Why Ben Shapiro Is Wrong About Rap
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- Опубліковано 10 жов 2019
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Well, looks like it's that time of year again. When Ben Shapiro (or anyone else) argues that rap and hip hop aren't technically considered music, they're flying in the face of basically all established scholarship on the topic. And it's not like we're just making this stuff up, either: We have good reasons for interpreting music (and specifically hip hop) the way we do. They're not even complicated reasons, which makes it mystifying to me that Shapiro's been repeating this same argument for at least a decade, but still, someone's gotta explain why he's wrong and I guess that someone is me.
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Last: • Understanding Thriller
My first rap video: • Is Rap Music?
7 Levels of Jazz Harmony: • The 7 Levels of Jazz H...
Defining Music video: • What Even Is Music?
Script (With sources): docs.google.com/document/d/1b...
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Also, thanks to Jareth Arnold for proofreading the script to make sure this all makes sense hopefully!
Some additional thoughts/corrections:
1) I edited the Shapiro quote down for time, but I don't believe I altered the meaning in any way. However, for the sake of transparency, here's a full transcription of the entire quote: "The musical case against rap is that, in my view, and the view of my music theorist father who went to music school, there are three elements to music. There is harmony, there is melody, and there is rhythm, and rap only fulfills one of these: the rhythm section. There's not a lot of melody, and there's not a lot of harmony, and thus it is basically, effectively, spoken rhythm, and so it's not actually a form of music, it's a form of rhythmic speaking. So beyond the subjectivity of me just not enjoying rap all that much, what I've said before is it's not music, so tell me why I'm wrong."
The quote at the end is from later in the same interview and was not altered in any way except for removing an unnecessary vocal stumble.
2) Another point to be made about Shapiro's description is that "not a lot of harmony/melody" is not the same as "no harmony/melody", so even by his own admission, hip-hop contains all three of the elements required to be music. I chose to ignore this point because it's largely pedantic: It's clear from context that he means it doesn't meet the acceptable threshold for those qualities. The idea that such a threshold exists is worth challenging, but attacking his poor phrasing didn't seem worthwhile.
3) A brief note on rap vs. hip hop: The two terms are often used interchangeably, but within hip hop culture they refer to slightly different things. Rap is the vocal delivery, and can be found in non-hip hop works like Killing In The Name Of, whereas hip hop is the genre, and can include non-rapped music like Killing Me Softly. Conflating the two is potentially dangerous, but I think given that Shapiro is talking about the work as a whole (Otherwise, if he's only referring to the performative technique of a solo vocalist, the harmony requirement makes even _less_ sense.) it seems more likely that he's describing the genre, and thus I believe hip hop is probably the more accurate label for the object he's referencing. I mean, realistically, what he's probably attempting to reference is the overlap in the Venn diagram between hip hop and rap: That is, he's describing hip hop songs that contained rapped vocals, but he doesn't have the linguistic nuance to specify that. I doubt he's aware that non-rapped hip hop music exists.
4) Quick note on rubato: In classical usage, it's not the same thing as free time. "Rubato" describes a specific manipulation of tempo where the player speeds up and then slows down, effectively "borrowing" some time from the earlier part of the phrase and adding it to the later part. However, in modern usage, especially in the context of pop and jazz, it's often used to describe passages that are effectively free time. Language evolves.
5) For those curious, here's an example of traditional Korean monophonic music: ua-cam.com/video/qWMDJU7atI0/v-deo.html
6) Apologies for the drum lick. I didn't want to know it was possible either, but now that I do I feel like I shouldn't have to bear this burden alone.
7) One thing that I tried to imply through tone in the script but should probably also state explicitly here is that I'm treating Shapiro's argument with a seriousness it doesn't deserve. It's a trivially refutable definition, one that basically any actual music expert would reject out of hand, and the fact that he's been repeating it in public spaces for at least a decade implies that he's more interested in justifying his pre-existing belief that hip hop isn't music than he is in actually learning about the issue. I know he said "tell me why I'm wrong" but I don't believe he meant it. That said, his arguments do get heard by a lot of people, and I believe many of them _are_ willing to engage in good faith, they're just not being given any exposure to actual expertise on the topic. That's who this video is for, and I hope it reaches some of them.
For context, is this his Sunday Special with Zuby? It sounds like Zuby’s voice but I haven’t listened to it.
12tone I could find you a clip of John McLaughlin also saying that rap isn’t real music. But to you anything and everything is music and it’s all jut as good as any other music because it’s neither good nor bad, it’s all just subjective. Is karaoke music? What are the differences between karaoke and rap?
@@MrUnoun Did you even watch the video?
And why would karaoke not be music? That's such a bizarre gotcha
He knows about this, he's a good violin player ua-cam.com/video/sg1kSqtAxPM/v-deo.html
He makes this comments only because he's a little racist piece shit.
I feel like there are severe omissions on behalf of Shapiro's opinion re: elements of music. Failing to mention form or dynamics for example. While not required to be "music", hip hop and rap absolutely contains unique forms within. While the absence of form can still be argued as improvisation (or freestyling). Rap absolutely relies heavily on the element of dynamics for reasons you laid out in the video. You mentioned how inflection or pitch can change the implication of a melody or speaking part. I would argue that dynamics are absolutely critical in rap/hip hop. Strong and weak emphasis on syllables can be related to accented notes in a single melody line while also reiterating the rhythm of a tune. Repetition of these concepts creates continuity as well as rhythmic motifs. My music theorist father from music school told me so.
Turns out music facts don't care about your feelings.
12Tone DESTROYS Ben Sharpiro with FACTS AND REASON!!!1!
Paul Busch, *what a twist*
@@jem7bsb yes, and also you can actually have facts about feelings
Brilliant!
Boo👎
"My father's a music theorist" is the new "My wife's a doctor"
"jazz is a skill degradation from classical"
whaaaat?
that doesn't have racial implications behind it at _allllllll._
When his voice came in, I literally couldn't tell if it was someone making fun of his voice or actually him speaking
Literally my thoughts as well, I'm like wow this is actually a funny jab at ben, turns out it's just his disgusting voice
I read this comment before, and when it came on I STILL thought it was someone making fun of his voice until I remembered hahaha
According Ben Shapiros argument a drum solo isn't music.
And percussion music in General, e.g. Xenakis "Rebonds B"...
He shit on the entirety of the rhythm section lol
Burn lol
I was about to say this
a violin solo isn't music
"Why Ben Shapiro Is Wrong" is an entire genre
I prefer the "Why its wrong to argue with idiots, when ignoring them is an option."
@@recklessroges Sadly, ignoring them doesn't help. It just means their bad ideas go unchallenged in the court of public opinion and smooth-brained simpletons absorb them.
You won't change Ben's mind by debating him/pointing out his errors, but you will prevent the spread of his fallacious viewpoints to neutral third parties. Counterprogramming is important.
+Reckless Roges Well the problem is when those idiots sadly have a big influence on people and people actually listen to what they have to say and what they saying impacting peoples opinions
Chris Check I was going to say that. Just, a lot less eloquently.
"Professional opinion haver". That's the best description of Benny Sharp I've ever heard.
“But here’s the thing: I’m an expert in the field.” Man just ended Shapiro.
You forgot one important argument on Shapiro’s side...
His wife’s a doctor
Interesting but did you know his wife is a doctor?
hahahaha :)
@@criticalhippo4294 yes. And i heard that his wife's a doctor
@@Ploon72 nope, since his wife is a doctor.
"Rock is a degradation of jazz and jazz is a degradation of classical."
Careful, Ben. Your bias is showing. They were evolutions, not degradations.
"It's not a form of music, it's a form of... 'rhythmic speaking.'"
Poetry, Ben. The word you were looking for was poetry.
that would be acknowledging that an artform created by black people was art of some kind and that'd be a no go for mister bean shuproo
That would actually help his argument, since nobody refers to poetry as music.
Poetry doesn't have to be spoken out loud
@@dhu2056 True, and not all poetry has an identifiable rhythm, but it's one of those "all A's are B's, but not all B's are A's" kind of situations.
That being said, I think we can all agree the guy wouldn't know what he's talking about if it came up and bit him in the face.
PasIvre HEY BUT MY DAD SAID IT ISNT ART so ha I win the debate. Facts don’t care about your feelings especially mine - Ben Shapiro
I love how you take the best possible version of Ben Sharpiro's argument and even improve upon it while arguing against it. This is called a "steel man" argument because it's the opposite of a straw man argument.
> 'A Steel man' is the use of an improved version of an opponents' argument that is harder to defeat than their original argument. This can (and should) be used in a debate to convince yourself that your own argument is indeed correct, and to give fair representation to your opponent.
TIL, thank you
@Orb Plant I think it's called Principle of Charity in debate as well. I don't know if it's proper usage, but I usually use "Steelmanning" to refer to the tactic itself, and "Principle of Charity" to refer to the principle in debate which indicates that that is what one should do. Also, in more formal contexts, I tend to rephrase the sentence to use "Principle of Charity" instead of "Steelmanning".
“Jazz is a degradation of classical” lolwut
Shen Bapiro is just completely uninformed, as per usual.
It's racism my dude
Shapiro doesn't believe black people can create anything original
Remembering that one classic™ Ben Shapiro tweet where he says "that some people listen to rap instead of Mozart is objective proof that some people are stupid." I'm not like, a classical music snob or anything, but I get the impression that Ben Shapiro does not actually listen to classical music if his pull for "classical composer that smart people listen to" is *Mozart*, out of all possible options
I would love to hear him try and explain this opinion. And then systematically see his opinion broken down, and thrown into the garbage. Where it belongs.
Remember when Ben Shippero said John Lennon's Music is bad because John Lennon didn't know music theory...
No I don’t, because every time he talks my mind wonders somewhere else. And for good reason.
Wait until he argues that Beethoven was bad due to him being deaf and had an extraordinary ability to understand music without prior knowledge of music theory back when he had hearing?
Ben Shapiro: "Leftists are elitists"
Also Ben: *Brags about how is father is a music theorist.*
Ben Shapiro: "Jazz. Degradation of skill from Classical. "
*Giant Steps wants to know your location*
"My dad says rap isn't music, and if you disagree, you're wrong." --BS
"There's not a lot of melody and there's not a lot of harmony" - "not a lot" is semantically equivalent to "there is some" therefore it is music. Regardless of that statement also being wrong, minimalism does not make a thing not be itself.
Arguing on the semantics of verbal discussion can quickly lead down a rabbit hole that wastes time. You need to look at the merit and intent of the argument, not the semantic.
Ben "I use my own definitions" Shapiro can't appreciate music because it requires an independent mind and soul.
Also, he's a fucking piece of shit.
"my wife is a doctor and my father went to musicke school, therefore I am right and you are wrong" -- Shen "logic man" Bapiro.
My *FAFurr*
Shapiro is also a musician.
@@ramonbs6075 apparently not a knowledgeable one
@@ramonbs6075 Ben knows how to play violin really well. But apparently that doesn't make him a good student of music. I can picture Ben being like "I know all about cars because I own a Ferrari!" but doesn't know how to pump his own gas.
Ben “tHE sOCIALISTS wANNA mAKE mY wIFE a sLAVE” Shapiro everybody
According to shapiro's logic if my dad is a surgeon i can perform open heart surgery
“Professional Opinion-Haver”. I think that may be the most flattering description of Shapiro ever. You are truly a Gentleman and a Scholar
What did you think "politcal analyst" means?
@@lillones It obviously means he defines music.
@@lillones propagandist?
Intellectual for anti-intellectuals is a nice one also
"Armchair critic" comes to mind.
"Give me your shittiest take"
Ben: "Rock was an actual degradation for skill for music from jazz, which was actually a degradation of skill from classical"
"No, that's too shitty"
This is just what Shapiro does. He states a bunch of general opinions like they are fact, and even though you know he is wrong, it would take too much time within the segment to properly correct him. He does this on just about every topic, most of which he is largely ignorant of, but other people who are largely ignorant on those topics will think he is right because he says this stupid stuff quickly and confidently
"Otherwise we're forced to conclude that he just doesn't know nearly enough about rap to be speaking so authoritatively about it, and what are the odds of that?"
Oh, you!
All of the odds.
The whole odd.
1
That's almost everything he talks about, only he speaks at such a blubbering rate no one can catch him on his shit: Gish gallop
@@criticalhippo4294 yeah and the worst thing is only far right assholes buy it. Everyone else knows thats why he talks fast, he'll throw out 20 false talking points and then when its the opposition's time to speak its not like they can address all 20 lies back to back. Thats why he does it. And then HE accused everyone ELSE of gish galloping! Or they (he and crowder) accuse people of "ad hominem attacks" if they get called something like a "shill" or a "dumbass", they bring the entire argument to a halt and freak out about it, even though an insult is NOT an ad hominem fallacy!! An ad hominem is a form of argument, its an entire argument based around painting them in a false light and calling that persons character into question instead of addressing the argument; randomly throwing an insult into an argument isnt a logical fallacy its just being a dick. And so when they accuse everyone of using an ad hominem THEY are actually using an ad hominem fallacy because they are trying to paint their opposition as bad instead of responding to the argument!!
Bold of you to assume Ben Shapiro would be interested in learning anything outside his current worldview.
I used to be one of those classical elitist music people so here's a thought that made me see the light.
A very simple debunking of the whole "skill" idea:
If classical music takes so much skill (which it absolutely can) and all other forms of music are less skillful than it, then why can't classical musicians write and perform those other genres with mastery without much training?
It's like saying being an olympic sprinter is easier than working the grill at McDonalds because running is only one task.
"12tone DESTROYS Ben Shapiro beliefs of music with logic and facts"
disappointed this wasn't the title^ :P
That would be amazing
Lol yeah, petition to change the title!
"I'll just assume ignorance on Shapiro's part," safe assumption in general.
Can we all at least agree that it's tricky to rock a rhyme, to rock a rhyme that's right on time?
Yup. It's tricky.
@@SethKotta tricky tricky tricky
Dr. Jerusalem tricky tricky tricky tricky
The rhyme there was intentional right?
It is indeed tricky.
Music is a language.
Telling someone their language has no right to exist is how wars start.
Yeah, it's about time someone told all these jazz drummers that their classical counterparts are clearly the superior percussionists.
"Music needs melody, harmony and rhythm"
John Cage: *laughs in silence*
I don't think john cage is music. Its modern art that's only relevant because its absurd.
"This is probably the hardest to define" *draws a battle toad"
wtf
things that are hard:
defining this
battletoads
He quite regularly draws Battletoads whenever he's talking about something difficult.
I had never heard his "degradation of skill" argument before. Major yikes for me.
"My music theorist father who went to music school" what a title
He disproves his own point *immediately* with the way he qualifies things... he says music requires those 3 elements and then says that "there's not a lot of" the other 2. Well, "not a lot of" =/= "none," so he is literally arguing for something he both knows and literally says to be demonstrably untrue.
Shoots himself in the foot with the very premise, never mind his justifications.
By Shapiro's definition wouldn't his own violin solos disqualify as music? If there's only one note at a time there is no harmony…
“Because otherwise we’re just going to have to assume that he doesn’t know enough about rap to be speaking so authoritatively on it.”
Very true.
Addendum:
Ben Shapiro: “Rock was an actual degradation of skill from Jazz, which was a degradation of skill from classical music.”
12Tone(from the studio door): I’m out! I’m done!
Even he admits the same.
Please Ben Shapiro, explain to me what about John Coltrane and Miles Davis is a degradation from classical. Anyone who listens to good jazz doesn’t disrespect jazz. Rock too.
11:36 That's a clever inclusion of the lick my friend
omg thanks for commenting this
...holy shit can't unhear it
Dammit. I'm so mad at myself for not noticing that.
Good ear.
Wow good catch
When someone says: "prove that I'm wrong." That's the perfect time to understand that it's worthless trying to do so.
First, because this person may not be showing genuine interest in reevaluate his previous beliefs and modify them if that's necessary.
Second, this person might be more interested in debating for its own sake than build real knowledge from the conversation.
So, ask them this simple question: "what would make you assume that I'm able to prove you're wrong?"
Implying that "prove me wrong" is never said by people who will actually change their minds when confronted with proof.
So now we have the sequel to "My wife's a doctor" - "My father went to music school."
"FACELESS MUSIC THEORIST DESTROYS FOLDLESS CRAINIUM CONTENT HAVER BEN SHAPIRO"
Nah, we've seen his face, he did a collab with LegalEagle. He looks metal.
if it was up to the Shapiros of the world, we would still be listening to medieval monk chanting exclusively
What drives me insane about the “this isn’t music” criticism - of any genre - is its total lack of acknowledgment of music’s extremely subjective nature. I understand why you didn’t approach the video from this argument but who is to say that music that can be written down is the only music? The definition of music as a combination of rhythm, melody, harmony is an exceedingly poor definition of what musical experience is; what it means to enjoy sound for sounds’ enjoyment’s sake. I enjoy modular synthesis and generative sounds. It may just be bleeps, boops and wooshes but that is music to my ears. And I believe absolutely any sound that exists in context and persists for longer than 5 seconds can be considered music.
Who else is watching this from Ben Shapiro’s Basement?
I should probably get out of here soon before he finds me. #BenshapiroBasement.
Ben Shapiro basement gang
The ultimate "my dad can beat up your dad" that actually matters. 10/10 TKO perfect
omg I didn't even know about the "jazz is a skill degradation from classical" part bahahahahaha why does anyone take this guy seriously
Because most of his fans are young men who'd rather have someone get "owned" or "destroyed by facts" than actually have a decent productive conversation.
Yes. Idiots do. That's his demographic.
Holy shit he said that? When I thought my opinion of this brat couldn't get any lower...
If anything, improvisation is a skill that raises up jazz from classical but I love both
Improvisation used to be ubiquitous in classical music (see, for example, partimenti and figured bass), but we forgot it at some point except in certain strict contexts (e.g. cadenza). Jazz kept that alive for us.
I hate rap music with a passion but I would never think to tell someone else that a genre of music that they enjoy isn't real music just because I don't like or "get" it. Music, like all art, is subjective. People can like or dislike whatever they want to.
"Jazz is a degredation of classical music..." WHAT?!! Glove thrown sir! He clearly doesn't understand John Coltrane.
this has been bothering me huge amounts lately. the "Idon't like it, so it's not art" approach to music. I've colleages that argue a lot on what music is and what music isn't. But most of the time it is boiled down to "i don't like it, so it isn't music". and it tears me apart, to admit a song isn't enjoyable for me to listen too, and than have an hercules task of explaining it why it is music.
Neo Pessimist Yeah, I especially agree with the “I don’t like it, so its not art” point. He could’ve just said he doesn’t like rap music.
Thats the worst part about discusing art, it often just boils down to people sayign "oh but i dont like it" and thats so unintresting in these kinds of discusions.
Art is relative, what maybe art to someone isn’t art to someone else. What people fail to realize is the definition of Art and what people interpret as art are two totally different things. Which is why these arguments are sort of bland and don’t help convince the party at all
this man just recommended his sponsor to Ben Shapiro. amazing.
also, apparently Birdman's soundtrack isn't music. thanks Ben.
Ben Shapiro's whole shtick is selectively appealing to the authority that validates his world view.
"So tell me why I'm wrong"
*no problem.*
Oh boy, a new video correcting Bencil Sharpener
"My father went to music school" yes Ben we all had that class twice a week alternating with gym good observation.
“Jazz is a degradation of skill from classical.”
Oof! My brain!
My greatest passion is classical music, but I always try to keep my options open and love listening to new things. That said, I have essentially no knowledge on rap and/or hip hop, so I'm not able to defend it adequately when I hear people saying stuff like this. You said everything I was thinking about, and then some. Having a preference for a certain genre of music doesn't mean you have to degrade all the others.
Also, I actually screamed at my phone when you played that last quote by Ben Shapiro. What the fuck is wrong with that guy??!
There's music without any of these
*Plays John Cage's 4'33"*
What isn't Ben Shapiro wrong about?🙄
We all know why Ben doesn't think it's music; because it's a product of a culture that he thinks is "degenerate" (i.e. black culture), and anything that falls outside of his preconceived bubble is disgusting to him. The fact that he goes on to denigrate jazz, another form of traditionally black music, is even more evidence of this.
He's emotionally driven and racist, plain and simple. So much for facts over feelings.
"This is my new ballet, Rite of Spring." - Igor Stravinsky
"That doesn't fit the definition of real music." - Someone everyone forgot about because they never created anything.
Ben who? Back to writing music now.
Who would you be, by chance?
Well said
It won't surprise anyone to learn that there were people who thought that the more streamlined gallant style of Mozart and Haydn was a dumbing-down of Baroque music, which was much more contrapuntal and ornamented.
Wait. The rite of spring does have melody, harmony and rythm. They're complex but they're there. I'm sorry. I get the sentiment of your post and I agree. But all three elements are very present.
@@schniT_T like in hip hop
When I first heard Shapiro’s argument one thing that automatically made me dismiss his argument was that he said:
“There’s not a lot of melody, there’s not a lot of harmony” if his argument is that in order to have music you need melody, harmony, rhythm. He is saying “there is not a lot of” it so he’s indeed saying there is some, which by his own definition means rap and hip hop is music.
Ah, I just posted this exact same thing haha.
This dude is such a moron.
All he does is talk fast and hope you didn't catch everything. Then when you say, "sorry, what was that" he makes fun of you for not understanding the situation.
He's a con man
“I’m going to assume he’s serious.”
Well there’s your first mistake.
"Professional Opinion Haver"
If rap "doesnt have a lot of harmony" and "doesnt have a lot of melody", doesn't that imply there is some harmony and melody in rap? And if music needs rhythm, harmony, and melody, doesn't that mean rap is music (using his logic)?
🤔 hmm
Ben Shapiro gets DESTROYED by music theorist
"rock is a degradation in skill from jazz"
ah yes. of course. these 2 things contain similar elements and are therefore comparable and one is objectively better than the other. that's certainly how it works -.-'
what is this shapiro person on?
"I'm just going to assume ignorance on Ben Shapiro's part"... Me too...
Shapiro's entire gig depends on him pretending that facts that contradict his audience's feelings don't exist.
About most things.
I bet theres a video about Ben Shapiro saying this entitled "BeN Shapiro absolutely destroys rap loving snowflakes"
So when someone sings "The Star-Spangled Banner" A Cappella, that's monophony? Since you can harmonize it many ways (and people do)
As long is its just being sung by one person (or even a group singing just the main melody), then yep! Obviously, some group a capella works aren't monophonic, because the singers are harmonizing the main line, but one person singing anything without pitched accompaniment is monophonic!
"Ben Shapiro is wrong"
You could have just left it there
Jazz is probably one of my favorite forms of music. Ben just dismissing it without so much as a justification is one of the most insulting things I've ever heard.
That was a legitimately good transition into the sponsor.
yeah, but did you know that Ben Shapiro’s music theorist father went to music school?
"Admittedly, this is a bit harder than the others" Proceeds to draw Battletoads.
THAT is a goddamn win, all by itself.
I really hope ben Shapiro sees this with all my heart.
10:30 "that changes everything" , *draws fire nation emblem* . You are amazing! xD
Ben Shapiro has one of the most exquisitely smooth brains in the world
I see what you did there.
*S M O O T H B R A I N*
His brain is just the most perfect sphere
It's just like a shark!
Gíw Ongrataþ It isn’t hard to polish something the size of a ping pong ball.
I played an old flute solo written for one flute, no accompaniment. I can't immediately remember the name or composer, but it's considered a classical flute standard. Most classically trained flute players play it at some point in their lives. According to Shapiro, this classical flute solo isn't even music.
I feel like saying one genre of music is better than another is like saying 'steak tastes better than cake'. Theyre sort of similar in broad classifications, both are food, but other than that theyre completely different. Steak is your meal, meant to be eaten slowly and to fill you up, and cake is a dessert to sort of cleanse your palette. Theyre meant to be enjoyed differently, so its weird to compare them. Classical and rap werent meant to be listened to looking for the same thing, so of course youre not gonna like it if you start thinking 'ugh theres no harmony. The melody's way too basic too." Rap isnt meant for that.
There's so much wrong with his definition of music. Like, music has to have harmony? So anything that consists of one instrument isn't music? I guess Taps isn't real music either then?
It's best practice to go by "If Ben Shapiro says something, the opposite is probably true."
10:32 I was prepared for it, yet it still made my skin crawl, well done.
He sounds like some of the 50 60 (etc) somethings in the late 1950s who said Rock and Roll wasn't music. When people don't like a style of music they attack it by calling it "not music". I don't like rap/hip hop either (usually) but to me it's obviously a form of music. Ben also doesn't seem to understand how language and words form and evolve over time. Also, I'm glad his father was unanimously elected king of how the word music is defined and classified. I'm going to tell my neighbor how my cousin says his tree in his front yard is a corn stalk, because that makes it so and carries weight.
Ben Shapiro must've never listened to Bone Thugs-N-Harmony
“...I’m just going to assume ignorance on Shapiro’s part...”
> Copy
> Paste
> Basically all Ben Shapiro utterances
Nah, just racism
what about the rubato at the beginning of "all I want for christmas is you" you COWARD
Also I think it's worth noting (from a musicology standpoint) that it's literally always been trendy to hate currently-popular black music. Today it's "rap doesn't meet the standards of music" but Adorno staked his whole career on "jazz doesn't meet the standards of music" in the early 20th century. Then white people got okay with jazz, but black people had largely moved on to R&B, which white people weren't cool with until Elvis and the Beatles started covering black songs. Don't forget that disco, which largely appealed to people of color and The Gays™, was also actively stamped out by DJs who wanted to impose a strict regimen of Led Zeppelin, Queen, etc. Like, we can talk all we want about the specific reasons he's wrong, but that ignores the fact that his actual problem (as with his general political outlook) is that he doesn't value black people.
Like "degradation" jesus christ just use the original German Entärtete musik (and the poster for that exposition is... telling)
nothing else to be said. this is 100% of it
Hey, dude, i agree with you on everything, but the term was "Entartete [Kunst]"... You don't need to put tremas in every word just because it is German :)
I think you are misjudging Adorno. There were plenty of people that disliked Jazz for unstated racist reasons and dressed it up in an appeal to traditional standards of western music, but Adorno is more nuanced than that. Adorno in short thinks the Jazz audience consists of poseurs, who claim to like Jazz because of the improvisation, the syncopation and the extended harmony. But then Adorno argues they only like improvisation as 8 bar solo spots and don't like syncopation if it changes (to Adorno repetition doesn't legitimize) and all those upper extensions still sit on very traditional western progressions. So what the audience really wants is a steady rhythmic structure, harmony that follows traditional lines and a mostly through-composed piece of music, while pretending to like the music for the few elements unlike this. To Adorno Jazz just isn't Jazz enough - he wants more improvisation, more changes in the syncopation along with a couple of time signature changes and more level 6 on the Neely scale. He doesn't dislike Jazz for not being like classical music, his gripe is that it is too much like classicla music. And he blames the audience, noting that there short passages in various styles of Jazz that show that the musicians would be capable of making a Jazz that would live up to its ideas, but the audience couldn't take it for extended periods of time, so these are kept short. It also should be noted that Adorno had written about neoclassical composers like Hindemith and Strauss before taking on Jazz and levels similar criticism of sticking too closely to old structures and on the other hand praised 12-tone composers like Schönberg (and written serial music himself).
@fizzylimon I'm not a big fan of Adorno's writings on music, but this is a total mischaracterization of his thoughts on jazz.
This rebuttal was pretty refreshing for me because it brought up all the conclusions I came to when I first heard Shapiro's most recent statement on the matter, as well as several that had not occurred to me. I think Shapiro's opinion highlights the trappings of trying to attribute neat definitions on something as inherently nebulous as music, which is something to be made and enjoyed far more than it is made to be defined and categorized.
Nitpicking details instead of caring more about reflecting cultural experiences is basically Shapiro's MO
It's a shame that he doesn't even get the details right. I'm all for being a pedant, but he only wants to give the impression that he's a pedant to hide that he's actually just a racist.
there's literally a subgenre of rap called Melodic LOL
Ben Shapiro's argument is so silly. Supposing rap were really only "rhythmic speaking" (it's not, but let's suppose) and therefore doesn't count as music, because music includes melody and harmony in addition to rhythm. Well, singing is just "melodic speaking" and therefore by that argument shouldn't count as music either.
Or, well, drums. Drums are (with exceptions) just rhythm with no melody or harmony. So drums then aren't music either.
So by Ben's own argument, rapping, on its own, isn't music just like singing and drumming isn't music, but if you put it together with the other two missing elements it would be. Like if you sang in harmony over the rhythm of someone rapping, it would be just as much music as singing over the rhythm of someone drumming.
On a side-note it irks me when in a conceptual analysis one of the necessary conditions for applicability is a subset of another. If something is music if and only if it has rhythm, melody, and harmony, why include melody? It's a subset of harmony. You can't have harmony without melody, surely, so why not just say something is music if and only if it has rhythm and harmony, since presumably Ben wouldn't count something having only rhythm and melody (but no harmony) as music either?
Bone thugs n harmony exists. His argument was invalid as soon as it came out of his mouth lol
Ben Shapiro makes records with REASON and LOGIC pro
he's a pro tool with some serious audacity
If a musician uses Logic and Reason to produce his music, does that make him an atheist music producer?
No harmony? You haven't heard Bone Thugs, son.
"Ben Shapiro" and "is wrong" on the same title, my God
Ben Shapiro needs to finally admit that he's actually a 60 year old man who found the fountain of youth so we can finally start saying "Okay Boomer" To him.
Ben "everything that has a relation with the afro American community is shit" Shapiro