WTF HAPPENED IN STEUBENVILLE?
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- Опубліковано 2 жов 2024
- HULK LACI SMASH RAPE CULTURE
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What is rape culture?
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SUMMARY
Rape culture is a culture in which sexual violence is common, considered normal/inescapable, and is continually excused or dismissed by society at large. In this video, I briefly discuss 4 pieces of the Steubenville case that illustrate rape culture in action.
hello, let's get this straight:
RAPISTS ARE NOT VICTIMS. LET ME REPEAT THAT: RAPISTS. ARE. NOT. VICTIMS
thank you
+Izzy Hardin - You'd think it was that easy for society to accept, but no.
I hate human beings
Say it again for the people in the back!!!
I still can't get over the amount of public sympathy these guys got, in this decade, for being rapists and being convicted. They got a fucking slap on the wrist, too. And it was all "those poor young men!!! /sob" ughhh.
They weren't treated the way they were for being rapists, normally that's the axe to the neck right there for any normal guy. The reason they got all this attention was because of who they were, the high school's football team. It's their pride as a small town, and to claim something that is highly popular and well liked within the community of a crime like rape, people are going to pick sides regardless of evidence.
dragonheart967 And that's a problem, isn't it? that the town would value its football stars regardless of them being known to be rapists, and spit on the girl they raped. It just says that being good at football excuses you of any crime...which is fucked up, and also true of society as a whole if you look at the NFL. :(
Rai Chu Exactly! That is the entire basis of my being here, it's to draw attention to the actual mentality and issue here, which is not any rape culture that so many people are jumping on said bandwagon for. It's entirely fucked up that this shit happens, no doubt, and I certainly wish we could change this mentality, but quite frankly, I got nothing.
And it's not just rape, but ANY crime, a really prominent case would be Brian Deneke's murder. When you compare these cases, you realize that regardless of the crime, they go about it the same way. Yet in the comments, all I hear are people going on and on about it being a rape culture, and I feel compelled to bring these points up to show where the actual problem is.
And it certainly gets worse the more you go up the famous tree. NFL players do get TONS of recognition, and thus, forgiveness for even some serious crimes.
dragonheart967 Exactly. The problem here is that the offenders in the Steubenville case were excused because they were football players, not because they were rapists. If they had been regular students, no one would have cared for them.
Well, what did they actually DO? I heard there was no penile penetration - so the actual harm done to her was minimal. Still a crime yes, but not rape.
Sexual assault is kind of a catch-all. There is a lot of behaviour lumped in under that term.
Is someone is unconscious, they cannot answer the question "would you like some tea?" So the logical thing to do is call a doctor, not pour tea down their throat, assuming that they might want some tea.
+Kaitlynn Kitty i actually love it. you are the smartest fucking person ever.
+I am not asleep This is a well-known analogy. So don't give too much credit here.
I'd made a comment but it turned into a rant and I deleted it because it was 44 lines. 😕 I think it's best just to say that we aren't sex toys and leave it at that. Because I can go on forever.
Do you mean to say that nobody is a sex toy? Or do you just mean women are not sex toys?
***** nobody (I hope) is a sex toy. Male, female, or whatever gender one is (there's more than just 2 genders after all); no one is a sex toy!
Sam Nich There are only 2 genders. Who ever claims to be outside this is absolutely lying. How someone feels they are does not change biological fact. Yes, I do agree that no one is a sex toy because that just sounds stupidly insane. Sex toys are sex toys.
Technology Beginner The terms "sex" and "gender" are two different things. "Sex" is what you mislabeled as gender in your response-the biological sex each individual is born as. "Gender" is the identification of what each individual feels they are, which ranges from male to female and includes everything in between on a wide spectrum.
Amanda O'Donnell First, what you "feel" you are does not change who your are. Second, gender and sex are invariably linked.
Third, sex is binary. Gender for some reason has tried to stray from this. Either you are more masculine or more feminine and you will be identified as such. One last thing, never use feelings as an argument. It doesn't work that way.
I started crying watching this video and gagging because i have been sexually assaulted (never raped because thank God i had my large dog with me each time). I wrote an essay four years after the most violent one because our teacher wanted us to write about a traumatic experience. My teacher was 60-something years old and i wrote it as it happened. He was a friend, and i was 13 and she wrote on my paper that "it sounded like i was flirting with him". And... I cant.... I cant deal with this fucked up shit like this anymore...
been sexually assaulted 6 times*
That's so sad
It doesn't matter if i was or not. That's the point.
So... it's ok to rape someone if they're flirting with you?
Being held against a brick wall at 13 years old screaming no and stop is. You're right. Regret sex is not rape. But flirting is not sex.
My psychology professor actually gave our intro to psychology class an incredibly similar lecture when this happened. He was actually visibly angry and outraged. I was glad to see people in position of guidance and leadership telling people that not saying "no" and consent are not the same.
If you put your hand in my pants, you're saying "yes' and are until you do or say something to negate it.
ExBruinsFan but is the other person? the one doing it isn't the one to say yes or no, the one that it is happening to is.
Aleks Edvokim
If they do and say nothing to dissuade them, then they are also 'saying yes'.
If someone tried this without my consent, you better believe that would do and say plenty to make my opinion clear.
ExBruinsFan Not if you were PASSED OUT, and even if you were awake, let's say you were a girl and you just heard about a girl getting raped and being blamed for it, then all of a sudden you are being forced onto by some guy, at this point, do you really believe anyone would side with you if you reported him to the police?
Just obtain this knowledge from this right now for the sake of the human race, please. Without an outright "Yes" it is always no. Even if you believe it would be yes and are 110% sure. MAKE FUCKING SURE
ExBruinsFan Exactly, but that doesn't change the fact that just because someone say nothing, it does NOT mean yes.
This world is fucked up, I'm staying at my computer.
I was looking it up on the internet, and I saw the comments blaming her... I can't help but feel disgusted, angry and sad at the same time.
So incredibly disgusting. They're just stupid ugly men who can't get women to even look at them.
Liv "stupid ugly men" spot the feminazi. Because of course females didn't blame her, right? Right?
victim blaming happens to men and women, and it's both men and women who do it. Well, actually, people don't even victim blame when it happens to men, they completely deny the fact that they are victims by saying things like "Guys can't really be raped since they always want sex anyways." This world is one messed up place :/
A big problem with the sympathy is that it goes along with the "Good Old Boy" mindset, that a popular, well liked person can do no wrong. Just because someone is a star high school football player in a small town in bumfuck nowhere, doesn't mean they can just get away with anything.
We say that now, but you can bet that it's only doomed to repeat itself due to our bias.
It fucking sucks.
God that is so true. It's even more prevalent in the South.
I would like to ask
Is it classed as a rape situation if you are constantly pressured and enotionally beaten down until you do say yes? X
Yes
Very much so. I hope everything is alright with you though.
Hello. I hope you're ok. That absolutely constitutes rape. Please message me if you need anything at all x
That situation is definitely rape. If this happened to you, Please tell someone and get help, it's nothing to be ashamed of and it's never your fault.
Thank you everyone who commented!
Never thought of it as that until I saw this video I am glad I watched it now. Thank you for your support too means alot! Xx
Here's a tip boys
IF A FEMALE (OR MALE) IS UNCONSCIOUS, YOU DO NOT TOUCH OR VIOLATE THEM.
thank you. carry on.
I have to say that it is stuff like this that makes me cringe at the fact that our society is so...so....inhuman at times. I don't get why people would sympathize with the two men that raped that poor girl. So what if she was drunk, so what if she was wearing a slutty outfit, or so whatever! Those men weren't being forced to do anything to her, it's not like someone had a gun to there heads say "You need to rape this girl, or I'll kill you and your whole family too." No, they did it on there own, completely of there own accordance. As someone who has been raped AND not seen as a victim in it, I kills me to know that I am not the only person out there that has had to deal with kind of bullshit. I hope beyond all hope that society and humanity wake up and realized who kind of mistakes it's making so they can fix it and stop this -as well as many other- inhumanly acts so the world will become a better place.
Good luck trying to get them to look past the bind favoritism. It's wasn't so much that the people sympathized with the boys more, it's them liking the boys for their position and said fucked the girl, as in they were covering the boys actions.
That is completely sad....It that kind of action and behavior that makes me feel shameful to be apart of society. It's completely and utterly wrong on so many levels.
Minda Abelli It's just human nature. They'll more often side with what they like rather than what is right, because most of us see it as the same thing. It's the same thing that happened with Brian Deneke, which funny enough, the Steubeville case actually shows improvement of this mindset, though it could have just been because of the larger media coverage.
It is embarrassing that so many people would let themselves be blinded by group thinking and let such a crime go unpunished, just because they "like" the boys.
kasper nielsen Exactly, it's a disgusting thing to witness in our culture. I mean, our justice system's motto is "justice is blind", yet we can't follow that enough because humans are so hooked on favoritism. But in the end, I can't say I'm surprised, because people have been getting away with crimes on the basis of their class or positions since the time of kings, it's always been present. It just pisses me off when someone sees this, ignores that it happens to crimes in general, and say that it only happens to rape like everything else is just peachy.
They only got ONE YEAR in JUVIE. that's the part that got me angry.
+Duncan Apisdorf - I was already angry by the time she started showing those tweets onscreen.
Lol. That's nothing compared to what else goes on out here.
+Duncan Apisdorf No, no... the part which should make you much more angrier is that others did worse during this incident & they got-off without even a slap on the wrist
And I agree that drunk naked women should not have to face ANY concern about being raped. Until that becomes reality, I'm going to Open Carry :-0)
Or - you could - not get drunk?
Presumably (from your words) it's okay to rape drunk naked men.
ExBruinsFan RE: ""Presumably (from your words) it's okay to rape drunk naked men."
Which words exactly ?
yeah, only this: i'm waiting for the day until not even one drunk naked HUMAN should have to worry about rape. (i understand that the common notion is that women are at least FAR more likely to face this, and that some people might even think (at least at first) that this would never happen to a man - but it does. rape comprises crimes about power as well as of people just not being *willing* to control their urges. stop that sugarcoating, too, of how people "were not able to" - it's much more about them not even trying, much less putting effort in. how come women can control themselves so much better if a male, really gorgeous model ends up drunk and naked, or even only half-naked next to them? (and yes, it takes a lot more than being drunk to prevent being able to 'perform')..)
because rape is just NO-GO and that's it.
also waiting for the day people will finally stop killing each other or brutalizing each other.. and yeah, well, basically waiting for humans to finally act "humane". so many people's behaviors don't deserve the word linked to them.. -.-
These guys were so misogynists; the whole thing was not about feeling sexual satisfaction, but about destroying the victim. Why would a guy pee on a girl's face? Of course he doesn't feel any respect for her. He hates her. That's what happened there, and these guys shouldn't leave jail for at least 10 years.
Not really. Those boys did what they did out of stupidity while high on their own(high school) fame. They weren't out to torture the girl and make her suffer, for fucks sake, the girl didn't even know what the hell happened until someone showed her the photos. They just did something they thought was okay not to hurt the girl, but in this case, it WAS for their own sexual gratification.
I agree, they should have been given much harsher sentences, but don't twist the motive to make them out to be heartless monsters who want to watch all women burn. And don't bring up other people's kink into some inherent disrespect for women. Some people are masochists and like that weird play, so please don't disrespect others people's sexual preference.
dragonheart967 Aham, ok. ¬¬
ClaustrophobicCarrot Mere insult when you only disagree with an opinion.
Awesome.
dragonheart967 Nobody's making them out to be "heartless monsters" because that's exactly what they are. Like you said, they did it for their own sexual gratification. They did what they did out of some need and sexual desire to assert some sort of dominance over this girl. Though without aggression, they did so by violating her in a helpless state and by peeing on her face. By reducing her to a useless, helpless sexual object, they gratified inner sick sexual urges inside themselves. This makes them rapists--pretty much synonymous with monsters by commonly accepted terms of morality.
Kris Burke I think what DragonHeart967 was trying to say was that--if these guys were trying to torture her and make her suffer, they would've had her conscious and done everything they can to physically and emotionally torment her, so that they can feel gratified by seeing her pain; what they did was out of stupidity, greed, and monstrous selfishness, absolutely. But saying that peeing on her face is weird and confusing (though it probably was intended to be a form of sexual humiliation since it was rape rather than a loving BDSM session between consenting partners), that it "wasn't about sexual satisfaction", and that they should be sentenced for 10 years, are all harsh and/or questionable statements. Granted, the way DragonHeart967 explained things probably unintentionally soft-soled things, but it came from a good place: a rapist is not someone who wants to see a complete "gender-cide", and urine play is not necessarily indicative of disrespecting/humiliating someone (though it can be and probably was in this case). Please understand that I'm not trying to attack anyone--I'm just trying to clear some stuff up by offering another perspective to think about. :)
Absolutely disgusting. I can't believe I forgot about this. Soooo sad that those POOR boys lost their future. NOT. It's their own damn fault that they did something wrong, that they should have KNOWN was wrong.
Hey Laci..my husband attended your one of the educative talks on rape culture in University oF Victoria on 30th of September. He was very impressive of you and the way you delivered your talk. This made me curious and I started to watch your videos...and I am really amazed to see that women who are raped are blamed all over the world instead of rapists. We have simolar beliefs in India as well. I really condemn the way a rape victim is treated here and now I believe its humiliating all over the world. We shall really stand against this rape culture and make a better society for women.
+priyanka bhaya India is a fucked up country. We all saw what happened to that poor woman on the bus a couple years ago. That is a rape culture. That shit does not happen in the west. There is no rape culture here. Stop believing the feminist lies.
+Elbownian Right. So that's why you've just watched a video regarding rape that happened in the west. Rape happens to both genders in countries that are north, east, south and fucking west. This has nothing to do with feminism. This is to do with acts of rape, and for you to be so ignorant to how certain kinds of humans can be around the world, it's not even astonishing, it's just boring. People who are so dense to this subject and who think that it doesn't happen in their country, it's so stupid that it's actually boring to see.
Hannah Evelyn Jones
You are mistaken. I didn't say rape didn't happen, I said there is no rape culture in the west. If you're going to object to a point, perhaps you should understand what that point actually is first, and then object to that rather than to something nobody actually said.
I'm completely sick of poeple on here who should know better, wilfully misconstruing an argument and going off on non-sequiter tangents. If you can't even get this first step right, we are not dancing.
Elbownian We're never going to be dancing - I'd be too quick for you.
And what exactly requires a 'rape culture'? More than one rape per week? Two? Three? Jesus, four? I'm going to burst your bubble for a second, I'm sorry. But rape happens daily, everywhere. Whether it be when you're on a night out with your friends to someone walking down the street to someone that you already know in your house. It happens more than your narrow brain can even imagine. The amount of people who come forward per year is outstanding, and those are just the reported cases. So again, what exactly is a 'rape culture'? Because if it's not this, with the amount of women, men and children that experience this, then I don't know what is.
Hannah Evelyn Jones
How cute. The irony is strong with this one.
I have no need to back anything up, the burden of prood lies with the one making a positive claim, not the one skeptical of that claim. To say there is no rape culture is not a positive claim, it is a negative one, and you can't prove a negative, as everyone knows.
A positive claim is the only thing that can be proven, and so the burden of proof always lies with those making a positive claim, in this case you. You are claiming that there IS a rape culture, but you are the one failing to provide any evidence for it. All you have said is that there are rapes. This is not in dispute.
And you clearly do need a tutor, since you seem to be conflating rape with rape culture.
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
You are asserting that there is a rape culture. This claim can be dismissed out of hand unless you can provide any evidence to substantiate it. That's it - the end. There is no onus on the skeptical to provide evidence for the lack of a rape culture. The null hypothesis is the default hypothesis.
Your question was "You have absolutely no idea what you think requires a rape culture, do you?".
In fact I do. Do you?
Damn if I would've been there, the guy who backed off from doing something about that would get a punch in the face for being a wuss, and those rapists would gat a chair to the head! and everyone who watched would get a kick in the groin or a punch in the boobs! Like, HOW?!
What a great way to affirm positive action in a negative scenario...
Jay Goldie You think any of those jerks would react to "No stop, that's bad" ? They know it's bad and what they do is wrong, but they don't give a shit! Some people need pain therapy to learn!
KrikaGamerLog
So you would teach the only person who attempted to do good a lesson in pain? sure, beat the crap out of those dicks, but whats to be gained from beating someone who stood up, even if they weren't successful.
William Ogden
i'm not white knighting for no-one. last time I checked, nobody gets punished for trying to stop bad things from happening, more so if everyone ignores you.
Jay Goldie No no no, I meant the guys who were clearly doing bad, not anyone who called someone for help...
I took social psychology this semester in university and one part always sticks out for me in regards to victim blaming. Its the idea of a believe in a "just world" ie people get what they deserve in life, including rape. What I found enough more interesting was the fact that the more threatened by the injustice, the greater the need to protect OURSELVES from the dreadful implication that it could happen to us, so we protect our poor little brains by blaming the victim!
You are so right, the women gets blame for everything. She deserved that, she was responsible!! is just sickening and shows the brutality of our society. Instead of helping the girl,knowing she was drunk they rape her...wow it's so sad where we are going as a society, and it will only get worse. JesusReps.
fun story-
I was twelve, and I'd been inside all day, watching TV. my mom asked me to put pants on and go to the grocery store to buy milk. I threw on a long sweater (dress length) and some shoes. It was late enough to be fairly dark outside. I realized my mistake at not putting pants on and felt very vulnerable, speed walking to the store and back. nothing happened, but the fact that a 12-year old should be restricting what she wears as to not get RAPED is ridiculous
It isn't ridiculous, it's called taking precautions and you're gonna have to do it a lot.
+Xodus1247 Yes, but why? She´s 12, and it´s insane that she should even have to!
+Xodus1247 That's ridiculous, she should be able to walk to the fucking store naked without being raped. Your argument is akin to saying "if you don't wear a bullet proof vest you should expect to be shot at".
+- spazz - If you're on a battlefield you better fuckin expect being shot at. Did you even read the comment? She said she WASNT raped just felt scared which is a natural emotion nothing wrong with that. If you lock your doors at night to prevent burglars then being mindful of rapists is just the same concept.
Xodus1247 I never said anything about a battlefield, I'm talking down the street. Its the same line or reasoning. "you should wear a bullet proof vest at all times or you should expect being shot"
"She said she WASNT raped just felt scared which is a natural emotion nothing wrong with that"
I never said she was raped. I said she should be able to walk down the road naked without being raped. Thinking there is nothing wrong with being afraid is fucking sick.
"If you lock your doors at night to prevent burglars then being mindful of rapists is just the same concept"
You do realize that most places in the world don't lock their doors. It isn't the fault of the victim regardless of the situation. You should be able to leave your doors wide open and expect not to be robbed.
Hey Laci, would you be able to do a video about men being able to be raped, I've talked to a lot of my friends and they say men can not be raped and I try explain that they are wrong but they don't listen
This video just made me realise something. Our society is F*CKED UP!
I've been in the internet for a while now, and holy crap, you wouldn't believe how many absolute scumbags I've had arguments with regarding sexual violence. Even as recently as the Sam Pepper scandal, I've seen people legitimately claiming that what he did wasn't sexual violence because 'he didn't get arrested'. Jesus!
Juveniles that murder, or rape should be charged as adults. Being in Australia this is the first time I've heard of this case, just read it on wiki.. its utterly disgusting that media outlets and the school faculties cared more about the boys future careers than the scars and humiliation the girl now has to live with.
This only happened because people were initially with these boys as their position as football stars. We are talking about a small town, and the school being a traditional "sports school," these boys would have had backing from numerous people. When you look at the lives of your stars, everyone else can just suck it, especially a victim of rape. These boys could have committed murder, and they still would have had tons of people defending them. Human's are easily susceptible to bias, and this is not the first case where a jock was protected and cared for when they committed a crime.
Wow basically all the comments saying things like "Well then she shouldn't have gotten drunk!" And justifying the rapist or the people feeling sorry for the rapist, and the victim blamers are men who more than likely have no idea what it's like to be assaulted and the aftershock of it. SHOCKER!
it could be a woman vicitm blaming just so she can delude herself that the rape occured because of the fault of the victim and that it will never personally occur to her because she "looks out for herself".
I am sorry for how horrible my gender is in the majority, but I would like to clarify that a lot of men can control themselves, and that shouldn't be used as an excuse to get out of rape. If a guy rapes, they chose to do that, but not all guys are like that and I'm sorry my gender is so evil that people are scared of us. We have some tasty cookies though
This is fucking ridiculous. People can actaully be so ignorant to blame her for this or say she started it. WOMAN SHOULD BE SAFE NO MATTER WHAT THERE FUCKING WEARING, WHERE THEY ARE, OR HOW DRUNK THEY ARE. I can't believe how many people in the world can think such bullshit like the rapist weren't to blame or she had a part to play. Your fucking disgraceful if you think that.
It's not so much as ignorance as it is favoritism. To think or believe that people merely believe that this girl deserved it or blame her out right is in itself ignorant of the situation and mentality of the whole ordeal.
***** The difference is that with a robbery, one can't get into a locked house; it's a physical impossibility. But if one truly wanted to violate a girl's body, the victim could be fully awake or passed out. The only difference is that it's considered more acceptable to take advantage of the body of a passed-out person. A victim's clothes and behavior make all the difference in whether a rape case is considered enabled and justified, but that shouldn't be the case.
Lucia Bevilacqua It's not a matter that the court will find that the rape is justified, it's that the accused places doubt that what happened was rape.
Lets face it, if these people are gonna be accused of a crime, they're gonna come out with any and all possible ways to discredit what the accuser claims.
When they bring about clothes, it's not that they are saying that the person deserved to be raped, it's a matter of if she was looking for a partner for the night. If the person was drinking, it could have lead to sex that the person later regretted, thus forming a false claim to rape.
When they are reviewing the case, the court cannot be in a state of mind where the rape did happen, and what is represented is the rapists excuse. No, they have to listen to the claim, and the case of rape has to be proven, it has to be proven that the rapist forced themselves onto the victim, because there are such a thing as liars, and the person has to be proven guilty with evidence rather than a claim from the victim, for it proves nothing. If all the victim can bring forth is the claim, then they can't do anything. This gives the defense to bring forth it's own counter evidence, such as the victims outfit or state of mind, that the victim was never raped but claims so out of embarrassment or malice.
It just turns into a large slander campaign, and it's a sad state that this is where our court system is reduced to in such cases.
+EBMusicEducator True, but there have been the occasional case where it was brought up, though each one was quickly swatted down.
My point was that the defense will through everything and anything they can to discredit the victim, even going so far as to bring up past offenses or a particular black mark that is completely irrelevant to the case. The same goes for the prosecution, and this goes on in any case possible. Check those civil court cases.
You about said it all. I'll just add this: Rapists are vile monsters. The end.
I think rape should be a hate crime and carry a mandatory minimum sentence of 50 years in prison.
Thank you. If I ever see such a thing. I will be a hero, not a bystander.
I understand this crime happened over a year ago. I remember hearing in the news. but looking back I now understand that yes what I heard was the criminals being portrayed as victims. After watching this video I did a little internet research. Now I am appalled at my own lack of disgust for the biased reporting. my own dis-concern over what the real victim was put through. Yes a small measure of justice was issued but no where near proper punishment to fit the crime. I can see this society we currently live in has a deep imbedded rape culture with a complete lack of respecting basic human rights.
Not rape culture, a culture of bias and favoritism. Do you think they boys received the treatment they did because people thought the rape was okay? Or did it look more like they were treating the boys an those who could do no wrong. They attacked the girl because they viewed her as an attacker of "these innocent boys".
And media tends to fuck up on stories where they try to follow the popular opinion of those involved. It fucking sucks.
Shoe0nHead said it best:
"Are you seriously using this one hick town in the middle of bumble-fuck nowhere as an example of "rape culture"?"
Only part I don't really agree with is the notion that we shouldn't talk about the rapists, the costs they have to face and what they lost. Not saying we should feel sorry for them, but we should discuss exactly what they are losing, exactly what it is like for them now, exactly who they were. People shy away from this sort of thing because they don't want to glorify or treat the rapist as a victim. I feel however that humanizing the rapists is very important. Show who they were, show what they lost. I hear over and over and over.."WE NEED TO TEACH BOYS TO STOP RAPING!".
Ok, I agree, so let's do that. A great way to do that is to show that these rapists are not monsters..they are boys..just like the boys you're trying to reach. Show that the rapists had lives, just like the lives of the boys you are trying to reach. Show that the rapists thought what they where doing was OK, just like the boys you are trying to reach might. Show that the rapists are paying a terrible price for their actions, in exquisite detail, just like the price the boys you are trying to reach will pay should they make the same mistakes.
When society paints a rapist like this as a pure monster, then we cannot learn from them, because they are not like us. The boys you are trying to reach assume they are different, fundamentally, then these rapists and so no lesson can be learned. I feel that is a mistake.
I understand that underlying what you're saying may be a good motive, and making people realise that rapists aren't just mindless animals and are actually men and even boys just like normal people in society may seem to you as though it might be a good step, but its not.
Putting that emphasis on the rapist creates sympathy for them: "poor little rapist lost his football scholarship".
These boys don't give a crap because they know that people feel sorry for them for 'making a mistake'.
Raping someone is not a mistake. And it needs to be taught in society that it is not a mistake. And that won't be taught by showing the 'softer side' of rapists.
Just the same as you don't talk about the 'softer side' of murderers. That person still murdered. They don't deserve sympathy for it. And we're not talking here about degrees of murder such as when it's unintentional etc. because you cannot rape someone without true intent to do so.
Those boys truly wanted to humiliate that girl. They raped her unconscious body and it was filmed and photographed. You don't do that by accident.
They wanted to humiliate her because they have a fundamental lack of respect for women which is perpetuated by victim-blaming, people making out that women and girls are responsible for the sexual choices of men.
That girl will have to live with the trauma of that experience for the rest of her life. Those boys created that trauma, and they do not deserve sympathy.
People who rape are monstrous. To invade someone's body without consent in poisonous and vicious.
They don't deserve humanising because what they did is dehumanising.
Sonnie Wills
Well you read a lot into my post. You responded to many things I didn't say. In the end, you and I are probably going to have to agree to disagree. Humanizing the rapists (or murderers) is not a mistake. It IS the main way we can learn from what happened. People who rape, or murder, are not monsters, they're people. In some cases they are mentally compromised (sociopath ect.), but usually they are normal people. A set of circumstances lead to the commission of a monstrous act by these individuals. If we say the rapists are themselves fundamentally monsters, then they are different from us and we cannot learn. If you want to know how to keep boys and men from raping women, you need to know what happened that allowed these boys to commit this act. Whey did they feel it was ok. Why did they, as you say, want to humiliate her? Why did they have a fundamental lack of respect for her? It's not as simple as slut-shaming. If you just chalk it up to them being monsters, you already lost.
Learning from the mistakes of others is a huge way humanity learns. I'm not sure how you can think raping a woman isn't a mistake..it was the biggest mistake they will ever make. If by "mistake" you actually mean "accident", then I agree, it was no accident.
There was a room full of normal, young adults at the scene. Standing an watching a rape, and laughing, is also a monstrous act right? When do we want to start learning about what and why this happened, and more importantly, how we prevent it from happening the next time?
'What happened' is that society produces boys like this through making rapists out to be sympathetic characters and through blaming the victim for their rapists choice; the ideas that you are putting forward promote that thinking. There are plenty of normal men and boys who don't go around raping people. If you do choose to rape someone, you are a monster. Choosing to invade someone's body without their permission is monstrous.
I wonder if you were the Jane Doe or someone you love, if you wouldn't think that those boys were monstrous.
Sonnie Wills Well Sonnie all I can say is that in my view, life and human interaction are MUCH more complex then you seem to want to admit. When someone does something monstrous, it behooves us to determine how that individual managed to commit an act that the rest of us would never commit. Once we have made that determination, it behooves us to share this information with others who might commit such an act under similar circumstances, in the hopes of stopping future heinous acts. Simply labeling the criminal who committed the act a "monster" and shutting the door is a recipe for disaster. Perhaps you have heard the saying "Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it". Learning isn't always pretty, or easy, but it is necessary.
Ravinian Thanks - now I won't have to type all of that !!!
I wish the world saw these horrific events from this perspective
I never heard about this, but holy shit it's depressing and horrible. And the comments section is almost just as bad with people STILL trying to blame the girl who was UNCONSCIOUS WHILE TWO PEOPLE RAPED HER. Wtf do you not understand about rape is rape, AND IT IS NEVER THE VICTIM'S FAULT?? Jesus, and this is WHY we still need feminism!!
I personally live in Steubenville and it was ridiculous how our town was divided by people thinking those boys did nothing wrong. However, I think the majority were defending that girl and many people peacefully protested to get justice for her.
Just by total accident did I find your site. I am 61 years old. I can only wish that someone like you had been available all those years ago for young women (and men) so this information was communicated. None of this was available to our generation, You are doing such important work! I commend you for your courage and honesty. Sex no longer must be shameful or scary. Thank you!
This video is a 100% right. No means no. And if they can't say no it's rape. Rape Is Never The Victim's Fault. And That Is A 100% Truth.
Laci love you, but sadly ideals and reality don't always match. Reality is women are mistreated every day and looked down upon as sexual objects because of how they dress or act. It's completely wrong and we shouldn't stand for it. But until that battle is won, we must continue to look out for our safety.
I've seen videos like this and other actions create this culture where people have become so blinded to this ideology that they refuse to look into safety and lash out at anyone who discuses potential actions the victim could have taken as victim blaming. This culture of overly accusing others of victim blaming has forced people to become blinded to safety. It's very concerning and potentially dangerous. Your heart is in the right place, but I fear for the safety of those watching this and misinterpreting what you're saying.
It would be one thing if the was no evidence to prove what happened and it was just "he-said she-said" blame game, then I would understand the sympathy for them. It's those situations that lead to false rape accusations.
But If there is evidence to prove that all this horrible shit that they did is true (peeing on her, having sex with her while passed out, denying rape while raping, etc.), then those two deserved the be punished to the full extent of the law. And the people who watched while this happened should be charged with accessory it sexual assault. That's disgusting.
well said in this video! i couldnt have said it better myself!! I cant stand when people say "oh she deserved it"...uhh no like you said people can be raped anywhere at anytime no matter how they are dressed and where they are. Sure you may be more likely to and putting yourself in a bad position by being passed out drunk. But almost all of us at one point or another has been passed out drunk let be honest. Also she was young we have all made stupid mistakes that put ourselves in danger when we were young. Yes saying no and still going is rape but so is not being able to comprehend whats going on or not saying yes!! This happens alot for kids too where people say ohh she didnt say no and think its ok to rape because the kid was tricked and/or couldnt comprehend what was going on because they were too young to understand what they were doing which is why consent age is 16 usually. Also I cant believe people blame the girl for this because she was passed out drunk. That poor girl did not only get raped but she got emotionally abused by everyone that was there and emotionally abused by people around the world saying it was her fault and saying "poor rapist" etc. This situation really makes me think our society and humanity is a bunch of sadistic people. But you have lifted my mood because your videos and way of thinking on sex and society is exactly how i feel and makes me not loose faith yet on humanity. Thank you for educating others and help others.
This is one of my favorite videos. SLAY, LACI.
You don't see people taking money that a bank accountant is working with because, hey, it's out in the open, right?
You don't see people eating food that someone's cooking because, hey, it's available and edible, right?
When someone get's robbed, you don't say, "Hey wait, was their expensive TV in full view? If so, it's the victim's fault, not the robber's."
*****
You don't punish someone for not locking their house down.
*****
Is it even? I thought it was only illegal to buy it. I don't know because I live in France. And who the fuck has never got drunk before 18? Or 21 (HAHAHA) for 'Murica.
I hate people. So much. "Oh no! These poor boys have been convicted of rape! Their futures are ruined!"
Yet no one mentioned the girl. No one mentioned how her heart must be breaking, how she will be scarred and will never be able to fully trust people again.
This is bullshit. Total bullshit.
Consent is yes. Simple as that. YES. Both people HAVE to say YES. BOTH.
And it's a little more complicated than that, considering we are talking about criminal actions here.
Also, Fox news talked about the girl. I know, what twilight zone crap did we just enter?
in the Middle Ages when a men rapped a someone they would cut of his genitals.
MISSING THOSE OLD DAYS XD
Diede Venderbosch You mean the days where you got your hand cut off for theft and women burned alive after being accused of being a witch?
Glad to see you miss those days.
dragonheart967 IM JUST JOKING but i do think that the punishment of men acting with 'permission' should be higher than 1 year
Diede Venderbosch This isn't the standard, it's the fact that the court was lenient on the boys because of their social status. Like I've been saying in all my posts, it's all bias and favoritism. Them getting a single year is fucking stupid, I agree, but it wasn't a matter that rape wasn't taken seriously, they just didn't want to convict these boys.
Some of these comments are absolutely shameful. Drinking in excess is of course an inherently more unsafe behavior than drinking in moderation, but nobody ever has the right to say that someone who has made that decision has somehow forfeited their right to choosing to have sexual intercourse or not...are you kidding me? We should not have to be teaching how to avoid rape (which is of course usually untrue tactics that just make us feel safer) we should be teaching how to not rape, and how to see rape as absolutely unacceptable; emphasize the importance of explicit consent and STOP victim blaming.
But how is that going to help? The vast majority of cases are not accidents or cases of ignorance, most of them are done while the rapist knows the full actions of what they are doing. education is going to do NOTHING to solve these cases. At least teaching people to drink moderately and safely will lower the rates of people being raped while severely drunk, like this girl.
Teaching people the importance of consent is beating a dead horse. It will solve almost nothing, and we remain at square one, which is that we have rapists.
dragonheart967 Don't get me wrong I do not think that people shouldn't be taught moderation in terms of alcohol! That is definitely a good thing to be taught. To be clear I am NOT saying anyone should binge drink and see it as an not a risky behavior, because it is, but having sexual consent taken away should not have to be seen as a normal consequence of it.
Further, unfortunately I think we will always have rapists. But, how we treat them as a society can change, especially in cases like this. Because this girl was engaging in risky behavior, it is "her fault" that they were so absolutely overcome with desire to rape her, pass her around, take pictures, and generally treat her unconscious body with absolutely no respect? And it's a tragedy their football careers are ended? No, they should be treated with the shame they deserve, and receive psychological help. I don't think that generally that education is to stop the rapists, but to allow those who already realize that rape is not acceptable to see exactly why, and minimize blaming the victim for something that is never their fault.
AsleepOrDeadXoXo Now I agree with you on the fact that we should have treated those boys with the shame they deserved, I have to disagree with the root problem. In this case, it isn't so much as victim blaming as they are trying to completely excuse they boys actions. What I mean by this is that it is a case of favoritism, where these people would have come to these boys defense no matter what the crime was.
I have already brought up a similar case, which was how Brian Deneke's murder was handled and his killer, a high school football player, walked with only a probation. In short, the lawyers immediately attack the girl's character to make the actions of the boys not as bad. It's a typical and well used tactic in our modern justice system, and it goes without saying that it is also underhanded.
This rape case is not evidence of any rape culture, but shows the blatant bias we are subjected to when someone we like or favor is called out for a crime. The workings of a faulty system.
In our society, we already show that rape or any unwanted sexual advances are bad. Very few shows or movies even have show these cases, but when they do, they either demonize the fuck out of them, or the perpetrators of such actions are virtually crucified.
dragonheart967 rape education does work. Read about the Don't Be That Guy campaign in Canada & while its true rapes are not caused by misunderstandings research shows most rapists don't see themselves as rapists.
xValetinax
I don't see how saying that rapists not seeing themselves as rapists is evident of anything other than a justification or downplay of what they did. Every killer isn't going to agree or admit that they are deprived monsters who enjoy killing. Rapist itself is a more damning title than you know, and I don't blame those people trying to claim they are not.
And this doesn't help when in America, we saturate the term rape to encoumpas anything that makes one party uncomfortable.
And using a case in Canada isn't really that helpful when talking about the country that has the highest crime rate of all the 1st world countries and holds 1/4 of the world's incarcerated. Like I said, education can help cases that stem from ignorance, like what a lot of shit from Canada is, but in the US, not so much.
Rape doesn't have to be penetration. It's just any form of sex act against someone's will.
Oh my god thank you for saying that
+Brianna Orlando
You're wellcome😃
+fotofobiska fågeln Rape is a type of sexual assault usually involving sexual intercourse or other forms of sexual penetration perpetrated against a person without that person's consent., It does need to have penetration by definition, forced roleplay or S&M, which is a sex act, isnt rape. thats just being forced to do something, harassment or assault in such, not rape
I don't know what the laws in your country are but where I live it says in the lawbook that rape is to by violence or threat force someone to sexual activity. It doesn't matter what sex act it is.
i dont know what kind of law book you're looking up, but this is by definition, the use of violence or threat force doesnt even need to be there to be consider as rape, Statutory rape is a kind of rape remember? so having sex with someone below the age of consent is illegal, but that'd mean they have to have intercourse, what does intercourse have? Sexual intercourse - sexual contact between individuals involving penetration. a lot of the time, its not even with threat force or the use of violence, someone could be drunk (i say drinking til you pass out is stupid anyway), penetration would entitle rape, carrying someone who's drunk on your back, (you'd be touching their butt if by chance) is not.
so instead of trying to insult someone with, "i dont know what laws in your country are..." and try to have a conversation.
That poor guy that shot that other guy in the face. He was so good at math and was going to be an account, but now he has to give all that away because he shot a guy in the face. We don't even know why that guy was outside smoking weed with his friends anyways. This all could have been avoided if he were in bed where he should have been. #blamingthevictim #rapelogic #bullyvictimlogic #criminalizingthevictim
clsisman Yep. People always love to blame the victim it's just easier.
Damn... we had the same story in Russia last year :( 16-year-old, 6 guys, drugs, alcohol. Group rape, they also made pictures and videos and uploaded it on the Internet. Nobody knows if the girls actually took drugs. On the one hand, she was unconscious. On the other hand, I read they didn't find any drugs in her blood. Anyway, after what they did, these guys threw her, naked, to the stairs, and somebody (like a neighbour) raped her too. She and her mum went to the police after that, but these guys have rich parents, so they maybe won't be charged.
The worst part of it is a reaction of sociely. So sick! It makes me want to puke.
I'm not a Christian at all. I just want bad people to die. Like, urgently.
I live here & this was what made me realize I'm a feminist
The part I vehemently disagree with: "So long as their personal safety isn't at risk." If you can watch a girl getting raped without putting your "personal safety" on the line, then you're not a man. I have seen people being people of both genders being harassed/attacked, and I've always put my safety at risk to do something about it. That's what any man should do.
Please reproduce so that there is more of you. Consensually of course though
Zach Plays Girls don't pay any attention to me :P
***** I'm starting to think that people might be being sarcastic now.
+Ministro Infernale no honestly more people need a mindset like you a lot of people just think it's ok cause boys will be boys or whatever but you're right
Kaitlyn Whitmer Date? :P
Not defending what these guys did it was wrong 100%. But in hindsight this girl should not have gotten so drunk or at least her friends should have helped her before she passed out.
WOW... did you miss the point or what.
Crystal Owens Of course not like I said I'm not defending what these guys did. It's terrible for sure but that doesn't mean I'm going to advocate irresponsible drinking.
Stop justifying rape as if this is the girl's fault. The whole fucking video is talking about it. Anyone should have the right to get drunk as fuck without having to worry about people coming up and abusing her and raping her.
Just stop. Please. Stop. Watch the video again. And again. And again. And again, until you realize that what you just said is the point of the video and her examples of the people who fuel this are saying the exact thing that you just said. Read the tweets that she posted in the video. They are exactly what you just said and it's disgusting. So stop.
So basically a guy who walks drunk in a dark street and gets robbed, it's his own fault cause you know... He shouldn't have done that, so the thieves aren't really the culprits ? And they'll win the trial if there is one ? Sure...
Of course I see your point and of course, carefull behavior can prevent some of these events to happen, that still is NO FRAKKING EXCUSE for the culprits.
And a lot of people seem to think "well these guys just followed their instincts and the girls are at fault." (but I think it wasn't what you meant here.)
What is absolutely right in what you say is about her friends.
Gosh how can they now look themselves in a mirror ?
Mohamedalielmomo right valid point and I agree but at the same time we should be aware of our own safety and the safety of other people that's really all I'm trying to convey. It really sucks but this world Is full of twisted people and yes we need to stop them and expose them. However, we should still be aware of what's happening around us so that we can try to prevent any more casualties.
THANK YOU LACI
what we need is punishment hard enough to actually stop the crime, i can tell you right now a lot less rapes would happen in places like college if the punishment was castration, and i mean for all rapists. especially when the evidence against them is irrefutable like it was in this case.
we live in a society where a victim is blamed for being attacked, what if we did that for every crime.
"oh that child dresses to provocative in that church dress no wonder she was molested"
"no wonder that man had all his things stolen, if he didn't work so hard to have a nice home and nice things then people wouldn't have stolen from him"
"of course that guy got murdered, it was his own fault for being annoying and dating a girl some other guy wanted"
or in a famous case:
"of course those two teens torched and killed a toddler, if that 3 year old hadn't been so pathetic and weak then they wouldn't of wanted to kill the little ankle biter"
does ANYONE see my point?
***** castration is not torcher, its the same as a woman getting her tubes tided. and so you say that if a woman drinks she should be raped as punishment, nice
***** i didn't say anything about a girl meeting a guy off the net. and saying that what a girl does is wrong because she got raped IS victim blaming. what happens if a girl works at night and has to walk home? so what she isn't allowed to have that job or she has to sleep there?
i never said education was needed and i never said we should tell rapists not to rape, i said a harder punishment is needed and it is.
where i am the punishment is so lax criminals literally laugh at it on the news and even they say it needs to be harder.
and both of these responses only prove the point that people automatically jump to victim blaming.
according to this criminals deserve more rights than their victims and its the victims fault for "giving them the opportunity"
and according to these people women should not do anything that would make a person want to rape her or be in any situation where a rape CAN occur.
like for example: work at night,
go out after dark,
dress in anything others then nuns clothes,
enter certain areas, drive, or call a cab,
call the police for help,
attempt internet dating,
shop in shopping centers,
take her kids to a park,
exercise at a gym or just go jogging,
drink, go to the movies,
park in a car park,
take any kind of public transport,
go to college tafe or any kind of school,
live anywhere on her own,
go to church,
join the army,
be anywhere without a male chaperone,
she really shouldn't even leave the house, or step out her door,
oh and of course rape can happen during a home invasion too,
so what? we lock all women up in a safe room?
or shall we all just turn into a muslim country because that's really what you're suggesting considering its the exact same things they do.
and the true point is that even if a woman complies to all of these things and more she could STILL get raped.
so in the end what we truly need is a harsher punishment and for people who rape and to stop blaming the victim.
by telling women that they need to be more careful you are making a rapist think that its ok to rape someone, "oh its not my fault they should have been more careful"
instead of saying rape is horrific and wrong you are saying oh well she was out after dark she should have expected it.
THAT is what is wrong with this entire system. and until THAT is fixed raped will only become more common and terrifyingly more accepted.
AlexReynard you clearly dont know what proper castration is, its done with a chemical and can be reversed.
its the same thing, its basically the same chemical
yay let's pull out some fake statistics!
Would this particular act, which was verified by a court of law and reported by hundreds of news sources, be less appalling if this only happened half as much? That's the argument you're making, that if we had half as many rapes, or even one tenth, that a culture that supports them or a legal system that gives a slap on the wrist for them is just fine. Its not fine. Rapists are subhuman scum, and you are getting their back. Well done.
sean rodgers Rapists are scum no doubts about that and I am not backing them. How ever I hate disinformation even more...
"A lie told often enough becomes the truth." - Vladimir Lenin
Just because a study/stat has been used or broadcasted over 9000 times it doesn't mean it is true.
The 1 out of 6 women get raped stat is based on a very questionable CDC survey in which they asked women things like “have you ever had sex while drunk” and “have you have had with somebody who made promises you knew weren't true”. A yes answer was counted as rape/sexual assault. You want to talk about rape culture? Go ahead! But stick to the facts, not lies.
*****
All those things do constitute rape, as Laci explained in her video! And every statistic is from some kind of study. So if we can't get stats from a study, what are the facts in your opinion? The exact true number will never be found, since surveys are always susceptible to error, and the numbers change every second in the world! Does that mean we should stop talking about statistics at all?
I hate to switch sides like this, but Dragon is right at least in theory that we should analyze the nature of a study before accepting it wholeheartedly. This is also why studies must be replicated to be accepted as representing fact, why peer review is applied to studies before they are published, and why meta-studies, which analyze large groups of studies and draw conclusions by comparison, are the best form of data.
This is a bunch of apologistic woman hating bullshit and you're not fooling anyone. FYI.
I wish I'd been at that party. Those guys wouldn't have "walked" into their trial. When I heard about it I imagine my niece who at the time was just 2 years younger. How easily it could have been her. There is a reason I ALWAYS answer when she or any of my female friends call me. In this society they could be a target at any time and who knows how they'd react. I've always told all my friends call me anytime you NEED to for whatever reason.
But, yeah. If I ever witness anything like that I will not just stand by no matter what the risk to me. No one (man or woman) should ever be sexually assaulted,
Ugh WHY?! Since WHEN have social norms become so fucked up that they say it is okay to treat someone who isn't even an adult yet like an animal prostitute? This is why I hate social norms for America.
You mistake what the social norms are. It's not saying it's okay to treat someone like a "animal prostitute," just that it instead favors some over others, even when the more favored are in the wrong, and if it means trampling over the little people.
dragonheart967
Dude, yes it is. A social norm is a group-held belief about how one should behave. I major in sociology, so I do know what I'm talking about.
Azariah Box Did you read my comment? I said it was a social norm, I just said you misread it, and told you what the social norm actually was.
Oh, okay. Yeah, I did misread your comment, sorry about that. :) Thank you for pointing that out though, I appreciate it.
I wonder....Is this just entirely due to the bystander effect, or are there other factors in play too?
There are soooo many problems in this video besides just rape and rape culture. No one will disagree with you that Ma'lik and Mays raped that girl in Steubenville. They did, and they probably deserve a harsher sentence than they got, but once again, that is a related but different litigation issue.
Another social issue (that I honestly wish you had talked more about) is binge drinking and partying. While I definitely DO NOT believe that girls (or men) should be raped for drinking or dressing provocatively, it still leads to situations where those incidents are more likely. We need to reduce incidences of binge drinking that lead to issues like rape and auto accidents.
There's just SOOO many issues in the Steubenville rape that it could literally be seen as a microcosm of American life and culture.
You know this, Laci, so I wish you would have touched on that more in the video.
You know I was thinking of commenting the same thing. Again, I agree that a woman should never be in danger of rape, but saying that should be able to be as drunk as you want is where I was like "Whoa Laci, no."
As for dressing, that's less of an issue for me, but the drinking thing really bothers me. It is not OK to drink that much, man or woman. Please drink responsibly, and that fixes a lot of these situations.
Pawkeshup Yes, the binge drinking problem is very pressing and needs to be taken into account.
This reply is directed at Nolan Cook and Pawkeshup and anyone else who is interested. Sorry the post is rather long - I didn't mean to write an essay but I wanted to be as clear and elaborate as I could. I still probably skipped some things, but alas.
It's fine to encourage people to use alcohol responsibly, or to otherwise act in ways that protect personal safety. That's definitely something that should be promoted, in the same way that safe sex would. But I think we need to separate two issues here, issue 1 being rape culture, and issue 2 being personal safety and responsibility.
As Laci explains, we live in a rape culture. One of the aspects of rape culture is that when a rape happens, people tend to put a lot of focus on the victim and their actions: What were they wearing? Had they been drinking? What kind of place where they at, and with whom? If any of these questions are answered with things that are considered risky, irresponsible, or ill-advised, then many people tend to go "o yeah, well, that's why it happened, it's to be expected". This line of reasoning fits within issue 2, that of personal safety and responsibility. People choose this line of reasoning because they like to believe in a "just" world, or at least a world where as long as you act the right way, you are safe. But this is not the world we live in. Unfortunately anyone can fall victim to rape, and no-one is really completely safe.
To combat rape culture and rape itself, we should talk more (much, much more than we currently do) about issue 1, which is rape culture itself, instead of issue 2. After all, what happened is that an awful person saw a possible victim and raped them. That's what we're talking about here: a rapist who, with their actions, raped. We need to focus on those actions if we want to stop them from happening.
An important reason why we should focus on issue 1 here and not issue 2 is because of victim blaming. By changing the topic of discourse from the crime of rape to how drunk the victim was, or how you think people's drinking habits should be, you are changing the focus from the actions of rapists to the actions of (potential) victims. The spotlight is removed from the rapists and put on the victims instead, and instead of talking about how rape is wrong, people talk about drinking habits and clothing choices. The actions of the rapists are pretty much neglected. Moreover, by talking about responsible drinking, you are not only putting a spotlight, but also putting responsibility on the victim, and ergo taking at some of the responsibility away from the rapists. And that's the highway road to victim blaming, and the first step towards excusing rapists altogether. It's in the language, and it's in people's minds, and you need to be aware of this.
I know the things you say come from a good place where you want to avoid that people get raped, and that's nice of you, But talking about people drinking responsibly to avoid getting raped is like telling people to never leave the house to avoid getting raped. It's just not a suitable approach to stop rape and rape excusing. The main, overarching message should be that people shouldn't rape. Thát's the message that needs to be spread to avoid rape culture.
It's certainly good to talk about what people could do to protect their health and safety, like responsible alcohol consumption. There's a time and place for that, but it's not here and now. In a case like Steubenville, the focus should really be on the actions of the rapists and not of those on the victims.
EllaABo
I certainly never blamed the victim, I actually think the perpetrators of this heinous act should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I also believe, however, that men AND women need to attempt to teach their children (of both gender) that binge drinking is NOT a safe or acceptable activity in any way, shape or form.
That's what I was getting at.
Nolan Cook Yeah, that's cool and all, but why do you find it so important to talk about that now? Let's imagine a situation in which this girl wasn't raped, but instead stabbed 37 times in the chest. Everything else is the same: she is still alive (it's a miracle!), she was moved locations during the parties it happend at, many people were watching and didn't attempt to stop it from happening or even called the police. If that had happened, people would be shocked, disgusted, outraged! People would be wondering why the fuck people would do such a thing to anyone, and why no-one helped! But, most importantly, no news channels would have talked about whether or not she was drunk, no-one would try to imply that maybe it was a bit her fault because she could have prevented being stabbed 37 times in the chest if she hadn't been drunk, and no-one in these comments would be trying to promote responsible alcohol consumption like you are doing. After all, the alcohol is not the point of the story or even really relevant to the crime. Stabbing someone is an awful crime, and everyone knows that. Rape is also an awful crime, and everyone knows (or should know) that too. So I ask you: why is alcohol suddenly a "reasonable" topic of conversation in the case of rape? (Let me spoil the answer for you: it's because of rape culture.)
We do not live in a rape culture. To say, that we do is an insult to all the women around the world, who actually live in contries, where a woman have no right to say no to a man. Contries where a woman gets punished for being a rape victim. To compare those problems to our first world problems are to neglect the horrible crimes happening every day. And I think, that it is very unfair.
I'm not familiar with this specific case, so I cannot comment on the case itself.
I agree, that a woman should never have to worry about rape. Just like I should never have to worry about violence when going out. But that is not the world we live in. Educating people can most likely bring down the numbers (I think that it already does), but we can never get to a point where people don't have to fear crime and violence. There will always be some people who will do the crime anyway. You cannot reason with them.
Therefore you will always have to take precautions. Even if we killed the rapists when we caught them, they would have to do at least one rape to get killed.
So demanding that you should never haveto take precautions is not realistic.
What also really bugs me is, that you make it sound as if all men should be held accountable for the fact that rape happens.
Orla Conway
1. You make a very valid point about the American justice system. It is indeed broken, and it fails in a lot of ways.
If we accept that unsolved crimes is profe for a rape culture, then you also have to accept that there are a murder culture, since the murder rates are very bad as well. Same goes for violence. If you think, that this is due to the culture, you cannot limet it to "rape culture" it is a crime culture, or anarchy if you prefer that term.
I do not want women to "shut up" about rape. Rape should not happen at all, just like any other form of violence. When you say rape culture, you also say, that men in general tolerate rape. That is very sexist. If I bragged about having sex with a passed out girl, I would get punched in the face, and I should get punched in the face for that.
I might live in a very fluffy world, but I have never encountered these men in real life, who thinks it is cool or even okay to have unconsensual sex with a woman. I'm NOT saying, that they don't exist, but it is anti social behavior, and you cannot make every single man responsible for the fact, that these men exist.
2. Yes you do generalize a lot. And I really get the impression, that you dislike men a lot. You act as if I said, that education did nothing at all. I did not say that.
Orla Conway Few things. Rape jokes do not condone rape. More often than not, a joke about a certain subject does not condone that subject matter is the subject matter itself is negative. A joke about, lets say, murder, is the human mind forming a way to cope an otherwise ridiculous situation that we wouldn't be able to handle either way. It may range from playing off a serious ordeal, like a guy joking about a near death experience, or joking about rape, because we certainly don't understand how someone could force themselves onto another person. Albeit a number of jokes in any subject manner are tasteless or just morbid, and should just go right the fuck away, but the majority of rape jokes don't even have a female in the joke anywhere, mostly being about prison and Buba.
Feeling bad for a family member being accused of rape is not a bad thing. You are in a state of hindsight when you make that comment. At that point, it's just an accusation, and his raping a person has yet to be proven. You would certainly hope that your brother or son didn't rape a person, and that you wouldn't immediately believe some stranger claiming as such.
And sometimes, it is a person's fault for placing themselves in a position where they were absolutely defenseless. I hold myself to the same standards. If I go out drinking, I make sure I drink responsibly and make sure I am coherent to make sure I don't wake up in any other awkward situations, be it sex or something else. If I get passed out, I did go on and drank enough to pass out, that's on me. What anyone does to me in that state of mind is on them. That's the order of responsibility.
First off, how do you determine how many total number of rapes happen when only a specific number of them are reported? You can claim 1 of 100, or 99 of 100 are reported, I will call bullshit on all these numbers. You can not claim, with any accuracy, how many total number of rapes occur outside of what is reported. That's like claiming 60% of missing persons and who are never found, under any category or age group, have been murdered. You just can't claim such with any accuracy. As such, you can only properly claim that 3 out of 46 rapists are ever convicted.
As for the rest, like you said, 12 lead to an arrest and so on, and 9 of these ending up backed up, regardless is it holds any merit or not, cannot be linked to any rape culture. This is just the justice system, it's not perfect for gods sake. And remember, in the USA, we have a system called innocent until proven guilty. As such, the rapists guilt needs to be proven, it needs to be examined and evidence needs to come forth that proves his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. An accusation does not prove jack shit.
Also, before I go any further, do not pretend that cases being backed up and locked in file and never followed through is exclusive to rape. This happens to every other crime that needs to be reported. Some just don't get followed through, it's the result of a complex system. Don't just ignore the actual system and play the whole thing off as people being condoning rape.
Anyway, just because they can't prove the rapist did the crime is not evidence of a rape culture. Sometimes, they can't prove that someone committed a murder, that doesn't equate that our society condones murder. It's as though you have completely ignored the definition of rape culture you gave and are now using a completely different term. They are not normilizing the rape, they are not condoning it, and they are not excusing it. They just can't prove it! That is NOT rape culture. Rape, by it's nature, is difficult to prove, you can't just sit there and say that rape culture exists because rape happens, because that is exactly what you are trying to describe.
Besides, even using the Steubenville case, which I'm sure you would use as an example of rape culture, I would refer you to AlexRaynard's comment. As to my own explanation, these people were not excusing the rape. Yes, the rape was the crime, but they are not being lenient on the rapists because they consider rape a good thing, they are excusing the rapists for their position, for who they are. Again, I would once again bring up the case of Brian Deneke, and how his murderer walked without a a single day in prison. Is that a murder culture? No, because the murder was just the crime, while the people's reactions were not focused on the crime, they were focused on the character, the person who either committed the crime, or was the victim of it. Remember Micheal Jackson? Accused of all this child molestation and all, yet the majority of people were on his side. Sounds a bit like the people who lived in Steubenville, eh? Of course, in the Steubenville case, when people who did not share their bias saw this case, they didn't give a fuck about those boys. Anyway, after MJ's death, notice the public outcry and how we hunted down his physician? The case wasn't just any killing or murder, it was about MJ being the one killed. People were FURIOUS when Conrad got 4 years.
In short, it's all bias.
As for your second statement, way to generalize men. Sure, a social construct on how men should be exists, much like there exists one for women, but what you described is not the entirety of the male gender. Hell, some women follow this, because some of what you described is how it works in businesses, which is a very dog eat dog system heavily based on competition.
But the point is that crime exists, and rape is a crime. Sure, some education may subvert the occasion misunderstanding, but whether or not if the perpetrator is a monster or not is immaterial when the majority of these cases derive from people who just didn't care about the situation. We teach people murder is bad, yet it happens. We teach people theft is bad, yet it happens(albeit that a large number of these are out of necessity), more over, fraud and identity theft are known criminal offenses, yet it still happens. Lack of education is not why this happens, it's just shit that happens, because there are people either with a different mentality than you, a different upbringing than you, or maybe their brain works in a different manor than yours, education may help in the occasional case, but the majority just happens for reasons we can't hope to prevent. And again, this is not limited to rape, it's limited to crime. To exonerate rape from any other crime and to claim the our society treats rape any different than any other crime to the extent that we wouldn't view rape as a crime is just dishonest.
dragonheart967
Dam... You are doing a much better job at this than I am. You make me feel kind of lazy.
I appriciate it when I see someone doing a really god job like this.
kasper nielsen Much appreciated.
Michael Miller Hind sight is a bitch of a concept, isn't it? Remember our court of law? Innocent until proven guilty. As such, during these boys trial, people didn't pay attention to the rape. For fucks sake, man, it could have been cold blooded murder, and they would have been acting the same god damned way.
Orla actually was minimizing crimes, because Orla implied that we only act this way with rape cases, which is lust ludicrous. There are plenty of cases where someone either famous, they be movie star or professional athlete, they will be treated in a higher regard than you and I. It is social bias.
In this rape case, the people weren't focusing on the rape, they were focusing on the character. They didn't think the rape was acceptable, they denied that the boys ever raped. That was the mindset of these people. And this happens all the time for different types of crime. Focusing on the fact that it was rape is bloody tunnel vision, it is choosing to look at only a set property when you have an entire clusterfuck of issues going around. Again, this wasn't a case about rape to those people, it's about "some no-one" accusing the small town heros(football players in small towns are revered) of a serious crime, a crime in which I don't think these boys were capable of. That is is the mindset of these people!
Rape culture is when one of the few times guys actually get convicted for this shit is when there are literally thousands of pieces of video and textual evidence, and yet they still get sympathy and an extremely light sentence.
I shudder to think about what would have happened if there wasn't so much irrefutable evidence. Hell, they probably could have confirmed the semen was on her but without video I doubt this would have gone anywhere.
Those horrible guys would have probably tried to warp and deny this whole story if they weren't on tape, like was suggested in their texts. And now they're crying and apologizing? And not even for the horrendous way they treated this girl but for taking photos of it? Sounds like they're real sorry they got caught. Human trash.
What the hell were the rapists thinking? That they could just get away with it? WTF society!!!!!!!!!! And don't even get me started on the fact that people were sympathizing with the rapists!!! Like what the hell!
What she forgot to mention that rapists aren't always creepy, scary, old men. It can be a very innocent looking teenage girl. and it isn't always opposite gender. Please remember rapists don't just come in one stereotypical box.
The fact that no one did anything drastic when prosecuting them because they were on the high school football team is sickening. I dont care if the football program brings in a major amount of money into the community. If anyone rapes someone, drastic punishments have to be put in place. It is unacceptable. This whole situation is unacceptable. That is all.
everyone pretty much agrees that you should be held accountable for theft or murder. however, when it comes to rape, people think of sex which they associate with a pleasurable experience. that's why they tend to underestimate the toll it can take on the victim
I love what she said about how a woman should be able to be ass naked and drunk and she should never be punished with rape. Damn it, Lacey Green, I love you. :)
The response from the media in this case was fucking disgusting. People idolizing sports players to the extreme.
Did that seriously happen? Wow. Just wow.
Laci I love you, and I think your videos are great. Although, I disagree. We don't live in a rape culture. If we lived in a rape culture in America, rapist would walk free and keep committing the horrible crimes they do. They'd move around like pedophile priest did back in the day. Our generation seems to get the words consent and rape confused. A rapist doesn't care about how their crime is going to affect you. A person who ask for your consent, actually cares for your well being.
Laci...just came across your videos and I must say "bravo"....to have a woman actually laying down some FACTS...mind blowing...all of the subjects you touch on (totally pun intended) are things that all people, men AND women, need to know and discuss with their children and partners....get rid of all the stereotypes and actually rap about the subjects, for educational purposes only...OK, OK, quit jumping on my nutsack...I was just kidding...but for real...I stand and salute you sister! Keep up the good work and good times...wookiee out...
Personally, I think everyone should be careful about drinking. The fact that girls 'have' to be advised differently when they choose to do exactly the same thing any casual guy might do; hang out, drink, socialize- is the problem. Nothing wrong with 'be safe when you go out.' teaching people good habits when helping intoxicated friends or knowing your limit is always good practice.
It's the fact that women are more subject to that advice- and are even blamed for the consequences in the case of something happening. Might as well make 'getting drunk while being a woman' as a criminal offense, since it seems they are at fault for whatever happens to them...
Ok, here is my thoughts:
She shouldn't have gotten drunk
The boys shouldn't have raped her
She shouldn't have been raped just because she WAS drunk
The boys had a choice to rape her or drive her home
by the way, people out there rapping
My god... How can people watch? Leave alone do these things? I get pissed up when someone insults someone for no reason or bullying... And these people dont even stand up for her? That they dont have the bravery to do it, thats until there... BUT FILMING IT? i would be disgusted by myself...
I was sexually abused once. It was just me and a group of my friends. We were at the lake house we always go to, and I was very drunk. Nobody stopped the guy that did it, when I told him to stop, he told me that it was okay, and kept doing stuff to me. I tried pushing him away, calling for help, and none of my friends came. They only laughed about it the next day. I told a good friend about it a few days later. He was the only person i told for a long time, and he only thing he said was, "How could you put yourself in that position?" That was the last time i spoke to him. I put all my trust in him, and he basically blamed me for it. I couldn't believe it. I can't believe that people are blaming these girls for getting raped. The guy that did this to me was completely sober, and I was so intoxicated that I barely remember any of the night. But I said no! I called for help! I pushed him off me! I did everything I could to stop him, but in the end, I just couldn't. I just wish people would open their eyes and realize this. Rape is not a punishment.
In response to something Eric Taylor said I'm going to mention a specific act that happened to me. It happened with someone I was going to date, someone who was supposed to really care about me. He was too big for me and it hurt so I was trying to hold him back with my hand. He knocked it away and kept doing his thing. I started crying and went into the fetal position. His face told me that I was ruining the mood and he made me finish him off. Again this was supposed to be the beginning of a relationship. I had to bring this event up in an msn conversation with him. His reply "I feel bad about it now". Yes, he actually said "now". He didn't feel bad at the time. This is a sorta-typical guy. Please don't argue this point, men like this are the Norm. How men think needs to be changed. This is indeed the culture that has led to those teenage boys, and to the youth who got off because a father or uncle was connected in politics (where the passed out girl was left on her front porch in cold weather). There is indeed a problem with how men think. Crying and being in the fetal position isn't seen as "No" or IS seen as an inconvenience to the man's good time? That is the reality we have to combat. That leads to the rape culture we live in.
No, guys like that are not the norm. It may seem like that, but that's mainly because the men are are like that tend to be popular among women. Just because of your bad experience does not make you somehow an expert to generalize how men think and treat women.
Crying and being in a fetal position isn't seen as a "no", it's seen as a "back up and don't do shit" to the average person. The guy you got was an asshole who only saw you as a hole and not a partner. Once again, your bad experience does not show what the norm is, it merely shows a single case out of a number of cases we do not know, out of the entire population.
I'm sorry for your experiences, but your generalization of the way men think is a very poor one. One personal encounter isn't enough to make such over-arching claims about all men. The majority of men aren't rapists. I believe the rape culture we live isn't just about men thinking; it's indeed a cultural and social issue. I think a lot of people have a bad habit of throwing problems under the table and sugar coating them with religion or conserved, protective values. The world we live in is harsh and crazy. It shouldn't be so hidden; education is the key. Everyone of age to sex sex should have a clear, clear understanding of the consent required to engage sexually in a respectful, lawful manner. However, a large percentage of our culture looks down upon education like this. Ignorance takes precedence over facing the harsh realities, facing the dangers, and understanding what is safe and legal. It's a similar outlook for drug/alcohol use. A main argument is to say "drugs are bad; act like they don't exist" and nothing further. True understanding about complicated moral and controversial issues have to be accomplished for anything to get better. It's not enough to say "only bad people drink underage." Ideas like this only validate the ignorant claims that this girl deserved what happened. A better approach is to explore what happens when alcohol is involved; how does that affect one's consciousness and ability to defend one's wishes. Intoxication doesn't immediately strip someone of their human rights nor does it excuse oneself from illegal behavior. Points like these as well as countless others have to be addressed universally instead of ignored.
I just want to say right here and now, if something like this happens while I am around I WILL SPEAK up! And if people don't stop, I will call the police there and then. My sympathy to the guy who tried to speak up though. When I was that young I didn't have the self confidence to continue to do the right thing when nobody else would.
Laci Green, i truly wish more people see your videos because you rock and UGH IM DISGUSTED WITH THIS AND RAPE CULTURE yeah kthxbye
Also on news channels they just talked about how the rapists life's were ruined and how smart and shit they where
Yet no one word about the poor victim
Nope, on all the news channels I watched they said very little about the victem
I heard about a case where a girl, I think she was 14 but perhaps she was younger, was raped and sexually abused by one of her teachers. The Teacher only got I think it was like a month or 3 months in jail. The Lawyers and judges used things like, "Well she looks a lot older than she is" "Well she said yes" The thing is it was a significantly older person in a position of power taking advantage of a younger student. Things like this sicken me.
Reading some of these comments amazes me. Most of you don't even know the actual story of what happened in Stuebenville. I live a little less than an hour away. I'm amazed at that cities ignorance as well. They were high school football stars not frat boys. They had their futures looking bright but again let me emphasize the high school part. They messed up. They deserved to be tried as adults and sent to prison for the rest of their lives. They should be identified as sexual predators. That poor girl as poor as her judgement was to be at that party that night she didn't consent and is currently be punished by her hometown for those low lives behavior. That town should be burnt to the ground for making rape ok for football players. It is NOT normal to sexual abuse someone in any kind of situation. Rape is rape. End of story.
I never heard about Steubenville probably because I don't live in the USA I live in New Zealand? I have felt horrible about what happened to me but I never told anyone, I was at a party and my ex boyfriend (we'd only very recently split) was there and we were still friends. I got really drunk and passed out and later he admitted he had touched me down there and fingered me etc. I was horrified and it still makes me feel dirty and upset. At the time when I started crying and got upset when he admitted it he acted as though it was no big deal and got angry with me for being upset and apparenty "overreacting" :( I know this is long, sorry. I'm still friends with him today even though he did lots of horrible things to me.
I'm from about 15 minutes away from Steubenville,and to be honest, these kids didn't just rape a girl, they brought shame to everyone from our area, making it seem like we are all bad people and that the Ohio Valley is just a terrible place. I've lived here my entire life and now when I meet someone new that's not from the area, the looks i get are outrageous. We are not all like these stupid high school boys that go to a school that protect and support their bad decisions and terrible crimes.
Preach. I hate hearing people say that girls ask for it. I tried to bring up rape in class once and a guy in my class said that it's the girls fault. No I'm sorry it's not my fault that I dated a guy who forced me into letting him put his hands down my pants. A girl said that since I didn't say no, it's not rape. I'm sorry that he wouldn't let me say no and would keep asking, each time more violently, until I said fine...
I agree with everything you say Laci. Me and my mom were watching this on the news and my mom thought she shouldn't have been drinking anyway and she should have just said no. I was just like, WTF
I'm against rape period, one thing she neglected to mention was that the most condoned rape is that of a male by a female. If a 40 year old man has sex with a 15 year old he goes to jail, 40 year old female has sex with a 15 year old male and she walks free 9/10 times. There's also a problem in believing rape cases since there are so many women who do lie about it to get back at a n ex for something.
Something similar to this happened in a town close to mine. A group of football boys raped a girl and the entire town blamed the girl for it. It was sickening.
The same things happens in fraternities all the time. A girl gets raped and if she does tell, the entire Greek system will demonize her. If she doesn't tell, its because she doesn't want to lose friends.
Ms. Green, you are my leader. I look at your videos and I cant believe what I have. When I was treated less then a human, with anycase, or anyone was, you were there to tell me thats not okay. When everyone else is saying who cares and that its my fault. You are amazing. I love your videos, you have such great things to say and such a powerful voice.
This is why I love you, Laci. You're such an inspiration. How much better would the world be if everyone thought like you in this!
I like how she complains about slut shaming, at the same time as talking about this "male driven rape culture".
It's women who shame women for being sluts, not men.
I'm one guy who'll say Laci's 100% right through the entire video, and that anyone who could find fault with her statements or side with the rapists has the IQ of dryer lint.
There are TWO SEXES l, but MANY SPECTRUMS OF GENDER. Take Soc101, or even google.
Laci, I just discovered you and I LOVE you! We've gone so long saying, "no means no!", that maybe it needs to change to, "yes means yes!"
Hey Laci, anything about the rapists saying their "minds weren't developed enough" or some b.s. like that?
this is the first time i'm hearing about this story and one year is just horrifying for the girl to know that society thinks its ok for this to happen to her and that she will live in fear for the rest of her life and the guys get off with one year! as a person who went though rape i know society looks down on rape victims we get painted and from others i've talked to they all feel exposed, and while some people go to jail for a short time the victims are in a prison of fear for the rest of there life's and that's just not ok. (sorry for the rant this just get on my nerves)
This reminds me of something my dad said "there are things people can do to make rape more likely to happen, like going to a frat party and drinking enough to sink the Russian navy, but no way in hell does that mean they deserved it"
We love you Laci. These videos are so important and it brings tears to my eyes that strong, awesome, intelligent, brave, (feminist!) women like you are changing the world and really truly HELPING people with each of your videos.Sex education is so important and it's really important for us to be able to let survivors of sexual assault know that there are people out there who believe them, support them, refuse to let the silence perpetuate, and aren't afraid of standing by their side against the hateful people who shame them.
Thank you for these important videos. I see (just in the comments!) how many people these videos help. It's really beautiful. xoxo
Love and agree with everything Laci said about this. Thank you for this.
I remember seeing a piece of advice telling women that they shouldn't walk anywhere alone, followed by the phrase "Stop Rape". I got so angry I could barely speak. The cause of rape is not women walking alone. The cause of rape is rapists.
What you read obviously wasn't on about who was responsible, it was talking about how one could possibly avoid being the target of a rapist. We know who causes rapes, but we cannot act on them preemptively because we don't know when a person is gonna commit a crime.
I heard about that and it's terrifying because I live close to Steubenville. I used to hang out around there all the time.
You have renewed my faith in human kind - especially the ones under 30 - thank you :)
this is terrifying...i'm 13 and this creeps me out! let's make a change for the better!
FUCK YES WTF IS RIGHT DAMN THIS IS EVERYTHING IMPORTANT I'VE EVER SAID TO ANYONE IN ONE VIDEO ON THIS TOPIC HELL YES