I think what people are mad about is the bigger picture: TF2 has been left in an awful state for years, when the community did the SAVETF2 stuff (which was because they had radio silence from valve for years about this game they cared very much about, which was being infested with bots and other issues), Valve said they were listening and working on changes, and then radio silence for more years. Then valve made an announcement allowing for AI games on steam, which had a lot of people worried about the market being flooded with horrible asset flips, which is what happened over when Epic allowed them on their platform. THEN they DMCA'd a passion project. Yes, legally they have the right. But people have stated working on TF2 is a mess because of code spaghetti and the age of Source. The TF2S2 project is the communities way of being like "hey, lets fix this problem ourselves, for free, for the game we love". And then this is what valve decides to take action on, rather than the bot hosting websites or anything else. Its the bigger picture timeline that upsets people.
TF2 is Valve's game. Like it's great people love it and all but the assertion fans make over other people's intellectual property these days is ridiculous.
Thank you for the video, Chet. As a member of the team, it was painful to get hit by the DMCA, but we understand it. While the project had a larger scope than just "TF2 in Source 2", using those assets without a license was the problem. As you stated in the video, copyright exists for a reason, humans have a history of ripping off... On the good side, I learned a heck ton about game development, met a ton of awesome people, and even got into graphics programming when studying TF's character lighting, which I saw as a potential career path. It is sad that the project's gone for good. The sensation was kind of like hearing about an old friend die. The weird thing about this situation is that it took them too long to DMCA us. It is not as if the project was under the radar for 3 years. Maybe Valve lawyers work on Valve Time too?
Haha - glad you are taking it well and a great attitude - it is about what you learned and now on to the next thing. Look forward to see what you make!
@@RoastCDuck you act like you were actively developing it. i agree but it's still a lot of hard work and they would have to implement surfing and trimping into unity, but that would be sick. TFU until TF3 arrives
Valve is 100% in their legal right to have taken down this fan project. However it would have been nice if they also contacted the team and tried to work something out afterwards, although unfortunately they're not obligated to do so either.
There are many nasty things to do within legal rights. Its not like it was commercialized nor there ever will be officially made n64 port of their game.
My issue is that even though, yes, they're within their legal rights -- they've set a precedent in the past that created an environment where people were comfortable with doing what they were creating before. It's the recent inconsistency that really sours people's views on Valve. Most of it is probably from a shift in management, another part of it is the whole tech ecosystem being a lot more protective about IP. Sega, unfortunately, is the last bastion of a company that not only is ok with but also supports fan projects. Drastic changes like this are really fucking demoralizing and shitty, imo. Really tired of all these tech companies flipping random switches in their proverbial breaker boxes.
I think the way Garry said it on his Twitter made a lot of sense. It makes sense why Valve DMCA'd TF2S2, and even if they didn't, the project was about to die anyways due to incoming S&box updates, stated by Garry himself (and the TF2S2 team's announcement). Sadly TF2S2 wasn't just a mod, it was effectively a copy-paste recreation of TF2 in another engine, which is definitely an odd legal area. The project's github itself even said some of the assets in it were owned by Valve and were their IP, which implies that they were using assets that they didn't own. And as for Portal 64... That wasn't even DMCA'd, apparently they contacted the dev, asking if he could rewrite the game in a public N64 library instead of Nintendo's proprietary library so that they can avoid trouble with Nintendo (which is something I'm sure every company strives for), and he said it couldn't be done and opted to take down the project himself instead. I feel like there's just something weird going on with Valve though, the walkback on banning AI in games on steam, and now this DMCA on TF2S2 (even if it's fully within their right). I imagine people are mostly concerned because this is not the Valve they recognize, and there's fear that the company is stepping into 2024 much different than it was in the past
To my knowledge, valve has always been very themselves when it comes to lots of major decisions. I think so long as Gabe sits in the king’s chair they won’t stray too far, but that’s not forever
Valve didn't ban AI games for moral reasons, they banned it cause they didn't want to get sued. All they did was figure out the legalese to redirect the legal consequences onto developers, and now AI games are back. Valve has always allowed all sorts of blatant garbage on its store, cause it can only make them more money in the end.
no company is “the company you knew” it’s not a tv show or your favorite band, it’s a business with attrition and turnover. people and times change, and that’s ok.
@Waffle4569 Yeah It seems that’s why they did that, they said you have to have proof that the AI training model is not using copyrighted material which is very complex how they’re gonna achieve it but it seems like they maybe didn’t know how to do it until now. Hoping that’s the case
I was born a sampler and I'll die a remixer. The demoscene and such fill me with pure joy. I can't imagine I'll never have anything I create under some sort of permissive or creative commons license. Fortress Forever is fun though. I'm terrible at it however.
yeah honestly i grew up on YTP and early gmod animation being able to take something and remold it into something completely alien to its original work is rather magical in a way familiar yet different like a dream or recounting something from the past with a different perspective
I'm personally a bit hooked onto the fact that the takedown notice misspells S&box as "S@box" in both instances it is mentioned. That feels to me like a pretty big detail to misspell in a case like this?
Disney killed creativity because they pushed the duration of copyright protection so hard that it is now past the life of the creator(s) for another extra 70 years. So even when all the ones involved in the making of an idea/project/product/creation are rotting 6 feet under, the company can still have a say in their place about the copyright for another 70 years. This obviously shows that copyright is so extreme that in many cases it no longer exists for the author but rather for the company. Even if a creator loses copyright, it doesn't mean that the creator loses the recognition of being the central real creator of its creation and if they do that means that they either abonded the creation or others are far far more better with creating something within their former copyright that the people's vission of what is legit, what is canon, what is more important starts to shift, legitamacy is decided by the people, and the people want something good. An example is the mickey mouse copyright that is now partly gone, some are now making a horror game about mickey mouse, obviously the people are not gonna think: "OMG mickey looks so creepy is this cannon yo wtf, I didn't know that the mickey was a murderer this lore goed deep yo". No only what disney releases will still be seen as "canon" "real", simply because of legitamacy. That legitamcy can be earned by just being good, and you have the time for it thanks to copyright to be seen as the source of whatever you created If some random dude made a video where mickey dies of ebola, that will obviously not be seen as canon. If tolkien's work with the lord of the rings, the hobbit, etc goes public, there will litteraly be a Tolkien renaissance, A large ammount of people will start to create something within the world of tolkien, fanbooks, videos, movies, games, tolkien songs people can make and sell "whats if's" as it will be legal (just look up on youtube: "lotr what if"), ... .The people will go "crazy" and go "nuts" (wich is what you say is creativty at 9:00). And if somehow tolkien returned and started writing a new book, everyone would obviously sit down and watch carefully, because for what he creates shall be seen as canon/legit/real for the lore of middle earth. legitamacy is something decided within the people and it is a very micro thing, something that can never be systemised on a macro level, copyright however if it is just shorter, can be a shield for the creator to let them create and earn recognition Copyright should last between 6 or 10 years in my opinion and crediting should last until the lifetime of the creator One might think that if copyright is so short, a lot of creators will lose a lot of their income because if you are for example a writer then after 6-10 years the publisher who prints your book no longer have to give you a cut. I would argue then that if one does lose a large amount of income because their copyrigth protection expired after 6-10 years, shouldn't they have kept working and made already new things that they earn from? Isn't it good that the creators know that they need to keep working for their income isn't eternal, so that if someone creates their first book or song or whatever, and its so massively succesfull that they do earn a lot of money for it but only for a fixed amount of time (6-10 years) and that they have to keep working if they want more money. There are many examples of people just releasing a few things that are very succesfull and after that just stop working not just because they earned so much in the beginning but mostly because they keep on earning so much forever. Earning a lot of money because your created something so well made is ofcourse good, but that you keep earning from that for the rest of your life to the point were you can just stop working is too extreme. This whole paragraph ofcourse asumes that the author is the one mostly earning from what they created wich can be true but it can also be the opposite (see paragraph 2). same can be seen with game assets, yes you worked for it and should earn for it, but only for about 6-10 years, because you obviously have made many other things, plus you most likely will make those assets for a company or a project that will actually be giving you money for your work and if you have left the company, you can still be easilly hired because of what you have already made. As long as there is a system of credibility, you can easilty shorten copyrigth to 6-10 years tldr: i just hate disney
Copyright should be reserved for the works that aren't widely known. It doesn't make much sense to implement a global copyright expiration date if the author's works are widely known, the authors are already making a profit out of their works. Do you really care about some Mickey Mouse rip off if we all know that it's a rip off of that work?
@@alexisleskinen6090And that right there is what makes me want to keep the things I make hidden. There needs to be some kind of sanctuary for an IP or else certain people can & will screw you, your team and/or the whole project over, costing you the trade, vision you have for it and, possibly, your dependency on it as the IP may or may not be your life calling as well as being your pride & joy in life. Sidenote: As have many others, I've seen some wholesome things out there be put under the butchers knife and defiled just because a person "can". Humans are destructive but we have the power to control ourselves, we just need to have the will to act on it and set some ground rules so people don't go screwing things up (to some extent, the rules aren't perfect). Nothing wrong keeping some things sacred.
this is some great context and I appreceate the video. I hope valve releases more of an officcial statement soon explaining more of the detailes you could be eluding to.
I hate these people who are going "Valve should be hiring these guys" because it really does show what little they know about Valve, even from the prospective of an outsider and a fan.
So I've got a few stories about Valve's legal team (I have nothing bad to say about it) but first, my hot take: The fact that the DMCA takedown notice came *after* the project announced it would cease development leads me to believe that Valve is just trying to not have legal precedent that someone can take their assets and use them unlicensed. The fact that they waited so long seems to me like they were intentionally turning a blind eye for as long as they could. And now, the stories. I've asked Valve legal questions a few times through Steamworks developer support tickets. Stuff like "can we use these models that are technically based on leaked versions of Half-Life 2 citizens?" (yes, in this specific case), "can we have something like TF2's map stamps for donating to contributors to our mod?" (as long as they are not 'desirable' (that is, they're receipts rather than a product) - although shortly after Valve changed the definition of free source engine mods to allow cosmetic DLC), and so on. Not really much of a story, I guess, but the one time Valve's lawyers did just flat-out say "no" to me so far they gave almost a mathematical proof that what I was asking for wasn't something I should want to do. ("If you make items tradable and they're worthless, you've wasted your time, and if they're not worthless, you've invented a new way for people to get scammed and neither of us have the resources to deal with that for a free mod") (These are paraphrased answers from memory, so Valve's lawyers didn't say any of these sentences exactly to me but the basic idea is right.)
Love the insights. I've been a valve fanboy since 2004 and It's great to get these small snippets of how valve works as a company. Although I feel like they have really changed throughout the years. And the way they operate is starting to look more and more like your traditional AAA company sadly.
I think the problem is that this project was aiming to re-release the entire thing with maybe some stolen code and unchanged assets under the name Team Fortress 2... There is a huge difference between porting a game to another engine and making something like Half-Life: Entropy Zero, Research and Development, etc. which may be reusing some assets but shipping an entirely new experience. This wasn't a new experience nor was aiming to be, in fact, the objective was to release the same game, 1to1. That's where the problem is.
Well put. It surprises me that computer literate people in this day and age can't comprehend that porting stuff between engines isn't the same as actual game development.. and then to create a "studio" and claim it as yours is just blatant stealing.
If it was just this DMCA, I think I'd be more on Valve's side or at least understanding. But I think a lot of community frustration and anger is the bigger picture. Valve's lied (or at least failed to keep promises) to multiple modding teams and to the TF2 community at large. Two years ago Valve was forced to break their silent code to tweet that they heard the "save TF2" movement and the frustration with the bots. They promised they'd work on it, get something done. Two years later the bot problem is still just as bad. Multiple mod teams have been ghosted by Valve after being told they'd get support or get a deal worked out. Valve refuses to do anything with TF2 beyond putting in more cases so they can keep farming money from it. No updates, very small bugfixes, no answers to the years-long bot crisis, etcetera. So this DMCA takedown is seen as sort of icing on a shit cake. Valve's neglected TF2 for years and hasn't done anything meaningful to address the bot crisis, yet still happily releases cases to keep the money flowing, and is now taking down fan projects. While understandable, it leaves a bad taste in the mouths of many, and stirs up long standing grudges against Valve's choices these past several years.
I'd be somewhat alright with them taking down the TFS2 project down due to "Stolen" assets if they made TF2 at least fucking playable and not a landfill to loadout trucks full of dogshit hats and unusual effects every so often. The bots have gotten worse than ever, NOW it's literally unplayable
So does this mean that if I were to make an animation that uses valve's assets in something else than sfm, (in blender for example), could i get dmca'd/sued too? That does not seem right.
Subscribed when you uploaded the why leave valve video, I’ve been a huge valve fan since 2011 or so, I love to hear anything about how valve works/ worked. I live pretty close to the headquarters and I’ve been wanting to visit it a long time. Anyways, thank you for sharing your input. I share all your videos with my friends. : )
Fortress forever is still on Steam! I followed it when it was new. I have a question that probably doesn't have a chance of being answered.. but What does Gabe & the team think of Black Mesa as a remake? Have they played it?
@@chetfaliszek pretty sure the HLA dev team is on record stating that they actually used it as the main reference for "half life one" when working on HLA.
Its really cool seeing this perspectice thank you, im just disappointed with the tweet saying they would be working to fix TF2 and have done nothing to show for it.
They aren't hurt by Valve, Chet, not that I'm aware. Most of the developers of TF2S2 were planning to quit anyways, because S&Box has gotten so screwed up in alpha development that they can't reasonably continue. Kaya, one of the Amper Software developers, said that they had just discussed shutting the project down right before the DMCA arrived. I think they are doing better now that they have moved on.
I think the issue is that this pattern of Valve taking down community projects goes back a bit further than just the current developments. A few years ago, some TF2 mods like Open Fortress and TF2 Classic were asked to be taken down by Valve while they worked out a more legally sound solution to get the projects back up again, but then Valve essentially ghosted the development teams for both projects and nothing ever came of it. So I think there has been some change at Valve with their legal team at least over the past couple years. The Portal 64 situation I think was Valve trying to keep out of Nintendo's sights, since the project used some N64 libraries, I think? I hope that the project can still be reworked to use more legally safe libraries instead. As for Team Fortress Source 2, I really think that Valve's legal right to take it down is ultimately undeserved because of the state of TF2. They don't want anyone making a competing version of the game yet they don't want to bother fixing the issues with the official version. They've hired basically 2 (more or less) contractors to put together updates for the game when the fact of the matter is they need to be putting more resources into fixing what is essentially one of their biggest sources of revenue. Of course, with how much Steam makes them in comparison, they probably don't feel the need to care. But if they choose to abandon parts of their audience like they do, I really don't think that they'll be able to keep themselves afloat with much flexibility in what they can do as a developer. Also when you combine this with Valve's decision to not only release Counter-Strike 2 with far less content than CSGO, but to REPLACE CSGO ENTIRELY in an attempt to force players into their new game, it's a serious tell for Valve having significant internal changes and may be succumbing to practices similar to those seen in the rest of the AAA industry. I don't know if Valve will actually sink as low as the rest, because unlike other AAA companies they're still private and don't have to try and please investors, but only time will tell.
You lose your copyright to a project if you stop updating it? Lol? I guess we better strip copyright from books and CDs - which physically cannot be updated.
@@nolram I mean there's a pretty big N64 modding and development community, surely someone's been working on making their own clean room library implementation, right?
@@Majorwindy not what I said at all. Don't know how you got that from what I said. I said Valve really has no business outside their legal ability to take down projects like this when they aren't actively doing anything meaningful with the IP.
@@theopenrift it’s a direct implication from your logic it’s within their rights given they straight ripped the TF2 assets and code into an unlicensed environment and distributed it. It’s in the DMCA notice and makes total sense. You don’t lose copyright because you dont intensively update your game. Again, people don’t constantly update books or old games - yet their copyright remains. Nobody would argue that it’s acceptable to violate the copyright of Mass Effect or Ratchet & Clank just because they’re not doing much or anything with the franchises. That’s a unique standard being invented for valve.
I think this type of feedback from a community is heavily influenced by overdramatizing and sensationalism content creators tend to use in their news report to increase the engagement. Anyone who dives into this situation a bit deeper will come to the same conclusion as you do even without knowing anything about how things are done in Valve.
my problem with Valve in this whole situation is the same one that has been forever-so consistent with Valve, that problem being poor communication. Valve leaves so much up in the air that people often assume things that aren't true and in my opinion, I don't think it's the fault of those people because even if they did try to clear things with Valve, Valve would just ghost them for entirely way too long (this is a recurring thing with them). And... how do you even contact Valve for something like that?
I think it's pretty important to distinguish what is a mod, and what is a game made on a licensed engine. For example, Insurgency: MIC is a mod for Half Life 2, it requires HL2 to function. Insurgency is a game made on the source engine with a license bought from Valve with it's own unique assets that does not rely on Valve IP. TF2S2 was neither a mod, nor a licensed game, it used TF2 IP and assets and was being remade on S&Box S2 engine without a license from Valve, it seems pretty reasonable for Valve to DMCA the project as it is not legally allowed. Even then, if they had acquired a license, I don't think Valve would have permitted it as TF2 is their IP, so the development team would have had to make their own assets and cast of characters. Even if there is no profit to be made, you are still using intellectual property, and no matter the state of TF2, you cannot use an IP without explicit permission from Valve. This is partly why I think that the other TF2 projects such as TF2C and OF were not looked upon favorably and then ignored, because they used leaked code, and instead of buying the source engine license from Valve and asking them if they're able to create such projects, they were creating these projects without Valve's knowledge that they were using leaked code, it's understandable that Valve lost trust in those projects and did not want them to proceed with leaked code. It becomes easier this way to understand that Valve does not dislike fan projects, but dislikes it when fan projects clearly overstep the boundaries of what is acceptable.
What’s weird to me is them taking these down without communicating to them an alternative they could use to continue the project like valve usually would
Showed up in my recc today... really hope we can get something out of tf2 its insane how much neglect and just silence you get from this game. its not fair,.
Your insight on this is super helpful, and honestly just reinforces my original thought. Garry's Mod includes assets licensed alongside the Source SDK, but for anything else like CS:S, HL:S, TF2, the assets aren't licensed but are imported from your local install. I haven't used TF:S2 personally, but based on the DMCA, I'm guessing the assets in TF:S2 aren't being imported, they're distributed with the gamemode files. So even though TF2's free to play and anyone can get the assets, Amper seemingly was distributing Valve property without licensing it. It sucks that Valve didn't warn them to change it before taking it down, but also lawyers don't care about being good guys to mod teams.
I don’t think they’re ever going to port TF2 to Source 2. There’s not really a reason to, since TF2’s art style is timeless and perfectly suited to Source 1. But it would be nice if they made a TF3 on Source 2 someday.
@@SnrubSource You realize that defending intellectual property is a requirement to maintain that intellectual property, right? They literally have to stop people from stealing their IP, even if the theft is done for something that is beneficial to the community.
tf2 needs a remaster. the game is broken and held together with bandages and duct-tape. so tfs2 was supposed to be a spiritual tf3. even if tfs2 is shut down now, it's still difficult to play regular tf2 with the terrible optimization and the broken hud@@Dave01Rhodes
This isnt particularly new behavior for valve. I remember when Valve threatened to remove the mod "tf2 classic" for using leaked tf2 source code. The team struck a deal with Valve that theyd work with them to get that sorted out but after months of radio silence and with #savetf2 trending they decided to take the risk and release it anyways. I guess valve didnt want to risk the controversy of taking it back down.
I’m curious: if Valve has such a great legal team, why don’t they go after the programmers of the cheats? Can’t stop ‘em, but can sure as heck make cheats/bots tolerable again, right?
They have 100% original code hosted. It would go against their ToS but it's legal to have this programs unfortunately. If it wasn't, then emulation wouuld be ilegal as well (because you are reverse-engineering something)
Cheat developers have been sued countless times by countless developers and every time it has done next to nothing to solve the cheating problem in that particular game.
I just want the TF2 servers to still be up at this point. Honestly I would take a revival of TF2 over Episode 3 even though HL2 is my favorite game. Not that I'm expecting Episode 3, but I'll officially give up after HL2's 20th anniversary.
People are mad a 15 year old game doesn’t get updates anymore and are ignoring the fact whilst yes it was a passion project they had used stolen assets and had no license they had accidentally just uploaded their game this isn’t immoral they took down a basically 1:1 copy of the game
Thanks for your insights. It is slightly unsatisfying as you say, the frustration comes from daily battles with bots and lack of new content, and tf2 source 2 could have been a potential avenue for dealing with that. As someone who only started playing post jungle inferno, it would be so cool to be there for an update sized update, even though the chances are extremely low
I think the majority of anger is due to the neglect the TF2 IP has faced for YEARS but Valve is unwilling to continue development of the IP themselves.
You don't often get these kind of perspectives, especially with Valve. For me a lot of frustration does come from not knowing why. The ambiguity of the industry and Valve like all companies are complicated, ran by various people, all influencing the machine in their own way.
@@hedwig7sit's still not how Valve uses to be Imagine if Valve DMCAd the original counter strike instead of hiring the people behind it If Valve hired the TF2S2A team no one would be upset
@@flamingscar5263 thats.. not how that works. counter strike was using custom made assets, maps, modes, weapons, and voice lines. TF2Source was taking TF2 and hosting it off of valve's ecosystem, and portal64 was using valve's assets, IP, and code combining it with another companies library. there's a massive difference that isnt just "valve isnt letting me do whatever i want with their IP, this is literally 1984"
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought some notorious IP laws, where if you don't defend your IP when you are aware of what people are using it for (like this in an unlicensed manner), then you will have a much harder time defending it later. It would be really nice to see S&box have access to this stuff though. Maybe they can come to some agreement with a asset pack DLC for Valve (& others!).
could you make a video about how source engine licensing work? cause i really really want to used this engine but often time its quite limiting and we couldnt improve the engine without a leak code, and thats pretty much illegal.
Hey Chet, I doubt you will read this but I just wanted to say that I think this whole situation is extremely sad, I spent so much time on this TF2 mod for this vr game "Contractors" and they recently took that down too and it just kinda leaves me.... Numb. hate to see this happen with my favorite company
When I asked a similar to the topic at hand I was more interested in the "guy who plays cool mods but also makes games" view, so this is pretty much what I like hearing about. Though I never knew at the time how relatively big this would me (I had only just saw the news straight from the developer's community.) With that being said, I'll be rescinding my long winded comments for the time being.
That's great and all but doesn't change the fact that Valve is suffering from IP rot currently, and these kinds of mods are free extensions to the time they get to release their own fresh stuff. If they do this and remain quiet, well that's how the downfalls begin. Been gaming a few too many decades not to see the patterns.
not only is the video game industry one of the most secretive creative industries in the world, Valve is one of the most secretive and selective companies with massive trust issues inherit to its past. It has to be tough being in the thick of it.
I dont understand why they cant just release assets under a no profit license. Valve is built partially on modding and dont feel like they requires the source game assets to keep afloat.
100% Polish. Both sets of grandparents lived in Kraków and emigrated around 1900... lived a mile from each other in poland and move to cleveland and lived a mile from each other...
man honestly more than this im worried about the walkback on AI stuff; the mods stuff specially after some further reading is kind of expected but their decision around AI is kind of disappointing and i wish it wouldnt have been what it ended up being
The thing that has me upset and that I’m wondering about, is that this pattern of behavior has been holding up for tf2 mods specifically. Team Fortress Classic was also hit with a DMCA. They where promised by valve that they would find an alternative to distribute the mod, and then the team was ghosted. They where ghosted enough that the Classic team called them on a bluff that if they didn’t respond back, they would put the mod back up, and they didn’t get a single word. Why is there an effort on valves part to throw their legal weight like this at fans, when they can’t be bothered to throw the legal pressure on the people that sell cheats, and bots on github. From and outsiders perspective, it really feels like they would rather do anything but address the the core issue because maybe the later is too difficult for the multi billion dollar company. Sorry if it feels like I’m coming across as cut-throat, none of this is aimed at you, it’s just, three years of festering vitrol man. From the bot issues, to the take downs, to the radio silence. It really really hurts, especially when people are so willing to give them a pass.
Because most of the time fan projects are made by people who aren't actively trying to hide from the IP owner. Hackers and hacking tool creators are trying to mask their presence and traffic for obvious reasons, a fan making a mod typically isn't.
the tf2 s2 port was horrible, after almost 2 years it was still almost unplayable and the devs abandoned it for aslmost 6 months, dont know why this got people so mad
doesn't really make sense to discuss the DMCA without doing any research whatsoever into the details surrounding it. one was a portal port to the nintendo 64 called portal 64 which "demade" the game by completely replacing all assets with retro-stylized versions, not unlike how fortress forever remade TFC in source. except in this case, portal 64 is on a completely dead console and isn't competing with a sequel. the other game was a source 2 port of team fortress 2 built in s&box. same idea but with valve assets.
Call me mad, but I think people kind of overeacted to this whole thing. I mean, as a TF2 veteran, I understand the frustration that all the problems to the game causes, but if Valve didn't send a DMCA before, there must have been a reason they did now. I think it could have worked out better, but even with open source companies like Valve there's a limit. All my respect to the devs of the TFS2 mod for the effort nevertheless. It's a shame, but I bet things may be better in the future.
What are you on about? What legality? America's laws that benefit the corporations? The rest of the world has signed an internationla agreement that states you can do anything with a copy of your programm.
For me, it was Valves lack of action ever since the Blue Moon Update For Team fortress 2. After that its been essentially the same filler and holiday updates. Even that Summer update was a bit of a let down due to what it did (or didn't rather) push. The games in an awful state to play in it the /mainstream/ method. all i want is for them to actually make it playable. Not a blog post with a hollow wall of text. DMCA, while i understand why it happened, feels like a punch in the face while we try to fix something they seemingly dropped. Valves inaction on one side and action on another is disappointing really.
The code is made from.scratch and lot of the assets are hd versions made by the comunity. But i get it. The only problem that i have is that tf2 is not playable.
What's weird is the decision to shut these down doesn't even make sense commercially. Like, Copyright is there to protect IPs at risk. There was nothing at risk. If they had left it alone, at the least it wouldn't have affected anything. At best, it would've been beneficial! Striking it down only results in bad PR! How do people at these companies not realize this yet??? It's just so weird.
Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on the rumors of the reason the Dmca was issued was because valve is planning on porting tf2 to source 2 themselves?
I doubt that's the case. There was some thinking along these lines back in the day when Valve requested the Black Mesa: Source devs change the title due to confusion with an official product. People were posting saying "Official Half Life Remake coming soon????" and that was 10 years ago lol.
I think what people are mad about is the bigger picture:
TF2 has been left in an awful state for years, when the community did the SAVETF2 stuff (which was because they had radio silence from valve for years about this game they cared very much about, which was being infested with bots and other issues), Valve said they were listening and working on changes, and then radio silence for more years.
Then valve made an announcement allowing for AI games on steam, which had a lot of people worried about the market being flooded with horrible asset flips, which is what happened over when Epic allowed them on their platform.
THEN they DMCA'd a passion project. Yes, legally they have the right. But people have stated working on TF2 is a mess because of code spaghetti and the age of Source. The TF2S2 project is the communities way of being like "hey, lets fix this problem ourselves, for free, for the game we love". And then this is what valve decides to take action on, rather than the bot hosting websites or anything else.
Its the bigger picture timeline that upsets people.
Not to mention valves lack of publishing finished products.
TF2 is Valve's game. Like it's great people love it and all but the assertion fans make over other people's intellectual property these days is ridiculous.
this tbh
@@BoomiestBomb Yeah it's really sad and depressing. I get that people are upset but it shows a lot of immaturity to get this upset over it.
i don't want to talk about this anymore people are clearly upset and confused because a bunch of stuff is happening and i'm getting my notifs blown up
Thank you for the video, Chet. As a member of the team, it was painful to get hit by the DMCA, but we understand it. While the project had a larger scope than just "TF2 in Source 2", using those assets without a license was the problem.
As you stated in the video, copyright exists for a reason, humans have a history of ripping off...
On the good side, I learned a heck ton about game development, met a ton of awesome people, and even got into graphics programming when studying TF's character lighting, which I saw as a potential career path.
It is sad that the project's gone for good. The sensation was kind of like hearing about an old friend die. The weird thing about this situation is that it took them too long to DMCA us. It is not as if the project was under the radar for 3 years. Maybe Valve lawyers work on Valve Time too?
Haha - glad you are taking it well and a great attitude - it is about what you learned and now on to the next thing. Look forward to see what you make!
@@chetfaliszek thank-you chet
reading the comments made me remember the Unity project...maybe you guys could transition over to that?
@@RoastCDuck you act like you were actively developing it. i agree but it's still a lot of hard work and they would have to implement surfing and trimping into unity, but that would be sick. TFU until TF3 arrives
im convinced tf3 will never happen@@Fel1xF7W
Valve is 100% in their legal right to have taken down this fan project. However it would have been nice if they also contacted the team and tried to work something out afterwards, although unfortunately they're not obligated to do so either.
There are many nasty things to do within legal rights. Its not like it was commercialized nor there ever will be officially made n64 port of their game.
@@nicekeyboardalan6972 ???
My issue is that even though, yes, they're within their legal rights -- they've set a precedent in the past that created an environment where people were comfortable with doing what they were creating before. It's the recent inconsistency that really sours people's views on Valve. Most of it is probably from a shift in management, another part of it is the whole tech ecosystem being a lot more protective about IP. Sega, unfortunately, is the last bastion of a company that not only is ok with but also supports fan projects.
Drastic changes like this are really fucking demoralizing and shitty, imo. Really tired of all these tech companies flipping random switches in their proverbial breaker boxes.
It wouldn't be the first time they shut down a project, just to hire the devs
Yeah, legality is not the same as morality, morally I think they should've been lenient and maybe even cooperative.
I don't know the legalities around the DMCA, but this doesn't seem consistent with TF2's traditional "Copyright Lololol" system.
Agreed
true xdddd
They stole asset code and making it multiplayer for free How does that sound good for any company?
@@PoollShietz first of all tf2 is f2p anyway and they took assets probably, not the code (imho), second of all, the op is joking dude xd
@@kirpich158 Its f2p so just mod and create owm dedicated server for friend If pub not stable Just stop hyping everything about Valve product
The TF Source 2 team stated they had already stopped developing before the dmca.
yes we were moving on, but it was pretty weird timing tbh
@@Anthonypython an update to sandbox was about to break the mod.
I think the way Garry said it on his Twitter made a lot of sense. It makes sense why Valve DMCA'd TF2S2, and even if they didn't, the project was about to die anyways due to incoming S&box updates, stated by Garry himself (and the TF2S2 team's announcement). Sadly TF2S2 wasn't just a mod, it was effectively a copy-paste recreation of TF2 in another engine, which is definitely an odd legal area. The project's github itself even said some of the assets in it were owned by Valve and were their IP, which implies that they were using assets that they didn't own.
And as for Portal 64... That wasn't even DMCA'd, apparently they contacted the dev, asking if he could rewrite the game in a public N64 library instead of Nintendo's proprietary library so that they can avoid trouble with Nintendo (which is something I'm sure every company strives for), and he said it couldn't be done and opted to take down the project himself instead.
I feel like there's just something weird going on with Valve though, the walkback on banning AI in games on steam, and now this DMCA on TF2S2 (even if it's fully within their right). I imagine people are mostly concerned because this is not the Valve they recognize, and there's fear that the company is stepping into 2024 much different than it was in the past
To my knowledge, valve has always been very themselves when it comes to lots of major decisions. I think so long as Gabe sits in the king’s chair they won’t stray too far, but that’s not forever
Valve didn't ban AI games for moral reasons, they banned it cause they didn't want to get sued. All they did was figure out the legalese to redirect the legal consequences onto developers, and now AI games are back. Valve has always allowed all sorts of blatant garbage on its store, cause it can only make them more money in the end.
no company is “the company you knew” it’s not a tv show or your favorite band, it’s a business with attrition and turnover. people and times change, and that’s ok.
@Waffle4569 Yeah It seems that’s why they did that, they said you have to have proof that the AI training model is not using copyrighted material which is very complex how they’re gonna achieve it but it seems like they maybe didn’t know how to do it until now. Hoping that’s the case
Good to hear a view from someone that’s experienced in this exact topic
I was born a sampler and I'll die a remixer. The demoscene and such fill me with pure joy. I can't imagine I'll never have anything I create under some sort of permissive or creative commons license. Fortress Forever is fun though. I'm terrible at it however.
i love fortress forever i completely forgot it about for years until you reminded me
yeah honestly i grew up on YTP and early gmod animation
being able to take something and remold it into something completely alien to its original work is rather magical in a way familiar yet different like a dream or recounting something from the past with a different perspective
super cool to see you make content. I always just lurked on twitter but its really nice to get some dev insight :)
I'm personally a bit hooked onto the fact that the takedown notice misspells S&box as "S@box" in both instances it is mentioned. That feels to me like a pretty big detail to misspell in a case like this?
Disney killed creativity because they pushed the duration of copyright protection so hard that it is now past the life of the creator(s) for another extra 70 years.
So even when all the ones involved in the making of an idea/project/product/creation are rotting 6 feet under, the company can still have a say in their place about the copyright for another 70 years. This obviously shows that copyright is so extreme that in many cases it no longer exists for the author but rather for the company.
Even if a creator loses copyright, it doesn't mean that the creator loses the recognition of being the central real creator of its creation and if they do that means that they either abonded the creation or others are far far more better with creating something within their former copyright that the people's vission of what is legit, what is canon, what is more important starts to shift, legitamacy is decided by the people, and the people want something good.
An example is the mickey mouse copyright that is now partly gone, some are now making a horror game about mickey mouse, obviously the people are not gonna think: "OMG mickey looks so creepy is this cannon yo wtf, I didn't know that the mickey was a murderer this lore goed deep yo". No only what disney releases will still be seen as "canon" "real", simply because of legitamacy.
That legitamcy can be earned by just being good, and you have the time for it thanks to copyright to be seen as the source of whatever you created
If some random dude made a video where mickey dies of ebola, that will obviously not be seen as canon.
If tolkien's work with the lord of the rings, the hobbit, etc goes public, there will litteraly be a Tolkien renaissance, A large ammount of people will start to create something within the world of tolkien, fanbooks, videos, movies, games, tolkien songs people can make and sell "whats if's" as it will be legal (just look up on youtube: "lotr what if"), ... .The people will go "crazy" and go "nuts" (wich is what you say is creativty at 9:00). And if somehow tolkien returned and started writing a new book, everyone would obviously sit down and watch carefully, because for what he creates shall be seen as canon/legit/real for the lore of middle earth.
legitamacy is something decided within the people and it is a very micro thing, something that can never be systemised on a macro level, copyright however if it is just shorter, can be a shield for the creator to let them create and earn recognition
Copyright should last between 6 or 10 years in my opinion and crediting should last until the lifetime of the creator
One might think that if copyright is so short, a lot of creators will lose a lot of their income because if you are for example a writer then after 6-10 years the publisher who prints your book no longer have to give you a cut. I would argue then that if one does lose a large amount of income because their copyrigth protection expired after 6-10 years, shouldn't they have kept working and made already new things that they earn from? Isn't it good that the creators know that they need to keep working for their income isn't eternal, so that if someone creates their first book or song or whatever, and its so massively succesfull that they do earn a lot of money for it but only for a fixed amount of time (6-10 years) and that they have to keep working if they want more money. There are many examples of people just releasing a few things that are very succesfull and after that just stop working not just because they earned so much in the beginning but mostly because they keep on earning so much forever. Earning a lot of money because your created something so well made is ofcourse good, but that you keep earning from that for the rest of your life to the point were you can just stop working is too extreme. This whole paragraph ofcourse asumes that the author is the one mostly earning from what they created wich can be true but it can also be the opposite (see paragraph 2).
same can be seen with game assets, yes you worked for it and should earn for it, but only for about 6-10 years, because you obviously have made many other things, plus you most likely will make those assets for a company or a project that will actually be giving you money for your work and if you have left the company, you can still be easilly hired because of what you have already made.
As long as there is a system of credibility, you can easilty shorten copyrigth to 6-10 years
tldr: i just hate disney
Copyright should be reserved for the works that aren't widely known. It doesn't make much sense to implement a global copyright expiration date if the author's works are widely known, the authors are already making a profit out of their works. Do you really care about some Mickey Mouse rip off if we all know that it's a rip off of that work?
love the tldr section
Copyright shouldn't exist at all because IP is not real property
@@alexisleskinen6090 🤨
@@alexisleskinen6090And that right there is what makes me want to keep the things I make hidden. There needs to be some kind of sanctuary for an IP or else certain people can & will screw you, your team and/or the whole project over, costing you the trade, vision you have for it and, possibly, your dependency on it as the IP may or may not be your life calling as well as being your pride & joy in life.
Sidenote: As have many others, I've seen some wholesome things out there be put under the butchers knife and defiled just because a person "can". Humans are destructive but we have the power to control ourselves, we just need to have the will to act on it and set some ground rules so people don't go screwing things up (to some extent, the rules aren't perfect). Nothing wrong keeping some things sacred.
this is some great context and I appreceate the video. I hope valve releases more of an officcial statement soon explaining more of the detailes you could be eluding to.
less valve talk more Old Man Murray
Maybe people wouldn't be that mad about it, if they actually gave a damn about tf2 community. There's literally 0 communication
I hate these people who are going "Valve should be hiring these guys" because it really does show what little they know about Valve, even from the prospective of an outsider and a fan.
Yeah, that's a strange one. Saw a video just harping on that, even at the heyday of mods and valve hiring modders they were super selective.
So I've got a few stories about Valve's legal team (I have nothing bad to say about it) but first, my hot take: The fact that the DMCA takedown notice came *after* the project announced it would cease development leads me to believe that Valve is just trying to not have legal precedent that someone can take their assets and use them unlicensed. The fact that they waited so long seems to me like they were intentionally turning a blind eye for as long as they could.
And now, the stories. I've asked Valve legal questions a few times through Steamworks developer support tickets. Stuff like "can we use these models that are technically based on leaked versions of Half-Life 2 citizens?" (yes, in this specific case), "can we have something like TF2's map stamps for donating to contributors to our mod?" (as long as they are not 'desirable' (that is, they're receipts rather than a product) - although shortly after Valve changed the definition of free source engine mods to allow cosmetic DLC), and so on. Not really much of a story, I guess, but the one time Valve's lawyers did just flat-out say "no" to me so far they gave almost a mathematical proof that what I was asking for wasn't something I should want to do. ("If you make items tradable and they're worthless, you've wasted your time, and if they're not worthless, you've invented a new way for people to get scammed and neither of us have the resources to deal with that for a free mod") (These are paraphrased answers from memory, so Valve's lawyers didn't say any of these sentences exactly to me but the basic idea is right.)
Love the insights. I've been a valve fanboy since 2004 and It's great to get these small snippets of how valve works as a company. Although I feel like they have really changed throughout the years. And the way they operate is starting to look more and more like your traditional AAA company sadly.
@@alec.catastrophicthat would be catastrophic unless gabe owns more than 50% of the shares
@@Jaywalked Then what's gonna happen after tubby kicks the bucket?
@@domeen0gt895Frankly? That's something I fear greatly.
@@alec.catastrophic how about you back it up with a source?
@@alec.catastrophic SOURCE senator..
i'm happy with this answer
I think the problem is that this project was aiming to re-release the entire thing with maybe some stolen code and unchanged assets under the name Team Fortress 2... There is a huge difference between porting a game to another engine and making something like Half-Life: Entropy Zero, Research and Development, etc. which may be reusing some assets but shipping an entirely new experience. This wasn't a new experience nor was aiming to be, in fact, the objective was to release the same game, 1to1. That's where the problem is.
Well put. It surprises me that computer literate people in this day and age can't comprehend that porting stuff between engines isn't the same as actual game development.. and then to create a "studio" and claim it as yours is just blatant stealing.
If it was just this DMCA, I think I'd be more on Valve's side or at least understanding. But I think a lot of community frustration and anger is the bigger picture. Valve's lied (or at least failed to keep promises) to multiple modding teams and to the TF2 community at large.
Two years ago Valve was forced to break their silent code to tweet that they heard the "save TF2" movement and the frustration with the bots. They promised they'd work on it, get something done. Two years later the bot problem is still just as bad. Multiple mod teams have been ghosted by Valve after being told they'd get support or get a deal worked out. Valve refuses to do anything with TF2 beyond putting in more cases so they can keep farming money from it. No updates, very small bugfixes, no answers to the years-long bot crisis, etcetera.
So this DMCA takedown is seen as sort of icing on a shit cake. Valve's neglected TF2 for years and hasn't done anything meaningful to address the bot crisis, yet still happily releases cases to keep the money flowing, and is now taking down fan projects. While understandable, it leaves a bad taste in the mouths of many, and stirs up long standing grudges against Valve's choices these past several years.
Guess we'll have to wait and see what Valve does next
I'd be somewhat alright with them taking down the TFS2 project down due to "Stolen" assets if they made TF2 at least fucking playable and not a landfill to loadout trucks full of dogshit hats and unusual effects every so often. The bots have gotten worse than ever, NOW it's literally unplayable
Come join us play some night - not the same as it was was but why we do play it so often.
You had me check my teams messages wayyy too many times in this video lol
Sorry!
Fortress Forever is on Steam, sadly it never has anyone playing.
So does this mean that if I were to make an animation that uses valve's assets in something else than sfm, (in blender for example), could i get dmca'd/sued too? That does not seem right.
There is always what's legal, what's gonna get you sued, and what's right... I'll leave up to you.
Pretty sad that there is a distinction, but yes, wise words.
Subscribed when you uploaded the why leave valve video, I’ve been a huge valve fan since 2011 or so, I love to hear anything about how valve works/ worked.
I live pretty close to the headquarters and I’ve been wanting to visit it a long time. Anyways, thank you for sharing your input. I share all your videos with my friends. : )
Fortress forever is still on Steam! I followed it when it was new.
I have a question that probably doesn't have a chance of being answered.. but What does Gabe & the team think of Black Mesa as a remake? Have they played it?
No idea if they played it - I did - great work!
@@chetfaliszek pretty sure the HLA dev team is on record stating that they actually used it as the main reference for "half life one" when working on HLA.
Double action: Boogaloo mentioned 🔥🔥🔥
That was very helpful, if that is what is going on that makes a lot of sense.
IP protection should only last as long as it takes for the company to recoup the costs from development of the IP in question (medicine, etc).
Its really cool seeing this perspectice thank you, im just disappointed with the tweet saying they would be working to fix TF2 and have done nothing to show for it.
Don't ever feel forced I mean
They aren't hurt by Valve, Chet, not that I'm aware. Most of the developers of TF2S2 were planning to quit anyways, because S&Box has gotten so screwed up in alpha development that they can't reasonably continue. Kaya, one of the Amper Software developers, said that they had just discussed shutting the project down right before the DMCA arrived. I think they are doing better now that they have moved on.
Yeah one of the devs posted here as well with a similar comment.
Fortress forever is still on steam, not really any players though, would be good for a game night
That or some TFC...
Happy Oldstyle New Year
I think the issue is that this pattern of Valve taking down community projects goes back a bit further than just the current developments. A few years ago, some TF2 mods like Open Fortress and TF2 Classic were asked to be taken down by Valve while they worked out a more legally sound solution to get the projects back up again, but then Valve essentially ghosted the development teams for both projects and nothing ever came of it. So I think there has been some change at Valve with their legal team at least over the past couple years.
The Portal 64 situation I think was Valve trying to keep out of Nintendo's sights, since the project used some N64 libraries, I think? I hope that the project can still be reworked to use more legally safe libraries instead.
As for Team Fortress Source 2, I really think that Valve's legal right to take it down is ultimately undeserved because of the state of TF2. They don't want anyone making a competing version of the game yet they don't want to bother fixing the issues with the official version. They've hired basically 2 (more or less) contractors to put together updates for the game when the fact of the matter is they need to be putting more resources into fixing what is essentially one of their biggest sources of revenue. Of course, with how much Steam makes them in comparison, they probably don't feel the need to care. But if they choose to abandon parts of their audience like they do, I really don't think that they'll be able to keep themselves afloat with much flexibility in what they can do as a developer.
Also when you combine this with Valve's decision to not only release Counter-Strike 2 with far less content than CSGO, but to REPLACE CSGO ENTIRELY in an attempt to force players into their new game, it's a serious tell for Valve having significant internal changes and may be succumbing to practices similar to those seen in the rest of the AAA industry. I don't know if Valve will actually sink as low as the rest, because unlike other AAA companies they're still private and don't have to try and please investors, but only time will tell.
You lose your copyright to a project if you stop updating it? Lol? I guess we better strip copyright from books and CDs - which physically cannot be updated.
Portal 64 can't be reworked to use safer libraries... since those libraries are the SDK of the N64. They are required to interact with the device.
@@nolram I mean there's a pretty big N64 modding and development community, surely someone's been working on making their own clean room library implementation, right?
@@Majorwindy not what I said at all. Don't know how you got that from what I said.
I said Valve really has no business outside their legal ability to take down projects like this when they aren't actively doing anything meaningful with the IP.
@@theopenrift it’s a direct implication from your logic
it’s within their rights given they straight ripped the TF2 assets and code into an unlicensed environment and distributed it. It’s in the DMCA notice and makes total sense. You don’t lose copyright because you dont intensively update your game. Again, people don’t constantly update books or old games -
yet their copyright remains. Nobody would argue that it’s acceptable to violate the copyright of Mass Effect or Ratchet & Clank just because they’re not doing much or anything with the franchises. That’s a unique standard being invented for valve.
I think this type of feedback from a community is heavily influenced by overdramatizing and sensationalism content creators tend to use in their news report to increase the engagement. Anyone who dives into this situation a bit deeper will come to the same conclusion as you do even without knowing anything about how things are done in Valve.
Super interesting thank you for this background!
my problem with Valve in this whole situation is the same one that has been forever-so consistent with Valve, that problem being poor communication. Valve leaves so much up in the air that people often assume things that aren't true and in my opinion, I don't think it's the fault of those people because even if they did try to clear things with Valve, Valve would just ghost them for entirely way too long (this is a recurring thing with them). And... how do you even contact Valve for something like that?
I think it's pretty important to distinguish what is a mod, and what is a game made on a licensed engine. For example, Insurgency: MIC is a mod for Half Life 2, it requires HL2 to function. Insurgency is a game made on the source engine with a license bought from Valve with it's own unique assets that does not rely on Valve IP. TF2S2 was neither a mod, nor a licensed game, it used TF2 IP and assets and was being remade on S&Box S2 engine without a license from Valve, it seems pretty reasonable for Valve to DMCA the project as it is not legally allowed.
Even then, if they had acquired a license, I don't think Valve would have permitted it as TF2 is their IP, so the development team would have had to make their own assets and cast of characters. Even if there is no profit to be made, you are still using intellectual property, and no matter the state of TF2, you cannot use an IP without explicit permission from Valve. This is partly why I think that the other TF2 projects such as TF2C and OF were not looked upon favorably and then ignored, because they used leaked code, and instead of buying the source engine license from Valve and asking them if they're able to create such projects, they were creating these projects without Valve's knowledge that they were using leaked code, it's understandable that Valve lost trust in those projects and did not want them to proceed with leaked code.
It becomes easier this way to understand that Valve does not dislike fan projects, but dislikes it when fan projects clearly overstep the boundaries of what is acceptable.
Half life 3 confirmed
I... hate you.... ;)
oh is bushranger the bone brother
Was that the Borealis?
Why does the video end so abruptly?
Per Tyler Mcvicker, it seems to be because TFS2 was in s&box, and the DMCA's on videos was probably an accident
The teams notification at 8:00 startled me
Chet I think the video was cut off at the end. What did you say beyond the interrupted "but"?
What’s weird to me is them taking these down without communicating to them an alternative they could use to continue the project like valve usually would
Showed up in my recc today... really hope we can get something out of tf2 its insane how much neglect and just silence you get from this game. its not fair,.
Your insight on this is super helpful, and honestly just reinforces my original thought. Garry's Mod includes assets licensed alongside the Source SDK, but for anything else like CS:S, HL:S, TF2, the assets aren't licensed but are imported from your local install. I haven't used TF:S2 personally, but based on the DMCA, I'm guessing the assets in TF:S2 aren't being imported, they're distributed with the gamemode files. So even though TF2's free to play and anyone can get the assets, Amper seemingly was distributing Valve property without licensing it. It sucks that Valve didn't warn them to change it before taking it down, but also lawyers don't care about being good guys to mod teams.
The only way valve could have handled this without a shitstorm would have been to announce TF2 Source 2 at the same time.
I don’t think they’re ever going to port TF2 to Source 2. There’s not really a reason to, since TF2’s art style is timeless and perfectly suited to Source 1. But it would be nice if they made a TF3 on Source 2 someday.
or, they could've left the fan projects alone
@@SnrubSource You realize that defending intellectual property is a requirement to maintain that intellectual property, right? They literally have to stop people from stealing their IP, even if the theft is done for something that is beneficial to the community.
@@SnrubSource they literally couldnt? are you slow?
tf2 needs a remaster. the game is broken and held together with bandages and duct-tape. so tfs2 was supposed to be a spiritual tf3. even if tfs2 is shut down now, it's still difficult to play regular tf2 with the terrible optimization and the broken hud@@Dave01Rhodes
Just talk if you feel comfortable and you want to.
U r awesome btw
@reunionisland7940 "let me be a dick to someone for leaving a harmless comment" -you, probably have parents that hugged you
@@DouglasQuaid999 what is he trying to say?
This isnt particularly new behavior for valve. I remember when Valve threatened to remove the mod "tf2 classic" for using leaked tf2 source code. The team struck a deal with Valve that theyd work with them to get that sorted out but after months of radio silence and with #savetf2 trending they decided to take the risk and release it anyways.
I guess valve didnt want to risk the controversy of taking it back down.
I like the videos, but I gotta tell you, those Teams notifications gave me a mini heart attack.
I’m curious: if Valve has such a great legal team, why don’t they go after the programmers of the cheats?
Can’t stop ‘em, but can sure as heck make cheats/bots tolerable again, right?
Well you try to find em if they have a private way of contacting between programmers and hosting the code.
You can't sue random dude in Russia.
They have 100% original code hosted. It would go against their ToS but it's legal to have this programs unfortunately. If it wasn't, then emulation wouuld be ilegal as well (because you are reverse-engineering something)
They don't have a a great legal team. I would know I'm the plaintiff in a lawsuit against Valve. they have the dum6est fooks ever
Cheat developers have been sued countless times by countless developers and every time it has done next to nothing to solve the cheating problem in that particular game.
The answer is useful if it gets people to think about things a different way so they can come to a better conclusion themselves!!!!!!!!
Honestly I just dropped a like for the comment on the Mariners xD
I just want the TF2 servers to still be up at this point. Honestly I would take a revival of TF2 over Episode 3 even though HL2 is my favorite game. Not that I'm expecting Episode 3, but I'll officially give up after HL2's 20th anniversary.
Glad I'm not a TF2 fan, what a painful existence.
People are mad a 15 year old game doesn’t get updates anymore and are ignoring the fact whilst yes it was a passion project they had used stolen assets and had no license they had accidentally just uploaded their game this isn’t immoral they took down a basically 1:1 copy of the game
Thanks for your insights. It is slightly unsatisfying as you say, the frustration comes from daily battles with bots and lack of new content, and tf2 source 2 could have been a potential avenue for dealing with that. As someone who only started playing post jungle inferno, it would be so cool to be there for an update sized update, even though the chances are extremely low
I think the majority of anger is due to the neglect the TF2 IP has faced for YEARS but Valve is unwilling to continue development of the IP themselves.
Ok.... now its a idea : Why not Chet make a Game Company and Buy Team Fortress 2 from Valve and save it with the help of the comunity?
the Teams noise at 8:00 fooled me
You don't often get these kind of perspectives, especially with Valve. For me a lot of frustration does come from not knowing why. The ambiguity of the industry and Valve like all companies are complicated, ran by various people, all influencing the machine in their own way.
TBH i think its a new legal hire throwing their weight around and it should be stopped pretty quickly
It was just TFS2 though and Portal64 was because of concerns over the use of libultra (Nintendo owned) which was taken down willingly
@@hedwig7sit's still not how Valve uses to be
Imagine if Valve DMCAd the original counter strike instead of hiring the people behind it
If Valve hired the TF2S2A team no one would be upset
@@flamingscar5263 thats.. not how that works. counter strike was using custom made assets, maps, modes, weapons, and voice lines. TF2Source was taking TF2 and hosting it off of valve's ecosystem, and portal64 was using valve's assets, IP, and code combining it with another companies library. there's a massive difference that isnt just "valve isnt letting me do whatever i want with their IP, this is literally 1984"
@@shimapanzer9930 Yep. People are just too emboldened to push the limits.
@@shimapanzer9930 + nintendo rom and you know how they get with emulation
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought some notorious IP laws, where if you don't defend your IP when you are aware of what people are using it for (like this in an unlicensed manner), then you will have a much harder time defending it later.
It would be really nice to see S&box have access to this stuff though. Maybe they can come to some agreement with a asset pack DLC for Valve (& others!).
could you make a video about how source engine licensing work? cause i really really want to used this engine but often time its quite limiting and we couldnt improve the engine without a leak code, and thats pretty much illegal.
I have no idea...
Is it just me or does Chet Faliszek look like he's Tyler McVicker's long lost cousin.
Hey Chet, I doubt you will read this but I just wanted to say that I think this whole situation is extremely sad, I spent so much time on this TF2 mod for this vr game "Contractors" and they recently took that down too and it just kinda leaves me.... Numb. hate to see this happen with my favorite company
waaaaaaait, they took down gunman contractor? WTF
props for being pro union, EFF and user created content
When I asked a similar to the topic at hand I was more interested in the "guy who plays cool mods but also makes games" view, so this is pretty much what I like hearing about. Though I never knew at the time how relatively big this would me (I had only just saw the news straight from the developer's community.) With that being said, I'll be rescinding my long winded comments for the time being.
That's great and all but doesn't change the fact that Valve is suffering from IP rot currently, and these kinds of mods are free extensions to the time they get to release their own fresh stuff. If they do this and remain quiet, well that's how the downfalls begin. Been gaming a few too many decades not to see the patterns.
HEYY!!! LETS GO CLEVELAND!
Nervous... we are the favorites!?!?!
They've lived long enough, now they're becoming the villain. Hm.
Let's goooooo guardians!!
I really do love baseball!
@chetfaliszek hopeful of the guardians this year?
sorry but, what the heck was fstop all about and is SUPERLIMINAL close in gameplay ?
portal64 was cool
Have you watched the moon channel video on the dolphin emulator? Highly recommended insight from an actual lawyer
Im still weirded out by valve not responding to the previous dmca takedown threats towards Open Fortress and Team Fortress 2 Classic
not only is the video game industry one of the most secretive creative industries in the world, Valve is one of the most secretive and selective companies with massive trust issues inherit to its past. It has to be tough being in the thick of it.
No TF2S2 mod? Ok, are they going to make an official one?
Creativity? This is about fixing the code and the engine.
I dont understand why they cant just release assets under a no profit license. Valve is built partially on modding and dont feel like they requires the source game assets to keep afloat.
Chet are you Polish or Hungarian
100% Polish. Both sets of grandparents lived in Kraków and emigrated around 1900... lived a mile from each other in poland and move to cleveland and lived a mile from each other...
Teams notification jumpscare
Grandpa McVicker?
man honestly more than this im worried about the walkback on AI stuff; the mods stuff specially after some further reading is kind of expected but their decision around AI is kind of disappointing and i wish it wouldnt have been what it ended up being
The thing that has me upset and that I’m wondering about, is that this pattern of behavior has been holding up for tf2 mods specifically. Team Fortress Classic was also hit with a DMCA. They where promised by valve that they would find an alternative to distribute the mod, and then the team was ghosted. They where ghosted enough that the Classic team called them on a bluff that if they didn’t respond back, they would put the mod back up, and they didn’t get a single word. Why is there an effort on valves part to throw their legal weight like this at fans, when they can’t be bothered to throw the legal pressure on the people that sell cheats, and bots on github. From and outsiders perspective, it really feels like they would rather do anything but address the the core issue because maybe the later is too difficult for the multi billion dollar company. Sorry if it feels like I’m coming across as cut-throat, none of this is aimed at you, it’s just, three years of festering vitrol man. From the bot issues, to the take downs, to the radio silence. It really really hurts, especially when people are so willing to give them a pass.
Because most of the time fan projects are made by people who aren't actively trying to hide from the IP owner. Hackers and hacking tool creators are trying to mask their presence and traffic for obvious reasons, a fan making a mod typically isn't.
the tf2 s2 port was horrible, after almost 2 years it was still almost unplayable and the devs abandoned it for aslmost 6 months, dont know why this got people so mad
They think a port would stop the bots; somehow...
Toxic legality has ruined creative fun. Abolish copyright.
valve is turning into another soulless corporation. like suicide silence said, it's the "green monster"
doesn't really make sense to discuss the DMCA without doing any research whatsoever into the details surrounding it. one was a portal port to the nintendo 64 called portal 64 which "demade" the game by completely replacing all assets with retro-stylized versions, not unlike how fortress forever remade TFC in source. except in this case, portal 64 is on a completely dead console and isn't competing with a sequel. the other game was a source 2 port of team fortress 2 built in s&box. same idea but with valve assets.
Call me mad, but I think people kind of overeacted to this whole thing.
I mean, as a TF2 veteran, I understand the frustration that all the problems to the game causes, but if Valve didn't send a DMCA before, there must have been a reason they did now.
I think it could have worked out better, but even with open source companies like Valve there's a limit.
All my respect to the devs of the TFS2 mod for the effort nevertheless.
It's a shame, but I bet things may be better in the future.
they hsould just leave it alone
Valve is obviously planning tf3
damn, valve was the only company left that encouraged and rewarded modders, now the best we have are companies like bethesda that prey on them
What are you on about? What legality? America's laws that benefit the corporations? The rest of the world has signed an internationla agreement that states you can do anything with a copy of your programm.
For me, it was Valves lack of action ever since the Blue Moon Update For Team fortress 2. After that its been essentially the same filler and holiday updates. Even that Summer update was a bit of a let down due to what it did (or didn't rather) push.
The games in an awful state to play in it the /mainstream/ method.
all i want is for them to actually make it playable. Not a blog post with a hollow wall of text.
DMCA, while i understand why it happened, feels like a punch in the face while we try to fix something they seemingly dropped.
Valves inaction on one side and action on another is disappointing really.
The code is made from.scratch and lot of the assets are hd versions made by the comunity. But i get it.
The only problem that i have is that tf2 is not playable.
What's weird is the decision to shut these down doesn't even make sense commercially.
Like, Copyright is there to protect IPs at risk. There was nothing at risk. If they had left it alone, at the least it wouldn't have affected anything. At best, it would've been beneficial! Striking it down only results in bad PR! How do people at these companies not realize this yet??? It's just so weird.
Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on the rumors of the reason the Dmca was issued was because valve is planning on porting tf2 to source 2 themselves?
Pure speculation
I doubt that's the case. There was some thinking along these lines back in the day when Valve requested the Black Mesa: Source devs change the title due to confusion with an official product. People were posting saying "Official Half Life Remake coming soon????" and that was 10 years ago lol.
Remember when you said : It will be quality!
What do you mean