the duke is on an upwind for 30r, the controller wants him yo make a left crosswind turn for a left downwind? hell I was confused. then the controller changes the turns and downwind. I’d take the number and report the controller as well he caused as much confusion as the pilot
Controller is a mess... left turn for left downwind.. then suddently it is right downwind... then.. ships pilot to departure for resequence but no one else is in the pattern.... ugh! Then - gives 55E left downwind.. but no.. right downwind... I'd be flying UPWIND to a different airport!!
Pretty sure he was supposed to go left, he went right, then went so far right that he was instructed to keep going because he crossed over the airport.
Yeah, there was a lot of right, left, right. Once instructions started to get convoluted like that, the ATC should have basically reset and given clear, complete direction, which they did at least in part with "we're changing the downwind." Of course, if I were a pilot and felt instructions were unclear, I would've asked for more clarity--im the one in the sardine can, I can't just guess what instructions are correct if I'm confused.
It looks like the pilot was making a right downwind turn by mistake and by the time he acknowledged the tower, it seems like tower said "screw it" and changed it to a left downwind, from the original right downwind. I agree that it's confusing, but the pilot forgot his left from right to start things off.
It looks like the pilot setup for a right downwind and didn't confirm the original call, then the controller says left downwind and switches to right downwind. He should have confirmed and followed the original call but the controller made things very confusing by telling him to switch the traffic pattern right after. Seems the fault is shared with both sides.
No excuse. He got sent back for resequencing and when he came back he was still all over the place with his calls, and damn new over flew the approach. It's a clear cut case of a misalignment of the flight control actuator being behind an aircraft that has about as much power as some small jets. The Beech Duke is a VERY high performance airplane, and this guy was behind it the whole time.
Probably because they gave an instruction, and the pilot did the opposite. Once the pilot didn't comply, the same command wouldn't apply or be safe, so ATC needed to issue a new one.
6:30 what? He's number 2, hasn't been told which traffic he's following, and no one has landed before him? How did he know he was supposed to turn base yet? Theres like 4 planes here, how is the tower so far behind what everyone is doing?
I sooo hope the pilot sees the comments and feels vindicated. Sure, he didn't do a perfect job. But his communication and tone (polite and patient) were all in check, and his mishaps could have EASILY been compensated for smoothly if the tower had been on top of things.
Up until the two minute mark the first tower controller was given confusing instructions. “Left turn for a right downwind,” “left turn for a left downwind” and then he finally settled on “right turn for a right down wind” and claimed we’re changing the approach instead of “I screwed up.” The pilot was definitely confused and not on his game. He should’ve right away asked for clarification regarding tower instructions that did not make sense. Tower then gave him a vector which took him further away from the field that he did not have in sight. Then the tower got irritated and gave him back to departure. Definitely some pilot gaps, but equal or more controller gaps.
First off the Duke was on an IFR flight plan and he was supposed to make a straight in approach to 30R. Other training traffic can do 360 and land after the Duke had landed. It makes no sense to sequence a complex twin in a tight pattern traffic with all the slow airplanes. My airport has jets, turbine, and slow trainers. These heavies are always on rnav and we only had to do a couple of 360 to clear. What the controller did was to increase the confusion and added to the danger of a collision between a slow trainer and a fast twin. Plus the pilot in the twin doesn’t have the best visibility outside compare to the small Cessna. The controller needs retraining before he kills somebody
There is no IFR approach onto 30R, long straight-ins conflict with LAS airspace. If you can't fly a basic VFR pattern in a plane, you really shouldn't be in the air with it. No idea why everyone's defending this pilot that doesn't seem to understand left vs. right.
Pretty sure its is 2 different controllers and maybe she headed that off cause she knew she wouldn't have to then deal with it since the colleague was coming on soon, unless I'm mistaken but the voices at the beginning part as opposed to the ending part are a fair bit different. It isn't as clear on if it might've been on the ground as well unless I'm mistaken on that part but its possible he missed the hold at H call. Unless I'm mistaken.
This controller has been there a long time and is usually very good. It sounds like he may have been getting chirped at by another person in the tower as well. Likely just a bad day. I'm sure pilot will be fine.
There's a reason they very specifically say "POSSIBLE pilot deviation". It means they're going to go back and listen to what happened, hash it out with the pilot, and MAYBE they'll report it. But in a situation as mild as this, I highly doubt it would go anywhere past the phone call.
If the controller gives you a pilot deviation, they are also submitting a report. FSDO will likely see it and take action if they deem appropriate. ATC is not the sky police, It's up to the investigators to determine any action to move forward with.
Controller and pilot here. This one is a little hard to lay blame kn, so ill blame both. Left downwind for 30R. When youre a controller and looking at a screen, this doesnt seem like a difficult instruction to follow. To a pilot who has to picture this in their head, it seems wrong, unless the pilot has done it before or is familiar with the local area. However, this is a valid instruction that ATC can issue. I think the controller could have used different voice inflections to make the instruction easier for pilots to follow. Stepping on the pilot. This controller is so guiilty of this. The controller is in charge of the airspace, and hes working hard and fast. Sadly, this happens a lot to controllers. They know but sometimes forget when theh get angry or panicky, but pilots cannot trabsmit and hear at the same time. This situation could have been resolved much quicker if the controller waited for the pilot to unkey before trying to correct him. I saw someone here mention the controller for being bad for sending the pilot back to approach when the oattern was clear. ATC was right on this one. That pilot was flying IFR and issued a visual approach. That means that while tower can extend downwinds and turn bases, they dont have absolute control of that aircraft. A tower controller sets the landing sequence, but not the arrival sequence. A tower controller cannot, without approval from the approach controller, vector and clear the aircraft for an approach. They especially cannot do this if they are not a RADAR qualified controller. I'm fairly certain VGT is a Class D tower, and therefore has no instrument control of aircraft.
What do you make of the initial positioning of Duke 500 when he calls visual 30R? Do you think approach would have intended for him to fly directly at midfield over the approach end and assume the tower would put him in the pattern? Or was he supposed to be on a straight-in already?
@@bjg09e now I don't work VGT, so I'm doing a lot of assuming here. But I think there might be a letter of agreement on file where approach sends them over the airport at 4000' or so, then it's towers discretion whether they enter left or right downwind. I say this because this Duke is direct the center of the airport at 4000' going 200 knots (seems very fast to me, but I never flew a Duke). There's no way that was intended to be a straight in. I also know that Harry Reed is very close by, and with the Bravo, VGT probably has a very limited shelf to maneuver aircraft.
Neither of these controllers know their lefts from rights... Dangerous. Reason for the extended downwind on the last approach was most likely due to the aircraft needing time to descend. Controller never told him when to turn base when clearing them to land. Awful job controlling here. Shouldn't be the pilot's fault at all.
@@waholoopesorry74The controller was super confusing. But agreed that once you are cleared to land, you maneuver the aircraft as necessary to land from your current position. If ATC needs you to do something otherwise, they’ll let you know. Definitely no obligation for a pilot to wait for ATC to call base unless instructed as such.
N60500, please turn spinward for the updownwind approach. Spinward, I said spinward. What are you doing? OK, now anti-clockwise. Nevermind, just hold up your hands and see which one makes an "L" or something.
To be fair, becoming disoriented is quite easy, especially at airports with multiple runways, and then you hear an instruction, make a left turn for right downwind runway three zero right, no, make it a right turn for left downwind three zero right.
pilot got behind the aircraft. The few times tower confused left and right messed him up even further. Tower got behind the traffic and by the end had right and left totally screwed up.
The guy is trying to fly an aeroplane without dying and ATC changes the direction of the pattern (which changes the side of the runway you approach from) without telling anyone! Pilot is also having trouble making visual contact with the airport, which is only going to increase the pressure. In the Swiss cheese model, this ATC bought the cheese, served it up, and then changed which room it's being served in without telling us
I have to defend the pilot here. ATC confused me, sitting on my deck. I understood “left” turn for downwind, then “right turn downwind”, then LEFT turn for downwind” for 30R. THEN, he said both to another aircraft. Not a good controller.
This was a mess, complicated unnecessarily by the first Controller. The guy was clearly lost, Controller made it worse. ATC is usually on game, but this dude was def problematic. Pilot was a mess, likely overwhelmed with an airplane that is too much for him. Scary.
A Duke driver needs to be more on it, but the controller went down the tubes once the Duke starting going the wrong way. Approach really did them no favors setting up a big, fast airplane like a Duke in that way.
That controller needs to familiarize himself with the term "upspeak/uptalk" and quit doing it at the end of every word... he probably thinks it sounds pleasant and cheerful but, it also sounds like he doesn't know wtf he's talking about.
Exactly what I was saying to myself listening to this. It's nearly impossible for me to take anyone seriously when they constantly use that "up speak" bullshit while making statements. It's a completely asinine fad that should have ended ten years ago. Same with the use of "SO" to begin a sentence. Idiots!
tbh I’d like to hear the comms before tower handoff the first time. guy was on about a 300 heading, was he expecting straight in? right down wind? the turn left to enter a left downwind for a runway that is to your right and on the right side of another runway is awkward to say the least. “turn left crosswind” or “turn left heading 210 vectors for downwind” would have probably been more clear
so yeah after a 5th watch he was cleared for a left turn into a left downwind with the runway behind him and to the right. controller called for a 180 course reversal. he should have given an unable and continued into the right downwind which makes a hell of a lot more sense
This is terrible work by ATC- they got the guy turning all over the place with 3 other airplanes in the pattern. I mean just extend the guy on a right downwind and call his base and this entire situation is nothing. Shameful job to give him a number to call. ATC needs to do better.
For everyone saying he got a Brasher and number to call for not following directions I think is missing that he likely busted the bravo airspace and that was why he got the number
@@minutiesabotage sure you can. His clearance took him into the delta and he was no longer cleared in bravo airspace once he was handed to tower and entered the delta
I was wondering the same thing. Did he miss the turn for left downwind so ATC changed it to a right downwind rather than trying to bring him back around? Very confusing.
I had to listen again. The controller when the aircraft was on the upwind, told them to plan for a LEFT downwind runway 30R. The aircraft then started to turn RIGHT. Since the aircraft was so far to the RIGHT, the controller then changed them to a RIGHT downwind for runway 30R. The transmission was then blocked and we're then hearing the controller end with "LEFT downwind 30R". Not sure who the controller was addressing, since the transmission was blocked. The controller comes over the radio and tells the aircraft a suggested heading and that they are CHANGING them to a RIGHT downwind 30R. The confusing part is being told "number 2"" for landing but not getting a traffic report or told when to turn base.
This is a parallel ga airport. Which is to say, the most busy, and therefore the most susceptible to mid air collisions on the base to final. Pilots should have game or land elsewhere. Tower needs to hand out yellow slips liberally at these airports, its crucial. 1. Know how to enter a pattern at a 45. 2. Know local landmarks or request vectors immediately if unfamiliar. Don't fake it till you make it at parallel runways. Local controllers are under pressure to improve separation. They don't want to be blamed for your screw up, so they will yellow card. Sight the runway with approach. Tower doesn't have time to babysit your lost ass.
I had a pilot deviation call 2 years ago at north vegas. I was flying left seat in a Falcon 900,EX, descending out of 12,000 as instructed for 5000. Airspeed was spot on at 180. It was an IFR to VFR landing, clear day and lots of small airplane traffic. Out TCAS was lit up like the 4th of July. As I was handed over to the tower, they instructed for us to 30L, right downwind and maintain 4500 for an extended. Literally 2 miles past the airport, we were given the call for an expedited turn to base and short final. I replied unable. We were configured, but in my judgement to close to final path . I continued my extended downwind, zero traffic ahead of us. TCAS was clear. Upon a series of 360s, five miles out we got the clearance for final. Upon a normal, safe landing without throwing our px around or fighter jet bank angles, we landed. I got the call tower number. After a long discussion, thankfully it was acknowledged that there was no deviation and in addition the unable call was appropriate. Fly safe, you are the pilot in command. The moment you are uncomfortable with tower commands, make a command decision followed by the simple word unable.
Non pilot here, but follower of the channel.... Duke 500 went right when instructed left , ok.. had the controller, said something like, ok that's not what I asked you to do but continue right downwind, and we'll sort it out. It would have given the pilot a few seconds to realise their mistake and the ATC the chance to evaluate what else was in the immediate area around an aircraft that the ATC hadn't planned on being where it was. Yes that's armchair quarterbacking, but the ATC panic of having Duke turn left downwind when it was so far into the right turn made matters worse and ore confusing , especially when he did realise that actually continuing the right downwind was the best option. Can't comment on the handing off for re sequencing, But later on the ATC didn't help by calling clearances and where in the sequence without identifying who and where the aircraft in front was.... calling that you are number 2 but not to what number 1 is and where it is for the pilot to eyeball. For me that contributed to Duke running long before making final turn, as he hadn't been told what aircraft to start his turn in behind.
This ATC was messing up more than the pilot. Sure, the pilot was confused about what way to turn, but the ATC was so indecisive about what way to turn. He also gave an incorrect sequence at the end, 55E was following traffic on right base, not left base. I really hope the guy didn’t get a deviation
The initial comms were for a left turn to a left downwind for 30R. This was acknowledged and was going fine until 500 turned right instead of left. My guess is there was a bit of expectation bias to make right traffic for the right runway, as is practice at many airports with parallel runways. But it’s not an excuse; do what ATC says. After that ATC started to change things as well, maybe it was a slip-up or maybe it was intentional, but they didn’t really clarify for a bit, then definitely started slipping up again later as things got pear-shaped. So the pilot made the first error and ATC didn’t really help things with unclear instructions. It compounded from there.
The controller mixed up enough that I think a deviation is bullshit. Guy was responsive but confused and there were no crazy pilot created safety conflicts. I’ve been in unfamiliar territory and, particularly given they weren’t even offering approaches, I can see issues happening, and this was akin to missing your interstate exit ramp or something.
@@Grubbbee the bravo airspace is only for commercial aircraft. smaller aircraft are only allowed to fly into these airspaces either with permission or directly instructed to do so. If you bust into it, you potentially risk traffic obstruction with bigger aircrafts, that's why those airspaces are no-fly zones for smaller aircraft.
@@karlelias Yikes! Bravo requires communication and clearance. It has NOTHING to do with the size of the aircraft. They are certainly not "no fly zones" for "smaller" or "non-commercial" aircraft.
It seems to me that when a phone number has to be issued for a "possible pilot deviation" it ought to be done on a "less" busy frequency. So many times it would be easier (if the choice is between the local controller and the ground controller) to let the ground controller issue the phone number when the aircraft is not moving after it clears the runway.
Definitely not a fan when towers controlling dual runways have you make a left downwind for a right runway or vice versa. Each time I’ll ask them to confirm, especially if I’ve heard different things before.
I trained at KVGT for all my certs and this controller is usually on his A game. It can be very difficult to navigate here especially if you’re unfamiliar with the area
I fly out of a similarly configured airport and it can be confusing when told to make traffic in a direction different from the runway's position (left traffic for a right runway). Lots more happening in a twin, too, and a lot of traffic. The controller could have made things easier/clearer by calling their base turn and ensuring the correct airport was in sight. Also, just because it was a clear day doesn't make it easier. Sun could have caused issues.
I live directly under the approach to 12R/30L about 1/2 mile north of this airport. This airport gets it all. Cessna 172's, twins, biplanes, small private jets, (relatively) small freight jets, etc. Once during an airshow in Jean, NV we were in the pool and watched a B25 on approach! Beautiful airplane! We could count the rivets in the fuselage. We've also seen WWII war birds during airshows. I thought this controller was very confusing with this particular aircraft. At least one commenter said he was a good controller so perhaps he was having an off day. Sadly, his profession does not allow for bad days, though we all have them.
I looked up his inbound flight.. he flew in IFR. I mentioned this to my wife after showing her the video and she asked if he was still wearing his foggles and couldn’t see the airport? Lol
I fly at this airport regularly. It's a very busy airspace most of the the time and quite challenging for everyone involved. I can't be sure, but the pilot of N60500 most likely recieved the number for crossing back into the LAS bravo airspace during his downwind before turning base which was late, the approach ends of 30R and 30L are only about 1.5nm from the more restrictive Bravo airspace. His aircraft was somewhat large and fast for this runway, I'm glad he ultimately got down safely. Probably not a huge deal for the number, however. Crossing that bit of Bravo happens out there often because of the proximity, and LAS was aware of the operation...
Controller wanted him to do a left 180 but only said “left turn” …It’s confusing, especially in a busy environment when radio calls are stepped on. But the pilot should have asked/clarified if he’s confused… and he was.
Pilot error to start the chainreaction, however that left turn to left downwind mistake by the controller was just as bad. Then assuming the pilot is telepathic until he instructed that they were changing the downwind
This isn’t confusing people. Watch where that plane (N60500) is at. Tower wanted him to do a left 180 to rejoin the downwind. He basically was doing a straight in approach for the 30s when he first called up. Since the extras were landing he needed to space him out. If he would have listened to tower the first time there would have been zero issues. This isn’t confusing at all. The only thing tower didn’t do was say “amend your instructions” just keep the right turn going because that is what he decided to do anyway if you watch his ground track. So tower was just doing what made sense for the time. He crossed over the departure end of the runway when he wasn’t supposed to. If tower had him do the left turn like he was supposed to do initially he would cross it again, so tower made an on the fly decision and just had him keep going to the east for a right downwind instead of left downwind. Pilot didn’t know what runway was 30R or was confused about the initial left turn for left downwind. All pilots fault IMO.
What the hell is happening at that airport... I understand it's a busy delta, but I trained out of a similarly busy delta, also next to a huge bravo, and it's never like this.
The switch in directions was MOSTLY because the pilot failed to react to the original instructions. Even at the end he was setting up for a very long final until the controller ordered him to turn in. I wonder if he was transitioning into the Duke because he sounded far behind it the whole time, as well as not being too comfortable at a busy tower-controlled airport. Being turned to a downwind is TOUGH when you haven't got the airport in sight yet - maybe he could have told ATC early on?
60500 pilot lost his situational awareness and Tower did NOT help by changing their instructions mid-turn. They should have either prefaced that they were changing the downwind, THEN given a heading to comply with the new downwind, or let him complete his sequence THEN changed the downwind. Both were complicit, but Tower could have been much more helpful than he was.
That controller at NLV is normally awesome, the instructions were confusing especially for a pilot that sounds they aren't familiar with the airport. Sounds like the controller and wasn't on their "A" during that call. Can't say enough things positive about that controller, they definitely helped me out more times then I can remember
Atleast 2 different controllers, the controller you hear first is the one I'm referring to, that is typically awesome, the second controller I haven't heard before on c/d. Might have been Nellis, I don't know.
Agree with others, tower is a complete mess. Not only did he confuse his own instructions several times but seems flustered overall. . At times it feels like he keys his mic a split second too late or releases too quickly cutting out critical information. While comms do not always come out clear over LiveATC recordings, I could swear he called N5227E "Runway 2 7 Echo" at 2:42. The approach controller is the exact opposite. He is clear, composed, and situationally aware.
The Duke was well into the class B airspace at 4900'. Not sure how that in an of itself wasnt a major violation called on the spot (altimeter setting 29.86 so he was surely in).
Hopefully the controller got a "controller deviation." It's pretty important to know your left from your right in this situation. The guy was either very tired or high.
ATC changed the instructions. It seems like the pilot was flying the upwind for 30l (question mark) and would make a left 180 to then fly the downwind for pattern for 30l. Seems like the guy was told to turn left but started to turn right and was then corrected by ATC to turn left only to be changed to turn right. That’s what I got out of it but I can be wrong,
N2355E mentioned!! Did so much of my ppl in that plane. Vegas is a great place to learn, get exposed to lots of different scenarios working under the bravo
METAR KVGT 061553Z 10003KT 10SM CLR 35/06 A2986 RMK AO2 SLP095 T03500056=
Too harsh from ATC on this one, don't you think? What are your opinions?
the duke is on an upwind for 30r, the controller wants him yo make a left crosswind turn for a left downwind? hell I was confused. then the controller changes the turns and downwind. I’d take the number and report the controller as well he caused as much confusion as the pilot
I think they gave the warning just to cover, but really wanted to discuss what went wrong.
Controller mixed up almost as much as the pilot
What was that controller doing….
Controller needs retraining and an ego check
I'm a seasoned UA-cam pilot with lots of these videos under my belt. The controller confused me.
I’m a controller and he confused me 😂 he flip flopped between left and right downwind a couple times
I fly here! Confusion happens. Always ask for clarification...
Controller made this more confusing than it had to be. Pilot slip up for sure, but still.
Controller is a mess... left turn for left downwind.. then suddently it is right downwind... then.. ships pilot to departure for resequence but no one else is in the pattern.... ugh! Then - gives 55E left downwind.. but no.. right downwind... I'd be flying UPWIND to a different airport!!
Yes, he messed up another aircraft on that recording, too.
Fairly certain that theres 2 different controllers and the voice from the first portion isn't the same as the second part
I was confused myself. I’m hearing left and right.
Yeah north Vegas?
Pretty sure he was supposed to go left, he went right, then went so far right that he was instructed to keep going because he crossed over the airport.
Yeah, there was a lot of right, left, right. Once instructions started to get convoluted like that, the ATC should have basically reset and given clear, complete direction, which they did at least in part with "we're changing the downwind." Of course, if I were a pilot and felt instructions were unclear, I would've asked for more clarity--im the one in the sardine can, I can't just guess what instructions are correct if I'm confused.
@@nathanhyland ahh gotcha. I do remember hearing he was too far away headed towards McCarran.
@@UA-camrenderingnotswearingAsa right 😂
Approach was very clear and helpful. Tower was inconsistent and confusing.
1:20 and 1:35 totally different instructions from the tower which confused the pilot.
It looks like the pilot was making a right downwind turn by mistake and by the time he acknowledged the tower, it seems like tower said "screw it" and changed it to a left downwind, from the original right downwind. I agree that it's confusing, but the pilot forgot his left from right to start things off.
It looks like the pilot setup for a right downwind and didn't confirm the original call, then the controller says left downwind and switches to right downwind. He should have confirmed and followed the original call but the controller made things very confusing by telling him to switch the traffic pattern right after. Seems the fault is shared with both sides.
No excuse. He got sent back for resequencing and when he came back he was still all over the place with his calls, and damn new over flew the approach. It's a clear cut case of a misalignment of the flight control actuator being behind an aircraft that has about as much power as some small jets. The Beech Duke is a VERY high performance airplane, and this guy was behind it the whole time.
@@ImpendingJoker on par with some slower turboprops, but let's not pretend a Duke is anywhere close to a jet or even most twin-engine turboprops.
ATC wasn’t doing him any favors. Every other transmission was a different instruction.
Unless the instructions changed because it was too late for him to do the previous instructions
What a mess…
It was pretty clear to me.. maybe youre not smart enough to tell the difference between left and right like the pilot? 🤷♂
@@mcgee6177 maybe we don't all have your super sharp mind...🤣
Probably because they gave an instruction, and the pilot did the opposite.
Once the pilot didn't comply, the same command wouldn't apply or be safe, so ATC needed to issue a new one.
That controller had me lost and I’m in my bedroom
Lol
6:30 what? He's number 2, hasn't been told which traffic he's following, and no one has landed before him? How did he know he was supposed to turn base yet? Theres like 4 planes here, how is the tower so far behind what everyone is doing?
I sooo hope the pilot sees the comments and feels vindicated. Sure, he didn't do a perfect job. But his communication and tone (polite and patient) were all in check, and his mishaps could have EASILY been compensated for smoothly if the tower had been on top of things.
It seem like they switch controllers mid way through since the voices are different but maybe I'm mis hearing that.
That pilot should grab a copy of this VASAviation vid and invite the FAA to review it.
He also got cleared to land at 2:34, after being given that incredibly confusing set of turning directions
Up until the two minute mark the first tower controller was given confusing instructions. “Left turn for a right downwind,” “left turn for a left downwind” and then he finally settled on “right turn for a right down wind” and claimed we’re changing the approach instead of “I screwed up.” The pilot was definitely confused and not on his game. He should’ve right away asked for clarification regarding tower instructions that did not make sense. Tower then gave him a vector which took him further away from the field that he did not have in sight. Then the tower got irritated and gave him back to departure. Definitely some pilot gaps, but equal or more controller gaps.
First off the Duke was on an IFR flight plan and he was supposed to make a straight in approach to 30R. Other training traffic can do 360 and land after the Duke had landed. It makes no sense to sequence a complex twin in a tight pattern traffic with all the slow airplanes. My airport has jets, turbine, and slow trainers. These heavies are always on rnav and we only had to do a couple of 360 to clear. What the controller did was to increase the confusion and added to the danger of a collision between a slow trainer and a fast twin. Plus the pilot in the twin doesn’t have the best visibility outside compare to the small Cessna. The controller needs retraining before he kills somebody
There is no IFR approach onto 30R, long straight-ins conflict with LAS airspace. If you can't fly a basic VFR pattern in a plane, you really shouldn't be in the air with it. No idea why everyone's defending this pilot that doesn't seem to understand left vs. right.
@@bandwevil Because the controller was a mess lol
Duke is a pretty slow Twin unless it’s a turbine conversion. Pretty airplane though!
Pretty sure its is 2 different controllers and maybe she headed that off cause she knew she wouldn't have to then deal with it since the colleague was coming on soon, unless I'm mistaken but the voices at the beginning part as opposed to the ending part are a fair bit different. It isn't as clear on if it might've been on the ground as well unless I'm mistaken on that part but its possible he missed the hold at H call. Unless I'm mistaken.
@@bandwevilTower controller gave the pilot two different set of instructions back to back he caused a major confusion. Needs retraining! ASAP.
It's indeed absurd that the pilot mixed up left and right, but this ATC is truly terrible. The instructions are unclear and disorganized.
I think I’d want to avoid bringing the extra scrutiny that comes with the brasher if I were that tower controller. Career sabotage
This controller really caused confusion, the pilot was fine, but this happening is quite odd. A major slip up
Seriously, what was that mess of instructions lol
As a pilot with VGT as my base, I can say this controller is usually very very good. Maybe just some confusion, overwork, bad day, etc.
@@kilbornfrkSounded pretty green to me. Assumed perhaps he was in training as a controller…🤷🏼♂️
The pilot was fine except turning right when instructed to turn left , and also not maintaining altitude.
Way.
My left or your left?
Our left, sir.
Yes
Yeah right
Sounds like the tower controller was a trainee
The man or woman should not be in comm
What a mess….
Agreed. Diversity
This controller has been there a long time and is usually very good. It sounds like he may have been getting chirped at by another person in the tower as well. Likely just a bad day. I'm sure pilot will be fine.
@@Crosbie85 Racist much?
It's like neither the pilot nor the ATC knows their left from their right.
Gees don’t you think a pilot deviation was alittle harsh?
There's a reason they very specifically say "POSSIBLE pilot deviation".
It means they're going to go back and listen to what happened, hash it out with the pilot, and MAYBE they'll report it. But in a situation as mild as this, I highly doubt it would go anywhere past the phone call.
Sometimes its just a conversation to clear things up. Not necessarily a punitive situation
I think they busted the Bravo to the east. It is pretty tight
If the controller gives you a pilot deviation, they are also submitting a report. FSDO will likely see it and take action if they deem appropriate. ATC is not the sky police, It's up to the investigators to determine any action to move forward with.
@@beneidem369 Yes, but the phone call doesn't equal a deviation.
Controller and pilot here. This one is a little hard to lay blame kn, so ill blame both.
Left downwind for 30R. When youre a controller and looking at a screen, this doesnt seem like a difficult instruction to follow. To a pilot who has to picture this in their head, it seems wrong, unless the pilot has done it before or is familiar with the local area. However, this is a valid instruction that ATC can issue. I think the controller could have used different voice inflections to make the instruction easier for pilots to follow.
Stepping on the pilot. This controller is so guiilty of this. The controller is in charge of the airspace, and hes working hard and fast. Sadly, this happens a lot to controllers. They know but sometimes forget when theh get angry or panicky, but pilots cannot trabsmit and hear at the same time. This situation could have been resolved much quicker if the controller waited for the pilot to unkey before trying to correct him.
I saw someone here mention the controller for being bad for sending the pilot back to approach when the oattern was clear. ATC was right on this one. That pilot was flying IFR and issued a visual approach. That means that while tower can extend downwinds and turn bases, they dont have absolute control of that aircraft. A tower controller sets the landing sequence, but not the arrival sequence. A tower controller cannot, without approval from the approach controller, vector and clear the aircraft for an approach. They especially cannot do this if they are not a RADAR qualified controller. I'm fairly certain VGT is a Class D tower, and therefore has no instrument control of aircraft.
What do you make of the initial positioning of Duke 500 when he calls visual 30R? Do you think approach would have intended for him to fly directly at midfield over the approach end and assume the tower would put him in the pattern? Or was he supposed to be on a straight-in already?
@@bjg09e now I don't work VGT, so I'm doing a lot of assuming here. But I think there might be a letter of agreement on file where approach sends them over the airport at 4000' or so, then it's towers discretion whether they enter left or right downwind.
I say this because this Duke is direct the center of the airport at 4000' going 200 knots (seems very fast to me, but I never flew a Duke). There's no way that was intended to be a straight in. I also know that Harry Reed is very close by, and with the Bravo, VGT probably has a very limited shelf to maneuver aircraft.
The freaking tower is confusing. I was watching the animation and I am confused at his instructions
Tower controller‘s instructions were a confusing mess.
I have a number for you to copy.
Pilot thinking: Yes, & I have a finger for you to copy.
The tower was a hot mess 💅 and they them should probably be the one making a phone call... lol
ATC was very bad indeed.
Sounds more like tower was disoriented but alrighty.
Re-watched and both of them were useless.
North Vegas Tower was pretty FUBAR
Neither of these controllers know their lefts from rights... Dangerous. Reason for the extended downwind on the last approach was most likely due to the aircraft needing time to descend. Controller never told him when to turn base when clearing them to land. Awful job controlling here. Shouldn't be the pilot's fault at all.
Controllers don’t need to call your base before clearing you to land
@@waholoopesorry74The controller was super confusing. But agreed that once you are cleared to land, you maneuver the aircraft as necessary to land from your current position. If ATC needs you to do something otherwise, they’ll let you know. Definitely no obligation for a pilot to wait for ATC to call base unless instructed as such.
N60500, please turn spinward for the updownwind approach. Spinward, I said spinward. What are you doing? OK, now anti-clockwise. Nevermind, just hold up your hands and see which one makes an "L" or something.
We must go forward, not backward. Upward, not downward. And always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom!
@@Middcore 🤣
To be fair, becoming disoriented is quite easy, especially at airports with multiple runways, and then you hear an instruction, make a left turn for right downwind runway three zero right, no, make it a right turn for left downwind three zero right.
pilot got behind the aircraft. The few times tower confused left and right messed him up even further. Tower got behind the traffic and by the end had right and left totally screwed up.
That controller is a mess lol
The guy is trying to fly an aeroplane without dying and ATC changes the direction of the pattern (which changes the side of the runway you approach from) without telling anyone! Pilot is also having trouble making visual contact with the airport, which is only going to increase the pressure. In the Swiss cheese model, this ATC bought the cheese, served it up, and then changed which room it's being served in without telling us
Directions change on a dime out there for many reasons. Usually it's the winds shifting.
I have to defend the pilot here. ATC confused me, sitting on my deck. I understood “left” turn for downwind, then “right turn downwind”, then LEFT turn for downwind” for 30R. THEN, he said both to another aircraft. Not a good controller.
It seemed like he was trying to provide spacing for all the aircraft on only one runway. 30L wasn't in operation for some reason. Might have been
This was a mess, complicated unnecessarily by the first Controller. The guy was clearly lost, Controller made it worse. ATC is usually on game, but this dude was def problematic. Pilot was a mess, likely overwhelmed with an airplane that is too much for him. Scary.
Cleared to land #2.... where was the plane in front of him?
I wouldn't have turned base without knowing where the traffic I'm following is either
That tower is definitely a trainee
Except he’s not, and usually very good, if you read comments of several other pilots that are based at that field or use it frequently
@@amb865right I’m based at KVGT and he’s very experienced and calm, people just don’t follow instructions at that field
A Duke driver needs to be more on it, but the controller went down the tubes once the Duke starting going the wrong way. Approach really did them no favors setting up a big, fast airplane like a Duke in that way.
@@wagmiorngmi Nothing is an Aerostar. A Duke is still a big, fast, demanding airplane.
That controller needs to familiarize himself with the term "upspeak/uptalk" and quit doing it at the end of every word... he probably thinks it sounds pleasant and cheerful but, it also sounds like he doesn't know wtf he's talking about.
Exactly what I was saying to myself listening to this. It's nearly impossible for me to take anyone seriously when they constantly use that "up speak" bullshit while making statements. It's a completely asinine fad that should have ended ten years ago. Same with the use of "SO" to begin a sentence. Idiots!
I hope the pilot argues this possible pilot deviation, that original tower controller was confusing AF!!!
When a controller mixes up LEFT and RIGHT, there should be a number for the CONTROLLER to call!
Possible tower deviation...
In more ways than one
This was like an old Abbot and Costello bit.
tbh I’d like to hear the comms before tower handoff the first time. guy was on about a 300 heading, was he expecting straight in? right down wind? the turn left to enter a left downwind for a runway that is to your right and on the right side of another runway is awkward to say the least. “turn left crosswind” or “turn left heading 210 vectors for downwind” would have probably been more clear
so yeah after a 5th watch he was cleared for a left turn into a left downwind with the runway behind him and to the right. controller called for a 180 course reversal. he should have given an unable and continued into the right downwind which makes a hell of a lot more sense
Do you have ATC from the mayday in Austria on Sunday? The crazy hail storm. OS434
This is terrible work by ATC- they got the guy turning all over the place with 3 other airplanes in the pattern. I mean just extend the guy on a right downwind and call his base and this entire situation is nothing. Shameful job to give him a number to call. ATC needs to do better.
Left 360 in a left downwind is a wild move
For everyone saying he got a Brasher and number to call for not following directions I think is missing that he likely busted the bravo airspace and that was why he got the number
You can't bust the bravo if you're on an IFR clearance that already took you through it.
@@minutiesabotage sure you can. His clearance took him into the delta and he was no longer cleared in bravo airspace once he was handed to tower and entered the delta
Kinda sounds confusing did he change it to to right downwind because he completely blew through it?
through?
I was wondering the same thing. Did he miss the turn for left downwind so ATC changed it to a right downwind rather than trying to bring him back around? Very confusing.
I had to listen again. The controller when the aircraft was on the upwind, told them to plan for a LEFT downwind runway 30R. The aircraft then started to turn RIGHT. Since the aircraft was so far to the RIGHT, the controller then changed them to a RIGHT downwind for runway 30R. The transmission was then blocked and we're then hearing the controller end with "LEFT downwind 30R". Not sure who the controller was addressing, since the transmission was blocked.
The controller comes over the radio and tells the aircraft a suggested heading and that they are CHANGING them to a RIGHT downwind 30R.
The confusing part is being told "number 2"" for landing but not getting a traffic report or told when to turn base.
This is a parallel ga airport. Which is to say, the most busy, and therefore the most susceptible to mid air collisions on the base to final. Pilots should have game or land elsewhere. Tower needs to hand out yellow slips liberally at these airports, its crucial. 1. Know how to enter a pattern at a 45. 2. Know local landmarks or request vectors immediately if unfamiliar. Don't fake it till you make it at parallel runways. Local controllers are under pressure to improve separation. They don't want to be blamed for your screw up, so they will yellow card. Sight the runway with approach. Tower doesn't have time to babysit your lost ass.
Not only was tower confusing, his voice sounded like he was quite unsure with everything he said lol
He was just trying to sound fabulous.
Approach was solid… who is in that tower and why are they working..
Tried to follow ATC’s instructions myself, now I’m stuck in the dryer. Send help.
Could Twr have said “make a left 180 for left downwind to 30r?” 180 addition might have helped?
Main ATCs mistake - cleared to land for traffic, that lost situational awareness before, and didn’t have airport in sight.
I'm not even a pilot, but tower's instructions were clear to me.
I had a pilot deviation call 2 years ago at north vegas. I was flying left seat in a Falcon 900,EX, descending out of 12,000 as instructed for 5000. Airspeed was spot on at 180. It was an IFR to VFR landing, clear day and lots of small airplane traffic. Out TCAS was lit up like the 4th of July. As I was handed over to the tower, they instructed for us to 30L, right downwind and maintain 4500 for an extended. Literally 2 miles past the airport, we were given the call for an expedited turn to base and short final. I replied unable. We were configured, but in my judgement to close to final path . I continued my extended downwind, zero traffic ahead of us. TCAS was clear. Upon a series of 360s, five miles out we got the clearance for final. Upon a normal, safe landing without throwing our px around or fighter jet bank angles, we landed. I got the call tower number.
After a long discussion, thankfully it was acknowledged that there was no deviation and in addition the unable call was appropriate.
Fly safe, you are the pilot in command. The moment you are uncomfortable with tower commands, make a command decision followed by the simple word unable.
Non pilot here, but follower of the channel.... Duke 500 went right when instructed left , ok.. had the controller, said something like, ok that's not what I asked you to do but continue right downwind, and we'll sort it out. It would have given the pilot a few seconds to realise their mistake and the ATC the chance to evaluate what else was in the immediate area around an aircraft that the ATC hadn't planned on being where it was.
Yes that's armchair quarterbacking, but the ATC panic of having Duke turn left downwind when it was so far into the right turn made matters worse and ore confusing , especially when he did realise that actually continuing the right downwind was the best option. Can't comment on the handing off for re sequencing,
But later on the ATC didn't help by calling clearances and where in the sequence without identifying who and where the aircraft in front was.... calling that you are number 2 but not to what number 1 is and where it is for the pilot to eyeball. For me that contributed to Duke running long before making final turn, as he hadn't been told what aircraft to start his turn in behind.
Situational Confusion (pilot) + situational confusion (ATC) = hot mess
Controller kept giving pilot conflicting instructions.
This ATC was messing up more than the pilot. Sure, the pilot was confused about what way to turn, but the ATC was so indecisive about what way to turn. He also gave an incorrect sequence at the end, 55E was following traffic on right base, not left base. I really hope the guy didn’t get a deviation
The initial comms were for a left turn to a left downwind for 30R. This was acknowledged and was going fine until 500 turned right instead of left. My guess is there was a bit of expectation bias to make right traffic for the right runway, as is practice at many airports with parallel runways. But it’s not an excuse; do what ATC says.
After that ATC started to change things as well, maybe it was a slip-up or maybe it was intentional, but they didn’t really clarify for a bit, then definitely started slipping up again later as things got pear-shaped.
So the pilot made the first error and ATC didn’t really help things with unclear instructions. It compounded from there.
The controller mixed up enough that I think a deviation is bullshit. Guy was responsive but confused and there were no crazy pilot created safety conflicts. I’ve been in unfamiliar territory and, particularly given they weren’t even offering approaches, I can see issues happening, and this was akin to missing your interstate exit ramp or something.
His downwind was so long he busted the bravo. That’s the deviation
What does busted bravo mean
@@Grubbbee the bravo airspace is only for commercial aircraft. smaller aircraft are only allowed to fly into these airspaces either with permission or directly instructed to do so. If you bust into it, you potentially risk traffic obstruction with bigger aircrafts, that's why those airspaces are no-fly zones for smaller aircraft.
@@karlelias Yikes! Bravo requires communication and clearance. It has NOTHING to do with the size of the aircraft. They are certainly not "no fly zones" for "smaller" or "non-commercial" aircraft.
@@boulderup9c oof, didn't know that. i am very sorry. thanks for sharing, really should keep my mouth shut if i don't know anything lol.
Does tower want a left downwind for 30 right or a right downwind for 30 right? can't keep switching pack and forth....
It seems to me that when a phone number has to be issued for a "possible pilot deviation" it ought to be done on a "less" busy frequency. So many times it would be easier (if the choice is between the local controller and the ground controller) to let the ground controller issue the phone number when the aircraft is not moving after it clears the runway.
3:14 bro's giving up on him
Definitely not a fan when towers controlling dual runways have you make a left downwind for a right runway or vice versa. Each time I’ll ask them to confirm, especially if I’ve heard different things before.
I trained at KVGT for all my certs and this controller is usually on his A game. It can be very difficult to navigate here especially if you’re unfamiliar with the area
Disoriented controller*
I fly out of a similarly configured airport and it can be confusing when told to make traffic in a direction different from the runway's position (left traffic for a right runway). Lots more happening in a twin, too, and a lot of traffic. The controller could have made things easier/clearer by calling their base turn and ensuring the correct airport was in sight. Also, just because it was a clear day doesn't make it easier. Sun could have caused issues.
With that title I was ready for a bad pilot, not a confusing (and probably also confused) controller! That was a mess...
I live directly under the approach to 12R/30L about 1/2 mile north of this airport. This airport gets it all. Cessna 172's, twins, biplanes, small private jets, (relatively) small freight jets, etc. Once during an airshow in Jean, NV we were in the pool and watched a B25 on approach! Beautiful airplane! We could count the rivets in the fuselage. We've also seen WWII war birds during airshows. I thought this controller was very confusing with this particular aircraft. At least one commenter said he was a good controller so perhaps he was having an off day. Sadly, his profession does not allow for bad days, though we all have them.
I looked up his inbound flight.. he flew in IFR. I mentioned this to my wife after showing her the video and she asked if he was still wearing his foggles and couldn’t see the airport? Lol
was that one half of the ambiguously gay duo? Asking for a friend.
I fly at this airport regularly. It's a very busy airspace most of the the time and quite challenging for everyone involved. I can't be sure, but the pilot of N60500 most likely recieved the number for crossing back into the LAS bravo airspace during his downwind before turning base which was late, the approach ends of 30R and 30L are only about 1.5nm from the more restrictive Bravo airspace. His aircraft was somewhat large and fast for this runway, I'm glad he ultimately got down safely.
Probably not a huge deal for the number, however. Crossing that bit of Bravo happens out there often because of the proximity, and LAS was aware of the operation...
KVGT can be a madhouse at times, and as you saw here controllers are sometimes adding to the confusion.
Did Las Vegas recently rename their runways? On Google Earth it says 26L and 26R.
North Las Vegas?
Controller wanted him to do a left 180 but only said “left turn” …It’s confusing, especially in a busy environment when radio calls are stepped on. But the pilot should have asked/clarified if he’s confused… and he was.
Pilot error to start the chainreaction, however that left turn to left downwind mistake by the controller was just as bad. Then assuming the pilot is telepathic until he instructed that they were changing the downwind
This isn’t confusing people. Watch where that plane (N60500) is at. Tower wanted him to do a left 180 to rejoin the downwind. He basically was doing a straight in approach for the 30s when he first called up. Since the extras were landing he needed to space him out. If he would have listened to tower the first time there would have been zero issues. This isn’t confusing at all. The only thing tower didn’t do was say “amend your instructions” just keep the right turn going because that is what he decided to do anyway if you watch his ground track. So tower was just doing what made sense for the time. He crossed over the departure end of the runway when he wasn’t supposed to. If tower had him do the left turn like he was supposed to do initially he would cross it again, so tower made an on the fly decision and just had him keep going to the east for a right downwind instead of left downwind. Pilot didn’t know what runway was 30R or was confused about the initial left turn for left downwind. All pilots fault IMO.
What the hell is happening at that airport... I understand it's a busy delta, but I trained out of a similarly busy delta, also next to a huge bravo, and it's never like this.
The switch in directions was MOSTLY because the pilot failed to react to the original instructions. Even at the end he was setting up for a very long final until the controller ordered him to turn in. I wonder if he was transitioning into the Duke because he sounded far behind it the whole time, as well as not being too comfortable at a busy tower-controlled airport. Being turned to a downwind is TOUGH when you haven't got the airport in sight yet - maybe he could have told ATC early on?
60500 pilot lost his situational awareness and Tower did NOT help by changing their instructions mid-turn. They should have either prefaced that they were changing the downwind, THEN given a heading to comply with the new downwind, or let him complete his sequence THEN changed the downwind. Both were complicit, but Tower could have been much more helpful than he was.
A lot of this is on the controller and the blocked transmissions. Looks like the duke made a bit of a mistake, but the controller compounded it.
That controller at NLV is normally awesome, the instructions were confusing especially for a pilot that sounds they aren't familiar with the airport. Sounds like the controller and wasn't on their "A" during that call. Can't say enough things positive about that controller, they definitely helped me out more times then I can remember
Is that not 2 different controllers?Just the voice for the beginning and the end seem a fair bit different but maybe I'm confused or mistaken
Atleast 2 different controllers, the controller you hear first is the one I'm referring to, that is typically awesome, the second controller I haven't heard before on c/d. Might have been Nellis, I don't know.
Agree with others, tower is a complete mess. Not only did he confuse his own instructions several times but seems flustered overall. . At times it feels like he keys his mic a split second too late or releases too quickly cutting out critical information. While comms do not always come out clear over LiveATC recordings, I could swear he called N5227E "Runway 2 7 Echo" at 2:42. The approach controller is the exact opposite. He is clear, composed, and situationally aware.
The first ATC sounds like every male barista at a Starbucks drive through.
Tower was so confusing, should have said, from you current position now make a right turn to enter a right downwind
When you give someone a deviation and then you’re the one that actually ends up in trouble 😂
The Duke was well into the class B airspace at 4900'. Not sure how that in an of itself wasnt a major violation called on the spot (altimeter setting 29.86 so he was surely in).
Tower’s number one job is to help, not be the police.
Hopefully the controller got a "controller deviation." It's pretty important to know your left from your right in this situation. The guy was either very tired or high.
Also he told 55e follow Cessna on LEFT base, but he's right base in the graphic. So both local controllers are suspect.
"You want us to go left, right?" "Right. I mean left....errr don't NOT go right". /facepalm.
ATC changed the instructions. It seems like the pilot was flying the upwind for 30l (question mark) and would make a left 180 to then fly the downwind for pattern for 30l. Seems like the guy was told to turn left but started to turn right and was then corrected by ATC to turn left only to be changed to turn right. That’s what I got out of it but I can be wrong,
I’ve not heard “left downwind” and “right downwind“ before; could someone please explain what this means?
Why was he told to caopy a number lol,tower should have called his base anyway.
N2355E mentioned!! Did so much of my ppl in that plane. Vegas is a great place to learn, get exposed to lots of different scenarios working under the bravo
You never know when an airplane you've flown will appear on VASAviation
I was fortunate enough to not be flying and able to stop, rewind and replay to try and understand what was going on here. ATC takes equal blame.
what the pilot do?? was he suppose to go left or right? IDK couldn't figure out the controller
VGT controllers need some work. Have always been subpar for years
Did the Teterboro PA28 pilot morph over to North Vegas?