Audio Cables: Scientific proof of impact on sound?
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- Опубліковано 28 лип 2022
- The presence or absence of audible effects of audio cables in hi-fi playback (and recording) is a long-standing debate that hasn't been settled yet. Measurements in most cases seem to deny this effect, while the ears of several audiophiles in contrast state a clear sonic difference. New scientific research presented in this video may be shedding some new light on this issue.
Presented peer-reviewed papers of Milind N. Kunchur:
Article 1: boson.physics.sc.edu/~kunchur/...
Article 2: boson.physics.sc.edu/~kunchur/...
Contra:
Amir on AudioScienceReview apparently debunked the last paper (so I guess we are still on the search) but the topic is still controversial: • Scientific Proof of Me...
UPDATE: Prof. Kunchur reached out and claimed he is writing a new article and stands for his past articles. Who is right? Here is a summary of his reply to the ASR video: boson.physics.sc.edu/~kunchur/...
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#audiocables #hificables #audiophilecables
Contra:
Amir on AudioScienceReview apparently debunked the last paper (so I guess we are still on the search) but the topic is still controversial: ua-cam.com/video/a0p3D_Gv6IY/v-deo.html
UPDATE: Prof. Kunchur reached out and claimed he is writing a new article and stands for his past articles. Who is right? Here is a summary of his reply to the ASR video: boson.physics.sc.edu/~kunchur/Response_to_ASR_comments.pdf
prof. Kunchur response is actually ad hominem attack, not very academic one and it is always sign of lack of arguments. I don't take sides here, just from personal expirience it is always like that. It is very difficult to digest such communication.
Thanks for your neutral and very informative video and for providing links.
Amir was spot on. Engineers understand this.
I decided to run some of the the Prof's rebuttals through ChatGPT and it appears they favour the Professor's position more than ASR and it appears that Amir's point about the specific cables being tested was not accurate either.
Stands for his pass articles? The one that he apologized for due to it's glaring mistake? The Professor got schooled by ASR.
For those saying they can hear a difference. Make sure you try to do a blind test. The mind can trick your senses in telling you what to hear. If I tell you I am plugging in a $1000 interconnect that I claim is a great sounding cable and then ask for your sonic opinion, I have already planted the idea in your head that you should hear a difference.
I am not saying people don’t hear a difference, just that you should be mindful of how what you hear is could be influenced by things other than the sound quality of a cable…
Lastly, to each their own, if you see a benefit in a certain cable then who am I to judge…
The first paper was entirely blind tests.
In blind tests you do not have a clue of the equipment you are "testing".
We aren't judging the people who buy cables, we are judging the con artists who sell them.
I don't want my friends and community of fellow audiophiles to get ripped off. So I certainly will judge the snake oil salesmen and their customers that enforce their false belief.
@@rexsterling7346 If you see your sister falling by the way, Just stop and say, "You're going the wrong way"
Some Good Tracks For Evaluation Of Midrange.
For midrange evaluation tracks, we are not looking for reference quality recordings. Something like Steely Dan's Gaucho album is so clean it will sound great on just about anything. You'd have to have some pretty bad equipment to hear grain on that album. We are looking for records that will sound really special only if your system is really open resolving and pretty much distortion free. If you acquire new cables, speakers, a new phono cartridge etc. one record that will clearly let you hear the degree of midrange improvement is the album American Beauty by The Grateful Dead. Ripple on side 2 is one of my favorite tracks to go to in order to guage improved midrange. There are mandolins in the background of this song. How well you can hear them tells you a lot. Bigger sounds are easier to hear. A mandolin makes a small sound; it's smaller than a guitar. When the mandolins are played fast as on this track, if your new cables or whatever have superior transient response and are more open, you can hear the mandolins with impressive resolution. You can hear every note and you can hear they are still going, when before it sounded like they stopped. Toward the end of the track, they are playing continuously. American Beauty is one of the 20 best albums of all time. The opening track is the only track that isn't above average.
Another track that I recall really opening up and revealing all it's inner details and beauty when I upgraded cables is the track Searchin' So Long from Chicago's greatest hits. About 2/3 into the track it becomes a mostly instrumental sequence. Hearing it with improved openness, resolution and purity is a real joy. Here are some other great tracks that show up midrange improvements and are midrange classics.
Jezebel-Sade
Suite Judy Blue Eyes-CSN
Sweet Home Alabama-Lynard Skynard
Light My Fire-The Doors
Dreamer-Supertramp
A Remark You Made-Weather Report
Crazy Love-Poco
I read an article where they did a blind test using expensive speaker cables and coat hanger wire. No one could tell the difference apparently.
A coat hanger = solid core which are what most expensive cables use. Plus it was using a certain brand of cable that was famous for capacitance issues.
Ran out of normal speaker cable - used 5 meters of normal power cable you use for 230V, 16A normally. No issues, didn't need to impregnate it with snake oil ;-)
I'm going to throw a few things out there... just in the form of "things to consider"...
First of all I agree that it is good that actual studies are being done on this subject.
Just for background....
- I have an engineering background and I do tend to be skeptical of a lot of the claims made about cables.
(I would go as far as to say that I personally believe that MOST claims for significant audible differences between cables are exaggerated or nonexistent.)
- I work for Emotiva Audio (who is a manufacturer of amplifiers, source components, and amplifiers).
These are just my suggestions about "things to keep in mind" - based on my personal experience.
1. The suggestion about the audibility of variations in the time domain makes perfect sense, and I am aware of recent studies suggesting that our ears are far more sensitive to small arrival-time variations that previously assumed. (Which suggests that we can in fact hear differences in timing smaller than those associated with the period of the highest frequencies we can hear directly.) However we must still maintain perspective in terms of the magnitude of the differences we're talking about.
2. The effect that cable inductance and capacitance has on "temporal factors" depends to a major degree on the output circuitry of the source component and the input circuitry of the destination component. Therefore we might reasonably expect very different results depending on what equipment we use to perform the test.
3. When talking about audible differences between DIGITAL audio cables we must take the equipment involved into account. Sources may have widely varying amounts of noise or jitter in their output; BUT DACs also vary equally widely in their sensitivity to these things. For example, a DAC which is very sensitive to jitter may sound very different with different sources, or even different cables, whereas a DAC with internal re-clocking should be totally unaffected by those differences. But, if the DAC has internal re-clocking, then we need to account for jitter in the internal circuitry. And, even if a DAC is relatively sensitive to jitter, if it also has a high level of internal jitter, then differences in source jitter will be masked by the internal jitter until they exceed it, at which point they will become audible. And, even beyond that, "jitter" is not a single thing; jitter has frequencies, and a frequency spectrum, and a distribution, and sometimes even a distribution waveform. It has also been claimed that different DAC topologies have very different sensitivities to some of these issues (for example that R2R DAcs are less sensitive to jitter than D-S DACs.)
4. It's also worth noting that, with coaxial cable, capacitance is related to conductor surface area and spacing. (So, for example, a relatively slim cable, but which has a very thin central conductor, can still have relatively low capacitance.)
5. The other thing I would stress... and which many engineers find offensive about many audiophile products... is cost. To put it quite bluntly, even high quality cable, of the sort you would use for an interconnect cable, with teflon dielectric, good shielding, and low capacitance, still only costs a few dollars a foot at most. Therefore the absurdly high prices charged for many "audiophile cables" simply are not justified by their use of "expensive high quality materials".
6. I really dislike the term "debunk"... especially when it is applied to what appears to be a sincere effort to run a proper scientific study. I also find that expectation bias can indeed work both ways... and, as long as the test itself is conducted properly, I see no problem whatsoever in "training people what to listen for". (There's a big difference between a test whose intent is to determine "what human beings are capable of hearing" and "what a typical customer is likely to notice or find significant".... and, in the former, I see no problem with pointing out to test subjects "what to listen for"... as long as the subsequent test is carefully controlled to eliminate possible bias.)
7. And, finally, I would point out that we absolutely DO know that interconnect cables CAN have an audible effect... at least sometimes. (I don't know anyone who would dispute that an interconnect with an extra few 100 pF of capacitance, between a phono cartridge and preamp, or between a high-output-impedance tube preamp and a tube power amp with a similarly high input impedance, would have a dramatic effect on easily measurable specs like frequency response.)
Unfortunately, at least in my opinion, we have a situation where so many obviously absurd claims are being made that they "drown out" the possibility of determining whether actual differences really do exist - at least in some situations.
I think the most important quality a scientist can manifest is an open mind. The lack of it is the greatest weakness of science.
Agreed
I find the conclusion that the main effect is in the time domain very interesting. I also changed interconnects the last two years because had to admit that my 'bit is a bit' attitude was audibly wrong. I ordered cables with the guarantee that I could return it if I didn't notice any improvement. I returned one cable but kept two. The usb cable between the mini pc and ddc made a big difference which I had not expected. The same with the hdmi cable between the ddc and the dac. What made the biggest improvement was the tuning of the mini pc. I downloaded the Fidelizer software which tunes the pc so the sound critical processes get the highest priority. Again the time domain of the sent bits improved and the listening experience improved tremendously. These are just my observations. Coming from a rigid 'bits are bits' position to a 'use your ears' attitude. If you don't hear any difference, fine for you but don't criticise others who do hear a difference.
being a scientist myself I can say that 2 articles aren't enough to convince a scientific community, but they can certainly stir interest of other scientists - and lead to further research.
Exactly. Of course they weren't. Statistically you need to do WAY MORE tests with people to have a significant enough chance of predicting whether people can actually perceive the difference.
But it's indeed a start. Before there was nothing. Now there is a start.
I never got why there isn't way more research into cables until now anyway... Since they are used EVERYWHERE...
As someone with a PhD in a math/stat heavy discipline, I wholeheartedly agree. I'm also an associate editor of a top 4 journal in the field. I can tell you that there is no shortage of conflicting results in the journals. A meta-analysis is necessary here.
@@jn3750 Funny, I have a similar background. The professor at uni then wanted me to study mathematics too as he thought I was very good at it. Statistics in particular… Still, it’s a good start. Good fundamental research will always be better than assumptions..
@@erwindewit4073 Stat is extremely useful. I have not seen an article in the top 5 journals in the past 20 years without heavy use of mathematical statistics. And a career in this field, not math, pays well (at least in the USA). I have had a few students whose starting salaries were 200,000+ USD.
@@jn3750 Wow, not here in the Netherlands. But yeah, that’s why a genius friend of mine moved to the US.. Still, they offered me 150k, but I don’t really want to work 60+ hours a week.. (I work 36 hours now, with 5 weeks of paid holidays)..
I find the discussion around cables to be absolutely baffling. Some people have better hearing than others, same with eyesight. Some people cant appreciate the difference between a dvd and a bluray, but I never hear calls for scientific testing being needed to prove the point. Some cables are very similar, others make a clear difference. If you're in the group of people who cant hear that difference, that sucks, and its nobodys fault, but if you cant hear it, then why is there such a need to demand scientific results if it makes no difference to your listening experience? I'm genuinely interested, because I can understand wanting to quantify how much you might be losing out on, like those with poorer eyes might want to know how much of the movie they are missing out on. What I underatand less is what could be seen as jumping on the 'cables make no difference cause science says so' bandwagon; I'm not clear on how that helps anyone. Maybe I've missed something trying to understand the nature of the debate, but would love to get some more insight into this
One of the problem is that people who claim to hear no difference are in front of what kind of system? What kind of cables? 90% of times when I ask people who fiercely claim that it's al BS, which type of quality cables that have tried...they disappear! In some cases they also told me no need, it is logic! 😱
@@anadialog thats like the same amount of logic that goes into "bits are bits", as if those bits arent going into a dac to turn the bits into an analogue signal... And as if electrical conductors are perfect. To be fair, I have done incorrect testing before, and judged no differences between cables based on listening to 30 seconds of a track and then swapping over: but if I go to 30-60 minutes of listening and switch, my brain can much better grasp the change in sound. So, perhaps some of it is down to learning how to do that sort of comparison better, which we can only do by keeping an open mind and trying different approaches
why does it "suck" if one cannot hear a difference? Maybe comments and questions like yours is the reason why people make these scientific comparisons. Some people are sick and tired of being told things like "u got a great system but why the radio shack cables? You should get these $$$ instead." Sick and tired of seeing friends getting ripped off.
@@rexsterling7346 I'm not in the business, so it makes no difference to me whether someone buys something or not. If someone has poor eyesight, and is unable to appreciate any difference between watching a movie on dvd and on bluray, to them there may be no difference in their experience, which is a shame if they are missing out, and its naturally difficult to discuss the experience of someone with better sight, because the two people have different baselines. It is my view, however, that when we start talking about things we can hear, there may well be a group of people who would be able to appreciate some difference, if they came into it with an open mind. And it isnt about spending money, its about the listening experience. I would be more than happy for someone to come to my house and make a day of it, listening to things and trying different cables, so they could find out for themselves. Sure, there will people who genuinely aren't able to hear a difference no matter what, but they wont have lost anything by trying. Realistically, I get that not everyone is going to have the opportunity to try before they buy, but sadly that could be said for all audio equipment
Based on comments so far it appears that people are falling into the usual two camps. However, I get the impression that most are not understanding the conclusions of this paper. Namely that noise, timing and transients are affected by the quality of the cable and these are perceived by the human ear, regardless of the frequency. So the usual things that people measure and then say "There is no difference between the $5 and the $500 cable" are actually irrelevant measurements. And what people say "this cable makes my headphone sound better because it tames the highs (or whatever)" are perhaps misinterpreting what they are actually hearing. Personally I have always been torn about this debate, despite the fact that I have proven to myself on a couple of occasions that cables can change the sound of something like a headphone (and I'm talking about a a cheap $10 cable that made a B&O H6 headphone have more bass and "clearer" sound than the original factory cable). I think that science is still advancing in the area of psychoacoustics. Despite what some experts would have you believe, we don't have 100% understanding of how our ears and brains perceive sound. So, statements about how "cables are just cables and they show no differences in measurements" are in the end just opinions of experts and not-so-experts that don't have the whole picture. There is more to learn.
The two camps are thinkers and feelers.
@@wrenchposting9097 There's a lot of people in between. And that drives research.
@@mccririck01 I'm sure there is a financial incentive for manufacturers of scam cables that is not mirrored for skeptics.
@@wrenchposting9097 we're not talking about manufacturers here.
I agree, still a lot to research and define better!
I haven't got much experience on audiophile cables BUT I have in the distant past done many A/B tests etc, with different people, on guitar instrument cables and guitar amp to guitar cab cables. On instrument cables there was always an audible difference between the ultra-cheap cables and the better quality cables. However, from quality cables to ultra - expensive cables sometimes most people couldn't tell the difference, other times they just sounded different but not "better", other times you could only hear a difference on specific instruments and studio set-ups etc. On the other hand, there was always a discernible difference when doing speaker cable tests. Cheap cables always sounded bad, as if you had pulled a heavy rag over the speaker cabinet. From good quality cables to very expensive cables they all sounded TOTALLY different, even a non-trained ear could hear the difference (which was not the case with instrument cables}. It then came down to what you were trying to achieve with your sound, to what you'd likely choose...
Cables do make a difference in my experience.
@Kostas Jezuz be sure to conduct your experiments correctly. There is such a phenomenon called "order effect" in that when comparing two variables, human animals have a tendency to chose the first that is presented.
Therefore, you need to split your subjects into two equal groups. The first get to hear A-B, the second get to hear B-A. Then repeat the experiment where the second group get to hear A-B and then the first group get to here B-A and average your results.
Remember, there are also other "confounding variables",
i.e. if active participants are blind or un-blinded, time of day, ambient temperature and humidity and listening position to name but a few. Designing such experiments with an adequate participant size, age range, sex and ethnically different participants is extremely difficult.
@@janedoe6350 they weren't experiments per se, more like observations. In the guitar speaker cable test described above the difference was Night and Day, we went back and forth many times, the sound was totally different between them. With instrument cables differences were more subtle, apart from a cheap coil cable that was so bad that the sound was as if you had turned the tone controls on the guitar all the way down.
The guitar passive magnetic pickup has a very small signal output and high impedance. Audio line outputs have much lower impedance and huger voltage. So passive pickups and scientific instruments are much more sensitive to cable capacitance and external noise. I have heard the difference in guitar sound swapping cables, and it is not subtle.
I think this is so true, different but not better. I think higher quality cables last longer. I think spending thousands on cables is to me, foolish. I think it would be better spent on more audio, lps, cassettes, saved digital files etc. But that's me.
An interview with Prof Kunchur would be super great!
The beauty of the balanced audio system is that any noise is cancelled out by the time it gets to the amplifier. It's taken me a few years to work out what the Hot and Cold elements meant. One is out of phase with the other. In short the noise is cancelled out leaving a noise free louder signal. 😄The cable should then have no effect on the signal. Other factors only come into play if there are very long runs of cable - as you said 11 km or longer. I have come across copper pairs as used for broadcast audio lines but the lengths are much shorter then the 11 km. The main function was for speech content as opposed to music. My electrical background means I half understand the concept. Instead of looking at a connection as a wire imagine it as a black box containing a series of passive components with capacitance resistance and inductance. All of these elements have ways to calculate the effect on the signal passing though! so as you mention When you bring your hand against a cable you are effecting the capacitance of that cable hence the change in sound. In very short runs of cable I have notices a marked improvement with upgrading connecting cables but then there is a whole rabbit hole limited by only your imagination and budget. Great Video making a complex issues understandable.
SOME HAVE SAD LOGIC...
And sadly when discussing anything, including cables, it comes out and surfaces for all to witness. Some say, "Well the music was mastered with Belden or Mogami cables in the studio, so why use esoteric cables after the fact on playback? 4 words...Why make it worse? The recording is what it is. However, unless you are using great cables and equipment, the recording is far better than you think it is. Why not try to avoid further degradation? If there's a fly in your soup, isn't that better than if there were a dozen fly's in your soup? Using mediocre cables, will multiply how many flies are in your soup with further veiling, distortion and sound stage collapsing & will give you far worse sound. Whether the recording is a good or not so good one. If a glass of water has some obvious dirt particles in it, from someone taking a pinch of dirt and dropping it in the water and If someone else comes by and does the same thing into the same water glass, will the water not look even dirtier and cloudier? The dirt particles in the water glass can represent veiling and distortion. It was a little cloudy and dirty to begin with, not perfect, but now because of what the second person did it's even worse. Is that so difficult to understand?
When the guy wrote that paper on his cable test results, his results were only about the cables he was using. If he was using the best cables in the world his results would have been about all cables, and what their ultimate capabilities and limitations are at this point in time. Of course if he was using state of the art cables, his experiments would not have been necessary. The big gulf in performance compared to run of the mill cables would have been so large that testing would not have been needed. You wouldn't need to measure something so glaringly obvious.
These people who are cable doubters and who put down cables, have never lived with anything close to a state of the art cable. Chances are they have never even been in the same room with a state of the art cable. Some of them have compared cheap cables or maybe ones that cost a hundred dollars or so, and they assume that there isn't great differences in expensive cables either. They hope that you also form a belief based on their bad inference assumption. Their motivation to force their opinion on people is that they don't understand everything there is to know about cables and without direct experience may doubt them, and they don't like companies who charge a lot of money to the consumer for what they view as snake oil. So they hope people will believe them and not get taken because of what they say, which makes them a halfway good person in addition to being a halfway dumb person. Speaking about things you've never lived with and gotten to know because of cost and doubt, and making absolutistic statements about it is dumb.
Measurement don't seem to jibe with how things actually sound. A test result measurement only tells how something sounds to a machine. We are humans, not a machine, and how it sounds to our human ears is the ONLY important thing. You can measure everything about a cake, except how it tastes.
For me the debate was over way back in the late 80's when I swapped a reasonable pair of RCA's to a set of Monster Cables (M1000 series was their top of the line back in the 80's).
The principle theories of Capacitance, inductance and resistance does some how make a very minute difference in the sound.
I don't have the gift of the golden ears nor am I a rocket scientist BUT I can definitely tell some differences in RCA and speaker cables.
Haven't tried connecting power cables yet but that I will take a very large salt shaker with me when I do decide to try it.
Excellent presentation! I am a believer and an engineer. I'd love to have relevant data (subjective as it would be) as to a coronation between wire/cable type and sound quality. Thank you for explaining cable direction. Grounding only one side would surely make the cable's direction critical for performance. One of the largest changes (improvements) I made to my system was my Phono Cable. I swear by my Hovland MG2, now discontinued.... Spin On!
Ah, so it's only a belief that an interconnect affects sound quality. A bit like Jesus or fairies. Of tcourse the capacitance with affect MM cartridges, and cables made of carbon crap like the VDH will sound worse, but the freebies in the box are ordinary screened wire, so they will sound the same as Nordost.
Great video!
Observations are right and kept tight.
I think you have made an excellent video, and are doing a great job reporting (in the true sense of that word) on the research papers - thank you.
Thanks Neil. That was my purpose. I am glad you understood that. Check the video description for a recent contra video.
I'm on board with looking for differences in the time domain. I'm not an engineer, but I've been interested in audio for a long time. It's been my opinion for many years now, that one can get very good frequency response and resolution out of very affordable modern equipment. That said, our ears, while not very reliable for scientific testing, are incredibly sensitive to any change in pitch or phase. This is how we can place sounds in 3D space in real life. (And often with incredible accuracy!)
For me personally, the battle between higher end components is fought almost entirely in the realm of "sound stage" and over-all "presentation." Objectively tiny differences make a large subjective difference in the realism and enjoyability of the music. I'm more of a headphone guy, but getting into speakers. Explaining headphone amps to one of my friends the other day, I pointed out that the frequency response, resolution and tonality were all very similar between my THX-789, Topping A90, Audio-gd Master 19 (all solid state) and Audiovalve Solaris (tube amp.) These range from $300 to $6k... However, with each step up, there is a significant (to my ear) difference in the presentation. The THX-789 sound stage is a flat mural on a wall. The A90 is much better, the Master 19 better still and has more separation and more heft. The Solaris gives up a little sheer depth, separation and possibly resolution to the Master 19, but achieves the most natural presentation.
Looping back to cables. I've heard one pair of interconnects that really stank. They were $13 XLR cables off amazon. However, my $30 World's Best interconnects sound identical to my $200 Violectric interconnects. I also can't seem to tell any difference between RCA and XLR. As for headphone cables, my silver plated stock LCD-4 cable appears to have a *hair* more resolution than a basic copper cable. I have a Cardas Clear cable and it clearly (sorry) has a more spacious presentation and wraps the sound stage backward around my head more. I can tell small but obvious differences in the way sounds decay, as was mentioned in one of the papers. (I would have never bought such an expensive cable, but I first heard it at a show. ABing my own cable on my own headphones, which are open, I heard a difference even over all the background noise of the crowd.)
What's really going on and what tricks are being played on my ears? I don't know. But for my part, I'll attest that cables can make a difference. Just, not a very big one and you probably should sort everything else out first.
The tricks being played may be psychological.
I'm sure you've heard of expectation bias and placebo effect.
Everyone is susceptible but it's hard to say for sure because it happens on a subconscious level.
That's why the existence of double blind listening tests.
@@garyluciani1082 I agree. I try to be pretty objective.. I only sat down at the Cardas table at Canjam to make small talk with Blythe, if I'm honest. I had zero expectation of hearing any difference with their headphone cable over mine, let alone with all the noise. But I did. On the other hand, I've ended up selling other expensive equipment that I liked, after finding less expensive stuff that performs as well or better.
Cables have for certain a meassurable influnce, the problem is how relevant is it? One can use the best speaker cable, but the bottleneck will be allways inside the amp and the speaker, the cables there are mostly vary basic. The crossover is even worse, printed board circuits, 1mm coils and even electrolitic caps in the way of the signal.
I used to run an audio accessories business here in the uk, where I built handmade cables from pure Silver & OCC copper, my cables were reviewed in all the major hi fi mags here in the UK. Now I run my channel as a tribute to it,, teaching people how to build them for themselves, I never measure my cables, I build lots of different designs & just listen, all of my testing is done in the dark, as your senses heighten in the dark, letting you hear the difference more easily, cables do make a difference, even if its subtle on some cables, I could go on, but we will be here for hours, great video👍 ps & some people have better hearing than others😁
I didn't know your story! Interesting, thanks for sharing that!
@@anadialog ua-cam.com/video/qa6AcyZUquk/v-deo.html
Some Good Music To Judge Cables...Or Anything.
You don't have to spend obscene amounts of money on cables. I shopped used except for a few, and my sound quality improved more than anything I could have gotten for the same price by changing components. For those highly wealthy audiophiles out there, by all means try MIT Oracle, Crystal Cable, Stealth, TOTL Nordost, even Hemingway Cables if you're really way up there. But a good chunk of the performance from stellar performers like those can be gotten for less. If you really are sold on cables, don't worry if you are buying cables costing more than your system itself. You can always upgrade your system around the cables afterward. Some cables are so good that doing that is perfectly reasonable. I've heard mid-fi systems using great cables, outperform much higher end systems using run of the mill cables.
These are some good tracks for evaluating bass performance. The selections below are not the best sound quality ever, like some minimal miked reference lps put out by some audiophile labels. But the selections below are very well recorded and well suited for using for sonic evaluation. They are all tracks from albums, not the title of the albums they come from. In this essay I will concentrate on evaluating the lower frequencies with different cables. These tracks can also be used for evaluating speakers, amps etc. Later this week I'll recommend some tracks for evaluating the midrange.
Bruiser-Tim Weisberg. This track has a very fancy bass line. The bass guitarist (who is a miracle), plays very fast and goes up and down the scales. Low bass to midbass to upper bass. He's not playing boom, he's playing tunes with this bass guitar. Very impressive. If your cables are capable of great bass transient response, what he is doing will sound effortless and there is perfect delineation; there is no blurring together of notes. Each note, though played fast is perfectly defined. The bass line literally propels the music along. Lesser cables will make this sound muddy and that effortlessness isn't there to nearly the same degree..
New Frontier-Donal Fagen from The Nightfly. There is a bass line that goes through this whole track and just won't quit. The bass here should sound really transparent, with an amazing degree of fleetness and texture that the amazing transparency lets through. Lesser cables will cause the bass to disappear at times and take effort to follow it.
No Ordinary Love-Sade. Mine is from The Best Of Sade cd. Here the bass line is a little redundant, but its a good test of how deep your low frequency reach is. At the end of each bass phrase, the bass goes up into the upper bass for a moment. The low bass should sound deep and heavy, the upper bass should not, and there should be an effortless transition. The bass will sound so much more tactile and deep with the right cables.
Time Loves A Hero-Little Feat (live) from.the LP Waiting For Columbus. The fanciful bass guitar playing throughput this track goes fairly deep and then goes back up and has a lot of midbass detail. Very rhythmic showcase between the drummer and bass guitar player. With improved cables the definition and tactile underpinning is very improved. It sounds loose and springy with lesser cables.
Many years ago, the audio accessory of the year, voted by the personnel of The Absolute Sound was a spray you wiped on the jackets of your speaker cables and interconnects. It was made by Nordost. It had anti-static properties and it collapsed the static field which is around everything. Wiping down shelves with it, that your equipment was on, wiping down your equipment itself by spraying a cloth with it, being careful not to get it on any connection terminals. At TAS they only vote something Product Of The Year if it makes an amazing improvement to the sound. After wiping things down with it, the sound had fuller high frequencies, better presence and palpability, more openness and even better bass. There are unknown invisible fields of all sorts around us, and it affects the performance of electronics. Magnetic field, static fields etc. Some would say snake oil fields, but as usual they've never tried or lived with the products they are accusing of that. This product worked. Making your higher performing cables perform that much better.
Thank you so much for sharing with us!
How to test speaker cables with single driver ( full range) or 2way speaker or 3way speaker 🤔 which speakers gives good results.?
Excellent Guido! 👍 BTW, I see that you have misbehaved and have once again been banished to the small room.
Oh yes my friend... A couple of excellent examples in my case involve your own highly recommended OCC Zavfino Arcadia interconnects 😊 A couple of very simple cases: 1) I had AQ Big Sur's going from my phono amp to my amp. I replaced them with the Zavfino's. *NO* bloody contest! The Big Sur's were thin and 'bright'. The Zavfino's were MUCH smoother, more extended, and WAY deeper in soundstage. Hands down!
2) And this one was quite surprising... I had switched my Big Sur's to my DAC, from the DAC to the amp. I switched them out and replaced them with the AQ Victoria's (the ones with the funky batteries along the wire [DBS] which some say are bogus, some love them) *WOW!* The DAC suddenly went WAY deeper in the bass, the soundstage became WAY deeper. So, there you go... 😁
Thanks for sharing that!
I know cables make a difference but comparing RCA to balanced interconnects is invalid. The simple reason is that they have partially different signal paths, so you're not testing the cables. RCA to RCA or balanced to balanced, using the same inputs is the only way to do it. Even using different inputs of the same type is wrong because they often have different components in the signal path.
Agreed. I have always wondered why we switched from DIN cables to RCA in the 70s. DIN (Deutschland Industrial Norm) can be wired balanced as where RCA (Recording Company of America) can only be wired un-balanced.
@@janedoe6350 I don't know either but I would guess RCA was simpler and cheaper.
Agreed, the first paper tests different cables on different amplifier circuitry. Not an independent comparison.
@@slinkman79 Yes, and the problem is that if a person testing cables makes such a fundamental mistake, it undermines anything else they have to say.
@@audioupgrades Yes, The Japanese, who were making most of the hi-fi kit in the 70s we probably inclined to go with a US standard as that was their biggest customer base. Also, the average Joe can more easily solder a RCA than a DIN plug. But lets face it, on signal runs shorter than 10 meters, un-balanced is fine.
Funny though how the computer industry came around to using the British Jack plug (formally called the Union Jack Connector) and available in both 1/4" and 1/8" (6mm & 3.5mm). This can also be wired in unbalanced stereo and balance mono).
I think they did a 2mm Jack too for Tape remote control.
Shame mini-XLR was never adopted for home audio as i believe that that's the best of the bunch.
Two problems,
1.-No all the pople have the same skills to hear diferences in audio. I have two hands and I don’t have the skills to paint like Caravaggio or to play an instrument like Arthur Gramiaux. Not because some people have the love for music is more capable than others to hear differences.
2.-NO cientific instrument or any kind of instrument like an spectrum analizer or an oscilloscope have the same sesitivity to measure all the complexity of sound as our brain and ears does. Is different. Some people believe their oscilloscope masure the same as our brain hears. Very wrong.
Regards
Spot on! 👍
Not only are cables system dependent but there are cables that work best in certain parts of the chain of a audio system. The obvious is phono cables. Being a low level signal there are definitely cables that work better than others in that section of the chain.
Another thing i wanted to acknowledge and that is cables prices. First you cannot assume that if a cable is more expensive it is good. Cable design is both art and science. Some higher end cables are custom made and are using custom designs and can be rather expensive to manufacture. Also understand most audio cable manufactures have to recoup costs of making prototypes to come up with final designs. Those costs are also embedded into the final price of their products. So it comes down to trial and error. Do not assume more expensive means it must be better. But at the same time be leery of cheap cables as they are likely not using high quality conductors, dielectrics, connectors etc.
Intanto grazie per questo fantastico canale e per gli interessantissimi contenuti. Per la mia ventennale esperienza nel campo hifi consumer e pro, ho raggiunto la consapevolezza che l'unico cavo che fa una differenza chiara e udibile è il cavo phono del giradischi per via delle capacita ed altri fattori, per le altre interconnessioni ci facciamo influenzare dall estetica e dal prezzo ma secondo me le differenze sonore sono trascurabili.
And the battle rages on. Reality is believers can spend as much as they want on whatever cables and interconnects and non-believers can spend as little as they want. Whatever makes you happy.
Thank you very much for this video!
I respect this guy's video he says there's an impact on sound total BS we have hooked oscilloscopes running sound test and signals and there's no difference a lot of this s*** is a waste of money
I am a recent "convert" to acknowledging audible differences in the AC power cable used. And I am guessing that we know even less about why this might be, than we are about interconnect cable, or speaker cables.
Are there any resources that we know of, about AC power cables and how/why they can affect the sound quality of a stereo system?
IMPROVING THE CABLES YOU ALREADY HAVE.
When you plug a cable into a terminal, input or output, it seems like a great connection. In reality, metal observed under a powerful enough microscope, reveals its surface to be full of pot hole like craters. Because of this, when the metal from the cable plug is hooked up to a terminal on the back of a piece of audio gear, there is in actuality very little surface to surface contact area, because both surfaces are full of inward cratering. There are electrical contact enhancing liquids/gels on the market that enhance electrical contact and fill in the gaps of these surface potholes in the metal to increase contact area. The first one I remember was a product from Sumiko around the late 1980s called TWEEK. A lot of people didn't follow directions and put too much on and gunked up their connections. There are more modern and effective contact enhancers. One is from Mapleshade audio, which is a gel. I tried it and it made a very noticeable improvement. More open, clearer, cleaner and the real surprise was better bass. They give you enough in a little container, which might last a lifetime. You only reapply it once in a long time. It's called Silclear and it has some silver in the gel. Silver is the best conductor. There are other audio electrical enhancers on the market which unlike the Mapleshade are very expensive, but worth it to some..
Indeed, I did a video on the subject: ua-cam.com/video/nPRmEa2PB1U/v-deo.html
so while you will have about 0.01Ohms contact resistance without the gel and 0.001Ohms with the gel the whole snake oil will make exacly 0.000000000 impact on the sound
If there were time-domain errors it would be incredibly easy to test. Does the cable transmit a nice-looking square wave. If so there's no audible difference. Now put a square wave through some speakers and see what the waveform looks like from a microphone. You'll be able to see that speakers mess up the waveform much more than cables.
the speakers *and* the microphone...
Each channel has to be done independently to eliminate any time-domain errors due to "Comb effect".
@@wrenchposting9097 Yes, correct-but that can be measured before the test, and calibrated out of the result.
If you hear it, it has an impact, if you don't, it doesn't ! Simple! But I hear it, am I imagining it? I highly doubt it!
@@analoguecity3454 Many audiophile forums banned talk of double-blind tests for a reason.
Thank you for theses articles !
You are very welcome!
Galen Gareis from Belden has demonstrated through measurements that loudspeaker reactance impacts phase shift/time domain in the audible frequency spectrum.
While there “could” be differences in cables & interconnects. It’s the company’s selling them at $20k plus prices that are ripping consumers . 2 x 2mtr speaker cables at those prices is ludicrous. Just because a cables cost more, doesn’t mean it’s a better cable
BALANCED interconnects people should definitely try. Some have 3 pins, some have 5 pins, some have 8 pins, of the ones I've seen. I heard that they have 3 db higher output than RCA interconnects. If that's so there's a measurable improvement right there. For those who like to try and reduce the world to numbers and graphs. I don't know if anyone has ever tried to measure the resolution capability of the human ear. The resolution of the human eye (our main sense) is the equivalent of 576 megapixels. Believe it or not in photography circles, there is something analogous to the analog vs. digital debate in audio. Diehards of sophisticated film cameras claiming the picture quality is better than digital cameras. Once again, digital is more convenient, and in this case, "Worlds" more convenient. I have been using a 5 pin balanced interconnect in my headphone system. I am extremely pleased with the sound. They cable new, costs well under a thousand. It is made in Texas. I am using a European brand integrated amp for my headphone listening. I wish I could easily use this cable for my speaker listening, but the amps I use for that system are not European and do not have inputs for balanced cables. They are a better connection than RCA cables.
It is not correct that the balanced cables have more output, it is the electronics behind the balanced connections that are specified to a higher output. Balanced connections reduce
noise and uneven harmonics, but often adds a circuit more in each end. That is because only a few devices are born balanced - like for instance DAC´s. Most other circuits are un-
balanced, and needs a converter in each end. That adds a lot of extra circuits, often with op-amps, that don´t add to a better sound. So things are not so simple in the end.
I got into Cable’s years ago
I’m surrounded by non-audiophile vinyl collectors
We would swap cables and the sound would change
But many people said that it’s impossible
It actually got me interested in physics
Something weird is going on.
How long did it take to swap cables?
Yes indeed... psychology.
If it takes more than 5 seconds to swap, the test is useless. It needs to be instantaneous for it to hold any scientific value. And even then it needs to be blind..... Preferably double-blind.
@@jakobole Absolutely correct. Auditory memory, called Echoic memory by psychology and neurology researchers in this field show that it is ephemeral in nature, lasting on average about 4 seconds. Indeed, comparisons tests should be conducted at the very least in a blind manner to reduce the psychological expectation bias and then run for a minimum number of trials that is statistically significant and reproducible.
@@JesusMartinez-mk6fc Couldn't have said it better
Compairing Kimber Kable PBJ. Vs. Audioquest Evergreen. Which is not a fair comparison. The Kimber Kable cost 3 times as much. I replaced all my interconnects with PBJ. I was missing half of the bells on Fleetwood Mac. As the music becomes more resolving the highs become clearer. Interconnects matter. The material and design.
Thanks 👍 interesting video. I‘m part of the group that is convinced, cables do not sound. But I‘m convinced too, that air in cables can reduce the losses while transportation of the signal. And that‘s the reason, why I’m trusting in cables of the German producer InAkustik for lots of years. By the way this company involves institutions for disabled people for some jobs. That‘s apart from the fine quality of their cables one more reason to buy this brand. 👋
Air insulation, if done correctly, is the best!
Hi
I am an audiophile person but didn't know about the impact of connecting cables on sound till around 10 years ago I bought an bat vk500 amp the seller kept changing the connecting cables and each time he did the sound changed too since then I became a believer in high end cables.
We don't need a chef to tell us the food taste good we have a toung to tell us so it's the same with cables we don't need a chart or lab test to tell us so we have ears.most people who don't believe in high end cables they either have low end equipments or have problem with their hearing no matter how expensive is the cable it's not going to make adcom to sound like pass labs! It's like putting Ferrari tire on your Ford and expecting it to ride like Ferrari it will never happen.
Been watching your show for a year now like it very much keep up the good work by the way where in Europe are you?
Thanks! Italy!
What is the difference between an s cable and a g cable? This is beyond the scope of these studies but do you think speaker cables make more of a difference than interconnects?
Yes, I do!
Do you in the future an review of the Ludic Magica speaker cable
Maybe...I lived their correctly-priced aesir power cable.
Does this mean that I can use 16 or 18 gauge lamp cord for my speakers (that I’ve already been using)? Does this mean that I can use the $8 rca style analog interconnects (that I’ve already been using)?
Can you use wooden wheels on your car? Sure... What's your point exactly?
@@erwindewit4073 It was kind of a joke question. I was just trying to rattle the cages of audiophile community. In all truthfulness, I’ve never been able to hear differences between the expensive audiophile cables and the “generic” cables.
@Douglas Blake It might be YOUR ears not hearing the difference…
@@bikdav Be happy! I’ve only met 2 people so far who couldn’t hear the difference. Saves you money! But the thing is, you might be the odd one out.. Then again, I’d prefer to NOT hear the difference…
@Douglas Blake Well, be happy. That keeps it cheap. I noticed that too with a friend's system. She runs a Naim Uniti Atom with Harbeth P3ESR 40th Anniversary Edition speakers. She was treated like dirt at audioshops when she was shopping for... speaker cables. So I used my old friends (very good solid copper core cat 5e UTP cable, which I have used for all my home systems except for the really good one). After a couple of weeks I returned with my 35 euro per meter cable from van den Hul. We both heard the difference, it was smoother, bit more bass, bit smoother top end. But 35x better? Not in our lifetimes. So she still uses the UTP cables. And I do too with everything else. Things were a bit different in my experience with interconnects. Which is probably why they used these in the scientific papers.
And realistically. It may not be worth to YOU, but it just MAY be for others..
The reason I look at measurements of cables, (speaker, interconnect, or power cables), is because it gives us a basis with which to start the comparisons … it is completely void of the subjective views people bring to their listening, tastes, and preferences. From all the measurements I’ve seen with ASR, Audiohalics, et al., is that there is little to no difference in the cables that have been measured. In fact, many of the multiple thousand dollar cables with electrical boxes built in make the cable worse! What differences that are measured are well below the threshold of hearing and even if present, are not audible. At the end of the day, if you have the money to spend on expensive cables, interconnects, etc., then by all means, knock your self out and enjoy your system, but don’t fool yourself into thinking those cables are any better than standard, low cost cables. We could solve this debate if Nordost, Audio Quest, et al are that much better if those companies would simply publish there measurements that show them to be as good and how they do what the claim they do. They don’t, because they can’t … so go enjoy your gear, whatever you have, and stop the BS on this cable or that cable is better, because even the OEMs can’t show how there cables are better outside of subjective testimonials and anecdotal stories.
Interesting. finally. I asked a brilliant physicist (he builds valve amplifiers as a job) about cables. And he told me, with his limited equipment, he was never able to figure out WHY it makes a difference. But after 40 years and many many visitors, he knows that it DOES make a difference. He just didn't quite know why... For optical Toslink cables they seemingly did figure it out. As the light reflects in the glass tube, it moves from one side to the next. But some light loses out of the sides (if the angle is too steep), or, it still reflects, but at a longer amplitude. This supposedly introduces tiny timing differences.. Time smearing. Which is supposedly why coax sp/dif is better (and AES/ABU with connected clocks the best).
But to see someone capable trying to figure it out in the end... Really cool!
Cool indeed!
Having a serious and scientific discussion about this matter is always a good thing.
Maybe I miss something but what kind of "audio cables" are we talking about? Standard line level signal to a preamp'? Turntable cables to a preamp? Mike cable to a preamp'? Cables between amps and speakers? AC cables, in 110v 60Hz or 220v 50Hz? All of these in the same study?
The laws of physic give us an easy way to measure the crude difference between 2 almost identical signals withouth bothering 90 persons for doing a blind test. It has something to do with phases. 😉
Personnaly in my studio, and regarding the audio pathes (from instruments, mikes and effects to mixing system and from mixing system to monitors, not the AC path as I've no control about what's behind the wall plug) I try to use good quality cables, balanced if necessary and possible, with good plugs. No less, not much.
But I'm not an audiophile, I just make music (the thing audiophile are listening).
I only skimmed the articles and it seemed to be interconnects (RCA cables between components)
@@drdelewded Thank you for the info. To be honest I thought it was that but, as wer'e supposed to be in the objectiv hard reality (despite being in the audiophile world 😉), it's better to say it.
Furthmerore, this scientific article talks about cables but does it take in account the plugs used? A good cable with a poor plug is as valuable as its plugs (the old story of the weakest link and the strong chain, you know...).
@@FLH3official
The articles have been ripped apart once you search them online
I had gone though few era of my beliefs . First I had very appealing to anyone mono tube set which apparently was using interesting old fashioned electrical mains cable for speakers.
When later I switched to the same or simmilar stereo I couldn't repeat that effect so with years I started doubt about that cable which was apparently unique and gone already.
With best my speaker combination I decided to arrange speaker connection with two separate conductors consisting of insulated single wires. And at that time using pure noise to compare wires I observed evident wider sounding so I decided it as a must. Sopranos were always welcomed through years
Eollowing years I changed concept to pure widerange speakers instead of 2,5 band transmission lines That concept is in my opinin reflecting the true sound in best way and is reach in "fullrange sopranos" At that point I started to reverse from hunting for sopranos because it is enough now and any more affects me the general impression
I found at that point that that special wires which even I placed few years earlier exactly 4 cm each from other are not inputting in any observed way to impression and due to their complication and enough level of sopranos masking effect to all above 12 kHz I just replaced them with general polivinyl cables even much thinner than previous. By way I listen to average audio power 0,25 - 0,5 Watt
I made installation of electrostatic tweeters to check if I need more high sopranos and I do not now . .
For me special speaker cables are now ended history. I know they make difference but with achieved reality which is just the same as from begining of my story it is far too low level to be noticed and I think that band range around 15kHz- 20 kHz may be even wrong to miss. I proven that spakers deliver them but better I do not force it in any way.May be general cables work as kind of high filtering but it suites me.
I have proof....tried to share it and I was crucified. I know that different cables definitely and absolutely affect sound differently and that's enough for me. I have spectragrams that prove it without a doubt for me. I will not share them or explain them. This post is just for those that truly feel that they do affect sound.
As I see it, the impact of interconnect cables and speaker cables etc. on sound can also be stated as causing changes in the output of the transducers that couple to the air that transfers to our ears which are also transducers. Ears and brains are extraordinarily sensitive and amazing and as measurement devices are also subject to psychology and neurology as was mentioned.
Best double blind listening tests are still only one set of data that should be considered. What about tests that measure the motion of the output transducers? Speakers. Using ears connected to brains is one way but another way would be to use calibrated microphones to record the output and use computation to show differences in the recordings. Or how about laser interferometry where lasers capture the extraordinarily small motion differences of the output transducers, speakers? Measurement of the transducer motion directly or the air motion directly is far less subjective. I’m not suggesting we eliminate the double blind listening tests just that we add data that can measure the same things that are ears are sensitive to hearIng.
Manufactures of transducers and speaker systems have long used laser interferometry to determine the effect of designs and materials. I first became aware of laser interferometry in the early 80s when Celestion introduced a series of speakers designed with the aid of data captured by that laser measurement system.
I am very excited for the scientific process and rigorous peer reviewed research whether it would challenge my cherished beliefs or confirm my cherished beliefs. I want to believe in things that are reliably and demonstrably true and I want to stop believing in things that are demonstrably false. I want the data that can help to correct my beliefs until they align most closely with reality.
Lastly, the saying “you get what you pay for“ is often true but it’s also often used to justify the idea that if you manufacture something to overly extreme standards and out of exotic materials that it will be better. Fine jewelry that is simply ornamental may be well worth it’s very high price tag. Aesthetics and manufacturing quality and precision have value. The question in the audiophile world is whether better sound as claimed is achieved.
It’s more about not losing too much then gaining in quality 😎
Thank you. Great research.
- I have been telling skeptics for years that, as long as we do not know WHY we experience differences, reaching conclusions from comparing measurements is not conclusive. This research is very promising. 👍
Confirmation bias is a thing
@@drdelewded Of course it is. And many skeptics think a blind listening test proves confirmation bias. It doesn’t.
And placebo. There are scientific explanations and experiments to explain some effects of psychoacoustics.
There's no getting around this. And the reason why any subjective evaluations should be conducted under tight controls.
The mere expectation of improved sound quality almost always results in an experience of improved sound quality.
Kind of makes things difficult if you accept that.
@@erics.4113 A blind listening test, most of the time, will demonstrate that, under those conditions, it is difficult to point out the differences.
- However, such a test does not research WHY it is difficult.
- For example. What if the differences are subtle (I think they are) and the act of wanting to do good in the test or wanting to hear a difference (or not wanting to) would generate just enough ‘stress’ for the brain to miss out on the subtleties?
- I am not saying my example is correct, but many skeptics like to think they are correct in their conclusions. And that may be….bias 😉
@Douglas Blake Yes, thank you 👍
I think its super interesting. I can understand how people who don't have very resolving system "can't hear the difference". I believe in the science but at the same time I am also open minded . I can definitely hear difference between some cables (not all though) For those that say the science says there is no difference. I say its very possible that we don't know everything about how to measure everything in audio - the same way we don't know how to measure dark energy in astronomy.
Indeed!
Many years ago I bought a Micromega stage 2 CD player and the dealer gave me a used van den hul d102 (yellow jacket) when I only used freebie interconnects (I think he took pity on me when I told him). I also used it on my GX95 tape deck at the time, never gave it much thought, anyway at some point I forgot I had reconnected the van den hul to the CD player when listening again to cassette and I thought that the sound was "a bit fuzzy now" and I couldn't explain it, I was in the process removing the deck to check it when I suddenly remembered about the audiophile cable I was using, I put it back in and clarity was restored. Because of that experience, I still use van den hul 102 to this day because I 100% I can tell you that freebies interconnects have a haziness/diffuseness to their sound. I can't say about mega bucks interconnects, but I can say 100% don't use freebie interconnects.
Thanks for sharing that
I really notice difference in speaker cable topologies more than interconnects. The professor didn't mention difference from cable metallurgy. I run really rare British made OHNO continuous cast Silver cable in PTFE. Its a pig to run as its so stiff but it suits the characteristics of my Tube based system and Proac floor standers synergistically. I fond a reasonable Quality single ended balanced interconnect affects the sound less once you reach a decent quality, beyond that I find it difficult to detect differences.
Congrats for your choice!
Thank you for the video. Always interesting to discuss cables :) Of course they sound different but the sound you experience might not be the same as other with the same cable. How's that? It is very simple and it doesn't take higher degree to understand, just simple knowledge on electronics. The way it work: Every cable has a capacitance and a resistance, every output and input stage has impedance and capacitances. these are the basic components in low-pass and high-pass filters. Meaning: an output impedance with a series resistance in a cable will act as a low pass filter. and capacitance in cable with impedance in input stage can make a high pass filter. output and input impedance and capacitance are not standardised and you can have high and low pass filter going on at the same time. in your equipment with you're impedances, resistances an capacitances a specific cable will sound different from mine equipment. there is nothing like a "neutral" cable. You can minimise the effect by measuring output and input impedance and capacitance and try to add resistors and capacitors to correct sound. that is in fact recommended when you buy a cartridge, in the specs it says a recommended capacitive load, a few hundred pF and a resistive load, usually 47K (kind of a standard) but don't be surprised to find other loads on older stuff. Some cable become such a mismatch that they sound harsh, to much treble. It's not the cable fault but the combination. balanced cables are different. not depending on the cable but the output stage were we usually drive the sound from a katode follower and/or a transformer to obtain a huge impedance which makes it less sensitive to the resistance in the cable itself and is mostly used were long cables are necessary or electrically noisy environment. Thanks again!
Cables are conductors. Simple conductors (e.g. lamp cord) have very low resistance, and will have very small capacitance and inductance also. These quantities only become significant at radio frequencies. This is basic physics.
The output impedances of amplifiers are not due to the capacitors, since these are bypass capacitors (for bypassing DC voltages in the circuit) and values are chosen which don't affect the AC signal.
Balanced cables (as you said) are for canceling electrical noise when using longer cables (carrying small signals) as well as overcoming resistance in very long cables.
The resistance and capacitance to match cartridge output impedance are for the input stage of the phone pre-amplifiier, not for a cable.
@@allanmoorhead6546 Yes, but not that simple. they are in fact also inductors, capacitors and resistors as well even if the DC-resistans is low. It will largely depend on how an output stage is made. in tube preamplifier we can select a tube with rather high internal resistance as an ecc83 (12ax7) or we can chose a tube with 10 time less resistance, ecc 82 wich will greatly improve the sensitivity to cable, less sensitive, or we make a catode follower of the last stage and improve it even further. Or we would wanna look at an example regarding cartridges since this channel is devoted to analog sound. If we look at the recomended capacitive load for an ortofon 2M red we se that 250pF of load is recomended. it will give ca 3db reduction at the top. A low pass filter. Taking away the small hump at the top and make it more linear and we hear the hi notes a little less harsh. A well known gray shielded cable is specified to give 260pF/meter. If we would use this cable , together with the 250 pF cartridge load, it would cancel out the first 250 pF and will in this situation make the cable soud harsh compared to a cable with less capacitance.
This will have an effect in the range from 17k and up, the -3db level beeing at 20k. Will sound ok with this cable if we take away the cartidge load. BUT if we now connect it to a tube preamplifier with no decoupling capacitor in the first input stage, there are several of them because capacitors in signal path is bad according to some constructors, we will have about 160pF, (12ax7)(very common as first step tube) again a simple low-pass 6 db filter giving us a 3db knee at 15khz. with this particular preamplifier but not with another one. Again showing us that a cable can sound just abaout anything depending on the stuff we hook it up to, - 3 or -6 db of hi freequency or +3db due to Miller effect in the input stage of a tube.
what about the connectors RCAs, you didn't mention this? there could be two types 50 ohms or 75 ohms you can't tell them apart did he know what type of interconnect plug he was using, were all tests using the same RCA plugs?
In the paper are specified the brands and characteristics. They are all different.
I don’t understand the first comparison: high quality balanced, so XLR, which usually requires a higher voltage and a fully balanced path: source and amplifier Vs low cost RCA? This does not yet make sense to me - perhaps you can explain.
I know from experience that different cables sound different.
I agree, strage test. He peobably wanted to compare two completely different things but I think he forgot to remain within the same "species". The second papers seems more grounded.
@@anadialog Thank you for your reply - glad you agree:-)
Bravo....for the info on the cables....the truth well set you free....👏🎵🎶🎵🎶😎
If anyone claimed "cables have no effect" it would be very easy to refute.
So maybe it is convenient to pretend they said so..
But they did not.
In fact what they say is something like "two cables of equal impedance are audio-wise equal regardless of being made of copper or silver or gold"
A good cable is a good cable no doubt..
But is high price a necessity?
What about solid mains cable of very high gauge (which is quite cheap) ..
What is wrong with it?
If anyone found an audible fault in cheap thick copper, (slightest fault) it is so easy and rewarding to demonstrate that with either a measurement or a blind test, that I think they would have done it already.
(if not for selling cables, jewellery industry would welcome "experts" that can "hear" the difference between silver, gold and platinum. Is our money more claimable than theirs?? :) Maybe yes..)
Is there any technological innovation (or magic alloy) that can beat "adding a few more strands of copper" ???
That is a very straightforward question.
Off topic…. Who made your custom lid for you TT?? I am just about to start diving into cables now that my system has been settled…. Meaning I’m happy with all components and speakers. Time to dive into another rabbit hole.
Evolution.it quite good but not stellar!
So, if a cables effect of the signal is actually time delay, could we not simply perform a phase delay measurement on a single speaker with several different cables?
The review of the Ludic Magica speaker cable il be waiting for.
😗
I don't need scientific proof of cables, I just need my ears.
I agree, but a lot of people don't even try to get decent cables so their ears are never going to hear anything
@@anadialog Sadly very true.
I have a nephew that has been involved in the pro audio industry since the 80s. He's also done some mastering work. He has told me on more than one occasion that a lot of people in the pro audio world get a bit of a chuckle out of those who spend large amounts of money on cables because they think they're getting better sound. Also, I've spoken with someone who installs pro audio equipment in broadcast studios and recording studios. He basically carries the same sentiment and pointed out to me that something like (if not literally) a Belden or Canare cable is probably what the studio used when they recorded, mixed, and mastered the audio you're listening to.
Hmmm... but that's not much of a comparison as studios almost exclusively use balanced line and 48v phantom power. Plus, studio equipment is powered by independently spurned mains power runs. Lots of people in a domestic environment have got their amp on the same spurned supply as their fridge or Air Con. Other equipment in the environment have a big impact on audio quality and well screened hi quality cable is often a better option than rewiring the property as it can filter a good proportion of that noise out.
@@janedoe6350 .....and you certainly don't need to spend thousands or even hundreds of dollars to get well-screened, high-quality cables. Let me put it this way: When my nephew needs unbalanced interconnects for his own home system, what brand does he use? General Electric, "GE." Again, the pro audio world already knows these things, but in the consumer market, well, we wouldn't want to leave money on the table, now, would we?
@@batman.darthmaul Pro audio is not high end audio. Talk to high end studio owners/engineers. See if they're buying "GE" cables. It's a simple thing to switch cables and hear a difference, regardless of what your nephew says. The difference can help or it can hurt, and it doesn't take expensive cables to tell the difference. You can hear appreciable differences in cables that are less than $300. And the reality is that if you don't know how to listen and what you're listening for, a coat hanger will sound good.
@@batman.darthmaul I totally agree however, here in Bulgaria "General Electric" cable (due to shipping and import duty) would cost hundreds of dollars and would be considered Hi-End cable in this neck of the woods. Hi-quality is the key here. Not High Cost. I can easily find Turkish or Polish oxygen free copper screened cable that would be equally as good as GE for a fraction of the cost. I think the thing to remember when looking for cables is... look at the specification for your situation and don't believe the hype.
You can't laugh at people who hear differences! Are we imagining it? F*** no! Just like some folk can't hear the difference between CDs and sacds! But just because there's people that can't hear it, doesn't mean it's not there! That's arrogant, if you ask me! ANYTHING high quality, is going to have an affect!
This is a hobby, a passion to many people, I understand that. But, don't forget to enjoy the music! If you keep fiddling with this kind of stuff listening becomes such an academic experience. Enjoy the music! That was the purpose of the artist. Of course; some criticism is good but don't get hung up on things that need so much explanation and debate: it spoils the fun the music can bring you. And besides: when you heard the live performance nothinwill beat that. So next time when you want to invest in your music listening buy a concert ticket instead of equipment ; )
Epistemologically, assuming that a phenomena ISN'T observable (without any empirical proof that it isn't) is just as biased as assuming that a phenomena IS observable. Possibly more biased. I'm going to enjoy the emerging science conducted in this area.
Let's agree to disagree...
If you have ears that can hear the difference, then by all means spend spend spend.
Me, I am one of the lucky ones with only normal hearing abilities. 🤔
Are you? To my (and many people I know), the vast majority of people DO hear the difference. So you would be one of the lucky few that don't, and can therefore save money. Still, you're basically suggesting that what you perceive is 'normal'. But is it? Even my mom and her boyfriend (both 76) heard a difference. And I wasn't even asking them about it...
@@erwindewit4073 - LOL
@@frankenstudio22 Which is a profoundly weird experience! Her boyfriend 'had never heard anything like that before'. Perhaps it had to do with the tiny bluetooth speaker he calls a home audio system 😂
Hello 🙂 you should collaborate with ,,Passion for sound,, on this topic. I definitely am a believer cause I hear the difference, also within usb cables.
When I look at the vintage quality hi-fi equipment, none of them came with high-end cables at the back. But with a standard cheap RCA cables, where one ends in plastic red and other in plastic white. In my opinion, problem is at the end, how contacts are made. I had some cheap chinese cables, which were horrible and I also have some german made cables for 30 eur, where soldering is quality made and sound is excellent.
I think that university should kick him out with his PhD , because he didn't understand that balanced connector vs single end is 3dB different.
He compares Appel with Orange!!
Woot Woot Woot New Video!
what about DIN cables? Are they better than RCAs, having one common ground?
Interesting topic! For people who are accustomed to mass production equipment, hi end audio sounds as a fake thing. I am not going to talk about hi end. I would say though the following: yes, different equipment sound differently, cables including. And one principle applies: diminishing returns. And measurements, of any kind, do not tell the "truth". Why? Because any pair of ears is unique! What is good for me maybe is not listenable by you, there is "objective" review.
Dear Guido, reading the old but still manteined website of our beloved Renato Giussani a article called "Mito e realtà dei cavi di collegamento nei sistemi Hi-Fi", were you can download a simple model of calculation were if you have the specifics of your amplifier, your cables and your loudspeakers it calculates the effects of changing cables on your Hi-Fi system, (only about connections to loudspeakers that was his first interest) this is a easy and powerful meter to understand if it's good to you to spend your money on cables and verify the real effects between your choice in your system, naturally you have to know all the key data to fill the right cells properly, what makes me upset is the fact that in this "esotheric and simil religious" area of the Hi-Fi world everybody wants to speak and tell his "true" without take the time to try to use it and see with his eyes the reality, so have good fortune to try this you're doing Guido!
True! Thanks for sharing that!
Not just the type of cable but, the route it takes, there length, how far they are from power cables, if they have any loops or if they are coiled in any way. Remember, both left and right speaker cables need to be the same length and if your amp is not central between the speakers and you have coiled the slack incorrectly, you will be introducing a low pass filter to one channel.
Good point
Silver definitely sounds different. Im not sure it is better but it definitely is different.
Next comparsion: 5$ cables vs Bluetooth 5.0 connection.
Option 1. It’s a good idea they make a difference and can be tailored to adjust performance and tone of a system. Then why don’t manufacturers supply best case fitting power cables removing the need for aftermarket pc’s. Speaker and interconnect cables are another matter. Option 2. It’s not a great idea they make a difference because that suggests there’s some issues in the product.
Moving on to the paper…read / listen on.
I am the last person who would throw money in cables if couldn't appreciate an improvement (not just a difference). But buy using your ears and common sense. If you are happy with telephone cable, use it!
So what performance gains are we talking about? 1% better sound? 15% better sound? I'm guessing closer to 1% if that..... I would convince myself they sound better too if i just dropped $2000 on cables, otherwise that makes me a sucker.
I have loved 2 channel audio since I was a teenager. Never have I seen rational people get so wound up about something as simple as a cable. Loved the scientific video, but at the end of the day. We can all do something much more simple. Go to a shop. Ask them to swap out some cables. If you can hear a difference that you like, buy it. If not, walk away. 😀
Yes. I also met people who don't hear the difference, even if all the others think it's obvious. So perhaps their ears aren't as perceptive to timing differences? (if that really is what it is?).
That's simple but it obviously introduces the issues of bias and/or placebo. The Audiophile community includes some of the biggest psychology deniers in the world but these effects are very well established.
Sure, one can think it has worth even if he gets a placebo effect out of it, but anyone with the slightest scientific tendency in their mind would prefer to know the truth, so therefor proper research has to be done, and go through peer review.
@@storkfletcher821 thank you very much for your reply. I haven't a clue what you just wrote, because I don't take any of this audiophile thing too seriously. Just gives me a headache. So I will just agree with you, as I can deduce that your brain is the size of huge watermelon. (That's a complement).
@@storkfletcher821 Yep. But still, try cables for 2 days, switch, 2 days, etc. Odds are, after say 2 weeks, placebo effect had pretty much been eliminated. But of course, good science is really the only way forward..
🤗👍THANKS GUIDO…FOR SHARING THIS…IMHHO..IT WILL HELP SOME NEW ONES AND MIGHT HELP OTHERS BUT…there are some people that might think 🤔 “DON’T CONFUSE ME WITH THE FACTS…MY MIND IS ALREADY MADE UP 🤷♂️😍😍😍
😉
These papers from Dr. Kunchur have been been discussed in electronic engineering circles and shown to contain many audio engineering inaccuracies as well lacking rigor in the methology and design of the experiments. Dr. Kunchur is an astrophysicist and not an EE. For a more informed point of view from a real experieced EE, watch this video: "Scientific Proof of Measurable Difference in Audio Cables? Paper Review" ua-cam.com/video/a0p3D_Gv6IY/v-deo.html.
If only you took a minute to read my video description you would know that I have already acknowledged AudioScienceReview's video. I posed the paper as an interesting point of view from a university professor in a peer-reviewed journal. The premise was quite intriguing but I did signal my lack of knowledge of such difficult data.
Apart from prof Kunchur, I would also start doubting about these so-called scientific peer-reviewed journals. Who is accepting this stuff? That is the true scandal here IMO. I am scientist in another field and I never ever saw something like that.
@@anadialog I posted my comment a handful of hours after the ASR video came out on August 26th. I don't think you had posted your Contra link on your video description by then but I could be wrong. I did however read your video description when I initially watched your video on the 29th of July or a couple of days thereafter because I went on to check if the two papers from Dr. Kunchur you referenced were the ones I already had on my computer or new ones.
Most people don't bother reading the video descriptions so I figure that my link to the ASR video can be useful for those that only read comments. I don't always read the video descriptions myself but I very often do, specially when I want to view the sources.
Amir from ASR mentioned in his video that when the papers were publised on the Journal of the AES, that he contacted them and raised some concerns about various technical issues on those papers. One thing is for sure, I do agree with you that more scientific studies have to be performed in this area with a more diligent peer review process.
Dr. Kunchur is NOT an astrophysicist.
Gerard Stroh***
Anadialog About Cables!!!
1. Balance Cables OCC Copper is Better than OFC Copper!!!!
2. Speaker Wire Must Be at Least 12 Gauge or Heavier!!!
3. I think All Audio Gear Should Have Balance inputs and Outputs!!!
4. Hardly Ever Use unbalance Cables of any kind!!
5. I only Use Pro-Audio Poweramps only!!!!
6. I Do use A Denon AVR-X3600H Home Theater Reciever and Maybe I Will Get A AVR Home theater With Balance Inputs and Outputs!!!!
7. Some Cables Are Snake Oil But Not All****
8. Some Cables Do Matter on Very High Gain Like on A Turntable and A Microphone if You Use Long Cable Runs****
That's My Take On Audio Cables By Gerard Stroh****
I pick "G", my #10 copper lamp cord! 😁
The thing is…I enjoy my system every time that I listen. 👍🏼
….I think that I will buy a new set of Sylvania, Tall, 2-hole "Bad Boyz" for my preamp today! 🙊🙈🙉
Speed of electricity signals is around 200.000.000 m/s. Speed of sound is 330 m/s. There are no audible time issues relating to copper cables. Neither in interconnect cables, nor in speaker cables. Period.
What I like : Period . ……..finito ,…end of conversation ,….I am the best ! I am right , everybody else in the world is wrong ! I
nobody is telling that there's no impact on cables and connections on what is the final quality of what you can hear. Sound is a wave going thru a body, so the body can concur to lose or not some info from this wave. It's well known, But there's also other factors that can have an impact: for example humidity, temperature and not least yuor health in terms of what you can perceive in your ears.
Nobody? There are tons that believe so, buddy.
Perhaps people who have not had their hearing tested, do not have a quality revealing audio system and have not had the experience of comparing many audio cables should moderate their criticism. If you dont see the value in cables and dont want to spend the money, don't. I personally couldn't care less if hard headed biased audiophiles do not enjoy their systems to their fullest because of their prejudice against cables. It's an irrelevancy to the rest of us.
Or the reverse. That hard headed biased people spend lots of money on equipment ignoring cables because they don't believe it would make a difference.
And clearly it IS relevant, as you're responding to the video. And endless videos have been made and are made every day talking about cable snake oil, audiofools etc. That's quite the opposite of irrelevant.
However, if you don't want to spend the money on cables and put more into equipment to make up for it, be my guest. But perhaps you should just give it a try. Who knows what you might find (or not). Cables are a lot cheaper than better equipment. Or try room treatment, but that's a different topic..
@Douglas Blake well said.
Fletcher Munson: If people want to spend extra money on cables, to me It's perfectly irrelevant.
If someone thinks buying fancy cables (almost always more expensive) makes things sound better, I couldn't care less, it's their money not mine.
@@garyluciani1082 If that were true, you wouldn't be writing this.. Clearly you care..
_Audio Cables: Scientific proof of impact on sound_
A-ha! I knew it! Let's see now how foolish my ex-wife will feel for serving me divorce papers after finding out about those -few- several multiple figures purchases! ( o.o)
Cables does not make any difference in sound quality ?
Check out Greg Weaver the "Audio Analyst" channel Episode 25. Silversmith Audio cables are designed using wave propagation theory, not traditional electrical properties like resistance and capacitance which make little difference. I have Silversmiths's speaker cables, the best ever.
I also have their cable and totally agree with you.😄
Nice!
Well, my ears tell me that there are differences, measurements in hi-fi aren't everything. Something can measure well but sound worse than something that measures less well. Forget trying to explain it just go with your ears. If you can't tell the difference then fantastic save your money and buy more music; if you can hear a difference then spend what it needs to make you happy.
The secret of bores : they say everything
Main reason audio cables make differece is today lack of any standards in those signal transmission lines, components have different out or input impedances, which are direcly copupled with cables of unknown impedances and so on.
Long time ago there were standards taken from telecomunication field, like 600 ohm impedance for audio lines.
Todays hifi or high end is derivation od low quality consumer audio heritage, not so from broadcast in terms of standards. Look just that RCA connectors🤦, they are standard, but in essence they are bullshit.
I agree with author of those papers. We hear difference in signal reflections, and non linear time domain behavior of cables, which change signal spectral composition(timbre and timing) which totaly change listening impresion.
XLR - great of course - shielding is key . Low oxygen Copper.. amazing. Of course they can have an affect.. variables !
No science necessary, if I can hear difference between cheap cables and expensive cables, that’s all the science I need. I use twisted pair 16awg ofc and have zero complaints. There was a time when I was curious but I quickly saw beyond the bullshit.
Fancy cables remain by and large in economic terms snake oil,instead of spending $10,000 on a cable spend it on a DAC etc,this will add more improvement than the tiny subtle effects of a fancy cable...
I guess you haven't seen ASR's expensive DAC reviews as of late. Save your money or spend it on an investment, your kids or the mortgage.
@@tweedeldee8122 actually I follow them all the time,they have saved me a fortune,Chord dacs are overrated and flawed,wouldnt touch one.
@@edwardbit8225 Great! Then why suggest spending 10k on a DAC?
@@tweedeldee8122 why not? just an example,better than a cable,lol..in fact 10k on beer would be better than a cable...
@@edwardbit8225 Because it's just a snake oily as a 10k cable. But to each their own. I'm down on the beer. lol Cheers!
Spark plug wire makes excellent sound cable.