Looking back at my years spent in church, it’s amazing that there’s this huge culture of people who fawn over passages from these letters without any literary understanding of them. Thank you for making videos like these.
Just for the record, I personally don’t mind at all the time between videos, especially when this kind of thoroughly researched content is the end result. Fantastic episode!
I can definitely second that, as I’m sure everyone who values honesty, objectivity, and we might as well throw in integrity, would agree with. I just wish you had more time for other areas that would sure benefit from your knowledge and experience in sorting through this and all of the incredibly tangled topics that you take on. Thank you
Experts on UA-cam claim that the graphic style is distinct from Paulogia as we never see his face or an animated version of him so take this with a grain of salt.
I was ready to comment that you missed the biggest theological issue w/ these being forgeries, but you saved it for the end. You hit the nail on the head. What you describe at the end, was me. As a believer, I refused to look at anything that denied the inerrancy of the Bible. Since it didn't have truth as it's foundation, or so I thought, it wasn't worth looking at. Which is why when I stopped believing, I had 4 decades of science to catch up on.
@@Fade2GrayOG A big bomb indeed especially if we think way "outside the box". Consider this: I'm not a conspiracy guy, but IF some unknown outside agency - whether natural or supernatural - - wanted to create & sustain one of the biggest & world changing false but incredibly efficient & effective worldviews, what better way to keep the sheep in the pen than to include the idea that everything in the teachings is inerrant by Godly default so that the sheep will effectively "doubt their own doubt" when confronted with opposing facts that will - inevitably - be exposed? The more popular the religion gets the more likely it is that skeptics will eventually put two and two together. It makes sense to have a "catchall" defense to convince the sheep that they have the correct worldview for countless generations to come. Something to ponder!
"Science" is not inventions made in the society called experts minds. Q document is an invention. They have zero evidence to support it but treat it's existence as real. Oh, just possibly you have different observations of the same event. Instead these so called science believe in their own device. I bet you you switch from hierarchy since you trust is in men.
My bet is that he'll respond with 'sure, there are some anomalies - but look at all the similarities', thus completely missing the point that it's the anomalies that give us good reason to doubt their authenticity.
3:58 What's even stranger, to me, is that when JK Rowling wrote in an unrelated adult genre, crime, under a male pseudonym, Robert Galbraith (with a backstory of a being a former police), she was still discovered to be the author.
@@aronjanosov9046 We can usually identify a singer's voice, so I guess it shouldn't surprise us that we can recognize a writer's voice. But, even having written ten novels, I find it weird... Which reminds me, I wrote 3 crime novels as a ghost and some of the reviews note that the writing was different, but not, at least in the reviewer's mind, from a different writer.
Paul and a lot of former Christians know that pain, it's why he takes care to not talk down or demean people who still believe. I respect you for both being willing to question your faith, and for being willing to watch criticisms of it as I find far too many are incapable of either. I believe whether you come out of things as a reinforced Christian, or a new baby atheist, that you will be a better person for the mere act of interrogating your beliefs sincerely. I wish you the best Ryan, and do remember, if you end up losing your faith, focus on the benefits religion did provide, and move past the "being lied to" part. Too many end up vengeful for that.
@Aryasvitkona That's utter Krapola. You think Paul is not demeaning or holds Christians in derision? Listen to him in other conversations. Nothing but patronizing.
@@theol64 you are wrong Started watching Paul years ago- he has expressed nothing but kindness and grace to his opponents. You are looking for something to get mad at
The reason Jesus didn't choose Paul as a disciple during his earthly existence is because he knew Paul would just be god-splaining to him the whole time.
@@patobrien235 Correct, jesus never "met" paul. paul had a vision of a bright light with a voice speaking to him. That is not what "meeting" means. Otherwise the disciples meeting jesus makes the whole story worse.
"Tradition" is an interesting argument. It is important to remember that for centuries, scholars could not challenge the authorship of any NT books for fear of sanction, imprisonment, or even death. So to say that "Tradition" is an endorsement of the accepted authorship is silly.
"Heretic" Christians probably put at least as much effort into condemning the forgeries in the Bible as the "Orthodox" Christians spent condemning heretical forgeries.
They call it tradition because history is for heathens who hate god because they want to sin, so they make up archaeological sites that contradict tradition.
Hey Paulogia! I notice this video is pretty recent so I wanted to say as a Christian I really value what you’re doing here. I’m not committed to any dogmas that disallow me to critically engage with biblical scholarship and when it comes to your content I really appreciate your objectivity! Also, you’re not disrespectful and you don’t talk down to religious people you disagree with. Much appreciated! ❤
We as members of Paul’s community respect you for taking the time to watch! Here is to hoping that more Christians liken you continue to pop up! Remember that you are respected and appreciated by someone!
@@locomeon_0 if it inspires hope in you at all, since I know there are many Christians who are very dogmatic, let me assure you I have many Christian friends who see things similarly to the way I do and can also critically engage with biblical scholarship. Thank you!
Massive props to you for being willing and able to accept criticism of what many would claim to be the inerrant word of god, while still maintaining the underlying belief. You're my favourite type of christian because while your belief in god is sincere, you're willing to believe some or even most of the bible is at the very least tainted with the writers opinions and ideals, if not entirely forged. It's something that I respect and think the world would be far better off if all religious people held such beliefs. I tip my hat to you and wish you a good day
@@locomeon_0yeah. I believe there are probably a few of us like OP and me. There have got to be more ex-fundies who continued in their Christian faith, and there are plenty of Gary Habermas folks and Episcopalians and such.
This is excellent quality - For such a heavy presentation you've kept things extremely concise and maintain a strong focus on relevance and impact. Wonderful work, sir.
Yes you’re right, I usually don’t look at the screen while I’m listening but now that you mention it there’s a lot of work being done. It doesn’t matter to me, but maybe someone who’s here for the first time might recognize the effort and pay more attention than they would to a guy in a car
The drawings of Paul... oh, let me rephrase that, the AI generated images of Paul as some professional wrestler-level of body building, facial hair grooming, stare-down-your-enemy-in-the-ring look - yeah, "off the charts" is one way to describe it.
One of my favorite things about Paulogia is the lack of filler stories, reiterating, and time wasting. The content is concise, clear, and presented as an intellectual persuit.
Aw yeah! I was just rewatching the video on the gospels earlier today, sad that there hasn’t been a new Paulogia video in a while. These kinds of videos are so accessible for people who aren’t already familiar with the topic.
On average, he's released a new video every 9 days this year. (Yes, I have a spreadsheet.) And since the beginning of 2003, it's every 7 days. (this does not include any videos he makes on The Line, his shorts, or his Paulogia Live channel. Just this channel.) But also, his average video length time has been trending up.
Just a slight observation: Franz Kafka is not German, but a Czech writer. Nevertheless, I give an A+ ti this video, and all the meticulous work Paulogia do!
Prague was part of the Austrian Empire for most of his life, much of the population of Prague was German at the time, and his family were Jews...so assigning an ethnicity is going to be a really mixed bag.
Yes - but the point is that if 2 Timothy was written by a much later author, claiming to be Paul presumably so as to be taken more seriously, that's a reason to question its very place in the canon. And by extension, its doctrines.
Literalists would probably point to 2 Peter 3:16 where "Peter" calls Paul's letters scripture. Unfortunately, this letter is an even more obvious forgery.
@@hearts285 Seriously? 2 Peter 3:16 directly informs 2 Timothy 3:16? This can't actually count as my TIL, since I also watched this video today and learned many things, but it's a pretty fun fact.
Paul was a visionary who ALLEGEDLY wrote down his thoughts which came to be known among pious Christians as The Letters of St. Paul. I read some of his letters and found them uninspiring and mostly nonsensical babbling about his imaginary world of angels, demons prophecies and competing gods. So glad I am an agnostic atheist outsider free to inspect religious cults as a curious human phenomenon.
But Paul visited the third heaven (although he was not certain if it was in the body or out of the body). You cannot argue with him once you know that /s
@@GabrielEddy I don't have any clerics (I did play D&D as a teen), but based on 2 Corinthians 12 that Paul believed there were at least 3 (levels of?) heavens. I don't know if he is mistaken or lying, but suspect one or the other.
Excellent breakdown. Even though I've studied these epistles with a skeptical eye, so much of this specific evidence was still new to me. Thank you as always for your work, Real Paul 😉
I'm on the opposite of this. Things moving in and out at break-neck speed. Almost no time to read the text in blue at the bottom of the screen. The zooming in and out when the blue bar appears/disappears. But that's just me.
Yes, it's been a while since your last video, but it's definitely worth the wait. I've always wondered why those six letters are disputed, and now I know better. Thanks, as always, Paulogia.
After listening to a recent interview with Dr. Mark Bilby. I have changed my viewpoint. From his computer analysis of Paul's letters and the Gospels, they were all written in stages by different authors. So it is difficult to place a timeline for the time these books were written.
Even in the "authentic" letters, because of the method of transmitting them, might be MOSTLY true, but a different phrase or even a different word might totally change generations of scholarly debate over what he said.
Whoooah, Thessalonians warn against fakes? That's sus AF. "This letter is real, seriously, so real, I promise it's real not at all fake as those other letters you got, it is totally real!"
Paulogia, thankyou for explaining all this! I had to listen to most , yesterday,(interrupted, as uaual) then again, (and finish) today. A lot of info here!👍🏼🌊💙💙💙🌊🥰✌🏽
Or Muhammad. The big difference is Paul doesn't 'make up' stuff about him getting extra wives. I think he genuinely believed (whether or not you think he was right).
@@albino_penguin2268 Yes Paul probably genuinely believed… then again lots of people genuinely believe the earth is flat, or that scientology is real. People also tend to believe things are real when it is in their self interest… or when they think a story like Santa Clause is in the best interest of the listener. If you tell a white lie that helps get someone to salvation… is it really a lie? I wonder if joseph smith came to believe his story?
25:57 “If you can’t go there, maybe ask yourself: how would you ever know if you are wrong?” Well put. It takes a bold mind to think outside the box. For me it eventually boiled down to whether I actually “loved” truth or if I was just a TSINO - Truth Seeker In the Name Only.
That's one thing that stands out to me as unchanged about myself as a then Christian and now atheist: I always wanted to know what's true. My mind was just changed about whether Christians' claims are indeed so.
Just to be a nitpicker. The letters aren't written in ancient Greek, but koine Greek which is much simpler. I've studied them both enough to know I'd prefer to work in koine Greek, over ancient Greek.
well, i'd argue that 2000 years old is ancient, so while it might not be in Ancient Greek, it is in greek that is ancient, so technically Paulogia was totally correct the entire time. (This is my impression of an ~~apologist~~ excusigist)
I did an analysis of these books as my coursework for Natural Language Processing in my Masters programme but I didn't come up with good results. This was one of the first courseworks I did and it was simplistic and rushed. I've often thought about going back and redoing it.
If any of these letters were genuine, Paul would have explained the changes in theology, to not confuse his audience, or address criticism of these changes. The stylistic differences with no in-text justification of differing theology is a clencher for me.
According to my autographed Arameic Bible Paul often cheated at playing cards. Though if you read between the lines the Author kinda sucked at playing cards. 🤔 So it is possible that Paul was good at playing cards and that Author was a sore loser.
One defender of 1 & 2 Timothy being early works had an argument centered around the quotation of Luke. The problem is that 1 Timothy, Luke, and Acts are all suspected of being late 1st/early 2nd forgeries. It shows by the end of the 1st century that a large departure from the original faith had occurred.
Just want to point out this more recent work pointed out by one of Dan McClellan's videos, "The Invention of the Inspired Text: Philological Windows on the Theopneustia of Scripture by John C. Poirier on what looks like a misunderstood interpretation of what "God breathed" likely meant for the early church. The suggestion is that it's better understood as life-giving than god-inspired. The idea of Inspiration was later imposed on the term by Origen.
Importantly, this is not a new idea at all. You can see the same points made by Poirier about the expression "god-breathed" in 2 Timothy in earlier works, like in Evangelical scholar, Crag A. Allert, "A High View of Scripture?"
@@Paulogia also, excellent video Paul. Really appreciate the care you take to document your commentary and provide the receipts. There are a couple instances where I wish there was more but I can only imagine how much work it is to produce something this well polished. I'm looking forward to sharing it around.
Thanks for pointing this out, I also mentioned it in my comment. It's one of the most pervasive misreadings that has led to some of the worst apologetic copes to deal with contradictory perspectives in the Bible
@@soarel325 agreed. I've talked with a few Christians about it and pointed them to the recent book but never hear anything back. Unfortunately radio silence. The danger in dogmas like inspiration or inerrancy is that it blocks rational thought on everything else and, even in the sincerest of approaches "to know and love God", creates a cult mentality that is hard to break
One thing I haven't seen being discussed is that Paul is not the only author in many letters. Of the undisputed letters, Sosthenes also is cited as an author in 1 Corinthians and Timothy in 2 Corinthians and Philippians. With Silas alongside Timothy being mentioned in 1 Thessalonians. Of the disputed letters, Colossians was also written by Timothy and 2 Thessalonians by Silas and Timothy. Would that change anything? If Timothy and Silas had larger roles in writing Colossians and 2 Thessalonians would that explain some of the inconsistencies or not? Like if Paul told Timothy and Silas to write using his first letter then they would have copied some stuff right? Or it just doesn't explain anything?
As someone else here pointed out, the style of Greek being written can be as personal as your actual penmanship. Friends and followers of Paul would likely have learned it, BUT then again, there is a chance they could’ve nonetheless. It wouldn’t really explain the major theological differences, though, would it?
When I was in seminary, this was a very difficult issue. Growing up in a tradition that essentially venerated the Bible (inerrancy, infallibility), the idea that a book of the Bible could be written by someone other than the claimed author seemed close to heresy. The argument that eventually convinced me was the development of the church as an institution in the questioned letters. At that time I knew Greek, and I understood the theological arguments fairly well, but I could explain those away (for whatever reason). But the development of the church, with recognized offices, systems to care for widows, strict household codes and AMONG GENTILES? That just did not square with what we knew about the historical Paul’s lifetime. There’s just not enough time from his conversion to death. Even if *his* thinking evolved, we would have to accept that he persuaded all of the churches he evangelized to have followed his same evolution and then built out all of that infrastructure in a very short amount of time. And yes, there are scholars who will make detailed arguments about how it is technically possible, but for me, it strains credulity. And then, I started considering all the other from a different perspective, and it became extremely difficult to defend traditional Pauline authorship. It becomes an exercise in special pleading.
I sat enraptured watching this: the quality of information, the unpacking it in a flowing easy-to-follow narrative, and the beautiful graphs & animation .. this is a friggin masterpiece. 4 years ago I’d have hated it, blinded as I was by how this video ends: my conclusion was predetermined by 2 Tim 3:16 so my array of thought-stopping thoughts would been going furiously. Anyway “I had the Holy Spirit” who spoke to me clearly through these doubtful letters, so case closed … forming my perfect loop. Plus I memoried Ephesians so I had extra “sunken cost fallacy” (it’s also a “Calvinist” classic, so my tribal identity would be at stake also). I watched with a big smile: this really hit home. The repetition of chunks of other letters, which I used to claim as bolstering the authenticity, is clearly the other way. The vocabulary and theme stuff blew my mind .. esp the institutional aspect that seems to be the point of some epistles. Also the change from “don’t marry unless you’ll burn with passion, cos the end is almost here” to “have a nuclear family, and set them in hierarchical boundaries” - my eyes were opened to this after 40yrs! But what really made me hang my head was the part about how this has negatively impacted and even destroyed untold ppl: Slavery and the subjugation of women - words cannot express, when I saw that I cannot now unsee it. Good work Paul, I this UA-cam will in the coming years hit ppl like hit did me, as someone who like you loved these things sincerely. Using Paul’s citing of fake letters is enough of an appeal that I hope old me would pause to think - as is the appeal for truth.
Paul, would it be possible in future videos to move the lil popups of stuff like at 0:10 a bit higher? When I pause the video to read it youtube's video control stuff partly covers it.
Whomever the author of those letters are, I doubt they wrote them thinking it would be considered the `word of God.` I suspect they would have taken more time with the concepts if they had.
Interesting video. Though I don't think the absence of the seven letters would've made that much of a difference. Theologians have never been short of ways to justify whatever their paymasters want justified.
3:20 Regarding burden of proof - If something has been accepted in a traditional context, for centuries, but never actually went through rigorous evidential examination, then the assumption it is accurate is implicitly a claim, an unsupported claim. People who accept any of the writings as the work of Paul have a burden of proof. _And_ the same applies to those who reject any of those writings as the work of Paul. BOTH are making claims. "Tradition" is not an adequate excuse.
Marcion in the early/mid 2nd century. There's way too much connective tissue between the Marcionites and "Paul." And several of Paul's passages are definitely gnostic. As well as the circumcision debate placed in the 1st century makes a WHOLE lot more sense if you shift it tp the early 2nd century when In 132 CE Emperor Hadrian issued an edict forbidding castration. This was meant primarily as a prohibition against castrating slaves, but it quickly morphed into and included any genital mutilation…eventually extending to JEWISH CIRCUMCISION. -This is considered one of the main impetuses for the Bar-Kokhba war of 132-135 CE again in Judea. -But at the SAME TIME across the wider empire this is a completely logical impetus for Christians to BEGIN debating whether circumcision is necessary. Especially since doing so had overnight become a capital offense. With Greek Christians (under the Marcionites and other Gnostic sects) moving firmly away from the practice under “Paul” as a figurehead to argue the trivial nature of a Jewish religious requirement for a new religion swiftly moving away from Judaic practices as a whole... In the 2nd century.
Marcion is another indication that at least the pastoral epistles (Timothy and Titus) were not genuine, as Marcion, a devotee of Paul, did not include them in his Bible. In fact they were probably written by Polycarp or any of Marcionism’s detractors. Timothy was also apparently favored by Marcion, so 1 Timothy seems to end with a knife-twist aimed directly at him. Of course, Marcion wasn’t even born until decades after Paul died, so any letter addressing Marcionism would have to be pseudepigraphical.
I disagree about circumcision. It makes perfect sense for Paul to be concerned about it. According to his letters, he saw himself as the apostle to the gentiles. Adult circumcision is a lot to ask of an adult, especially a gentile. And it is a key part of Judaism. So it makes perfect sense to me that the Jewish Christians would butt heads with Paul who knew that circumcision was going to kill the gentile mission. I would also be interested to hear what you think Paul says that is gnostic. Paul's favorite talking point is how the death of Jesus brings salvation. (ex. 1 Corinthians 1:2).That is basically the opposite of gnosticism.
@@hearts285 No, you're completely ignoring what Hadrian's edict would MEAN for christianity and its judaic ties immediately in 132 CE. The Jews went to war with Rome THAT year. And Greek christians (who won the debate) dropped circumcision. The whole fantasy story of Paul/Acts is a christian smokescreen for this real world debate/crisis.
@@hearts285 1 Corinthians 2:6-7: “6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare God's wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.”-That is the gnostic tenant of hidden knowledge only available to those initiated and advanced in the cult.
@@williambeckett6336 No what I'm saying is there is no reason to invoke it. Paul's concerns about circumcision in Galatians make perfect sense in a First Century context before the destruction of the 2nd temple. Paul had perfectly reasonable practical and theological motives for preaching against gentile circumcision and gentile Christians had perfectly reasonable motives for agreeing with him.
I must cite the advice given to me about the New Testament by my high school religion class teacher Mister Nielsen, "Just focus on the Gospels & Acts, after Acts, the new Testament devolves into a bunch of nonsense!
@joe5959 Jesus teaches to welcome sinners, yet Christians fight against sinners. Abortion clinics, gay marriage, trans rights etc. Why would they do the exact opposite of what Jesus taught? It's because Jesus is not as important to Christians as they say.
This is an absolutely fantastic video. I'd love to see more stuff like this. Paul, I'd love to see you exploit this by getting reactions from scholars like Ehrman or Bowen or even professional anathema Richard Carrier. The video I didn't know I needed. Thank you sir
Dr. Larry Kreitzer wrote an interesting book a while back arguing that Ephesians was originally written by a Colossian Christian to Colossae’s daughter-church in Hierapolis. If true this might mean it was only attributed to Paul after it “went viral” and “left its target audience.”
As I sat listening to the comparisons between these books, even though it has been some years since I rejected the Christian faith, I felt as though I was being slapped in the face or had ice water dumped on my head. This in a good way. I had grown up in a very conservative church where Bible inerrancy was promoted quite heavily yet even back then these differences were quite perplexing in my studies. I was hard pressed to find the answers until the absence of univocality and the added questions of who actually wrote these things was brought to my attention years later. Thank fir the added insight Paul.
I’ve been a huge fan of your work since the beginning basically. This video also is a great summary of these arguments against the authorship of Paul for these 6 letters, while also acknowledging the authorship of the other ones. One suggestion: the visuals could use some more work, I really like the cartoony-style of your other videos btw. Is there anyone in your Patreon-group who would like to volunteer in this?
*Secretaries?* “I, Paul, am writing this with my own hand.” Philemon 1:19. I infer that other epistles were in the handwriting of Paul’s secretary or secretaries. If there is no significant difference in style, etc, between Philemon and the other genuine epistles, then the secretary defense for the others is even less likely, because having a secretary didn’t affect style, ie. the secretaries were likely talking down Paul’s words _verbatim._
I should say that one of the things about Koine Greek (the version of Greek used in the New Testament) is that word order in a sentence was often arbitrary and used for emphasis by the speaker/writer. The endings and prefixes of the individual words (conjugating as we called it in my high school Spanish classes) in a sentence were what determined the function of the word in a sentence. And ofc, people would have certain trends and habits they would develop as they learned the language or as they absorbed it as a child learning it as their native language. These habits in word order and choice can be fairly common and often would betray how much education the person in question had (particularly as Greek scholars would have rather specific preferences they'd pass on to their students). Paul is well-known for having a very unique style of prose. As a result, it's actually a lot easier to see his habits and patterns in his writings and those habits and patterns also make it rather obvious when a letter that was supposed to be written by Paul doesn't match. A person's method of constructing a sentence could be as unique as their personal handwriting in some cases and Paul is definitely one of those cases.
Nobody ever copies my essays, because , as a native German speaker, I have a tendency to structure my sentences in complex subordinate clauses, avoiding run-on sentences while also writing monstrous sentences.
@@RealPumpkinJay but even just talking about German syntax makes me hungry for schnitzel, with jagger gravy …😋 throw me down the stairs my hat, out for dinner shall I go! mmmm… gravy (:-{|)
Thank you, so much for your terse and non-repeating presentation. So many presenters act like we need repetition in order to understand and forget that we have the ability to replay anything we may not have understood on first pass.
You offer really great information, as usual. I've been meaning to learn more about the issue of Paul and which books are valid and which are spurious, so this is wonderfully timed. I just have one little thing that bugs me: the sound effects are distracting and kind of obnoxious. They seem to have been toned down in this video, as opposed to how they come off in the one about the authorship of the gospels, in which I find myself too distracted and annoyed to watch the whole video in one go. But really, the biggest thing is that I *love* how much information you offer here. The footnotes that pop up at the bottom are often great clarifiers, too. Is there a resource we can go to that has links or citations for the material where you get your information? For instance, there's all this info about when the letters were written, and how they're stylistically different, and sometimes you'll add a footnote that points to a resource. Cool, but is there, like, a spreadsheet or page full of links to the data? Just wondering. Love your channel, regardless. Wonderful stuff.
"A lot of lives would have been saved if the commandment on slaves had been excluded." The veracity of the text would have been shaken as you are trying to do, the religion would have been smashed far more ruthlessly as seditious, and earthly political concerns would have been emphasised over Christlike acceptance of the world's limitations and focus on heavenly matters. Plus, the "socially inevitable" view of slavery means that it simply wasn't the same moral question then.
It is also a bit peculiar that such a large percentage of the books in the new testament were written by one self selected guy. A guy who could be seen as an innovative self promoter with an unconvincing connection (or commitment) to the central ideas at the foundation of the movement. .
Fantastic video! Do you have a works cited page? I’m wanting to delve a bit more deeply into all of these arguments as someone who deals with the academic side of Christian development pretty frequently.
Paul, I would love to have access to your reading lists. It astounds me the amount of background knowledge that goes into your videos….. If you were to give a top-5 list of books that have been influential to your channel, what would that be?
17:46 Might it have been the reverse, that the author of Acts was copying something from 2 Timothy? How would we know which is the case? How would we know which copied from the other? I'm not arguing that this makes 2 Timothy an authentic writing of Paul. I'm just wondering how we tell which came first when one document shares such similarities with another.
I also wondered this. I look forward to seeing apologists (particularly Inspiring Philosophy) respond to this video, then to Paulogia responding to their critiques, then apologists responding to his response, etc. This is probably only the beginning of what could be a very fruitful discussion.
Looking back at my years spent in church, it’s amazing that there’s this huge culture of people who fawn over passages from these letters without any literary understanding of them. Thank you for making videos like these.
From you, high praise. Thank you for all you do, sir.
It's pretty cool to see my two favorite creators commenting on each other's deeper videos
Just for the record, I personally don’t mind at all the time between videos, especially when this kind of thoroughly researched content is the end result. Fantastic episode!
Appreciate that
I can definitely second that, as I’m sure everyone who values honesty, objectivity, and we might as well throw in integrity, would agree with.
I just wish you had more time for other areas that would sure benefit from your knowledge and experience in sorting through this and all of the incredibly tangled topics that you take on.
Thank you
@@Paulogia honestly, weekly videos are a drag and probably the quickest way to lose regular viewers
@@longcastle4863 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
Quality over quantity yes
I'm glad to see this authentic video of Paulogia, and not a version of pseudo-Paulogia.
Lol. NICE.
But not one _Because the Bible tells me so_ jingle in the whole episode. Are we sure this is an authentic Paulogia?
I suspect this is not a real Paulogia video.
Experts on UA-cam claim that the graphic style is distinct from Paulogia as we never see his face or an animated version of him so take this with a grain of salt.
@@YourghostuncleAnd this one has uncharacteristic whooshing sounds!
I was ready to comment that you missed the biggest theological issue w/ these being forgeries, but you saved it for the end. You hit the nail on the head. What you describe at the end, was me. As a believer, I refused to look at anything that denied the inerrancy of the Bible. Since it didn't have truth as it's foundation, or so I thought, it wasn't worth looking at. Which is why when I stopped believing, I had 4 decades of science to catch up on.
I was about to post that same comment. 😂 Paulogia saved the biggest bomb for last.
@@Fade2GrayOG A big bomb indeed especially if we think way "outside the box". Consider this: I'm not a conspiracy guy, but IF some unknown outside agency - whether natural or supernatural - - wanted to create & sustain one of the biggest & world changing false but incredibly efficient & effective worldviews, what better way to keep the sheep in the pen than to include the idea that everything in the teachings is inerrant by Godly default so that the sheep will effectively "doubt their own doubt" when confronted with opposing facts that will - inevitably - be exposed? The more popular the religion gets the more likely it is that skeptics will eventually put two and two together. It makes sense to have a "catchall" defense to convince the sheep that they have the correct worldview for countless generations to come. Something to ponder!
"Science" is not inventions made in the society called experts minds. Q document is an invention. They have zero evidence to support it but treat it's existence as real.
Oh, just possibly you have different observations of the same event. Instead these so called science believe in their own device.
I bet you you switch from hierarchy since you trust is in men.
Inspiring Philosophy will find out that Paul made an error on a date by two weeks in this video and do a three hour stream about it.
He'll bring in help and go 4 hours, beating the proverbal dead horse into glue.
My bet is that he'll respond with 'sure, there are some anomalies - but look at all the similarities', thus completely missing the point that it's the anomalies that give us good reason to doubt their authenticity.
Three hour stream featuring a pseudo-scholar with a fake PhD whose primary focus is unhinged homophobia.
@@bengreen171IP and the point aren't on speaking terms.
He can start with "the German writer Franz Kafka" who was from Prague. (But he did write in the German language, which is clearly what Paul meant.)
3:58 What's even stranger, to me, is that when JK Rowling wrote in an unrelated adult genre, crime, under a male pseudonym, Robert Galbraith (with a backstory of a being a former police), she was still discovered to be the author.
this happened to Stephen King too
@@aronjanosov9046 We can usually identify a singer's voice, so I guess it shouldn't surprise us that we can recognize a writer's voice.
But, even having written ten novels, I find it weird...
Which reminds me, I wrote 3 crime novels as a ghost and some of the reviews note that the writing was different, but not, at least in the reviewer's mind, from a different writer.
Yeah but that’s in real life tho..😊
She made the mistake of naming one of the criminals Harry Weasley. That made people suspicious . . . .
Lol you said that like she even attempted to actually conceal who she was. Now stephen king would have been a better one to use 🤷♂️
hey paul, been struggling with faith going back and forth, your videos are nothing short of well researched and put together. Thank you for that
Glad to help
Paul and a lot of former Christians know that pain, it's why he takes care to not talk down or demean people who still believe. I respect you for both being willing to question your faith, and for being willing to watch criticisms of it as I find far too many are incapable of either. I believe whether you come out of things as a reinforced Christian, or a new baby atheist, that you will be a better person for the mere act of interrogating your beliefs sincerely. I wish you the best Ryan, and do remember, if you end up losing your faith, focus on the benefits religion did provide, and move past the "being lied to" part. Too many end up vengeful for that.
@Aryasvitkona
That's utter Krapola. You think Paul is not demeaning or holds Christians in derision?
Listen to him in other conversations. Nothing but patronizing.
@@theol64 you are wrong
Started watching Paul years ago- he has expressed nothing but kindness and grace to his opponents. You are looking for something to get mad at
@@Aryasvitkona thank you. Your reply is nothing short of kind- and that’s something that is lacking on the internet
The reason Jesus didn't choose Paul as a disciple during his earthly existence is because he knew Paul would just be god-splaining to him the whole time.
Paul never met jesus,road to Damascus spring to mind??
@@patobrien235Exactly. He avoided Paul until after dying, so he would only have to talk to him once 😆
@@evangedeon2194was Paul actually alive, as an adult in Judea, while jesus was alive. Oh protnot
@@evangedeon2194 Paul had a vision
@@patobrien235 Correct, jesus never "met" paul. paul had a vision of a bright light with a voice speaking to him.
That is not what "meeting" means. Otherwise the disciples meeting jesus makes the whole story worse.
"Tradition" is an interesting argument.
It is important to remember that for centuries, scholars could not challenge the authorship of any NT books for fear of sanction, imprisonment, or even death. So to say that "Tradition" is an endorsement of the accepted authorship is silly.
I enjoy reminding apologists that 'tradition' is not 'history' otherwise they would be calling it 'history'.
@@Julian0101 well they do call it history, regardless of your stern warning
That is the thing, they dont call it "history", they call it "tradition". It doesnt matter what they consider it if they freudian slip it.
"Heretic" Christians probably put at least as much effort into condemning the forgeries in the Bible as the "Orthodox" Christians spent condemning heretical forgeries.
They call it tradition because history is for heathens who hate god because they want to sin, so they make up archaeological sites that contradict tradition.
Surprisingly, they all were written by a guy named Paul. Just not *that* Paul.
Pawl 😂
@@CatDaddyGuitar And Pall.
If you read The Second Epistle to Abbey Road backwards it clearly states that Paul was the walrus.
@@CatDaddyGuitarPaw.
@@CrowManyCloudsPaul is dead.
The Beatles replaced him with a body double.
Hey Paulogia! I notice this video is pretty recent so I wanted to say as a Christian I really value what you’re doing here. I’m not committed to any dogmas that disallow me to critically engage with biblical scholarship and when it comes to your content I really appreciate your objectivity! Also, you’re not disrespectful and you don’t talk down to religious people you disagree with. Much appreciated! ❤
We as members of Paul’s community respect you for taking the time to watch! Here is to hoping that more Christians liken you continue to pop up! Remember that you are respected and appreciated by someone!
@@locomeon_0 if it inspires hope in you at all, since I know there are many Christians who are very dogmatic, let me assure you I have many Christian friends who see things similarly to the way I do and can also critically engage with biblical scholarship. Thank you!
Massive props to you for being willing and able to accept criticism of what many would claim to be the inerrant word of god, while still maintaining the underlying belief. You're my favourite type of christian because while your belief in god is sincere, you're willing to believe some or even most of the bible is at the very least tainted with the writers opinions and ideals, if not entirely forged. It's something that I respect and think the world would be far better off if all religious people held such beliefs. I tip my hat to you and wish you a good day
@@locomeon_0yeah. I believe there are probably a few of us like OP and me. There have got to be more ex-fundies who continued in their Christian faith, and there are plenty of Gary Habermas folks and Episcopalians and such.
what church do you go to? asking for a friend
25:09 Insane how you can just say “everything in here is true because I say so” and mostly everyone was just like “okie dokie” for hundreds of years 💀
Well, there were some swords and nooses involved.
This is excellent quality - For such a heavy presentation you've kept things extremely concise and maintain a strong focus on relevance and impact. Wonderful work, sir.
Appreciate. thank you.
I know a lot of scholars just shrug their shoulders when you ask them who wrote the Book of Hebrews🤷🏿♂️🤷🏿♂️🤷🏿♂️
Nah seriously who wrote it?
This was a very fun video presentation for doubting all the pauline letters in the NT were written by Paul. ❤❤❤
Thank you, brother.
Seriously, dude - hearts? Wow,.
@@jamiehudson3661That’s the trademark of the Halmstad Brewery. 😄🍺
@@jamiehudson3661 Seriously dude - wows? Wow,.
@@andruloni I guess you like hearts as well.
Production quality is off the charts.
That art, ah.
Yes you’re right, I usually don’t look at the screen while I’m listening but now that you mention it there’s a lot of work being done. It doesn’t matter to me, but maybe someone who’s here for the first time might recognize the effort and pay more attention than they would to a guy in a car
The drawings of Paul... oh, let me rephrase that, the AI generated images of Paul as some professional wrestler-level of body building, facial hair grooming, stare-down-your-enemy-in-the-ring look - yeah, "off the charts" is one way to describe it.
yeah, I'm not sure about all this AI 'art'. what are we selling for the sake of convenience ??
One of my favorite things about Paulogia is the lack of filler stories, reiterating, and time wasting. The content is concise, clear, and presented as an intellectual persuit.
Aw yeah! I was just rewatching the video on the gospels earlier today, sad that there hasn’t been a new Paulogia video in a while. These kinds of videos are so accessible for people who aren’t already familiar with the topic.
And they're family friendly.
On average, he's released a new video every 9 days this year. (Yes, I have a spreadsheet.)
And since the beginning of 2003, it's every 7 days.
(this does not include any videos he makes on The Line, his shorts, or his Paulogia Live channel. Just this channel.)
But also, his average video length time has been trending up.
All the art for your early Christians makes them look like they're going to try to sell me Ka'Chava and V-Shred
Paul has introduced the BiblaChad.
Paul casually looking like a Viking morning routine here 😅
The production value of this video, especially the animations, is so good. A really entertaining and educational vid.
No comparisons between using someone else's emojis as your clip art, and pasting Pauline passages into Colossians? (:
Just a slight observation: Franz Kafka is not German, but a Czech writer. Nevertheless, I give an A+ ti this video, and all the meticulous work Paulogia do!
Kafka was Czech, but everything he wrote was in German.
Was going to point out the same thing. But of course _in context_ what mattered to the point was that Kafka wrote in the German language.
Prague was part of the Austrian Empire for most of his life, much of the population of Prague was German at the time, and his family were Jews...so assigning an ethnicity is going to be a really mixed bag.
When Paul said "all scripture", would he not be referring to the old testament (tora or tanak?) , since the new one has not been written yet???
Yes - but the point is that if 2 Timothy was written by a much later author, claiming to be Paul presumably so as to be taken more seriously, that's a reason to question its very place in the canon. And by extension, its doctrines.
Literalists would probably point to 2 Peter 3:16 where "Peter" calls Paul's letters scripture.
Unfortunately, this letter is an even more obvious forgery.
@@hearts285 Seriously? 2 Peter 3:16 directly informs 2 Timothy 3:16?
This can't actually count as my TIL, since I also watched this video today and learned many things, but it's a pretty fun fact.
I wrote them.
I agree, i was there when you wrote that you wrote them.
@@Julian0101Agreed, I was the 501st witness there when they were writing it.
You borrowed my pen to write them and I never got it back
And I am Alpharius.
@@dougt7580And I know a guy whose brother's best friend's fiancee said she met the 501st witness!
Paul was a visionary who ALLEGEDLY wrote down his thoughts which came to be known among pious Christians as The Letters of St. Paul.
I read some of his letters and found them uninspiring and mostly nonsensical babbling about his imaginary world of angels, demons prophecies and competing gods.
So glad I am an agnostic atheist outsider free to inspect religious cults as a curious human phenomenon.
But Paul visited the third heaven (although he was not certain if it was in the body or out of the body). You cannot argue with him once you know that /s
@@rthompsonmdog Oh neat! What’s the second heaven? I’m dying to know. lol
@@GabrielEddy I understand your excitement, but Paul does not mention first or second heavens or if there are more than three.
@@rthompsonmdog If there is a _third heaven_ then logic follows that there is also a second heaven. What do your clerics or scholars say?
@@GabrielEddy I don't have any clerics (I did play D&D as a teen), but based on 2 Corinthians 12 that Paul believed there were at least 3 (levels of?) heavens. I don't know if he is mistaken or lying, but suspect one or the other.
Excellent breakdown. Even though I've studied these epistles with a skeptical eye, so much of this specific evidence was still new to me. Thank you as always for your work, Real Paul 😉
What incredible stunning graphics/presentation. (And the info, too, of course.)
I'm on the opposite of this. Things moving in and out at break-neck speed. Almost no time to read the text in blue at the bottom of the screen. The zooming in and out when the blue bar appears/disappears. But that's just me.
It's also mainly AI generated, which I find objectionable. @@Gremriel
@Gremriel the pause button exists for a reason 🤷♂️
@l0rf then why are you here?🤷♂️
@@Gremriel try "pause" or slow the playback speed
Chrissy Hansen has a new book out challenging the authenticity of Philemon called "The Empty Prison Cell."
Indeed! Cant wait to read
Yes, it's been a while since your last video, but it's definitely worth the wait. I've always wondered why those six letters are disputed, and now I know better. Thanks, as always, Paulogia.
After listening to a recent interview with Dr. Mark Bilby. I have changed my viewpoint. From his computer analysis of Paul's letters and the Gospels, they were all written in stages by different authors. So it is difficult to place a timeline for the time these books were written.
I would love to see an in depth video like this on the authorship of the other books like the Peters, etc.
Appreciate the feedback.
This is just one of the many problems when god gets lazy and relies on humans to construct, maintain, and transmit messages.
Scribe: "Hey, God, here's the rough draft..."
God: "Yeah, I trust you. It's fine. "
Even in the "authentic" letters, because of the method of transmitting them, might be MOSTLY true, but a different phrase or even a different word might totally change generations of scholarly debate over what he said.
@@CatDaddyGuitar God: ZZzzzzzz!
@@johnnehrich9601If our eternal fate is at stake, that's grossly negligent and irresponsible.
@@dougt7580 True but since it is all bosh and nonsense, so what?
Whoooah, Thessalonians warn against fakes? That's sus AF. "This letter is real, seriously, so real, I promise it's real not at all fake as those other letters you got, it is totally real!"
Paulogia, thankyou for explaining all this! I had to listen to most , yesterday,(interrupted, as uaual) then again, (and finish) today. A lot of info here!👍🏼🌊💙💙💙🌊🥰✌🏽
It is a bit interesting to view paul as a first century Joseph Smith
Or Muhammad. The big difference is Paul doesn't 'make up' stuff about him getting extra wives. I think he genuinely believed (whether or not you think he was right).
@@albino_penguin2268
Yes Paul probably genuinely believed… then again lots of people genuinely believe the earth is flat, or that scientology is real. People also tend to believe things are real when it is in their self interest… or when they think a story like Santa Clause is in the best interest of the listener. If you tell a white lie that helps get someone to salvation… is it really a lie? I wonder if joseph smith came to believe his story?
UA-cam is amazing. This is more information that what we would get in a college course.
Yay! New video 🙌🏻
Lol, Colossians is like 2nd Century ChatGPT--chopped up copies of earlier works rearranged to appear new
Which stands for Guest-Paul/Tertius (the scribe who assisted Paul in writing Romans).
Looking forward to seeing Inspiring Philosophy and other Christian apologists desperately trying to refute this 😁 great video
Algorithm engaged
Obligatory reply to further engage said algorithm.
What he said
Yes Cap'n.
@@crisdekker8223 Make it so
25:57 “If you can’t go there, maybe ask yourself: how would you ever know if you are wrong?”
Well put.
It takes a bold mind to think outside the box. For me it eventually boiled down to whether I actually “loved” truth or if I was just a TSINO - Truth Seeker In the Name Only.
That's one thing that stands out to me as unchanged about myself as a then Christian and now atheist: I always wanted to know what's true. My mind was just changed about whether Christians' claims are indeed so.
This presentation is masterfully done. I am impressed by how concise and easy-to-follow the large quantity of data was presented. Well done!
Just to be a nitpicker. The letters aren't written in ancient Greek, but koine Greek which is much simpler. I've studied them both enough to know I'd prefer to work in koine Greek, over ancient Greek.
well, i'd argue that 2000 years old is ancient, so while it might not be in Ancient Greek, it is in greek that is ancient, so technically Paulogia was totally correct the entire time. (This is my impression of an ~~apologist~~ excusigist)
You are right, but it would be like suggesting that Beowulf is the same a modern English.
Wow, that was just an amazing episode. Both in terms of content and animations. Thank you!
I did an analysis of these books as my coursework for Natural Language Processing in my Masters programme but I didn't come up with good results. This was one of the first courseworks I did and it was simplistic and rushed. I've often thought about going back and redoing it.
You really should! I know I’d be interested.
I really like the use of images! It's really engaging and helps keep my ADHD attention. Love multimodal learning!
Kenneth Humphreys posits that Paul was just a literary character. 🤷♂️
It's a possibility. but, then why are paul's writting so banal ? ie. no jesus stories, like the gospels ?
I personally believe Paul existed.
If any of these letters were genuine, Paul would have explained the changes in theology, to not confuse his audience, or address criticism of these changes. The stylistic differences with no in-text justification of differing theology is a clencher for me.
Imagine if they took the personal letters of Thomas Jefferson and Albert Einstein as scripture? 🤔❓📜
According to my autographed Arameic Bible Paul often cheated at playing cards. Though if you read between the lines the Author kinda sucked at playing cards. 🤔 So it is possible that Paul was good at playing cards and that Author was a sore loser.
One defender of 1 & 2 Timothy being early works had an argument centered around the quotation of Luke. The problem is that 1 Timothy, Luke, and Acts are all suspected of being late 1st/early 2nd forgeries. It shows by the end of the 1st century that a large departure from the original faith had occurred.
my fingers never been so agile to clicked on a video so fast
PAULOGIA DID YOU DO THESE DRAWINGS?! The art style and quality is simply impeccable it's so beautiful!
I think they are most likely AI, but crafting the prompts so well must have taken work to get the right results for this particular video.
Just want to point out this more recent work pointed out by one of Dan McClellan's videos, "The Invention of the Inspired Text: Philological Windows on the Theopneustia of Scripture by John C. Poirier
on what looks like a misunderstood interpretation of what "God breathed" likely meant for the early church.
The suggestion is that it's better understood as life-giving than god-inspired. The idea of Inspiration was later imposed on the term by Origen.
I'll check that out.
Importantly, this is not a new idea at all. You can see the same points made by Poirier about the expression "god-breathed" in 2 Timothy in earlier works, like in Evangelical scholar, Crag A. Allert, "A High View of Scripture?"
@@Paulogia also, excellent video Paul. Really appreciate the care you take to document your commentary and provide the receipts. There are a couple instances where I wish there was more but I can only imagine how much work it is to produce something this well polished. I'm looking forward to sharing it around.
Thanks for pointing this out, I also mentioned it in my comment. It's one of the most pervasive misreadings that has led to some of the worst apologetic copes to deal with contradictory perspectives in the Bible
@@soarel325 agreed. I've talked with a few Christians about it and pointed them to the recent book but never hear anything back. Unfortunately radio silence.
The danger in dogmas like inspiration or inerrancy is that it blocks rational thought on everything else and, even in the sincerest of approaches "to know and love God", creates a cult mentality that is hard to break
So glad you kept the series up!
One thing I haven't seen being discussed is that Paul is not the only author in many letters. Of the undisputed letters, Sosthenes also is cited as an author in 1 Corinthians and Timothy in 2 Corinthians and Philippians. With Silas alongside Timothy being mentioned in 1 Thessalonians.
Of the disputed letters, Colossians was also written by Timothy and 2 Thessalonians by Silas and Timothy. Would that change anything? If Timothy and Silas had larger roles in writing Colossians and 2 Thessalonians would that explain some of the inconsistencies or not? Like if Paul told Timothy and Silas to write using his first letter then they would have copied some stuff right? Or it just doesn't explain anything?
As someone else here pointed out, the style of Greek being written can be as personal as your actual penmanship. Friends and followers of Paul would likely have learned it, BUT then again, there is a chance they could’ve nonetheless. It wouldn’t really explain the major theological differences, though, would it?
You are really mastering your presentation style of these complex and abstract ideas.
Super-cool work.
Holy cow. Is that Paul of Tarsus or Solomon Kane?!
When I was in seminary, this was a very difficult issue. Growing up in a tradition that essentially venerated the Bible (inerrancy, infallibility), the idea that a book of the Bible could be written by someone other than the claimed author seemed close to heresy.
The argument that eventually convinced me was the development of the church as an institution in the questioned letters. At that time I knew Greek, and I understood the theological arguments fairly well, but I could explain those away (for whatever reason). But the development of the church, with recognized offices, systems to care for widows, strict household codes and AMONG GENTILES? That just did not square with what we knew about the historical Paul’s lifetime. There’s just not enough time from his conversion to death.
Even if *his* thinking evolved, we would have to accept that he persuaded all of the churches he evangelized to have followed his same evolution and then built out all of that infrastructure in a very short amount of time.
And yes, there are scholars who will make detailed arguments about how it is technically possible, but for me, it strains credulity.
And then, I started considering all the other from a different perspective, and it became extremely difficult to defend traditional Pauline authorship. It becomes an exercise in special pleading.
0:17 Paul looks like Rationality Rules.
you can say I am out the cult of atheism and I want go back to God, do right now, ok?
I sat enraptured watching this: the quality of information, the unpacking it in a flowing easy-to-follow narrative, and the beautiful graphs & animation .. this is a friggin masterpiece.
4 years ago I’d have hated it, blinded as I was by how this video ends: my conclusion was predetermined by 2 Tim 3:16 so my array of thought-stopping thoughts would been going furiously. Anyway “I had the Holy Spirit” who spoke to me clearly through these doubtful letters, so case closed … forming my perfect loop. Plus I memoried Ephesians so I had extra “sunken cost fallacy” (it’s also a “Calvinist” classic, so my tribal identity would be at stake also).
I watched with a big smile: this really hit home. The repetition of chunks of other letters, which I used to claim as bolstering the authenticity, is clearly the other way. The vocabulary and theme stuff blew my mind .. esp the institutional aspect that seems to be the point of some epistles. Also the change from “don’t marry unless you’ll burn with passion, cos the end is almost here” to “have a nuclear family, and set them in hierarchical boundaries” - my eyes were opened to this after 40yrs!
But what really made me hang my head was the part about how this has negatively impacted and even destroyed untold ppl: Slavery and the subjugation of women - words cannot express, when I saw that I cannot now unsee it.
Good work Paul, I this UA-cam will in the coming years hit ppl like hit did me, as someone who like you loved these things sincerely. Using Paul’s citing of fake letters is enough of an appeal that I hope old me would pause to think - as is the appeal for truth.
Paul, would it be possible in future videos to move the lil popups of stuff like at 0:10 a bit higher? When I pause the video to read it youtube's video control stuff partly covers it.
Whomever the author of those letters are, I doubt they wrote them thinking it would be considered the `word of God.` I suspect they would have taken more time with the concepts if they had.
Interesting video. Though I don't think the absence of the seven letters would've made that much of a difference. Theologians have never been short of ways to justify whatever their paymasters want justified.
David Letterman did it..
nominative determinism strikes again
As always, another great video. Thanks!
Very disapointed by the use of AI art.
Art is a human endeavour. ai generates images, not art
3:20 Regarding burden of proof - If something has been accepted in a traditional context, for centuries, but never actually went through rigorous evidential examination, then the assumption it is accurate is implicitly a claim, an unsupported claim.
People who accept any of the writings as the work of Paul have a burden of proof. _And_ the same applies to those who reject any of those writings as the work of Paul. BOTH are making claims. "Tradition" is not an adequate excuse.
Marcion in the early/mid 2nd century. There's way too much connective tissue between the Marcionites and "Paul." And several of Paul's passages are definitely gnostic. As well as the circumcision debate placed in the 1st century makes a WHOLE lot more sense if you shift it tp the early 2nd century when In 132 CE Emperor Hadrian issued an edict forbidding castration. This was meant primarily as a prohibition against castrating slaves, but it quickly morphed into and included any genital mutilation…eventually extending to JEWISH CIRCUMCISION. -This is considered one of the main impetuses for the Bar-Kokhba war of 132-135 CE again in Judea.
-But at the SAME TIME across the wider empire this is a completely logical impetus for Christians to BEGIN debating whether circumcision is necessary. Especially since doing so had overnight become a capital offense. With Greek Christians (under the Marcionites and other Gnostic sects) moving firmly away from the practice under “Paul” as a figurehead to argue the trivial nature of a Jewish religious requirement for a new religion swiftly moving away from Judaic practices as a whole... In the 2nd century.
Marcion is another indication that at least the pastoral epistles (Timothy and Titus) were not genuine, as Marcion, a devotee of Paul, did not include them in his Bible.
In fact they were probably written by Polycarp or any of Marcionism’s detractors. Timothy was also apparently favored by Marcion, so 1 Timothy seems to end with a knife-twist aimed directly at him.
Of course, Marcion wasn’t even born until decades after Paul died, so any letter addressing Marcionism would have to be pseudepigraphical.
I disagree about circumcision. It makes perfect sense for Paul to be concerned about it. According to his letters, he saw himself as the apostle to the gentiles.
Adult circumcision is a lot to ask of an adult, especially a gentile. And it is a key part of Judaism.
So it makes perfect sense to me that the Jewish Christians would butt heads with Paul who knew that circumcision was going to kill the gentile mission.
I would also be interested to hear what you think Paul says that is gnostic. Paul's favorite talking point is how the death of Jesus brings salvation. (ex. 1 Corinthians 1:2).That is basically the opposite of gnosticism.
@@hearts285 No, you're completely ignoring what Hadrian's edict would MEAN for christianity and its judaic ties immediately in 132 CE. The Jews went to war with Rome THAT year. And Greek christians (who won the debate) dropped circumcision. The whole fantasy story of Paul/Acts is a christian smokescreen for this real world debate/crisis.
@@hearts285 1 Corinthians 2:6-7: “6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare God's wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.”-That is the gnostic tenant of hidden knowledge only available to those initiated and advanced in the cult.
@@williambeckett6336 No what I'm saying is there is no reason to invoke it.
Paul's concerns about circumcision in Galatians make perfect sense in a First Century context before the destruction of the 2nd temple. Paul had perfectly reasonable practical and theological motives for preaching against gentile circumcision and gentile Christians had perfectly reasonable motives for agreeing with him.
I must cite the advice given to me about the New Testament by my high school religion class teacher Mister Nielsen, "Just focus on the Gospels & Acts, after Acts, the new Testament devolves into a bunch of nonsense!
Personally I believe in Biblical Errancy-I'm pretty sure the bible is full of errors. :D
ha! 🤣
13:34 “charismatic spiritual gifts” - tautology of the day. Love you, Paul! Paulogia Paul, not apostle Paul, but he’s cool too
lol. I just did synonyms in my head “gifty spiritual gifts”. Gifty ghosty gifts? Gifty pneumatic charismata?!?
There is little of Jesus in Christianity. It is really Paulism and he never met Jesus.
It is silly nonsense either way but Paul made up his own ideas.
Paulianity*
Reddit university is not legit. I repeat, not legit.
@@drsatan9617
So the Perils of Pauline then.
@@joe5959
This is from the Bible, not Reddit.
@joe5959 Jesus teaches to welcome sinners, yet Christians fight against sinners.
Abortion clinics, gay marriage, trans rights etc.
Why would they do the exact opposite of what Jesus taught?
It's because Jesus is not as important to Christians as they say.
This is an absolutely fantastic video. I'd love to see more stuff like this. Paul, I'd love to see you exploit this by getting reactions from scholars like Ehrman or Bowen or even professional anathema Richard Carrier.
The video I didn't know I needed. Thank you sir
Dr. Larry Kreitzer wrote an interesting book a while back arguing that Ephesians was originally written by a Colossian Christian to Colossae’s daughter-church in Hierapolis. If true this might mean it was only attributed to Paul after it “went viral” and “left its target audience.”
7:27 The 'Paul' on the left is quite dapper.
As I sat listening to the comparisons between these books, even though it has been some years since I rejected the Christian faith, I felt as though I was being slapped in the face or had ice water dumped on my head. This in a good way.
I had grown up in a very conservative church where Bible inerrancy was promoted quite heavily yet even back then these differences were quite perplexing in my studies. I was hard pressed to find the answers until the absence of univocality and the added questions of who actually wrote these things was brought to my attention years later. Thank fir the added insight Paul.
I’ve been a huge fan of your work since the beginning basically. This video also is a great summary of these arguments against the authorship of Paul for these 6 letters, while also acknowledging the authorship of the other ones. One suggestion: the visuals could use some more work, I really like the cartoony-style of your other videos btw. Is there anyone in your Patreon-group who would like to volunteer in this?
I was going to write the letters of Paul - - but then things got really busy at work.
*Secretaries?*
“I, Paul, am writing this with my own hand.” Philemon 1:19.
I infer that other epistles were in the handwriting of Paul’s secretary or secretaries. If there is no significant difference in style, etc, between Philemon and the other genuine epistles, then the secretary defense for the others is even less likely, because having a secretary didn’t affect style, ie. the secretaries were likely talking down Paul’s words _verbatim._
I should say that one of the things about Koine Greek (the version of Greek used in the New Testament) is that word order in a sentence was often arbitrary and used for emphasis by the speaker/writer. The endings and prefixes of the individual words (conjugating as we called it in my high school Spanish classes) in a sentence were what determined the function of the word in a sentence.
And ofc, people would have certain trends and habits they would develop as they learned the language or as they absorbed it as a child learning it as their native language. These habits in word order and choice can be fairly common and often would betray how much education the person in question had (particularly as Greek scholars would have rather specific preferences they'd pass on to their students).
Paul is well-known for having a very unique style of prose. As a result, it's actually a lot easier to see his habits and patterns in his writings and those habits and patterns also make it rather obvious when a letter that was supposed to be written by Paul doesn't match. A person's method of constructing a sentence could be as unique as their personal handwriting in some cases and Paul is definitely one of those cases.
Excellent episode. Very concise and the graphics are great!
Another excellent explainer of the issues behind canonical books of the New Testament!
Of all your excellent work, this video is a particularly special gem. Very informative!
Nobody ever copies my essays, because , as a native German speaker, I have a tendency to structure my sentences in complex subordinate clauses, avoiding run-on sentences while also writing monstrous sentences.
@@RealPumpkinJay but even just talking about German syntax makes me hungry for schnitzel, with jagger gravy …😋
throw me down the stairs my hat, out for dinner shall I go!
mmmm… gravy (:-{|)
Just wanted to say I enjoy how you use ai images in such a good way to help with understanding. ☺️
Thank you, so much for your terse and non-repeating presentation. So many presenters act like we need repetition in order to understand and forget that we have the ability to replay anything we may not have understood on first pass.
I love this channel, thanks Paul. Your honesty and integrity are much appreciated. ❤
You offer really great information, as usual. I've been meaning to learn more about the issue of Paul and which books are valid and which are spurious, so this is wonderfully timed. I just have one little thing that bugs me: the sound effects are distracting and kind of obnoxious. They seem to have been toned down in this video, as opposed to how they come off in the one about the authorship of the gospels, in which I find myself too distracted and annoyed to watch the whole video in one go.
But really, the biggest thing is that I *love* how much information you offer here. The footnotes that pop up at the bottom are often great clarifiers, too. Is there a resource we can go to that has links or citations for the material where you get your information? For instance, there's all this info about when the letters were written, and how they're stylistically different, and sometimes you'll add a footnote that points to a resource. Cool, but is there, like, a spreadsheet or page full of links to the data? Just wondering.
Love your channel, regardless. Wonderful stuff.
Great video, Paul! I was a Christian years ago, but I never studied the Bible this thoroughly. This is fascinating stuff!
22:39 Nice to see Sir Sic making a cameo appearance. 😄
It is amazing how much more welcoming and liberal churches are that don't believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of God.
"A lot of lives would have been saved if the commandment on slaves had been excluded." The veracity of the text would have been shaken as you are trying to do, the religion would have been smashed far more ruthlessly as seditious, and earthly political concerns would have been emphasised over Christlike acceptance of the world's limitations and focus on heavenly matters. Plus, the "socially inevitable" view of slavery means that it simply wasn't the same moral question then.
It is also a bit peculiar that such a large percentage of the books in the new testament were written by one self selected guy. A guy who could be seen as an innovative self promoter with an unconvincing connection (or commitment) to the central ideas at the foundation of the movement. .
When I was first watching your videos and you mentioned some of Paul's letters were forgeries my mind was BLOWN.
Fantastic video! Do you have a works cited page? I’m wanting to delve a bit more deeply into all of these arguments as someone who deals with the academic side of Christian development pretty frequently.
where did you get these awesome graphics? did you partner with an illustrator? or AI? or maybe stock illustrations?
Unfortunately I think they're AI generated.
Impressive and well researched, well done again!
This was fantastically in-depth, thank you so much for making this ❤
Paul, I would love to have access to your reading lists. It astounds me the amount of background knowledge that goes into your videos….. If you were to give a top-5 list of books that have been influential to your channel, what would that be?
17:46 Might it have been the reverse, that the author of Acts was copying something from 2 Timothy? How would we know which is the case? How would we know which copied from the other?
I'm not arguing that this makes 2 Timothy an authentic writing of Paul. I'm just wondering how we tell which came first when one document shares such similarities with another.
I also wondered this. I look forward to seeing apologists (particularly Inspiring Philosophy) respond to this video, then to Paulogia responding to their critiques, then apologists responding to his response, etc. This is probably only the beginning of what could be a very fruitful discussion.