it is very important not to acquire the wrong pronunciation in the beginning, because you will get used to it. It will then be very difficult to unlearn it again
I'm in that boat. I'm doing Duolingo, been doing that for the past 2.5 years or so. I didn't learn the pronunciation and I realized that I kept on getting confused. Duolingo really improved their platform since I started and now I'm relearning all the pronunciation. For a while I thought everybody was just lying. I also am slow with second languages. It's always been like that. I also quickly forget what I've learned so it's a real struggle for me.
@@deutsch.direkt That’s what I was taught when I was learning German in the Goethe-Instut, Dublin. Those teachers could have taught the Department of Education in Ireland so much about how to teach Irish properly in schools. They were excellent. 😊
I started learning Gaelainn again during the pandemic. I deliberately focused on Cork Irish as I have family connection to Gaeltacht Mhúscraí. I quickly learned that the channels you mentioned (except AnLoingseach ardfhear is ea é ) were not going to help me. I was horrified (and embarrassed as I am a Primary Teacher) when I learned about the caol/slender sounds. We were not taught them in school (only the spelling rule no phonology). I ONLY listen to native speakers mostly from Múscraí or Corca Dhuibhne now (or highly competent academics). I listen to Saol Ó Dheas, documentaries on the Munster Gaeltachtaí and I speak to a native speaker twice a month. I have attended the odd Ciorcal Comhrá and gotten the odd strange look when I speak. One woman thought I was from Cork (I'm actually a Dub😂). The native speaker I speak with told me that the way I'm learning the language shows the respect I have for it and also for the Gaeltacht. I practice shadowing aswell. This has really helped with words like 'suí' or 'dhún mé'. It's not 'may' as we learned it in school! I've talked with a lot of Gaelscoil teachers (I teach in an English medium school) and ex-students. They make no distinction between caol and slender sounds. For example 'b' in 'bó' and 'beag'. It's sad as the musicality (I love the slender r) of the language is lost without the correct sounds..
I'm in same boat but with Corca Dhuibhne connections. I will say though in Ciorcal Comhrás around my area (suburban Dublin) people are very familiar with Gaelainn and even sometimes speak its verb forms, expressions etc
As a person going through the education system in the Gaeltacht, Gaeltacht Mhúscraí, I can confirm that the way Irish is taught is pretty poor. The closest you get to being able to build communication skills and understanding dialects and just Irish faster and better is Cluastiscints and the Oral tests but apart from that there is little to no support. Lots of focus is placed on Grammar, Essay's, Blogs etc. Basically WRITING Irish which is very important, No denying that, but after you go through the education system you're still left with such little understanding and it's hard to communicate AND UNDERSTAND because of the different pronunciation's and dialects and also just the sounds of the language. I can't speak on behalf of T2 schools, Outside of the Gaeltacht, but in a T1 school It's not the best right now. Thanks for sharing your insight, was really helpful.
@@Peru-fc3bi I love the Munster dialect too. I learned it in Primary school. I know it’s a year since your post but I’m wondering how do you or your friend rate the pronunciation of Munster Irish in the website, Teanglann? What’s your opinion?
Thanks for making this video. I’ve been trying to learn Irish and I’ve had the sneaking suspicion that all the UA-cam channels I can find are non-native Irish speakers. I’d really love it if there was someone like a French mornings with Elisa but for Gaeilge.
American interested in languages here. I wonder why so many Irish people don't want to be told their pronunciation of Irish is wrong? Is it because they feel like since they live in Ireland, they should automatically know their country's original language? I don't see learners of any other language be this resistant to being corrected.
1) Irish is mandatory in all schools at both primary and secondary level. We don’t automatically know it, we study it. 2) There are three dialects of Irish and multiple accents within each dialect. Who decides what is “correct” pronunciation? Peig Sayers from the Blasket Islands in County Kerry (south) sounds completely different to someone from Gweedore in County Donegal (north). Both are valid. 3) Irish is an ancient language. There is no “authority” governing pronunciation. The best you can do is establish a standard set of rules which allows us to understand each other while, at the same time, respecting and preserving local pronunciations in the Gaeltacht areas. 4) Irish is the first language of the State according to Bunreacht na hÉireann (Irish Constitution) _and_ an official language of the EU. As such, it belongs to _all_ citizens of Ireland - not just those in the Gaeltachtaí. If somebody wants to speak Irish with a strong inner city Dublin accent, that’s their prerogative. It’ll sound woeful but it sounds woeful in English anyway. 😂. We don’t know what original Irish sounded like in Dublin but we can be reasonably certain it didn’t sound like Cork! Come to think of it, as the Vikings founded Cork City (and then hung around for centuries making the place look untidy), Cork probably doesn’t sound like Cork. And don’t get me started on Kerry and Limerick where the Normans turned up and started a craze for the French “r”. 5) Finally, according to your own logic, as you’re American, your pronunciation of the English language is abysmal and your spelling leaves a lot to be desired. It sounds nothing like Old English, Middle English or modern English anywhere in England. In fact, it seems like the original language has strangely morphed … because apparently some Americans have spent the last couple of hundred years tinkering, willy-nilly, with it! Tsk tsk tsk!!! 🤣😂🤣👍🇮🇪
@@marcellomancini6646 Great! By your logic *everyone* in Ireland _obviously_ is a native speaker because we all know *how* to speak Irish from at least the age of four - all five million of us (unless you’ve grown up abroad or have a disability)! You cannot compare Ireland to Italy. Irish is the premier official language of Ireland. Therefore, all official documents, passports, driving licences, social security, road signs, etc. are in both Irish and English, and Irish is mandatory in both primary and second level schools (12 years approx) nationwide. Italian is the premier official language of Italy. Italian children do _not_ learn all the “smaller languages” for 12 years in every single school across Italy. Italian official documents nationwide do _not_ include a translation into *every* one of the “smaller languages” and somehow I doubt (but I could be wrong) that an Italian citizen has the right to go into any government building or court anywhere in Italy and insist on conducting business entirely in one of the “smaller languages”. _Mise le meas,_ 😊
@@Clodaghbob You do not learn a native language at school, nobody ever did that and it will never happen, it's too late to be a native language and nobody actually got fluent by "studying it", you are supposed to use it as a primary language, which happens mostly in like a couple towns in Ireland. Also by your logic every Italian is an English native speaker since I was learning it from 2 years old in school.
Edit to add: I want to make it clear first and foremost that I think your criticism is totally valid! It wasn’t quite clear enough in my original comment. Unfortunately there are very few sources for learning Irish in general, especially for us living outside Ireland, so honestly I still truly appreciate their commitment to helping revive the language. Part of the problem is that frankly it’s really difficult to learn pronunciation as an adult since your literal mouth muscles have to learn how to move in a new way. And some of the people you mentioned were not fortunate enough to have learned Irish from childhood. It is a huge privilege to be a native speaker of any language, and that privilege has been stripped from most Irish people. The fact that they care enough to spread enthusiasm for the Irish language is wonderful in and of itself, and I know at least Molly (who you listed) makes it clear on her social media that she has struggled with her pronunciation. So I think as long as they make their audience aware of their limitations, there isn’t an issue. Irish needs as many speakers as possible so we shouldn’t necessarily be putting anyone down for not being perfect. If their pronunciation or grammar is off and they act like there is no issue though, that is disingenuous and it’s valid for you to bring that to people’s attention.
Totally agree, Irish is morphing with the increase in second language speakers. An accurate pronunciation is a praiseworthy goal, but by building up your vocabulary and grammar, which these people help you to, do invaluably, you will also get more in tune with pronunciation. I don't think a historically accurate pronunciation is possible in the age of the Internet too, with dialects being mixed.
I left a similar comment, the language is essentially dead in the six counties outside of homes and a few select clubs / bars / annual events partially because natives / fluent speakers won't speak to anyone else. I think at this stage in the language's recovery, the most important thing is simply that it is spoken at all and people who are trying to encourage that should be supported.
The solution? Only request the service of teachers of any language who actually know the language. To quote Megatron, from the beginning of this video: Am I asking too much?
@@patchy642 Not at all. I think competent teachers who can speak Irish using Irish sounds - who actually know the language - is the basic minimum. It's not asking too much at all.
@@patchy642Dia dhuit Patchy. I'm from Cork boy! I was a part of a crew doing a program for TG4 in the early 2000s. We filmed mainly in Wesht Cork and some days on Inis Oir. Because I was surrounded by native Munster speakers all day every day, I noticed a distinct difference in their accent versus that which I was taught at school. What enthralled me the most was that they would begin their (past tense) sentences with "Do", and they would use "eas/íos" at the end of the verb to denote "I" did rud éigin ie "Do choimeadas", agus "Do chuireas" / "Do cheannaíos". Níl a fhios agam cén fáth, but I fell in love with it. The "Do" seems ubiquitous, but I feel it gives the description of their action increased emphasis, like making an announcement. One could just say "Chuir mé" or even "Chuireas", but it's like the "Do" gives the listener a moment to anticipate that an important verb is going to be said, so that they 'tune in' better, as it were. It's like an increased efficiency by utilising psychological knowledge of folks tuning in and tuning out, and back in again. I could be wrong. I could be entirely wrong! Am I wrong? Anyway, I don't know, sorry for the long ramble to you now, but I absolutely really fell in love with that, and began to realise that we have changed a lot of the organic language, the genuine article, in arrogance, in the last century. Considering that it was a century where we had the least amount of authentic Gaeilge ever spoken, it was an act of arrogance. When I began to delve, I discovered that there has been a lot more, literally 'vandalising' of our language in 'modern' times. So overall, is rud an-dheas é to come across an expert who actually gives a damn about *authenticity* and righteous conservation. Go raibh míle if you have read all of this, and sorry for the rant. Slán go fóil ó Corcaigh. ☘☘🇮🇪🇮🇪
Mícheál Ó Siabhail's book, 'Learning Irish' gives a very good breakdow of Irish's sounds, with its unique broad and slender *consonants* (!) It comes with recordings of the sounds and scripts (Connacht Irish). [Edited to correct the book's title.]
I've got the book, purchased 30 years ago at the North Texas Irish Festival, but the audio portion has long passed into the sunset. Any possibility of finding the audio on the internet?
@hermessanhao I may have got the name wrong, I see 'Learning Irish' available online. It still comes with a set of audio recordings. It seems reasonably priced, inasmuch as it's a really thorough book - an education! I can't imagine where you'd get the original audio recordings separately - could write to the publishers, I suppose? But by the time you paid for them and the delivery charges, it may be not be worth the effort!
@@hermessanhao yes, I found these recordings in mp3 format online. There's a torrent file called "Irish Gaelic (Gaeilge) Language Learning Pack" that's been up for years, it contains the audio files for this book.
@@hermessanhaoSo did I but in Germany 26 years ago. No recordings were attached but I've found them on twirpx. I was hoping to have time to learn it thoroughly but unfortunately I was only able to go through several lessons. Therefore I was quite surprised not to hear any of the 'soft' sounds in online lessons. Now I know why. Irish on Duolingo sounds 'hard' as well, doesn't it?
I'm English, and my Nan was from Ireland, so I've always wanted to learn the language. I'm glad I decided to do some research and found you and AnLoingseach before I started (I always thought the Anglophone accented Irish sounded weird, and that it couldn't be correct). I love the way that you ripped into these people, it's hilarious! XD
Aw, you're very kind. I'm going to ask you a favour that I often ask my Mainland friends, to please edit your commentary above, changing the word "but" for "and", to reflect a more positive, realistic and practical mindset. People try to push the idea that "Irish" and "English" is somehow a contrast. No. It's a symbiosis, with a 90% overlap. Does that make sense to you?
@@patchy642 Aww, thank you! That's very sweet of you! ^^ I've edited my comment based on your advice! It makes me happy to hear that you feel that way! I think the peoples of our nations are very similar (and have been for thousands of years), and even though not everything has gone great between us, that's kinda like most families ^^; Btw, what are some good resources for listening to authentic native Irish Gaelic? Sorry if you've answered this before. I've just been listening to some of your videos, and the way the language sounds is so beautiful and unique to me. I really like it! But it's so different from what I've usually heard (from non-native speakers, I assume) so I was wondering if there were any radio stations or podcasts or musicians that you could recommend (I usually like to listen to a language for a while, to become familiar with its cadence, before jumping into learning it properly) ^.^ Go raibh maith agat!
@@rambleswolf As I put in the description notes of this video, the following link is of surely the best available sound archives for mostly Mayo and some Galway Gaelic: archive-cartlann.turassiar.ie/p/press/search?source=nav
Good point. I started it with great enthusiasm but quickly dropped it. Can't remember now exactly why, but it was something to do with the mechanised curbing of the language, "Pigeon Irish" I found myself thinking.
It used to be brilliant, with a native Connemara Irish speaker. They got rid of her and now have terrible speakers who cannot pronounce a single sound that doesn't occur in English.
The guy in the video is Metatron. His real name is Raffaello Urbani and he is Italian, from Sicily to be precise. He speaks a perfect standard Italian and is highly trained in Classic Latin. Also, he is an expert of Ancient Japanese culture.
Go raibh míle míle maith agat a Phatchy as ucht an ardmholadh sin (bíodh sé tuillte nó nach mbíodh!) Dá mbeinn fhéin i mbun an liosta áfach chuirfinn An Loingseach romham fhéin, is saoi gan locht é, má tá a leithéid ann. Duine éicint eile atá go hiontach ó thaobh canúineolaíochta de ná an Dr Andrea Palandri agus tá físeán nó dhó de ag mionscrúdú na gcanúintí stairiúla muna bhfuil siad feicthe agat. Bhí mé (agus bím i gcónaí) thar a bheith graitheach faoi láthair ach tá dúil agam cur síos a dhéanamh ar na canúintí ar fad sa gcéad fhíseán eile a dhéanfas mé. Beannachtaí na féile ortsa a Phádraig agus Feliz Navidad cér bith cén áit ina bhfuil tú. Seánfaidh mé é seo do Phap thiar ar an gCartúr chomh maith
Go maire tú, a chomrádaí. Muise, ní raibh dada cloiste agam riamh faoin dochtúir Palandri, bail ó Dhia air. Tá mé tar éis cluas a thabhairt dó anois, agus is fíorshuimiúil a fear é, dearfa. Tá mé ag súil go mór le d'fhíseán sin, nár laga Dia do lámh, a Dazpatreg. Nollaig mhór shona duit, a chara. Le gach dea-ghuí, Páidín.
Pronunciation is certainly something I've struggled with while learning Irish. I'd be interested to know, though, @patchy642 how much of this comes down to dialectal differences? It's well established that a lot of the early 20th century teaching of Irish was monopolised by the Munster dialect. To my ear the palatal R used by many Munster speakers is very slight by comparison to Connemara speakers.
No. None of this comes down to dialectal differences. I'm simply calling out teachers who pronounce the sounds wrong, constantly and repeatedly. Either they're right or they're wrong. It's not a dialect thing. Correct speakers, be they from Munster or Connemara, or wherever, when they pronounce the palatal R, it's palatal. If it's not, then they're not. So I must conclude that your ears are wrong, or, more likely, those people they've listened to are speaking the sounds wrong. That said, correct Gaelic pronunciation isn't very difficult for a native speaker of English, as long as he or she makes a minimum effort. Chinese pronunciation, for example, now that's difficult. Or as I mentioned in the video, Siamese pronunciation. But still they're usually learned correctly, because all the teachers of such languages speak them correctly, and the student simply needs to learn to listen to and imitate the teachers' speech. Teachers who repeatedly say these very sounds wrong should desist, go work at something else, at least until they learn to say them right. This is simple.
@@patchy642 It's quite possible that my ears aren't as well tuned to it as perhaps they should be. Still, I find that it's much more pronounced in the other dialects. Or, perhaps a better way to describe it is to say it has more sibilance. There are a few great examples of what I mean in this video clip from TG4: (ua-cam.com/video/CPDtgAk8GKQ/v-deo.html). It seems very slight in "Blúire mór páipéir" (0.33), "oiriúnach" (0.35), "díreach é" (0.52 and 1.14), "gurb í an bhrí" (1.04), "riomhré" (1.26), "uirthi" (2.07), "Abairt" (2.20), "Cén bhrí atá leis?" (2.27), "Abair" (2.37), etc. I can certainly hear it other times, though, for example, "báire" (1.11), and maybe "uirthi" (2.04), but these clearer ones seem to be the exception.
@@AdrianODubhghaill Ah, indeed, well spotted. These men, like most young speakers in the Munster Gaeldoms, for the most part probably never grew up speaking the language, but rather just observing it, that is they learned it by hearing the older generation speaking it, but spoke amongst themselves in English, often about things they saw and knew of only in English, on the television, Harry Potter or whatever. Therefore when they finally decided to speak it when already in their teens, they often don't notice enough to make the effort to incorporate all its sounds, but rather unknowingly swapping out the closest phonemes from their fully native English, or knowingly, because that's what they'd now started to hear spoken on the same television, now that the Gaelic (quasi-Gaelic, really) station had started. Hector and whoever. This phonemic decline usually happens with every dying language, the degree depending on each speaker. The exact same phenomenon, with the same R phonemes, was noticed among the generation of the last Gaelic speakers in Kintyre, in Scotland, just before that dialect fully expired. Now, while this also happens in other areas, in places like Connemara where it's still strongly spoken as a community language, the young speakers have enough peers who also speak correctly, that they notice it, and therefore either decide to refrain from speaking Gaelic at all, or to actually learn to say the sounds as their more versed companions do, to soon become fully proficient. If you listen to any Munster Gaelic from when it was still spoken as a full, exclusive community language you'll hear all the sounds in all the right places. The word "uirthi" is an exception, as it would more phonetically have been allocated the spelling "orthai", I presume in all dialects, just like its governing preposition should conversely have been allocated "oir", and indeed that's how that great UA-camr and scholar An Loingseach spells it, while the rest of us are stuck with the non-phonetic standard spelling it currently has: "ar". Also, the words "roimh ré" (which you wrongly spelt as one word) use the broad R, as the initial is never pronounced slender, even if written slender, something similar to a rule in Spanish where an initial R is always pronounced as a double R. If only An Loingseach would make a video or two speaking fully in Gaelic, you'd surely have the right samples to hear all the correct sounds in full Kerry dialect. Until he does, you've probably got to mostly rely on much older speakers, or the many recordings from the last century. One good source of them is a Gaeldom Radio podcast called "Cartlann Bhóthar Na Léinsí", available on their website and on the app, old recordings of lots of excellent speakers of many dialects of Munster Gaelic.
In America we are not trying to speak English the same way our grandfather spoke it. This mindset is totally backwards. Go to TG4 and watch the documentary about TG Lurgan - The Irish summer school where they make music videos for UA-cam. Listen to the 16 year old kids speaking what this guy would consider “terrible irish” To me this irish is beautiful. Much nicer to listen to than this angry old man. If there is to be a future for irish it will sound like what you will hear on that documentary. Not the blabber that is coming out of this old man’s mouth. Mol an Óige agus tiocfaidh sí
I'm a learner myself and have watched two of the three channels you mentioned. I already had my suspicions which were confirmed when you called the speakers out: people who use their Hibernian English accents to pronounce Irish. Go raibh mile maith agat a Phatchy.
It would be great if you did a video on how the Irish education system spreads the false notion that Irish Gaelic is pronounced like Hiberno-English and how fake Irish speakers have hijacked the language on UA-cam!
It's quite bewildering to notice that when you show native Irish speech to people with ZERO knowledge about the language, they immediately hear the correct pronounciations and are able to mimick them, eg. "Tír Chonaill" Whereas these "teachers" or "native speakers" in the worst case might pronounce it like "Taor Conall"
I really commend your approach here as otherwise no one would ever know the wiser. It seems to me, it's as though European Second Language learners of English started teaching people that [z] was an acceptable pronunciation of the 'th' sound in English, and that was then cascaded to 90% of learners in schools.
One thought though. Just flicking through their channels, one thing they are probably doing a bit better (based on a cursory review), is the marketing / style piece. While I'm at awe at An Loingseach and love his content, the only other people I've shown his videos to who liked it were fellow language nerds like myself. While his knowledge is outstanding, he has less appeal for the average learner. I suggest that if you or AnLoingseach or a few others joined forced to make more shorts, etc, it could make a serious dent in what the other channels are doing, as unfortunately they do seem to be winning the battle when it comes to views and subscribers ... alas :( What are your thoughts?
@@liammelia6843 Thank you. You're very kind. Yes, I'm not very savvy when it comes to social media. Many have said I should do more short videos. Only today I was watching a video by An Loingseach, enthralled by his wisdom and delivery. He rambled along, branching off on loads of almost random tangents, and I was lapping it up, often nodding along in agreement, sometimes muttering in disagreement, thoroughly enjoying it. But he and I are from I guess a generational mindset from the times before catchy soundbites, and we're not used to this more modern fast and furious delivery that optimises every second. We do tend to ramble on, which those who understand enough to enjoy such subject matter appreciate, but that's not everyone, as you say. So yes, I do hope to modernise my approach and organise some short snippets. I'm hoping An Loingseach will come here for a visit some day, to see who most bamboozles who. Have you watched any of Dazpatreg's rambles? Quality!
Yeah, I think that could be the next step required to really spread the word to be honest. I also lap up An Loingseach's videos and I'll happily watch him speak about Indo-European etymology or pronunciation of extinct dialects. But people in my family who are less into their linguistics than I am cannot fathom who I can sit through an hour and half of phonetics, interspersed with interminable tangents and sidetracks. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that while a certain audience loves these videos, those are probably mainly purists or people really into their linguistics, and not perhaps the average learner who's thinking of picking up their Irish again after a hiatus. I haven't watched any of Dazpatreg but I've subscribed now to his channel, and bookmarked a few of the other resources that you shared, so I look forward to watching his stuff!
Greetings. How do you do. I am interested in learning Irish in essence. Thank you very much for your assurance in sincere guidance. Go raibh maith agus.
For a while I was trying to learn Irish - then I realized (on top of not having much luck at getting a good enough handle on the grammar) that a learner learning from learners is pointless in terms of keeping the language alive in a meaningful way. I had 'teach yourself complete Irish,' Buntus Cainte, and every other 'official' or academic lessons I could find, and even some of those sounded janky ('teach yourself complete Irish' seemed to have one horribly novice speaker) when compared to the hosts and callers I regularly listened to on RnaG, nevermind the otherworldly experience of trying to grasp or emulate the bona fide native speakers in RTÉ recordings from decades ago. The only question I would have regarding "these people pronounce it all wrong" would be: where I live we pronounce it /watər/, but some English speakers say /wada/ and yet others say /waʔə/ but we're all talking about H2O, so which one of us would be teaching a learner the 'wrong' pronunciation?
on your last point, id say its like if someone from china learned english from 5 different teachers, one scottish, one american, one scouse, one georgie, one australian - they might learn to speak and understand english fluently, but they would have a strange and inconsistent mix of pronunciations which would make them hard for other people to understand them
The difference is that those are all valid native pronunciations. None of them are 'wrong'. But pronouncing it /vəˈtɛːʁ/ or something would sound very wrong to any native speaker.
Hi patchy I only realised after watching this my own pronunciation was poor as I realised I had 0 dialect.Whats the best way to learn these pronunciations
@@NeeloMack It's not a matter of dialect. These pronunciations should be present and correct irrespective of whether speaking with a regional dialect, or simply with normal, official standard Gaelic. Italki is always one of many good options for learning the correct sounds of a new language, in my opinion.
I first started with Lurgan. I then discovered Learn Irish Now. I later went to BiteSize Irish. I am curious. Is it possible that you focus on Connemara and they focus on other dialects? I know BiteSize Irish is in Munster and Molly is in Ulster. I am partial to Munster, being a Donovan, however I acknowledge BiteSize does sound unusual at times, to me.
No, not at all. I'm speaking about all dialects. (I don't know what made you think I'm speaking about or for Connemara Gaelic. If I'm honest, it's probably the variety that least appeals to me, as I find it quite strange and quirky, very different from all other varieties in many ways.)
When refering to dialectal variation you are refering to variation that arises among native speakers in different areas typically. This here is just mispronunciation by learners, (e.g. mispronouncing spanish año as ano...) This seems to be a point of significant confusion and misconception among Irish learners.
I'm glad I came across your videos early on. I'm a new learner from the US (I started just under a month ago), and I'm planning to visit the country in a few years. I hope to learn enough of the language by then to stop by a Gaeltacht while I'm there. I've been watching along with your videos as Gaeilge and mimicking your way of speech; it's very helpful, especially when I hear words that I already know and can apply the pronunciation to that. Especially the caol R. I'm excited that I'm now able to pronounce that and pick it out from spoken words. Go raibh míle maith agat, a Phatchy!
You're very kind. Yes, speaking with the correct Gaelic sounds is a gesture you'll find appreciated when you get to visit Gaeldom, as we're so weary of people coming to showcase us their Gaelic while blatantly pronouncing it so wrong, so different to how native speakers talk, and we often think (and I for one sometimes say . . .) "Why, upon hearing me say this word, maybe several times, do you then go ahead and respond saying it so differently? Why can't you just listen and imitate how we say it ?!". Feel free to leave a comment in Gaelic on one of my Gaelic videos, and I'll respond. Best wishes, Patchy.
Because of the scarcity of materials on Irish, I reluctantly still go to the sources that you criticized and others that mess up pronunciation, keeping in mind that their pronunciation is worthless. But I do this on the assumption that the grammar and spelling that they teach is largely correct. But I wondered if I was mistaken about that. Do the channels that you criticized for teaching the wrong pronunciation make significant mistakes in teaching the grammar and/or the spelling? If they do, I might avoid them entirely.
@@paulbustion1291 I wish I could answer in the affirmative, but unfortunately their lack of use of the language is often evident in their speaking of it, and as they speak much more in English, evident in their English translations of Gaelic. Have you seen my appraisal of one of their recent offerings on my last short on here?
I'm italian. I decided to start learning Irish almost a year ago. I bought a grammar: no mention of the phonology. I started looking up on YT and every channel I found had a different pronunciation. I was going crazy, but now I understand that the pronunciation is a common problem. Anyway, what do you think of the youtube channel "The Irish Exile"?
I've just had a look now at The Irish Exile, and, again, it WOULD be great content if only the poor fellow knew the correct pronunciations, but I guess like most, he learned the sounds from somebody who never pronounced them correctly, but probably assured him they're correct, so, despite his clear belief that it's fine, his pronunciation is abysmal, getting the usual phonemes completely wrong. Sorry.
@@patchy642 no problem at all! Actually, thank you for being so quick! I started learning from his channel, but quickly left it as it felt forced and - again - completely different compared to other speakers. Your video was so helpful, I now feel more confident in what I'm doing :)
@@patchy642 I always got the impression that Irish Exile never professed to be perfect and that he's trying to give you perfect pronunciation, though I can understand why this annoys you, as a teacher. I've watched a number of his videos and the me it is more to learn the structure of the language, some basic vocabulary, and that, as you mention in your description, that certain combinations of letters that in English would be pronounced completely differently I need to treat differently when approaching Irish. As for pronunciation I don't think you can ever learn to speak a language without speaking with those that ideally speak it natively, or second best have spent time speaking it with native speakers and immersed themselves in the language so I agree with you, I don't think this course is meant as anything more than an introduction to the language and I'm not sure it professes to be anything else, but I could be wrong. I will check out the channels you mention with the correct pronunciations to see if their videos are easy to continue my learning with. I've had issues with Bitesize in other languages as well, I think the channel owner has a concept, good branding, talks as though he authoritative when he's not.
This reminds me of when I moved from Louth and my teachers really didnt care about Irish teaching, to Galway. My teacher was from Connemara. I hadn't a clue what was going on for a while lol
I'm seconding another comment to record a video of yourself speaking Irish and uploading it to Wikitongues. All the videos there are of second-language speakers who collapse the broad-slender distinction. (One of them even is a teacher!)
One of them is a Corca Dhuibhne speaker, I believe, and she does speak Kerry Irish in the video (though her pronunciation has very recognizable English influence, it’s definitely not the same sound as eg. Pádraig Ó Fiannachta’s recordings…). But yeah, out of *all* the recordings in Wikitongues, there is *one* competent Irish speaker.
I've just been informed that they've finally uploaded a video I gave them months ago of me speaking Gaelic. At first they thought it must be some other language, as it didn't sound ''Irish'' enough for their expectations: wikitongues.org/languages/gle/
Thanks for making this known, ive been browsing around Gaeilge teachers and ive heard them pronouncing things differently. The difficulty in acquiring real Gaelic makes me wonder if there is a deeper agenda….
It's not just different dialects, as happens in all countries, but there seems to be an ill-judged effort to homogenise everything! On the surface, this standardisation seems practical, but one would be extremely brazen to deny that standardisation automatically loses uniqueness and authenticity. At this point in my life, I'm so tired of everything presented as "being easier": it's like an ethos of convenience at ANY cost.
Thank you so much for this video. I was about to subscribe to one of these services because they had a pronunciation course. I have wanted to learn Irish for the longest time. Better not to start out with bad pronunciation habits.
Im not a fluent speaker myself but i know a decent amount and would say my pronunciation is decent. I see alot of people making alot of mistakes. I see people pronouncing ch as a k quite alot. Not pronouncing the slender r correctly, pronouncing dh/gh as a regular g etc. Tbf these sounds arent common in english per se, but they arent particularly hard to make as an english speaker either. The grammar in irish can be very challenging but imo the pronounciation is by far the EASIEST part of it.
Thank you for this video. I have always felt that proper pronunciation is a very important part of learning a language and finding UA-cam channels with proper Irish pronunciation is a hard task.
Go maire tú, a Róise. Bhí tintreacha iontacha againn ins na sléibhte, is fíor, ach tá siad múchta anois, faraor. Cad chuige nach bhfuil dada curtha amach agat ar UA-cam ó shin? Cén scéal eile agat, a thaisce? Tabhair aire.
@@patchy642 Haigh, a chara! 👋 😊 Bhuel, shocraigh mé sos a ghlacadh ó físeáin a dhéanamh go dtí mí na Samhna is dócha. Bainim úsáid as an am chun léamh agus cleachtadh gach lá agus Tá mé ag éisteacht go mór le Raidió na Gaeltachta chun mo chuid foghraíochta a fheabhsú. Tá liosta tosaithe agam fosta de gach focal a chloisim le “r caol” cosúil le y-fhuaim ann! 😃
@@irishwithrosie2007 your videos are great, and wondered where you had gone myself. Glad to hear you are still around and thinking of making videos again in the near future!
I am no expert on pronunciation, but I can say they have really good content that is nice to watch. Much much more interesting than the good pronunciation sites you mentioned, though I watch and enjoy their videos too. Maybe if there is a way to bring good speakers together with better content and better quality videos, we would all benefit.
I started learned Irish about a year ago now, (on and off) but I’m starting to really get serious with it. I noticed that tools like Duolingo, most Irish UA-cam channels only show words and phrases, how to pronounce them (badly). Yes it’s good to know the meeting of words, but, my biggest strategy right now is just learning the phonetic of it, so I can learn how to read Irish and pronounce it correctly before learning the words themselves. So far it’s my best strategy, I’m looking for Irish teacher but rn, I seem to be the only Irish speaker (not even remotely fluent) in my area, but thankfully there’s a university that offers a major or minor in Irish studies, so that’s progress!
Maith an fear. I also discovered recently that our 'modern' Irish has dropped the pronunciation of many consonants e.g. "maith" I think in Middle and Old Irish would have been pronounced moth-on (fear) with the 'th' being pronounced and liaised with the next vowel. Also, in classic Indo-European style, like the Italians and the Indians, we too used to roll the 'r'. I was baffled by this and had recently watched a short video featuring two young girls from about circa the 1930s, in Munster, and they gave all the 'r' sounds this whip-like twang. It made the Gaeilge sound very very rustic and 'old fashioned', but then I got to thinking: what is WRONG with us??? Why do we not view old, and long-established as AUTHENTIC?? And the reasons are our national insecurity which made us lambs for controlling by globalists with wicked intentions. Everything quintessentially Irish is mocked and scorned and called old fashioned, whilst other people's ancient cultures are celebrated as authentic. We truly have a fight on our hands for the identity of our people and the preservation of our GORGEOUS and unique culture, at which ár dteanga nádúrtha is é an rud IS tabhachtach.
@@Sionnach1601 I genuinely agree with what you said especially being scorned and mocked for anything Irish. It’s even such a deep insecurity with me that sometimes I catch myself mocking myself for my Irish traits. I roll my r’s for some Irish words (when I can because learning French first makes it very hard to roll my r’s but things like mná have that whip-like sound you described). It’s truly saddening when you realize just how much colonialism and also racism has affected our culture. Have you read the book “How the Irish became white” (idk who the author is) but it’s eye opening to our history with being (as a country) very anti-slavery but, so that Irish-Americans circa 1800s weren’t treated almost as bad as the slaves, they willingly chose to become white so they wouldn’t be as oppressed and I honestly understand that decision. But now, we’re grouped up with the oppressor kind of white population when we were oppressed, not the oppressors, and we fought against them just to be grouped up with them.
@@connyaaaa5555 Totally agree with everything there friend. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, eh? The only way to be in this World, is to be strong enough yourself so that regardless of the moral horse sh being bandied about, that you will always have the choice, because of your strength. I don't know if na hÉireannaigh have that strength yet: we have been a DREADFULLY pathetic cowardly race in the last many decades since our supposed liberation. The protests are really ramping up buíochas le Dia. Na hÉireannaigh will have to realise that they ARE ☘☘☘Éireannaigh.☘☘☘ I realised that at the age of 30, imagine that late? I was on Inis Oirr working for a few days. Bhí gach daoine ag caint as Gaeilge gach am, gach áit. Bhíomar sa teach tábhairne óiche amháin. Bhí ceol céilí, an deoch dubh, surrounded EVERYWHERE by Irish speakers. Then all of a sudden, I had this epiphany: with a surge I *FULLY* realised that I am Éireannach, something quite removed from every other group of peoples on the planet. Our own language, customs, song, long sad history, proud fallen heroes: I realised that I was Éireannach - agus tusa freisin a chara. Ní féidir le aon daoine eile a fheiscint cad atá a rá againn anois 😊☘☘🇮🇪🇮🇪
Hello and thanks a lot for this video! I'm super interested in phonetics and phonology, so I was so pleasantly surprised when I saw the video. I've had an interest in Gaelic for several years and have followed your channel for a few, but never got around to starting the process. Are you teaching on italki currently?
Yep. And I'm now a fan of your singing. I've a couple of Gaelic songs I wrote, but can't sing as my voice has no melody, so the sooner you master Gaelic, the better, to maybe get you singing them. ✨🎶✨🎵✨
Hi Audrey, conas atá tú. Greetings from Ireland. How is your Irish progressing. If you want some assistance I’ll help if I can. Wish you a nice weekend 👍🙏 Michael
The other problem I'm having is when I actually use websites or apps that are suggested by people who are helping others to learn the Irish language you can't use phrases of just anyway you want. It's like they never imagined someone would say a whole sentence that is very short. Like I eat or I learn or whatever. The whole thing makes one question themselves all the time whenever they're trying to learn any little bit of Irish language. To the point where I found this UA-cam channel and I'm willing to just throw out whatever I have learned so far just to relearn here because it doesn't feel like that much consistancy actually.
Maith thú a Phatchy! Tá tú tar éis mé a spreagadh físeanna a dhéanamh ag teaspáint gur fédir linne (na dhaoine nach bhfuil Gaeilge againn mar ár dteanga dúchais) í a fhuaimniú mar is ceart go héasca. An mbeadh comhairle ar bith agat dhom.
Nár laga Dia thú, a Chraic! Tá, doiligh, comhairle agam daoibh: an rud ceannann céanna a dhéanann foghlaimeoirí na Siamaise agus na hÚcráinise, is é sin cluas ghéar a thabhairt do chaint na gcainteoirí dúchasacha, agus aithris a dhéanamh orthu, agus gan mórán aird a thabhairt do dhaoine eile nach iad, mara bhfeictear go bhfuil bua na foghlama acu, an chaoi a bhfuil bua na foghlama ag leithéid Dazpatreg agus na daoine eile a luaigh mé leis, sárchainteoirí! Tugann Dave Learns Irish go leor leideanna maithe, chomh maith, agus Róisín i Meiriceá, agus is gearr go mbeidh siad beirt ina gcainteoirí chomh maith le duine ar bith, ach oiread leat féin, dar fia!
It’s pretty funny to me how Learn Irish was having a conversation in one of his comment sections where he was blaming the English for how we don’t speak Irish but then he doesn’t put in the effort to speak the proper language
Yeah you would think those learners who often speak Irish specifically as a sort of protest against the use of English would at least make an effort in learning the pronunciation of the language.
@@nathanheatley5401 I would say a mediocre job, still with tons of mispronunciations. Had she taken up my offer she'd have learned in three short sessions (all completely spoken in Gaelic, by the way) of less than one hour MUCH MORE than what she's learned in these last three years.
@@patchy642 cuireann sé sin díomá orm, ach tá sé ait go leor nach nglac sí an deis a thabhairt tú di :/... déan an t-iarracht arís agus b'fhéidir go mbeadh sí níos gabhála an t-am seo
Thanks for the video. Can you recommend material that includes phonetic spelling? I am used to learn the words with the phonetic word attached, in Germany we call it „Lautschrift“ and I think it makes the whole learning much easier. I could not find a dictionary or other material/apps/sites that use it. It would make it a lot better…
Is Irish like Welsh in that there's a huge gap between spoken and formal language, like a kind of diglossia? With Welsh there's a fairly informal register taught in school that's never really spoken anywhere, then there's the language as it would be used on for informal writing like on council leaflets or to read the news, then there's the true formal literary language. Lastly there's real dialect as it's actually spoken and the difference between the extremes is like the difference between "he ain't doing nothing" and "he doeth not any thing". Except the differences are more widespread and more extreme. Not just vocabulary, but grammar too with totally different forms. That's why I found Welsh hard and I never felt I got near to really speaking it, despite living in the Welsh version of a Gaeltacht for all my teenage years.
Irish shares some of those problems. When Ireland achieved independence the State adopted a rather conservative version of the language as a national standard. It was based on the literary standard from a few centuries earlier. The spoken language has developed into three distinct dialect groups. The earlier standard most resembled Münster Irish. In 1954 it was decided to revise spelling and propose a standard non-obligatory grammar. But it is artificial. The other problem is pronunciations where non-native speakers substitute Hiberno-English as Patchy points out.
A Pheaitsí, mar bhárr ar an ndonas, is cainnteóir dúchais Eóin ó Bitesize Irish, nú, an chuid is lú dhe, do bhí droch-Ghaelainn aige ón gcliabhán... b'fhéidir gurb in é cúis nár mhaith leis éisteacht leat - is dó' leis go bhfuil an t-eólas go léir cheana féin aige mar do tógadh le Gaelainn é, pé olc maith an Ghaelainn í.
Great video. I think I’ve said this before, but I would strongly, strongly recommend submitting a video of you speaking Irish to Wikitongues. It would be a great way to expose people to “real” Gaeilge. Duolingo is actually good at teaching proper pronunciation. The voice they use is a Connemara native with quite traditional pronunciation. Edit: I just checked, and they have replaced the native speaker on Duolingo with a learner who can't pronounce broad and slender consonants!
I'm on there now, they inform me, the video I sent them some months ago having finally been cleared. They at first thought they had the wrong language on it, as it didn't sound English enough for what they expected: wikitongues.org/languages/gle/
". . .was. . ." I bet you're pronouncing everything correctly now, right? Hey Dave! I'm honored you've responded. If there's still anything that needs tweaking in your Gaelic pronunciation, let's talk. If you're here in Tenerife, let's meet for a scoop or two, and I'll show and explain to you whatever needs tweaking, as we jubilate with a quart of Spanish wine, just like in the Gaelic folklore of old.
Tá ceist agam ( I have a question) I am hearing a lot about italky but is it something ok to try for those of us with minimal, limited or no speech? Like this is a servicee I really want to look into but I primarily communicate frogmouth typing but do need help learning to hear and process the word and also type better and the like
That's a good question. I presume most don't, but my method works best with absolute beginners. Really, the less of the target language you know, the more you will learn with me. Truly zero to hero in a few sessions. Plus it's fully immersive, and I provide all the vocab you'll need for the session, so it's quite easy. Don't hesitate. Maybe I should do a video explaining how easy and suitable for complete beginners my lessons are.
Really want to learn to speak Irish but I’m currently studying Spanish and Manderin. Want to fill my head with endangered language after I’m conversational in those but the problem with that is that while I’m studying the big ones endangered languages continue to die. Was thinking of picking up another alongside Irish when I do. Which should I pick that would mutually help with Irish? Should I just do Irish with full effort by myself? Also, I would like to learn about pre Catholicization Ireland and it’s religion.
What do you mean by a language that would mutually help with Irish? One similar to it? Because in that case you'd want Scottish or Manx Gaelic, note, Manx spelling is *very* different to Irish as it's based primarily on English and to a lesser extent, Welsh.
I was just came from gaeilge i mo chroí on her video about pronunciation (it was 2 years prior to this one)😢 I wanted clarification on the different sounds, goes to show i need more than one source to verify the information I've been given.
Thank you for this video. This is something I suspected a long time and it's good to hear. There is something uncanny about hearing a foreign language spoken with english phonetics, no matter the language. If you've ever heard someone speak a more widespread language with english phonemes you know the feeling. It's like Peggy Hill speaking spanish, not in using the wrong words which she does but in speaking it completely with English sounds. I'm glad some people are really preserving the language
@@sula1529 You didn't watch the whole video, right? I've talked about that channel in it. The pronunciation of that word varies with dialect, but with correct speakers the initial consonant is always slender. Many English-speaking learners of Gaelic pronounce it broad, being unaware of such differences.
Thank you for replying to me @@patchy642 I did watch it the whole way through I will have to watch again maybe I missed that part? In kerry we always pronounced it beg but I see she says bye so I m confused 😕 I am listening again and it seems that website has changed from irish in my heart to irish with mollie. I am probably learning loads incorrectly now 😔 I wonder are they coming up with a new slang gaeilge (modern version) of their own?
Go raibh míle maith agat, a Phatchy! Múinim an Ghaeilge d’Astrálaigh.Agus sin dúshlán ann féin! Tá an t-ádh dearg orm go bhfuil roinnt teangacha agam cheana féin, agus go dtuigim foghraíocht, a mhúinim trí Ghaeilge do mo rang tosnaitheoirí. Chuir mé lámhleabhar le chéile chun cabhrú le mo chuid daltaí.
i go to Gaeilge i mo Chroí for the words, not the sounds. I'm from America and want to learn a little Irish, maybe even raise my future-kids speaking it. The first time i went to Molly, I could tell she had not had the best teachers herself. One time, I watched this vlog by a Clisare person, speaking Irish during the entire episode, and she pronounced "ach" meaning "but" as "Ahk."🤨 It's wierd how English has the most inconsistant pronunciation in the WORLD, and English people struggle to pronounce ANYTHING from ANY other language. by the way, is "Gaeilge" pronounced "gale-guh" or "Gwale-guh" or does it vary? Go raibh maith agat!
_by the way, is "Gaeilge" pronounced "gale-guh" or "Gwale-guh" or does it vary?_ The word for the language varies by region. For example in Munster is Gaelainn and Gaeilge is the Connacht variant and I think it's Gaeilig in Ulster. To answer your original question though, is "Gaeilge" pronounced as "gale-guh" or "Gwale-guh" - it's neither. To explain - the initial G is broad and the the L is slender. The 'w' sound that you're perceiving arises, in this case, as a consequence of the movement from the broad G to the slender L. If you listen to Patchy at 13:12 you'll see his lips barely move as he says the word. Contrast this to the English 'w' where your lips almost come together.
@@davelearnsirish I always heard it as ga-ayl-guh or with a subtle "w" ~ gwayl-guh. Then I heard the lady on Pimsleur Irish say, "Goy-lainn" and I thought, "WTF ??" lol
The crazy thing is, I am not Irish, I am Dutch. But I could hear at once that most people speaking Irish are doing so with an English accent. Then I came across multiple videos of native Irish speakers and it became even more obvious how STARK of a difference, incredible. Actual Irish sounds nothing like most people have it taught.
The criticisms made in this video are entirely correct. But on the other hand Irish is not a widely spoken language and there are not that many materials to choose from, particularly outside of Ireland. I don't agree with the commenter who said that pronunciation does not matter, as long as one is understood. It does matter. It may not be practical to entirely bad sources in learning Irish. When a language is obscure and dying out one has to, to a certain extent, use whatever resources he can. I think that the best approach is to study the language with the sources available, keeping in mind with the poor ones that they are poor and that much incorrect information will have to be corrected later.
I'm learning 4 languages on Duolingo Irish being one of them I'm focusing more on German right now though, always willing to learn when I make mistakes... I think in a way if you're just learning a language, and you just want to learn the basics you're going to find and follow who ever you can learn from even if it's not necessarily the correct pronunciation... If you want proper pronunciation you're more likely to look deeper for people who teach the proper pronunciation... The first 3 you mentioned I actually follow, 2 of them I have unfollowed though, the others you mentioned I searched for and started following... Unwillingness to learn is a put off, Molly is the only one of the first 3 you mentioned I still follow, but her unwillingness to do better is a bit of a put off and the other 2 defo is a put off...
Yeah, we are talking about different levels: Someone just wants to learn the basics while someone wants to master the language and in the second case the right pronunciation does matter, of course
the reality is that the pronunciation errors are so bad amongst many of these people that you will not even acquire the basics, e.g. if you do not obey the broad and slender distinction there is no way to distinguish between leabhar and leabhair, i.e. you can't even tell if something is singular or plural not knowing basic pronunciation impairs other areas of the language, in essence if you don't know the simplest things about it then you don't know the language, really
@@aduantas Or "leabhar", "labhair" or "leabhair", it goes on forever. Thanks for pointing this out, as until you know about such dynamics it sounds like bad pronunciation would not matter, but as you point out my complaint is about these compromised dynamics of syntactic differentiation caused by omitting basic phonemes in natural speech, rendering it unnatural and compromising mutual comprehension between the interlocutors.
@@aduantas Absolutely! Maybe I didn't express what I meant by "basics", I think I rather meant that kind of Irish when the person doesn't even know (or doesn't care) that the pronunciation is bad, including someone who uses Duolingo, since the pronunciation in it in many cases is anglicized, too. Sadly, in our reality, someone who speaks English with a thick Russian accent is considered Russian, while someone who speaks Irish with a thick English accent is considered, well... Irish.
@@legonlavia I believe nowadays the Duolingo audio is a native Connacht speaker, in fairness. I think Duolingo is a useful adjunct to other learning methods (but not enough by itself)
My pronunciations in this video sound off to you? This video was done in English, you are aware, right? My pronunciation of English doesn't sound Munster to you? I don't see how that's relevant to anything, really. I don't quite know if you're praising or criticising me for not pronouncing my English like somebody from Munster. If I knew which I could maybe try harder to imitate maybe a Cork accent, not difficult, actually.
@@patchy642 ah calm down! You gave an example yourself with Muire! You really shouldn't be a teacher, your ego is to delicate. I wasn't saying your pronunciation wrong, just that the one you were saying was wrong sounded right to me 🤣
I believe we've discussed this in these comments already. "Irish Exile" does indeed have great visual, written content in his videos. The problem is the audio is incorrect, as his pronunciation is wrong. He's contacted me and now started taking some lessons, to hopefully redo the audio for all his videos. In the meantime I recommend you watch them with the sound silenced, or even go to the trouble of asking any proficient speaker you know to pronounce all the elements for you, maybe do you an audio for yourself. The Irish Exile videos for now are useful visually, for reading their content. The pronunciation on them, like nearly all Gaelic content currently on UA-cam, is abysmally incorrect.
My teacher is John Handy of Irish Language Learners Institute. Are you familiar with his work? I enjoy his classes, but I want to make sure I am getting a proper education. One concern is that he teaches "Dia is Muire dhuit" as the response to "Dia duit", as you mentioned. GRMA!
Thank you so much! I was raised in a bilingual household (English/Spanish) and therefore grasp the nuances necessary to express oneself successfully in different languages, as well as the need to be unafraid of exposure in order to learn. Irish is challenging in the US without immediate native speaking sounding boards. The last thing I want is to be learning goofy pronunciations. If I sound odd in a language, let it be because my syntax isn't fluid yet. I really appreciate that you not only dogged the bad influences out there but pointed learners in promising directions as well. You've got a new subscriber. I haven't been on Bite-size in months, I posted a comment that could not possibly be construed as offensive in any way and it was removed from their very lightly attended livestream. Also, I am very new but did notice among the channels you mentioned the vast discrepancy in pronunciation of even basic greetings, always casually written off to dialect. While I knew deep down dialects shouldn't be strong enough to affect base phonetics, (I find several languages fairly intelligible as a product of knowing Spanish, yet simultaneously can have trouble with a given Spanish accent. I think anyone who speaks languages can get that phenomenon.) I was trying to resolve that apparently Irish was just completely imprecise dependent on individual accent, or alternately so varied as to have non mutually intelligible dialects like that. Mystery solved. I'm oddly glad I had not become any more "knowledgeable" yet. Knowledge is power. Thanks again.
Can you explain your pronunciation of Muire? It sounds like you are saying "moyshuh". What is the rule that gives that pronunciation? I agree that the usual "murruh" is wrong. The 'r' should be rolled in my opinion as they do in Scotland.
Don’t worry about Patchy. He is far from “correct Irish” authority that he thinks he is. The way you are pronouncing Muire is fine There is a funny book called Béal Bocht. It’s a satire. In it an academic from Germany comes to the Gaeltacht looking for the “Best” Gaeilge - he ends up recording a piglet squealing and mistakes the piglet’ noises for “Authentic” Gaeilge So he brings the recording back to the best university in Germany and they give him an award for finding the best Gaeilge - before they set up a committee to try to see if they can gather any sense or meaning from the recording. It’s a satirical joke that Patchy could also be the butt of:. “He understood that good irish is difficult - and the best irish is nearly unintelligible” “Thuig sé go mbíonn an dea-Ghaeilge deacair agus an Ghaeilge is fearr beagnach dothuigthe. “ - Án Béal Bocht
I wondered about that one, too. I've grown up learning Connacht Irish (though we had a mixture of Leinster/Munster taught teachers so pronunciation wasn't always consistent in primary and secondary school), but it was always Muire - mwireh or mwirah depending on the teacher. It's the pronunciation I've heard in the Gaeltacht in Galway - in An Spidéal, in mass trí Ghaeilge further out... Never once was it pointed out to us by teachers even there that this pronunciation is incorrect - when we're there to learn and develop our skills in Irish. If it's a mispronunciation and the people who grow up trí Ghaeilge primarily don't correct it, where does one go to learn Connacht Irish? If it's an acceptable/accepted pronunciation, is this channel actively discouraging learners from even trying to speak with whatever Irish they have acquired? Is fearr Gaeilge bhriste ná Béarla cliste, as the saying goes. Ideally, Gaeilge cliste as the norm would be fantastic, but sure we have to start where we are...
YESYESYES, yeees, finally No English "r"!! About "Gaeilge i mo chroí", there was a video "conversation as Gaeilge le Seán" and I commented on their pronunciation, Seán replied to me "maybe you want to make your channel which will be better", I didn't say a think about Molly's channel...
Yeah, I made a criticism of her conversation with a native Ulster speaker. I said something along the lines of if English filler words such as "you know", "I mean", "so", "like" would sound weird during a chat in French, then why should it not be any different in Irish? Why is that we have to put up with this cheap, overly Anglicised run down of the native Irish language? Has it not suffered enough down the years to not have to go through further indignities when it comes to its revival?! There is nothing purist about insisting on correct pronunciation. I cannot believe these big UA-cam channels are so thin-skinned, all I was doing was being constructive. As always, there excuse is "Oh, this is how it is now" or "plenty native speakers do this",
I know that I have Scottish heritage with 9 bloodlines in my family. There's a possibility that I may have Welsh, Irish, and maybe Scandanavian and Norweigan heritage.
Scandinavian includes Norwegian. So, British and Scandinavian, basically. Yes, Irish Gaelic is always an option, as it is still a living language, just about.
ua-cam.com/video/oIokUII7LX0/v-deo.html&t Is this video an accurate guide to Irish language pronunciation? I have watched it multiple times, all the way through, assuming that it was accurate, but I cannot be sure.
@@paulbustion1291 I've just had a listen, and while not quite pleasantly surprised, I found her pronunciation not as catastrophic as most of such content on UA-cam. She was getting more than half of the sounds right. But unfortunately she was also getting some wrong. (For example, when she thought she was saying "i nDoire", what she was actually saying was "anuraidh".) Better than most, but still way short of correct. This is unfortunate. Had she contacted me before making the video, she would have surely been saying every Gaelic phoneme perfectly correctly. As is, I calculate she gets about 75% of them right.
Are they definitely mistakes or are they dialect differences? Ive lost count of how many times people have told me my pronunciation of Dia Duit (gee-uh ditch) was wrong. Its actually the correct pronunciation in the Ulster dialect.
@@greyswandir2807 You've clearly not listened to all of what I said in the video. I emphasised that I'm talking about actual, gross, minimal pair mispronunciations, what we could also call phonemic misrepresentations.
Is rud tabhachtach é seo a rádh, mar ní thaitníonn an coinceipt seo le pobal na (nua)gaeilge ar na mallaibh. Ach is fíor é, agus ná bí ag éisteacht le BLOC TG4 fosta.
I'm trying to learn in Duolingo but they keep switching back and forth between Irish Gaelic and other forms of dialects inside of Irish language. Then when I use a translator to try to clarify which one they're actually using it's still as stupidly vague. It's still just says Irish Gaelic or Gaelic with no other descriptors why can't people just get it together?! Who is allowing these jokesters to keep screwing up the Irish language. Also if there's a standard way that they're teaching in Irish schools to speak Irish in Ireland is it actually safe to learn it that way? Seeing as it might just be their standardized version? I'm looking for an actual Irish understanding so that I can help carry this language on in my families line as a spoken language that we speak alongside English also, and often. But I've been continually frustrated by the people online who claimed to be from Ireland or who are Irish or who live in Scotts land or because they went and took Irish language classes and they can't even all agree upon what to call this language. It just seems like a lot of stupidity when it comes to this language. Some people are saying it's Gaelic other people are saying it's Gaelic some people are saying you have to call it Irish only other people are saying it's Irish Gaelic when you try to learn it online at the Irish Gaelic all the time when you try to learn it online through interpreter apps it'll say Irish or Gaelic or or Golic? Isn't there a way to take the most original irish-speaking that we can and make all the other nonsense go away? Is it really this loosey-goosey in language apps with no oversight? Coat could I technically say that French is pronounced whatever way I feel like it's pronounced? Probably not. But what is this with a Irish language app. Even the ones who claim to know the Irish language. There are three dialects and when anyone goes to learn any of them the apps take Liberties and decide to mix them all up together and throw in a little Scottish Gaelic?
Hi Patchy, I live in Ulster and people say "Mura" for Muire, is your pronunciation one of the southern dialects or is Mura just incorrect altogether? thanks in advance
Incorrect altogether. Irrespective of dialect. Thanks for enquiring. Are you referring to people from Belfast? Excuse my presuming, but I've been hearing Belfast people for years now, believing they're speaking Gaelic, usually on the Gaelic radio and television stations, often shouting or growling, but in all these years of having them grating on my ears with their atrociously wrong pronunciations, there's only one Belfast person I've ever heard who speaks in correct, what in Gaelic we call "sweet", Gaelic. His name is Ronan. Guess what! He's a student of mine, and now pronounces the language better than even the renowned writer and Gaelic scholar Doctor A.J. Hughes, previously the only Belfast person who I could listen to without grinding my molars together. Ronan now speaks like a true Gael, correctly and softly spoken, unhurried, like many seeped in generations of deepest, dampest Donegal. And I've other students of Ulster Gaelic not far behind him on that same journey.
@patchy642 It's just a bit of an accent though, it's not a new word, it's just how people shape their letters based on where they are from, it's the same for all langauges, but I do get what you mean.
@@ShaneMcFerran_ You don't get what you mean yourself, as it seems you don't understand. Let's see. . . Imagine if people speaking English said "light" when what they believed they were saying is "right" (this does actually happen). Should we now conclude that it's a new word? Or is it still fair, if old-fashioned, to realise that they're just saying it wrong. Which is not a problem, until these people then decide to teach new learners of English to pronounce "right" as "light", and every other word with an R pronounced like an L? Would that be a good way to teach people English? That's what's happening with Gaelic, and you want to normalise it. A new word? No, a new, and now incomprehensible, language.
I'm trying to learn. How do I learn from you? What is your opinion of BitesizeIrishGaelic? Edit: well you addressed my questions! And I definitely need your help. I came across Rosie a few weeks ago, and yeah you're absolutely right about Molly(nothing against her personally), by I'm African American with absolutely no experience with Irish as a language, and I could tell something about her Irish was off, sounds like her pronounciations are based on how things are pronounced in English. How can I learn with you?
Go rabh maith agad ar son an fhíseáin seo. Tá lúthgháir orm ag feiceáilt nach bhfuil mé 'm'aonar... Ní thuigim cad chuighe a bhfuil daoiní ag teagasc fuaimniughadh na Gaedhlic nuair nach bhfuil fuaimniughadh na Gaedhlic acu féin.
Thank you thank you thank you for including channels you recommend, and for writing them out in the description! There's not much worse than when a person only criticizes and provides no alternatives. 🙏 Go raibh maith agat!
Something I often hear from the older generation is that the Irish I speak that I was taught through gaelscoils both primary and secondary, is different than the Irish that they know. Really none of this pronunciation stuff is the be all end all, dialects change and languages develop. If you're not over 40, or it's not your first language, chances are you don't have these "proper" pronunciations. Considering our history there are very few true "native speakers" nor are there many of them teaching the older ways of speaking the language. I think it's one of those terms that's treated a bit too preciously, I'm an Irish person who's spoken Irish since I was 5 years old, would I not be considered a native speaker? What it boils down to is do we want to split hairs about pronunciation when the language is clinging to life (and every corner of the country speaks it differently anyway), or do we embrace the modern way of speaking it and just be glad people are interested.
There is a difference between having somewhat of a 'foreign' accent when speaking a language that you are not native in, and outright not even trying to use *any* of the sounds correctly, and being hostile to correction by native speakers. You would never dare do that when learning any other language. Of course languages change but I would think some of this stuff would be the bare minimum. No one is asking learners to have perfect pronunciation. We talk about this language as if it is already dead and there aren't tens of thousands of native speakers who would be gold standard primary sources of the language.
@@kalleG_ I agree with you and the author of this video that it is bad that poor pronunciation is being taught. But there are not that many sources to go to learn the language, since it is currently declining, beggars cannot be choosers, I would not entirely avoid channels like Dane's in trying to learn the language. I would avoid learning pronunciation from them, but they are still useful on grammar and vocabulary.
Tá an Rúisis i bhfad níos áille agus níos suimiúla, is dócha, toisc méid litríochta atá scríofa i Rúisis - níl puinn litríochta claisicí san Úcráinis - i Rúisis do scríodh a húdair féin sa 19ú haois déag....
Don't get bogged down with grammar or pronunciation it's more important to be able to form sentences and express yourself. That's my opinion, Irish taught in our schools growing up was way too stressed about making sure we knew grammar. Led to most of us not being able to speak Irish at all.
Is Irish language decentralized? Is this why all of this confusing back-and-forth amongst a bunch of different Irish people? Is there Pride so strong? Do they care so little for the language? Or did they just not grow up speaking it naturally. And if so does that mean they learned it wrong themselves but don't realize that because it was from a place like the UK standard Irish language 101 xcetera.
The Irish government started trying to standardize Irish back in 1922 with the Irish Free State. Honestly, with the advent of urbanization and media proliferation (newspapers, radio, internet) we're probably going to see the emergence of a New Modern Irish with the strong influence of English phonology. Keep in mind, I'm a Yank, so my opinion matters as much as a snowball in Hell, but that's honestly what I think. Languages change. French was standardized in the 18th century. The advent of radio in the USSR lead to a great "dialect leveling" such that Russophones from one end of the USSR to the other started sounding alike. It is what it is. You can't make a river flow backwards.
Aon seans ann caint leat am eicint? Tá mé ag smaoineamh ar físeanna youtube a chrochadh suas ag díriú ar an nGaeilge a fhoghlaim, mar sin is ag iarraidh caint ghearr leat, comhairle uait atá mé, mura miste leat. Ní ag iarraidh daoine a chur ar strae a bheinn féin. Is mise Pól.
@@teangaire Oileán Thenerife, An Spáinn, An Afraic. Go mbeannaí Dia duit, a Phóil. Is mise Páirín. Ba bhreá liom caint a bheith againn, muise, am ar bith a thogrófá. Bí i dteagmháil liom. Le gach dea-ghuí. Páirín Phádraig Thomáis Ó Raghallaigh.
No. My criticism is that she's NOT speaking the Ulster dialect. I love the Ulster dialect, and hearing it well spoken. Molly makes a very shoddy attempt at speaking it, but it's definitely not correct Ulster Gaelic she's speaking, although she IS getting slightly better, at a snail's pace. Had she taken up my offer two years ago to instruct her, I'm sure she now WOULD be speaking decent Ulster Gaelic, which she would have started getting right within a matter of three or four sessions with yours truly. But no, she's still saying things like "le chaéile" instead of "le chéile", "teá" instead of "tá", and many other such horrible mixing up of consonants. I actually teach Ulster Gaelic. All my students within a month from starting are pronouncing everything better than Molly. I don't know why she doesn't just learn to say the correct sounds. They're NOT difficult. It's been years now, and she's still pronouncing so many phonemes just pure wrong.
@@doyler78 no I meant native speaker as in went through the school system in Ireland and was taught it at a young age. I didn't mean she's from a Gaeltacht. Native just implies you were born somewhere.
@@danielofinan5071 A native speaker of a language is someone who was brought up in a language and their main interactions are in that language. Molly herself very specifically said she is not a native speaker of Irish. It's a specific thing. That's the only point I'm making.
In reading some of the formal linguistic information that is out there, it is abundantly clear that the scholars in the field agree that there is no "standard" Irish pronunciation per se, just a whole lot of accents and regional dialects which haven't managed to knock off the other dialects (yet--just you wait and see!). There are, however, broad similarities that can be studied. However, there also appear to be as many ways of pronouncing Irish as there are Irish people, and at least twice that many opinions on the subject, all of them disparaging of the 20,000,000 other opinions.
Not true. Unless you're referring to Irish English. In the video I'm referring to the teaching of Irish Gaelic, a language which has a phonetic dichotomy consonant system of contrasts, whereby each consonant uttered can clearly be heard as broad or slender. My main complaint is that these so-called teachers ignore this and other intrinsic and essential features of the phonology of what is relatively a very unified language, if we're referring to Irish Gaelic. Whatever formal linguistic information you've read I believe is surely misguided.
Well channel teaching is about $ ... Hehe.. The same problem occurs with all languages in western nations now ,with the only exception of finnish in Finland proper. But pronounciation of words from other languages can be hard. You need 25-40 years to pronounce norwegian right as an immigrant , and another 10 to further master the local dialect where you are at. I worry much more about how western world citizens younger than 28 do not know syntax, grammars and spelling in their own first language anymore.
@@liamdowling9122 I've no idea what you're trying to convey in this message. Would it be possible for you to redo it using clear, plain English, so as to understand what you meant to say?
![Life Online 💙 Storytime in Irish/ Gaeilge/ Gaelic with Éadaoin Nic Mhuiris [English CC]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Y1mTVLMGqQU/mqdefault.jpg)
it is very important not to acquire the wrong pronunciation in the beginning, because you will get used to it. It will then be very difficult to unlearn it again
I'm in that boat. I'm doing Duolingo, been doing that for the past 2.5 years or so. I didn't learn the pronunciation and I realized that I kept on getting confused. Duolingo really improved their platform since I started and now I'm relearning all the pronunciation. For a while I thought everybody was just lying. I also am slow with second languages. It's always been like that. I also quickly forget what I've learned so it's a real struggle for me.
@@deutsch.direkt That’s what I was taught when I was learning German in the Goethe-Instut, Dublin. Those teachers could have taught the Department of Education in Ireland so much about how to teach Irish properly in schools. They were excellent. 😊
I started learning Gaelainn again during the pandemic. I deliberately focused on Cork Irish as I have family connection to Gaeltacht Mhúscraí. I quickly learned that the channels you mentioned (except AnLoingseach ardfhear is ea é ) were not going to help me. I was horrified (and embarrassed as I am a Primary Teacher) when I learned about the caol/slender sounds. We were not taught them in school (only the spelling rule no phonology). I ONLY listen to native speakers mostly from Múscraí or Corca Dhuibhne now (or highly competent academics). I listen to Saol Ó Dheas, documentaries on the Munster Gaeltachtaí and I speak to a native speaker twice a month. I have attended the odd Ciorcal Comhrá and gotten the odd strange look when I speak. One woman thought I was from Cork (I'm actually a Dub😂). The native speaker I speak with told me that the way I'm learning the language shows the respect I have for it and also for the Gaeltacht. I practice shadowing aswell. This has really helped with words like 'suí' or 'dhún mé'. It's not 'may' as we learned it in school! I've talked with a lot of Gaelscoil teachers (I teach in an English medium school) and ex-students. They make no distinction between caol and slender sounds. For example 'b' in 'bó' and 'beag'. It's sad as the musicality (I love the slender r) of the language is lost without the correct sounds..
I'm in same boat but with Corca Dhuibhne connections. I will say though in Ciorcal Comhrás around my area (suburban Dublin) people are very familiar with Gaelainn and even sometimes speak its verb forms, expressions etc
As a person going through the education system in the Gaeltacht, Gaeltacht Mhúscraí, I can confirm that the way Irish is taught is pretty poor. The closest you get to being able to build communication skills and understanding dialects and just Irish faster and better is Cluastiscints and the Oral tests but apart from that there is little to no support. Lots of focus is placed on Grammar, Essay's, Blogs etc. Basically WRITING Irish which is very important, No denying that, but after you go through the education system you're still left with such little understanding and it's hard to communicate AND UNDERSTAND because of the different pronunciation's and dialects and also just the sounds of the language. I can't speak on behalf of T2 schools, Outside of the Gaeltacht, but in a T1 school It's not the best right now. Thanks for sharing your insight, was really helpful.
@@Peru-fc3bi I love the Munster dialect too. I learned it in Primary school. I know it’s a year since your post but I’m wondering how do you or your friend rate the pronunciation of Munster Irish in the website, Teanglann? What’s your opinion?
Thanks for making this video. I’ve been trying to learn Irish and I’ve had the sneaking suspicion that all the UA-cam channels I can find are non-native Irish speakers. I’d really love it if there was someone like a French mornings with Elisa but for Gaeilge.
American interested in languages here. I wonder why so many Irish people don't want to be told their pronunciation of Irish is wrong? Is it because they feel like since they live in Ireland, they should automatically know their country's original language? I don't see learners of any other language be this resistant to being corrected.
It's pretty common with smaller languages in a country to think there is no right or wrong, same thing in Italy
1) Irish is mandatory in all schools at both primary and secondary level. We don’t automatically know it, we study it.
2) There are three dialects of Irish and multiple accents within each dialect. Who decides what is “correct” pronunciation? Peig Sayers from the Blasket Islands in County Kerry (south) sounds completely different to someone from Gweedore in County Donegal (north). Both are valid.
3) Irish is an ancient language. There is no “authority” governing pronunciation. The best you can do is establish a standard set of rules which allows us to understand each other while, at the same time, respecting and preserving local pronunciations in the Gaeltacht areas.
4) Irish is the first language of the State according to Bunreacht na hÉireann (Irish Constitution) _and_ an official language of the EU. As such, it belongs to _all_ citizens of Ireland - not just those in the Gaeltachtaí.
If somebody wants to speak Irish with a strong inner city Dublin accent, that’s their prerogative. It’ll sound woeful but it sounds woeful in English anyway. 😂. We don’t know what original Irish sounded like in Dublin but we can be reasonably certain it didn’t sound like Cork! Come to think of it, as the Vikings founded Cork City (and then hung around for centuries making the place look untidy), Cork probably doesn’t sound like Cork. And don’t get me started on Kerry and Limerick where the Normans turned up and started a craze for the French “r”.
5) Finally, according to your own logic, as you’re American, your pronunciation of the English language is abysmal and your spelling leaves a lot to be desired. It sounds nothing like Old English, Middle English or modern English anywhere in England. In fact, it seems like the original language has strangely morphed … because apparently some Americans have spent the last couple of hundred years tinkering, willy-nilly, with it! Tsk tsk tsk!!!
🤣😂🤣👍🇮🇪
@@salbarresi347 except Irish is obviously not the native language of people that don't know how to speak Irish
@@marcellomancini6646 Great! By your logic *everyone* in Ireland _obviously_ is a native speaker because we all know *how* to speak Irish from at least the age of four - all five million of us (unless you’ve grown up abroad or have a disability)!
You cannot compare Ireland to Italy.
Irish is the premier official language of Ireland. Therefore, all official documents, passports, driving licences, social security, road signs, etc. are in both Irish and English, and Irish is mandatory in both primary and second level schools (12 years approx) nationwide.
Italian is the premier official language of Italy. Italian children do _not_ learn all the “smaller languages” for 12 years in every single school across Italy. Italian official documents nationwide do _not_ include a translation into *every* one of the “smaller languages” and somehow I doubt (but I could be wrong) that an Italian citizen has the right to go into any government building or court anywhere in Italy and insist on conducting business entirely in one of the “smaller languages”.
_Mise le meas,_ 😊
@@Clodaghbob You do not learn a native language at school, nobody ever did that and it will never happen, it's too late to be a native language and nobody actually got fluent by "studying it", you are supposed to use it as a primary language, which happens mostly in like a couple towns in Ireland.
Also by your logic every Italian is an English native speaker since I was learning it from 2 years old in school.
Thanks for the info. Very helpful to find this out before listening willy nilly to everything...
Edit to add: I want to make it clear first and foremost that I think your criticism is totally valid! It wasn’t quite clear enough in my original comment.
Unfortunately there are very few sources for learning Irish in general, especially for us living outside Ireland, so honestly I still truly appreciate their commitment to helping revive the language. Part of the problem is that frankly it’s really difficult to learn pronunciation as an adult since your literal mouth muscles have to learn how to move in a new way. And some of the people you mentioned were not fortunate enough to have learned Irish from childhood. It is a huge privilege to be a native speaker of any language, and that privilege has been stripped from most Irish people. The fact that they care enough to spread enthusiasm for the Irish language is wonderful in and of itself, and I know at least Molly (who you listed) makes it clear on her social media that she has struggled with her pronunciation. So I think as long as they make their audience aware of their limitations, there isn’t an issue. Irish needs as many speakers as possible so we shouldn’t necessarily be putting anyone down for not being perfect. If their pronunciation or grammar is off and they act like there is no issue though, that is disingenuous and it’s valid for you to bring that to people’s attention.
Totally agree, Irish is morphing with the increase in second language speakers. An accurate pronunciation is a praiseworthy goal, but by building up your vocabulary and grammar, which these people help you to, do invaluably, you will also get more in tune with pronunciation. I don't think a historically accurate pronunciation is possible in the age of the Internet too, with dialects being mixed.
I left a similar comment, the language is essentially dead in the six counties outside of homes and a few select clubs / bars / annual events partially because natives / fluent speakers won't speak to anyone else. I think at this stage in the language's recovery, the most important thing is simply that it is spoken at all and people who are trying to encourage that should be supported.
There are a lot of people carrying on with Irish but using English sounds. It drives me mad sometimes. Especially the teachers doing it.
The solution?
Only request the service of teachers of any language who actually know the language.
To quote Megatron, from the beginning of this video: Am I asking too much?
@@patchy642 Not at all. I think competent teachers who can speak Irish using Irish sounds - who actually know the language - is the basic minimum. It's not asking too much at all.
@@patchy642Dia dhuit Patchy.
I'm from Cork boy! I was a part of a crew doing a program for TG4 in the early 2000s. We filmed mainly in Wesht Cork and some days on Inis Oir. Because I was surrounded by native Munster speakers all day every day, I noticed a distinct difference in their accent versus that which I was taught at school. What enthralled me the most was that they would begin their (past tense) sentences with "Do", and they would use "eas/íos" at the end of the verb to denote "I" did rud éigin ie "Do choimeadas", agus "Do chuireas" / "Do cheannaíos".
Níl a fhios agam cén fáth, but I fell in love with it. The "Do" seems ubiquitous, but I feel it gives the description of their action increased emphasis, like making an announcement. One could just say "Chuir mé" or even "Chuireas", but it's like the "Do" gives the listener a moment to anticipate that an important verb is going to be said, so that they 'tune in' better, as it were. It's like an increased efficiency by utilising psychological knowledge of folks tuning in and tuning out, and back in again. I could be wrong. I could be entirely wrong! Am I wrong?
Anyway, I don't know, sorry for the long ramble to you now, but I absolutely really fell in love with that, and began to realise that we have changed a lot of the organic language, the genuine article, in arrogance, in the last century. Considering that it was a century where we had the least amount of authentic Gaeilge ever spoken, it was an act of arrogance.
When I began to delve, I discovered that there has been a lot more, literally 'vandalising' of our language in 'modern' times.
So overall, is rud an-dheas é to come across an expert who actually gives a damn about *authenticity* and righteous conservation.
Go raibh míle if you have read all of this, and sorry for the rant.
Slán go fóil ó Corcaigh.
☘☘🇮🇪🇮🇪
Mícheál Ó Siabhail's book, 'Learning Irish' gives a very good breakdow of Irish's sounds, with its unique broad and slender *consonants* (!)
It comes with recordings of the sounds and scripts (Connacht Irish).
[Edited to correct the book's title.]
I've got the book, purchased 30 years ago at the North Texas Irish Festival, but the audio portion has long passed into the sunset. Any possibility of finding the audio on the internet?
@hermessanhao I may have got the name wrong, I see 'Learning Irish' available online. It still comes with a set of audio recordings. It seems reasonably priced, inasmuch as it's a really thorough book - an education!
I can't imagine where you'd get the original audio recordings separately - could write to the publishers, I suppose? But by the time you paid for them and the delivery charges, it may be not be worth the effort!
@@hermessanhao yes, I found these recordings in mp3 format online. There's a torrent file called "Irish Gaelic (Gaeilge) Language Learning Pack" that's been up for years, it contains the audio files for this book.
@@hermessanhaoSo did I but in Germany 26 years ago. No recordings were attached but I've found them on twirpx. I was hoping to have time to learn it thoroughly but unfortunately I was only able to go through several lessons. Therefore I was quite surprised not to hear any of the 'soft' sounds in online lessons. Now I know why. Irish on Duolingo sounds 'hard' as well, doesn't it?
@@hermessanhao Yale university press has all of the texts available.
I'm English, and my Nan was from Ireland, so I've always wanted to learn the language. I'm glad I decided to do some research and found you and AnLoingseach before I started (I always thought the Anglophone accented Irish sounded weird, and that it couldn't be correct). I love the way that you ripped into these people, it's hilarious! XD
Aw, you're very kind.
I'm going to ask you a favour that I often ask my Mainland friends, to please edit your commentary above, changing the word "but" for "and", to reflect a more positive, realistic and practical mindset.
People try to push the idea that "Irish" and "English" is somehow a contrast.
No.
It's a symbiosis, with a 90% overlap.
Does that make sense to you?
@@patchy642 Aww, thank you! That's very sweet of you! ^^ I've edited my comment based on your advice! It makes me happy to hear that you feel that way! I think the peoples of our nations are very similar (and have been for thousands of years), and even though not everything has gone great between us, that's kinda like most families ^^;
Btw, what are some good resources for listening to authentic native Irish Gaelic? Sorry if you've answered this before. I've just been listening to some of your videos, and the way the language sounds is so beautiful and unique to me. I really like it! But it's so different from what I've usually heard (from non-native speakers, I assume) so I was wondering if there were any radio stations or podcasts or musicians that you could recommend (I usually like to listen to a language for a while, to become familiar with its cadence, before jumping into learning it properly) ^.^
Go raibh maith agat!
@@rambleswolf
As I put in the description notes of this video, the following link is of surely the best available sound archives for mostly Mayo and some Galway Gaelic:
archive-cartlann.turassiar.ie/p/press/search?source=nav
@@patchy642 dia dhiut a Patchy, tá an nasc seo briste for some reason.
@@patchy642
Another English person learning Irish (with absolutely no connection to Ireland). There are more of us than you think :)
I think you should make a video review on Duolingo's Irish language course
Good point. I started it with great enthusiasm but quickly dropped it. Can't remember now exactly why, but it was something to do with the mechanised curbing of the language, "Pigeon Irish" I found myself thinking.
It used to be brilliant, with a native Connemara Irish speaker. They got rid of her and now have terrible speakers who cannot pronounce a single sound that doesn't occur in English.
The guy in the video is Metatron. His real name is Raffaello Urbani and he is Italian, from Sicily to be precise. He speaks a perfect standard Italian and is highly trained in Classic Latin. Also, he is an expert of Ancient Japanese culture.
He's an all-round intellectual super-heavyweight! Nearly everything he says just makes sense!
That's why he's well-placed to critique the French UA-camr claiming to teach correct Italian pronunciation!
Go raibh míle míle maith agat a Phatchy as ucht an ardmholadh sin (bíodh sé tuillte nó nach mbíodh!) Dá mbeinn fhéin i mbun an liosta áfach chuirfinn An Loingseach romham fhéin, is saoi gan locht é, má tá a leithéid ann. Duine éicint eile atá go hiontach ó thaobh canúineolaíochta de ná an Dr Andrea Palandri agus tá físeán nó dhó de ag mionscrúdú na gcanúintí stairiúla muna bhfuil siad feicthe agat. Bhí mé (agus bím i gcónaí) thar a bheith graitheach faoi láthair ach tá dúil agam cur síos a dhéanamh ar na canúintí ar fad sa gcéad fhíseán eile a dhéanfas mé. Beannachtaí na féile ortsa a Phádraig agus Feliz Navidad cér bith cén áit ina bhfuil tú. Seánfaidh mé é seo do Phap thiar ar an gCartúr chomh maith
Go maire tú, a chomrádaí.
Muise, ní raibh dada cloiste agam riamh faoin dochtúir Palandri, bail ó Dhia air.
Tá mé tar éis cluas a thabhairt dó anois, agus is fíorshuimiúil a fear é, dearfa.
Tá mé ag súil go mór le d'fhíseán sin, nár laga Dia do lámh, a Dazpatreg.
Nollaig mhór shona duit, a chara.
Le gach dea-ghuí,
Páidín.
Pronunciation is certainly something I've struggled with while learning Irish. I'd be interested to know, though, @patchy642 how much of this comes down to dialectal differences? It's well established that a lot of the early 20th century teaching of Irish was monopolised by the Munster dialect. To my ear the palatal R used by many Munster speakers is very slight by comparison to Connemara speakers.
No.
None of this comes down to dialectal differences.
I'm simply calling out teachers who pronounce the sounds wrong, constantly and repeatedly.
Either they're right or they're wrong.
It's not a dialect thing.
Correct speakers, be they from Munster or Connemara, or wherever, when they pronounce the palatal R, it's palatal.
If it's not, then they're not.
So I must conclude that your ears are wrong, or, more likely, those people they've listened to are speaking the sounds wrong.
That said, correct Gaelic pronunciation isn't very difficult for a native speaker of English, as long as he or she makes a minimum effort.
Chinese pronunciation, for example, now that's difficult.
Or as I mentioned in the video, Siamese pronunciation.
But still they're usually learned correctly, because all the teachers of such languages speak them correctly, and the student simply needs to learn to listen to and imitate the teachers' speech.
Teachers who repeatedly say these very sounds wrong should desist, go work at something else, at least until they learn to say them right.
This is simple.
@@patchy642 It's quite possible that my ears aren't as well tuned to it as perhaps they should be. Still, I find that it's much more pronounced in the other dialects. Or, perhaps a better way to describe it is to say it has more sibilance. There are a few great examples of what I mean in this video clip from TG4: (ua-cam.com/video/CPDtgAk8GKQ/v-deo.html). It seems very slight in "Blúire mór páipéir" (0.33), "oiriúnach" (0.35), "díreach é" (0.52 and 1.14), "gurb í an bhrí" (1.04), "riomhré" (1.26), "uirthi" (2.07), "Abairt" (2.20), "Cén bhrí atá leis?" (2.27), "Abair" (2.37), etc. I can certainly hear it other times, though, for example, "báire" (1.11), and maybe "uirthi" (2.04), but these clearer ones seem to be the exception.
@@AdrianODubhghaill
Ah, indeed, well spotted.
These men, like most young speakers in the Munster Gaeldoms, for the most part probably never grew up speaking the language, but rather just observing it, that is they learned it by hearing the older generation speaking it, but spoke amongst themselves in English, often about things they saw and knew of only in English, on the television, Harry Potter or whatever.
Therefore when they finally decided to speak it when already in their teens, they often don't notice enough to make the effort to incorporate all its sounds, but rather unknowingly swapping out the closest phonemes from their fully native English, or knowingly, because that's what they'd now started to hear spoken on the same television, now that the Gaelic (quasi-Gaelic, really) station had started.
Hector and whoever.
This phonemic decline usually happens with every dying language, the degree depending on each speaker.
The exact same phenomenon, with the same R phonemes, was noticed among the generation of the last Gaelic speakers in Kintyre, in Scotland, just before that dialect fully expired.
Now, while this also happens in other areas, in places like Connemara where it's still strongly spoken as a community language, the young speakers have enough peers who also speak correctly, that they notice it, and therefore either decide to refrain from speaking Gaelic at all, or to actually learn to say the sounds as their more versed companions do, to soon become fully proficient.
If you listen to any Munster Gaelic from when it was still spoken as a full, exclusive community language you'll hear all the sounds in all the right places.
The word "uirthi" is an exception, as it would more phonetically have been allocated the spelling "orthai", I presume in all dialects, just like its governing preposition should conversely have been allocated "oir", and indeed that's how that great UA-camr and scholar An Loingseach spells it, while the rest of us are stuck with the non-phonetic standard spelling it currently has: "ar".
Also, the words "roimh ré" (which you wrongly spelt as one word) use the broad R, as the initial is never pronounced slender, even if written slender, something similar to a rule in Spanish where an initial R is always pronounced as a double R.
If only An Loingseach would make a video or two speaking fully in Gaelic, you'd surely have the right samples to hear all the correct sounds in full Kerry dialect.
Until he does, you've probably got to mostly rely on much older speakers, or the many recordings from the last century.
One good source of them is a Gaeldom Radio podcast called "Cartlann Bhóthar Na Léinsí", available on their website and on the app, old recordings of lots of excellent speakers of many dialects of Munster Gaelic.
In America we are not trying to speak English the same way our grandfather spoke it.
This mindset is totally backwards.
Go to TG4 and watch the documentary about TG Lurgan - The Irish summer school where they make music videos for UA-cam.
Listen to the 16 year old kids speaking what this guy would consider “terrible irish”
To me this irish is beautiful. Much nicer to listen to than this angry old man.
If there is to be a future for irish it will sound like what you will hear on that documentary. Not the blabber that is coming out of this old man’s mouth.
Mol an Óige agus tiocfaidh sí
I'm a learner myself and have watched two of the three channels you mentioned. I already had my suspicions which were confirmed when you called the speakers out: people who use their Hibernian English accents to pronounce Irish. Go raibh mile maith agat a Phatchy.
It would be great if you did a video on how the Irish education system spreads the false notion that Irish Gaelic is pronounced like Hiberno-English and how fake Irish speakers have hijacked the language on UA-cam!
It's quite bewildering to notice that when you show native Irish speech to people with ZERO knowledge about the language, they immediately hear the correct pronounciations and are able to mimick them, eg. "Tír Chonaill"
Whereas these "teachers" or "native speakers" in the worst case might pronounce it like "Taor Conall"
Is there any channels or resources you would recommend for learning in the Ulster dialect?
Yes indeed.
Simply follow Rosie:
ua-cam.com/video/d0xVlMMvezk/v-deo.htmlsi=iZyltZ-JLp3mvEb-
Please tell her I sent you.
@@patchy642 thanks
I really commend your approach here as otherwise no one would ever know the wiser.
It seems to me, it's as though European Second Language learners of English started teaching people that [z] was an acceptable pronunciation of the 'th' sound in English, and that was then cascaded to 90% of learners in schools.
One thought though.
Just flicking through their channels, one thing they are probably doing a bit better (based on a cursory review), is the marketing / style piece.
While I'm at awe at An Loingseach and love his content, the only other people I've shown his videos to who liked it were fellow language nerds like myself. While his knowledge is outstanding, he has less appeal for the average learner.
I suggest that if you or AnLoingseach or a few others joined forced to make more shorts, etc, it could make a serious dent in what the other channels are doing, as unfortunately they do seem to be winning the battle when it comes to views and subscribers ... alas :(
What are your thoughts?
@@liammelia6843
Thank you.
You're very kind.
Yes, I'm not very savvy when it comes to social media.
Many have said I should do more short videos.
Only today I was watching a video by An Loingseach, enthralled by his wisdom and delivery.
He rambled along, branching off on loads of almost random tangents, and I was lapping it up, often nodding along in agreement, sometimes muttering in disagreement, thoroughly enjoying it.
But he and I are from I guess a generational mindset from the times before catchy soundbites, and we're not used to this more modern fast and furious delivery that optimises every second.
We do tend to ramble on, which those who understand enough to enjoy such subject matter appreciate, but that's not everyone, as you say.
So yes, I do hope to modernise my approach and organise some short snippets.
I'm hoping An Loingseach will come here for a visit some day, to see who most bamboozles who.
Have you watched any of Dazpatreg's rambles?
Quality!
Yeah, I think that could be the next step required to really spread the word to be honest.
I also lap up An Loingseach's videos and I'll happily watch him speak about Indo-European etymology or pronunciation of extinct dialects. But people in my family who are less into their linguistics than I am cannot fathom who I can sit through an hour and half of phonetics, interspersed with interminable tangents and sidetracks.
I suppose what I'm trying to say is that while a certain audience loves these videos, those are probably mainly purists or people really into their linguistics, and not perhaps the average learner who's thinking of picking up their Irish again after a hiatus.
I haven't watched any of Dazpatreg but I've subscribed now to his channel, and bookmarked a few of the other resources that you shared, so I look forward to watching his stuff!
Greetings. How do you do. I am interested in learning Irish in essence. Thank you very much for your assurance in sincere guidance. Go raibh maith agus.
For a while I was trying to learn Irish - then I realized (on top of not having much luck at getting a good enough handle on the grammar) that a learner learning from learners is pointless in terms of keeping the language alive in a meaningful way. I had 'teach yourself complete Irish,' Buntus Cainte, and every other 'official' or academic lessons I could find, and even some of those sounded janky ('teach yourself complete Irish' seemed to have one horribly novice speaker) when compared to the hosts and callers I regularly listened to on RnaG, nevermind the otherworldly experience of trying to grasp or emulate the bona fide native speakers in RTÉ recordings from decades ago.
The only question I would have regarding "these people pronounce it all wrong" would be: where I live we pronounce it /watər/, but some English speakers say /wada/ and yet others say /waʔə/ but we're all talking about H2O, so which one of us would be teaching a learner the 'wrong' pronunciation?
on your last point, id say its like if someone from china learned english from 5 different teachers, one scottish, one american, one scouse, one georgie, one australian - they might learn to speak and understand english fluently, but they would have a strange and inconsistent mix of pronunciations which would make them hard for other people to understand them
The difference is that those are all valid native pronunciations. None of them are 'wrong'. But pronouncing it /vəˈtɛːʁ/ or something would sound very wrong to any native speaker.
Thanks so much for this information !
Hi patchy I only realised after watching this my own pronunciation was poor as I realised I had 0 dialect.Whats the best way to learn these pronunciations
@@NeeloMack
It's not a matter of dialect.
These pronunciations should be present and correct irrespective of whether speaking with a regional dialect, or simply with normal, official standard Gaelic.
Italki is always one of many good options for learning the correct sounds of a new language, in my opinion.
I had an encounter with Dane from learn Irish. I made a small critique a few years ago and got a very aggressive reply. Great video and information..
I first started with Lurgan. I then discovered Learn Irish Now. I later went to BiteSize Irish.
I am curious. Is it possible that you focus on Connemara and they focus on other dialects? I know BiteSize Irish is in Munster and Molly is in Ulster. I am partial to Munster, being a Donovan, however I acknowledge BiteSize does sound unusual at times, to me.
No, not at all.
I'm speaking about all dialects.
(I don't know what made you think I'm speaking about or for Connemara Gaelic.
If I'm honest, it's probably the variety that least appeals to me, as I find it quite strange and quirky, very different from all other varieties in many ways.)
When refering to dialectal variation you are refering to variation that arises among native speakers in different areas typically. This here is just mispronunciation by learners, (e.g. mispronouncing spanish año as ano...) This seems to be a point of significant confusion and misconception among Irish learners.
I'm glad I came across your videos early on. I'm a new learner from the US (I started just under a month ago), and I'm planning to visit the country in a few years. I hope to learn enough of the language by then to stop by a Gaeltacht while I'm there.
I've been watching along with your videos as Gaeilge and mimicking your way of speech; it's very helpful, especially when I hear words that I already know and can apply the pronunciation to that. Especially the caol R. I'm excited that I'm now able to pronounce that and pick it out from spoken words.
Go raibh míle maith agat, a Phatchy!
You're very kind.
Yes, speaking with the correct Gaelic sounds is a gesture you'll find appreciated when you get to visit Gaeldom, as we're so weary of people coming to showcase us their Gaelic while blatantly pronouncing it so wrong, so different to how native speakers talk, and we often think (and I for one sometimes say . . .) "Why, upon hearing me say this word, maybe several times, do you then go ahead and respond saying it so differently? Why can't you just listen and imitate how we say it ?!".
Feel free to leave a comment in Gaelic on one of my Gaelic videos, and I'll respond.
Best wishes,
Patchy.
Because of the scarcity of materials on Irish, I reluctantly still go to the sources that you criticized and others that mess up pronunciation, keeping in mind that their pronunciation is worthless. But I do this on the assumption that the grammar and spelling that they teach is largely correct. But I wondered if I was mistaken about that. Do the channels that you criticized for teaching the wrong pronunciation make significant mistakes in teaching the grammar and/or the spelling? If they do, I might avoid them entirely.
@@paulbustion1291
I wish I could answer in the affirmative, but unfortunately their lack of use of the language is often evident in their speaking of it, and as they speak much more in English, evident in their English translations of Gaelic.
Have you seen my appraisal of one of their recent offerings on my last short on here?
@@patchy642 I think that I watched it. I remember writing a reply linking a video that I thought was the video.
I'm italian. I decided to start learning Irish almost a year ago. I bought a grammar: no mention of the phonology. I started looking up on YT and every channel I found had a different pronunciation. I was going crazy, but now I understand that the pronunciation is a common problem. Anyway, what do you think of the youtube channel "The Irish Exile"?
I've just had a look now at The Irish Exile, and, again, it WOULD be great content if only the poor fellow knew the correct pronunciations, but I guess like most, he learned the sounds from somebody who never pronounced them correctly, but probably assured him they're correct, so, despite his clear belief that it's fine, his pronunciation is abysmal, getting the usual phonemes completely wrong.
Sorry.
@@patchy642 no problem at all! Actually, thank you for being so quick! I started learning from his channel, but quickly left it as it felt forced and - again - completely different compared to other speakers.
Your video was so helpful, I now feel more confident in what I'm doing :)
@@patchy642 I always got the impression that Irish Exile never professed to be perfect and that he's trying to give you perfect pronunciation, though I can understand why this annoys you, as a teacher. I've watched a number of his videos and the me it is more to learn the structure of the language, some basic vocabulary, and that, as you mention in your description, that certain combinations of letters that in English would be pronounced completely differently I need to treat differently when approaching Irish.
As for pronunciation I don't think you can ever learn to speak a language without speaking with those that ideally speak it natively, or second best have spent time speaking it with native speakers and immersed themselves in the language so I agree with you, I don't think this course is meant as anything more than an introduction to the language and I'm not sure it professes to be anything else, but I could be wrong. I will check out the channels you mention with the correct pronunciations to see if their videos are easy to continue my learning with. I've had issues with Bitesize in other languages as well, I think the channel owner has a concept, good branding, talks as though he authoritative when he's not.
This reminds me of when I moved from Louth and my teachers really didnt care about Irish teaching, to Galway. My teacher was from Connemara. I hadn't a clue what was going on for a while lol
Is that audio collection still available? The Turas Siar website seems finicky.
Apologies if you wouldn't mind putting the name of the first good channel. Can't seem to find it.
The channel is called Dazpatreg .
I'm seconding another comment to record a video of yourself speaking Irish and uploading it to Wikitongues. All the videos there are of second-language speakers who collapse the broad-slender distinction. (One of them even is a teacher!)
One of them is a Corca Dhuibhne speaker, I believe, and she does speak Kerry Irish in the video (though her pronunciation has very recognizable English influence, it’s definitely not the same sound as eg. Pádraig Ó Fiannachta’s recordings…). But yeah, out of *all* the recordings in Wikitongues, there is *one* competent Irish speaker.
I've just been informed that they've finally uploaded a video I gave them months ago of me speaking Gaelic.
At first they thought it must be some other language, as it didn't sound ''Irish'' enough for their expectations:
wikitongues.org/languages/gle/
@@benedyktjaworski9877 Ah, I didn't realize they had a webpage. I've only been on their UA-cam page.
Thanks for making this known, ive been browsing around Gaeilge teachers and ive heard them pronouncing things differently. The difficulty in acquiring real Gaelic makes me wonder if there is a deeper agenda….
Different localities pronounce things differently.
It's not just different dialects, as happens in all countries, but there seems to be an ill-judged effort to homogenise everything! On the surface, this standardisation seems practical, but one would be extremely brazen to deny that standardisation automatically loses uniqueness and authenticity.
At this point in my life, I'm so tired of everything presented as "being easier": it's like an ethos of convenience at ANY cost.
Thank you so much for this video. I was about to subscribe to one of these services because they had a pronunciation course. I have wanted to learn Irish for the longest time. Better not to start out with bad pronunciation habits.
Im not a fluent speaker myself but i know a decent amount and would say my pronunciation is decent. I see alot of people making alot of mistakes. I see people pronouncing ch as a k quite alot. Not pronouncing the slender r correctly, pronouncing dh/gh as a regular g etc. Tbf these sounds arent common in english per se, but they arent particularly hard to make as an english speaker either. The grammar in irish can be very challenging but imo the pronounciation is by far the EASIEST part of it.
Thank you for this video. I have always felt that proper pronunciation is a very important part of learning a language and finding UA-cam channels with proper Irish pronunciation is a hard task.
Is mór an onóir domh gur luaigh tú mé i do fhíseán, Patchy! 🙈 Tá go leor foghlamtha agam uait go dtí seo, agus is múinteoir den scoth thú! ☀️ ☀️ ☀️
Go maire tú, a Róise.
Bhí tintreacha iontacha againn ins na sléibhte, is fíor, ach tá siad múchta anois, faraor.
Cad chuige nach bhfuil dada curtha amach agat ar UA-cam ó shin?
Cén scéal eile agat, a thaisce?
Tabhair aire.
@@patchy642 Haigh, a chara! 👋 😊 Bhuel, shocraigh mé sos a ghlacadh ó físeáin a dhéanamh go dtí mí na Samhna is dócha. Bainim úsáid as an am chun léamh agus cleachtadh gach lá agus Tá mé ag éisteacht go mór le Raidió na Gaeltachta chun mo chuid foghraíochta a fheabhsú. Tá liosta tosaithe agam fosta de gach focal a chloisim le “r caol” cosúil le y-fhuaim ann! 😃
@@irishwithrosie2007 your videos are great, and wondered where you had gone myself. Glad to hear you are still around and thinking of making videos again in the near future!
Ack. I'm an American trying to learn Irish and I followed all the "wrong" ones for months. 😬
I feel like I need to start over.
I am no expert on pronunciation, but I can say they have really good content that is nice to watch. Much much more interesting than the good pronunciation sites you mentioned, though I watch and enjoy their videos too. Maybe if there is a way to bring good speakers together with better content and better quality videos, we would all benefit.
Múin í mar a labhraítear í!
I started learned Irish about a year ago now, (on and off) but I’m starting to really get serious with it. I noticed that tools like Duolingo, most Irish UA-cam channels only show words and phrases, how to pronounce them (badly). Yes it’s good to know the meeting of words, but, my biggest strategy right now is just learning the phonetic of it, so I can learn how to read Irish and pronounce it correctly before learning the words themselves. So far it’s my best strategy, I’m looking for Irish teacher but rn, I seem to be the only Irish speaker (not even remotely fluent) in my area, but thankfully there’s a university that offers a major or minor in Irish studies, so that’s progress!
Maith an fear.
I also discovered recently that our 'modern' Irish has dropped the pronunciation of many consonants e.g. "maith" I think in Middle and Old Irish would have been pronounced moth-on (fear) with the 'th' being pronounced and liaised with the next vowel.
Also, in classic Indo-European style, like the Italians and the Indians, we too used to roll the 'r'.
I was baffled by this and had recently watched a short video featuring two young girls from about circa the 1930s, in Munster, and they gave all the 'r' sounds this whip-like twang. It made the Gaeilge sound very very rustic and 'old fashioned', but then I got to thinking: what is WRONG with us??? Why do we not view old, and long-established as AUTHENTIC?? And the reasons are our national insecurity which made us lambs for controlling by globalists with wicked intentions. Everything quintessentially Irish is mocked and scorned and called old fashioned, whilst other people's ancient cultures are celebrated as authentic.
We truly have a fight on our hands for the identity of our people and the preservation of our GORGEOUS and unique culture, at which ár dteanga nádúrtha is é an rud IS tabhachtach.
@@Sionnach1601 I genuinely agree with what you said especially being scorned and mocked for anything Irish. It’s even such a deep insecurity with me that sometimes I catch myself mocking myself for my Irish traits. I roll my r’s for some Irish words (when I can because learning French first makes it very hard to roll my r’s but things like mná have that whip-like sound you described). It’s truly saddening when you realize just how much colonialism and also racism has affected our culture. Have you read the book “How the Irish became white” (idk who the author is) but it’s eye opening to our history with being (as a country) very anti-slavery but, so that Irish-Americans circa 1800s weren’t treated almost as bad as the slaves, they willingly chose to become white so they wouldn’t be as oppressed and I honestly understand that decision. But now, we’re grouped up with the oppressor kind of white population when we were oppressed, not the oppressors, and we fought against them just to be grouped up with them.
@@connyaaaa5555 Totally agree with everything there friend.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't, eh?
The only way to be in this World, is to be strong enough yourself so that regardless of the moral horse sh being bandied about, that you will always have the choice, because of your strength.
I don't know if na hÉireannaigh have that strength yet: we have been a DREADFULLY pathetic cowardly race in the last many decades since our supposed liberation.
The protests are really ramping up buíochas le Dia. Na hÉireannaigh will have to realise that they ARE ☘☘☘Éireannaigh.☘☘☘
I realised that at the age of 30, imagine that late? I was on Inis Oirr working for a few days. Bhí gach daoine ag caint as Gaeilge gach am, gach áit. Bhíomar sa teach tábhairne óiche amháin. Bhí ceol céilí, an deoch dubh, surrounded EVERYWHERE by Irish speakers. Then all of a sudden, I had this epiphany: with a surge I *FULLY* realised that I am Éireannach, something quite removed from every other group of peoples on the planet. Our own language, customs, song, long sad history, proud fallen heroes: I realised that I was Éireannach - agus tusa freisin a chara. Ní féidir le aon daoine eile a fheiscint cad atá a rá againn anois 😊☘☘🇮🇪🇮🇪
Is deas liom do chuid lámhscríbhneoireachta! Ní féidir an seanachló a shárú, fé mar a déarfá 😉
cinnte, is fearr liom é.
Hello and thanks a lot for this video! I'm super interested in phonetics and phonology, so I was so pleasantly surprised when I saw the video. I've had an interest in Gaelic for several years and have followed your channel for a few, but never got around to starting the process. Are you teaching on italki currently?
Yep.
And I'm now a fan of your singing.
I've a couple of Gaelic songs I wrote, but can't sing as my voice has no melody, so the sooner you master Gaelic, the better, to maybe get you singing them.
✨🎶✨🎵✨
How about the grammar? When I am looking for Irish it is mostly for grammar help.
Hi Audrey, conas atá tú. Greetings from Ireland. How is your Irish progressing. If you want some assistance I’ll help if I can. Wish you a nice weekend 👍🙏 Michael
I appreciate this video.
The other problem I'm having is when I actually use websites or apps that are suggested by people who are helping others to learn the Irish language you can't use phrases of just anyway you want. It's like they never imagined someone would say a whole sentence that is very short. Like I eat or I learn or whatever. The whole thing makes one question themselves all the time whenever they're trying to learn any little bit of Irish language. To the point where I found this UA-cam channel and I'm willing to just throw out whatever I have learned so far just to relearn here because it doesn't feel like that much consistancy actually.
Maith thú a Phatchy! Tá tú tar éis mé a spreagadh físeanna a dhéanamh ag teaspáint gur fédir linne (na dhaoine nach bhfuil Gaeilge againn mar ár dteanga dúchais) í a fhuaimniú mar is ceart go héasca. An mbeadh comhairle ar bith agat dhom.
Nár laga Dia thú, a Chraic!
Tá, doiligh, comhairle agam daoibh: an rud ceannann céanna a dhéanann foghlaimeoirí na Siamaise agus na hÚcráinise, is é sin cluas ghéar a thabhairt do chaint na gcainteoirí dúchasacha, agus aithris a dhéanamh orthu, agus gan mórán aird a thabhairt do dhaoine eile nach iad, mara bhfeictear go bhfuil bua na foghlama acu, an chaoi a bhfuil bua na foghlama ag leithéid Dazpatreg agus na daoine eile a luaigh mé leis, sárchainteoirí! Tugann Dave Learns Irish go leor leideanna maithe, chomh maith, agus Róisín i Meiriceá, agus is gearr go mbeidh siad beirt ina gcainteoirí chomh maith le duine ar bith, ach oiread leat féin, dar fia!
@@patchy642 Go raibh maith agat a Phatchy. Déanfaidh mé mo dhícheall an teanga a chur chun cinn mar is ceart.
@@patchy642 Nár chóir, "d'eile" a scríobh in áit "doiligh", más ag iarraidh cabhrú le foghlaimeoirí atáimid? Nach 'in atá ann ó cheart?
It’s pretty funny to me how Learn Irish was having a conversation in one of his comment sections where he was blaming the English for how we don’t speak Irish but then he doesn’t put in the effort to speak the proper language
Its not funny its a large souce of frustrations for those who dont want a fake irish language.
@@rxi4877I didn’t mean funny like that obviously it’s just really ironic
Yeah you would think those learners who often speak Irish specifically as a sort of protest against the use of English would at least make an effort in learning the pronunciation of the language.
Hi! Do you offer classes over the internet or in person? You sound like a great teacher. I'll be having a look through your video catalogue anyway!
Hi.
Yes, and yes.
Thank you, modesty forbids.
Great!
Tbf to Gaeilge i mo chroí, she's done a good job of improving her pronunciation and Irish in general recently
@@nathanheatley5401
I would say a mediocre job, still with tons of mispronunciations.
Had she taken up my offer she'd have learned in three short sessions (all completely spoken in Gaelic, by the way) of less than one hour MUCH MORE than what she's learned in these last three years.
@@patchy642 cuireann sé sin díomá orm, ach tá sé ait go leor nach nglac sí an deis a thabhairt tú di :/... déan an t-iarracht arís agus b'fhéidir go mbeadh sí níos gabhála an t-am seo
Thanks for the video. Can you recommend material that includes phonetic spelling? I am used to learn the words with the phonetic word attached, in Germany we call it „Lautschrift“ and I think it makes the whole learning much easier. I could not find a dictionary or other material/apps/sites that use it. It would make it a lot better…
Thank you.
Yes, I've mentioned such books on my book reviews on this channel.
Is Irish like Welsh in that there's a huge gap between spoken and formal language, like a kind of diglossia? With Welsh there's a fairly informal register taught in school that's never really spoken anywhere, then there's the language as it would be used on for informal writing like on council leaflets or to read the news, then there's the true formal literary language. Lastly there's real dialect as it's actually spoken and the difference between the extremes is like the difference between "he ain't doing nothing" and "he doeth not any thing". Except the differences are more widespread and more extreme. Not just vocabulary, but grammar too with totally different forms. That's why I found Welsh hard and I never felt I got near to really speaking it, despite living in the Welsh version of a Gaeltacht for all my teenage years.
Irish shares some of those problems. When Ireland achieved independence the State adopted a rather conservative version of the language as a national standard. It was based on the literary standard from a few centuries earlier. The spoken language has developed into three distinct dialect groups. The earlier standard most resembled Münster Irish. In 1954 it was decided to revise spelling and propose a standard non-obligatory grammar. But it is artificial. The other problem is pronunciations where non-native speakers substitute Hiberno-English as Patchy points out.
A Pheaitsí, mar bhárr ar an ndonas, is cainnteóir dúchais Eóin ó Bitesize Irish, nú, an chuid is lú dhe, do bhí droch-Ghaelainn aige ón gcliabhán... b'fhéidir gurb in é cúis nár mhaith leis éisteacht leat - is dó' leis go bhfuil an t-eólas go léir cheana féin aige mar do tógadh le Gaelainn é, pé olc maith an Ghaelainn í.
Great video. I think I’ve said this before, but I would strongly, strongly recommend submitting a video of you speaking Irish to Wikitongues. It would be a great way to expose people to “real” Gaeilge.
Duolingo is actually good at teaching proper pronunciation. The voice they use is a Connemara native with quite traditional pronunciation.
Edit: I just checked, and they have replaced the native speaker on Duolingo with a learner who can't pronounce broad and slender consonants!
Sadly it seems they're in the process of replacing it with TTS that can't distinguish broad/slender consonants!
I'm on there now, they inform me, the video I sent them some months ago having finally been cleared. They at first thought they had the wrong language on it, as it didn't sound English enough for what they expected:
wikitongues.org/languages/gle/
@@patchy642 Oh that's great! I wonder why it isn't on UA-cam yet. Sometimes it feels as if there's a grand conspiracy to silence authentic Irish...
@@davissandefur5980 An unbelievable decision.
@@patchy642 11 months later, it's no longer on their site, now only available through drop box.
I am trying to learn Scot's Gaelic and I want to learn Irish too.
A Phatchy - go raibh míle maith agat, deinim mo dhícheall ach is fíor dhuit - I would be the first to admit my pronunciation is terrible 😂
". . .was. . ."
I bet you're pronouncing everything correctly now, right?
Hey Dave!
I'm honored you've responded.
If there's still anything that needs tweaking in your Gaelic pronunciation, let's talk.
If you're here in Tenerife, let's meet for a scoop or two, and I'll show and explain to you whatever needs tweaking, as we jubilate with a quart of Spanish wine, just like in the Gaelic folklore of old.
Tá ceist agam ( I have a question) I am hearing a lot about italky but is it something ok to try for those of us with minimal, limited or no speech? Like this is a servicee I really want to look into but I primarily communicate frogmouth typing but do need help learning to hear and process the word and also type better and the like
That's a good question.
I presume most don't, but my method works best with absolute beginners.
Really, the less of the target language you know, the more you will learn with me.
Truly zero to hero in a few sessions.
Plus it's fully immersive, and I provide all the vocab you'll need for the session, so it's quite easy.
Don't hesitate.
Maybe I should do a video explaining how easy and suitable for complete beginners my lessons are.
What is the 'correct' pronunciation (in your opinion) of 'uaim'?
Really want to learn to speak Irish but I’m currently studying Spanish and Manderin. Want to fill my head with endangered language after I’m conversational in those but the problem with that is that while I’m studying the big ones endangered languages continue to die. Was thinking of picking up another alongside Irish when I do. Which should I pick that would mutually help with Irish? Should I just do Irish with full effort by myself? Also, I would like to learn about pre Catholicization Ireland and it’s religion.
What do you mean by a language that would mutually help with Irish? One similar to it? Because in that case you'd want Scottish or Manx Gaelic, note, Manx spelling is *very* different to Irish as it's based primarily on English and to a lesser extent, Welsh.
I was just came from gaeilge i mo chroí on her video about pronunciation (it was 2 years prior to this one)😢 I wanted clarification on the different sounds, goes to show i need more than one source to verify the information I've been given.
Thank you for this video. This is something I suspected a long time and it's good to hear. There is something uncanny about hearing a foreign language spoken with english phonetics, no matter the language. If you've ever heard someone speak a more widespread language with english phonemes you know the feeling. It's like Peggy Hill speaking spanish, not in using the wrong words which she does but in speaking it completely with English sounds. I'm glad some people are really preserving the language
What about irish with mollie?
On a separate note Is beidh to be pronounced bye or beg?
@@sula1529
You didn't watch the whole video, right?
I've talked about that channel in it.
The pronunciation of that word varies with dialect, but with correct speakers the initial consonant is always slender.
Many English-speaking learners of Gaelic pronounce it broad, being unaware of such differences.
Thank you for replying to me @@patchy642 I did watch it the whole way through I will have to watch again maybe I missed that part?
In kerry we always pronounced it beg but I see she says bye so I m confused 😕
I am listening again and it seems that website has changed from irish in my heart to irish with mollie. I am probably learning loads incorrectly now 😔
I wonder are they coming up with a new slang gaeilge (modern version) of their own?
Go raibh míle maith agat, a Phatchy! Múinim an Ghaeilge d’Astrálaigh.Agus sin dúshlán ann féin! Tá an t-ádh dearg orm go bhfuil roinnt teangacha agam cheana féin, agus go dtuigim foghraíocht, a mhúinim trí Ghaeilge do mo rang tosnaitheoirí. Chuir mé lámhleabhar le chéile chun cabhrú le mo chuid daltaí.
i go to Gaeilge i mo Chroí for the words, not the sounds. I'm from America and want to learn a little Irish, maybe even raise my future-kids speaking it. The first time i went to Molly, I could tell she had not had the best teachers herself.
One time, I watched this vlog by a Clisare person, speaking Irish during the entire episode, and she pronounced "ach" meaning "but" as "Ahk."🤨
It's wierd how English has the most inconsistant pronunciation in the WORLD, and English people struggle to pronounce ANYTHING from ANY other language.
by the way, is "Gaeilge" pronounced "gale-guh" or "Gwale-guh" or does it vary?
Go raibh maith agat!
_by the way, is "Gaeilge" pronounced "gale-guh" or "Gwale-guh" or does it vary?_
The word for the language varies by region. For example in Munster is Gaelainn and Gaeilge is the Connacht variant and I think it's Gaeilig in Ulster.
To answer your original question though, is "Gaeilge" pronounced as "gale-guh" or "Gwale-guh" - it's neither.
To explain - the initial G is broad and the the L is slender. The 'w' sound that you're perceiving arises, in this case, as a consequence of the movement from the broad G to the slender L.
If you listen to Patchy at 13:12 you'll see his lips barely move as he says the word. Contrast this to the English 'w' where your lips almost come together.
@@davelearnsirish I don't know why, i find it funny that one of the guys he mentioned in this video replied to me.
Thanks a lot!
@@davelearnsirish I always heard it as ga-ayl-guh or with a subtle "w" ~ gwayl-guh. Then I heard the lady on Pimsleur Irish say, "Goy-lainn" and I thought, "WTF ??" lol
Bunaithe go maith, an chríonnacht athá ann go deimhin anso
The crazy thing is, I am not Irish, I am Dutch. But I could hear at once that most people speaking Irish are doing so with an English accent.
Then I came across multiple videos of native Irish speakers and it became even more obvious how STARK of a difference, incredible.
Actual Irish sounds nothing like most people have it taught.
The criticisms made in this video are entirely correct. But on the other hand Irish is not a widely spoken language and there are not that many materials to choose from, particularly outside of Ireland. I don't agree with the commenter who said that pronunciation does not matter, as long as one is understood. It does matter. It may not be practical to entirely bad sources in learning Irish. When a language is obscure and dying out one has to, to a certain extent, use whatever resources he can. I think that the best approach is to study the language with the sources available, keeping in mind with the poor ones that they are poor and that much incorrect information will have to be corrected later.
I'm learning 4 languages on Duolingo Irish being one of them I'm focusing more on German right now though, always willing to learn when I make mistakes...
I think in a way if you're just learning a language, and you just want to learn the basics you're going to find and follow who ever you can learn from even if it's not necessarily the correct pronunciation...
If you want proper pronunciation you're more likely to look deeper for people who teach the proper pronunciation...
The first 3 you mentioned I actually follow, 2 of them I have unfollowed though, the others you mentioned I searched for and started following...
Unwillingness to learn is a put off, Molly is the only one of the first 3 you mentioned I still follow, but her unwillingness to do better is a bit of a put off and the other 2 defo is a put off...
Yeah, we are talking about different levels:
Someone just wants to learn the basics while someone wants to master the language and in the second case the right pronunciation does matter, of course
the reality is that the pronunciation errors are so bad amongst many of these people that you will not even acquire the basics, e.g. if you do not obey the broad and slender distinction there is no way to distinguish between leabhar and leabhair, i.e. you can't even tell if something is singular or plural
not knowing basic pronunciation impairs other areas of the language, in essence if you don't know the simplest things about it then you don't know the language, really
@@aduantas Or "leabhar", "labhair" or "leabhair", it goes on forever. Thanks for pointing this out, as until you know about such dynamics it sounds like bad pronunciation would not matter, but as you point out my complaint is about these compromised dynamics of syntactic differentiation caused by omitting basic phonemes in natural speech, rendering it unnatural and compromising mutual comprehension between the interlocutors.
@@aduantas Absolutely! Maybe I didn't express what I meant by "basics", I think I rather meant that kind of Irish when the person doesn't even know (or doesn't care) that the pronunciation is bad, including someone who uses Duolingo, since the pronunciation in it in many cases is anglicized, too.
Sadly, in our reality, someone who speaks English with a thick Russian accent is considered Russian, while someone who speaks Irish with a thick English accent is considered, well... Irish.
@@legonlavia I believe nowadays the Duolingo audio is a native Connacht speaker, in fairness. I think Duolingo is a useful adjunct to other learning methods (but not enough by itself)
Don’t get me started on Duolingo
Is olc cás mhúineadh na Gaeilge ó thaobh na foghraíochta dó, go bhfóire Dia orainn
Are you forgetting our dialects because I am from munster and your pronunciations sound off to me? Thank you for your videos
My pronunciations in this video sound off to you?
This video was done in English, you are aware, right?
My pronunciation of English doesn't sound Munster to you?
I don't see how that's relevant to anything, really.
I don't quite know if you're praising or criticising me for not pronouncing my English like somebody from Munster.
If I knew which I could maybe try harder to imitate maybe a Cork accent, not difficult, actually.
@@patchy642 ah calm down! You gave an example yourself with Muire! You really shouldn't be a teacher, your ego is to delicate. I wasn't saying your pronunciation wrong, just that the one you were saying was wrong sounded right to me 🤣
@@katooloughlin to be fair, the way you worded it was confusing. i wasn't sure what you meant either
@@WGGplant ok fair point
Can you verify if an account “The Irish Exile” is accurate? He seemed very good. Go raibh maith agat!
I believe we've discussed this in these comments already.
"Irish Exile" does indeed have great visual, written content in his videos.
The problem is the audio is incorrect, as his pronunciation is wrong.
He's contacted me and now started taking some lessons, to hopefully redo the audio for all his videos.
In the meantime I recommend you watch them with the sound silenced, or even go to the trouble of asking any proficient speaker you know to pronounce all the elements for you, maybe do you an audio for yourself.
The Irish Exile videos for now are useful visually, for reading their content.
The pronunciation on them, like nearly all Gaelic content currently on UA-cam, is abysmally incorrect.
My teacher is John Handy of Irish Language Learners Institute. Are you familiar with his work? I enjoy his classes, but I want to make sure I am getting a proper education. One concern is that he teaches "Dia is Muire dhuit" as the response to "Dia duit", as you mentioned. GRMA!
Can't imagine why they wouldn't take pointers from such a charmer!
Great video loved it
Thank you so much! I was raised in a bilingual household (English/Spanish) and therefore grasp the nuances necessary to express oneself successfully in different languages, as well as the need to be unafraid of exposure in order to learn. Irish is challenging in the US without immediate native speaking sounding boards. The last thing I want is to be learning goofy pronunciations. If I sound odd in a language, let it be because my syntax isn't fluid yet.
I really appreciate that you not only dogged the bad influences out there but pointed learners in promising directions as well. You've got a new subscriber. I haven't been on Bite-size in months, I posted a comment that could not possibly be construed as offensive in any way and it was removed from their very lightly attended livestream.
Also, I am very new but did notice among the channels you mentioned the vast discrepancy in pronunciation of even basic greetings, always casually written off to dialect. While I knew deep down dialects shouldn't be strong enough to affect base phonetics, (I find several languages fairly intelligible as a product of knowing Spanish, yet simultaneously can have trouble with a given Spanish accent. I think anyone who speaks languages can get that phenomenon.) I was trying to resolve that apparently Irish was just completely imprecise dependent on individual accent, or alternately so varied as to have non mutually intelligible dialects like that. Mystery solved.
I'm oddly glad I had not become any more "knowledgeable" yet. Knowledge is power. Thanks again.
Can you explain your pronunciation of Muire? It sounds like you are saying "moyshuh". What is the rule that gives that pronunciation? I agree that the usual "murruh" is wrong. The 'r' should be rolled in my opinion as they do in Scotland.
Don’t worry about Patchy. He is far from “correct Irish” authority that he thinks he is. The way you are pronouncing Muire is fine
There is a funny book called Béal Bocht. It’s a satire. In it an academic from Germany comes to the Gaeltacht looking for the “Best” Gaeilge - he ends up recording a piglet squealing and mistakes the piglet’ noises for “Authentic” Gaeilge
So he brings the recording back to the best university in Germany and they give him an award for finding the best Gaeilge - before they set up a committee to try to see if they can gather any sense or meaning from the recording.
It’s a satirical joke that Patchy could also be the butt of:. “He understood that good irish is difficult - and the best irish is nearly unintelligible”
“Thuig sé go mbíonn an dea-Ghaeilge
deacair agus an Ghaeilge is fearr beagnach dothuigthe. “ - Án Béal Bocht
I wondered about that one, too. I've grown up learning Connacht Irish (though we had a mixture of Leinster/Munster taught teachers so pronunciation wasn't always consistent in primary and secondary school), but it was always Muire - mwireh or mwirah depending on the teacher.
It's the pronunciation I've heard in the Gaeltacht in Galway - in An Spidéal, in mass trí Ghaeilge further out...
Never once was it pointed out to us by teachers even there that this pronunciation is incorrect - when we're there to learn and develop our skills in Irish.
If it's a mispronunciation and the people who grow up trí Ghaeilge primarily don't correct it, where does one go to learn Connacht Irish? If it's an acceptable/accepted pronunciation, is this channel actively discouraging learners from even trying to speak with whatever Irish they have acquired?
Is fearr Gaeilge bhriste ná Béarla cliste, as the saying goes.
Ideally, Gaeilge cliste as the norm would be fantastic, but sure we have to start where we are...
YESYESYES, yeees, finally
No English "r"!!
About "Gaeilge i mo chroí", there was a video "conversation as Gaeilge le Seán" and I commented on their pronunciation, Seán replied to me "maybe you want to make your channel which will be better", I didn't say a think about Molly's channel...
Yeah, I made a criticism of her conversation with a native Ulster speaker. I said something along the lines of if English filler words such as "you know", "I mean", "so", "like" would sound weird during a chat in French, then why should it not be any different in Irish? Why is that we have to put up with this cheap, overly Anglicised run down of the native Irish language? Has it not suffered enough down the years to not have to go through further indignities when it comes to its revival?!
There is nothing purist about insisting on correct pronunciation. I cannot believe these big UA-cam channels are so thin-skinned, all I was doing was being constructive. As always, there excuse is "Oh, this is how it is now" or "plenty native speakers do this",
I know that I have Scottish heritage with 9 bloodlines in my family. There's a possibility that I may have Welsh, Irish, and maybe Scandanavian and Norweigan heritage.
Scandinavian includes Norwegian.
So, British and Scandinavian, basically.
Yes, Irish Gaelic is always an option, as it is still a living language, just about.
@@patchy642 oops. 🤦🏼♂️🤣
ua-cam.com/video/oIokUII7LX0/v-deo.html&t Is this video an accurate guide to Irish language pronunciation? I have watched it multiple times, all the way through, assuming that it was accurate, but I cannot be sure.
@@paulbustion1291
I've just had a listen, and while not quite pleasantly surprised, I found her pronunciation not as catastrophic as most of such content on UA-cam.
She was getting more than half of the sounds right.
But unfortunately she was also getting some wrong.
(For example, when she thought she was saying "i nDoire", what she was actually saying was "anuraidh".)
Better than most, but still way short of correct.
This is unfortunate.
Had she contacted me before making the video, she would have surely been saying every Gaelic phoneme perfectly correctly.
As is, I calculate she gets about 75% of them right.
Tá cainéal ag Dane ar tiomáint freisin atá iontach! Is mór an trua é go bhfuil a fhoghraíocht Gaeilge lochtach mar is teagascóir den scoth é.
Are they definitely mistakes or are they dialect differences? Ive lost count of how many times people have told me my pronunciation of Dia Duit (gee-uh ditch) was wrong. Its actually the correct pronunciation in the Ulster dialect.
@@greyswandir2807
You've clearly not listened to all of what I said in the video.
I emphasised that I'm talking about actual, gross, minimal pair mispronunciations, what we could also call phonemic misrepresentations.
Is rud tabhachtach é seo a rádh, mar ní thaitníonn an coinceipt seo le pobal na (nua)gaeilge ar na mallaibh. Ach is fíor é, agus ná bí ag éisteacht le BLOC TG4 fosta.
I'm trying to learn in Duolingo but they keep switching back and forth between Irish Gaelic and other forms of dialects inside of Irish language. Then when I use a translator to try to clarify which one they're actually using it's still as stupidly vague. It's still just says Irish Gaelic or Gaelic with no other descriptors why can't people just get it together?! Who is allowing these jokesters to keep screwing up the Irish language. Also if there's a standard way that they're teaching in Irish schools to speak Irish in Ireland is it actually safe to learn it that way? Seeing as it might just be their standardized version? I'm looking for an actual Irish understanding so that I can help carry this language on in my families line as a spoken language that we speak alongside English also, and often. But I've been continually frustrated by the people online who claimed to be from Ireland or who are Irish or who live in Scotts land or because they went and took Irish language classes and they can't even all agree upon what to call this language. It just seems like a lot of stupidity when it comes to this language. Some people are saying it's Gaelic other people are saying it's Gaelic some people are saying you have to call it Irish only other people are saying it's Irish Gaelic when you try to learn it online at the Irish Gaelic all the time when you try to learn it online through interpreter apps it'll say Irish or Gaelic or or Golic? Isn't there a way to take the most original irish-speaking that we can and make all the other nonsense go away? Is it really this loosey-goosey in language apps with no oversight? Coat could I technically say that French is pronounced whatever way I feel like it's pronounced? Probably not. But what is this with a Irish language app. Even the ones who claim to know the Irish language. There are three dialects and when anyone goes to learn any of them the apps take Liberties and decide to mix them all up together and throw in a little Scottish Gaelic?
Hi Patchy, I live in Ulster and people say "Mura" for Muire, is your pronunciation one of the southern dialects or is Mura just incorrect altogether? thanks in advance
Incorrect altogether.
Irrespective of dialect.
Thanks for enquiring.
Are you referring to people from Belfast?
Excuse my presuming, but I've been hearing Belfast people for years now, believing they're speaking Gaelic, usually on the Gaelic radio and television stations, often shouting or growling, but in all these years of having them grating on my ears with their atrociously wrong pronunciations, there's only one Belfast person I've ever heard who speaks in correct, what in Gaelic we call "sweet", Gaelic.
His name is Ronan.
Guess what!
He's a student of mine, and now pronounces the language better than even the renowned writer and Gaelic scholar Doctor A.J. Hughes, previously the only Belfast person who I could listen to without grinding my molars together.
Ronan now speaks like a true Gael, correctly and softly spoken, unhurried, like many seeped in generations of deepest, dampest Donegal.
And I've other students of Ulster Gaelic not far behind him on that same journey.
@@patchy642Thats the same in Donegal, everyone says it like that in the gaeltachts
@@ShaneMcFerran_
Everyone except those who speak Gaelic correctly, which unfortunately is often no longer the majority.
@patchy642 It's just a bit of an accent though, it's not a new word, it's just how people shape their letters based on where they are from, it's the same for all langauges, but I do get what you mean.
@@ShaneMcFerran_
You don't get what you mean yourself, as it seems you don't understand.
Let's see. . .
Imagine if people speaking English said "light" when what they believed they were saying is "right" (this does actually happen).
Should we now conclude that it's a new word?
Or is it still fair, if old-fashioned, to realise that they're just saying it wrong.
Which is not a problem, until these people then decide to teach new learners of English to pronounce "right" as "light", and every other word with an R pronounced like an L?
Would that be a good way to teach people English?
That's what's happening with Gaelic, and you want to normalise it.
A new word?
No, a new, and now incomprehensible, language.
I'm trying to learn. How do I learn from you?
What is your opinion of BitesizeIrishGaelic?
Edit: well you addressed my questions! And I definitely need your help.
I came across Rosie a few weeks ago, and yeah you're absolutely right about Molly(nothing against her personally), by I'm African American with absolutely no experience with Irish as a language, and I could tell something about her Irish was off, sounds like her pronounciations are based on how things are pronounced in English.
How can I learn with you?
Go rabh maith agad ar son an fhíseáin seo. Tá lúthgháir orm ag feiceáilt nach bhfuil mé 'm'aonar... Ní thuigim cad chuighe a bhfuil daoiní ag teagasc fuaimniughadh na Gaedhlic nuair nach bhfuil fuaimniughadh na Gaedhlic acu féin.
Thank you thank you thank you for including channels you recommend, and for writing them out in the description! There's not much worse than when a person only criticizes and provides no alternatives. 🙏 Go raibh maith agat!
Something I often hear from the older generation is that the Irish I speak that I was taught through gaelscoils both primary and secondary, is different than the Irish that they know. Really none of this pronunciation stuff is the be all end all, dialects change and languages develop. If you're not over 40, or it's not your first language, chances are you don't have these "proper" pronunciations. Considering our history there are very few true "native speakers" nor are there many of them teaching the older ways of speaking the language. I think it's one of those terms that's treated a bit too preciously, I'm an Irish person who's spoken Irish since I was 5 years old, would I not be considered a native speaker? What it boils down to is do we want to split hairs about pronunciation when the language is clinging to life (and every corner of the country speaks it differently anyway), or do we embrace the modern way of speaking it and just be glad people are interested.
There is a difference between having somewhat of a 'foreign' accent when speaking a language that you are not native in, and outright not even trying to use *any* of the sounds correctly, and being hostile to correction by native speakers. You would never dare do that when learning any other language. Of course languages change but I would think some of this stuff would be the bare minimum. No one is asking learners to have perfect pronunciation. We talk about this language as if it is already dead and there aren't tens of thousands of native speakers who would be gold standard primary sources of the language.
@@kalleG_ I agree with you and the author of this video that it is bad that poor pronunciation is being taught. But there are not that many sources to go to learn the language, since it is currently declining, beggars cannot be choosers, I would not entirely avoid channels like Dane's in trying to learn the language. I would avoid learning pronunciation from them, but they are still useful on grammar and vocabulary.
Go n-éirí foghlaim na hÚcráinise leat, a Phatchy! Це гарна та цікава мова. :)
Tá an Rúisis i bhfad níos áille agus níos suimiúla, is dócha, toisc méid litríochta atá scríofa i Rúisis - níl puinn litríochta claisicí san Úcráinis - i Rúisis do scríodh a húdair féin sa 19ú haois déag....
Don't get bogged down with grammar or pronunciation it's more important to be able to form sentences and express yourself. That's my opinion, Irish taught in our schools growing up was way too stressed about making sure we knew grammar. Led to most of us not being able to speak Irish at all.
Go raibh míle maith agat Patchy
I wouldn't mind some constructive criticism if you wouldn't mind reviewing my Irish
Is Irish language decentralized? Is this why all of this confusing back-and-forth amongst a bunch of different Irish people? Is there Pride so strong? Do they care so little for the language? Or did they just not grow up speaking it naturally. And if so does that mean they learned it wrong themselves but don't realize that because it was from a place like the UK standard Irish language 101 xcetera.
The Irish government started trying to standardize Irish back in 1922 with the Irish Free State. Honestly, with the advent of urbanization and media proliferation (newspapers, radio, internet) we're probably going to see the emergence of a New Modern Irish with the strong influence of English phonology. Keep in mind, I'm a Yank, so my opinion matters as much as a snowball in Hell, but that's honestly what I think. Languages change. French was standardized in the 18th century. The advent of radio in the USSR lead to a great "dialect leveling" such that Russophones from one end of the USSR to the other started sounding alike. It is what it is. You can't make a river flow backwards.
Aon seans ann caint leat am eicint? Tá mé ag smaoineamh ar físeanna youtube a chrochadh suas ag díriú ar an nGaeilge a fhoghlaim, mar sin is ag iarraidh caint ghearr leat, comhairle uait atá mé, mura miste leat. Ní ag iarraidh daoine a chur ar strae a bheinn féin. Is mise Pól.
@@teangaire
Oileán Thenerife,
An Spáinn,
An Afraic.
Go mbeannaí Dia duit, a Phóil.
Is mise Páirín.
Ba bhreá liom caint a bheith againn, muise, am ar bith a thogrófá.
Bí i dteagmháil liom.
Le gach dea-ghuí.
Páirín Phádraig Thomáis Ó Raghallaigh.
An Ghaeilge Mhuigh Eo Abú!
Go raibh maith agat
Gaeilge i mo chroí (Molly) Could your criticism be that she's speaking the Ulster dialect?
No.
My criticism is that she's NOT speaking the Ulster dialect.
I love the Ulster dialect, and hearing it well spoken.
Molly makes a very shoddy attempt at speaking it, but it's definitely not correct Ulster Gaelic she's speaking, although she IS getting slightly better, at a snail's pace.
Had she taken up my offer two years ago to instruct her, I'm sure she now WOULD be speaking decent Ulster Gaelic, which she would have started getting right within a matter of three or four sessions with yours truly.
But no, she's still saying things like "le chaéile" instead of "le chéile", "teá" instead of "tá", and many other such horrible mixing up of consonants.
I actually teach Ulster Gaelic.
All my students within a month from starting are pronouncing everything better than Molly.
I don't know why she doesn't just learn to say the correct sounds.
They're NOT difficult.
It's been years now, and she's still pronouncing so many phonemes just pure wrong.
Molly is a native speaker from donegal though.
Molly is not a native Irish speaker and she doesn't hide that fact.
@@doyler78 no I meant native speaker as in went through the school system in Ireland and was taught it at a young age. I didn't mean she's from a Gaeltacht. Native just implies you were born somewhere.
@@doyler78 although she is from Donegal and Irish seems to be pretty strong in Donegal and Galway/Connemara compared to other parts of the island.
@@danielofinan5071 A native speaker of a language is someone who was brought up in a language and their main interactions are in that language. Molly herself very specifically said she is not a native speaker of Irish. It's a specific thing. That's the only point I'm making.
In reading some of the formal linguistic information that is out there, it is abundantly clear that the scholars in the field agree that there is no "standard" Irish pronunciation per se, just a whole lot of accents and regional dialects which haven't managed to knock off the other dialects (yet--just you wait and see!). There are, however, broad similarities that can be studied. However, there also appear to be as many ways of pronouncing Irish as there are Irish people, and at least twice that many opinions on the subject, all of them disparaging of the 20,000,000 other opinions.
Not true.
Unless you're referring to Irish English.
In the video I'm referring to the teaching of Irish Gaelic, a language which has a phonetic dichotomy consonant system of contrasts, whereby each consonant uttered can clearly be heard as broad or slender.
My main complaint is that these so-called teachers ignore this and other intrinsic and essential features of the phonology of what is relatively a very unified language, if we're referring to Irish Gaelic.
Whatever formal linguistic information you've read I believe is surely misguided.
Well channel teaching is about $ ... Hehe..
The same problem occurs with all languages in western nations now ,with the only exception of finnish in Finland proper.
But pronounciation of words from other languages can be hard.
You need 25-40 years to pronounce norwegian right as an immigrant , and another 10 to further master the local dialect where you are at.
I worry much more about how western world citizens younger than 28 do not know syntax, grammars and spelling in their own first language anymore.
I am Irish, Mhùira soundl like :weira.;the h is pronounced like 17:31 W. Slàn leath, h is silent.
@@liamdowling9122
I've no idea what you're trying to convey in this message.
Would it be possible for you to redo it using clear, plain English, so as to understand what you meant to say?