That was a powerful argument: men & women are designed as men & women, rather then having the "roles" of men & women applied to men & women arbitrarily.
Funny, the only thing I learned from watching the CT series about mars hill was that CT is a front for secular feminism with a very thin veneer of Christianity. I found myself kind of liking Driscoll, hearing the garbage they were spewing and the secular experts they used to make their feministic points, and had to check myself.
Interesting analysis. I think Driscoll, CT, and many in "urban mandate" crowd have contempt for missions and church planting in rural America. The idea is that "as goes [insert big city], so goes the nation", and that everyone looks up to these big cities in terms of adopting policy and culture. Therefore, rural communities are a waste of time as they are just downstream of the big cities. It sadly mirrors the general elitist sediments that people in rural America are second rate compared to well educated and affluential city folk.
Great comment. I do think that cities need churches and ministries and Christians intentionally living in them, but it’s a both/and to me w/r/t rural areas - which also need churches and Christians actually ministering to their neighbors.
@@billybob-wx2re sadly, this is true. I just finished a paper on the 3 aspects of being created in God’s image… I think if they were to be fully realized and understood, almost all of our problems would be solved… I’ll edit it and post it on my blog soon…
I live just 30 min south of Seattle. We homeschool our four kids and there’s no way we could afford to live in Seattle. We were also a part of an Acts 29 church (not Mars Hill) and I believe they pushed friendship evangelism and being on mission so much that they elevated the second greatest commandment above the first. And I believe it has resulted in a lack of fruitful mission (fear of man above God makes it hard to share the gospel) and why many Acts 29 churches have gone woke. Interestingly, I just found your content and it seems my husband and I have very similar church paths and theology as you. Thanks for all you do!
When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes. -Matthew 10:23 NKJV
I’m so thankful to find this content. Mark was very helpful in my early days of being a Christian and it’s nice to hear your fair and biblical perspective of the rise and fall of mars hill .. I’ve been challenged and my prayer is I can get my financial situation together asap so I can do it Gods way, and start and raise a family how God intended. This is war. 🔥🙏🏻
I really liked what you said at the end in particular about letting places like seattle and california and new york implode on themselves in the way the prodigal son did. I have not heard something like that before. Great video, thank you.
Interesting take on the situation. I can relate because I live in Oregon and work in Washington. Rural Oregon, but still suffer the negative effects of having Portland only 80 miles away. By the grace of God my wife works in the home. Still working on the private/homeschooling part but hoping to get there.
Serving as a missionary in an urban context in Asia--the church here has been in decline for years, and young people aren't getting married or starting families--would love to get your book when it comes out, it would be a valuable resource for the church in Korean, Japanese, and Chinese.
Thanks for sharing the info about some areas being more suited to live out the one income homeschool lifestyle. We learned this the hard way moving from a smaller city to a major city. I thought we could recreate our life there but the people were just different. Maybe this podcast will help families to make more informed choices before uprooting their family like we did or encourage them to leave the cities and move to where it can be easier to have a fulfilling family life and live in a supportive community.
Mind you Mars Hill was not the only church Driscoll had to leave, don’t forget the second church he joined asked him to leave as well. If you do just a brief research on Driscoll you probably will come to the conclusion he’s liar, he never was a Calvinist. He ran with questionable crowds who today are all defunct some thrown out of their churches. Bottom line Driscoll was and is never to be trusted.
I always thought it was rather well known that Driscoll was Amyraldian. Maybe to the "Arminians are basically Calvinists" group, Driscoll is indistinguishable, but he's not even fully stereologically a "Calvinist", let alone Reformed in the slightest.
@@shenanigansofmannanan He has proved himself unqualified for ministry. If he appears truly repentant, he can be restored as a brother. Being a brother doesn't mean he should be allowed in the position of church leadership.
I wanted all of the things with regard to marriage and family. I was saved at 20. From my culture and family background, marriage and childbearing were always considered of great value. Marriage never came. The Christian culture into which I came did place a high value on marriage and children and modelled male eldership. It was very much the norm. It can be alienating to only hear that getting married young and having children are good when you have never opposed these things but you never received them. We need to also preach a Biblical view of singleness, looking at how God has a good purpose for this in His Kingdom, acknowledging that there are challenges but great blessings if God calls you to this way of life.
I appreciate your comment. While we ought to encourage marriage and help young adults to find quality spouses, we need to understand that some adults may not have that opportunity and recognize how they can fellowship and serve in community. I think the conflict is that there is almost unanimous consensus in American culture to not marry until you have met your personal goals (college, career, travel, etc.), which has moved to late 20s or beyond. God's principles are often counterculture. While we ought to embrace them, we should always remember that not everyone will find that ideal nuclear family. God bless!
I think you are mistaken. The problem in today's churches is that they don't emphasize marriage enough. The goals of young men and women in the church, seem to be the same goals of the rest of the world- to have a nice career and be financially successful. If pastors spent more time encouraging young women to marry, we wouldn't have so many young adults struggling with temptation and fornication.
Brilliant piece. You've nailed it, brother. Sad though. Let's all learn from this. Thank you for a very mature production. Christian maturity is rare. [Pastor from South Africa]
I think your assessment on Mark Driscoll is exactly right. His insistence on biblical masculinity, fully fleshed-out in Seattle is like training well-digger's and insisting that they do it in a desert.
Isn’t it a bit of a case of Muzzling the Ox?? What Discol did to his churches and those Elders. Part of the fruits of their labor, where great joy is found, is in that teaching and lending his direct insight to his own sheep. He stripped them of that fruit, and therefore also that joy. Which is VERY unbiblical. Men working to build up their flock should be enjoying the fruits of their labor. It keeps them motivated and content, and therefore also herds away sin.
"I'm more interested in Christianity yesterday" I found that line particularly funny, not that that was your intention, but I do love church history, and MarsHill is certainly some fascinating church history! Thanks for this, I have found the Podcast on MarsHill very interesting as I came into the faith many years ago through a Charismatic and then Alliance experience. Finding a solid doctrinally sound church has become, in my estimation more difficult. For years I was a flat screen guy and was able to find some good teaching. I thank God for the men he continues to grow and mature in the faith. Men like you, Eric Con, Brian Suave, and of Course that rukus crowd in Moscow! Up in Canada God has been raising a few trouble makers which has been encouraging. Shalom brother
Listening to this now it seems IHOP Kansas City was their due to a prophecy that God would send revival there. Different ministry but similar in that way.
Absolutely agree 100% with what your saying I heard Mark Dricoll over the past several months on u tube and I was praising God for a man to boldly stand up and Speak to men, Biblically I have been saved for 47 yrs. God has showed me all of this , for years ,been married 52 yrs. Got married very young, God has Blessed my family ,faithful to everything your saying, living by biblical principles against all odds ,God has provided in honest, miraculous ways , have 4 children all grown. 14 grandchildren and 4 more great grand children. One income family , homeschooled our children, a non Christian husband ,I got saved first , but God absolutely kept us ,and my husband after 25 yrs, recieved Christ and the Lord has Blessed us ,kept us ,saved our children , God is faithful to His word, period. We live in Washington state .
I am not sure that the inheritance refers to wealth. I think spiritual wealth is closer to the mark. Jesus left the greatest inheritance to His followers but he left no worldly wealth to anyone. Saying men have to make a lot of money seems shallow with many counter examples in the Bible from Adam to Jesus and the disciples.
I was thinking about moving the family to TX, but I'm finding the property tax is absolutely insane. If we want a tiny homestead within a couple hours of the beach, maybe 2 acres or so, well the property tax itself is about as high as my entire monthly mortgage payment where I live now! You know what they say about property tax? If you don't own your land, you're just leasing it from the state. "Oh, but there is no state tax!" That's great. My state tax where I am is about $1500. My property tax in TX would cost that every 5 or 6 weeks. Hardly a good trade. I'd love to move to the big cowboy gun ranch state, but the cost seems ridiculous. Am I missing something?
As a lifelong Texan, I'd say you're correct. The problem is this nonsense "lesser of two evils" voting pattern. Democrats are socialists who will tax you 90%. Republicans are phony conservatives who will tax you in the most hidden ways. And Libertarians believe TAXATION IS THEFT, and it is. But Texas being a red state, Republican voters and Independents will seldom to never vote for Libertarians because, "lesser of two evils, can't let the Democrats win." And will say lines like "but at least there is no state income tax," as a way to abdicate their responsibility from voting for Republicans who govern like socialist Democrats.
In Seattle you are bang on. Major darkness in Seattle. even the weather causes suicide, the grunge scene, the chop, the drugs, the birthplace of starbucks, yada yada. spent one day there on a road trip, wife and I could literally feel it.
@@brettmagnuson8318 I’ve driven through Portland and it honestly felt like a third world country with all the homeless and trash everywhere. There also was something evil about seeing the word “heathen” graffitied everywhere.
I live in a suburb north of Seattle and belong to a very large fellowship. The pastor/teachers there are solidly biblical and have resisted compromise with the culture. And yes, for an ex-Californian the weather is difficult to take.
I was not an avid follower of Driscoll's teaching but how is he or Mars Hill church to be accountable for Seattle's infrastructure? The mission of the church is not to "christian-ize" the culture, and therefore be reconstructionists. Or have I misinterpreted the goal of Post-Millinealism? The mission of the church is to proclaim and advance the Gospel one soul at a time. Thus changing culture. Again, not making laws for a kingdom that is temporal, secular, and ever growing wicked. Jesus said His Kingdom is not of THIS world. Again, we call people out if this world and into His. This world and all its sin is going to pass away.
Actually the Bible teaches that the Creation will be renewed. I'm going to assume that includes this planet. So in the end this cosmos more belongs to the Church than the unbeliever.
This does a massive disservice to all the people who were hurt at Mars Hill. We can all debate our theological beliefs all day long but this video is embarrassing and just extends the hurt that so many are still dealing with
Great info! I am down here in Scottsdale AZ and a bunch of things help Mark and his church here vs Seattle. To bad houses have gone for 200k to 800k around his church here if you wanted to live close. But here you can live farther and and drive in as well. A nice thing is the State lets you out tax dollars to private school and home school which is nice, so your taxes are not wasted if you don’t go to public school.
When the West Roman Empire began to collapse I wonder did the Christian at the time began to move from Rome and other Roman cities to the countryside. I live in the DC area and have been thinking hard to move out of the immediate area. Toward Western Virginia or West Virginia. The area is too left wing and most churches are dead spiritually.
I can understand Pastor Driscoll's frustration with what he sees as the feminization of the contemporary evangelical church. And yet the solution isn't "biblical bootcamp" but rather a Gospel calling to follow Christ.
I wish more women understood God holds men to a certain standard. All of these men who have come along and lead people astray with false gospels and bad preaching, will be held accountable. Why on Earth would you want to take all of that stress and strain on yourself? Oh right, no real woman of God would. I'm fine back here taking care of my husband and family. Leave all that extra work and stress for the men. 😂
Because that's the curse of Eve's daughters.... they will desire to rule over their husband's... and single women desire to rule over men in the world...
This is post 2024 Stronger Men Conference. Wanting to learn more about Mark D, i happened onto the CT hit piece. I was outraged. As you have said perfectly, they’re deconstructing Christianity itself! It’s a 12 hour straw man argument using Driscoll as its whipping boy and a lot of hyper-sensitive me too’s whining about being reprimanded or fired, complete with scary backdrop music! I was in a very similar situation and was fired. Guess what? I survived and I’m still friends with the man that fired me! And he’s still ministering and saving hundreds from the culture of death that’s all around us. I’m not defending Driscoll. These folks came in freely and the back door was always open. If Christians can’t see the enemy’s attack to confuse men and women’s identity and design, well, they don’t get it. I’m sure Driscoll understands that this is a war for the soul of the US and the world! Of course he’s “still doing the same thing.” More wisely, one would hope, but the same nonetheless. We need it. For the domesticated, feminized types, there are plenty of alternatives. But keep one thing in mind as you continue to soften: Aslan is not a tame lion!
Children sitting might included those too young to participate yet attend to learn. The overall point may or may not be the cause but is certainly part of it and makes a good point at how widely we have to look to understand what we are doing.
don't forget about when he'd berate all of the men in his church for things that the vast majority of the men were probably not guilty of. I'm not sure which time period those beratings occurred. Perhaps it was when he wanted to build up feminist capital with the women in his church as to strengthen his position in the church.
I'm currently healing from the pagan teachings of many of the ministries through reading works by the early church and the development of Church in history. Paul's letters are very accurate when viewed in the proper setting. I'm still not Postmil proper. I'm a floater. Can you please give me verses I can read through in my study time? Currently, I'm going through Colossians which touches on the topic of the primary work of repentance to yhe good works in partaking of roles through God's design. Thanks, Joel.
20 mins in and your assesment is interesting. I felt that his lying was the biggest problem. As a bully his group was toxic and trafficked in lying as the project was too big to fail. Having encountered several ex-Mars Hill types these injured people aren't mature and can't even discern when they're lying and confusing their narcissistic tendencies with competency.
He actually had some unhealthy views of many things. Many clients I serve in the Princeton, NJ area recieved emotional wounds and had unhealthy marriages modeled by the emotionally unhealthy discipleship style and erratic ecclesiology of Mars Hill in Seattle, Wa.
@@johntobey1558 no doubt. I never heard him much but there was something performative that was a little off-putting. A recent report, (with text screen shots) of people from Driscoll's current church stalking other people to keep an eye on them is pretty unsettling. I personally worked as a contractor doing that kind of activity for a season but everybody involved knew what was going on and it would've been frowned upon to follow other people in public like that.
Pastor Joel. If I may ask, what differentiates your view from Driscoll's on "women"??...... I mean, it seems the both of y'all frown upon a woman working outside of the home or having a career...... Other than the fact that he has more name recognition than you do, is there another difference on views of women, I didn't pick up on??
Seems like you place a lot of emphasis on personal strategy. We win spiritual battles not by personal strategy, but by personal obedience. God brings victory in unexpected ways through unexpected people.
CT is a secular feminist organization with a thin veneer of pseudo Christianity. That series on mars hill made me kind of like Driscoll because CT was so blatantly feminist
I wouldn’t take it personally, but don’t you see a contradiction between simultaneously promoting flight by fight and the boniface option? How could Boniface strike down Thor’s tree in Rome, in the very hearth of Christianity? It had to be done in the center of the most pagan territory. That’s what Driscoll meant at the time, at that is what you probably mean too. Both arguments make sense though.
To give Driscoll’s actions even a passing pass to defend complementarianism is abhorrent. If the kind of complementarity you espouse abuses the people that you are called to shepherd, you are wrong. B6bthe way, do women preach in children’s ministry? Stop the hypocrisy.
Lol! Amen! Despite deep theological differences, I am, above all, a Bible believer. The disposition of women is distinctly different from men: they are emotional and nurturing. I don't agree that God arbitrarily assigns physical, dispositional or spiritual characteristics: God always does everything with purpose. The true test is whether people will accept and submit to the established order, it was prophesied: [12] As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths. Isaiah 3:12 Israel didn't get right before God took them all out. History repeats... Above all, this is an astute analysis. Christianity Today is a farce. God is calling everyone to righteousness and holiness. So, we need the Spirit to be able to hear God's voice directly - Eze. 2:2 - otherwise, it sounds like a very loud trumpet - Exo. 16:16,19 (ALL kinds of stuff in THAT statement!!). THAT'S why God sends men to speak to people - thus saith the Lord God: ears to hear, eyes to see. It's life and judgment at the same time - Jer. 9:24 John 6:68
I didn't agree with everything Mark said (ex. making his wife's reservations about sexual explanation public), but his ideas on the difference between men and women were the things that got me back into Christianity. The lack of distinction between the two and increase in wokeness has caused me to have problems with belief.
I listened to whole podcast and I still don't understand what the fuss was about. No preacher is perfect and his in your face style is not for everyone. Was he teaching heresy? Did he commit a disqualifying sin or a crime? Or did some people get their feelings or their sensibilites hurt?
In saying that women "cannot preach" are you claiming that Christ command to Mary (John 20:17) to proclaim to His brothers the news of His resurrection was something she could not do?
In the study of philosophy we would call your question equivocation. Being witness to the resurrection of Jesus and pulpit preaching are two entirely different things.
@@mchristr didn't hear the host mention "pulpit preaching." Are you saying that what can be defined as preaching is not recorded for us in scripture as the writers of the NT were, in general, witnesses of the resurrection, and that is "entirely different"?
@@ArchDLuxe The contemporary, formal understanding of the word "preach" invariably insinuates the pulpit ministry. Are you making the point that a female believer in Christ can share with others what God has done? Of course she can. But she hasn't been called, by the Scriptures, to the task of pastor/teacher in the Church.
@@mchristr you're shifting the posts. I never mentioned pastor/teacher. For your argument to have any weight, preaching would need to be exclusive to that office. It is not. The host said "women cannot preach," implying a lack of ability. Paul said "I do not allow a woman to preach..." This would be a moot point if they lacked ability. You don't need to disallow something that is not possible. The host is wrong. Deal with it.
You try living in the philadelphia suburbs on one salary. Wake up brother we don't all live in the boonies. Try living in the northeast on a ministry salary. Come on.
We reformed need to do a much better job of not simply being the church's theology police. We have great theology, I really believe that. But what I will say is that we are more known for criticizing those outside the reformed tradition than actually living out the reformed tradition itself.
Well, let me tell you Joel, I heard sermons from women in churches that were biblical, theologically correct, relevant and practical. And many those sermons were just as good and even better than some men. Your misogyny and hatred of women is blatant and brash. I suggest you read (or watch the series of) "A Handmaid's Tale". It might open your heart and mind to the logical conclusion that your hateful sermons about women will lead to.
Just a note, birds and fish are completely different classes of animals. Men and women are both from the same species. The proper analogy of the difference between men and women then would not be that men and women are like birds and fish but that men and women are like birds and other birds.
GOD IS THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN PASS JUDGEMENT ON ANOTHER. THE LORD REBUKES SATAN IN ALL FORMS. GOSSIP IS A SIN WITHIN ITSELF. WHY NOT PREACH THE WORD OF GOD INSTEAD OF FINDING FAULT WITH SOMEONE WHO DOES. HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE YOU BROUGHT TO JESUS? HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE YOU TAUGHT TO HATE? JESUS COMMANDS US TO LOVE EACH OTHER. YOU ARE DEFAMING SOMEONE ELSE. ARE YOU CLEAN? ARE YOU PERFECT? DO YOU MAKE MISTAKES? STEP DOWN FROM YOUR PLATFORM AND SERVE GOD.
Lol. Women "cannot" preach? That's laughable. Both women and men are called to preach Christ. Obviously the pulpit isn't for women but preaching is not exclusively in the pulpit.
I knew that CT podcast was just a bunch of angry, fake Christian feminists 5 minutes into it. Thanks so much for this thoughtful analysis from an actual believer.
Don’t forget about Mark and Mars Hill using church money to purchase his own book to get it on The NY Times Best Sellers list. I don’t recall all those details as it’s been 10+ years ago, and maybe those allegations were dropped, but it was a huge story among other reformed men. I love you Joel and your videos have been a blessing for me. But I think to say Driscol’s only issue was how he said things sometimes is being short sighted. You may want to do some further investigation as this man proved many times he was not fit to be an elder. I believe he even started attending Rick Warrens church for a while after he left Mars Hill. JMac and others warned people like John Piper (one of Mark’s mentors) to better disciple Mark and other YRR men as he could see their trajectory. But during the height of the YRR movement, the youth felt the older and wiser men were just old curmudgeons.
@@RightResponseMinistries with that said, I do now realize your point to the video. It was about the CT article on WHY he was removed/left, and it was disingenuous. Or, maybe it’s a big reason the elders wanted him gone, and if so, that reason alone was wrong. We have such effeminate pastors now. My pastor, although he is an incredible espository preacher, definitely isn’t bold about how we are designed differently.
I'm actually humored at how many people are emotionally invested in criticizing a man called by God and he faithfully answered.... he stumbled, yes... but God redeems.... Moses, David, Jacob, Joseph.... if you're a Calvinist then you know Mark Driscoll is being exactly who Yahweh made him to be, and doing exactly as He designed. So as a Calvinist .... try and be consistent in your world view application. You know better... you just don't live out what you claim to know.... Theoretical Christianity vs. Application of God's commandments .... "Nerds know....Geeks Do" as it were.
God gave him his personality and talents, but sin corrupted it. Sin is a disease that corrupts God's design. As the RFMH podcast points out, he refused to submit to anybody. Even when his sin was made public he refused to submit to the process, he left and started a new church with no public repentance. We all must live humbly and walk in the fruit of the Spirit.
Calvinists aren't fatalists or incompatibilist determinists despite what popular anti-Calvinists like to accuse. Driscoll chose to act as he did and is fully responsible for that choice in accordance to the free will and liberty of second causes God established by what he ordained (to borrow from WCF 3.1).
In order to be on Mark Driscoll’s level, he would have to completely shatter and destroy a massive church and church following from the inside out. I don’t think Matt Walsh is on Mark Driscoll’s league in this level of accomplishment 😉
That was a powerful argument: men & women are designed as men & women, rather then having the "roles" of men & women applied to men & women arbitrarily.
Amen. Thanks brother!
Funny, the only thing I learned from watching the CT series about mars hill was that CT is a front for secular feminism with a very thin veneer of Christianity. I found myself kind of liking Driscoll, hearing the garbage they were spewing and the secular experts they used to make their feministic points, and had to check myself.
Interesting analysis. I think Driscoll, CT, and many in "urban mandate" crowd have contempt for missions and church planting in rural America. The idea is that "as goes [insert big city], so goes the nation", and that everyone looks up to these big cities in terms of adopting policy and culture. Therefore, rural communities are a waste of time as they are just downstream of the big cities. It sadly mirrors the general elitist sediments that people in rural America are second rate compared to well educated and affluential city folk.
Exactly.
Great comment. I do think that cities need churches and ministries and Christians intentionally living in them, but it’s a both/and to me w/r/t rural areas - which also need churches and Christians actually ministering to their neighbors.
meanwhile, people out here care little about what happens in those cesspools
@@billybob-wx2re sadly, this is true. I just finished a paper on the 3 aspects of being created in God’s image… I think if they were to be fully realized and understood, almost all of our problems would be solved… I’ll edit it and post it on my blog soon…
@@billybob-wx2re Yeah, I think big eva don't consider how much rural people despise city culture nowadays.
I live just 30 min south of Seattle. We homeschool our four kids and there’s no way we could afford to live in Seattle.
We were also a part of an Acts 29 church (not Mars Hill) and I believe they pushed friendship evangelism and being on mission so much that they elevated the second greatest commandment above the first. And I believe it has resulted in a lack of fruitful mission (fear of man above God makes it hard to share the gospel) and why many Acts 29 churches have gone woke.
Interestingly, I just found your content and it seems my husband and I have very similar church paths and theology as you. Thanks for all you do!
When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
-Matthew 10:23 NKJV
A much more helpful analysis than what CT offered. As a fellow TX church planter, I can glean a lot from this!
Driscoll has a huge ego and lack christian maturity because of his pride which leads to his failure, just masculinity is not enough for Christ.
Not a fan of Driscoll since he conflated masculinity with having to be married.
For the past 35 years in supported pastoral ministry my term for Christianity Today has been Christianity Astray.
"... raging Pagan Feminists aka Russell Moore..."
🤣🤣🤣 Glad I wasn't drinking anything.
I’m so thankful to find this content. Mark was very helpful in my early days of being a Christian and it’s nice to hear your fair and biblical perspective of the rise and fall of mars hill .. I’ve been challenged and my prayer is I can get my financial situation together asap so I can do it Gods way, and start and raise a family how God intended. This is war. 🔥🙏🏻
I really liked what you said at the end in particular about letting places like seattle and california and new york implode on themselves in the way the prodigal son did. I have not heard something like that before. Great video, thank you.
Great podcast. Christianity Today is pagan. We need to stop worrying about what Pagans say.
Amen
Interesting take on the situation. I can relate because I live in Oregon and work in Washington. Rural Oregon, but still suffer the negative effects of having Portland only 80 miles away. By the grace of God my wife works in the home. Still working on the private/homeschooling part but hoping to get there.
I live in Washington and work a lot in Oregon. Not far from Portland. Definitely worried about the future in this region.
Serving as a missionary in an urban context in Asia--the church here has been in decline for years, and young people aren't getting married or starting families--would love to get your book when it comes out, it would be a valuable resource for the church in Korean, Japanese, and Chinese.
It seems that modern women don't want to sacrifice their shallow, materialistic lifestyles in order to procreate. Everyone wants to be an influencer.
Thanks for sharing the info about some areas being more suited to live out the one income homeschool lifestyle. We learned this the hard way moving from a smaller city to a major city. I thought we could recreate our life there but the people were just different.
Maybe this podcast will help families to make more informed choices before uprooting their family like we did or encourage them to leave the cities and move to where it can be easier to have a fulfilling family life and live in a supportive community.
Where did you move from?
@@DmitriyMollla Pensacola
"From their gay worship songs...to their 20 minute TED talks."
I lost my mind. Lol.
Mind you Mars Hill was not the only church Driscoll had to leave, don’t forget the second church he joined asked him to leave as well.
If you do just a brief research on Driscoll you probably will come to the conclusion he’s liar, he never was a Calvinist. He ran with questionable crowds who today are all defunct some thrown out of their churches.
Bottom line Driscoll was and is never to be trusted.
😆😆😆😆😆😆😆😆😆 that's the "love and forgiveness" Christ taught.... well done hypocrite
I always thought it was rather well known that Driscoll was Amyraldian. Maybe to the "Arminians are basically Calvinists" group, Driscoll is indistinguishable, but he's not even fully stereologically a "Calvinist", let alone Reformed in the slightest.
What are the facts about this second leaving of a church? I have not heard anything about that.
@@shenanigansofmannanan He has proved himself unqualified for ministry. If he appears truly repentant, he can be restored as a brother. Being a brother doesn't mean he should be allowed in the position of church leadership.
I wanted all of the things with regard to marriage and family. I was saved at 20. From my culture and family background, marriage and childbearing were always considered of great value. Marriage never came. The Christian culture into which I came did place a high value on marriage and children and modelled male eldership. It was very much the norm. It can be alienating to only hear that getting married young and having children are good when you have never opposed these things but you never received them. We need to also preach a Biblical view of singleness, looking at how God has a good purpose for this in His Kingdom, acknowledging that there are challenges but great blessings if God calls you to this way of life.
I appreciate your comment. While we ought to encourage marriage and help young adults to find quality spouses, we need to understand that some adults may not have that opportunity and recognize how they can fellowship and serve in community. I think the conflict is that there is almost unanimous consensus in American culture to not marry until you have met your personal goals (college, career, travel, etc.), which has moved to late 20s or beyond. God's principles are often counterculture. While we ought to embrace them, we should always remember that not everyone will find that ideal nuclear family.
God bless!
I think you are mistaken. The problem in today's churches is that they don't emphasize marriage enough. The goals of young men and women in the church, seem to be the same goals of the rest of the world- to have a nice career and be financially successful. If pastors spent more time encouraging young women to marry, we wouldn't have so many young adults struggling with temptation and fornication.
@@nerychristianah yes, it’s the woman’s fault.
Brilliant piece. You've nailed it, brother. Sad though. Let's all learn from this. Thank you for a very mature production. Christian maturity is rare. [Pastor from South Africa]
I think your assessment on Mark Driscoll is exactly right. His insistence on biblical masculinity, fully fleshed-out in Seattle is like training well-digger's and insisting that they do it in a desert.
Amen, so true
Isn’t it a bit of a case of Muzzling the Ox?? What Discol did to his churches and those Elders. Part of the fruits of their labor, where great joy is found, is in that teaching and lending his direct insight to his own sheep. He stripped them of that fruit, and therefore also that joy. Which is VERY unbiblical. Men working to build up their flock should be enjoying the fruits of their labor. It keeps them motivated and content, and therefore also herds away sin.
"I'm more interested in Christianity yesterday" I found that line particularly funny, not that that was your intention, but I do love church history, and MarsHill is certainly some fascinating church history! Thanks for this, I have found the Podcast on MarsHill very interesting as I came into the faith many years ago through a Charismatic and then Alliance experience. Finding a solid doctrinally sound church has become, in my estimation more difficult. For years I was a flat screen guy and was able to find some good teaching. I thank God for the men he continues to grow and mature in the faith. Men like you, Eric Con, Brian Suave, and of Course that rukus crowd in Moscow! Up in Canada God has been raising a few trouble makers which has been encouraging. Shalom brother
Thank you for doing this video Sir! Couldn’t agree more!
I just found your account and I absolutely agree with everything you teach. PS I live just outside of Austin too
Come and join us!
Listening to this now it seems IHOP Kansas City was their due to a prophecy that God would send revival there. Different ministry but similar in that way.
Absolutely agree 100% with what your saying I heard Mark Dricoll over the past several months on u tube and I was praising God for a man to boldly stand up and Speak to men, Biblically I have been saved for 47 yrs. God has showed me all of this , for years ,been married 52 yrs. Got married very young, God has Blessed my family ,faithful to everything your saying, living by biblical principles against all odds ,God has provided in honest, miraculous ways , have 4 children all grown. 14 grandchildren and 4 more great grand children. One income family , homeschooled our children, a non Christian husband ,I got saved first , but God absolutely kept us ,and my husband after 25 yrs, recieved Christ and the Lord has Blessed us ,kept us ,saved our children , God is faithful to His word, period. We live in Washington state .
I am not sure that the inheritance refers to wealth. I think spiritual wealth is closer to the mark. Jesus left the greatest inheritance to His followers but he left no worldly wealth to anyone. Saying men have to make a lot of money seems shallow with many counter examples in the Bible from Adam to Jesus and the disciples.
I was thinking about moving the family to TX, but I'm finding the property tax is absolutely insane. If we want a tiny homestead within a couple hours of the beach, maybe 2 acres or so, well the property tax itself is about as high as my entire monthly mortgage payment where I live now!
You know what they say about property tax? If you don't own your land, you're just leasing it from the state.
"Oh, but there is no state tax!" That's great. My state tax where I am is about $1500. My property tax in TX would cost that every 5 or 6 weeks. Hardly a good trade.
I'd love to move to the big cowboy gun ranch state, but the cost seems ridiculous. Am I missing something?
As a lifelong Texan, I'd say you're correct. The problem is this nonsense "lesser of two evils" voting pattern. Democrats are socialists who will tax you 90%. Republicans are phony conservatives who will tax you in the most hidden ways. And Libertarians believe TAXATION IS THEFT, and it is.
But Texas being a red state, Republican voters and Independents will seldom to never vote for Libertarians because, "lesser of two evils, can't let the Democrats win." And will say lines like "but at least there is no state income tax," as a way to abdicate their responsibility from voting for Republicans who govern like socialist Democrats.
In Seattle you are bang on. Major darkness in Seattle. even the weather causes suicide, the grunge scene, the chop, the drugs, the birthplace of starbucks, yada yada. spent one day there on a road trip, wife and I could literally feel it.
If it’s a similar feel to Portland OR then we (my wife and I) felt the same thing while there.
@@brettmagnuson8318 I’ve driven through Portland and it honestly felt like a third world country with all the homeless and trash everywhere. There also was something evil about seeing the word “heathen” graffitied everywhere.
I live in a suburb north of Seattle and belong to a very large fellowship. The pastor/teachers there are solidly biblical and have resisted compromise with the culture. And yes, for an ex-Californian the weather is difficult to take.
I was not an avid follower of Driscoll's teaching but how is he or Mars Hill church to be accountable for Seattle's infrastructure? The mission of the church is not to "christian-ize" the culture, and therefore be reconstructionists. Or have I misinterpreted the goal of Post-Millinealism? The mission of the church is to proclaim and advance the Gospel one soul at a time. Thus changing culture. Again, not making laws for a kingdom that is temporal, secular, and ever growing wicked. Jesus said His Kingdom is not of THIS world. Again, we call people out if this world and into His. This world and all its sin is going to pass away.
Actually the Bible teaches that the Creation will be renewed. I'm going to assume that includes this planet. So in the end this cosmos more belongs to the Church than the unbeliever.
Did you actually watch the CT series?
This does a massive disservice to all the people who were hurt at Mars Hill. We can all debate our theological beliefs all day long but this video is embarrassing and just extends the hurt that so many are still dealing with
This is amazing 👏 truth
Great info! I am down here in Scottsdale AZ and a bunch of things help Mark and his church here vs Seattle. To bad houses have gone for 200k to 800k around his church here if you wanted to live close. But here you can live farther and and drive in as well.
A nice thing is the State lets you out tax dollars to private school and home school which is nice, so your taxes are not wasted if you don’t go to public school.
When the West Roman Empire began to collapse I wonder did the Christian at the time began to move from Rome and other Roman cities to the countryside. I live in the DC area and have been thinking hard to move out of the immediate area. Toward Western Virginia or West Virginia. The area is too left wing and most churches are dead spiritually.
Yes. Christians when that happened in AD70. Jesus literally commanded them to in Matthew 24.
I can understand Pastor Driscoll's frustration with what he sees as the feminization of the contemporary evangelical church. And yet the solution isn't "biblical bootcamp" but rather a Gospel calling to follow Christ.
Unfortunately he’s now here in Phoenix doing the exact same. He learned NOTHING
Is that “The Lightlings” by Sproul in the background?
Yep
Listening to this, it's interesting how similar we respond to world chatter.
I are agree!
I wish more women understood God holds men to a certain standard. All of these men who have come along and lead people astray with false gospels and bad preaching, will be held accountable. Why on Earth would you want to take all of that stress and strain on yourself? Oh right, no real woman of God would. I'm fine back here taking care of my husband and family. Leave all that extra work and stress for the men. 😂
Because that's the curse of Eve's daughters.... they will desire to rule over their husband's... and single women desire to rule over men in the world...
1 Timothy 2:14 tells me that women can't preach because their nature is to lead towards sin.
My new fav channel
This is post 2024 Stronger Men Conference. Wanting to learn more about Mark D, i happened onto the CT hit piece. I was outraged. As you have said perfectly, they’re deconstructing Christianity itself! It’s a 12 hour straw man argument using Driscoll as its whipping boy and a lot of hyper-sensitive me too’s whining about being reprimanded or fired, complete with scary backdrop music! I was in a very similar situation and was fired. Guess what? I survived and I’m still friends with the man that fired me! And he’s still ministering and saving hundreds from the culture of death that’s all around us. I’m not defending Driscoll. These folks came in freely and the back door was always open. If Christians can’t see the enemy’s attack to confuse men and women’s identity and design, well, they don’t get it. I’m sure Driscoll understands that this is a war for the soul of the US and the world! Of course he’s “still doing the same thing.” More wisely, one would hope, but the same nonetheless. We need it. For the domesticated, feminized types, there are plenty of alternatives. But keep one thing in mind as you continue to soften: Aslan is not a tame lion!
"A woman CANNOT preach."
I can't think of a single woman that I've heard in the pulpit that has ever PREACHED. This is so true.
According to Titus 2:3-5, Can women preach to women and children ?
Children sitting might included those too young to participate yet attend to learn.
The overall point may or may not be the cause but is certainly part of it and makes a good point at how widely we have to look to understand what we are doing.
No more family man's wage.
don't forget about when he'd berate all of the men in his church for things that the vast majority of the men were probably not guilty of. I'm not sure which time period those beratings occurred. Perhaps it was when he wanted to build up feminist capital with the women in his church as to strengthen his position in the church.
I'm currently healing from the pagan teachings of many of the ministries through reading works by the early church and the development of Church in history.
Paul's letters are very accurate when viewed in the proper setting.
I'm still not Postmil proper.
I'm a floater. Can you please give me verses I can read through in my study time? Currently, I'm going through Colossians which touches on the topic of the primary work of repentance to yhe good works in partaking of roles through God's design.
Thanks, Joel.
Where did you go to seminary and beyond?
20 mins in and your assesment is interesting.
I felt that his lying was the biggest problem.
As a bully his group was toxic and trafficked in lying as the project was too big to fail. Having encountered several ex-Mars Hill types these injured people aren't mature and can't even discern when they're lying and confusing their narcissistic tendencies with competency.
He actually had some unhealthy views of many things. Many clients I serve in the Princeton, NJ area recieved emotional wounds and had unhealthy marriages modeled by the emotionally unhealthy discipleship style and erratic ecclesiology of Mars Hill in Seattle, Wa.
@@johntobey1558 no doubt. I never heard him much but there was something performative that was a little off-putting. A recent report, (with text screen shots) of people from Driscoll's current church stalking other people to keep an eye on them is pretty unsettling. I personally worked as a contractor doing that kind of activity for a season but everybody involved knew what was going on and it would've been frowned upon to follow other people in public like that.
Pastor Joel. If I may ask, what differentiates your view from Driscoll's on "women"??...... I mean, it seems the both of y'all frown upon a woman working outside of the home or having a career...... Other than the fact that he has more name recognition than you do, is there another difference on views of women, I didn't pick up on??
Seems like you place a lot of emphasis on personal strategy. We win spiritual battles not by personal strategy, but by personal obedience. God brings victory in unexpected ways through unexpected people.
CT is a secular feminist organization with a thin veneer of pseudo Christianity. That series on mars hill made me kind of like Driscoll because CT was so blatantly feminist
Did Jesus ever said that? To forbids women from preaching?
See the list of qualifications for elder/pastor/teacher in Paul's epistles (1 Timothy, Titus). The gender implications should be obvious.
I wouldn’t take it personally, but don’t you see a contradiction between simultaneously promoting flight by fight and the boniface option? How could Boniface strike down Thor’s tree in Rome, in the very hearth of Christianity? It had to be done in the center of the most pagan territory. That’s what Driscoll meant at the time, at that is what you probably mean too. Both arguments make sense though.
To give Driscoll’s actions even a passing pass to defend complementarianism is abhorrent. If the kind of complementarity you espouse abuses the people that you are called to shepherd, you are wrong. B6bthe way, do women preach in children’s ministry? Stop the hypocrisy.
Lol! Amen! Despite deep theological differences, I am, above all, a Bible believer. The disposition of women is distinctly different from men: they are emotional and nurturing. I don't agree that God arbitrarily assigns physical, dispositional or spiritual characteristics: God always does everything with purpose. The true test is whether people will accept and submit to the established order, it was prophesied:
[12] As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.
Isaiah 3:12
Israel didn't get right before God took them all out. History repeats...
Above all, this is an astute analysis. Christianity Today is a farce. God is calling everyone to righteousness and holiness. So, we need the Spirit to be able to hear God's voice directly - Eze. 2:2 - otherwise, it sounds like a very loud trumpet - Exo. 16:16,19 (ALL kinds of stuff in THAT statement!!). THAT'S why God sends men to speak to people - thus saith the Lord God: ears to hear, eyes to see. It's life and judgment at the same time - Jer. 9:24
John 6:68
My gosh, you said the same thing 10x, 10 different ways.
I didn't agree with everything Mark said (ex. making his wife's reservations about sexual explanation public), but his ideas on the difference between men and women were the things that got me back into Christianity. The lack of distinction between the two and increase in wokeness has caused me to have problems with belief.
I listened to whole podcast and I still don't understand what the fuss was about. No preacher is perfect and his in your face style is not for everyone. Was he teaching heresy? Did he commit a disqualifying sin or a crime? Or did some people get their feelings or their sensibilites hurt?
Who trusts Russel Moore any more!
Yes, they are apostates!
In saying that women "cannot preach" are you claiming that Christ command to Mary (John 20:17) to proclaim to His brothers the news of His resurrection was something she could not do?
In the study of philosophy we would call your question equivocation. Being witness to the resurrection of Jesus and pulpit preaching are two entirely different things.
@@mchristr didn't hear the host mention "pulpit preaching." Are you saying that what can be defined as preaching is not recorded for us in scripture as the writers of the NT were, in general, witnesses of the resurrection, and that is "entirely different"?
@@ArchDLuxe The contemporary, formal understanding of the word "preach" invariably insinuates the pulpit ministry. Are you making the point that a female believer in Christ can share with others what God has done? Of course she can. But she hasn't been called, by the Scriptures, to the task of pastor/teacher in the Church.
@@mchristr you're shifting the posts. I never mentioned pastor/teacher. For your argument to have any weight, preaching would need to be exclusive to that office. It is not. The host said "women cannot preach," implying a lack of ability. Paul said "I do not allow a woman to preach..." This would be a moot point if they lacked ability. You don't need to disallow something that is not possible. The host is wrong. Deal with it.
You try living in the philadelphia suburbs on one salary. Wake up brother we don't all live in the boonies. Try living in the northeast on a ministry salary. Come on.
My wife's parents raised her and two sisters alongside multiple foster kids in the Philly suburbs on one salary.
I’m not sure what the heck you’re talking about. I didn’t say anywhere was easy. I just said that major blue cities in blue states are hardest.
@Jennifer Mugrage exactly.
@RightResponseMinistries it is hard, you should not abandon the Noneveh's of today
@@jeremyfrost3127In Lower Makefield?
We reformed need to do a much better job of not simply being the church's theology police. We have great theology, I really believe that. But what I will say is that we are more known for criticizing those outside the reformed tradition than actually living out the reformed tradition itself.
Well, let me tell you Joel, I heard sermons from women in churches that were biblical, theologically correct, relevant and practical. And many those sermons were just as good and even better than some men. Your misogyny and hatred of women is blatant and brash. I suggest you read (or watch the series of) "A Handmaid's Tale". It might open your heart and mind to the logical conclusion that your hateful sermons about women will lead to.
CT sinned as much with that podcast as Driscoll did.
Probably more.
Just a note, birds and fish are completely different classes of animals. Men and women are both from the same species. The proper analogy of the difference between men and women then would not be that men and women are like birds and fish but that men and women are like birds and other birds.
Yet bitcoin fixes this
GOD IS THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN PASS JUDGEMENT ON ANOTHER. THE LORD REBUKES SATAN IN ALL FORMS. GOSSIP IS A SIN WITHIN ITSELF. WHY NOT PREACH THE WORD OF GOD INSTEAD OF FINDING FAULT WITH SOMEONE WHO DOES. HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE YOU BROUGHT TO JESUS? HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE YOU TAUGHT TO HATE? JESUS COMMANDS US TO LOVE EACH OTHER. YOU ARE DEFAMING SOMEONE ELSE. ARE YOU CLEAN? ARE YOU PERFECT? DO YOU MAKE MISTAKES? STEP DOWN FROM YOUR PLATFORM AND SERVE GOD.
Lol. Women "cannot" preach? That's laughable. Both women and men are called to preach Christ. Obviously the pulpit isn't for women but preaching is not exclusively in the pulpit.
Spot on.
But she cannot preach? She does not have the make up? No. She has a voice she can preach. Men are dropping the ball women sanctify
I knew that CT podcast was just a bunch of angry, fake Christian feminists 5 minutes into it. Thanks so much for this thoughtful analysis from an actual believer.
Amen Steve. Thanks brother!
Christianity Today was founded as a Neoevangelical publication. What did we expect?
HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE YOU BROUGHT TO JESUS? HOW MANY HAVE YOU DISCOURAGED FROM KNOWING THE WORD OF GOD?
Don’t forget about Mark and Mars Hill using church money to purchase his own book to get it on The NY Times Best Sellers list. I don’t recall all those details as it’s been 10+ years ago, and maybe those allegations were dropped, but it was a huge story among other reformed men.
I love you Joel and your videos have been a blessing for me. But I think to say Driscol’s only issue was how he said things sometimes is being short sighted. You may want to do some further investigation as this man proved many times he was not fit to be an elder. I believe he even started attending Rick Warrens church for a while after he left Mars Hill. JMac and others warned people like John Piper (one of Mark’s mentors) to better disciple Mark and other YRR men as he could see their trajectory. But during the height of the YRR movement, the youth felt the older and wiser men were just old curmudgeons.
You’re right. There were certainly other things. I’ve heard some horror stories.
@@RightResponseMinistries with that said, I do now realize your point to the video. It was about the CT article on WHY he was removed/left, and it was disingenuous. Or, maybe it’s a big reason the elders wanted him gone, and if so, that reason alone was wrong.
We have such effeminate pastors now. My pastor, although he is an incredible espository preacher, definitely isn’t bold about how we are designed differently.
What about reading scripture in front of a congregation?
Good thing you are not judgmental!!! You represent everything that is disgusting in the Church!
I'm actually humored at how many people are emotionally invested in criticizing a man called by God and he faithfully answered.... he stumbled, yes... but God redeems.... Moses, David, Jacob, Joseph.... if you're a Calvinist then you know Mark Driscoll is being exactly who Yahweh made him to be, and doing exactly as He designed. So as a Calvinist .... try and be consistent in your world view application. You know better... you just don't live out what you claim to know....
Theoretical Christianity vs. Application of God's commandments .... "Nerds know....Geeks Do" as it were.
God gave him his personality and talents, but sin corrupted it. Sin is a disease that corrupts God's design. As the RFMH podcast points out, he refused to submit to anybody. Even when his sin was made public he refused to submit to the process, he left and started a new church with no public repentance. We all must live humbly and walk in the fruit of the Spirit.
Calvinists aren't fatalists or incompatibilist determinists despite what popular anti-Calvinists like to accuse. Driscoll chose to act as he did and is fully responsible for that choice in accordance to the free will and liberty of second causes God established by what he ordained (to borrow from WCF 3.1).
Well said.
YOU RIDING DRISCOLLS COAT TAIL, HOPING TO HAVE HIS FOLLOWING?
In order to be on Mark Driscoll’s level, he would have to completely shatter and destroy a massive church and church following from the inside out.
I don’t think Matt Walsh is on Mark Driscoll’s league in this level of accomplishment 😉
Where you got all of this beside PAUL. SAID?
And Paul isn’t significant?
@@michaelluce8665 Some of what Paul said, by his own admittance, is not of God.