What's ACTUALLY Wrong with the Dragon Maid Dub?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 27 лип 2024
- The English Dub for Miss Kobayashi’s Dragon Maid has become infamous within the anime community for various rewritten lines. While we do think it’s unfair that it and similarly controversial dubs are being used to generalize English anime dubbing as a medium, we do think it’s fair to critique what this dub is on the whole. We discuss the topic punching up dialogue in dubs like Dragon Maid’s, and also look to highlight the positives as well as the negatives for this dub.
If you like what you saw or heard, please consider supporting us on Patreon: / thecartooncipher
Or follow The Cartoon Cipher on Twitter: / cartooncipher
Written & narrated by Eric ( / mrajcosplay )
Edited by MrNiesGuy ( / mrniesguy )
Co-written & co-edited by Abhi ( / rbkapoor1 )
Further thanks to @SarahKTranslate for answering some questions we had.
Cartoon Cipher visual assets by @jermacattack
End-screen/Thumbnail visuals by @MrNiesGuy
0:00 - Introduction
0:38 - A Dub’s Legacy
3:11 - Patriarchal Societal Demands
4:57 - "Not Into Women or Dragons"
10:39 - Punching Up Dialogue
14:00 - Punching Up in Dragon Maid
15:11 - Character Personalities
19:54 - Who Changes Lines in Dubs?
21:20 - Dragon Maid’s Skits
22:49 - The Positives
25:42 - Conclusion
28:46 - Endcard
SOURCES + FURTHER READING:
Our video on Simuldubs: • The Impact of Anime Si...
Jamie Marchi’s Twitter: / marchimark
Punching up dialogue: screenplay.lifetips.com/tip/1...
Jamie’s ANN page: www.animenewsnetwork.com/ency...
Prison School episode 11 commentary
The Ancient Magus Bride episode 8 commentary
uhhh idk watch the show dubbed and subbed if you want all the info
ADDITIONAL FOOTAGE:
Hot Fuzz
Cowboy Bebop
Black Lagoon
FLCL
Yu Yu Hakusho
One Piece
Tokyo Mew Mew
Yu-Gi-Oh!
Pokemon
Citrus
Death Parade
Bloom Into You
Aggretsuko
Dragon Ball Z
Dragon Ball Z Kai
Ultimate Muscle
Beastars
D-Frag
Scum’s Wish
Asagao to Kase-san
Yurikuma Arashi
Baccano!
Gekkan Shoujo Nozaki-kun
JoJo’s Bizarre Adventure Part 4: Diamon is Unbreakable
The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya
Space Dandy
Kaguya-sama: Love is War
Hazbin Hotel
Gurren Lagann
The World God Only Knows
High School DxD
To Love-Ru
The Great Pretender
DECA-DENCE
Danganronpa 3
Free! Eternal Summer
Kakushigoto
Revolutionary Girl Utena
How Heavy Are The Dumbbells You Lift?
Yu-Gi-Oh! GX
Bofuri
Steve Buscemi with a backwards cap and skateboard idk
How To Train Your Dragon
Hajimete no Gal
How NOT to Summon A Demon Lord
Code Geass
Higurashi no Naku Koro Ni GOU
Maken-Ki!
B Gata H Kei
Panty & Stocking with Garterbelt
Haganai
The Devil is a Part-Timer
Sore ga Seiyuu!
Prison School
Fairy Tail
Hinamatsuri
ALL OUT!
Fire Force
Spice & Wolf
ID: Invaded
#funimation #dragonmaid #jamiemarchi - Фільми й анімація
This Pinned Comment will be updated to share any necessary corrections or further developments to things mentioned in the video. First up, commenter DREQ said in the live chat that Jamie stated at a Daisho Con 2018 panel that she did not write the "pesky patriarchal societal demands" line. We'll have to wait for further specification, a video clip or someone else who was there to provide further details.
Also gotten a lot of comments pointing out that Kobayashi’s “women or dragons” line in episode 1 doesn’t change the overall structure of the story, involving Kobayashi growing closer to Tohru. That is a valid interpretation that we neglected to write in the video, just keep in mind that others may feel differently. IIRC one bi commenter pointed out that people who come out later might not initially know what they're sexuality is. Like we said at 7:21, LGBT+ people will obviously have varying opinions on this so please keep that in mind.
Another interpretation we missed is that Kobayashi said "but I'm a woman" due to her androgynous appearance. This may be more apparent in the JP version because she's called "Kobayashi-san" rather than "Miss Kobayashi" (the official English title of the show too), and the -san honorific is gender neutral.
I appreciate this addendum! As someone who had a same sex crush exactly once after lots of denial and was turned down with that very "not into women" line, it definitely hit different than the "but I'm a woman though?", but I could see how narratively it could make Kobayashi's development towards their budding romance seem more intense.
Personally I loved the dub version of Dragon Maid. Its my favorite anime of all time so I am certainly biased. The Sub version is alot of fun too and yes it does lose some nuance and meaning in the english dub but I don't really care as the anime always manages to put a smile on my face just like the original creators other series called "I can't understand whay my husband is saying" about a woman married to a goofy otaku and their misadventures. Very short and sweet.
Eh. Personally, I feel annoyed when the du tries to overcorrerct the Lgbt thing, but adds in the "special cousin" line because it sounds meanspirited on Kobayashi's part, and seems intoleratant on the part of the scriptors.
Edit: For me as a bi person, I thonk its sorta creepy with the dub change, Like it makes it seem like Tohru is coercing Kobayashi to become gay with her aggressive affection. While the Japanese is bad, but it gives more leeway for Kobayashi to reveal her sexuality. In general, the way that they punched up the du makes the characters more agressive and mean spirited.
@@eattheasslikeitsgrass5113 while I can't speak for the LGBT community, I feel the line when Koboyashi was drunk about fondling helps and I kinda read Tohrus advances as just hopeful considering she never outright forces herself on her tho even in sub she did plan on slipping a love potion so not too far off base for Tohru to be a bit creppy
@@metageek7878 Yeahh. I see what your saying. But the biggest issue for me is the hypocrisy present in the dub. It inserts a lot progressive stuff, but still seems to be regressive with its ideas about mental disabilites (especially since the sub wasnt like that).
My rule to avoid having bad dialogue in films is to avoid expiration dates. So avoid memes and well known niches.
That was the direction given to the dubbing staff for Love Live!'s English dub.... according to Caitlin Glass that resulted in Maki saying "awesomesauce". So I don't think I can agree, even though I understand where you're coming from.
@@tylerd8289 It was Honoka who said that, not Maki.
And to be honest, I was fine with it.
@@tylerd8289 awesomesauce feels kinda harmless especially when there was a gamergater line in one dub..
Mhmm
@@bosinclaire7670 aech, that was prison school
I need to take a moment to accept the fact that the line “I’m gonna make you eat those feelings like a teen during the T I D E P O D C H A L L E N G E!!” exists. And I hate and love it
This better be a r/brandnewsentence
It’s so cringe but so good
I simultaneously wheezed and cringed so hard it felt like my body took a screenshot
This is why High School DxD dub is ok to watch. Some lines are so stupidly dumb
@@thewingeddeer9946 lmfao, great comment
the How To Train Your Dragon line is so charming honestly
That bit is one of my favorites in both the sub, dub and manga. It's one of those perfectly sweet little character moments that make me happy.
I mean, i wouldn’t have minded if that was the actual line in the sub... but it’s one of the few things in the dub I can let slide without bias to the reference
Yeah, as long as they stay away from the political stuff I'm good. I'm so sick of hearing SJW propaganda.
Dude that one's amazing ngl
@@jayman6608 Imagine getting this triggered about a single throw-away line in a cartoon
I feel like this is more of a writing problem then a dubbing problem.
The only reason it was rewritten was because of the dub
The only dubbing problems are the ones with voice direction and delivery. The translation/localization was just about a year too late.
@Ruben Colon Dubbing has no issues other than bad delivery of lines in some cases. The localization teams being given full reign to just change whatever they want is the bigger issue. The job of a dubbing studio is to have the character deliver lines in English instead of Japanese. THAT'S IT.
It honestly makes me miss the days of fan subs where there were translator notes explaining puns that make sense in Japanese, but not in English. Even if they got meme'd to crap with "Keikaku means plan".
@@charliekahn4205
the changing of lines to insert hamfisted politics is bad. changing the entire context of scenes for similar reasons is also just bad.
@Ruben Colon Jamie Marci's twitter track record
Kobayashi saying she's not into women is like that Digimon Fusion scene where Angie tells Jeremy he can't read Japanese.
It's in the original manga. Kobayashi is straight.
Akari**
@@blueberrypitbull87 yeah I know,but I don't think that line was in the Japanese version.
@@TitanAnteus actually Kobayashi in the manga later on , shows she does have a crush on Tohru
@@princesswadda No. This is objectively incorrect. Kobayashi feels no sexual attraction to Tohru. In fact, the author only shows Kobayashi feeling lust towards Tohru in the two chapters he genderbends her. Tohru is the one attracted to Kobayashi unilaterally. It's not both ways.
Kobayashi however appreciates Tohru, and likes her as a person.
In the early chapters she even talks to Takiya about her tastes in ero-Doujin bringing up guys.
I spoke to Jamie a few times and she said she can't even remember which lines she wrote and that a man was lead writer on things like dragon maid. Wether that's true or not, it's strange that everytime she's given some sort of writing credit, the lines end up being changed like that
might be referring to John Burgmeier. up until a few years ago, he was credited as the lead writer for every funimation dub for at least a decade. Given the amount of work they put out, im guessing that was more of a supervisor role
It might just be the type of thing where when you focus on one person it seems like they're everywhere while ignoring all the people you aren't familiar with who are also doing the same thing.
Bull I looked up on ANN and she was the script writing
Given she uses claims of sexism for every tiny bit of criticism of her work, I 100% don't believe any claims that she didn't write it. Especially considering she went on fuckin Twitter bragging about changing lines in dubs
She went on a spill about it when people caught it. This sounds more like her trying to save face or something. The ego of many of these VAs are concerning to say the least.
"At the end of the day, Kobayashi lives in a society..." -The Cartoon Cipher, 2020
Kobayashi directly saying she’s not attracted to Tohru at the beginning makes all of Tohru’s advances seem like sexual harassment.
Well that’s a problem with the sub and the dub. Because in neither does she reciprocate her feelings for her until the end of the show. Whether she’s gay or straight, if she’s not attracted to her then it’s all the same.
Going after someone after they made it clear you are just friends is sexual harassment. I see this in a lot of anime where people either don't want to be around a person or they only see the person as friends. It's a problem that people think that behavior is ok, maybe in time things change but crossing the line with the hope that the person doesn't get pissed is fucked up.
Definitely not arguing the definition of sexual harassment here. But in defense of Thoru, at what point after their first encounter does Thoru ever seriously hit on Kobayashi again?
To me, only two instances come to mind: 1. Thoru licking and smelling Kobayashi’s clothes. 2. The infamous valentine’s chocolate gift.
The first one technically isn’t aimed directly at Kobayashi, and consequently misunderstood by Thoru but of course still heavily reprimanded by Kobayashi. With the latter, the show actually makes this it’s focal point for the episode, just how wrong Thoru’s behavior is in this case.
She's not exactly an item with Tohru until Season One's implication.
I mean to be fair she does get drunk and forcefully strip tohru on multiple occasions, so they both kind of share some blame
I think I prefer the manga line "that's not good either" because it insinuates that the character is personally uncomfortable with sexual advances rather than her being uncomfortable with same sex couples or insinuating that same sex couples are bad.
I can definitely get behind that. That or something to the effect of"Not what I meant!" Where she acknowledges it, but doesn’t give a response leaning either way.
Its Japan, no its not normal, and yes its weird. The same is true in every other country around the world its just that 10% of those countries have a taboo against acknowledging this.
The fact of the matter is that these relationships make no sense within human nature and quite literally can mess with people's bodily functions. Ex: Digestive issues develop over time resulting from damage to your backside, not fun.
As for the shoujo side of things one cannot actually "connect" so to speak, at least I suppose you aren't creating life-long damage as in the former case.
@raku chan The thing there is Japan and Sailor Moon/other kid's anime didn't solve the world's, even Japan's same-sex issues. ("Popularizing" a sexuality doesn't sound right, either, unless we're talking about people pretending they like whatever sexes they like.) Plus while Japan can feature them a lot in anime, if you look outside of anime, homosexuality is still seen as a "phase", something people will grow out of, by most and straight Japanese people.
We can prefer what we want (not making fun of R D or anyone here!) and not everything's gonna be perfect, but even if the line is seen as offensive, we're talking media from a different country here. The /ideal/ is to dub (*not necessarily translate word for word*) as accurately to the original as possible, not stick your own beliefs and ideals into it. But if we wanna talk about s o c i e t y , to name one thing anyway this dub does a nice example of people with influence money and trying to influence others.
Don't be an ass (not calling anyone that) but think for yourselves, peeps.
The English manga line and the dub line are both different from the original 私は女なんだが...
The winner: subs!
@@Themysterymove while they are different, subs aren't the clear winner-while yes, the manga line IS different, so is the anime dub line, but what if someone cannot read or speak Japanese? yes, with a sub, there are subtitles, but with a manga, there isn't... so if i cannot read Japanese, and i want a manga version of something to take with me on a car ride, or to read at night with, by your logic, i should just shut the fuck up and learn Japanese?
The one exception is the ghost stories dub. That shows dub is hilarious.
Yeah, but that was by ADV. ADV constantly improved their dubs over the years. They were much better than Funimation at the time, whereas Funimation has barely changed since then. If ADV hadn't gone bankrupt during the recession, the dubbing landscape today would be vastly different.
I'm currently watching the ghost stories dub with friends, and even my friend who doesn't like anime enjoys it.
I've always wanted another Ghost Stories style in a dub
Honestly I'd say the Highschool DxD dub is pretty good.
Ghost Stories Had The CREATOR'S PREMISSION To Be Like That. Dragon Maid Didn't
I like quite a few of the Funimation dubs, but holy hell their comedy dubs are insanely hit or miss. The hits are 10/10's, the misses are absolute disasters.
Agreed. Their dub of D-Frag is legitimately one of the greatest dubs I've ever heard, and they've had plenty of other great comedy dubs too... but they do have some stinkers too. I'd say there's more good than bad though.
That’s something I actually appreciate with Funimation’s dubs and their comedy; they try their best to make sure that it’s funny in an English context for English speaking audiences will enjoy. Sure, not all of them are going to hit, but it makes you appreciate the amount of effort that went into the script while also factoring lip syncing. It’s like writing a sitcom and playing 12-dimensional chess at the same time.
@@MetalSonicReject Yeah, I definitely understand why they do it, they just go to far sometimes and end up really messing with the show in a way that does damage to the story.
At least they hire decent voice casts.
Thank god this doesn’t happen in the Latino dub. I feel like America tries to make it fit their cultural standards, which makes no sense to me because if I’m watching a Japanese cartoon I spect Japanese culture, and more political. Like in 9:05. What the hell was that? it comes out of nowhere. In the sub she tells Tohru to let her feel her breast and Tohru simply answers yes much to Kobayashis surprise. No one is questioning her request so where does all that “society pressure me” came from? To this day I wonder how much the ova would have changed if it had an English dub.
However, that's not the case for anime that has a Western setting or any Western-inspired genre. You can never expect Japanese culture to such shows like Black Lagoon, Baccano, etc.
@@TheSHIELDCap Doesn’t Black Lagoon take place in Southeast Asia waters?
Funimation has been trying so hard to americanize the anime they dub. The line changes is what i think their attempt to americanize the anime
@@restautama
It's no 'Americanization' when the anime is set in a Western setting or any Western-inspired genre.
There's Panty and Stocking, Black Butler, Baccano, Maria the Virgin Witch, Hetalia, Izetta: The Last Witch, Arte (my personal favorite this year) just to name a few.
@@restautama 'americanize' Thats possibly the stupidest fucking thing i have ever read in my life.
"It's been almost four years"...
.....................
Dude... so much has happened these four years (like the KyoAni fire) I can't believe it's been that long.
"But I'm a woman too" sounds less like a rejection and more like someone who never even through of another woman as a possible option due to social norms or in Kobayashi's case, just a dismissal of sexual feelings in general. To someone who is bisexual and has been rejected by straight women the way the dub puts it is so blunt and harsh and coupled with the fact that as you said the dragons aren't really up on normal human stigma's which means the like makes more sense for Kobayashi to say. At the end of the day we will never not be a minority as LGBTQ+ and stories that are written about us need to sometimes point this out as it's a fact of life. The women I hit on will not always be into women and will sometimes grow up around mostly straight communities so they will see my attraction as odd or different having had no experience with it themselves. Turning away from lines that are uncomfortable is babying at best and dis-ingenuous at worst. It's reality, straight people are never treated with kid gloves and have all the common even uncomfortable lines kept in. Plus there is something far cuter about a woman who didn't even know or see women as a possibility throwing away what society deems acceptable and falling in love with a woman vs 'I guess girls are cool too'.
I think in general if we are going to consume media that is not our own western dub companies have no right to be messing with the scripts to extremes. It's pretty disrespectful. As a writer myself I would be so upset if someone too my work and just wrote what ever funny joke they wanted rather than taking the time to correctly dub for the character. I just wouldn't want them to touch my work anymore if they are going to show misinformation or differently written characters to millions...
I feel this is a reasonable comment.
Well said
Yo chill
You wrote a whole paragraph for what? 😂
@@Vernaxuu so we getting offended over people writing paragraphs now?......
The "patriarchy" and "not into dragons" parts of Dragon Maid are perfect examples of what is wrong with Funimation's dubbing. They're changing not only how something is said, but also WHAT is said, effectively inventing completely different characters. Funimation employs writers on top of their translators who aggressively change scripts typically to make the story their own, a process that MANY anime fans want nothing to do with. No anime should reference "patriarchy" "sjws" "gamer gate" "sarah palin" "social distancing" or any other buzz word that wasn't explicitly used in the original Japanese. The idea that dialogue needs to be made more spicy is a horrible misconception that is perpetually preserved through ignorance. The most these "writers" need to do is ever so slightly rearrange words to fit lip flaps. I don't want Marchi, or whoever actually wrote that line, looking at my anime and going, "huh, this sounds like my interpretation of patriarchy. Close enough." I only say this because so many BETTER studios do it right, at least on average. Thankfully the dubs ran through aniplex and bang zoom in California are usually spot on. Gurren Lagann and other Bandai Dubs were fantastic. Kill la Kill was essentially perfect. I can listen to both the japanese and english and feel like I'm actually watching the same show.
Ghost Stories did it and it's regarded as legendary. Probably because it was a bit edgier about it instead of just using token buzzwords.
@@charliekahn4205 Ghost Stories is a complete exception. It's basically a commercially licensed abridged.
Ghost Stories was an abject failure in Japan, and the dubbers were given the go ahead to do whatever the heck they wanted to with its script, so they turned an otherwise crap show into something funny
@@FF-tp7qs Exactly, while Ghost Stories is great, it is doubtful any anime will need such a ‘translation’ like that again considering its circumstance.
I don’t mind politics in dubs. As long as the dub is good I’m fine. Though I don’t like simuldubs. Dragon Maid could’ve been worded better, but it’s not a dealbreaker for me at all. I prefer when dubs aren’t dry. I don’t like shot for shot adaptations either. Though for a show like this I watched both the sub and dub. The sub when it came out because I didn’t want to wait and the dub later on.
my prediction prior to the premiere: my "Sub vs Funimation Dub" pic will be shown and I may get questions after that. Now that I finished watching the full video (and it's a great one!), I can give additional context on that picture:
Hi, I'm AL2009man, and I'm responsible for creating "Dragon Maid Subs vs Funimation Dub" image, and I got proof: knowyourmeme.com/photos/1271377-miss-kobayashis-dragon-maid (and I know that amatuer photoshopping style anywhere)
So, I made that image just so I can upload it to KnowYourMeme. To make sure the lines are accurate; I took the transcript from r/anime subreddit op and from the actual English dub.
Ever since I release that image to KYM, I read a post from another reddit user who has translation experience:
www.reddit.com/r/anime/comments/6l6d5n/dub_writers_using_characters_as_ideological/djrnyab/?context=3
knowing the information at hand, I regretted not putting "Crunchyroll Subtitles". (since then, I'm starting to see more people using my... mostly inaccurate picture, I went back to my original KYM post and changed the title to be more accurate due to that.) (this picture is the bane of my existence)
Fast Forward to months later, I discovered your channel via "Why do Anime Dubs Change the Original Script?" and I'm become an "Average Cartoon Cipher Enjoyer".
From that point forward, every time I spot that same picture, I will redirect them to a specific segment from the video that covered Dragon Maid.
This time however, I'll redirect them to this video. :P
Learning and growing? King shit
Is this....CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT
1:01 How dare you! The drying pan bit is comedy gold!
So question: would "Even though I'm a woman?" be a better substitution for "But I'm a woman?" It has the same tone, but I'd like to think it doesn't have the same indefinite rejection the dub actually gave.
Well the original Japanese translates to,"but I'm a woman though". The line "Even though I'm a woman" is not what the original Japanese was, and would be said differently.
@@LilJbm1 yes, but the point is to find an acceptable English line that can both match the lip flaps (minor) and have the same meaning even if it's not word for word. Having "even though" instead of "but" can still be a rejection without the implication that she thinks it's wrong, just unusual.
Don't care, keep your deviancy and disorders away from the scripts of anime and more importantly outside of Japan, one of the last well ordered societies that exist.
@@darken2417
???
I don’t even know wtf this comment is meant to imply...
@@darken2417 sir youre in the comment section of a video about a lesbian dragons anime
What episode did Issei say “I’m going to make you eat those feelings like a teen doing a tidepod challenge” I don’t remember that at all and I watched dub and sub
I think that's in the new season
Holy fuck this is what im talking about, THEY CHANGED THE JOKE TO MUCH
@@notimeforcreativenamesjust3034what did he say in sub?
21:07 "Come at me bro"
I know a lot of people hated that line, but I always thought it was a positive change.I felt he was still in character enough while breaking out of being an anime cliche. The only other rememberable thing about him is the constant "my sparkles!"
Tbh, i do like dub voices of the cast, they really fit the characters
I agree
I really like Tooru's VA in the dub
I like their voices too but I really hate how some of the VA's behave in real life. Especially Lucoa's.....
@@Reckno64 what did lucoa's VA do?
@@lxtzone5217 Jamie Marchi is a complete ass to fans and responds to criticism by blowing it off or blaming men. Just look at her Twitter....
"you need to go beyond the dragon titties."
An odd note to end on, but a note nonetheless.
I'd say you made a lot of really good arguments here and you've definitely left me with a couple things to think about. I love dubs and watching shows in my native language and I know dubs can reach the level of quality that the other classics can (like bebop, black lagoon and my own personal favorite The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya. Fantastic dub). Thanks for this helpful insight!
Add that quote to the legendary category. It'll be remembered through history
This reminds me of a really funny meme with Mason from black ops 1
Yesss! I love the dub of Haruhi Suzumiya (and the series itself). I really like dubs too. I will continue to watch them, no matter how many people crap on them and/or the people who like them. I’ve seen that happen a number of times, unfortunately. I like watching subs too, but I prefer dubs for a first-watch basis (with some exceptions). Whichever one I think is better depends on the series, but most of the time I like both about equally.
Hahahaha, I had no idea about that operah line in the world God only knows.
Who were the voice actors doing those lines? One sounds vaguely like Scott freeman. But we both know how that ended. 😬 though I don’t know what year that aired.
@@TheSlipperyNUwUdle Unlike most of the other dubs, TWGOK was a Sentai dub. The actor in that scene is Chris Patton.
For me one of the most annoying changes was how Kanna says anything.
In Japanese most of her lines are directed to be more direct and deadpan, while the dub made her more into an annoying Chibiusa type of kid.
I feel like Kanna’s voice changes a few episodes in despite having the same voice actress. I haven’t watched it in a while so I don’t know how to explain it.
@@Bunny-ks1md yeah, in the start she has more of a stereotypical loli voice, but later on it’s less like that
Tried to write the comment without sounding weird, lmao
@@youraveragecontentcreator5720 from what I remember, after a few episodes in she sounds like she’s always half asleep
@@Bunny-ks1md she’s more of a kuudere
I remember one of the episodes where Kanna was gonna make out with Saikawa, but they changed the line from the end of that story segment from "I wanted to..." to "Dragon Style". 🤔
probably everyone already knows this but at 11:30 the TTGL dub sounding that badly acted was intentional and correct. The point of that scene is that Kittan is walking everyone into a really obvious trap and the girls there are acting to try to get them to fall for it. In the japanese dub they also sound that monotone/corny. Felt the need to mention this since the TTGL English dub is one of the best ones out there for me.
I’ll be interested to see what the commentary is like when we get to the Yu Hakusho dub, I’ve always loved that dub despite the multitude of its changes from the original just because how much more personality it has in comparison to the original. I think the liberties taken are pretty obvious.
That's cuz that dub is fun but I think yusuke and kuwabara's voices sell it.
@@phonebackup2083 Yusuke definitely sells it not just with the voice but with script changes, I really think the writer’s understood Yusuke’s character arc and had a consistent vision on how they wanted his persona. I think Kuwabara was the hardest of the main cast to get used to bc of how much they leaned into the dopiness but I also think Sabat acted his heart out for him too, and it grows on u. There’s a lot of “weird” and “risky” choices the dub makes but I definitely think the end product accentuates the best aspects of the original work and makes a more memorable show.
First off, awesome video dude, you bring up a lot of nuance points that aren't discussed nearly enough in the back and forth.
It sound like to me he correcting japenease shows
The thing that stuck out to me the most out of this controversy was not the rewritten lines themselves (as bad as they were), but the utter contempt and hatred that a lot of these writers and actors showed towards their audience when they had the audacity to disagree with them
Wouldn't you if you got shitcanned by people online for something you didn't have full influence over? People tend to attack who they can see or put a name to, even if it's a project with lots of moving parts and no single person can be pinpointed as responsible. It's like when some upset customer blames the chashier at a store for the pricing of a particular item, the cashier didn't create the product or the price for it, but their name and face are the ones out there more openly to the public so they become the target.
@@caldw615 Doesn't matter. They insulted their fanbase, they deserve the backlash. Maybe it was out of their control, but they have the responsibility to act mature in these situations. Obviously, that wasn't their first choice. Look, I love certain dub actors and actresses since I play a lot of JRPGs, but with the climate of anime in the west and how dubbing companies are getting woke? I'm way harsher on how it's handled these days. I'll stick with fansubs on streaming sites until something changes and support the industry by buying merchandise, but I'm not holding my breath.
@@mathewgagnier9432 They didn't insult their fanbase they insulted the people who actively didn't like them and blamed them for shit they didn't have 100% control over. Getting annoyed at people acting like Karen's over a show isn't exactly beyond understandable.
@@caldw615 Yes, they did insult their fanbase. They do not have the high ground in this. If you are unaware of how woke these dubbing companies are getting, I'm sorry. Funimation for one and even Crunchyroll, which is being bought out by Woke Sony. Give it ten or twenty years and they'll be a thing of the past. I'm just waiting.
@@mathewgagnier9432 I'm not agreeing with the changes being made to the dialogue, I disagree that just those who's names are more openly out there are deserving the blame for it though. Dubbing is a processes done in multiple stages with multiple hands involved and having worked in many industries (mainly IT) where we are the front facing ones that customers actually talk to we are constantly getting shit for stuff the higher ups decided just because we happened to be the immediate point of contact. That stuff is bullshit.
for me personally, I dislike changes in translation. I feel like it changes the meaning and the author's original intent. For example, if you were in a business meeting with people who didn't share a language then you would need a translator, but if that translator changed things and added in their own references then it would make me unhappy and the meeting more difficult.
But this is my personal opinion and I can agree on some changes and small nods to things that can be nice in media but I feel like many of them won't stand the test of time or just not be good from the start.
Translation often NEEDS addition to preserve intent, though. Say you were speaking to a Japanese person in a business meeting, and you adressed them by their last name, and the translator didn't add any honorific whatsoever; the lack of addition would ADD unintended nuance (in this case the implication that you might be insulting them by speaking rudely), and it would be an error on the translator's part to translate your words without changes.
There's definitely a line somewhere in there between "preserving nuance that would be lost in a closer translation" and "adding content that was not even implied in the original", though, and sometimes it's not easy to tell where that lies, but sometimes small additions when purposeful can communicate things about the character and story that help the story.
even further beyond that lies "adding content that is actively incongruent with the original"... and that's where a lot of these decisions fall. i think that's the issue most people take with dubs, myself included
i personally think the Patriarchal Standards line everyone hates is pretty funny on its own and might be an actively good addition... if the character was the type to acknowledge such a thing. as pointed out here the big mistake wasn't its addition on its own, it's that it runs completely counter to the character and tone it's supposed to communicate
(...i think i haven't actually said anything here that isn't said in the video anyways, sorry if this comment is pointless :v sometimes i just answer comments to help me digest the information)
@@Kirbita22 fair enough. Like everything its not black and white and there are some things that benefit but also those that suffer. It all depends on context.
@@Kirbita22 yes but it should only be changed just enough to have it make sense in that language, not to the point of completely changing the joke in to something entirely different.
@@notimeforcreativenamesjust3034 What do you do when the joke can't be translated, tho? This is the sort of thing that ended with people complaining about the interminable Translator's Notes in fansubs
i do agree the examples in this dub and many other notable ones shown here are straight up not necessary tho to the point of adding jokes where none were present
@@Kirbita22 do what manga translators and light novel translators do, try to replicate the joke as much as you can in that language.
The cartoon cipher: were going to analyze the issues of this dub without being bias and choose to pinpoint the moments that we believe are common problems of this dub without complaining nor letting our emotion cloud our juggement.
Their comment section: so anyway I started complaining
That's why this is the best video relating to this topic I have seen
*juggement*
all comment sections are like that, they're bored and got nothing to do so they complain
@@jtlovescodelyoko JT?
@@jackoconnor5590 Yes
The dumbbell dub felt majorly punched up, and honestly I was all for it.
I found it to be charming, myself, that it kinda fit well with the tone of the show, which seemed to be like, not a super serious or dramatically toned show. A lot of 4koma style humor, which most often, aside from visual gags like the personal trainer being like secretly ultra disproportionally ripped under his tracksuit, utilizes cultural reference or puns, which don't always translate well, and can be even harder to match the flaps for.
I find it hard to know what they are talking about because 1 I never watched the sub and 2 that show was great. Maybe I don't care about calling out a line that a character may not say or would word differently.
“Like a teen doing the Tide Pod Challenge”💀
That man was tweaking, blud forgot he was in 2008 💀
I wish that I had handled things with more tact in my old "Sub v Dub" video, particularly with Dragon Maid. So I'm glad to see you guys revist this topic, as I think this kind of discourse is important. More importantly though, I think it's a dicussion that requires the proper degree of analysis to really reach a nuanced conclusion. So great work all around, guys.
Regarding the line when Kobayashi says in the sub "but I'm a woman", as a lesbian, I personally prefer that compared to the dub line. Although people are allowed to have their different opinions on whether they think Torhu and Kobayashi would be better as friends or as lovers, I think the sub line leaves more opportunity for the possibility that Torhu and Kobayashi could become lovers, rather than the dub line where it rules out any chance of the two getting together.
I understand that everyone will have a different opinion on this, this is just what I prefer
Thank god someone has a similar thought process to me
Exactly this. Tohru continually hitting on her even after her outright saying she literally cannot be interested changes Tohru's character into a creep who can't take no for an answer.
yes, i feel as if the line "but im a woman" can also be seen as rooted in internalized homophobia, which many people do experience, and why i find this trope fine
same
Yeah I'm bi and I really prefer "but I'm a woman"
The difference between the two interpretations is that with "I'm a woman" is more like confusion in the character caused by internalized homophobia and not so many LGBT couples rappresentations which I really relate cause when I grew up there was literally no LGBT characters to relate on and I experienced dub trying to make a lesbian couple into friends or even sisters or a guy in drag being dubbed by a woman to make children think he's a woman (just look for mermaid melody in Italian they really made a lesbian couple into sisters without even censoring the "almost kissing" parts)
In the dub her saying "I'm not into woman" makes people see Kobayashi as someone who knows all this kind of stuff and is strictly straight. It sucks cause even for a person like me who loves Tohru and relates to her seeing her actions after what Kobayashi says in the dub makes tohru look like some sort of creep who's ignoring kobayashi's sexuality or even trying to force her own on her. I probably would have hated Tohru if I watched the dubbed version
(I'm sorry for my poor English)
I just think that as translators and voice actors, you have a very big responsibility with everything you say and write because you are not speaking for yourself, you are representing someone else’s script and show. For people who only watch dubs, this is the only exposure they will get. These whole situation proves that even 1 line can ruin the whole dub experience for some people, and I don’t think it’s fair to consider their experience invalid. If we can have lines/characters that are so amazing and quotable that can redeem entire bad scenes or shows, I don’t think it’s unfair to have the opposite, as it happens here for some people.
Good point, and some people can only watch either only subbed or only dubbed due to disabilities. Personally it takes more than one line for us to be completely put off but it's good to try considering several points of view sometimes.
When dubbing anime the people you are representing is yourself, it's not simple as it's someone else's work. There is so much that goes into the process and dubbing is an art itself. Just trying to do 1 to 1 translations rarely work. While 1 line can hurt the experience of some people that doesn't make it bad. I've seen so many people say dubs insert politics while overlooking the inherent politics of anime, see Code Geass.
i agree. your job is to take someone's creation and make it accessible to people who speak a different language. to treat the product, someone else's piece of art, as your own personal soapbox to stand atop and preach from, is really sickening to me. if the original author of the script did not intend for their piece of art to be politically divisive and politically inflammatory then it is peak narcissism for you to turn it into something politically divisive of your own accord when it was no such thing before you got your greedy claws on it, when you could have simply kept your stupid personal beliefs out of it and just did your job and adapted the script.
@@greyjedi1272 code geass is inherently political because the writer made it political. not all anime is inherently political and that's an absurd thing to say that you can just point to some examples of anime plots being political and say "oh well anime is inherently political after all", so now it's fine to take a cute fun slice of life anime that was only ever meant to act as lighthearted escapism for it's audience and turn it's audience into a political battleground other than to sate your own narcissism.
nobody is saying anime should be apolitical, the point is that the translators should respect the intent of the author and the source material. if it was political to begin with then the translation should reflect it. a translation of code geass that is completely apolitical would be horrible translation. if the source material was not political then it was not jamie marchi's job to make it political. if you do then you should find a different industry to work in if you can't handle the power you've been given after you've demonstrated that you suck at your job because you're irresponsible. You were given an inch to restructure the dialogue to fit the timing of the mouth flaps and to make it sound grammatically natural for the English language, and you took a mile and treated the show like it was your car to plaster a divisive polarizing political bumper sticker on just because you could, in the process completely souring the experience for a huge amount of people. The show is like a big delicious cake that anyone could enjoy and you couldn't help yourself but to shove your finger up your ass and wipe a smear of shit on one corner, and now a huge amount of people justifiably wouldn't touch the cake with a 10 foot pole.
@@nobody2021 The problem here is that art for the most part is political. I just have a problem with people that act like being political is a button your press. This online culture war crap is cancer to me because to most of the people that take part in it there are just some things they hate to see context be dammed. Hell the fact that it has a heavy girl on girl plot makes it political. But it's a matter of the subject, in the case of the big titted dragon people reacted to the way she dressed. She unknowingly bucked a trend. One that like it or not can be seen as a patriarchal standard. Personally I don't like the way it was said because it was a bit of a mouthful but the idea behind the statement was 100% on point. This is the only thing I try to explain to people but most can't see pass the fact that it's a lesbian anime about dragons. And while it's a whataboutism and I hate those it's interesting to me that 1 or 2 lines seemed to break the internet yet far more problematic things like the kids and sex subplot seem to not bother people at all.
the "patriarchal society demands" line reminds me of this other hotly contested line (from a different anime)....uhhhh they were in an arcade and a girl says "...like those gamegate creeps!". mayhaps amusing in a vacuum, but wildly out of place and weird otherwise. Generally I DO love when dubs make more standard and more sterile dialogue snazzier.
Kobayashi's line is far less egregious but i think it was stuck in a trap of not falling into japanese cliche WHILE conveying that she's still bluntly refusing Tohru's declaration.
thanks for the video either way, it's nice to get an overview on this without so many heated voices in the room.
Whats gamergate
@@turtleboy1188 not something i can accurately and neutrally explain in a youtube comment.
just something inappropriate for an anime dub.
@@turtleboy1188 I could explain what it is but then this would lead to a flame war caused by people truly mispresenting it into something it is not and besides, I don't even care about that movement nor it was the reason why I have very unorthodox views.
What I would do is show you two videos critiquing the movement for very different reasons than what others say who watch this channel. Both videos are from two different people, a MGTOW and a Catholic dissident right winger, who use the same argument made by a... certain controversial woman and agree with the premises but made themselves clear that they don't agree with her conclusions.
Colttane's video (note that Gamergate was only discussed in one section of an hour and a half video)
ua-cam.com/video/FKwfmrxDHW4/v-deo.html
The Distributist's video. (Don't let the title fool you. It becomes apparent why later in the video)
ua-cam.com/video/v2ja9KRGGqc/v-deo.html
@@turtleboy1188 exactly the line ages like milk the farther in years we get
Eh, I'm of 2 minds. In the sub, Lucoa's line is barely a joke. In the Dub, there was at least an attempt. Tohru's response was genuinely hilarious.
I think the "im a woman" line could actually fit the series well, as mentioned earlier, the dragons are kinda clueless of the society they find themselves in, kobayashi having lived in japan might think that such romance wasnt really a thing while tooru could see it more naturally due to her not growing up in such environment.
Would make it even more wholesome for kobayashi to later outgrow her previous views on it and accept tooru
its almost like the manga added it for a reason and they didnt have too be removed.
and dint have too be this specific.
That's character development right there
Thanks for this! I definitely believe that we need to have these discussions and criticism where it’s due. I feel Dubs are important to make anime accessible to everyone and I wish more anime had dubs. It’s hard when I can’t recommend an anime to friends with reading disabilities. We need to be able to criticize the dubs as well without harassing the localization staff. Otherwise we won’t get the change that we want.
If I remember, the latin Spanish dub (the one I saw) when Tohru confesses to Kobayashi, the lines were
Tohru: "I want to eat you!"
Kobayashi: "You see me as food?"
Tohru: "No! Sexually!"
Kobayashi: "I think that's even worse"
eee 🙃
oh wow they made the line worse-
@@artema. funny, because it sounds like she rejected her for being "that annoying chick" rather for being a girl.
Eeehh ~•~
It's funny because there was a guy in this comment section that said this didn't happen in the Spanish dubs.
27:35 I felt this so much. It feels near impossible to talk about dubs outside of people who like them due to the this and even when I do it's not often issues get brought up.
I'm always amazed at how you guys tackle anime dubs. You tackle very valid questions/ subjects. I find myself both understanding and honestly agreeing with the points made (granted a lot of it is your point of view on the the subject matter with added and well researched information) its one thing to talk about a dub, yet you take it a step further and tackle the subtle details that differ from the original source material which helps or hinders the dub in such a way that I find it rare for channels to tackle the subjects with such care.
Keep up the awesome stuff as I'm a fan of dubs and get curious as to how it differs from subs
I love the "translator notes" you add like your video is a fansub. It seems very appropriate given the subject matter.
You guys should do a video on Sentai dubs. I wanna see your perspectives on how Sentai handles their dubs.
Especially their older dubs done by steven foster.
I really like to see that.
Are they good or bad?
@@Lucira personally speaking, they’re extremely hot or miss. While they can produce some good ones like parasyte, my love story, and made in abyss, they’ve also produce dubs for shows like little busters, haikyuu, and food wars that flip flop between sounding either decent or embarrassingly bad. The latter 3 suffer from some really baffling decisions like LB’s use of referring to an older sibling as “onee/onii-Chan” as opposed to big sis or bro. There’s also haikyuu and food wars’ inconsistencies with direction, vocal delivery, and some spotty casting (erina from food wars for example).
Don’t get me wrong, I’ve supported sentai and I’ll continue to do so, but I just wish they spend more time making their dubs sound more polished and serviceable and less half assed.
@@Lucira The dub of season 1 of Umaru-chan was very good.
Was I the only one that liked the dub, "controversy" aside? Tohru is adorable.
I actually rlly liked the dub, i didn't really care for the "controversies" too. The voices fits well
I have legitimately not seen one person hate on the dub for Dragon Maid who didn't outright just hate all dubs for whatever stupid reason until now, I love the manga and the anime all the same despite the differences (regardless of sub/dub) and I thought this anime had one of the best dubs in terms of voices matching characters.
I'm summary, Tohru is world's cutest maid, 10/10 would cuddle
I loved the dub, the only time I watch sub is when there is a really good show that won't be dubbed right away or at all see Food Wars. I find there are a lot of anime fans that are a part of the online culture war and seeing an anime deal with real world problems is too much for them and they cry SJWs. I got called out for saying how Code Geass/ Gundam Wing and Final Fantasy 7 were about politics. But I loved this show and I feel most of the "problems" are at worst nitpicking.
The dub was great it's in my top 10 for dubs. The actors were great
I watched the dub first and I love it besides that
I haven't watched the dub, but that "dragon style" made me spit out my drink.
This is why I like this channel you try and look at it from both sides and not just one and just say it's bad. Keep up the good work.
As an example of punching up dialogue, my favorite anime and english dub overall, Pani Poni Dash actually had a coupld of dub writers, not just Steven Foster. The last 4 episodes were written by Sarah Alys Lindholm (A translator for ADV who currently works at FUNi) and Christine Auten (who voices Mesousa in that show), and it shows asit's ironically punched up, but it felt pretty carefully done. There were other times in that dub were they add in a reference or two (Episode 10 had Mel Gibson being referenced, which actually wasn't there in the original version. Funny, as both the Japanese and English version of one epiosde references Chuck Norris), but I never really thought it was that distracting.
as a lesbian, i see the line "im not into women" as a straight (pun intended) up rejection. like she knows shes not into girls. so its actyally uncomfortable she continues to be persued, imo. not to mention a girl being straight is a majooor turn off, for good reason!!
but tge confused "we are both girls?" shows she hasnt explored her sexuality, and doesnt knoe what to make of it before she discovers herself, which i prefer.
The last episode shows she's grown to love Tohru even in the dub.
I always took Kobayashi's line "I'm not into women or dragons" as simply the show setting up that she either assumes she's straight or simply hasn't given it much thought. Then throughout the series when her relationship with Tohru develops, she starts to learn more about her sexuality like that.
WAIT, THERES A SEASON 2 COMING!!!??!! LETS GOOOOO!!! Also, hey, yeah, good video. I was honestly a little scared when I clicked on it but you did a good 👍✨
in all honesty, it's as if they (funimation) glossed over the whole series on a whole and only read the words on the script instead of watching scene for scene, detail for detail. case in point with the "patriarchal societal demands" line, every time someone had complained about the way that Quetzalcoatl dressed or had dragged her away to put on something more appropriate was always a woman. not a man but a woman, and since they're dragons i doubt they would go to the dragon embassy situated in the "does not exist" district of Japan, so they just blend in and try to wing how they live, which is pretty much what we've witnessed with every dragon that came to earth/japan.
This is, unfortunately, a massive problem with the simuldubbing process as a whole: the actors can't properly see the subtlety of the series they're working on because they're working on it while the original show is being made
Good analysis. No complaints.
Despite the obvious missteps (the Patriarchy line is the one one I really have an issue with) I believe the best part's of Dragon Maid's dub still fully stand on their own, particularly the more serious and quiet moments. Punching up is always going to be a balancing act but if actors, script writers, and directors never or rarely took any creative risks and liberties with source material we wouldn't have what I consider to be some of the best work of the era like Cowboy bebop. Using more modern dialogue that's relevant now is the same way, you'll never be able to completely avoid being a product of the time. Commonly used phrasing like "killer" or "PTSD" is typically on the safer side because they've been around for a considerable length of time and they aren't immediately datable even if they fall out of our vernacular. When very specific now current internet/political buzzwords start working their way in the material ages much more poorly, though making fun of your own medium and making those more subtle references resonate with me a lot more.
I absolutely died laughing at the 'Lucy' reference and Kanna's "Dragon Style" line and there aren't many shows recently that can make me bust out laughing like that.
Even with most of the characterization changes and what they imply being up for debate, I think they're pretty true to the author's overall intentions (the obvious issues excluded) having read up to the most recently translated volume of the Manga, but I can't speak to the intentions of the Japanese script writers. That said Kyo Ani did an amazing job adapting the Manga and I'm very curious how they're going to handle Ilulu and other major developments from the 4th volume onward, and if Funimation's staff will end up playing the season 2 dub safer amidst the vocal backlash. I would hope that they've carefully considered the legitimate criticism and will still give the show the edge I really enjoyed.
I absolutely love Kobayashi's personality in the dub. The voice casting is perfect, and the deadpan is a great contrast to the baby dialogue going on around her, instantly cooling the flames if you will.
One of the reasons I appreciate Dragon Maid is it handles the characters as their own entities, and not necessarily stereotypes. Sure Lucuoa is the "Big Sister Yuri Shota Hunter" type, and Kobayashi is the "emotionally-disconnected tomboyish nerd," but more than anything it was their unique personalities which shined through.
Even MORE importantly, each of the characters CHANGED as a result of one another, whether for the better or otherwise. Did Kobayashi have lesbians feelings but repressed them due to social norms? Maybe? I guess? But the important thing is due to Tohru's love, Kobayashi later fell in love with Tohru, which in itself transcended social norms (the norms of heterosexuality, AND homosexuality).
Dragon Maid is heralded as a "Modern progressive lesbian anime," but such a benign label fails to realize that it was the CHARACTERS that made this show so great....NOT the political motivations. By celebrating the unique individualism of all the characters, Dragon Maid transcended political correct labels which often try to put people in groups. When such groups demand you never deviate from the labels of a group, Dragon Maid did that and succeeded on THEIR terms not by being PC trash, but by being HUMAN.
The English rewrite of Lucuoa's "patriarchy" line is therefore all the more of a SPIT IN THE FACE when it's executed, because it TOTALLY misses this point in order to shoe horn in an exclusionary isolating shallow politically-charged bias for no real reason. THAT is why normal people see it as jarring and were pissed. A literal blemish that could had been avoided.
I will finish this giving credit where it's due: With the exception of Lucuoa's English VA (a Twitter fan-combative preachy SJW who gave nothing interesting or memorable to the role other than controversy), the English dub was well written, well casted, and all around enjoyable.
I couldn't agree more with this comment! I like almost everything about this dub, except for just about EVERYTHING Jamie had to do with it. *Especially the patriarchy line.*
Her changes singlehandedly ruin the dub for me, and her response to all the criticism just makes it so much worse. It's such a shame really to me.....😔
I really like this show but a number of the themes and jokes really hurt it. Lots of people like the busty dragon but she is hunting down a kid that clearly doesn't like it or can consent. Playing it for laughs seems kinda shitty to me.
@@greyjedi1272 I interpreted it as an older sister/younger brother kinda relationship. As if she wasn't hunting down the boy, but constantly digging herself in a worst situation (but unintentionally).
@@vjm3 I get that was the goal but she she comes off as a creeper.
"I'm not into women or dragons" to me only shows how she changes during the series. At first Kobayashi is closed off from everyone by the end she's pretty much in a functional relationship with a child.
It's not amazing, but at least it didn't remove most of the atmosphere and assassinate most of the character development to be replaced by stereotypes like the Digimon Adventure dub, especially with a lot of the sexist stuff they did with Mimi.
Saying patriarchy is not censorship.
Quite enjoyed the editing style of this video paired with the thought out content. Pairs well together. You've got a new fan :)
Thank you for writing this. I've watched Dragon Maid once, in dub, and I enjoyed it... I didn't know about the differences in the original though. However, since I've been able to talk 2 of my friends into watching it with me in Japanese, I was going to get to see this on Thursday. That being said, I still felt that throughout the show, Kobayashi actually grew to start to care for Tohru & Kanna as a partner & parent. I think the OVA episode also helped to further this for me.
I truly love their dynamic and that it actually proves the old adage: Blood is thicker than water... but it proves the original text of it... "The Blood of the Brotherhood is thicker than the Water of the Womb."
I watched until the end. I learn so much about these types of topics due to your well reasoned and researched approach. Thanks.
Giving an actual comment this time, I guess I fall into the category of loving punched up scripts because that's what I grew up with. Samurai Pizza Cats remains one of my favourite shows of all time, same with the Ace Attorney series game-wise. But I recognise that can lead to issues when the show itself is, for example, clearly set in Japan.
My thoughts: I think you need to tighten up the dialogue on level 3.
I really don't think that I can add anything else to your comments about the "But we're both girls!" trope. The re-write seemed to have good intentions, but it's a door slamming shut that the later drunk comments about societal pressure doesn't totally fix.
I'll be honest. I definitely fall into the "Dubs Suck, Subs Forever" camp, and I'm actively trying to change my attitude. It just still hurts to see such hamfisted localization put into scripts when one of the main rules I see for writing is "Don't add memes or pop culture references" since they tend ot age really poorly, and stick out like sore thumbs even in a timely delivery.
this video deserves much more views! nice video! subbed :)
14:30 I thought she was talking about "Limitless" which was A-List Starred Bomb.
I think the goal should be not try to inject the work with western values. If Miss Kobayashi want to portrait her protagonist to have a very backwards, non-progressive viewpoint on female x female relationships because her viewpoint comes from a society where that is frawned at, LET SHE HAVE IT. It's part of her character due the society she lives in.
Doesn't matter if the westerns don't get the culture. I don't think they will totally hate her character if she say something like that at first. Moreso with her going against what she said later in the anime, with, you know, her CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT?
And even if she didn't get that character development, it's okay. Characters should be allowed to have flaws. Just because we disagree with ONE thing she said doesn't mean that the character is no longer enjoyable.
Thanks for making this. Having such an uninterruptible block to make the arguments, with an attempt (and a good one, at that) to be unbiased feels like it'll really help with a lot of the nonsense and derailing attempts that go on whenever this discussion comes up. With any luck this will help let dubs move forward towards a brighter future, both better accepted for all the good things they already do, and with fewer of the mistakes some people like to hyper-focus on.
I still don’t get all that mentally ill alphabet gang gets all butthurt about this anime
Straight Men aren't the Alphabet gang. XD You do know DRAGON MAID's main demographic is straight men and they caused the biggest uproar about the line, right?! The LGBTQ+ was the vocal minority but got the most attention because they are the LGBTQ+.
@@JoshuaPAMployee I’m a straight guy but I still don’t see the problem here
I absolutely love the notion of thinking more critically and looking at these localization choices without dismissing anything as a whole that you guys bring into your channel, makes it fun to look forward to any topic you cover.
Anyway, I personally think there's a lot of merit to punching up dialogue- to an extent, and like you guys laid out, it does ultimately come to the nature of the show itself. With a case like Dragon Maid, while it's true the show has plenty of its heartfelt moments and its heart lies in its characters and their comedy, it *is* a pretty silly, meme-y show, so I think the odd zinger was definitely not wrong of the dub, considering it feels in the spirit of the original. That said, the characters are ultimately the biggest issue, especially Lucoa. I understand the onee archetype isn't really as prevalent in English, but it feels like she was written without much consideration to her origins at all to the point where I start doubting Marchie's understanding of the material she was adapting.
Although that feels somewhat unfair to say, because ultimately I feel the trouble with this dub weren't caused by the innate practice of sprucing up dialogue for a different audience, but rather from its rushed simuldub nature, not really *allowing* Marchie full understanding of the characters and intent of the show, making this kind of trouble bound to happen (Even if she'd read the manga, only volume 1 was out in English at the moment of the show's release, and I *really* doubt official dub staff will go read fan translations and use them for reference, especially when they're under a time limit).
Ultimately, sprucing up dialogue is a delicate art, one that should be done with a full understanding of the material you're sprucing, and that's where doing it during a simuldub becomes an issue. While you *could* edit it for the home release, I find that Funimation rarely does, if only because their output makes examining this stuff a lot more tricky. It'll be interesting to see what comes of season 2's dub, even if I'll be watching the show in Japanese, and I hope that by opening this forum to talk about these subjects we can at least make the current conversation about them... A little less toxic.
(By the way, as a bi woman, I honestly think the reaction over Kobayashi's line change is ridiculous. Just because someone *says* they're a certain sexuality doesn't mean they actually are. Especially with heterosexual people. A character like Kobayashi to me also feels to me like one who doesn't *really* know what she is, despite trying to put out a persona that makes you think otherwise.)
I do find it funny how they fit the patriarchy line into dragon maid but didn't question the "interesting" relationship between lucoa and shouta. Or the loli twister scene... but you know, politics.
9:09
Except Kobayashi is drunk, and drunk!Kobayashi shows gives no fucks about what's acceptable, given how her first scene when she's drunk has her forcibly stripping Tohru in public.
really great video
i've not yet watched the dub and heard mixed reviews and this really helped me understand it more
It's not hurtful for a tolerant straight person stating he/she isn't attracted to a gay person hitting on him/her. I've been there and I was upfront and honest with guys asking me out on 3 seperate occasions. Said guys may have hurt feelings at first, but it was more humane in the long run because I didn't give them false hope or make them feel unattractive.
I mean it is technically hurtful, but it isn't wrong like you said. It's the same as when a woman rejects a guy (or if the very rare reverse ever happens). Does anyone think it's bad/wrong/weird/non-PC for a woman to reject a guy's affections? Hell no, obviously. If someone isn't gay then clearly rejecting someone who IS is not a morally wrong thing to do. We just have so many idiots in today's society trying to propagandize us with some truly stupid crud.
@@LilJbm1 You make some good points.
While I have a critical enough mind so as to not be so defensive of dubs to the point of not acknowledging flaws in them when they are there but I still feel fair in saying that its exasperating to continuously see people who are explicitly anti-dub clearly having only seen the two lines(certainly flawed as they are) from this dub and used it to basically say "here you go everybody these isolated incidents from one dub are justification for why anime shouldn't be dubbed at all"
Thanks for bringing up how funimation have some tact despite mistakes and problematic decisions they've made they still very often know how to read the room and play emotional and serious moments completely straight, oh and when they get punched up dialogue right by keeping in line with characterisation it leads to some pure comedy gold dialogue, their dxd dub is fantastic because they do lean in on how ridiculous that show can be and lands more than it doesn't.
On the flip side, a few lines can be all it takes to ruin a show for someone because it messes with their image of the character.
@@LanceThumping Examples please
@@LanceThumping
Remember, a couple of changed lines is just tame compared to how 4Kids nearly truncated all of One Piece.
@@Santoryu90 A more egregious example is Tokyopop's Initial D dub. Everyone was changed to be more like gangsta talkin' and droppin' their Gs all the time. They did this to pretty much all the characters including Takumi (named changed to Tak) and the Takahashi (T.K.) brothers. This might make sense for some of the fans watching and common folk like Itsuki, but not for the others who have a more technical understanding of street racing.
Another example is arguably Demon Slayer's dub. It has a music overwhelming the dialogue problem despite it being an overall quality dub. A good example of this is during Tanjiro no Uta (that well known song in case you don't know). In that episode, there are several noticeable mistakes. The biggest one for me has been the volume. If you notice in the Japanese version, the music dies down with the action and when characters are talking. The dub either goes completely silent or the music continues. This makes it harder to hear what characters are saying because they didn't bother to adjust the volume of the music when characters are talking. It makes it hard for me to hear what they are saying because the music overwhelms everything in the dub. Tanjiro also switches from using Water Breathing Constant Flux (something like that) in English to Hinokami Kagura (completely in Japanese).
Gundam on the other hand does a fairly good job of adjusting the audio to the volume of characters talking in most of their series and avoid this problem though their Australian SEA dubs has a lot of accent slippage that can throw things off too. Check out Gundam Build Fighters Try for examples of that.
As for your last question, on punching-up: I generally prefer more accuracy to punching up in translations but I am sure there are some cases that I've liked, and I'm just not thinking of them.
Thank you for your continued excellent work guys!
7:32 I don't know if you intended it, but I saw that.
Damn bro, can't believe it.
10:40 is this a surf rock rendition Polovtsian dances? lmao
Algorithm comment
Your point about how punching up is common in fanservice romcoms really hits the point on the head: it very much seems like not all projects are being handled with the same level of care. Translators should always treat every work with the upmost respect as a matter of professionalism and it should be up to the audience alone to decide whether Ancient Magus' Bride deserves to be taken more seriously than Dragon Maid, not Jamie Marchi.
4 years since maid dragon? That's the first seasonal I watched live and I made a bunch of friends who watched shows together.
The drama surrounding this dub was pretty hot when it was made so I'm excited to see what the real deal was.
I couldn't bring myself to rewatch maid dragon cause of just how I watch shows, so I ended up not watching the dub cause I figured watching it and getting mad wouldn't be very productive
Its so weird to see dubs struggle with localizing dialogue, but then Naruto's dub is literally just the official viz english manga translation almost verbatim.
What’s sad is that I actually thought the voices for tohru and kobayashi were really good, it sucks the dub is ruined for others by bad script writing since the voices were pretty okay for what it was
man that "dragon style" line is awful
Yeah, it's completely out of character for Kanna; that's not how she speaks. The implication is that she's simply and bluntly stating "I wanted to fuck her.", not some raunchy tirade.
@@BloodrealmX i mean no its not even that, the anime left it ambiguous intentionally and it could have just been something inoffensive like a kiss. But then the dub not only explicitly makes it about sex (which is gross here), it has to make some terrible innuendo joke that Kanna would never say considering her blunt personality and the fact that she doesnt and shouldnt know what "doggy style" is to be able to make a "dragon style" joke. It just sucks. Sorry for rambling but its amazing how little thought went into that joke attempt.
A full year and still can't find any comments pointing out the "But I'm a/But we're both women" line is a yuri genre staple. So much so that it serves as a flag for the canon couple.
I really like your analysis videos talking about Dubs and Subs. I personally just feel like I have seen some people just want to harass others over these things and that sometimes people will never be satisfied or can find or make up something to complain about, so I am a bit more defensive for Dubs and the people that work on them. There can be issues depending on a persons viewpoint on it, just like what you said near the end about peoples opinions and their feelings and wanting to really improve and being able to understand the reasons why some things could need to be changed. I do like that you acknowledge biases and that there are people working on it with passion and that it has a lot more parts to it and not just so simple all or nothing answers.
I really like the Prison School dub including a bunch of the punch-ups. I watched the sub as it aired and rewatched with the dub when I got the Blu-ray.
For a show that was already completely ridiculous and bonkers, any punch-ups didn't feel at all off to me, it was like a bonus for rewatching a show honestly.
I don't watch many dubs now-a-days mostly because the convinced factor but I also don't generally feel encouraged to try to watch more dubs as the risk of writing or performances potentially not doing the show the proper justice.
Something that's bugged me with dubs more and more is "anime voice acting" a lot of dialog doesn't sound quite as natural as I'd like, including Dragon Maid. When it's in Japanese it doesn't sound like anime acting, it just sounds like anime. Something I really like about No Game No Life, and generally all of Sentai Filmworks, is how more natural dubs sound. NGNL is about as anime as you get but the performances sounds great and all I thought was how much fun the actors must have had in that booth.
I'm a novice voice actor so I pay a lot of attention to performances, to be fair, it's easy to listen and critique but it is hard to match exactly the tone you have in your head until you go back and listen to it, it's especially hard when your dubbing and the other actor hasn't recorded yet so you can't listen to how it flows until it's done and too late.
Sorry for the rambles I tried to use as much proper punctuation to make it as readable as I could. XP
TBH though, actually talking to Japanese people and comparing to how Japanese people sound in anime, there IS that same difference that you're describing.
I guess that's just how anime sounds.
I had no idea of this controversy - as a dub fanatic I feel a little ashamed! Having not seen the dub and let this series go on my backlog of regret for this long, I'd love to hear some arguments in favor of both sides of "watch dub or sub first" because honestly, I tend to side with the localizations which DO go the extra mile to give characters color and add jokes to scripts which are honestly kind of dry, especially outside a Japanese humor sensibility. And this is from someone conversationally fluent in Japanese. So legit - if any fans or advocates of either side would like to venture their thoughts, leave them before and I'll update with what happens. Lovely work Cipher!
I haven't seen the sub but I really like the dub
I'm generally someone in favor of subs over dubs, but often not because of the dialogue. Dubs often feel like they're using one track ADR where one aspect of dialogue, music, or sound effects tend to overwhelm the other. You end up with loud sound effects, dialogue that is too soft, or music that can overwhelm everything (Bleach for me was one of the worst dubs because of this). Anime has had plenty of time to try to fix this, but it doesn't feel like most of them put any effort into doing this.
I feel that bringing in real world politics is something that should be avoided unless the series is based around real world politics. The whole patriarchy and Gamergate lines that get brought up ends up implying that those things have an impact on their world. But, it is never shown or seen and ends up feeling like they are forced in so that they can take a shot at their critics who say they are censoring too much. It ends up making those people feel like they are correct in saying that dubs are bad.
@@ohnosmoarlulcatz Correct me if i'm wrong, but i believe this is the side effect of the simuldub. They need to produce an anime dub so quickly resulting in miscasted, rushed, and along with it, badly written dubbed like this
@@restautama This has been a problem long before simuldubs. Bleach for example had almost 2 years between its Japanese (October 2004) and US (September 2006) air dates yet this audio problem remained throughout the series. Demon Slayer had 8 months and this was still a problem 15 years later. The music in the dub of Demon Slayer doesn't lower when characters are talking like it does in the sub, resulting in the music covering the dialogue in some scenes. This is the problem that I am pointing to in the previous post. It feels like they haven't changed their methods of dubbing other than perhaps going all digital if they were still using the old ways of sound mixing in the mid 2000s and are continuing to repeat the same mistakes. The problems with ADR is a failure of the audio people more than anything and they have zero interest in correcting it when this is probably the most damaging aspect outside of the minute long cut for each episode.
The miscast is an industry wide problem where they've essentially typecast their voice actors for a certain voice and are essentially just told "do that voice all the time!". A good example of this is Johnny Yong Bosch. He has a pretty wide range, probably close to what Tara Strong can do. But in most anime, he does the same voice and it all sounds the same. Add in the fact that he is in so many series without showing that range and you get the idea that everyone sounds the same. Compare this to someone like Nana Mizuki who is in pretty much half a dozen anime every year in Japan since 2000. But, her characters are allowed to have a decent range of voices and she is allowed to be more expressive. Just compare her two Moka voices of Rosario + Vampire or compare the soft spoken Hinata in Naruto and the hyper aggressive Angelise in Cross Ange.
As for the writing, these are intentionally modified lines. Someone had to go in there and go out of their way to remove the original lines and replace it with something more socially relevant. It was something they had to put extra time into rather than an accidental slip like Water Form being translated but Hinokami Kagura not being translated. It wasn't a simple mistake like bad grammar or inconsistency with a WebNovel translation or like Yugioh GX with the intentional ridiculousness that comes with hack dubs. Someone had to go out of their way to change things out of context.
@@ohnosmoarlulcatz Well thanks for the explanation. I didn't know about that really. But i'm actually not pointing to anime dubbing in general, i'm actually pointing to funimation in particular
As a frequent dub viewer, I appreciate the nuisance you but into this piece. I hate feeling like I missed out on something because of the dub, but I also love good localizations that add charm to the scene (Like the how to tame your dragon line).
I don't think it's the job of dubbers to "fix" the culture they're adapting from. If the original creators write a line that would make a member of an American audience uncomfortable, then that's their responsibility. The dubber's responsibility is to either faithfully adapt to the original vision, or (if they deem the work immoral) not dub it at all.
I generally agree, but, as a food for thought, what if the intent of the line is independent of the problematic element? Maybe the line was just genuinely seen as more appropriate, for whatever reason, and that element was lost as a byproduct?
It's generally considered reasonable when this is done for material that isn't particularly controversial, so should problematic elements be retained *because* they're problematic?
The answer may well be yes, it's not uncommon that those kinds of things are more revelatory than your average trait. It could also be no, just because something might make people uncomfortable doesn't mean that it should get special treatment, if anything you'd think it'd be the opposite.
I think of Persona 4 as an example. If you're not familiar, two characters, Kanji and Naoto, have somewhat ambiguous explorations of their sexuality and gender identity respectively. The overall impression left could be read as those doubts being secondary to other concerns and basically fictitious, or as having been valid, with those characters simply becoming comfortable with those elements of themselves. Neither read is necessarily inappropriate in the context of the game, but one also feels a bit more dismissive as an additional negative.
I think it's situations like those where the culture "fix" could also be seen as a general scripting "fix" depending on what the team feels is actually being said in the text, in spite of the literal words on the page.
In episode 96 of Sailor Moon S, there's a scene where Usagi sneered at Makoto for having a crush on Haruka despite the fact that she's a woman then Makoto humorously shrug it off and then her friends told her she should find a guy. Sailor Moon is a series known for its LGBTQ themes and we got some lines that reeks homophobia. And guess what, it's from the original Japanese version!
However, they changed it in the Viz dub: they made Usagi sneering at Makoto for having a crush on Haruka and... that's it. Makoto's response is she still shrugs it off but more in a nice way and then her friends are telling her about their third wheel concerns.
I also noticed that in the manga, Usagi is bisexual as *fuck* and displays attraction to every other Sailor scout. So the Viz dub is actually more in character with Usagi as intended, whereas the original Japanese dialogue was written for a more mainstream audience.
An argument against this change is often that a dub should preserve everything from the original including its more egregious flaws. And word for word translations and translations that are 'faithful to a fault' are not good either.
@SurrealKeenan . I agree with this 100%. A localization teams job is to adapt a product translation from one language to another, with the goal of keeping the script as close to the original work as best as you can, NOT change things that may be offensive to other cultures, since that can completely change what the original creator intended, which I'd argue is offensive in itself for not respecting the culture itself the art originated from. In my opinion, If the localization team finds a piece of media to be uncomfortable to work on then they should simply NOT work on it. It's not that hard.
@@SaberToothPortilla in scenarios like that where the characters motives are more ambiguous then I think it's fine. However, If it's clearly defined than that's another story. Since you brought up an Atlus game, I'll use the another title they developed named Catherine as an example. In the original english release of that game, there is a scene where a a trans character gives the main character advice on how a woman's mind can behave. However, instead of excepting the advice he brushes it off and says:
"I'd be more convinced if a woman was telling me this"
However, in the remastered english version of the game the line isn't in there at all. I have issues with this, since it goes against the creators intent. Regardless of how people feel about how transphobic the main character's outlook may be, the fact remains that that's how the original writers of the game intended him to be. So it should have stayed, and if that person who pushed for the change in that script was that uncomfortable with the scene then that person shouldn't have participated in it.
@@lapis3965 Totally agreed, that'd be an example of one of those situations where the problematic line *is* revelatory.
Catherine is an interesting case, because there are some things that were scrubbed and others that weren't? I suppose that that line was probably a bit too direct, but there are others that are still in the game to the same effect, mainly the hints that are dropped to indicate that she is trans. It still comes across that all the characters are pretty backward, though not necessarily mean spirited, they just don't do it all the time, which is weird.
Although, considering some of the new content in Full-Body, it's possible that the original script changed too? I actually don't know.
Idk about you guys, but I really like both the subbed and dubbed versions. They're both funny and despite the differences I still have fun watching the anime
Wow.. I really like this channel. I've watched 3 videos so far and it's been not only informative, but entertaining. I have no money I can give, but I surely will like and subscribe. Thank you.
Wow, thank you so much!
@@TheCartoonCipher It's really the least I can do ^^ I hope your content continues to reach and educate others and I'm confident your channel will continue to flourish!
Great opening clip man!
Intersting videos, tough I don't have too much to say.
One of the main reason that I learn English was to watch the format of movies series and more in the original language.
And the war of dub vs sub is so funny I don't why some people get so much into it
At first, I thought people were being super mean to the dub for that one Lucoa line. I saw the show in dub and had very few issues with it. Seeing this whole video, I still love the show but understand why people were dissatisfied with it. This is a great video. Keep up the good work!
Same here, however I do have issue with how the toxic portion of the anime community responded to the scriptwriters, particularly with Jamie Marchi.
It’s fine to criticize and provide a constructive feedback if you feel like the script is off-base from the source material, but it’s absolutely inappropriate to demonize them for simply punching up the dialogue a tad too much. It easily turns into a negative echo chamber that can put off people from anime all together.
@@MetalSonicReject I'm pretty sure she had it coming.
@@devilhunterradio8395 Clearly you haven’t been watching the video. There are other writers that have a say and hand on the script besides Jamie.
@@MetalSonicReject Do some research. Don't blindly consume from videos.
In my opinion, dubs should only change lines when either removing honorifics, or when punching up dialogue that fits the character saying the said dialogue. Putting heavy handed political commentary or pop culture references when they weren't there to begin with is unacceptable.
Sorta off topic:
The singer of the op sings in a band made by Sanrio
Sb69 had the op in game
I didn't even notice eather of these lines, and the dub of this show was the second anime I watched in December of 2017, and was what put me down the path of now having seen over 150 different shows, so I have no problem with these, but I can see why others would.
Sadly.. The problem is that these pretentious folks live in this hyper political bubble, so when they "translate" for a dub, it isn't to so much "making a point" as its just the result of them "writing what they know".
I could not imagine what it would be like living my life thinking politically all the time. Ugh.
Well, in regards to Episode 1's infamous change (this is before the video premieres), I know it has been criticized for supposedly rewriting Miss Kobayashi as a heterosexual woman (speaking as a casual Manga reader here after seeing the first season) and thus unable to let Tohru grow on here… but I just can’t agree.
For one thing, actually watching the Anime's dub thoroughly doesn't reveal any other major line tweaks that might downplay the titular characters feelings for each other. You still get moments of Kobayashi blushing at Tohru and being a touch affectionate with her in that, "You drive me crazy but I think I'm starting to like crazy," type of dynamic. Hell, what is Kanna to them if not their adopted daughter?
Even with that line in mind, I couldn't not see their romance play out. I literally squeed in the final episode where Kobayashi stood up to Tohru's father like the giddy shipper I am. Compare this to Sailor Moon's first dub where Haruka and Michiru were consistently referred to as cousins in each episode to hide their romance. That's not even getting into Zoisite or Fish's Eye.
The popular reading that it makes Miss Kobayashi straight just... doesn't click for me. Given that it was episode one, I thought it was just the protagonist still in that, "I don't like you now but I'll grow fond of you in time," stage in romantic comedies. They say they're not interested but then...
Someone who understands, finally!
Good, but that’s you and maybe some other people. I have had people yell at me that Kobayashi is straight because she said so in the first episode... so it can change the whole plot for casual viewers.
@@MellBruce Yeeeeah, certain moments throughout the season say otherwise especially in the dub.
@@MellBruce Well, people can't help how they feel I guess.
I like this. It’s something that people need to understand, for anything to improve you have to make the good known as well as the bad. Seriously just because of 2 lines people say the dub is completely ruined and others claim that there are political views through out, it shows that you need to be careful and use your own judgment when it comes to things on the internet, whenever I look for an opinion on the internet I always search for the most levelheaded opinion. One who can find the good and the bad in things.
Also complete dismissal of something for just two lines is really extreme.
It’s almost over guys. AI will be fixing things and we’ll finally have good translation.