I've often thought, Raoul could start a franchise for repairing carbon frames. If I was in need of a carbon repair I wouldn't feel confident with anyone else doing it.
Thanks for uploading. Fascinating the steps that bike manufacturers skip to prepare a frame. Just that small detail of the bonding agent could prevent a heap of trouble
''in the factory they don't do it'' This is true, I've had two very expensive Cervelo frames ruined by them not doing this very simple process. Luckily both were warrantied on other matters, but they did not consider the degrading of the frame through this corrosion a significant matter although it ruins your frame aesthetically and mechanically. I can't believe I paid top money for such shoddy manufacturing. I sold both new frames on and purchased well made bikes frames instead. You know what Cervelo told me to do....''Put some vaselline over the corrosion and delamination '' !
Hi Raul - Thank you so much for producing an excellent series of videos. Why is it so ridiculously common to see the use of stainless bottle mount bolts which offer unneeded high torque up and release setting ? Also why is it that little if ever use is made of thread sealants on bicycles and not thread locking compounds as thread sealants perform much better than greases. Greases are easily removed by detergents - High pressure water jet cleaning - Corrosion - Atmospheric contaminants and variances inTemperature conditions. THREAD SEALANTS can offer a variety of superior performances over greases - Typically : Reduce galvanic corrosion in dissimilar parent metals - Provide Complete insulation from Atmospheric conditions - Offer specific torque up and release settings relevant to material requirements and assist in keeping cohesive integrity and longevity of materials and sealant.
I had this frame in the same colour ways. Sold it to get a disc bike with wider tyre clearance. Kinda wish I hadn’t. This was my favourite bike I’ve ever owned
What's the point of using epoxy? you can't insulate it from behind and the way the rivnut works is to mechanically crimp so you won't get any insulation from it. Unless I've missed something.
The alodine is an anti-corrosive coating for the aluminum. It works similar to anodizing. The epoxy does help, when the rivnut is pulled and the inside mushrooms out, the adhesive oozes out with it and incapsulates the “mushroom” tip. You only need a few thou of adhesive to provide isolation. Finally, it seals the installation so that no electrolyte can get there. If you wanted to have an alternative you could go with duralac for permanently/semi permanent fasteners or lanocote for temporary/serviceable assemblies.
Interesting video. Thanks. What are your thoughts about leaving press fit by some manufacturers? That means more aluminium is the frame with the risk of corrosion??
I could be wrong but where does the Galvanic Corrosion circuit come from?? You have a Carbon Frame - Neutral & some Aluminium Rivnuts : -ve Are the rivnuts just not corroding due to the salty sweat and leaking water bottles sitting on top of the rivnuts causing them to corrode?? There is nothing on the bikes where an electrical circuit is being set up to cause the electrolyte solution to create some very small electron wizardry. If this is the case then Stainless or another higher resistant corroding metal should be used. Either way, I still enjoyed your video :)
Exactly. I also in doubts if metall pkus carbon may corrode with water or some. Carbon is neutral. Metall may coorode or two different metals may corrode together as galvanic pair while both stay in water. Probably this happen as pair with bolts. Moreover just aluminium alone in water or weak acid takes protections film of its oxide and will not corrode further. I am not chemic but root cause here is the question.
aluminum and carbon is litterally the worst-case for galvanic corrosion. Ti and carbon has essentially zero galvanic issues. 316 ss is also a great option.
Hi, I have a problem on a CUBE MTB. The Bearing of the chainstay has play, in an aluminium frame Iwould go ahead an glue it in with Loctite 648. Can I use the same method on a Carbon frame?
Outstanding content! Thanks a lot for sharing. I have a question, I want to drill new holes on the lower tube for a bottle cage, I know I will be cutting some of the carbon threads, but isn't it like the manufacturers do? It seems like they mold the frames and then drill those holes, isn't it?
Is alodine more or less protective than anodising the inserts (alodine is difficult & expensive to get in the uk, & environmentally horrible). Any opinion on just using a stainless steel rivnut rather than aluminium?
I had an old Trek 8900 frame that epoxied threaded external posts to the carbon tubes instead of drilling them so you'd use nuts instead of bolts to affix the water bottle. No compromising tube strength, no galvanic corrosion. Superior design by far.
Luescher Teknik how come you dont anodize the AL inserts sd well as the obvios bonding needed? I thot that prevents the interface corrosion in general and additionally it would stop the exposed AL from oxidizing.
Is it not somewhat counterproductive to bond the rivnuts in? The bonding could make it difficult to replace the rivnut the next time. Depending on the strength of the adhesive and the thickness of the bead you might be forced to use excessive force to remove it and risk delamination. Even if the insert is less likely to fail due to corrosion, it still might need replacing - due to stripped thread for instance. I almost stripped the threads on one of my bottle cage inserts (I presume they were overstressed during installation, I felt them starting to go and left off immediately). I was thinking about replacing them, first passivating the rivnut in some way (oxidising with some kind of acid) and using something like silicone sealant to prevent ingress into the interface. Also, painting the rivnut before installing could provide some insulation from carbon. In other words, you've shown us how to replace inserts the correct way, but it would be useful if you showed us how to do it the half-decent way, for people who don't have access to airspace-grade compounds and sealants, and specialist tools like rivnut pliers. For instance, one could use a bolt and nut of appropriate dimensions to pull on the threads of the rivnut and so tighten it.
If you do no have the correct tools don't do the job, get someone who does to do it for you. Unless you are in the middle of nowhere. Don't paint the rivnut either, as soon as it is compressed into place the paint will crack and flake off.
@@Rover200Power Sure, having proper tooling is the best option, but not having the "correct" tool has never stopped me doing the job, in case I have a reasonable expectation to do it well. For me, any kind of tool - bought or improvised - IS the correct tool if it does the job. Apropos of painting: I would have used an acrylic paint, which is quite ductile, at least until fully hardened. If it cracks, it will crack mostly in the area that is not in contact with exposed carbon fibres. Of course, it can't be guaranteed that it would protect the insert from corrosion, but it's worth a shot. Especially when you consider that the rivnuts are installed without any type of passivation or separation in the factory. One other option would be putting some thin electronic heat-shrink tubing over it before installing, but that may prove to be too thick to fit. At any rate, I find thinking about solutions to technical problems much more intellectually rewarding than simply having "pay an expert to do it properly" as an answer to everything. I like thinking about this stuff, fixing (and sometimes breaking) it.
horrovac, necessity is the mother of invention and you are on the right track. Even bike mechanics will never have the “correct” tool for all circumstances and will improvise. www.junoindustries.eu/en/products/range/rivet-nut/rubber-rivet-nut-from-specialinsert-type-rubber-nut.html www.junoindustries.eu/media/productpdf/275/rubber_nut_rev01en.pdf
Sometimes you have to improvise and I also enjoy a tech challenge, however the correct tool makes a repetitive job much easier. Paint and heat shrink are less than ideal when epoxy adhesive is readily available.
Hi, thanks for the video 👍 I watched this as, after much deliberation, I think I’m going to install 3 rivet nuts in my Kinesis ATR V1 carbon fork to carry more water. I’ve come to the view that the 3 holes will be in the neutral axis of the fork so shouldn’t impact strength and if properly bonded as you show should be ok. But….. thought I would reach out for an opinion from a carbon expert before I make a daft move. Do you think doing this would be insane, moderately sensible or absolutely fine….. if done with care? Thanks for any thoughts, I know it’s a bit of a difficult question to answer.
Great video, thanks for sharing. I’m about to do similar to relocate a FD hanger lower on my seat tube. Can only find Aluprep and Alodine in huge quantities in Australia. Any ideas where I can get my hands on a thimbleful?
Great vid Raul! When installing new rivnuts after drilling new holes in a carbon tube, does there need to be any carbon reinforcement added to the surrounding area prior to installing the rivnuts with epoxy?
Nice job but instead of problematic aluminum, I would use a strong plastic insert- if I used an insert at all (I would not.) That 0.001 layer of adhesive will wear off in about a week. Instead, I would simply use a CF wrap method e.g., use carbon fiber to wrap e.g., a flat plastic or CF bracket. This can hold the bottle holder onto the frame. It would spread the forces out better and be safer overall. If anything, it will make that section of the frame stronger. Anytime you drill, shock or introduce aluminum into a CF frame, you are making it structurally weaker.
Please cut up one of these older isaac frames, that company from the netherlands, id like to see one of their frames from the inside. I wanna know if ive been riding something thats a potential threat to me haha
Hi Raoul, great video! I was just wondering why they use Aluminium Rivnuts instead of Stainless steel? Would Stainless be the better option for a replacement?
this happened to a mounting point on my carbon fork recently. a ton of white dust, almost sand like, accumulated then the insert just dislodged. my question is: is the fork still safe to ride? does it damage the carbon layup when the insert corrodes so much?
Why? If they find people rich/dumb enough to buy these why should the refrain from saving a few pennies and make a few more pennies more or invest them into marketing bs? ,-)
No. Grease on the bolt threads would coat (and likely protect) the inner bore of the insert (the area that comes in contact with the bolt), but this would do nothing for the outer surface of the insert that comes into contact with the frame material.
Hi. Love the video series and helpful content. May I ask what would your choice be regarding replacing bottle cage mounts on a 6031 alloy frame. Which would you use - Alloy or 304 Austenitic Stainless steel Rivnuts ? Many thanks and happy pedalling 🙏
@@LuescherTeknik Thanks for your message Raul. There was evident galvanic corrosion between the original alloy rivnut and bottom frame tube when I removed the original rivnuts. Bare in mind this bike is only 3 years old and the original rivnuts had been sprayed with clear coat which sealed them from exterior contamination. but it didn't stop interior deterioration. Many bikes are now coming on the market with no paint job at all - Just a brushed alloy finish a couple of transfers and a spray of clear coat - This saves companies millions of dollars in time - materials and labour. Sorry I got side tracked. I removed both 5mm bottle mounts and replaced them with 6mm alloy rivnuts. I agree I would also use the two preparations but I was unwilling to pay $200 for the two bottles of prep fluids. I have simply cleaned & sterilised the Alloy rivnuts and applied epoxy to the mating surfaces - I'll be keeping an eye on them too as I know you can easily get Galvanic action from two mating components machined from the same billet. Best wishes and happy pedalling 🙏
@@LuescherTeknik Hi Raoul. I have since been able to find smaller amounts of bottled Alodine & Alumiprep in Australia which makes the whole process financially friendly - Under $80 ! Many thanks for your help and best wishes Raoul 🙏
I've been told by my bike store and Ridley that its up to me to do this for a stripped out rackmount after 1 year of use! So I'm hoping to do this right since my mount is inline in the seatstay so there is mm's for room for error. Was wondering where I could source good quality rivnuts online? and typical sizing?
Typical sizing is M5. They are available in almost every hardware store. Nothing special is required. Just avoid the zink coated ones. For the bling you can go straight for stainless.
Raoul what is your technique for dealing with rivnuts that are loose in their socket and therefore can't be drilled out? Have encountered this several times over the years, usually when the bottle cage bolt is corrodded and the force needed to remove it exceeds the strength of the rivnut/socket bond. Seems a bit of anti sieze or grease on the bolt thread during assembly would help avoid this issue.
Yes this can be a problem, I have a range of methods and have always managed to get them out, usually by careful drilling. Prevention is always better than the cure in this case.
This is not a DIY effort. Don't try this at home kids. BTW, wouldn't Ti inserts last indefinitely? Is there anything we can do to minimize the corrosion and prolong the life of the factory inserts?
Yeah, use the same material for the frame as for the inserts ;-) My aluminium frame has a claimed weight of just under 1kg. I don't know why I should buy a carbon frame with a similar claimed weight or 100 to 200g less, while it costs way more money I can invest in some other lighter parts on the bike.
Anodizing is a good idea and would help with the outside portion, but I suspect the surface would crack when the rivnut is compressed. So part of what the adhesive helps with.
@@LuescherTeknik Understood, but it would make a much better product with minimal cost and effort. Sealing with adhesive when put in would solve this problem ( for ever? ) Rgr
Вообще неизвестно. По хорошему должны быть нержавеющие втулки и точно такие же болты из аналогичного материала. Тогда не будет гальванической пары и если эта нержавейка выдерживает воду или соленую воду -. тогда не с чего ржаветь
Can't understand that manufacturers who sale us carbon frames at very high prices saying that it's partially because it's labor intensive and they skip an operation that would cost them almost nothing and would add less than a minute of processing in a manufacturing environment. But then again, I'm not surprised by anything in an industry (not the only one) where accountants are responsible of final manufacturing decisions.
No accountant I know would risk potential reputational damage and resultant loss in revenue. It all comes back to the people who run these companies deciding that, as long as they make their money, they can live with compromised R&D and QA.
@@pam00088 Yeah. In this world, we all know accountants are the most honest people. The fact that you don't know a dishonest accountant is irrelevant. It's anecdotal evidence. I don't know accountant that is gay. Yet they exist !
Sylvain Michaud My bad. I totally didn’t realise that you have insider knowledge. Weird coincidence that bike companies with poor quality control are all owned by dishonest accountants though.
@@pam00088 Owners are the share holders in most cases. Decision are made by those nominared as CEO, CFO, ... These people need accomplices to operate in a way that generate bad products. Engineering, Accounting, Marketing, ... are involved. But in most cases, specialized accountant will make recommendation in order to reduce production costs and maximize profits against the engineers recommendations. Just like marketing will pressure for earlier production before engineers would recommend for safe and reliable products. And yes, I have been involved as a product manager (not in cycling). Most of the time, products are bring to market, to early in their development cycle with really stupid manufacturing choices made along the way. People that are in denial are generally the ones benefitting of the system or those that have a vision of the world that would collapse and prefer to be blind to reality and generally have a tendency to be right wing.
If you don't have a rivnut tool or want more robust threaded inserts, you can buy stainless M6 Tee nuts, cut the teeth off, scuff them with the rotary tool, bond them in the hole with JBweld, flat side up, and press a couple layers of CF over the top to really lock them in place. Take care and it'll even look nice.
Would this “rubber isolation brass threaded insert” offer a possible longterm solution; www.junoindustries.eu/en/products/range/rivet-nut/rubber-rivet-nut-from-specialinsert-type-rubber-nut.html www.junoindustries.eu/media/productpdf/275/rubber_nut_rev01en.pdf May require slightly enlarging the frame hole 8tenths of a mm to accept the insert, however it requires no special tool to install.
rkan2, I believe the same could be done as others have suggested using heat shrink tubing on an aluminum rivnut prior to installation. May still require enlarging the hole .5-.8mm. I think I will go clean the sweat off my bike now since this topic is a good reminder to not neglect the minor things that can become problematic later on. 🤨
Luescher Teknik, the 2nd link is the technical document and assembly states deformation upon tightening, so they should tighten permanently. The subject matter was a great reminder of not ignoring the small hidden details of regular cleaning. With the heat and humidity I ride in, I rain sweat all over the top and downtube.
Holy shit that's clean so satisfying to look at the clean finished priduct
Hope you're training an apprentice...the knowledge is incredible!! 👌👌👌
I've often thought, Raoul could start a franchise for repairing carbon frames. If I was in need of a carbon repair I wouldn't feel confident with anyone else doing it.
Thanks for uploading. Fascinating the steps that bike manufacturers skip to prepare a frame. Just that small detail of the bonding agent could prevent a heap of trouble
Fascinating on a hideously expensive frame too..... Ergh
@@richardhaselwood9478 Expensive for the buyer. As cheap as possible for the manufacturer, err, brand.
Why can't all engineers, fitters,mechanics take as much care as this?
Great work chap 👍
profit
Drilling extra holes is less than ideal.....🤣🤣🤣
Great video! Informative, funny, and to the point. Thank you.
Thanks for sharing such a detailed video on this. Its great to see the care and effort you put into such a repair.
''in the factory they don't do it'' This is true, I've had two very expensive Cervelo frames ruined by them not doing this very simple process. Luckily both were warrantied on other matters, but they did not consider the degrading of the frame through this corrosion a significant matter although it ruins your frame aesthetically and mechanically. I can't believe I paid top money for such shoddy manufacturing. I sold both new frames on and purchased well made bikes frames instead. You know what Cervelo told me to do....''Put some vaselline over the corrosion and delamination '' !
I was not aware that vaseline could repair delamination, thanks for the tip from Cervelo ;)
@@LuescherTeknik lol
Thats the way "they" should work, we pay 12000 €'s for a bike and the finished product don't justifies the value. Good job Mr. Luescher !!!
Hi Raul - Thank you so much for producing an excellent series of videos. Why is it so ridiculously common to see the use of stainless bottle mount bolts which offer unneeded high torque up and release setting ? Also why is it that little if ever use is made of thread sealants on bicycles and not thread locking compounds as thread sealants perform much better than greases. Greases are easily removed by detergents - High pressure water jet cleaning - Corrosion - Atmospheric contaminants and variances inTemperature conditions. THREAD SEALANTS can offer a variety of superior performances over greases - Typically : Reduce galvanic corrosion in dissimilar parent metals - Provide Complete insulation from Atmospheric conditions - Offer specific torque up and release settings relevant to material requirements and assist in keeping cohesive integrity and longevity of materials and sealant.
An true expert in action. Chapeau!
Now, how about teaching the bike industry - or at least outing the miscreants!!
Thanks, a simple process done correctly. 👍
EXCELLENT VIDEO AND INSTRUCTIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Really useful video, I've never worked in a shop where we've used adhesive 😐
Fascinating and informative.
Thanks for the explanation Raoul.
Very interesting! You are full of interesting knowledge. Love learning from your videos! Keep em coming.
Love it, very good video, important advice
I had this frame in the same colour ways. Sold it to get a disc bike with wider tyre clearance. Kinda wish I hadn’t. This was my favourite bike I’ve ever owned
Thanks for sharing. Hope can share more of carbon repair tutorial
I use those binder sticky circles to repair paper holes around those inserts, seals off the inserts perfectly!!
Thanks for this : top knowledge
Can you do a video on your carbon repair process?
Thanks Raoul, fascinating to watch. Curious with a water bottle cage insert what not just use stainless steel over aluminum?
The pull down force for stainless can be excessive, aluminium is fine if handled correctly.
What's the point of using epoxy? you can't insulate it from behind and the way the rivnut works is to mechanically crimp so you won't get any insulation from it. Unless I've missed something.
Shhhh Sanjeev Varah with your bogus tech knowledge LOL - why are you using a fake name and fake credentials?
The alodine is an anti-corrosive coating for the aluminum. It works similar to anodizing. The epoxy does help, when the rivnut is pulled and the inside mushrooms out, the adhesive oozes out with it and incapsulates the “mushroom” tip. You only need a few thou of adhesive to provide isolation. Finally, it seals the installation so that no electrolyte can get there. If you wanted to have an alternative you could go with duralac for permanently/semi permanent fasteners or lanocote for temporary/serviceable assemblies.
@@dafj5618 how is Stafford road today? Do pass on my regards to Michelle, Maurice
@@Hambini what are you talking about
@@dafj5618 Norwich pharmacol, maurice
I'm surprised the bike frame doesn't get all scratched up on that dirty workspace.
You need something soft... like a princess blanket. ;)
My Little Pony blanket?
@@justsayin3600
Maybe I need to improve on my delivery... :( Those in the know will get it. ;)
@@itsm3th3b33 Specifically a Disney Princess blanket 😉
@@richardhaselwood9478 HELLO [insert name] FANS!
Hello hambini fans
Great video, thanks for sharing!
With the right tools it’s quite a simple operation
Interesting video. Thanks. What are your thoughts about leaving press fit by some manufacturers? That means more aluminium is the frame with the risk of corrosion??
I have this happened on my Trek Emonda ALR. Need to fix it because the bottle rattles now... Thanks for the tips!
What sort of bonding agents are preferable depending on the application?
Really awesome! Would you please consider uploading some UT scanning tutorial for newbies to scan their own frames?
They do make rubber rivnuts with metal threads. They are for vibration damping and electrical insulation
I could be wrong but where does the Galvanic Corrosion circuit come from??
You have a Carbon Frame - Neutral & some Aluminium Rivnuts : -ve
Are the rivnuts just not corroding due to the salty sweat and leaking water bottles sitting on top of the rivnuts causing them to corrode?? There is nothing on the bikes where an electrical circuit is being set up to cause the electrolyte solution to create some very small electron wizardry.
If this is the case then Stainless or another higher resistant corroding metal should be used.
Either way, I still enjoyed your video :)
Exactly. I also in doubts if metall pkus carbon may corrode with water or some. Carbon is neutral. Metall may coorode or two different metals may corrode together as galvanic pair while both stay in water. Probably this happen as pair with bolts. Moreover just aluminium alone in water or weak acid takes protections film of its oxide and will not corrode further. I am not chemic but root cause here is the question.
There is a potential difference between carbon and aluminium, salty sweat adds additional electrolyte to the mix.
aluminum and carbon is litterally the worst-case for galvanic corrosion. Ti and carbon has essentially zero galvanic issues. 316 ss is also a great option.
Hi, I have a problem on a CUBE MTB. The Bearing of the chainstay has play, in an aluminium frame Iwould go ahead an glue it in with Loctite 648. Can I use the same method on a Carbon frame?
can anyone please upload a link to the tools, the glue and the inserts
Anything that can help prevent this type of corrosion in the first place?
Correct install and corrosion protection.
Outstanding content! Thanks a lot for sharing.
I have a question, I want to drill new holes on the lower tube for a bottle cage, I know I will be cutting some of the carbon threads, but isn't it like the manufacturers do?
It seems like they mold the frames and then drill those holes, isn't it?
"Often" there is additional material where the insert is, please don't drill random holes in your frame.
@@LuescherTeknik you are right. I found out they put some extra small layers on this areas.
Thanks for the advice.
Where to purchase online or EBay all tool and rivets necessary to make the installation.
Thanks
Is alodine more or less protective than anodising the inserts (alodine is difficult & expensive to get in the uk, & environmentally horrible). Any opinion on just using a stainless steel rivnut rather than aluminium?
What would happen if I skipped the Aluprep and Alodine steps, used the epoxy, and then touched up the bare surface of the rivet with a spot of paint?
The surface prep is very important if you want the epoxy to adhere to aluminium.
I had an old Trek 8900 frame that epoxied threaded external posts to the carbon tubes instead of drilling them so you'd use nuts instead of bolts to affix the water bottle. No compromising tube strength, no galvanic corrosion. Superior design by far.
How about a layer of PTFE plumbers tape wrapped around the rivnut to instead of epoxy to insulate the aluminum from the carbon?
I would not recommend this for a number of reasons #lessthanideal
Question, do you need to follow the same steps if you use stainless steel inserts?
Luescher Teknik how come you dont anodize the AL inserts sd well as the obvios bonding needed? I thot that prevents the interface corrosion in general and additionally it would stop the exposed AL from oxidizing.
Alodining is easier and faster for him to do than anodizing.
Anodizing can crack when the insert is deformed. Alodine is simple and effective.
Thank you.
Great video, Raoul. Any thoughts on stainless steel rivnuts instead of Al?
Why not use stainless steel rivenut ?
Is it not somewhat counterproductive to bond the rivnuts in? The bonding could make it difficult to replace the rivnut the next time. Depending on the strength of the adhesive and the thickness of the bead you might be forced to use excessive force to remove it and risk delamination.
Even if the insert is less likely to fail due to corrosion, it still might need replacing - due to stripped thread for instance. I almost stripped the threads on one of my bottle cage inserts (I presume they were overstressed during installation, I felt them starting to go and left off immediately). I was thinking about replacing them, first passivating the rivnut in some way (oxidising with some kind of acid) and using something like silicone sealant to prevent ingress into the interface. Also, painting the rivnut before installing could provide some insulation from carbon.
In other words, you've shown us how to replace inserts the correct way, but it would be useful if you showed us how to do it the half-decent way, for people who don't have access to airspace-grade compounds and sealants, and specialist tools like rivnut pliers. For instance, one could use a bolt and nut of appropriate dimensions to pull on the threads of the rivnut and so tighten it.
If you do no have the correct tools don't do the job, get someone who does to do it for you. Unless you are in the middle of nowhere.
Don't paint the rivnut either, as soon as it is compressed into place the paint will crack and flake off.
@@Rover200Power Sure, having proper tooling is the best option, but not having the "correct" tool has never stopped me doing the job, in case I have a reasonable expectation to do it well. For me, any kind of tool - bought or improvised - IS the correct tool if it does the job. Apropos of painting: I would have used an acrylic paint, which is quite ductile, at least until fully hardened. If it cracks, it will crack mostly in the area that is not in contact with exposed carbon fibres. Of course, it can't be guaranteed that it would protect the insert from corrosion, but it's worth a shot. Especially when you consider that the rivnuts are installed without any type of passivation or separation in the factory. One other option would be putting some thin electronic heat-shrink tubing over it before installing, but that may prove to be too thick to fit.
At any rate, I find thinking about solutions to technical problems much more intellectually rewarding than simply having "pay an expert to do it properly" as an answer to everything. I like thinking about this stuff, fixing (and sometimes breaking) it.
horrovac, necessity is the mother of invention and you are on the right track. Even bike mechanics will never have the “correct” tool for all circumstances and will improvise.
www.junoindustries.eu/en/products/range/rivet-nut/rubber-rivet-nut-from-specialinsert-type-rubber-nut.html
www.junoindustries.eu/media/productpdf/275/rubber_nut_rev01en.pdf
Sometimes you have to improvise and I also enjoy a tech challenge, however the correct tool makes a repetitive job much easier. Paint and heat shrink are less than ideal when epoxy adhesive is readily available.
The "liquid weld" shite used in the video will become brittle after a year or so anyway...
Hi, thanks for the video 👍 I watched this as, after much deliberation, I think I’m going to install 3 rivet nuts in my Kinesis ATR V1 carbon fork to carry more water. I’ve come to the view that the 3 holes will be in the neutral axis of the fork so shouldn’t impact strength and if properly bonded as you show should be ok. But….. thought I would reach out for an opinion from a carbon expert before I make a daft move. Do you think doing this would be insane, moderately sensible or absolutely fine….. if done with care? Thanks for any thoughts, I know it’s a bit of a difficult question to answer.
I would NOT do this, do not drill holes where they haven't been allowed in the design. Maybe bond a stud to the outer face but don't drill holes.
Thanks for the advice, I hadn’t thought about a bonded boss option…… a much better idea :-) cheers
Great video, thanks for sharing. I’m about to do similar to relocate a FD hanger lower on my seat tube. Can only find Aluprep and Alodine in huge quantities in Australia. Any ideas where I can get my hands on a thimbleful?
Instead of two component epoxy I would recommend acrylic glue as used for example for phone screens for the coating and insulating.
I've seen the braze on front derailleur inserts come loose on a $5300 frame before. Would have never happened if epoxy was used.
Most manufacturers place a fiberglass patch where rivnuts go to prevent galvanic corrosion.
Could I do the approximately same operation to change an aluminum thread insert in a carbon frame (where the rear wheel axle enter)
Great vid Raul! When installing new rivnuts after drilling new holes in a carbon tube, does there need to be any carbon reinforcement added to the surrounding area prior to installing the rivnuts with epoxy?
It depends if there is carbon damage or not, sometimes I need to do a carbon repair prior to fitting the insert.
Great video. Can you apply the same technique on a mudguard attachment insert on a carbon fork?
Yes, they are typically the same inserts.
Nice job but instead of problematic aluminum, I would use a strong plastic insert- if I used an insert at all (I would not.) That 0.001 layer of adhesive will wear off in about a week. Instead, I would simply use a CF wrap method e.g., use carbon fiber to wrap e.g., a flat plastic or CF bracket. This can hold the bottle holder onto the frame. It would spread the forces out better and be safer overall. If anything, it will make that section of the frame stronger. Anytime you drill, shock or introduce aluminum into a CF frame, you are making it structurally weaker.
Please cut up one of these older isaac frames, that company from the netherlands, id like to see one of their frames from the inside. I wanna know if ive been riding something thats a potential threat to me haha
are titanium inserts available (to prevent galvanic reaction with carbon)?
Titanium is also subject to galvanic corrosion when contacting carbon fiber.
@@roydarnell3683 titanium is relatively inert with carbon
@@n0ch91c3s That's what I thought too until I did a little more research.
Aluminium is fine if treated correctly and maintained.
Luescher Teknik right-ho. thanks.
Hi Raoul, great video! I was just wondering why they use Aluminium Rivnuts instead of Stainless steel? Would Stainless be the better option for a replacement?
The force required to pull down the stainless steel inserts is greater which can damage the carbon laminate.
@@LuescherTeknik Thanks! I knew there would be a good reason for this.
What's the frame size for the 27.5 inch?
this happened to a mounting point on my carbon fork recently. a ton of white dust, almost sand like, accumulated then the insert just dislodged. my question is: is the fork still safe to ride? does it damage the carbon layup when the insert corrodes so much?
There can be degradation of the material in the area, it is difficult to say how much this would affect the safety but it is less than ideal.
producers of $10K frames should study this carefully
It just about makes my blood boil thinking about how expensive that frame would be.
Why? If they find people rich/dumb enough to buy these why should the refrain from saving a few pennies and make a few more pennies more or invest them into marketing bs? ,-)
They know, but don’t give AF, and would rather make a bigger profit on the frame.
Why, they won't do anything with the knowledge, which they already possess?
@@kennethstreet7868 That's a depressingly good point.
I'd be a bag of nerves doing something like this.
It looks pretty easy when the rivnut is tight and doesn’t spin wallowing out the 7.1mm opening. What do you do in that case? Thx for your wisdom.
I hold the insert to stop it rotating whilst I drill it out.
@@LuescherTeknik How do you hold the insert while drilling it out? About to embark on fixing a stripped rackmount...
Hi, nice vid. Is it possible to use stainless steel rivenuts to replace the alu ones? I think they will last even longer.
The pull down force for stainless can be excessive, aluminium is fine if handled correctly.
Would grease on the bolt treads help keep moisture out from the frame fitting enough?
No. Grease on the bolt threads would coat (and likely protect) the inner bore of the insert (the area that comes in contact with the bolt), but this would do nothing for the outer surface of the insert that comes into contact with the frame material.
Hi. Love the video series and helpful content. May I ask what would your choice be regarding replacing bottle cage mounts on a 6031 alloy frame. Which would you use - Alloy or 304 Austenitic Stainless steel Rivnuts ? Many thanks and happy pedalling 🙏
Ideal is to use the same alloy aluminium.
@@LuescherTeknik Many Thanks for the reply Raul - Would you Lumiprep and Alodine the rivnuts and epoxy the alloy surface contact areas?
I would, yes.
@@LuescherTeknik Thanks for your message Raul. There was evident galvanic corrosion between the original alloy rivnut and bottom frame tube when I removed the original rivnuts. Bare in mind this bike is only 3 years old and the original rivnuts had been sprayed with clear coat which sealed them from exterior contamination. but it didn't stop interior deterioration. Many bikes are now coming on the market with no paint job at all - Just a brushed alloy finish a couple of transfers and a spray of clear coat - This saves companies millions of dollars in time - materials and labour. Sorry I got side tracked. I removed both 5mm bottle mounts and replaced them with 6mm alloy rivnuts. I agree I would also use the two preparations but I was unwilling to pay $200 for the two bottles of prep fluids. I have simply cleaned & sterilised the Alloy rivnuts and applied epoxy to the mating surfaces - I'll be keeping an eye on them too as I know you can easily get Galvanic action from two mating components machined from the same billet. Best wishes and happy pedalling 🙏
@@LuescherTeknik Hi Raoul. I have since been able to find smaller amounts of bottled Alodine & Alumiprep in Australia which makes the whole process financially friendly - Under $80 ! Many thanks for your help and best wishes Raoul 🙏
may i know what kind of glue you use to install the new thread??
I showed it in the video.
I've been told by my bike store and Ridley that its up to me to do this for a stripped out rackmount after 1 year of use! So I'm hoping to do this right since my mount is inline in the seatstay so there is mm's for room for error. Was wondering where I could source good quality rivnuts online? and typical sizing?
Typical sizing is M5. They are available in almost every hardware store. Nothing special is required. Just avoid the zink coated ones. For the bling you can go straight for stainless.
Any update on the Colnago C60 video? Coming soon?
I've been really busy and hope to get to it soon.
Raoul what is your technique for dealing with rivnuts that are loose in their socket and therefore can't be drilled out? Have encountered this several times over the years, usually when the bottle cage bolt is corrodded and the force needed to remove it exceeds the strength of the rivnut/socket bond. Seems a bit of anti sieze or grease on the bolt thread during assembly would help avoid this issue.
Also just realised how old this video is. Silly YT algorithm. Oh well, better late then never...
Yes this can be a problem, I have a range of methods and have always managed to get them out, usually by careful drilling. Prevention is always better than the cure in this case.
Series of very fine pie cuts on the outer face. It is time consuming but effective.
Try to glue them in place using a siringe for example and then drill them out.
This is not a DIY effort. Don't try this at home kids. BTW, wouldn't Ti inserts last indefinitely? Is there anything we can do to minimize the corrosion and prolong the life of the factory inserts?
Yeah, use the same material for the frame as for the inserts ;-) My aluminium frame has a claimed weight of just under 1kg. I don't know why I should buy a carbon frame with a similar claimed weight or 100 to 200g less, while it costs way more money I can invest in some other lighter parts on the bike.
Whats the rivnut's usual size used in mountain bikes?
5mm thread
Why are not the inserts anodized for protection?? Oh, they will increase in price by.. almost nothing per mille.. I understand.. Rgr
Anodizing is a good idea and would help with the outside portion, but I suspect the surface would crack when the rivnut is compressed. So part of what the adhesive helps with.
Anodizing can crack when the insert is deformed.
@@LuescherTeknik Understood, but it would make a much better product with minimal cost and effort. Sealing with adhesive when put in would solve this problem ( for ever? ) Rgr
Will stainless inserts work here ?
Вообще неизвестно. По хорошему должны быть нержавеющие втулки и точно такие же болты из аналогичного материала. Тогда не будет гальванической пары и если эта нержавейка выдерживает воду или соленую воду -. тогда не с чего ржаветь
Q. where would one source all the items needed?
Aircraft parts supplier, not cheap though.
Can't understand that manufacturers who sale us carbon frames at very high prices saying that it's partially because it's labor intensive and they skip an operation that would cost them almost nothing and would add less than a minute of processing in a manufacturing environment.
But then again, I'm not surprised by anything in an industry (not the only one) where accountants are responsible of final manufacturing decisions.
No accountant I know would risk potential reputational damage and resultant loss in revenue. It all comes back to the people who run these companies deciding that, as long as they make their money, they can live with compromised R&D and QA.
@@pam00088
Yeah. In this world, we all know accountants are the most honest people.
The fact that you don't know a dishonest accountant is irrelevant.
It's anecdotal evidence.
I don't know accountant that is gay. Yet they exist !
Sylvain Michaud My bad. I totally didn’t realise that you have insider knowledge. Weird coincidence that bike companies with poor quality control are all owned by dishonest accountants though.
@@pam00088
Owners are the share holders in most cases.
Decision are made by those nominared as CEO, CFO, ...
These people need accomplices to operate in a way that generate bad products.
Engineering, Accounting, Marketing, ... are involved.
But in most cases, specialized accountant will make recommendation in order to reduce production costs and maximize profits against the engineers recommendations. Just like marketing will pressure for earlier production before engineers would recommend for safe and reliable products.
And yes, I have been involved as a product manager (not in cycling).
Most of the time, products are bring to market, to early in their development cycle with really stupid manufacturing choices made along the way.
People that are in denial are generally the ones benefitting of the system or those that have a vision of the world that would collapse and prefer to be blind to reality and generally have a tendency to be right wing.
@@pam00088
Remember Volkswagen ?
My titanium frame doesn't seem to have this problem. The bottle bosses are welded in. Did I mention that it's titanium?
If you don't have a rivnut tool or want more robust threaded inserts, you can buy stainless M6 Tee nuts, cut the teeth off, scuff them with the rotary tool, bond them in the hole with JBweld, flat side up, and press a couple layers of CF over the top to really lock them in place. Take care and it'll even look nice.
🤙 👌
Would this “rubber isolation brass threaded insert” offer a possible longterm solution;
www.junoindustries.eu/en/products/range/rivet-nut/rubber-rivet-nut-from-specialinsert-type-rubber-nut.html
www.junoindustries.eu/media/productpdf/275/rubber_nut_rev01en.pdf
May require slightly enlarging the frame hole 8tenths of a mm to accept the insert, however it requires no special tool to install.
Maybe moves too much?
rkan2, fit to the correct size hole and tightened properly, there would be no movement. No galvanic corrosion and sweat resistant.
rkan2, I believe the same could be done as others have suggested using heat shrink tubing on an aluminum rivnut prior to installation. May still require enlarging the hole .5-.8mm.
I think I will go clean the sweat off my bike now since this topic is a good reminder to not neglect the minor things that can become problematic later on. 🤨
I haven't seen those before, thanks for sharing. They do appear to be non permanent which could be a problem.
Luescher Teknik, the 2nd link is the technical document and assembly states deformation upon tightening, so they should tighten permanently.
The subject matter was a great reminder of not ignoring the small hidden details of regular cleaning. With the heat and humidity I ride in, I rain sweat all over the top and downtube.
All this work to save a Pinarello.... just toss it and get a Time.
...or a proper mountain bike. 🤣🤣🤣👍
I thought those things were anodized.
propper!
Awesome video! I make simular content. Would be great to get your feedback
that would be less than ideal when talking about destroying a 6k frame LOL