Beethoven Sucks At Music
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- Опубліковано 13 сер 2020
- There are no Great Composers.
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For centuries, we've been told that some composers are just special. Their work is divinely inspired, and their gift for music is unrivaled. Together, these composers comprise the Western Canon of classical music, and their names are spoken with reverence. Beethoven. Mozart. Bach. But... do they deserve it? Are they actually that good, or has history been lying to us the whole time? It's complicated. Let's break it down.
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Some additional thoughts/corrections:
1) To be clear, you're allowed to like Beethoven! Lots of people do, and if you find his music meaningful and important I don't want to (and can't) take that away from you! But isn't it a bit weird that we've constructed a system where that's the only option?
2) Also, since I'm not sure I was clear enough on this point, I think DAMN is a very good album.
If I already on the page and register, but I don't have a credit target right now, if I already on the link I still have the opportunity?
Man, that sponsor plug was smooth AF.... (video was great too)
Great work, keep it up!
Great video! Some thoughts: If Beethoven had been a bad composer, say, if his 9th symphony used only two chords, he wouldn't have been part of the canon. It seems unreasonable to deny that aesthetic quality played some role in canon formation, just as it's unreasonable to deny that cultural factors also played a role. I also doubt the idea that there is *one* widespread use of the canon, as you implied by saying it's used as a gatekeeping device and not as a means for achieving musical quality. I agree that gatekeeping uses of the canon should be sharply critiqued, and I am on your side in that respect. Few things frustrate me as much as classical music lovers who look down on other kinds of music. But I think a more complete picture of the canon needs to acknowledge its use by practicing musicians as an impetus for and precondition of musical creativity. We don't create music ex nihilo. A canon, or canons if you prefer, allows us to enter into a musical tradition and develop it through contesting it. A tradition, in an important sense, is comprised of contestations of that tradition. The classical canon was formed by composers who, in various ways, went beyond and against the ideas of their predecessors. It is this side of canon formation that I think your video misleadingly leaves out. I agree with the gist of your video, I just wish it painted a more complex picture of canon formation. But I'm glad your video will spur conversations about this important topic!
great video!! i agree the canon is an ugly beast as it is.
@@m.l.pianist2370 I didn't go to music school, but I did take piano lessons with a couple different teachers over the span of about five years. They both heavily pushed the idea that Beethoven, Bach, Brahams, etc. were the greatest of all time. I didn't know enough at the time to contest that, so I believed it too despite none of their music resonating with me especially well. I thought there was something wrong with me, like I had bad ears or I wasn't smart enough to "get" the music. I think the point 12tone is making is that this type of attitude is pervasive in music education and popular understanding of music despite the fact that the composers that are on the list were simply, as he put it, at the right place at the right time.
You say that aesthetic quality had to play a role, but how do you define what's good "aesthetically?" It's purely subjective whether a piece of music is "good." Complexity doesn't make a piece of music good, nor does simplicity. Consonance and dissonance can either be a good thing or a bad thing. A song can be great with or without lyrics or whether it has twenty key changes or zero. When you sit down and actually define "good," you'll realize that you can't because you can't describe something that's subjective using objective terms.
Furthermore, I need to repeat 12tone's point that all of the composers in the Western Classical Music canon are white male German composers from a relatively specific time period. I'm going to assume that you agree that it's not a simple coincidence that all the "best" composers fit this description, so you have to admit that time, geography and culture played a significant part in choosing these composers. No one is really arguing that Beethoven was a *bad* composer, but it's completely valid to question whether he is a good composer and especially if he's one of the greatest of all time.
idk why anyone would disagree. beethoven hasn't uploaded a single piece for 200 years ffs the man is slacking
Daniel Ek approves of this comment
Facts he could have been the next big thing
We all get those dry spells every once in a while.
You must have missed the latest album he did with 2Pac.
Agree, unsubbed
Beethoven: Canon
Mozart: Canon
Vivaldi: Canon
Tchaikovsky: Cannon
I see what you did there...
This made my day😆😆
Underrated comment
Tchaikovsky was a little dyslexic but he had the right spirit
Hahahahaha Tchaikovsky go brrrrrrrrr
To be honest, Beethoven was pretty good, but his 808s didn't hit hard enough for me
Bro i died at this comment 😭😭😭😭😭🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I think he was side chaining them too much
He shouldn't have used reverb on them, but you really can't blame him considering it was like 50 years ago and he probably just didn't know better
When a youtuber says "but that's a topic for another video", you know they'll never make that video 😢
It's the poorest, cheapest and dirtiest trick in the youtube video making book for sure 😢
Adam Neely did a good video about Schenker so you could check that out
And if they do it's usually on curiosity stream haha
Unless it's Terrible writing advice, lol.
unless it's MatPat. you know that boy is gonna come back... he always comes back
apparently, Beethoven didn't watch "How to not suck at music" by Adam Neely
hahahahaha-gold!!!
“Music sucks because it doesn’t have timber.”
He didnt put the vocals and the synths in the same key
But he didn't use Eb11, therefore he was good at music.
But he did probably write his music at A=432Hz
My only complaint, especially as you're left handed is that you drew Hendrix playing right handed, I mean come on
@John Verne of course
@John Verne A room full of mirrors, surely?
He’s been dead over 40 years who cares
Wasn't he able to play lefty and then just flip the guitar over mid-song and play righty?
@@ceilidh169 that's not how guitars work, the strings would be facing your belly if you did that
"The Cannon has always been political"
Tchaikovsky: Wait, what's this now?
Ok, now imagine Shostakovich to be complying with politics from his time.
Although there's a slight difference between "greatest that has ever lived" and "sucks".
There's also the use of hyperbole to make a point.
@@flatblack7406 which comes off as disingenuous and clickbait-y
@@flatblack7406 and he even says at the end of the video that beethoven doesn't actually suck at music
Oh, so he is SOOOO great? Name EVERY piece he made.
Exactly.
I love this channel, but that was a cheap clickbait and I feel cheated.
"He was in the right place at the right time and history rewarded him for it." My man just pretty much summed up fame for ya..
summed up the universe since the big bang
And he was a master in business.
Dont listen to this stupid video. Beethoven was recognised as the greatest all across Europe by those who were educated in music. Men who were far smarter and knowledgeable than this uploader.
The only problem with this is that there were tons of people in the same place and the same time. There were princes, people of nobility and men of renown. How many of their names would be more recognizable to someone on the street today between them or Beethoven? Not many I'd presume.
What he said in the video is true, but it also lacks an important component: "He was the right person in the right place at the right time." How many other people do you think you supplant in his place at that time and they would have had the same legacy? Very, very few.
@@rossconnolly3402 This channel is a more contemporary music channel. I don't expect him to just give the praise Beethoven needs. He is pretty annoying too, the way he approaches music is just awkward and he usually speaks with floating terminology instead of concrete examples. Adam Neely for example, teached me a lot about jazz music theory and music theory in general. This channel is an utter garbage.
14:15 the most subtle rick roll of all time
how
@@dakotaashe3184 the 7 midi notes he wrote follows a peculiar pattern 🤡
@@notkiji which part tho, the intro, the vocal melody etc?
@@dakotaashe3184 chorus vocal melody '-'
@@notkiji wtff
It's clear that Beethoven was exceptional, even if his importance was also inflated by German musicologists. We have quotes from Schubert talking about Beethoven as someone God-like even before this rise in nationalism. Beethoven was so important that his death caused a divide in the classical music world, the conservatives and New German School both believing themselves to be the correct answer to Beethoven's life. Clearly, Beethoven was amazing in his own right before his importance was blown up in later decades.
I agree. In the social circles I'm in, classical music is not seen as "high class" but pretentious, but I enjoy Beethoven anyway. His music works as low art that's nice to listen to and I'd argue that's much more impressive than any pedestal the rich can put him on.
@@PragmaticAntithesis lol "low art", wtf are you talking about? Beethoven sparked an era of music that spread well beyond pretentious aristocrats and is still taught to this day for a reason. You clearly are not a musician.
sure but that's besides the point. There's certainly someone less deserving of the canon that has been propped up by German musicologists
He was a huge influence on subsequent composers - so his importance was not "blown up" in later decades.
@@joniii_W
Idk I’ve been exploring Beethovens actual obscure compositions and I’ve found many sonatas and piano pieces that are just magical that show a good understanding of how to make music that inspires
His piano sonatas are amazing. I especially like 8 and 15.
I'm a jazz musician and I started with Beethoven thinking he was overrated and could never be as good as everyone says. Then I really listened to his complete works and I must say he's really really that good, it's crazy how efficient and creative he was. And also looking at his context you can see how innovative he was, how he changed the course of classical music and how he battled and won trough all the struggles that came in his life. He's our hero in the western classical music world.
Compare it also to other fields, we all know Einstein, Picasso, The Beatles.. even if we are not familiar with their work. If you delve really deeply into their areas and historical contexts they definitely earn their place on the zeitgeist.
I think there is a lot that Beethoven wrote that is genuinely overrated in my book however I agree with you and listening to stuff like the Grosse Fugue ( honestly could've been written in 1925 not 1825) gives you an idea of how great and innovative he really was.
Tiago, I know that feeling so well. His immense reputation is to his detriment. I listen to all my Beethoven CDs in the car, and I love his music for its own merit. I would love to have an earnest conversation about the Archduke trio or the op. 110 sonata, but I feel like any praise I have for Beethoven is prejudged by others as fawning over someone inherently regarded as great with no merit.
So it makes perfect sense that you would go into Beethoven imagining that he's overrated only to then be pleasantly surprised to be wrong. Genuine appreciation for his music in the modern day is a battle against the grassroots-esque mentality of "down with the dogma and hubris of status-seekers who listen to classical music in bad faith!"
Agreed. Strip away identity and judge the music entirely on the merits and you will probably still have some of the Baroque, Classical, and Romantic masters show up on the list. Bach, Mozart, and Schubert might have gotten a little bump from being "old white guys" but to dismiss their greatness entirely because guilt over cultural exclusivity as opposed to the merit of the music seems to be falling into the same trap of dismissing music simply because of who wrote it. Haydn on the other hand was a hack who did just get a bump for being Austrian.
But in the same regard you are inside the system that created the canon so your opinions are distorted by it no matter how well intentioned you are. One would need a genuinely independent reviewer to see for sure. Some un-contacted islanders, aliens or AI!
I've always been a proponent of the idea that music exists to evoke emotion, so if you like a piece that in itself is justification for it being good. I'm a HUGE Mendelssohn nerd and I'll freely admit that his oeuvre isn't the most complex or revolutionary in classical music, but it SLAPS. And at the end of the day that's all it needs to do.
what he is trying to say is that its subjective, no doubt Bach and Beethoven slap, but other Asian and African composers slap too in their cultures.
the problem comes when we teach it as GENERAL music theory, and just european style of music. I for once only learnt music this european way and didnt learn other ways while I wish I could have.
@@ShadowD2C What is the alternative? Do you learn Chinese authors in a French literature class? Western classical is Western classical, Chinese music is Chinese music. The principles are totally different and you need to spend years and years to build any mastery of it - and learn Mandarin, Chinese history & culture, literature, philisophy, etc. I wish that other cultures would do more to preserve and promote their classical traditions, but that's not up to us.
@@jpiccone1 Im not sure about the chinese traditions, but for example guitar which I learnt the western way is most defently derived from middle eastern music theory and their oud (lute) scales. The issue just lies with the naming when youre learning it should be taught as western classical or smth so you dont internalize it as the basic of everything
For me, music has to move me. Otherwise I like it & forget about it
@@jpiccone1 except it’s just presented as “music theory”. Not “18th century European music theory”, but simply “music theory”, and it’s held as some sort of objective measure of musical worth when it’s just…not.
As Spotify's CEO recently said "It's not enough” to release albums “every 3-4 years”." - so yeah Beethoven is waaaaaay behind
But that's what the Spotify CEO thinks...
@@bachagain1685 Don't you know? Spotify is the council that governs all music.
The fact that this video still exist, is proof that Beethoven didn't see this video.
Thanks for your input yıldırım arda akbaş, who you voting for this election cycle if you don't mind
Im not a citizen of the usa
Don’t worry he’d have to decipher all the little drawings to understand that he was being insulted
No he wouldn't, he was deaf not blind
wait
@@rafaeldiehl8553 I forgot how being deaf works don't mind me
it’s called pictography!!!
He could just turn on captions, come on
"The cannon has always been political"
*draws astronaut pointing gun*
amazing
oh my goddd i missed that
7:57
The word is 'canon', not 'cannon'.
canon noun (1) can·on | \ ˈka-nən
4a: an accepted principle or rule
b: a criterion or standard of judgment the canons of good taste
c: a body of principles, rules, standards, or norms
[Late Greek kanōn, from Greek, model] : a contrapuntal musical composition in which each successively entering voice presents the initial theme usually transformed in a strictly consistent way
Have a great day!😃👍
@@williaml.6922
cannon cannon cannon cannon cannon
@@user-qd7zb4wm9b you got him 👌🏾
can
This whole conversation hits a lot of musicians who think the sheer quality of their music will be enough to gain an audience. Most artists hate the idea of marketing. Does great music rise like cream to the top on its own? Maybe some of it. The music industry would argue that they can make the public like anything with enough radio play, marketing and promotions. Some of yesterday's favorites are unknowns today.
I loved Billy Joel's "Shameless" when I got his album Storm Front. I was blown away. It seems like Garth Brooks felt the same and he was equally shocked it never appeared on the radio much less the charts. So he recorded a version which skyrocketed to the top of the charts. The song has become a part of the country canon and the canon of popular music in general. The difference? One person marketed it and the other didn't. You would think the sheer quality of the song would carry it but it didn't. But the big question is: Which artists and songs did history mistakenly forget and which ones did the industry push that should have been forgotten??
People think of The Doors and Queen as some of the greatest acts of the late 60s and 70s, but it wasn't until various movies came out that featured them that the public re-discovered them. I don't think they had that statue until the movies came out. The Val Kilmer one about the Doors and Bohemian Rhapsody was featured in at least two popular movies over the last couple decades.
I think it’s a shame Arthur Sullivan genius is rarely recognized. He composed gavotte’s, madrigals, patters, church songs. His graduation piece, The Tempest, is beautiful.
You missed out on the most important argument about why Beethoven wasn't so great "Did Beethoven ever have his picture on a bubblegum card? How can you say someone is great if they never had their picture on a bubblegum card?" Lucy Van Pelt in "A Charlie Brown Christmas"
Solid opinion from the Peanuts gallery.
Ahaha, how in the world did you remember that?
@@rorydillon7572 I have re-watched "A Charlie Brown Christmas" every year since it originally aired in 1965. I was 10 years old at the time.
..maybe the Time is Now...definitely maybe,...call the printers...someone start a go fund me for the cost of....🎼💞🤘
Good grief...
I thought that Mozart was the stereotypical “best classical composer” that people felt were so great. Personally, I love Beethoven and think he’s better than Mozart, but most people I’ve met have thought of Mozart as a prodigy and the Einstein of music.
(+Devin Belver) Just thinking about how Moonlight Sonata and a lot of his pieces are basically metal piano shred solos.
@Devin Belver Mozart's music is certainly *not* simple. Or at least not always. Listen to the finale of the Jupiter if you think that, or an ensemble from one of the Da Ponte operas or the E Flat String Trio (K.563).
I prefer Beethoven too, but they are equally great composers.
Mozarts music isn't necessarily cheerful and simple. ua-cam.com/video/Ui9pyxdVX6Y/v-deo.html
@Devin Belver Your comment just reveals your ignorance of Beethoven and Motzart.. Hahaha "Mozart is used so much for soothing babies" and "Beethoven is DUN DUN DUN DUNNNN" Beethoven almost explored all kind of music in his lifetime, in the end of his life he even created pieces in style wasn't really come recognized untill in the 20th centur, "the Grosse Fuge" I think it was called.
Listen for example to this concerto by Motzart to realize how ignorant you are about his music. ua-cam.com/video/3KHvNDn-o0s/v-deo.html ..And listen to Pathetique to realize that your knowledge about Beethovens music doesn't stretch further then the knowledge of a 5 year old that just introduced his music in pre- school. ua-cam.com/video/iCL5sHzlDOI/v-deo.html
Beethoven copied or was influenced by the aria "ah soccorso" of the first act of Don Giovanni by Mozart for the first movement of moonligth sonata, Check Out the minute 3:50 ua-cam.com/video/6XfkvANfYb4/v-deo.html
Listen to the sixth symphony, put down the fifth and ninth symphonies for a minute. It’s beautiful and peaceful, full of joy upon discovering the beauty of nature. An underrated work.
I find the 7th and 8th more captivating. The 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 9th are all generally accepted as incredible masterworks, the 8th symphony is the real underrated one IMO.
@@stephenwu1524 Funny enough...it's reported thT when asked by Czerny why his 8th symphony didn't receive as much enthusiasm as his 7th, Beethoven said "because the Eighth is so much better" 😂 Also read that he was overall disappointed by the reception! So in a word...Beethoven agrees, lol
The 6th is absolutely not underrated. It's a masterpiece known as a masterpiece 👌
I love the 7th because it delivers.
Relatively short and cool tunes from beginning to end 😎
Im super late to this, but just by the sheer amount of work that classical composers put in their music, especially in those times when live was so difficult. Their passion and dedication is undeniable.
I also think that Beethoven is held in such a high regard is because he pushed musical boundaries - especially in terms of harmony. It was him who pretty much led music from the classical era to the romantic era.
But I hate the romantic era.
Every time a symphony does a piece of something less well known or more "weird" they'll do it alongside a Beethoven symphony or some equivalent. Ultimately they have to sell tickets.
If it were only about that, they wouldn't play new pieces at all.
This is done to 'force' audiences to listen to the new pieces. Put Beethoven on your program and everyone will show up. Then play the new piece they wouldn't come for and people might discover something new they enjoy, or at least be exposed to things outside of Beethoven, Mozart etc. and slowly learn to appreciate new music.
I agree with Daniel Edwards. It’s not a bad thing that this happens. People like what they know and people know Beethoven (or at least those who appreciate classical music). Music is music and let people like what they want and let them discover new things! I think it’s too harsh to criticize Beethoven because the music is actually amazing! But it’s also completely ok and great to discover new music
All of this and so much of our world is just a sliver of what music is. Music is so vast and there’s so much of it around the world. I say just let people listen to what they want to listen! For example there isn’t a valid criticism against one a Hindu who only listens to classical Indian music. There shouldn’t be a criticism against one who only listens to the western classical “canon”
@@Nadav3.0 I'm not trying to criticize anything but I work with an orchestra and ultimately the decisions are financially motivated especially because people are starting to care less and less about classical music the so it's pretty much essential to milk the pieces that will sell yes it also gets more people listening to modern pieces but that frankly isn't the motivation
@@Nadav3.0 not trying to criticize anyone. Love what you love!
This should be retitled "the problem with classical cannon" because you never pointed out what makes Beethoven suck
I agree but then its all about clickbait tbh, can't be too mad
A bombastic title gets clicks.
Then you missed the point of the video. If anything he could have added a question mark at the end, boom, solved. Easy.
I feel like the solution to this is to change the way we think of the canon composers, rather than to shoehorn in a bunch of composers in to make it more inclusive.
The canons were made mostly in Germany to portray mostly German music but was later thought of to represent all music, and since classical music was the music of the upper class, the canon composers were seen as the “fanciest musicians”.
Beethoven was chosen because he not only was a good musician but he also significantly influenced German music, same with the others. The romanticist composers like Chopin and Tchaikovsky are a bit different since they weren’t really “classical” but they are known for having significant influence as well. Since classical and classical-like music (romanticist music) was made in the west, it makes sense that the canon composers would be white, similar to how the most famous jazz musicians or rap artists are black.
Changing the canon list without keeping the classical music and influence aspects would just make it loose meaning. Making the composers be seen as specifically the best classical musicians rather than the best musicians is the best way to make the composers seen with more realistic eyes.
i really dont care who the best composer is or not i just wanna listen to beautiful music and beethovens music is really beautiful to me :)
@LeftRight An opinion cannot be wrong...
That’s interesting, I’ve never heard Beethoven described as beautiful. Music is so subjective!
@@hb712 To be honest if I had to explain to someone what Beethovens music is like beautiful would probably not be the first word I'd use either. I just couldn't find a better word for the point I was trying to make.
Elite Miko
Lol
As a classical musician, this is one thing that frustrates me the most about the culture around classical music. People treat it as a status symbol rather than something to be enjoyed. Music, like any art, is about the experience, and therefore is inherently subjective, so there is no way to definitely crown one composer as "the greatest composer of all time." I knew Beethoven was considered one of the "Big Three," but I honestly had no idea people thought he was definitely the best over the other two, mostly because I've always liked Bach and Mozart more.
In my experience, the classical canon has somewhat been updating over time. Maybe not for everyone, but at least in the sense of "if you want to seriously pursue classical music, these are the composers you need to be familiar with." While there are a significant amount of German composers, there's also a lot of French, Russian, and even American composers as well, though admittedly it's still mostly white men. Even so, that's among the people who actually make the music. I have no idea how it is among communities of people who just listen to it.
The biggest problem that classical music has is the audience. The vast majority of classical audiences consider any work composed in the past 100 years as something to simply endure until they get to the Beethoven or Mozart. It’s utterly depressing and I take my hat off to musicians and more so composers who are willing to put up with such utterly unadventurous and banal listenership.
@@nstrug Seriously, I've met so many audience members who's music history ends with Rachmaninoff or if they're more outgoing maybe even Stravinsky, much less modern composers like Unsuk Chin, Penderecki, Saariaho etc. who are still composing today, its kinda really annoying
@@nstrug I think everyone's confusing the "classical music audience" with the "snobs who are part of the classical music audience."
Yeah this sentiment of Beethoven being the King of Music or whatever was new to me as well
@@aaronhaettenschwiller1626 Because contemporary classical is so avant-garde, like New Complexity, that it will probably take 100 years until the mainstream audiences catch up to its level.
I once insulted Beethoven, claiming only that my best composition is better than Beethoven's worst, and people lost their actual minds.
The mention of how D.A.W.'s are ignored by school honestly made my day. as a mobile producers who specializes in hard bass music like Dubstep, I truly believe that EDM is one of the most forgotten and exiled umbrella genres. If you were to ask "name 5 music genres." or maybe "what music do you listen to?", most would either answer with "Pop, Rock, Metal, Country, and Rap." or "I don't know, whatever is on the radio I guess". and that really sucks, because there are some brilliant people who create amazing music that takes just as long, and just as much effort as other genres.
hell, I decided to try and learn more about music to help me make my own better and be more happy with my final releases by taking a music theory class, and it has barely taught me anything of worth. I mean, it's barely even a music theory class, it's a music history class with occasional theory lessons thrown in. I don't even care about those lessons either though because I'm tired of that class and how much bs and useless info it's been giving me. I really wish that there was some class where one could learn about all 'main' genres of music. I want to learn more about how rock is made, have a lesson about how the vocalist of Gojira controls his voice so well while keeping the intense metal screaming and growling, something about the details in rap numbers, or something as broad as 'lyric writing'.
sorry for the ramble, but thats been really getting under my skin for a while now...Have a nice day, Cheers! ^v^
Neat video. A couple of points, though, where things seemed incomplete:
1. Regarding the short-term nature of pre-19th Century classical music, there is at least one exception, being the tune "L'homme armée", which was constantly re-used in parody masses over quite a long time. I'd be interested in your thoughts on that bit of medieval remix culture.
2. The stuff about nationalism is a bit more complicated than you presented things, since that's a broad umbrella term that covers both racist, jingoistic imperialism and national liberation movements fighting against racist, jingoistic imperialism. In a musical sense, the "nationalist schools" outside of Austria and Germany included a lot of forces who looked to folk music in their area to counter the German domination of classical music (Janacek, Grieg, etc.) and often looked to a broad range of fold traditions (Bizet, Bartok, etc.). So, while Wagner tried to purge all foreign elements from his music, Dvorak went out of his way to incorporate African-American music into his works, but both get classified as "nationalist composers". I'd liken the "nationalist schools" of classical music less to modern white nationalism, and more to 00s hip-hop where, after years of domination by New York and L.A., a whole bunch of local hip-hop scenes started getting mainstream attention, often doubling down up their own local accents and slang as a political statement.
dope comment! esp the 00s hip-hop analogy
I never thought I'd see a historical and cultural parallel between The Mighty Handful and the rise of southern hip-hop, but here we are.
“Mediaeval remix culture” isn't a phrase I'd think I'd ever encounter, but I'm not complaining that I did.
Great comment. As a Czech I like seeing the specific mentions of Dvořák and Janáček; incredibly important musical figures over here, especially the former, nearly on the same level as Beethoven or Bach.
I’d like to point out that fusion jazz is larger in the NY scene as it’s more of a live scene. LA is the production side of music while NY is the live scene
Happened in the 18th century too. Metastasio was set hundreds of time, by people like Handel, Gluck, Haydn, Mozart, Meyerbeer, and even Beehoven and Rossini (though never a full opera)
"So, you like Beethoven? Name ten of his records".
"Well, there was, his Fifth symphony, everyone knows that one, and his first, second, third, and fourth, which was like really cool too, and his, uh... His sixth one! Yeah, that was a great follow up, though his seventh was like not too great but okay. I loved his, uh, his moonlight sonata ones, and that one he didnt finish. Oh yeah, and his ninth."
@@jameswhitley4101 Don't forget the Pathetique Sonata (Opus 13), The Tempest (Opus 31), Apassionata (Opus 57), The Hammerklavier (Opus 106), and my father's favorite, the unnamed Opus 111. :)
@@renegade4dio The Tempest is one of the few Beethoven compositions I genuinely enjoy. Glad to see it mentioned, deserves more attention.
@@photonicpizza1466 It's my 3rd favorite, after Pathetique, and Moonlight. While Moonlight is probably overrated, Tempest is definitely underrated, as you mentioned. ;) I note how all 3 of my favorites are piano sonatas, and if pressed I'd probably list more sonatas before listing a symphony (The 5th of course, followed by the 9th... I guess I'm pretty boringly conventional, and no surprise, the only instrument I can play at all is the piano... and no, I'm not good enough to actually play any Beethoven besides Fur Elise, and even that is a less than good rendition) I don't know where I was going with all this, but it is great to hear from someone who picks out the Tempest instead of Moonlight or the 5th... ;)
Now that I think of it, I don't think I would recognize 5 of his works... I only know the 4 everyone talks about all the time...
This video summed up several of the classes I took in graduate school in a few minutes, well done. Something that wasn't mentioned though, is that almost all of those composers who also ended up canonized in the WAM tradition based their compositional styles on those that came before--a process which came to a hard break in the 20th ce. when musical genres exploded and became much more diversified and democratized. You kind of mention this when you comment on "cultural inertia" of the canon perpetuating itself. But it's a pretty big deal, the study of counterpoint was always one that accumulated around the study of 'good practices' of previous composers, so along with being a cultural phenomenon in his time, Beethoven's legacy was reciprocally reinforced every time a later composer either aspired to his style, or even when they attempted to get out from under his long shadow.
Thank you for the tip on that Trap Production class! I have a skillshare subscription and I'm always psyched when someone smart recommends a class to me.
One thing worth mentioning is how Beethoven's life story fits the trope of the tortured artist very nicely, being tragic and romantic in equal measure. There's a certain mysticism and mythology to the "greatest" composer of all time becoming deaf. It makes him appealing outside of the music itself because it's a very inspirational human story that people can connect to without having an acedemic knowledge of classical music.
This doesn't discount anything mentioned in the video, but it does go someway to explaining why lovely lovely Ludwig is so embedded in the public consciousness.
djggou - true it stands in for esthetic evaluation poorly but provides a mythos for jabbering about it.
Joseph Regan “jabbering” is the Beethoven in the “canon of words” am i right, people??? !!! :)))
@@gazicj did someone say GABBERING???
* plays 5th symphony motif on distorted 909 bassdrums *
(Actually I didn't get your joke, so I just made my own... sry :'( )
That deaf argument needs to stop. While tragic, yes, Beethoven began losing his hearing at a time in his life when he was already at a level where he could simply hear the sounds in his head. That is an amazing skill, but one that any prolific professional composer can aquire. I will say that while his deafness wasn't as much of an issue to his musical ability, it was definitely still a huge influence on his music due to the deep depression that he found himself in.
One of my favorite stories about Beethoven was a letter he wrote that almost served as a suicide note. In it he struggled with suicidal ideation, but the thing that pulled him out was the fact that he was so narcissistic he concluded that the world would suffer without his creativity and music. Thing is, he had the skill and pure talent to back-up his self-aggrandizing XD
@@Soarin_Altiss I'd disagree that "any prolific professional composer" could develop the skill to work only internally with no outside stimuli. No matter your skill and understanding of a medium, hearing/seeing it back is a very different experience to conceiving it. So yes, of course Beethoven was conceiving and composing in his head using his years of experience as reference, but the level and quality he was still able to produce is no easy feat, and isn't something that just anyone can do.
And it still does not detract from the fact that Beethoven didn't hear 'Ode to joy' in the same way that following generations have.
I minored in Musicology (or Music History) in college and one of my BIGGEST complaints was how reductive and limited the set of pieces we studied was.
At the time I was fresh out of high school band where the majority of the works we played were composed by modern composers, including many contemporary composers. So I wrote a very agitated essay for one class that was titled something like "Equal Rights for Band Composers Now!" that was essentially a diatribe about the limited nature of the canon we studied, especially if a composer didn't primarily write for piano or symphony orchestra. I got an A on the essay, but the equivalent of a laugh and pat on the head by my tenured music professor.
Beethoven's 9th is as close to perfect as the symphonic form ever got (IMHO) but it's time to get out of the rut. The fact that Mozart & Haydn dominate an *entire freaking period* of musical composition, like there were only 2 composers in the world, is mind boggling.
I feel precisely the same about Beethoven. It is as if Bach and Mozart (and to a decreasing extent due to politics, Wagner) are the only humans ever to have written a song other than Beethoven, who is generally referred to like he is the only composer in the history of the planet.
I've listened to classical music for over 60 years. I've continued to listen to it because it's the perfect tonic for heart and mind. In my early teens, I was a great proselytizer for classical music. I was young, enthusiastic, naive and learned some hard lessons about the varieties of taste and preference that exist. Rather soon, the proselytizing went away. I found that the person I had to please was myself and this was my goal with listening to music. Why, after all this time, does Brahm's 4th symphony still so deeply move me? I could say the same thing about the last three symphonies of Mozart, Beethoven's 7th symphony or Bach's partitas and sonatas for violin...and this is the tip of the iceberg. Why does classical music, for me, offer hope, beauty, consolation and inspiration? I don't really know, it just does and always will. Something I found about classical music is that you either "get it" or you don't. It's as though you're born with a preference for it. It may be a personality type. Perhaps Jung could explain it. It is also an integral part of European culture and mindset.
For me, classical music has been the greatest of gifts and had enriched my life beyond measure. I couldn't live, in any meaningful way, without it.
Agreed
Eh, if I wanted to hear someone work their way up and down a scale in the most boring and unimaginative way possible, I'd go to an old folks home.
@@OldManShoutsAtClouds Whatever that means. It's like the man said, you either "get it" or you don't.
I get it, i have it, and yes only classical music does it for me. I have both books of wtc memorized. That doesn’t stop me from realizing that my preference for this kind of music was predetermined by the place and people I was born into. I was born into middle class parents who wanted to signal higher class status by sending their kids to piano lessons at an early age, only listened to classical music at home and talked about european paintings and sculptures and literature, even though we are middle eastern. And I don’t know jack shit about the culture of my own country. Am I mad? No. Do I understand that me writing fugues in my spare time was influenced by all these facts? Yes. Only classical music does it for me, as I told before. But I am also cognizant of the fact that classical was the only thing I ever listened to as a kid, and to this day.
Another point about Ludwig was that he was mostly deaf for half of his life. I can't think of another composer who has that disability. Like an Olympic sprinter having one leg
He wasn't born deaf though. He knew what the music he was composing sounded like.
Imagine what will happen in 200 years when someone unearths a hard drive full with youtube "top tenz" videos.....you want canons? here you have'em.
@NTDM 😂
Meh. I’m more of an A.M. Yankovic man myself, so I don’t feel like I have a dog in this fight.
Truly the greatest ever
Yeah. I swallowed the Hendrix pill a long time ago and am still under the influence. I must recuse myself as judge on grounds of nostalgia.
In my long distant past, I played plenty of Beethoven. "Moonlight Sonata, the first movement" was my favorite piece for decades. He's got a LOT out there, and I enjoyed him greatly.
"As was so often the case in the history of classical music, the 19th century happened" LOL
One Hundred Years of the 19th Century Happening
This video is encouraging me to listen to classical/romantic era music and figure out what I actually like. Thank you for making me realize I've just thought Beethoven and company to be great without actually forming that opinion myself.
If you're looking for more modern music that truly innovated and also happens to be more diverse in authorship, look at jazz. It stands on its own as a peer to the greats of classical tradition.
The title of this video has little to do with its content and I wish a more relevant title were chosen instead of clickbait.
Impressionist music as well
Or hip hop, it's also very diverse and innovative
@@marioaviles19 if you have any recommendations that mirror the musicianship in Jazz, I'd love to learn more. I've found the popular music that I've heard to be bland especially from a melodic and harmonic perspective and that has been an obstacle to my appreciation of the genre. I think I am simply ignorant of what is out there, though I concede that I have a strong bias in favor of Western musical practice including the innovations that Jazz brings. That bias may be an insurmountable obstacle but if I can learn to appreciate it I would like to.
@@Fubuki-rt8zs well, I think that what will help you better appreciate this more modern style is by focusing less on the harmonic and melodic material and focus on the other elements of the song. Namely the production. That said, I think you'd get a lot out of Kendrick Lamar's music
@@marioaviles19 Thank you for the recommendation and perspective. I'll check it out and hopefully develop a deeper appreciation or at least better understanding of the genre.
Beethoven had a concert where he premiered the Fifth Symphony (the most famous of all time), the sixth (the Pastoral), and the 4th Piano Concerto (considered one of the greatest ever), and that wasn’t even half of the program!
Leonard Bernstein’s opinion as to why Beethoven’s music was so great is that every note looks to be the right note, as if it had to be there, and couldn’t be changed without lessening the piece.
2:35 just called everyone a poser😂
Begins watching video: Clickbait?
Finishes watching video: Clickbait.
Beethoven had incredible harmonics in his pieces and expressed feeling describing the romantic era barely comparable to anybody else. His works are masterpieces without compare.
Despite that, you are very much right. Most people are just familiar with his name and status, and unfamiliar with the idea and genious of the person, wich is a problem in many ways as you stated; i fully agree.
And i also would like to hear "welcome to thr machine" composed by Beethoven or Händel
Beethoven was great surely, but claiming that he sucks just because people are not that familiar with his music is just ridicilous. The narrator even admits in the video that Beethoven doesn't suck, so the title is just full-blown clickbait.
I don’t see Beethoven as Floydian prog-rock type; that seems more J.S. Bach territory. Ludwig is more Tool or Dream Theater prog-metal
Beethoven was one of the few composers (Monteverdi is the only other one that spring to mind) who changed the course of music. He was an enormous influence on the Romantics, and given that one could hardly throw a stone in early 19th Century Vienna without hitting a composer, it couldn't have all been due to his temporospatial location. I have taken part in a performance of his _Missa Solemnis_ , and defy any other composer, canon or not, to match the near-hysterical ecstasy of the _Gloria_ from that work. Was he the greatest composer who ever lived? Maybe not. Did he write work after work of amazing power, unlike anything before or since? Bet your ass he did.
".. feeling describing the romantic era barely comparable to anybody else" LOL excuse me? Are you insane? Have you ever heard about Chopin? Lol, the harmonical structure of many of Chopin’s pieces are among the grestest ever written. I want you to analyse the harmony on Ballade no 4 of Chopin’s and tell me if there's something remotely close thst Beethoven wrote it on piano. Seriously, your statemant is a joke and shows how much you don't understand musical theory. Beethoven was one of the greats, I am pretty sure about it! But his work on piano means nothing comparing to Chopin’s.
Beethoven has meant a lot to me over the years. He regularly explores tragedy and hope. He’s very versatile through different stages of life. I’ve also really come to enjoy Dvorák, Rossini, and others. I try to branch out and regularly engage with music by composers other than white men. Some of it really resonates me, and some of it doesn’t. Ultimately, I believe that’s okay. If you love Beethoven and want to listen to nothing else, that’s perfectly okay. If you hate Beethoven and he does nothing for you, that’s okay too. Art is subjective. Don’t force yourself to follow someone else’s standards-and don’t force someone else to follow yours. Find what you like, and allow others to do the same. It’s beneficial to branch out sometimes, but you do you.
Mahler
I'm mad at this title! How dare you insult the greatest composer who ever lived!
edit: damn you got me
Even though I agree with most of what you said concerning the Canon (and, must say, it's very evident from a Brazilian perspective due to the evolution of our folk music) Beethoven is too big of a figure to consider it pure accident of right place and time.
His mark was so huge and innovative in classical Western music that the composers of his time wondered whether his works have set the boundaries of musical creation or have opened the door to new paths, thus sparking the War of the Romantics (and before there was a concept of Canon in art). I love his work, and I love as his compositions sound like a crazy fractal mirror maze. They were ground-breaking at his time and still provoke amazement.
I understand the purpose of the video to expose how Canon provokes bias on our opinions on music (and lots of white males earn the recognition). But there are reasons beyond the Canon to deem his works some of the most important for the Western classical music, which are essential to understand how it came to be
Word! Downplaying geniuses is simply forgetting how they've made people feel and ignoring how they've made you feel.
crazy fractal mirror maze is something you'd rarely hear about Beethoven's music, very interesting comparison
Oh? And what are those reasons?
ok, came here because of the title, hopefully it really is about beethoven being bad and not just clickbait
EDIT: interesting video, but i'm still disappointed
Hey, I don't particularly enjoy him either. What you can do is listen to his music and try to identify why you don't like it. Whether it be through music theory, cultural context, etc. It can then easily lead you to music you _do_ like more reliably than just through random discovery, and it's also a pretty neat intellectual exercise.
They didn't say anything about Beethoven. It was more about boring generalizations what is good and what isn't...
@@songfulmusicofsongs yeah i watched the video by now, good video but not what i wanted
@@photonicpizza1466 i'll try to do that eventually then o7
Small world, but yes interesting.
Me: *studies music for 10 years*
Also me: "music has a Canon?"
I just came in to see this video and an ad played the Pastorale Symphony right before
Sweet irony
He's 'Composer of the Week' on BBC Radio 3 every other week all this year (to celebrate the 250th anniversary) and I've been enjoying his back story. :)
HOW DARE YOU ASSUME I WOULD GET MAD?
Take it easy, Ludwig...
Alan Barnett as a viewer and fan... :)
In my music classes we talked a lot about whether what is canon should be canon. We didn't change it but at least learned how to seek out music that wasn't western classical and learned about many different composers in our western music history class. We definitely should have learned about Annamayya though in our class on the art of music!
But I would like to share my experience with Beethoven.
The very first piece of classical I fell in love with was Beethoven's 7th (before that for nonclassical it was a couple of Beatles albums). His Egmont Overture was the second piece I ever played that made me feel my blood vessels dilating, or whatever that process is that makes you feel like you're heating up and near-sweating (the first was shosty 12). Later on in my college orchestra we had to play parts of Beethoven's 4th for conducting students' auditions and every time we played through for each student, it made me want more and more of the piece. Ever since then I noticed that Beethoven out of anyone is the one who wrote music that makes me crave more of it in that way. Of course other music has completely blown me away and given me joy or a journey to hear and play and dance to, and maybe it was this unique setting where I was only given small bits to learn and play, but so far I have only felt this need to be given more from Beethoven.
I feel like another thing that goes overlooked about the canon and the "Great Composers" is the fact that the pieces we associate them with are a very small percentage of their work. They wrote lots and lots of pieces, and only the "best" ones are the ones we associate them with. It makes it more difficult for new composers, who have to, for example deal with EACH of their new compositions being compared with the "best" pieces of Mozart's music that are sorted from ALL of his works, maybe a selection of 10 or 20 well-known pieces out of hundreds of total works. Kinda makes it hard to find your footing when the fifth piece you've written is compared to a hand-selected 1 in 600 piece from another composer. EVERY composer writes good and bad music, and it's a bit of an unfair standard to compare a blossoming composer who only has a few works to someone who's written hundreds or thousands of works to choose the "best" from.
At this point you’re almost begging for Ben Shapiro to have an opinion at you
What do you mean, "almost"?
ahhhhh shit, anotha ben shapiro/12 tone throwdown-i’ve been waiting for this!!!
Yeah we only need another stupid Ben Shapiro argument where politics is thrown in just to hide his huge musical ignorance
This guy is literally worse than Ben Shapiro at this point xd. At least Ben Shapiro knows how to structrue his speech and he speaks quality nonsense.
@@tunahankaratay1523 I don't think someone who spells speech as “speach” is much of an authority on proper rhetoric.
Now do a video about why Beethoven was by far the best composer of his time.
hahaha, that wud be awesome!!! jealous u came up w/ this and i didnt!!! brilliant brilliant brilliant!!!
Judging by the video the uploader has no understanding of music and isnt fit to discuss that matter
@@rossconnolly3402
-Beethoven sucks, who has even listened to him? Its probably because hes old.
Do you like music? Well I bet you havent listened to him anyway, god forbid studied him. Etc etc etc
@@RobinJWheeler I'm a 20 year old classically trained pianist and I compose, the uploader is an idiot and not qualified to make videos about the master Beethoven.
@@rossconnolly3402 I like a lot of his other videos and he knows what hes talking about a lot more than me. Its just a bit weird for him to act like Beethoven wasn't as incredible as he was.
I'm so glad you mentioned Florence Price. I started listening to her work when my piano teacher assigned one of her pieces to me, and I was really taken aback by how incredible she was. Her symphonies are easily some of my favorite pieces of music, period.
This video has several of the kinds of moments that I find the most persuasive of all; where I put my agreement or disagreement to the side because what I'm hearing is so plainly-simple and good humored (I laughed at the parts about Pink Floyd) that it makes more sense than something complicated, snobbish or mean-spirited possibly could.
By 5:42, you've at least hinted at the main point. The late 1700s were a time of great worldwide class struggle, where an upper class had their elite music, and the "lower classes" still wanted to sing songs and have parties and dancing. It was two directly-conflicting ways of "owning" music (and other arts) that has for centuries been a defining aspect of the struggle for spiritual freedom.
Long live rock and roll, folk, hip-hop, and enjoying life.
Are you kidding? I love Beethoven and have listened to *a lot* of his works. All of his symphonies, most of his sonatas, a lot of his string works, all bagatelles. And Beethoven is my favorite composer. And there are so many things that make Beethoven great, with these just being a few:
- Quick, 1 chord modulations, often using a diminished seventh chord
- Unifying themes of extreme contrast via shared motifs(Like for example, a fast, tense, energetic, minor theme unified with a slow, peaceful, tranquil, major theme e.x Fifth Symphony First Movement)
- Parallel major-minor motions that feel like modulations in their own right(In fact, I often use the term Parallel Modulation to describe what happens in for example the second B section of Beethoven's Pathetique Sonata Rondo, where it sounds like it's going to end in a peaceful C major and then *Bam!* 1 chord and you are back in the tense C minor, because just saying Modal Interchange sounds so wrong when it isn't only a few chords of major in otherwise minor or vice versa, but Parallel Modulation sounds right, regardless of how many people say it isn't a thing)
- His use of Chromatic Mediants to both add and release tension(His Pastoral Symphony and the Tarantella from his 18th piano sonata both have these distant but still connected chord relations)
And I could go on and on, but you get the point. Point is, so what if musicology is screwed at it's core? So what if Beethoven broke the rules more often than Mozart and Haydn before him? He is still a great composer because his music is great. Beethoven didn't suck! People say he's a rough orchestrator. Not for his time he isn't! People say he wasn't good at Counterpoint. Uh, have a listen to Grosse Fuge and see if you still think he isn't good at Counterpoint. Counterpoint changes with time you know, from the strictly algebraic that is Bach's day to just 2 melodies that sound good combined(Modern times). You can't judge a book by it's cover. You need context. I have that context because I listen to Beethoven all the time. Most people do not have that context.
Good thing the video isn't actually claiming Beethoven sucks, then
@@Copperhell144 Yeah, it's not like it's title of video or anything.
@@samuelterry6354 Yeah, it's not like a video is anything else other than just a title or anything.
@@Copperhell144 You can't call a video Beethoven sucks and then say you never claimed Beethoven sucks.
as a literary nerd I have to say- this is all true of Shakespeare
Shakespeare is damn good, but he's so flawed, and we don't have any genuine manuscripts of his, afaik, they were all collected from each actors' parts.
Academic Literature needs some better authors than an English guy and some white Americans who were to liberal in their use of the n word
@@spartacuz9er9er69 damn straight. he's good, don't get me wrong, one of the best to ever do it. but he's not the be all end all. hes really not all that relevant in today's field of literature, and I think we should stop acting like he is tbh
@@dylandarcy1150 I would disagree with that, many of his works still are relevant, Julius Caesar and the Tempest off the top of my head, but some (Taming of the shrew, say) do need to be left out, or at least critically analysed. Personally, I love to read his works with a feminist or progressive eye, just to see how much was a product of his time, and what wasn't.
Take the work of Arthur Conan Doyle for instance, the original Irene Adler is a proto-feminist icon, she is objectively in the right in her story, and outsmarts Holmes. Is she a particularly powerful woman by modern standards? No, of course not, but the beginnings are there, they're just affected by the culture
@@spartacuz9er9er69 yo im aware you probably already know this but you probably should acknowledge that shakespeare didn't write sherlock holmes lol
I'm a fan of the Theater of the Absurd, so my love of Shakespeare is pretty invalid
This needs to be played/watched in every music class on day 2 of the scholastic semester. Winter, spring, summer and fall.
I am so happy this video exists. I have been talking about this for a long time. I am also very glad you included Amy Beach, she is a favorite of mine.
@12:12 Did you just draw Battletoads for "its a hard problem"?! Most accurate doodle yet
I had to pause and regain my composure after the "always has been" astronaut. LMAO
Say one thing for old Ludwig: while all the classical canon composers were rhythmically stunted as a result of not being exposed to African music (that's why I had expected this video to be about), Beethoven was shockingly funky in comparison to the others. Just listen to the rhythms in the first minute or two of Symphony 3: Mvt. I. You can find the most prevalent West African bell pattern in there and he's doing wild things with it. I'm guessing that if Beethoven had been given access to 2020 UA-cam, he would have gone wild with it. He was also considered a wildly anti-canon musical arsonist during his lifetime. In fairness, he also appears to have been one of the most appalling jackasses in history in terms of his personal life.
Any sources for what you claim? this sounds good and plausible, but from what I see its a hot take
@@gotex2796what do you see? You should listen
I dunno about the music theory world, but in my very first year of my undergrad in lit, all my profs tried to remind us at every turn that the literature canon is inherently political and reflects the priorities of the academics who defined in during the 1900s.
Given, I like to think I was in a lit program that tried really had to include nonwhite, female, lower-class voices in its program. My topics classes were all on things like the relationship between slavery and the literature by black authors over time, literature written by women who live in war-torn regions, the navigation of culture identities by writers who immigrated to our country, ect. Can't say if that's reflected in some of the more *ahem* "prestigious" programs in lit academia.
As much as I agree with you, I do think Beethoven still revolutionized music by using very clever ideas to push classical forms and tonality to their limits, thus allowing romanticism to blossom. A closer look at his music easily reveals the scope of his intelligence.
But admittedly, it could have been anyone else. He happened to have pretty much nothing more to do, had access to top-notch education, and the time was very right.
Vayhef - this argument cannot mean ‘anyone else’ it could mean something similar to what Malcolm Gladwell says about Bill Gates. He was born in the perfect year (1955) to an upper middle class family with access to a time sharing computer. But the many thousands of others with similar advantages didn’t create Microsoft. Beethoven has an incredible ear, endlessly inventive and exhaustive. He worked his buttons off and struggled with the rich assholes he depended upon. It wasn’t a difficult or close call about Beethoven, Mozart or Bach. Musicians knew this and the Canon is influenced by that the same way Dizzy can vouch for Parker or Keith Richards for the Blues masters who never profited from their work.
I think the title was mostly clickbait, but imo in this case it's not done in bad taste or as false advertising.
@@reganjo1955 good point, I should have been more nuanced on that.
After all, many 19th century composers were so impressed by Beethoven's work that it detered them from walking in his steps, stating there was no point in doing so since he had already reached the top of the mountain. They refused to write pieces that would sound like "Beethoven but worse".
If anything, that has to be the proof that in addition to having created the right art at the right time, he did actually perfect it, so much so that no one would dare walk in his shoes for decades.
So yeah, he had it all : circumstances and genius.
@@jankbunky4279 it's still a bit confusing imo since I don't remember him really stating how witful and impactful Beethoven's writing was, which would make one think his fame is undeserved.
But yeah it's no big deal, the video is still very insightful.
I don't believe it could have been anyone else. There are maybe a handful of other composers throughout history you could put in Beethoven's place and yielded results of the same magnitude.
I feel like Shakespeare also gets this treatment with regard to writing... to a much more extreme, almost religious level.
In both cases, it's not fair to modern writers/musicians/writesicians, but, just to play devil's advocate, I'd argue it's also freeing. If there's no point in aspiring to be "the best there ever was", I think you get many more people trying to do things that haven't been done before and building things that have meaning to them, rather than needing to build off some other acclaimed artist's masterpiece in order to be considered "good".
There are still people out there who do that, of course, 'cause nothing's absolute... but I think without the idea that some moldy old skeleton in a crypt you'll probably never see was always going to be better than you, we'd get a lot more of them.
@@thomaswinwood very interesting. I imagine there would be intense pushback from all those academics who think it's "perfect".
Myself I'd certainly like to read translated versions, even just out of curiosity.
I don’t know anything about Shakespeare, but from what I’ve heard his stuff is written with a rhythm sort of like music. And translating would ruin that.
@@dfdfdgggjhjjh5081 Counterpoint 1: not necessarily. As a songwriter myself I can tell you there's a lot you can do to twist around this language and sometimes even keep it sounding fairly natural at the same time.
Translations of, say, TV shows or movies from other languages do this all the time in order so that the dialogue won't keep going when the actors' lips stop moving.
Could you take that whole idea this far for a whole play? Maybe not, but you could certainly preserve some of it.
Counterpoint 2: Musical rhythm or not, it would still be helpful to be able to actually tell what's going on in the play -- especially when you're just reading it and it's not being performed in front of you.
When it comes to people who just want to read the things and see what all the fuss is about, I can guarantee you you'd see more appreciation for every aspect of the writing if they had two versions they could flip back and forth between when they found something difficult to decipher.
@@SplotchTheCatThing they’ve been rewriting Shakespeare in modern English forever.
Personally, I always hated Shakespeare. It mostly is "love wins in the end" in one way or another, while actual human motivators like revenge are getting tossed aside as lowly and degenerate. It's as if Shakespeare was a time traveling Disney-employee writing edgy fanfiction. It's so romantic, that it almost seems grimdark.
i almost wrote a bit of a long paragraph full of what i'm about to say plus about 3 points that i would've considered to be fairly additive but gave up because i suck at writing and my wording became weird and i had a bit of scope creep happen, but i figure these two things i can still say:
your point is valid
and as someone who listens to a lot of fairly varied music and plays a lot of (less varied but still somewhat varied) music, i still hate the title even though you acknowledge that [insert famous composer here] probably doesn't actually suck at music in the video :D
It was pretty fortunate for composers in 'ye olde days that different patrons chose to suit their vanity by commissioning new composers. While I was having too much fun didling out MIDI arrangements for a virtual infinity of instruments, I always marveled that high art composers achieved the status that they did. Writing out each piece by hand. Having to trust the process that the combination of parts would sound good while individual parts might seem off in some way.
As someone that is in the "I can hum and enjoy a few parts of 5th and 9th" group
I really enjoy in this way of thinking of not discounting the present just because I enjoy the past.
Thank you for this other point of view!
That moment when you realize the entire video was a prolonged ad for Skill Share
I've conducted the canon of Beethoven symphonies. I also have played Beethoven at the piano, as have many other classical musicians. The man is great. This whole GOAT thing reminds me of doing the same thing with Basketball. A GOAT can't really be determined. That being said Beethoven deserves his reputation. I invite @12Tone to try to compose deaf. Even Bach had to stop when he went deaf at the end of his life. Faure couldn't continue. Smetana coundn't continue. We composers need our ears.
I know that I couldn't keep composing without mine.
That man wrote his GREATEST works, the 9th symphony, the Missa Solemnis, and the late string quartets after finally losing what was left of his hearing. That's a miracle. To me that is the best argument for GOAT status if one wants to make that argument.
Totally true. Plus, this video is complete bs. The title is ''why beethoven sucks at music'' when he said only two things, both wrong and both unrelated to Beethoven's ability to compose music:
1º: Beethoven is overrated, which if we compare for example with the beatles, you can see that despite being much more simple (dare I say worse) the beatles are much more popular.
2º the high classes define which music is good, which is also false. Bach is the absolute father of music. Nobody can't say otherwise, I dare. And yet, most people don't go to listen Bach, let alone ''the powerful people''. Barack Obama never brought an orchesta to play Bach at the white house, but Paul Mc Cartney and Stevie Wonder. There maybe was a time were the high classes listened to classical music, but that time has fade out.
After this things, he doesn't say why Beethoven and Mozart are bad. Needless to say, he didn't because he can't. You can overanalyze Nivana's Nevermind or call Welcome to the machine a masterpiece, but there's no way anyone can argue that Beethoven is even slightly mediocre.
I would be really interested to hear more about the differences between how American and European/British music education breaks down the study of music - you briefly mention 'musicology and music theory' and that they European approach works slightly differently. I grew up with the British curriculum and academic approaches to the study of music and, having watched a couple of videos today, the American concept of 'music theory' feels very alien but I can't actually find much discussing the differences. Could easily be I don't know what phrases to google (I'm mostly getting hits about the differences in nomenclature instead).
This is the contemporary version of
"Hendrix wasn't even that good"
Yes... true
I find it very interesting that in the past grave classical music was so mainstream, while today it isn't. I would make a case for a possible personality change in culture: Today there isn't much left of the "epic" gravity of the past, instead lighter and more "fun" music is appreciated much more. But in domains like video games epic music has survived: Because the narrative itself - for example a boss battle - demands "epicness" and gravity. It is ironic that video games (like Dark Souls) continue the tradition of this sort of music seemingly much more than temporary classical music. When I listen to choir music, it is most often in video games nowadays! :D
As a definite classical music fanboy (not that I scoff at other genres, I listen to all of them and enjoy them, just that _some_ classical music has found its way very deep into my heart), it seems to me that because of this stupid and untrue high art / low art distinction there was a separation of motives, with one group pursuing deep essential profundity at the cost of all surface aesthetics (the "epic gravity" thing), and another dismissing that as a fool's errand and going for just the best looks. In essence, it's like nowadays music can be either "pretty" or "deep" but not both anymore. This is truly heartbreaking for me, because these traits are not opposites, but rather, two sides of same coin. Music is the greatest form of art, not because it's the highest, but because it's simultaneously the highest _and_ the lowest, and as such, captures the full spectrum of humanity; All of my favourite composers, classical or not, understood this truth, that beauty of sound and and depth of meaning are one and the same, and purposely amputating one from the other is ultimately a disservice to both. I will leave you with a (translated) quote from my very tippity-top favourite composer, the quite apparently very misunderstood Beethoven (yes, actually):
"Music is the mediator between the sensual and the spiritual"
Classical music wasn't "mainstream" in the past, it was the music of the elites.
Normal people had always have folk music.
Also, there's some pretty uninspired "Epic" music often used in big block busters and some really deep popular music.
1.) The canon was created when concert culture started to become a thing in Europe. They needed a list of masters that would sell tickets. Mid 1800s I believe not mid 1900s.
2.) The whole reason the canon focuses on Germany is because Austria, specifically Vienna, was the musical capital of the world for the longest time during the classical and romantic period. They shaped the face of western music and understanding of harmony as we know it.
3.) Beethoven is considered the best composer because of how he mastered the principals of counterpoint and achieved flawless harmonic and melodic balance. His masterpieces specifically his 9th symphony has been played during celebrations everywhere from Germany to Japan. It is one of the most universally loved pieces of music in recorded history. It's not only played these days, but it never stopped being played since 200 years ago when it was first performed.
Edit: I've since learned new information. Beethoven is praised not only because of his music, but his impact. Critiquing him is like critiquing something like Gravity. His career was such a lynchpin in freedom of expression in music that we would not have anything like we do in the western music circle without him. That's why he's the greatest composer of all time. Not just because of his music, but because of his legacy and impact. He shook the music world to it's core in many ways as early as his 3rd symphony. He was the first truly free artist. He was free to explore whatever he wished within his time. And the 9th? That was absolutely revolutionary. He did what he wanted, and we do what we want now because of that. We should thank him for that.
So youre saying "liking Beethoven," isnt a personality trait. XP
no shit
You basically don't speak about his music but about the canon at a meta level, attacking the subject by one angle. There is one big contradiction, you underline the importance of actual musical quality and suggest a reexamination of the canon under new criteria. However you also say that the quality of Beethoven's music doesn't matter in an "abstract sense" note the use of vocabulary here to diminish importance. I'm quite dissapointed of this video. I really deeply enjoy the music of Beethoven since I'm very young (my best friend played a lot of it, he's now working on his own music theory). From an analytical point of view at least you had the honesty to concede Beethoven's music is great. Yes history did "reward him" but not in the sense you frame it. He didn't happen to be in the transition between the classical and romantic era, he was the transition, his music was.
I have sympathy for the emotions that drove this video, but it is very poorly researched compared to the rest of your content. Why? Because it defends an a priori political view that you strive to defend.
"Invisible hand of the canon" made me laugh. She picked the perfect descriptor for that alleged process.
At 12:13 when you say hard, is that a Battletoad you're drawing? Because that game is pretty hard.
I'm a big fan of metal, and when I took a gen ed classical music course in college, Beethoven was my favorite composer by far. I really just liked how energetic and aggressive his music was compared to others like Mozart and Bach. You can definitely hear Beethoven's influence on modern metal, so I think he has something going for him other than just being in the canon "because reasons".
Look at Tocada en Fugue d minor and tell me it lacks energy.
@@TheRagingPlatypus It's an intense piece, but it doesn't have the same kind of dramatic development and range of emotions as Beethoven. Then again, I think most metal may be closer to Bach in that respect.
recognizing other new geniuses does NOT require to destroy and replace old school composers! Why should we replace them, when we can just add more to the canon?
To add to that: who can say that our changes to a canon are not just as politically motivated? Sure a canon will represent the zeitgeist but I find it worrying when people say we can update or change a canon to be "correct". It will always be an imperfect tool, which luckily plenty of people already know. Contrary to what this video seems to suggest.
Nobody is getting replaced you bozo, did you even watch the video?
@@kj_H65f I did watch a video, did you? The video literally suggests that Beethoven literally got on the cannon out of sheer f****** luck. It named some women composers and composers of color, but I wonder what those composers had said about Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart? All right, they all hail damage the greatest composers and would have never have dared to even try to compare themselves, as most composers during the nineteenth century Europe also would never have dared.
@@babygottbach2679 Once again, nobody is getting replaced. I don't know what you're getting all worked up about.
@@kj_H65f If Beethoven actually sucks at music and is only on the canon as a matter of some cosmic fluke, he OUGHT to be removed. Follow the reasoning of the argument ACTUALLY being made in this video.
I think one topic you didn't really talk about is how music changed from composers performing their work to performers performing other composers' work. There was also a glaring omission when you talked about Bach writing for a patron and his tastes when a large portion if not at least half of his works were for the church.
I agree with your point that we hold on to the idea that "older is better," but rather than "move on" which is the theme I got from your video, I'd argue we should just add composers to the canon.
You also approached the topic of the music from a popular/elitist point of view, and while that does play a significant role, you'd be remiss not to take into account what the big names did to actually contribute or revolutionize music in their time. There is a reason why Mozart and Beethoven both looked upon Bach's work with admiration. What was that reason? Don't you think it would be important to include this video? Were there others, should there be others? Yes. But, your video dismisses their genius and simply attributes their longevity to canon.
Another factor you completely glanced over is instruments. I'm not going to hear an oboe concerto at the top of the current music charts. If symphonies did not serve as a home to these classical instruments, we would be robbing future generations of learning these instruments and probably condemning some of the more obscure instruments to die.
And the elitism goes both ways. People who only listen to popular contemporary music dismiss anything that is more complex than a song in simple 4/4 with a common chord progression.
_"you'd be remiss not to take into account what the big names did to actually contribute or revolutionize music in their time. There is a reason why Mozart and Beethoven both looked upon Bach's work with admiration. What was that reason? Don't you think it would be important to include this video? Were there others, should there be others? Yes. But, your video dismisses their genius and simply attributes their longevity to canon."_
Yes, good point. The canon isn't totally arbitrary. I feel like usually (at least these days) the classical canon is about the most "important" composers. It doesn't mean that their music is necessarily better, but it means that they had a big influence on music. Beethoven is considered to be one of the greatest composers for the same reason as why Jimi Hendrix is considered to be one of the greatest electric guitar players and why The Beatles are considered to be one of the greatest pop/rock bands.
Obviously we should also give recognition to artists outside of the canon. But I think it's also important to make a distinction between what artists we subjectively like, and what artists we should appreciate, even if they didn't make my personal favorite music.
What's the point of a canon?
@@MaggaraMarine "I think it's also important to make a distinction between what artists we subjectively like, and what artists we should appreciate, even if they didn't make my personal favorite music"
But this distinction is arbitrary and entirely focused on an extremely eurocentric view of music. There's plenty in middle-eastern and other oriental musical traditions, for example, that have been large influences in our modern musical landscape, but that you'll never even hear mentioned because said influences aren't a part of western canon. This doesn't mean we shouldn't appreciate the composers within this canon, but the value we apply to them excludes other equally useful influences from that level of appreciation - and, in part, due to inflexibility.
@@henriquepacheco7473 _"But this distinction is arbitrary and entirely focused on an extremely eurocentric view of music."_
Well, I thought we were talking about the Western classical canon here... That's what the video was also talking about, so I don't see why "Eurocentiricity" would be an issue in this context. The "classical canon" is by definition about Western classical music.
I'm not saying there aren't artists that would deserve more recognition. All I'm saying is that there's a difference between your own taste ("I like this random hipster band, and in my opinion, they would deserve a lot more recognition"), and the more "objective" influence/importance of certain artists ("Personally, Beethoven isn't my favorite composer, but I recognize his importance in a historical sense").
Then again, it is true that people put these big classical composers on a pedestal. Some people worship their genius and treat them as some kind of "musical gods". And I doubt these people would recognize similar talent from the music of other genres or cultures.
So, if we are talking about the "top composers/songwriters/musicians of all time", then treating Beethoven as the greatest of all time would be more questionable, because a lot of things have happened in music since him. But then again, I think a list like that would be too vague any way, and it would be comparing apples to oranges. For example why would Beethoven deserve more recognition than Jimi Hendrix? Both were hugely important figures in music, and comparing the two just wouldn't make much sense. It's easier to compare different musicians in the same style than to compare two musicians from totally different styles and eras.
But if we are only talking about the classical canon (and don't focus on the way some people treat these composers as some kind of super-humans/demigods), then Beethoven's position on the list is deserved because of his influence. It isn't just about people's opinions - it's also about his importance in general. He pretty much started the romantic period, and a lot of romantic composers were hugely influenced by his music. He was pretty much treated as the "pinnacle of music" by a lot of composers back then.
Then again, there's a discussion to be had on why it's exactly Beethoven that's seen as the most important composer in classical music. Why not someone like Monteverdi who basically started the baroque period, and was one of the innovators of opera? Why not someone like Perotin who was one of the first composers that started writing 3- and 4-part harmony? It seems like we value the opinions of 19th century classical musicians over the classical musicians from the previous centuries...
But yeah, basically I'm saying that Beethoven's position as one of the greatest classical composers is deserved, just like Jimi Hendrix's position as one of the greatest rock guitarists is deserved. I mean, Michael Angelo Batio could easily play any Hendrix song, and a lot more complex stuff than that, but that doesn't make him "greater" than Jimi Hendrix. And this is because of influence. Hendrix totally changed guitar playing. MAB on the other hand is just a technically proficient shredder, but didn't really do much to change the "meaning" of guitar music. In other words, I think there are certain names that deserve to be on these lists simply because of their importance - not because people simply like their music. Hendrix's influence is more than just someone thinking Purple Haze is a banger. And similarly, Beethoven's influence is more than just someone thinking Ode to Joy is a catchy melody. Those are just arbitrary opinions. What makes them great is not some random opinions. It is about their influence. They kind of "redefined" their own styles.
@@MaggaraMarine I think you, then, understand the point this video is making. It isn't denying Beethoven's worth, but rather pointing out that usually the western classical canon is propped up as the absolute primacy of music, to the detriment of all other music that preceded, coexisted with and that followed it - and that it does so in significant part because of the biases of the people that historically structured the academic construct of the canon.
the intro metronome bugs me because i always expect it to jump into paranoid android but it never does.
Bach was one of the few who completely shifted the way music is viewed, and Mozart, then Bethoven enforced that. Really studying someone’s music wasn’t something that people would do, or think about. And the fact that everyone knows those three is all you need to know that they’re are indeed “good at music”. Because deciding who’s good at music is something people do, and if every person thinks or knows that those three are in that category, then they are. This happens with everything. The Godfather is just known to be one of the greatest movies of all time, even though maybe not everyone has seen it. Babe Ruth, Bill Russell, and other early sports stars are just known as incredible athletes in their specific sport. And Bach, Mozart, Bethoven, Satchmo, Sinatra, Robert Johnson, B.B King, Elvis, Ray, The Beatles, Dylan, Hendrix, Stevie Wonder, MJ, they are all incredible musical minds. There’s a real reason people just know these things.
I always love these videos that are critical of how we think about and evaluate music. It’s all ultimately subjective, but the powers that be are always trying to create hierarchies that justify their own preferences and positions. Music is not a competition.
My God, the segue into the ad read ... masterful. Worthy of Beethoven himself.
Truly the Beethoven of UA-cam sponsorship.
(Okay, so now I wonder how the Xenakis of UA-cam sponsorship would look like...)
Seems like an insult with the context of the video.
@@FraudMonet You got me. I watched to the end of the video because I disliked it so much. I would have gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for you meddling kids.
Seriously! I'm calling that "buttery smooth".
Saw it coming right up fifth avenue. Called it around the time he said, "After all, Beethoven..."
As a classical musician I can say with certainty that Beethoven is just that good. He isn't great by accident he is great by his amazing and beautiful works, he'll even just playing his pieces is fun. Moonlight sonata 3rd was hard to learn but oh so fun to play. He is a musical genius and is not even slightly overrated. He might not be my personal favourite (that spot belongs to Chopin), but I do consider him the best.
I agree with this more than I do most of the other comments here! You're exactly right: nobody is famous by accident. They can be famous for what might seem to some people to be a trivial reason, but ultimately they still have or do something that a significant number of people value. A major reason there are so many German/Austrian (and also Italian) composers from the time is largely because the culture of the time in those places emphasized music. Around the same time, Britain was famous for literature for similar reasons.
My degree is in Art History and this topic almost exactly parallels discussions in the art world about who owns the Western fine arts canon, who is in the canon (predominately white European/American men) and unraveling how it came to be in the first place (originally decided by European men). Don't get me wrong, some of my favorite artists are the men in that canon, but I think it's healthy to be mindful of how they got that platform. I like how this applies to music as well.
You know, Linus Tech Tips always gets mentioned about his segways to sponsor's messages, but man, do you modulate to those well!!
It’s weird that Kendrick Lamar winning a Pulitzer is what triggered such a negative reaction considering in the hip hop world Kendrick kinda is high art (though he does still crossover with the mainstream far more then, say, The Roots). But it’s not like they have a Pulitzer to Blueface or whatever.
(don’t get me wrong we also stan Blueface)
if i understand u correctly, wat ur saying is, the blueman group. my preliminary assessment is that, i got it-though further study is warranted. sorry, i’m slow.
It’s because Damn isn’t a good album.
One of the main negative reactions is that the Pulitzer had never been awarded to non-jazz/classical music.
@@mackereltacos2850 I'd lay money that the first jazz composer to win a Pulitzer stirred fights if he was Black. May have even upset people anyway, since jazz was not considered music by the ultra-snobby racist set.
@@IAmisMaster it's an OK album. The award really should have been for To Pimp A Butterfly
i love to think about the drawings you do during these because sometimes they just confuse me entirely or make me die from laughter.
>white men
>*draws fry from futurama*
"its about what it means to you and its okay if it means nothing"
> *draws elephant happy*
okay makes sense
> *draws duck*
w h a t
@@athy8763 Do not question the duck