure to STEM topics etc. Which means some may need more training to make up for diminished exposure to the skillsets.
Summary: Despite popular belief, men are not better (or worse) than women at spatial cognition tasks. However, men and women approach mental rotational tasks in different ways.
Source: University of Limerick
Men are not better than women at spatial cognition - such as map reading - is the principal finding from ground-breaking work by researchers at Lero, the Science Foundation Ireland Research Centre for Software, hosted at University of Limerick (UL), Ireland.
Employing cutting-edge eye-tracking technology researchers Dr Mark Campbell and Dr Adam Toth of the Lero Esports Science Research Lab at UL found that there is no male advantage in mental rotation abilities associated with spatial cognition competences.
Dr Campbell said the skill of spatial cognition or our ability to navigate our environment has been the battleground for almost 40 years for researchers claiming that males have a distinct performance advantage on tests of spatial cognition, notably the mental rotations test.
Studying the cognitive proficiency of individuals and gamers is a key aim of the Lero Esports Science Research Lab which opened in 2019 and is the first of its kind in Ireland.
“Better performance on these tests is strongly associated with higher IQ and better performance in STEM (Science Technology Engineering and Maths) subjects in schools and colleges,” Dr Campbell explained.
Dr Toth sums up the results: “So males are better than females? Well no, actually. Our study found that there is no male advantage in mental rotation abilities. By lengthening the time allowed to complete the test, the male performance advantage diminished entirely suggesting that the so-called sex difference in mental rotation is simply not there or may be explained by other factors.”
@@kewkabe That is an individual aptitude characteristic that is not sex linked. The problem lies with quotas--taking people without the aptitude to meet an arbitrary number. There lies the graveyard.
@@kristencart1622 Spatial processing is sex linked -- males evolved to find their way back through the jungle after the daily hunt, while women in the tribe didn't need that ability. Which is why female controllers who legitimately made it through training and certification are disproportionately lesbian (male-brained). I've seen it in every facility. But you're right there are quotas where females without spatial ability are promoted to keep the numbers. I'd agree this controller is an example of that.
Many comments are spot on. One thing I noticed is the controller did nothing to separate the two aircraft once the AirShuttle started his go around. She actually made it worse. She told AirShuttle to fly runway heading and then told them to turn left heading 270. If you look at the SID, standard instrument departure, that Skywest was flying it did exactly the same thing, runway heading and then a left turn heading 270. This was all on the controller but the Captain on Skywest seemed pretty oblivious to what was happening and what could have happened. Burbank is in the middle of some very busy airspace. I enjoyed flying there but you really have to be listening to the radio and have your head on a swivel both on the ground and in the air.
Woof. That was scary.
Can't wait to see what 74 Gear has to say about this one
Who could have thought that it is not a good idea to clear someone to land before the runway is clear
Isn't that done all the time? Clearances are given at quite a distance, and as far as I know it is no more of a clearance than it can be taken away?
It would probably bring air traffic to a halt otherwise.
Happens all the time. Not a problem when the incoming is 3 miles out and the traffic on the runway is told to expedite. I've also been cleared to land #4 (3 planes landing in front of me). Again not a problem with good situational awareness and good coordination.
@@rosscomer Happens all the time *in the United States* . Everywhere else you only get a landing clearance once it is assured that the runway will be clear. US need to update their procedures or a terrible accident will happen at some point.
"Punch it!" -- "2:22" movie
@@hotlavatube i was hoping someone would say this lol
she is totally unqualified to be managing that airspace.
I'm supposed to fly in the next month and I've never felt so unsafe. Too many incursions happening lately. It's sad because I love flying!
I'd bet money, you'll be fine.
Don’t worry. Over 100,000 flights per day worldwide……. These types incidents are less than .00003%. You’ll be fine. It used to happen a lot more often, we just didn’t have the Internet so we didn’t know about it. It’s safer now than it ever has been
There are 5000 airplanes in the air above the USA right now. Only two people have died in an airplane crash in the USA since 2009. It is still way safer to fly than it is to drive, even to the store on the corner.
@@elizabeth5985 " Only two people have died in an airplane crash in the USA since 2009. " This 100% false.
@@russellbynum2414 They likely mean part 121, which I thought was only one in the past 14 years.
If anybody cares for an analysis from a European controller, here you go:
The initial plan wasn't bad actually: Police helicopter cleared to land runway 26 and instructed to hold short of runway 33, so the SKW5326 would be able to depart shortly afterwards. Quite optimistic considering ASH5826 was on maybe 4.5 miles final then, but not impossible.
Of course then the helicopter would be blocking runway 26 until the SKW is airborne and the ASH has landed and passed the runway intersection, which leaves no space for N1547C. That should have been obvious to the controller way earlier. Cancelling N1547C's approach was the only logical decision, but the decision where to put it was the main factor leading to all conflicts afterwards. Easiest solution: Cancel approach, orbit right immediately. Do I want to have a VFR traffic orbiting 1.5 miles east of the runway? Not really, but at least he's in a position where he can be seen by others. Immediate take-off clearance for the SKW, traffic information for the ASH on both orbiting VFR and departing IFR traffic. That would still have given the option to either issue a late landing clearance or to decide on a go-around with an early visual left turn to stay clear of the departing traffic.
The controller decided to instruct N47C to go around, which usually means that they stop descending and continue flying towards the runway preventing SKW from departing runway 33. So turning them away was absolutely fine. Decision making again: Do I prefer to give them a right turn parallel to the runway and parallel to the departing traffic or do I instruct a left turn opposite to a descending arriving traffic? Both not great options, she decided to do the latter, which is... kind of alright considering that there is terrain in the north-eastern part of the airspace.
"Go around and turn base for runway 33" means: Continue towards runway 26, overfly the threshold and the runway intersection and then turn left onto the downwind, try to spot the arriving airliner and turn behind afterwards, again being in the way for everybody else. At this point basically everything was already too tight and in my opinion the only correct decision would be a go-around for both N47C and ASH5826.
"N47C, start your crosswind turn now please" didn't make sense. There is no crosswind before overflying the runway threshold. I guess what she really wanted to instruct was an immediate left turn for a right-hand downwind runway 33. Then N47C was exactly above both runways, SKW5326 cleared for take-off out of pure despair and ASH5826 on 2 miles final cleared to land with the runway still occupied and a VFR traffic turning opposite direction. Of course then the pilot of ASH5826 decided to go around. Obviously the controller was completely overwhelmed, which lead to her giving no traffic information at all and confusing turn directions multiple times.
Later ASH5826 reported that he didn't have the departure in sight and was following a TCAS RA. One of the essential things air traffic controllers learn is that they shall not give any instruction to an aircraft following an RA. Under no circumstances at all. And then... classic frequency separation by transferring one aircraft to another controller with 300ft and less than a mile to another aircraft...
Of course crossing runway operations are a main factor in adding complexity in air traffic control. This example shows how easily an incomplete traffic picture, insufficient pre-planning and rather unfortunate decision-making can easily lead to very dangerous situations and how difficult it actually is to recover from these. I hope this incident will be reviewed thoroughly and used for properly re-training controllers. Traffic information and reactions on TCAS RA are essentials in air traffic control and must be trained and reviewed on a regular basis.
Thank you for your amazing perspective!
How about, "47C, go-around, make a right 270 turn to join right downwind for Rwy 33, I'll call your base"?
I just don't understand why she left 47C on a final to a runway that intersected a runway about to be used by two commercial passenger aircraft.
And then since she failed to crash Mesa and Skywest together on the runway, she tried again by trying to turn Mesa RIGHT into the Mesa airplane that it's TCAS RA was instructing it to avoid. This is TERRIFYING.
Trying to squeeze in a slower GA and copter on 26 buggered any chance she had at good spacing for the jets on 33.
@Robert Butsch... She pulled that 270* heading out of the clouds, when she realised that "aluminium showers" were developing!
The aluminum showers wouldn’t be a potential development if she hadn’t turned ASH5826 toward Skywest.
She should not be in the position she is in. She’s confused, guiding multiple planes towards each other, and getting turns dyslexic.. Zero situational awareness in this incident.
Controller didn't know right from left. This was a progressive cluster f--k.
Great work as always. Thanks!
holy shit I'm pretty sure given that tower response that at 2:18 ASH5826 was asking for confirmation about the landing clearance, too
this was quite an experience to watch...
That ATC was absolutely struggling.
Scary!
"Turn right . . . no, my right, your left!"
Gave a clearance after the pilot says he’s responding to an RA… that’s a big no bueno.
Pilot: ATC when you have a moment I have a phone number for you to write down and call.
ATC: Im ready.
I was on with Cleveland Center yesterday. Complete mess up of aircraft heading north to YYZ. The quality of controllers is tanking fast.
This is what you get when hiring for diversity, not capability.
The change was in 2015 I think to switch from a competency test (favored folks going through basically ATC school) to a biographic / psychometric test to broaden things out. ua-cam.com/video/UrXIrwxzCB8/v-deo.html
@@randominternet5586 Diverstiy, Inclusion, Equity = DIE
@@randominternet5586 All of those hires had to pass the same skills testing and academy as those before and after them.
That lady needs a holiday for sure and a reassessment to be safe... All is well that ends well but you can not take these things lightly.
the pilot report of this incident was included in the September 2023 issue of the ASRS Callback newsletter, under the heading "Conflicts and Confusion"
The similar call signs might have added to the confusion.
This is becoming eerily frequent.
Can’t discuss why though.
Controller made about 6 mistakes in 25 seconds
47 Charlie, no I do not want to land, I want to get the hell out of here and land somewhere else
So. Many. Issues. In just one sequence.
Left/Right confusion MULTIPLE times.
Tried to shoot a VFR SR22 down in front of two IFR aircraft on a crossing runway.
Left crosswind? That would face him into final for 33 anyway - luckily 47C flew through before turning cross.
Then TCAS RA and she incorrectly tells the pilot to turn right? Shouldn't give an instruction against an RA anyway, that's exactly what caused Uberlingen.
Unluckily blocked transmissions multiple times - luckily the pilots of SKW5326 surmised that "...33, clear for takeoff" meant them, but it was still way too tight.
Definitely needs to be retrained. She's need a sign in front of her for left and right...wow
That next huge crash is coming...
I hope you are wrong, but eh, you are not wrong
I wonder how much the similar flight numbers contributed. 5326 vs 5826 is pretty easy to misread or mash together. You hear other controllers warn pilots if there’s a similar call sign on frequency.
Yikes! Just no sense in pushing it. Our motto in our tower is, why squeeze when you can breeze.
She may of got confused by the callsigns xxx5326 and the xxx5826 , I could get screwed up on that too!
Then ehe was off track from there for the situation.
No, she rolled the dice, hoping to get the departure out, and she hot crapped out!
So is the 270 heading Tower gave to ASH5826 part of the missed approach procedure for 33 or did the controller improvise that?
There's a big mountain to the north and east of BUR so there is really no other place to go.
@@mapolinski So the 270 heading at that point in the go-around is part of the missed approach procedure?
@@robertbutsch1802 I don’t know
@@robertbutsch1802 most towers don't give published missed on go arounds and visual approaches don't have a missed approach. They typically have coordinated go around procedures with Tracon or coordinate real time.
@@morganghettiAh right. The procedure on the plate would be for precision approaches. Thanks.
Almost Every time I fly into Phoenix I get an RA almost every time. I don’t know what’s going on with the controllers there.
Came in for her next shift, and coworkers had put LEFT --- RIGHT stickers in front of her console...
WOW
Damn, how many times can one mix up left and right?
Another!?! Geeze! What is going on. Who is getting hired right now!?! ATC amd the FAA AMD DoT needs to get on this nonsense before it actually gets worse
Hard for anyone to keep track of all those planes. At one point they seem to confuse 5326 and 5826, which is an easy mistake if you are a bit flustered and maybe need a glasses upgrade.
I didn't think Burbank used runway 26 for landings. It's very close to the mountains. Is it only for small aircraft?
Probably only for VFR arrivals or something like that
26 can be assigned by SoCal TRACON at the pilot's request after coordination with the tower, or directly by the tower. Had USC (Starcheck Lear Jet) request 26 all the time. But you are right, there is a mountain on pretty short final in the way.
how many "deals" was that in a few minutes..geeze. I hope we are looking hard at fatigue and training issues for ATC.
I see this shit all the time where i work too. People think it's a joke when they don't know their left's and right's but it's shit like this where it actually makes a huge difference... shame on this situationally unaware controller.
Affirmative.
What’s happening with ATC? This is becoming a common theme.
Controller needs 12 hours of hokey pokey before returning to service.
😂😂😂😂😂😂
Only 3 of us got that so far, and to be fair, it took me 5 seconds of thinking to get it. Well played!
@@robertmog4336 that's what it's all about!
@@1972challenger Whoever you are, we grew up next door to each other, LOLOL!
@@robertmog4336 I maxxed out the dad jokes on this post
Well all of those people can rest assured that at least ATC has some diversity. That's far more important than having competent controllers and ensuring people don't die
I flew out of KBUR for 4 years it was a 2 person tower then and they never used both runways at the same time back then also when Lockheed left they should have built a new terminal over there because the gates are way too close to both runways. When the controller yawned at the beginning of the recording I knew it was going to be a hairy replay.