Woodturning FAILS Recessed Mortise - Video
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- Опубліковано 6 січ 2024
- Woodturning FAILS Recessed Mortise - Video
Make your wood bowl recessed mortise correctly and avoid these approaches that will FAIL!
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#woodturning #woodworking #turnawoodbowl #bowlturning - Навчання та стиль
Kent, besides the complete understanding of technical "Why" .
You're safety comments make special purpose after seeing those hunks of wood sailing across the room.
Thank you again
;) Be safe Nelson. I hope I helped save you some pain. All the best to you and Happy Turning!
I use a recess exclusively, and once turn my bowls. The more they warp, the more I like them.... It still cracks me up to hear people argue about which is better, a recess or a tenon. As long as they are made properly, there is no advantage to either, and the recess is my finished bottom. So, a straight sided deep recess. This is how I mount all of my bowl blanks, and I haven't used a face plate in years. The only exception for that was one 22 inch diameter blank I turned and cored, and I don't think they make forstner bits big enough to securely mount a blank that size. A 2 5/8 inch bit is perfect for my Vicmark jaws. I use a forstner bit to drill the recess. some times I go down intentionally so that the blank will rest on the outside face of the chuck jaws. This is especially handy for uneven blanks so you have a flat surface to position your blank on. It does have a great grip for strength, and I don't know if I could tear one off the lathe even if I tried, and I do all of my roughing with scrapers. This is without the tailstock engaged, which most of the time is how I turn my bowls. Yes, the edges of the recess should match the angle of your chuck jaws, and dove tail offer the best grip, providing a 'locking wedged joint'. I use a NRS (negative rake scraper) for my finish cut and to get the angle. 2 advantages with that. One is a nice clean 220 grit ready cut, and two is the NRS nibbles off the high spots so you get a much closer dead flat surface so you have almost no run out when you reverse the bowl. As for depth needed for a secure grip, it depends. I watched Mike Mahoney turn a platter from a dried walnut blank, maybe 16 inch diameter, and his recess was about 1/16. That is 'professional' level. For my once turned bowls, I am never more than 1/8 inch deep, and again, that is professional level. Learning to avoid and/or minimize catches is huge in safety to keep things from going into orbit.... Yes, ALWAYS stand out of the line of fire. This is some thing I never do when turning bowls. I have never found any bowl turning process that requires you to stand in that line.
Great video. Reminds me of some industrial training videos, where there's always that one guy who does everything wrong, usually in a comic fashion.
LOL, not a bad idea, Jim. Thanks and Happy Turning!
thanks, i have made all those mistakes more than once , i enjoy your input , Bryan McCabe, A.K.A, Woodbutcher
Thank you, Bryan! All the best to you and Happy Turning!
Safety First - Kent, good training content. Hitting the eye and face protection is an important aspect of woodturning as well as any shop work, wether it be wood or steel or whatever. We were helping a young man with a project and his comment "I have never been so impressed on how you older guys emphasize the little things that could cause me pain". Seems we all had stories to tell about injuries, ours or others. Keep up the great content. 😉
Lowell
Thank you, Lowell. Yes, be safe, please. Happy Turning!
A proper recess is one that is sized at or very near the perfect circle diameter of the jaws, has a conformation cut to match the outer of rim of the jaws, and is deep enough for the diameter and species of the bowl blank. The pine used in this demo is a particularly soft wood, and a harder wood could used with a more shallow recess. And by the way, a spigot-foot can be broken by overtightening the jaws too.
Good points Bob, Thank you for writing and sharing!
I run inside tenons just about 100% in the last two years. I sand and finish the base of the bowl like i am never coming back... ( because i am not coming back to this side, its done). I have never broke an inside tenon, ever. The only bowl i ever thrown over the lathe was an outside tenon on spalted ( very punky) maple. I use a 3/4" scraper with the chuck relief angle ground into it to create the pocket angle feature. Match the angle. Also , make your tenon diameter just large enough barely pass the completely closed chuck into the tenon so you get the most "bite" when expand the chuck to engage the bowl. Happy turning!!!
Brian, Thank you for writing and sharing! Good info! All the best to you and Happy Turning!
Great lessons Kent.
Thanks for watching Jack!
Thanks Kent
My pleasure, Happy Turning!
Thanks for all the great advice. I have dodged a few bowls
Glad to help Jean. Less dodged bowls in your future. ;) Happy Turning!
good examples. thanks for sharing.
Glad it was helpful! Happy Turning!
Kent, now you tell me! 🙄. I wish I knew this several years ago when I started using a four jaw chuck and tried expansion recesses. I learned all these fails the hard way., and to make it worse, it was on nice wood. 😩 I hope this saves a lot of turners the trouble of learning the hard way. Cheers, Tom
Thanks for sharing, Tom. That's one way of learning. We've all been there. ;) Happy Turning!
I think l need more practice on a mortise. Thank you for the help.
My pleasure, Bobby! Happy Turning!
This is very timely as I am making a recessed mortise while watching this. I watched your correct way to make one, and sounds like I checked all the boxes.
Wonderful! Happy Turning!
Another good educational vid Kent. We know you are a tenon guy at heart. Ive only turned about 40 bowls in rhe last 20 years but i always go with a mortise bottom. Cutting the dovetail is tense but so far so good. I like a mortise bottom and you avoid the need for a jam chuck, sawing tenons, etc.
My new carbide tools seem more forgiving than my bowl gouges catch wise. At 73, i wont live long enough to ever be on your level ...but your vids are wonderful. ALWAYS learn something useful. Thank you !
Sounds good Pinepuppy. Do what works for you. Happy Turning!
I thought at the end that you were going to go back and correct each of the errant bowls for us 😃
Been there done all of them unfortunately! I have historically used mortises more often than tenons because they are convenient for my final designs and finishing process. To be sure, I use tenons sometimes too, and think I can achieve a more elegant foot with them. I have had plenty of failed tenons in my woodturning journey, and they are usually similarly caused by tenon depth, shoulder squareness/crispness, and severity of catch. I had a mortise fail recently on a hollow-form, right as I was nearing completion of the final turn (before sanding). I was working with osage, which is extremely hard and brittle. I was able to reverse mount the bowl with the jaws in the mouth of the hollow form, and got it balanced enough to be able to sand and finish with a functional foot.
Back to the matter at hand, some of my chuck jaws are not dovetailed, they are square with "sharks teeth" for grip instead (I don't like them as much because dovetails are more secure). So sometimes my mortises need to be very close to 90 degrees for maximum engagement. :)
Thank you for writing and sharing! Yes, I too don't like those jaws. It's well worth seeking out the dovetail jawed chucks. Happy Turning!
I've just had my first chuck, so this video has explained what I shouldn't do. Can your next one explain what I should do?
Sure Mark, check these out. ua-cam.com/video/zhu-PQuOdS8/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/yhUMF6PJ-HM/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/d7Z3ASAkWvs/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/tc2TFHf6wOk/v-deo.html I hope these help. Enjoy and Happy Turning!
awesome I have found a favorite Chanel! I am very new and my thinking was "bottoming out " meant more secure to avoid scary, and maybe terrorizing results from catch. No I will not be using my scew chisel aka widow maker any time soon and have switched to carbide. Thank you for your videos kind sir. I am a new subscriber and heard you mention classes! I am so excited to turn on my lathe again after .... well after too long because of frustration.
Thanks and welcome Glen! Happy Turning!
I've been watching several of your videos, and other channels, too. I've had a lathe for a few years, but only for turning pens. I want to start doing more. I bought a 4 jaw chuck and a drill bit chuck for my lathe. Now, i need to learn as much as possible before actually applying gouge to wood. I also will need to buy a bowl gouge as I have a couple carbide tools, a skew, a parting tool, and a spindle gouge. I'm sure that I will have a lot of fun. Thanks for all of your tutoring videos.
John, Thank you for writing and sharing! I know this sounds like a plug, but I think you would benefit from my Bowl Gouge Mastery course, and Tool Sharpening. I made these courses specifically to help you accelerate your skills. Check them out www.TurnAWoodBowl.com/courses All the best to you and Happy Turning!
Another great video, Kent.
Glad you enjoyed it. thanks and Happy Turning!
Thanks Kent for more great tips.
You are very welcome Gavin. Happy Turning!
Thanks, I learned so much from your videos.
Glad to help, Mike. Happy Turning!
I have watched almost all your videos as I have learned to turn. I quickly found that mortise turning with carbide tools works best for me. Your instruction on mortises was very important. Maybe it’s obvious, but I have found that second turning bowls that have dried with warped mortise or turning poor/damaged/ soft blanks won’t work. Reading the wood is most important. Thanks for the many lessons!
Thanks Steve and great points. All the best to you and Happy Turning! Kent
I wish you would have posted this yesterday! I was trying out my first mortise, thought I’d change it up as I always go for a tenon like yourself. The piece I was working on was mesquite and had some epoxy filling a ton of cracks.. figured it might hold a little better if I do a mortise. Luckily, as I tightened the chuck it snapped the bottom right off before I could even mount it on the lathe. I was able to salvage the bowl but ohh man. I feel lucky that thing didn’t come flying at me.
Absolutely love the education you provide on your channel! First woodturner I’ve found that you can actually learn something from.
Thank you kindly, Collin! Well, today is a new day and NOW you do have the info. ;) All the best to you and Happy Turning!
Kent great do not do demo. From early on in your videos you have demonstrated the proper way to make a 4 jaw chuck joint. Love your channel.
Thanks, Kevin 👍 Happy Turning!
Good advice kent you would be surprised how many people don't read the instructions with the chuck. There are as many mistakes with the tenon .also and I hate to watch some youtuber try to educate people and they don't know themselves.. keep up the great advice.
Thank you, kindly! Happy Turning!
Good to see what not to do so it can be avoided. Thank you
Glad to help Bren. All the best to you and Happy Turning!
I set the partially finished bowl aside and took it to a club mentor. He explained why it had happened and we brainstormed ideas of how I could save the piece by mounting it to a waste block with high temperature construction adhesive. Not crafting hot glue, the stuff you build houses with. That worked really well but the walls got way too thin and I got a catch on the edge that split a chunk off the side. I'll send you a picture of it when I have the opportunity. So all that was my first attempt at turning cedar, of all things to try and use a recess with. 💯🤗
Archie, yeah cedar can be unforgiving. Be patient with it and you'll get it. Practice. All the best to you and Happy Turning!
@@TurnAWoodBowl thanks for all the awesome and educational content. This channel has been one of my most utilized tools for learning.
I just got into turning bought a new chuck turning Philippine mahogany very soft cut mortis with nice dove tail blew the side of the mortis out. Seems like you have to vary width of shoulder with type of wood thanks for great video but one done correctly would be nice
00:11:20(that was exactly like first recess I ever made. 😂 I learned my lesson though 👍 now I'm always sure to leave enough material on the outside. I've been working hard to get my dimensions correct for all my chuck mounts.
Great job, Archie! If you learn from your mistakes, they become education instead. ;) All the best to you and Happy Turning!
I use recessed tenons quite often but the real thing for me is what the wood is telling me. I use a lot of burled wood and I deal with soft spots and often the recess allows me to work around a soft place in the wood. All of what you said is important, but I emphasize, read the wood.
Good points, Jeff. Happy Turning!
the last issue, lack of enough wood surrounding the mortise, is a similar problem with a tenon. Lack of dovetail is another similar tenon issue. Properly turned mortises are very safe and don’t waste wood. I don’t think all the issues presented were specific to a mortise.
Watch this "user." ;) ua-cam.com/video/L6hvtsAgTI0/v-deo.html
I use internal tenants at least 50% of the time. Fortunately, I am not having the problems that you demonstrated. I am also not turning as aggressively as you were. I prefer internal tenants for the simple reason. I do not have to waste as much of the turning blank that external Tenants require. Also, I think the hollow in the bottom is easier to achieve and looks better for many of the forms that I make.
Thank you for writing and sharing, Bill! Happy Turning!
the smaller Nova jaws are not dovetail shaped. Instead they are straight and have a slight lip for retention, so a small undercut is all they require. They intended for small pieces that don't have a lot of leverage or inertia though.
That seems like a fair assessment. Happy Turning!
Something that is never addressed (that I have seen) is the condition of the chuck jaws, namely the angle between the face and side of the jaws. If that angle is rounded over instead of being crisp and fairly sharp, the ability of the jaws to hold inside a mortise will be compromised.
Case in point: the serrated jaws for a Oneway Stronghold chuck do not have a pure dovetail on the outside diameter. Instead, there are two slightly raised rings that are intended, I suppose, to be pressed into the wood to give the grip. This is not the best design, in my opinion. The point is to examine your chuck jaws carefully so that you know for sure what you are working with.
I have a principle (not always adhered to!) of using mortices on cross-grain and tenons on endgrain. The only problem I had so far is that a tenon on a crossgrain broke off, dropping the workpiece (fortunately not flying). I think the texture/hardness/integrity of the wood also have a say in the choice. Nice video! Perhaps you should do the same thing about tenons. Please forgive my grammar - English/American is not my first language. Kind regards from South Africa (the land with the very hard woods.)
Hennie, Thank you for writing and sharing! That principal sounds pretty good. Harder woods can be turned either tenon or mortise. But you are correct, end grain should usually be a tenon to clamp the grain fibers together and hodl them well. All the best to you and Happy Turning in South Africa! Kent
I work mainly with Paulownia wood and it is a soft wood. Which would be better to use with this a mortise or a tenon? Ive only turned one bowl but the man who was helping me was super concerned about the strength of the wood holding with a tenon. any advice would be appreciated
Good question, Elizabeth. The choice really should be based on the design on the bowl and the desired final appearance. If you have a relatively wide space that can accept a recessed mortise, and you are fine with an indentation in the final piece, a mortise is fine. If you'd like a custom shaped final foot and/or you have a smaller base area, the tenon is a good idea. I hope that helps. All the best to you and Happy Turning!
Kent, I find that if the mortise is of the right size and shape but the wood is soft like pine I reinforce the mortise with some thin ca glue to stiffen the fibers and it will seldom fail unless there is a bad catch. Also don't tighten the chuck to the point is can break the mortise.
Good idea. Thank you for writing and sharing! Happy Turning!
My chuck does not have a dove tail, it is square with ridges. I have a small lathe not enough power to get a catch and break the mortise. I can even have the lathe stop if I push too hard with an aggressive cut. Most of the time I use a tenon on the bottom of bowls, just so I have better chance of not joining the 'funnel club.
LOL, Thank you for writing and sharing, Ray. Yeah, good club to avoid, or at least miss regular meetings. ;) Happy Turning!
Good demo of mortise fails…BUT…why wouldn’t you demo a properly made mortise? Just sayin’.
0:27
He showed a link to 3 way to make a mortise. You can watch that.
You might want to pursue a different hobby 🙄
Kent doesn't like inside mortices..... period. It's all I use. I grew up in a machine room environment. You plan your work accordingly. In woodworking, NOT using an inside mortise on the bottom of a bowl is frankly stupid, especially with the new chucks available now. Plus, it gives you the chance to grab a bowl after the fact an throw a quick cleanup and polish if you need.