Cable measurement is not science. Why no double-blind cable test?
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- Опубліковано 25 кві 2021
- #audiophile #hifi #stereo #cables
Please note the photo showing the inside of the network was a speaker cable and not the cables shown in the thumbnail or at the beginning of the video. Note: I might have stated the incorrect value of the resistor.
The system used in HIFI Cable sound demo
Link to sound demo: • Sound demo comparing A...
Link to Jay's cable blind test video: • Hi-fi BLIND A/B test -...
Silverline Sonata Speakers
Exasound E28 DAC
1st sound demo
Mcintosh MAC6700 AMP
2nd sound demo
Devialet 200 AMP
Expensive cables $6k+ (System B)
Audioquest coffee USB
Siltech ST28 interconnects
Siltech 550L
Siltech Crown Prince Power cable
Cheap cables (System A)
$1 USB cable
Blue Jean interconnect (2nd sound demo)
Van del Hul the second (1st sound demo)
Amazon speaker cables
Making your system sound different is easy, "better" is where the waters get muddy.
Better is totally individual so i don’t know why there’s a debate at all.
,,Better,, than what? What are the criteria? Very difficult questions to asnwer
@@khoi83 To you this thing sound better than something else you tried.
@@brainache555 define ,, better,, then
@@brainache555 Couldn't have said it better myself. 👍
"Why no double-blind cable test?" Because some audiophiles get hurt , they want to live in a dreamworld.
I started reading the comments and instantly hit the tired old “If you can’t hear a difference, then you’re too poor...’ comment which Thomas already blew a hole through: that you could have a colored system (expensive or no) and it could be extremely hard to tell any difference. Similarly, how many of us have played our systems proudly for non-audiophiles, convinced that it was going to change their lives and all you get was a “Yeah, it sounds OK, I guess. My Bose Wave radio sounds good, too”.
😳😆
@Sean MacDonald yea funny enough same applies to my aunt 😄
I think that the only person you need to please and impress with your sound system is yourself. Who cares what other people think or say?
A Bose Wave "is" my sound system, too. It ROCKS!...and....No cables to worry about! 👻
2 things:
1.) A $12 Belkin Gold cable from sounds significantly better than a generic OEM/Office Depot cable off the shelf for about the same price. No, it’s not because the USB plugs are gold plated (gold isn’t a great conductor, but it doesn’t rust easily), it’s because of the stuff inside. So, you don’t have to be rich enough.
2. I’m an absolute novice when it comes to wine tasting. Sure, I’ve heard of the terms “Dry” or “nutty,” but I don’t know what a “dry” liquid tastes like, and even though I’m 34 I can’t say I’ve had a wine that reminds me of cashews or walnuts. With headphones, Ten years ago, I could hear stuff like “more bass” or “muffled” because I had plenty of life experience about such things, but I had no idea what “digital hash,” “modal distortion,” or even what a 1 kHz tone was. Yep, there is surely placebo where you think you’ll hear something because someone said you should, but a trained ear is also better at separating the wheat from the chaff. 🌾
When it comes to cables, I was a non-believer, shorter or more ergonomic was ok, and someone else can buy a pretty cable but it wasn’t for me. I even had a company proudly let me compare their cable vs stock, and tell me it should be obvious the difference, but I just could not. That all changed for me when a friend brought a $650 cable over for my HD 800. I was utterly shocked how much clearer and fuller everything was... the HD 800 wasn’t experiencing a frequency shift, it just sounded like I was hearing _more,_ and the change in transparency and clarity was bigger and more noticeable than many DAC changes. They were ready to help me do blind A/B comparisons, but the first time going from stock to the 3rd party cable was not subtle and, for me, well outside the realm of placebo.
I can understand not wanting clearer headphones though. “Demons” by Imagine Dragons has AWFUL drums, super distorted and digitally mangled no matter if it’s from a DSD file or a Spotify Stream. But you can’t tell as easily on a Bose wave radio, and two days ago when I heard it at the grocery store the ceiling speakers couldn’t make the drums be audible at all. My mom also prefers the softness of a blurry distorted Bose wave radio, because she just likes a little relaxing melody while eating dinner or teaching yoga... she prefers instrumental music, so it’s actually better for her if lyrics are unintelligible. There’s all kinds of audiophiles out there, and I won’t say someone else is wrong for seeking a certain kind of signature.
My goodness you’re a brave man to take on not just cables but the measurement arguments. I think you nailed it. Sensible, intelligent and informed. Bravo.
It’s with videos like this that you earn respect and credibility. You and The British Audiophile are my 2 favourite channels channels.
@Jingle Nuts Oh, Gene and his massive measurement rig are being sued by Synergetic Research because of the snake oil accusations against the company. This has became an epic dispute with. True story! You can follow it in a FB group called Real Audiophiles
@@TombstoneTube
DellaSella does a great dis-service to the hobby both 2 channel audio or high end home theatre. Gene is no benefactor to the industry except make nothing but accusations. Good on Denney to go after that guy. Dellasella did this to himself.
@Jingle Nuts
Hates cables but reviews 9k pre/pros and comes out with a conclusion "gotta have it". He is no benefactor to the industry/hobby.
@Jingle Nuts not the same gene who thinks 'false economy' cables are same as expensive cables! Lol
Playboy is my favorite channel, though I admit those ladies are fairly bashful. And all funny cat videos are great too.
6k cables? imagine what a solid set up you can have with that
6K cables are for people who have near 100 thousand dollar systems!
Yeah agree. $6k in room treatments would make a def noticeable improvement, more so than any cable could do.
@@boostedmaniac there you go
$6k cables is when your power amp/s and speakers are at least $20k each
There is a lot more that 6k will offer somewhere else in the audio chain
If you have difficulty figuring out if a product improves the sound, save your money. Use it to buy products that make a big difference. For the ultra high end and people with money to burn, small differences may be all you can get.
Completely agree. That is why I tell people don't bother with cables until the very end. You get way more return spending money elsewhere.
@@ThomasAndStereo The other thing about that Thomas, the more resolving your system is, the easier it is to hear a difference.
that’s what I thought when I spend over 1K on power cord. I know the actual material cost is probably like 20 bucks but I just can’t deny the change in sound quality.
@Jingle Nuts to me 1K is a lot. I invest most of my savings on crypto so hopefully I can afford a legit system after the current bull run.
@@buttonman1831 Precisely, if you have a mediocre system, putting high end cables/interconnects in the mix will not yield any "substantial" improvements.
Thomas. This video was awesome! Probably the best explanation and most well thought out video I’ve seen on this subject
Thanks!! I gave it a lot of thoughts before making the video because I know it is a very sensitive subject.
Yes it was a great video and just to state my my opinion The only people who think cables don't matter are people who either can't afford it or have never heard it. Some guy showing you a measurement doesn't tell you anything about anything :-)
@@redleather420 I disagree, measurements are reliable but only show PARTS of the picture, but not the whole picture.
@@khoi83 they show you if something is broken or not that's it. ASR just measured a cable and said look it didn't change the frequency response or distortion therefore all cables are fake snake oil. I mean you would think these science people would be the intelligent ones but they do science worse than a second grader.
@@redleather420 ASR is not science, its a pseudo religion
This is THE best commentary on cables I have ever seen, read or watched! Very good!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Note: I might have stated the incorrect value of the resistor. Please keep comments respectful and intelligent. This is not a video on the value of cables nor about do cables sound different so let us stay focus. Please note the photo showing the inside of the network was a speaker cable and not the cables shown in the thumbnail or at the beginning of the video.
Link to sound demo: ua-cam.com/video/iyDsbh_I7xs/v-deo.html
Link to Jay's cable blind test video: ua-cam.com/video/HJGw8zwx-6g/v-deo.html
Coke tastes better in a glass bottle? For fun : www.southernliving.com/drinks/glass-soda-bottles-taste#:~:text=Glass%20is%20a%20more%20inert,the%20purest%20Coca%2DCola%20flavor.
please do me a favour and try a nordost frey 2 power cord on your amp and your player!...listen to it one hour...than go back to a realy cheap power cord. if you realy dont hear any difference...you were the first one🤣👍
you can skip your power cleaner if you want!
Thomas, start a crowd funding to hire the appropriate group ( ie: Nasa ;) for a proper double bling test. You could organize this with other audiophile UA-camrs to get audience to participate, suggest cables... Possibly involve some measurement folks (ie: audioholics, audio science review...) This would be very entertaining for sure.
This is the best take so far. Bravo!
I'd also like to throw in that the scientific method serves to minimize cognitive biases.
In Alcoholics Anonymous the first step is acknowledging you have a problem
In Audio testing the first step is acknowledging you have a bias
One of the most compelling and comprehensive explanations. I think it just comes down to common sense.
"for those of you who dont believe in foreplay, and just want to jump into the action..." Thomas has good sense of humor, lol.
I wonder if he was speaking from experience?
Strange fact: I only started to think about cable replacements when I was fully content with my system.
Is there something wrong with you? The whole point about audio is to never be fully content with your system! 👻
Lucky are those among us with such carefree lives that it takes a cable to cause upset.
True
Thats why there will never be world peace
well, u know there are people out there that if they were condemned to die, standing @th gallows in front of th hangman, would start an argument over which type of rope was best!😅 I'm afraid that type of personality is plentiful in th audiophile community
@@tothemax324 True
@@gizzy2403 lol touché!!That would be a polyhemp blend rope of course.😁
Great video, I really don't know why some people get so angry regardless of which side of the fence they sit on. If you think that expensive cables make a difference then buy them, if you don't, then buy cheap ones. Either way, be happy and respect other people's views and most importantly, enjoy the music!
people get angry because companies are selling 12,000 $ a/c power cords to gullable people. those of us that have comon sense know its wrong and are trying to educate these people.
@@gasandbatteries9833 I can understand the motivation, it is like wanting to stop someone from getting robbed. But what if it is a reasonable price?
@@gasandbatteries9833 why the anger though?for some people who have that kind of money to spend, it would probably equate getting an Armani suit and putting on a cheap Old Navy belt instead of a Gucci one.🤷🏻♂️
@@ThomasAndStereo Hi Thomas, congratulations on presenting this hi-fi edu! Excellent from start to finish. Okay, so what is a reasonable price for an I.C., power cord, coax, etc? From my experiences and my budget, $300 is the absolute max and closer to $200 is what I prefer to max out at most of the time.
Now on a related topic, I have also discovered pleasing results using Toslink/Optical cable and it's much, much, more affordable than coax or I.C's. If I find the optical cable to my liking and affordable then the $ saved with the optical allows me to consider a tad more refined power cord or speaker wire. Anyway, do you A/B any optical-vs- coax or optical-vs- I.C.? Thank you Thomas.
@@nycbass78 well there is more to it than just that. cables are a con job. false advertising. no proof. no blind tests. alot like the junk sold on infomercials. alot like churches on tv that steal money from sheeple. hate to see it happen and things are getting done about it. Amir from audio science reveiw is one of the people doing something about it.
Congratulations Thomas, this is the most concise, most relevant video on the nature of double-blind tests for audiophiles! I am adding it to my playlist of recommended videos for audiophile education. :)
I was actually surprised to be able to hear a difference between two sets of speaker cables, something I never thought possible.
And you with most certainty didn't hear it this time either. James Randy has 10 000 dollars waiting for you if you pass a double blind test and hear a difference between two cables. Go grab it...
I respectfully submit to you that an accurate blind test is not expensive to conduct. One does not need to live with a cable for months to notice a difference. All that is needed for an accurate blind test are the following:
1) A space, doesn't even have to be sound treated
2) A panel of volunteer test subjects
3) HiFi audio equipments
4) The cables to be blind tested.
You forgot the beer. 😁 I am sure it can be done with a budget but it depends on what you set as conditions.
This is precisely why the Molingordo/Matrix Hifi tests done in Spain a few years ago are so interesting. They were done in a very amiable, controlled setting, by audiophiles themselves with no agenda whatsoever and with exquisite etiquette. The results are there for anyone to explore.
@@robertocalvo934 I saw it and I would have changed certain things because I have an issue with some of their criteria. For example, they asked people to choose the 'best' system, well best is different for different people so are they testing the system or are they testing people's taste? I can go on and on but you get my point.
@@ThomasAndStereo I think your are mistaken. At least in the first meetings the ABx test was : can you tell apart one system(10.000 euros) from another (700 euros). They weren't asking subjective questions but rather can you tell me which one is A and B, which they couldn't (it seems that when you match sounds levels things get knotty )
@@robertocalvo934 Well at the bottom, it is written at the bottom of the page "Well, to avoid being subject of such arguments, we have gone from the usual DBT questioning "wich is the one"? to "wich one you like best"? This should eliminate the pressure that so often is called upon to demerit the use of DBT's, furthermore, on this occasion there were not preagreed a max listening time, and each listener/tester could use the music of his choice."
Quickly becoming the best Audio Review UA-cam Channels available. Keep up the great common sense videos!
Audio is a hardware journey where the destination is the same, but people spend so much time arguing about the journey. What does it matter if people are spending too much as long as they enjoyed their journey - same destination
True, what other people do is their own business. Just enjoy the music.
Some people are so worried about how their gear is set up that they don't listen/enjoy the music.
Don't listen to your gear folks, listen to and enjoy the music!
I think the issue comes about when the people who hear the difference try to put down those who can't, or can't afford to buy better gear, which is where the measurement people try to intervene, try to be saviours and say its ok to have cheap cables because more expensive ones aren't better in any terms (at least as long as they measure about the same or within a certain threshold). I think many modern reviewers try to act as peaceful moderators, and tell the people who can't afford expensive cables, that its not that big of an issue.
Thomas... EXACTLY. YOU SAID IT PERFECTLY. And yet, many will still not get it.
GREAT VIDEO THOMAS! I really like your presentation and argumentation. I am a physicist (with specialities in solid state and acoustics) - and we are very used to the idea that 1) we don't know everything and 2) if the observations don't match the measurements, then *it's clear that the model we are using is inadequate* That is the history of physics!
Cables may measure identically with the limited measurements we make but obviously *something we don't yet know about* is making the difference we experience. I really liked your hamburger analogy.
And I don't agree with the people (eg. Amir "science=measurements" Audio Science Review) who perpetuate the falsehood "no measurement difference on this 1kHz sinewave or frequency sweep means no difference in sound". I know psychoacousitics is also a factor, and also here we also don't know very much.
Personally I do think that there are significant effects independent of my brain's processing that are causing audible differences (remember when we switched to Teflon dielectrics?!) which have to do with electron flow, crystal boundaries, skin effect, relative phase of different frequencies, dielectric behaviour, and more as well as inductance, resistance and capacitance. Thank you for making this video and your quiet reasoning was very enjoyable. All the best, Rob in Switzerland
Here is my largest concern with this debate... I have a decent and transparent system... yet every time I sit down and listen it never sounds exactly the same, even though I am using the exact same equipment, listening position, and music. Some days I am so impressed with the sound, other times I don't like what I'm hearing.
So for me it becomes hard for me to fully trust my own ears. I need to listen for many sessions and assess over a period of time... which makes judging minor differences from cables just that much more unreliable.
Amir, as a audiophile for almost 50 years I've experienced similar phenomenon with my modest yet transparent system. I've come to the conclusion that there are many other variables which can influence all of this. For example, voltage fluctuation and noise in the AC Mains, room temperature, relative humidity, (important for speakers,) warm-up of the equipment, break-in routine, night or day, listening with eyes shut or eyes open, (don't laugh there's a perception acuity issue here which exists,) etc. I suspect that if you can minimize these variables that you too would begin to also hear minor differences in cables. I belong to the camp that cables do indeed perform and sound different just like all other "components" in your system. Basic electrical measurements are very helpful indicators IMHO (LCR) regarding what to possibly expect however at the end of the day it all comes down to achieving synergy with your other components even in support of any individual listening preferences. For what's it worth, my financial investment in cables translates to ~ 7-8% of the $ value of my entire system when it was originally purchased. Significant but not ridiculous.
@@oldschoolaudioenthusiast I changed my powerchords and powerstrip and minimised this fluctuation nearly to zero. Cheers
Your own mood is a factor that most people don't consider.
Amir - trust your ears, I've been at this for 40 years and the same goes with my different systems. Read Alan's comment below (or above) - therein lies the answers to the nightly sound fluctuations. Cheers!
You probably should consider to try a good AC mains filter/regenerator. That may reduce fluctuations.
A very good contribution to the cable discussion. Based in science and being respectful of either position. Thank you.
Thank you for making this video :D it's what's needed in this community.
Great video man!
If you apart from the scientific method add a couple of university points in psychology regarding cognitive biases, projection and placebo effects you will come to understand much about high-end audio. Someone who's just dropped 5k on a cable is very inclined to hear some kind of change which they then will want to interpret as "better".
I would not disagree with you there that what you said is possibly true, we just need to do the double blind test to confirm first. Then we come up with possible different reasons why that is true. Is it placebo? Or is it true there is a difference.
Don't underestimate the power of suggestion
Super video, well done and well put.
Thanks again for this video addressing tricky issue.
There is something that also can make a difference in cables difference audition : the room. I experienced myself two different rooms when I changed home. The first one was acoustically very poor, high reflexion, hard floor.. and cables change was spectacular. Now I am in a better room and some changes are more difficult to assess. I am testing 5 different speakers cable and it is not easy to discriminate even if some differences are audible.
For me, if it takes a lot of energy to hear the difference, there is no difference.
I have to give it you Thomas, nobody ever mentions the scientific method when talking about measurements and science. I also studied science in University and applaud this video. Excellent video!
I talk about it all the time. I was starting to think I was crazy, because you're right. No one ever mentions it. And out of nowhere, Thomas comes and saves the day.
I liked the Glas Bottle, can analogie the Most, because it comes to show what minor differences can determine if the human prefers one thing over the other, although at first the determining factor wouldn’t come to mind. Cheers.
One of your best Video’s Thomas !
I love your video generally and this one in particular
Having 30 years of being an audiofile and hearing many cables, id say having a highend system makes a difference in cable sound.
Great video on a sensitive and complex subject. You kept my attention to the end - which speaks volumes. Well expressed Thomas and clearly the distillation of much deep thought. ;¬) Thanks and greetings to you and yours.
For those who think cables make no difference, they must never have witnessed a dog running from the room.
Every single piece of reference audio gear ever built to this day is tuned by the ears of its creator in its final stages of r&d before they go off to production , cables , speakers , source components, amps , room, treatment , etc
In the professional audio / studio environnements , the benefits of high performance cables / internal wiring , got settled about 25 years ago ,
Yup, well you are an expert at this.
Finally someone who thinks logically. Personally, I don’t use expensive cables because, at my budget, I think the money is better spent elsewhere. However, I always wonder how so many people can say they hear a difference in cables and other people absolutely dismiss those people’s opinions. The amount of distrust baffles me. I am yet to do a blind test on myself, and for that reason, I have no basis for a valid argument. One day I’d like to go to a high end shop and try out some cables for myself, but even then I’m not sure I could call the results accurate. I’d have to bring them home and listen long term like you mentioned.
Anyway, I always appreciate the approach you have on these topics. You clearly lay out your beliefs and give reasons for them. Even though I am almost completely a DIY guy, you are my favorite reviewer because of your way of thinking.
If you place a resister in the signal path, of course it will make a difference in the sound. The amplifier will have to produce more voltage to overcome the resistance.
Was it in parallel, like just along side, what would that do?
Best arguments I heard about measurements and the cable debate.
I have a method for upgrading cables. My dealer recommends several used cables from his stock, without him telling me the prices, I bring them home and test them with my system for several days until I decide which one I like the best. When I tell him my decision frequently it was neither the cheapest or the most expensive one that I picked.
hi Thomas, one of your BEST videos so far - keep it coming please - I loved it (irrespective if I "believe" or not)
Perhaps your most compelling video. Very well articulated. Bravo! IMO, audiophiles would be well served to listen with an open mind and to keep their minds open. FWIW, I’m confident that I’ve heard cable differences, but not in every instance.
I eat Butter Chicken with basmati rice while watching this! No need for a good wine or beer! Thanks Thomas!
Another great video Thomas, thanks
Very welcome
This is perfectly stated, cables absolutely matter but it takes time and experience to listen and learn. My best advise to those starting out in this hobby is to buy used, research and read all you can.
Great tip!
Awesome vid I'm a cable believer Thomas thxxx
I think there are multiple problems around the subject of cables. For me the biggest is knowing that there are great profits to be had, which makes me very suspicious.
Another one is the lack of measurements or other proof by the manufactor: if you claim your cable has better inductance/resistance or shielding you should be able to proof them.
Lastly at least for me I think the placebo effect to be one of tge most underrated phenomena in Hifi. For examppe, I was listening to a headphone and than went and EQed it to be more neutral. After EQ it was the best it ever sounded....until I realized my dac drivers circumvent the eq software. I felt stupid and the headphone went back to being not that great.
So I suspect people perceiv differences, be it placebo or real, but for me I doubt the difference to be meaningful enough that it would change my experience of my system, but i might be wrong.
Thanks for the video.
Thank you for your information about anything in this video....nice info
Just for fun.😉
1 dollar resistor on a cable hmmmm. On the bright side Great video Thomas
Great video. Thanks for your input.
My pleasure!
Thank you for the info great work Thomas... I always trust my ear and happy with my vintage system... 👍👍👍
I myself have 5 pairs of different High-end speaker cables. I switch cables every now and then. Sometimes I hear a difference, but to what extent do I hear a difference. That cannot be explained. It is about hearing and how well you can listen at that moment, concentrated listening is never the same. Because we often feel different. That is the biggest link in High-end.
✌😉👌👍
If cables made a differences that you can hear, you should hear the difference ALL the time, not sometimes.
If you can only hear the difference sometimes, then the difference is YOU
@@crazyprayingmantis5596
That's true.
😂. THOMAS.... YOU BLINDED US WITH SCIENCE 😂. I LOVED IT🤗
THANKS FOR OPENING OUR EYES👀. And maybe a few minds 🤔 enlightening NEW ONES 😉😍😍😍
Maybe your best vid yet.
Well done.
Hey Thomas. Great video.
I totally agree that you shouldn't ask someone let alone a youtuber to do a blind AB test or a double blind.
Not because they are not qualified like you said but because of the "cost" - some are, just like me from a background of doing such tests
and it is not hard to learn about a true double blind test if one is serious about learning about it (especially in the modern day of information, it is no unicorn)
But the cost and complication that goes into it is something that people often do not consider.
Yes, that is wrong of me to say that all UA-camrs are not qualified. Anyone who understands the scientific method and understands what are the possible factors that can influence the outcome of a test is qualified.
Not until they go to an audiologist and have their hearing checked. Like the guy who ran the ls3/5a shootout at ls35a.com did. He gets an A++ for honesty.
@@bruce8429 ua-cam.com/video/rLvpVMeORns/v-deo.html
We certainly did
OMG, there's a turntable on the shelf.....🤣
lol
Thomas will probably have grey hair very soon, too... haha
Best video about cables I've watched thus far! 👌
Glad you enjoyed it!
@@ThomasAndStereo Do you think cable manufacturers know why cables make a difference? Or are they keeping that information to themselves? Logic dictates that they should know but of course there are exceptions...what do you think Thomas?
I agree Thomas. Best to keep an open mind on the subject and leave it at that.
Sometimes you can open your mind so much that your brain falls out.
@@crazyprayingmantis5596Has not been my experience. How about you ???
I have been doing this a good 50 years now. The last 30 in a dedicated room with some pretty nice gear that has only gotten better and better. In all that time I have never once felt the need to double-blind anything. If I hear no difference I hear no difference and away it goes, whatever it is. If I do hear a difference and it is better then and only then does it stay. Been doing this with an incredible long list of things, many of which will have eyes rolling big time. But here is the thing. Often times when people come over I will change something, and my favorite is to do it while they are listening. Take the cable elevators off and lay them on the floor. Put something under a component so the spring isolation no longer works. Turn the Active Shielding off, or remove or change a tuning bullet. All kinds of different things like that. And you know what? Every single time they hear it. Every single time! This has been going on for so long now, it hasn't been since the freaking 1990's there was any doubt. Maybe some day these laggards will catch up with where real audiophiles were 30 years ago. All they really have to do is go and listen. They will see. There should no longer be any doubt. All the same, thanks for patiently explaining.
I do the same thing. My favorite was when I tried a new set of interconnects. My wife came in from another room to ask "What's wrong with the stereo?" Those cables went back.
@@charlesgrubbs2101 I use the same indicator. Except my review reading must be better, because mine more often than not hears the improvement without even coming into the room.
I have. a degree in physics, worked in academia for a while. I think that it's only folk who haven't worked in science who act religious about measurements. I use statistics every day in my job. When I come home i enjoy listening to my musical, distorted tube amp with big horn speakers - because they sound great.
I might modify that; engineers rather than scientists I have found most unpersuadable on cables. The actual scientists generally take the scientific approach whereas engineers rely on 'established' dogma.
@@turiddu9 Engineers are generally very practical people and also reliant on their equipment and calculations. If the machine tells them that the resistance and capacitance of the wire are the same, then of course you can't hear a difference. The concept that sound is interpreted somewhat subjectively by people or that there may be some aspect of sound reproduction not captured in basic measurements escapes them.
@@jefft275 If its not captured in basic measurements feel free to suggest what kind of measurements should be used. In fact maybe the cable manufacturers could tell us what measurements they use to evaluate their cable designs?
@@turiddu9 engineering is inherently an unthinking field. They believe in the "good enough" approach for every component in the chain, and believe making components better than they need to be makes no difference.
Wonderfully logical and beautifully explained, thank you! : ) Observation... excellent.
Thomas is the best! Thank you for this great video :-)
I haven’t purchased any cables that cost significant money. I was given something called a MusicWave speaker cable to try out. These were priced from $450-$2000 US, based on gauge of your cable. The device attached to the end of my ordinary14 gauge wire. I wasn’t really given an explanation of what it was supposed to do, but for me I could not hear a enough difference to warrant the spend. I must add I’m well over 60 so my hearing will not be as good as a 30 yr old, just for example. I think that’s the bottom line for cables. Advantages Vs diminishing returns.
I work in the electronics industry, every engineer I talk to says "of course cables make a difference, but only to a point, so be careful". Difference doesn't always mean better either.
I'm assuming that's supposed to say "doesn't"
@@crazyprayingmantis5596 yep, typo
Thomas.
Ure argumenting and summoning up, around this subject. Is the absolute best Ive heard.
Not only cause ive come to the same conclusions.
But cause you (oposite me) are skilled to put it in to understandable words and a good conclusion.
Great chanel great humble personality. Thankyou.
/ J
There are at least two integral part of science here as well: empirical evidence and replication of studies. Both are present in cables: there are overwhelming reports of empirical evidence showing results in sound differences between cables, and those differences are replicated (and confirmed) by multiples sources in different parts of the world; therefore those differences reasonably exist. If measurement can’t explain those differences, then we at least know that at the moment the measurement technology is not able to explain the phenomenon. Thank you Thomas for this wonderful opportunity to discuss the topic 🔥❤️.
Well said Thomas. I myself don't believe that cables make a difference. That's also why I really admire what Amir of ASR is doing. That being said I don't hate people that think they can hear a difference. Maybe there really is a difference but I think for the majority of CASUAL listeners like me won't even hear or notice if there really is a difference. That's why I myself just can't seem to understand why some people spend an enormous amount of money on cables. Which is most probably the reason why people who have the same opinion as me feel like these cable companies are just snake oil salesmen and just trying to fool consumers. Gene of Audioholics had a similar experience with Audioquest which gave him vague explanations. I know you feel that cables do make a difference and I respect that.
I myself wonder when these cable companies proudly say what their products are capable of but NEVER post their test results or measurements to prove their claims.
Forget Amir and forget Gene. Follow your own ears. Test good quality used cables in your system and decide by yourself. I did, with used cables, without knowing their exact models and price, and in my system, there was clearly a difference in sound. After several days I picked the one I liked the most. It was neither the cheapest nor the most expensive, but definitely better than my previous cables.
@@vmpty I'm into movies and not much music listening. Something like 95% I use my system for Home Theater. I just use good cables nothing exotic or outrageously expensive. I would rather spend it on gear than cables. I even listened and tried my friend's Mcintosh amp and tried to compare it to his Denon AVR and I couldn't tell any difference.
@@johnlim7720 if you do mostly home theater I fully understand what you mean. In my own HT setup I don't mind much about cables either.
Thomas, you look so cold! Stop buying gear in the winter months and turn on the heat! Lol
Fellow Canadian Wayne here, from Vancouver!
I just need to turn on one of my tube amps :)
Excellent video Thomas! Whenever I hear the people make arguments on either side of the cable debate (but too often the measurement guys) I am reminded of Neil DeGrasse Tyson when he said: "A great challenge of life: Knowing enough to think you are right, but not knowing enough to know you are wrong."
Great clip! It's a debate between audiophiles that can not settle.
I believe, cable need to match the system that I have.
My experience with cables and interconnect is that they should be of solid quality,but imho its a waste
of money to go beyond the low two digits pricerange per meter. And yes,there is a lot of make believe
and scamming going on in that niche of the market.
Pick up a led zeppelin album put it on and listen to it. An enjoy the record. Thanks that is all
A love your analytical approach to the problem with testing (cables or anything else). The biggest obstacle and biggest variable by far, of any test is the Human in us! Our past experiences and assumptions, our willingness to accept and embrace the results, even if they’re different than our beliefs AND over all the need to fit in, being bias just to be part of the majority even if the conclusions are against it.
Human mind is a powerful device, untestable and unstable mystery.
One track of the blind test should be three trials of listening the same cable, I bet the results will be interesting.
But you should tell people that ie. second demo is a fancy 6000$ cable :)
Oh this is going to be good!
Let me know what you think once you are done!
@@ThomasAndStereo Love it! I much like you try to remain open minded. On my own systems I do not hear much difference in cables but on others systems I have noticed. In one of your tests I heard one that was bright and one that was warm. For me the bright was too much but the warm was almost muddied by warmth. I would want something in between. I have seen a few cable videos with measurements like Gene's which were pretty good.
All being sIaid if someone likes their cables great! Everyone should do what pleases them and no one should put someone down for it. I have a fairly budget system compared to many so I may not get the benefits of high end cables where others would.
@@scottyo64 The only way you’ll find out is to try some different cables.
@@Audiofreak71 I have 6 sets from Kimber, Audioquest etc. Etc. Change out with my 10 gauge ofc and it sounds the same on my system. The set I currently use I like the looks so they became keepers.
@@scottyo64 Have you ever tried OCC7N copper on your system?
My Nordost don't need a box to "sound" marvelous.
I like the way you think about things, we are somewhat similar in that aspect
The pic of the network shows a resistor and a poly styrene cap. The wires look intact yet slit open so we have an RC network connected in parallel to the normal conductors. This is called 'terminating' the cable and is more typically done in the electronics, for example the 75 ohm resistor terminating a SPDIF cable just beyond the jack on a DAC. Speaker cables are not radio frequency transmission lines like video coax or ethernet twisted pairs so here a guess would be the RC network rolls off above audio frequencies noise which potentially makes the amplifier's feedback network more stable.
Oh, thanks for explaining, I have no idea.
This is the best explanation but you won't change those people.
Which ones?
All he did was give an opinion, there is no science or test to back it up.
Science explains the observable and is simply our current best understanding, it is never truth. Measurements are of use only if we can measure what we are observing. Many audio designers will admit that several internal components are chosen by ear alone, as they can hear the difference despite not being able to measure where that observable difference comes from.
I am an engineer rooted in science, and trained in recording engineering. I want to tell you all cables sound the same as it seems to make sense and distances myself from the undoubted snake oil salesman. But I know from 40 years of experience that cables DO sound different and i have experienced this many times and confirmed with friends in blind tests, to my satisfaction at least. Id rather they didnt, as id rather not spend much, but im happy with my choices and i cannot ignore what I hear.
There are crooks out there looking for your money no question, but there are also cables that genuinely sound better, and fir me, thats a fact.
I suppose that people may well hear a difference between speaker cables, but more importantly it should be which cable do you prefer. As a conduit for sound between the amp and speaker, all you could really hope is that the cable makes as little change as possible. This means no cable can improve the source material, but they can mask the tones, separation of the bass, mid-range and treble as well as impact the soundstage. All I want is the most transparent cables.
Are there any links to audio comparisons?
Amir from ASR does not approve this video.
But I do, everything so well said, Thomas The Story Teller Stereo!
they are a joke...measurements are the only thing that matters !
@@Dobbs65 he knows very much about electrics but doesn't know much about how to listen
@@hudo there is no "special" way of listening. Either something makes a difference or it doesn't, and measurements and test prove that there is NO scientific or logical reason why 2 different cables that measure identical would sound different other than strong cognitive bias.
@@dakken74 so that's it, it has to be bias, it can't sound different because way its measured its absolutely perfect? Even if bunch of people hear the difference? Did you even watch this video, or ever tested any cable on half decent stereo system?
@@hudo yes I watched the whole video and found no compelling argument for why cables should sound different other than a "belief" that they would or a trying to dismiss the findings of actual electrical engineers by saying that measurements are not science.
Did the blind test and couldn't hear much difference, I preferred A. Which means it's not worth for me to spend money on cables.
Good treatment of how to use the scientific method. Measurements are one form of data and may or may not be capable of determining the outcome of a question/hypothesis. EVERYTHING in the signal path makes a difference or even better yet, everything that impacts the signal path makes a difference. Good job explaining the difficulties of real unbiased observation.
I attended a demonstration of Transparent Audio speaker cable years ago. They demoed their top of the line speaker cables with and without their network boxes. The system was Levinson and Wilson Watt Puppies. These cables were 10k at that time. For the life of me I couldn't tell the difference.
If you could not tell the difference, then there is most likely no difference. Or the difference in that setup is not significant enough. I always say, if you have to concentrate a lot to hear any differences, then there is no difference.
This was superbly explained and well argued. Well done Thomas!
In a lot of the blind tests, the subjects are asked to identify the differences, no matter how subtle it is. A or B, which one is better. At some point, the differences may be so minor, that it does not matter. Enjoy the music, not chasing the cables/equipment that make a difference that you won't notice 99% of the time.
You will notice cables and interconnects 100% of the time not 1% of the time. It's very easy to go look up a AB comparison on pursue perfect system or jays UA-cam channels for hear it along with The thousands of people who say it is night and day.
@@redleather420 moon audio dragon cables for headphones gave me more than the stock cables.
@@redleather420 Yes. If we are comparing a $6 cable and a $300 cable, there would be obvious differences. What about between $300 and $1,000 cable? The difference may not be so obvious. It would be interesting if someone conduct a test, asking the subjects the difference between "two different cables" but indeed they are one and the same. Just a thought.
@@tw9668 I've seen plenty of tests at least on scientifically most people seem to show quite a large difference even as the price keeps going up but that is on 50 to $200,000 systems so maybe not on your average system or maybe the cables are just amazing and very rare or something
Thank you for outlining the Scientific Method!!! It's definitely not used enough. While measurements are important, if I can't hear an obvious improvement in the sound it doesn't matter.
Is it possible that the type of amplification in the Devialet amp is less sensitive to the different electrical characteristics of different cables than a class a/b amp?
Sure, but it could be some setting I enabled on the Devialet that I was not aware of too. Or maybe synergy with the speaker.
this was a real good explonation. i was always open mindet. but most people arent. i sad always to myself power cables doesnt matter at all...i tryied a view of them and dont heard any difference...until i got a nordost heimdall 2...awesome but the frey 2 was much better overall, especialy in the bass. but i realy had to try it and make my own experience. but i bet i will pass the blind test, cause its just to much that you dont hear it.
People,, stear clear of short cables. , they send the dynamics all weard.. They don't to let the cable do its job properly...
Best of the bests. Best explanation ive ever heard on this "delicate" subject. My favourite yt channel. Its a pleasure to whatch your video. 👏🏻
Thanks for your explanation on cables , and your explanation on the double blind test , I heard a nicely set up sonus faber sonnata speaker
Personally, I think this is your best video so far, and you made it at the right moment. I truly enjoyed every second. I do believe we usually create our own reasoning according to how we feel. "Proving" something is not done usually by just one test or one database. That is why in the medical field it takes thousands of research to make some assumption "acceptable".
Yes, exactly my point.
time to get some popcorn and read the comments haha
But now I will of course watch your videos.😉
One part of a scientific test double blind test would be to measure the cables. Don't assume they'd necessarily measure the same while possibly sounding different. Some expensive high end speaker cable manufacturers indeed do things to their cables that can change the measured performance. So *of course* it would be possible to hear a difference in that case.
Some high end speaker cable designers do things to their cables that raise or lower their impedance or otherwise affect the signal delivered to the speakers, especially varying with frequency. The cable's impedance might go up with frequency, for example.
So if there is an audible difference identified by the listeners, do measurements at the speaker terminals of both cables. Discuss which cable delivers the more measurably accurate signal, if one does.
Finally a great explanation for all those know-it-all‘s „with engineering background“ 👍🏼. LOL
Glad you enjoyed it!
I'm late to the party here but that photo is blowing my mind. What a lot of people are missing is that there is also a capacitor in there, a little polystyrene item (the silver foil in a clear body at the top) It's likely wired in parallel (or maybe in series?) with that Vishay resistor to make an RC filter. You can see where they were soldered together with the blob on the resistor lead. What does that do? It's a noise filter to get rid of high frequency interference. One you can make for like 50 cents. Maybe 5$ if you use the same parts you see in the photo. If you search for RC filters on speaker cables you'll see it's not a new idea.
It's for people who fail to understand that audio works orders of magnitude smaller frequencies than radio frequencies. And some possible trace elements of radio frequencies are totally negated by the crude crossover network / dynamic drivers. It's like claiming a jumping mouse is causing a pyramid to shake.