these theories are fantastic, BUT I would really like if you linked to or showed off on screen where you got the sources from, which books is this lore from?
honestly what outs Guilliman out as an impostor is his meeting with the high lords of Terra, they are at Terra, you know, the massive psychic realm of the Emperor, with the Custodes lurking around making sure no one commits treason, there should be secret codes, secret hand signals, dark age relics, special forms and even mannerisms to make sure no one can mimic his way to the highest seat of goverment, what outs Guilliman as an impostor is that the Custodes dont inmediatly crush the High Lords entire body, souls, descendants and anyone even slightly related to them when their plot to overthrow Guilliman started, thats because it wasnt treason, it wasnt treason because Guilliman's rule wouldnt be legitimate, and the only way his rule wouldnt be legitimate is if he wasnt actually Guilliman
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Nice theory! There is however a slight oversight. The Ultrasmurfs would immediately recognize the deception when they notice the lackluster pace of paperwork being done.
@@MrTaurenMoo Maybe lion does know. Think about this. What if the entire alpha legion's "turn" was actually big E's direct orders. Perhaps he shared it with someone like Lion, who was Horus only true counter-part and one of the best strategist. And the two of them sent the alpha legion to chaos, to run a shadow campaign of subtle manipulation, sabartoge. Because the alpha legion does tend to dick over chaos at every and any opportunity. So perhaps Alpharius finally wanted to return after seeing things were NOT going well. But knew he couldn't just appear, as the people who could potentially explain, were all gone. So he started to make preperations to return. I think guiliman might've even legitimately died to Fulgrim. And that became the most obvious way in. So he modified the statis field himself, hit the snooze button and took a nap until the most desperate hours. Than and only than (And convient very long into the future where few would recognize him) awoke, to begin the long task of rebuilding the imperium. Starting with trying to throw away the codex astartes that was against his father's wishes. Maybe when he and lion met...Lion realized that Alpharius had returned to the fold, understanding he couldn't just throw off the cloak. And that "guiliman" as a figure head was far too important. A touching moment for alpharius where someone he knew and knew his true efforts and struggles for the long war, was re-united with him. I dunno. The theory could work. 100% the writters aren't doing this, but it's a very interesting idea. That this was all set into motion by BIG E, and some of the loyalist primarchs. Perhaps Dorn, guliman and other's were brought up to speed after the heresy's conclusion. In a private meeting. Cause if big E did that, Dorn would likely be involved and likely have orders to eventually bring the other's to speed. As to avoid any "accidents" like actually killing the loyalist sleeper primarchs. Maybe alpharius was under cover so deep her was psycho-indoctrinated to believe he was chaos until the x time, or x condition met. And it was met around the time guiliman died. You could absolutely make this work. And I'm sure we could make a fan-made series about it that's really neat and thought provoking. Something warhammer hasn't been in a while. Also. Might be my personal bias here since I greatly dislike Girlyman Rowboat, and love the Alpha legion. But it'd be nice if the horus heresy saw some actually brilliant plays by big E. Where he was genuinely setting the board, including sending his special sleepers to chaos. Because don't you find it strange that the legion DESIGNED for infiltration, spying, this sort of thing just openly joins chaos? I think it was always a play by big E that has actually continued to f*ck chaos over 10,000 years later. Big E's last "W" move.
Primaris are bigger than standard marines. Alpha Legionnaires are noted to be bigger on average than other standard marines and are known for infiltrating loyalists for their own purposes. The Legion stole the data on the Primarch project the Emperor gave Corax to rebuild his legion after the Dropsite Massacre, the results of which produced marines that were bigger, faster, and stronger than a normal space marine. The Alpha Legion developed special bolters and ammo prior to the Heresy, intended to be stronger and more penetrating than standard bolter ammo. Primaris bolters at release were mechanically stronger than firstborn bolters. Primaris marines make up well over 50 percent of all loyalist marines in existence, and every month more are made and they are engaged on every front and embedded in functionally every sizable battle force. Make of all of this as you will.
If I remember (no source!) but also the Alpha legion the most purest geneseed! all working organs, with the possibility of a flaw that of making plans overly complicated.
@@4_am I don't know if they were strictly the *most* pure, but I do vaguely remember reading in a couple of different things that they were definitely up there alongside the likes of pre Heresy Iron Warriors and the Ultramarines. Like, top 5 purest (author dependent of course)
I HAD THIS THOUGHT A FEW WEEKS AGO!!!! Alpharius is scouring the galaxy for where he stashed the REAL Roboute, so that he can switch back and stop having to carry the whole galaxy on his shoulders.
Alpharius is already confirmed to be condemned to be tortured in The Warp's inferno for resorting to his own hubris at betraying Emperor of Mankind The good and living one is Omegon, but his chaos-uncorrupted loyalist elements are already a minority within the renegade of traitors of Alpha Legion (which said legion is already thrown into scrutiny and obscurity by 40th Millennium, since even current Alpha Legion members doesn't take claim of "I am Alpharius" seriously)
@@ohamatchhams That last point about the 'I am Alpharius' thing also stems from the considerable "generational" divide in the post-Heresy Alpha Legion warbands. A considerable amount of the AL's numbers in present day 40k are comprised of Post-Heresy recruits who, due to the splintered nature of the Legion, the sheer disparity in their origins and all manner of reasons for turning renegade in the first place were never likely to assimilated into the AL's culture. This was also certainly not helped by how the Heresy-era Legionnaires don't really seem to want to interact with their younger cousins all that much or how the root of that culture, the twin Primarchs, are complete absentee's.
Considering he had his own empire, its possible he saw the coming failure and decided to try and preserve his own little hatch of himanity in Ultramar, but later realizes he needs BIG E and the astronomicon so he just... sets himself up to be the next Horus but on BIG E's side.
I think this is the most plausible answer. Guillemon sees himself as the Imperiums last chance so instead of working with, and trusting, the other primarchs he works to preserve his territory. Which also makes sense why he’d give out Primaris marines, so he isn’t accused of breaking the very codex he made. Makes since too why he’d be cool with it taking so long because he needed time to pass to be able to do all that without being held accountable
As an Alpha Legionaire i deny this theory, my father, alpharius, by the Great Horned Rat blessed be his name, died in that battle and we mourn him so much... all the time really. The event was harrowing for us. Still is even. Roboute is such a great leader, Abaddon could never hope to compare, atleast as long as no one were to disobey and undermine Guillimans leadership.
I'm all for daring plot twists, but I can't help but worry for the tabletop implications if Guilliman were to be proven a fraud. Is his model going to be sent to Legends? Everyone will hate that.
Except Alpharius and Omegon are both brothers of the Lion and for that matter Guiliman... it would make for an awesome plot twist though, Primaris are traitors now, and Firstborn Legends become the new poster boys for the Imperium!
I'm with the Occam's razor on this. Sadly, too much bad writing currently for any theory being deeper than a damp pavement, except by pure coincidence. That said, how about this - what if the Alpha Legion hydra symbol has three heads because their primarchs weren't twins, but... triplets...?
@@valx7586 Genefather was great. Most books are fine. My personal issue is the stalling of milling off of popular, great stories. Dan Abnett's sequel to Pariah is still being postponed, ADB Abaddon series seems to have dropped off the edge of the earth... Horus heresy and siege of terra were good overall, but full of flipflop plotlines that went nowhere, looking at you Erda, Abyss, Pythos...
Alternate theory: Cawl picked up the Raven Guard raptor project a thousand years ago or so and basically reverse engineered Thunder Warriors. Guilliman accepted his help out of desperation and made up this story about Cawl following his orders to quell accusations of heresy.
Unfortunately, Chairon in Space Marine 2 (which GW has declared cannon for during the 4th Tyranic War) is a Primaris who was a child on Calth when the Word Bearers attacked, survived, and was picked up by Cawl as one of the original Primaris, where he spent 10,000 years on ice. So, for the project to only be 1,000 years old, there needs to be some reason to have kept the various candidate kids on ice for 9,000 years before that.
Once upon a time, a Games Workshop writer gave up trying to sort out the myriad of convulted continuity issues of 40K lore, took a rather unhealthy glug of whiskey and declared that all 40K history is either censored, by inaccurate and unreliable narrators, lost to time and forgetting or straight up Imperium propaganda... and unknowingly gave GW an excuse for retcons for decades to come.
The main problem is that alpharius and Omegon are the shortest of the Primarches, noted to be as tall as regular marines. Meanwhile Bobby G is taller than even a Primaris Marine.
Big G can't take his armor off ya doof. Whose to say it's not some big mech suit like the gray knight baby stroller and he's just inside it. All they need to see is his head.
The biggest hole I see is that, if Guilliman died on Eskador, how was he impersonated for so long in front of sons who had known and fought alongside him. Maybe it was all cunning warp craft just long enough to encounter Fulgrim... Or maybe neither Primarch died on Eskador. There are big hints in some short stories that Omegon and Alpharius may not even be on the same page regarding the heresy, so what if the battle on Eskador was a cover for one of them coming in from the cold. The returned twin may have worked with Guillman on the swap out as a contingency plan, or taken matters into their own hands after Guilliman was wounded. If the Guilliman who stood before the Emperor was a fake, I doubt he would have walked out of that room if he was a true heretic. But if he's a useful tool... well, nothing the Emperor loves more than a useful tool... except Mal.
I remember a somewhat similar theory that Omegron and Guilliman were who clashed there, and Guilliman "Killed" Omegron and secretly recruited him (since he and Alpharius had differing opinions on the Heresy) and Omegron became the Chapter Master of the Omega Marines. A chapter who sort of appeared out of nowhere, their Chapter Master has a background that doesn't fit, is larger than the marines around him, and the Omega symbol is prevalent and even in the name. Not sure which theory I prefer, but as an Alpha Legion main, I hope it's one of them!
You say that a Chaptermaster doesn't have photographic memory which is wrong. Space Marines have eidetic memory, which is basically photographic memory, but with everything else.
That's true, however Space Marines can live indefinitely, but they often die in battle so they don't live for too long, so in the end the last Space Marines who saw Guilliman face would be dead by when he return, except for maybe the Dreadnoughts who are know for being really ancient.
This is an interesting theory and i loved the video, but I do think its false for a few reasons. For one, Alpharius is far too short to pose as Guilliman. Part of the reason Alpha legionaries could pretend to be their Primarch was due to how short the two were. While it could have been that the Armor of Fate could enhance his height this wouldnt work for the times Guilliman has removed it. Or the fact that he sought out Eldrad to ask if it was possible to leave the armor at all. If the armor was part of his disguise Alpharius would have no reason to reach out to Eldrad for this reason nor would he likely want to bring an Aeldari (Natase) representative onto his council. Especially since the Eldar would be more likely to notice such things compared to mortal humans and even certain Astartes. (Eldar senses being more heightened compared to humans and the ability to sense souls and even read minds and emotions would be too much of a risk to actively have around of he intended to fool people) As for the Codex Astartes: Nobody ever said Guilliman was perfect and right about everything. He simply didnt want another Horus Heresy happening. Obviously, he didnt intend for one chapter of marines to battle a Demon Primarch and their legion. He likely had full intentions to have several chapters go against his traitorous brothers. With the support of the hardest men and women in the galaxy, the Militarum. Your explanation of the Emperors meeting with Guilliman still doesnt make sense as even at the end, he still calls him Guilliman. There isn't really a convincing reason one could give as to why the Emperor would still play into the charade here since its just the two of them. Maybe he didnt want Mortarion seeing this memory in the future but even that doesnt make sense as theres no risk to that at all since no Imperial citizen would ever listen to or believe a word from his mouth. As for the discrepancy between Dorn or Guilliman killing Alpharius, the most likely answer is Dorn ACTUALLY killed him, and Guilliman was just tricked by a Legionary disguised as him. After all, Guilliman never saw a primarch die, so he isn't aware of the telltale signs of this like the bright flash of light like with Ferrus when he died. Basically, the most simple answer is usually the correct one. Still, your video was interesting, and the theory does definitely makes for a cool what-if scenario.
Dante might not've visited the shrine but the Ultramarines are in and out of there all the time. They might only live around 4 or 5 centuries but you'd think one of their photographic memories would've spotted the tiny changes with that many chances
not really. "That was not my brother [guilliman]" my brother meaning guilliman specifically. gman is his brother, and if its not gman, then its not his brother
Obviously it is all up to the writers to waffle whatever they want at the end of the day. But I'm still convinced it would simply be that during the Heresy Rowboat was convinced he would have to run the imperium on his own (or at least at the head of his brothers) given the turning / unreliability of his other brothers to not simply pursue their own goals at all times and he already had experience running galactic empires well beyond any of his brothers. As such, he got Cawl to make crap that would only answer to him on inception; but he would then be able to pass along to respective Primarch's/chapters depending on which of his brothers were still around or could be trusted at a given time. - Plus I would assume he saw how crazy the Imperium was becoming during/post heresy and maybe wanted to be able to ensure that he could perform a Coup should it be needed. TDLR: He is his fathers son, semi convinced he's the best man for the job and has to ensure he can control the Imperium when he needs to.
I feel like Lion El Johnson would immediately spot if Roboute Guilliman wasn't the real Roboute Guilliman. Also Guilliman would have probably not survived a meeting with the Emperor on the Golden Throne unless he wasn't the real Guilliman .
I mean Johnson was notoriously fooled by Alpharius before, it can be done. Yeah i know Dorn instantly saw throw Alpharius's stuff, but that was some Matt Ward caliber favoritism in that novel.
@@aguspuig6615Well Dorn was a blank right? I mean alpharius/omegon shenanigans work just because of some psyker habilities that they control but Dorn is not affected by psykers so it makes sense in a way, no?
I think its way more likely that Big G just planned to take control of the legions by himself or was called thief by having his father's sword and/or the primaris and the control that was sipposed to be for the council. He prettu much is setting himself to be the emperor. That would qualify him for that. That Guiliman repetition is like someone who know that his son was naughty and wanders what to do with him.
The doors of Grimdark were opened. Not the literal doors to the building, most of which were closed, but evil doors, dark doors, doors to the beyond. Doors that were hard to shut because they were abstract and didn't have handles. They were more like portals, really. From this day on, I'd have to fight these forces of darkness . . . and deal with the burden of day-to-day admin.
Omegon actually first appears under VERY strange circumstances, alone on a planet during the Rangdan Xenocides... right after the Dark Angels supposedly wiped out one of those two missing legions... in a campaign that is itself highly [REDACTED]... You know, one of the legions that the Ultramarines supposedly also absorbed elements from... And let's not forget that the Alpha Legion apparently had enough gene-splicing knowledge to mess up the Raven Gaurd's attempted new generation of aspirants. Is Omegon even actually Alpharius' twin? Or is he "something else", manipulating the entire system, the ultimate long game of replacing Guilliman and taking over the imperium?
Dammit I fell into the rabbit hole that the "titanic" that sank wasn't the "titanic" but her sister ship the "Olympia". Dragged myself out of that rabbit hole and been clean from conspiracies for a few years....one wrong youtube video later....and I am back down the fooking rabbit hole. There goes my 5 year clean chip.....
18:00 Space Marines actually generally are described to have eidetic to near-photographic memory, so even if Dante wouldn't notice a change, it's hard to believe a Veteran Ultramarine, with virtually unlimited access to Guiliman's shrine over the course of possibly over 500 years, possibly having extremely good image recall abilities, wouldn't notice what should be a static image of his gene-father changing, even minutely. That is to say, it should have come up enough times for the Ultramarines to at least have a superstition about seeing changes in Guilliman's face and wounds.
8:11 - I'm no lore expert, but if Guilliman knew that Vulkan was a Perpetual, he'd probably realise that freezing him in stasis would be a waste of his potential! As for the other Primarchs, though, it's a good point ... I suppose he might have thought Leman Russ would have scorned such a backup plan, maybe?
Honestly, I’ve hust been running with the theory that since Eldar sorcery was involved in his “resurrection”, that he’s actually some spirit stone amalgamation stomping about in Guilliman’s body. Explains the hyper-specislization of Primaris units - they’re basically aspect marines.
The specialisation of primaris is more similar to the structure of space marine legions A striking scorpion doesn’t change to being a warp spider if his starch says he should A primaris marine can presumably be deployed with whatever gear he’s assigned I hate primaris and how they copy heresy legions, but your theory uses a false equivalency.
Was referring mainly to the degree of specialization for each squad type’s role as opposed to the more mixed equipment and roles of squads in battle, not the culture surrounding dedication to a particular method of warfare between conflicts.
I feel like it would just be easier for Alpharius/Omegon to just use their powers that let them dictate how others perceive them to disguise themselves rather than just using the passage to of to make people forget what Guilliman looks like
But Guilliman split up the legions before the duel on Eskrador, right? So saying there was a switch would not fix any "the codex doesn't make sense" issues, it would actually make them worse. Since before, the question of the Chaos legions not playing by the same rules could be explained by Guilliman building a loophole in for himself, whereas now there's no such defense. "Guilliman being a bit of a bastard really" just kind of already sufficiently explains everything and injecting Alpharius into it doesn't actually add any explanatory power. It's not clear what Alpharius' motive even is with this argument.
guilliman being the real deal seems to be just fact due to him meeting the emperor magnus and having that whole moment with mortarion even when he met eldrad, if these ppl didnt notice anything then well
Thing that occurs to me as the only counter argument I can think of is this: The Emperor is described as looking like Gulliman "As a prisoner does a rasp." Referring to a file, a tool to escape imprisonment. Would the Emperor care if it was, say, Omegon standing there? A tool is a tool. But that's not a solid counter at all, so I'm pretty sure GW intends him to be the real deal.
Or it could have just been another attempt at Imperium Secundus that got messed up after being stabbed and put on ice for 10 000 years. That would be a better explanation and make more sense.
I've had the thought that Guilliman was dead for years. But my version revolves around the 4th edition Battle for Macragge. When Hive Fleet Behemoth reached Macragge, made landfall and fought all over the planet. In the story in my old 4th edition tyranid codex, the defenders got pushed back to the polar fortresses where the outer defenses got overrun, with the Southern Polar FOrtress having been breeched all the way into the inner sanctum where the last members of the First Company all died, fighting back to back. Well... Robute wasn't in the Polar Fortresses. He was in Hera. Hera isnt mentioned at all in that text, but I always assumed that a juicy target such as Guilliman would glow like a small beacon for the Hive, even if dead/stasis/comatose whatever... The Lion dreamed up an entire realm in the warp while he was sleeping. Surely the Tyranids knew he was there. I... kinda just thought the current Guilliman to be a Genestealer. With most of the leadership of Ultramar being Genestealers by now.
Disparity between new and old 40K lore? Another theory.. hear me out. One (the old ) lore was written by someone who loved writing the lore and creating a deep rich background, the other… is written by a toddler with a crayon to sell new models
Conspiracy view: GW is moving the plot along to shoot for an Age of Sigmar style reset on the 40k universe with a mass revamp of rules, fluff, and, of course, models.
You're correct, except they did that at the beginning of 8th. It was a completely different game before that with different lore and rules and Primaris were part of it
@@idkwmytuniyeah they kind of learned their lesson with fantasy end times and changed everything without actually killing the game. But I still think that they are aiming for the hard reboot, just not so sudden. The coming back of the primarchs leads me to believe that GW is preparing us for a great cataclysmic event like ressurection of the emperor who will destroy the whole galaxy and rebuild it.
@@DzikiWaclaw They've accomplished the reboot, that's why there are so many Primarchs in the first place. 40k is already a completely different setting now
A buried copy of a Vox recording between a Alpha marine mocking a respected high Inquisitor-Lord gets unearthed sending the Ordo Heredicus into a frenzy trying to bury it again.... the few scant seconds of it is simply; "laughter. Guilliman isn't Guilliman and you don't even know. You know... we've always been here, we never left but you never got why. Hmm, I expect by days end my pardon will be from sources that even you can't question and I'll simply walk out of here. Simply put you are my puppet little Inquisitor and there is nothing you can do about it."
I enjoy very much, that you not only talk, but Act before the camera. Makes it much more personal then constant art with voiceover, I feel like a crazy uncle is telling me a tale or sth haha
Hang on, Alpharius IS Lion El'Johnson's brother isn't he? He'd have to say, "That was not the one of my brothers I had thought it was going to be going into the meeting. It was a different one of my brothers." Just as catchy.
Stasis devises were rare but not so rare that the Ultramarines wouldn't have one on hand. I mean the Space Wolves had and still have stasis grenades. Half of the dark cells on Terra are stasis cells. When your entire theory rests on such a flawed assumption I am sorry to say its building a theory on quicksand.
so instead of saying we will make marines bigger, they introduced them as a new faction in the lore and opened a shit-ton of plot holes to justify their existence... BRUH
Hate to break it to ya but if you go back to the very beginning of 40k lore it's nothing but plot holes and retcons. Doesn't mean it's bad but that's the reality of 40k.
@@adepressedcatwithabadnicot246 early 40k is suspended because it's purely a setting. They seem determined to have a linear moving story now and it deserves criticism.
@@Splozy nah man things change primarchs use to not exist, ultramarines danced, and space marines were knuckle draggers. And it will change again and again and again. It's how the setting and hobby has lasted this long.
@@adepressedcatwithabadnicot246 I read old books and while they changed stuff, it was more organic, building upon previous work, first it was the warmaster, then he was named Horus, then the primarchs where named, then their stories developed, etc. and some stuff was dropped out of the canon I don't mind change, if is dobe subtlety Primarchs are weird in that they jammed in a time travel story that comes out of nowhere and that the whole point was to establish that the new toys are bigger and have new armor. I know they took the chance to milk books and stuff out of it, but storywise it isn't even good. I am quite new to the setting and hearing the firstborn in the great work felt wrong man, "we are old, we suck, we must go and leave the figth to the primaris which are bigger and have shiny toys and are really cool, buy them now" c'mon man! To this day I still think, BRUH, why?
An example of GW writing quality: the new Primaris tanks are hover tech, but are stated instead of lifting the machine, they push down on the ground and crush anything they move over. I believe it is also stated that they can move over water. What happens when you push down on water? It moves out of the way, and you go down into it. Therefore Primaris hover tanks sink when moving over water.
Your theory is clever and interesting so modern GW would absolutely never allow anything like that. It's all about good guys in blue armor who shoot the evil aliens and save the day.
I quit between 4th-7th edition. When I came back and looked at the promostuff, my initial thought on seeing (what I now know to be) Gulliman, was 'That's a particularly fancy Ultramarine', naively believing that GW wouldn't have done the unthinkable and released a primarch. I don't think Disney has bought GW, but GW is Disney now nonetheless.
Now that I think about it, this does explain why I can smell your feet while sitting in your attic. And if you don't have an attic then I don't know whose house I'm in.
This is not at all where I thought the video was going. Great stuff. 40k lore feels like a collection of scrap notes and oral histories and my favorite thing about it is you have so much room to play with the mysteries and gaping plot holes.
If well done it would be a good twist. However as I get older I realize more and more that the official stories tend to be worse than the good fan ones.
I was always surprised that Warhammer never showed up in Peep Show. Mark talked about being subscribed to White Dwarf, he had Fantasy Model Builder hidden in his closet, and he was obsessed with war and tactics.
I would point out mind that the "traitor" part of the interaction with the Emperor is most likely a reference to Imperium Secundus, which again might be likely to rear it's head as a point of political intrigue - in particular to drive a wedge between the returned primarchs and the Ecclesiarchy.
I like the theory but what’s the explanation for the beginning of dark imperium where we get guilliman’s direct POV of his death and hear about his past relationships with the marines present as he dies?
me five seconds in: "Yeah, I've been saying from day 1, Guilleman is dead, that's the surviving member of the greatest pop-folk duo in all of the imperium Alpharius or Omegon" edit: *15 minutes later* Yup. We are in agreement (let's see how Far we are in agreement!) Yup, pretty much exactly my thoughts (although I hadn't considered the Timelapse Projection As Healing angle and had just gone with "The Alpha Legion Have Explicitly Done Plastic Surgery To Flawlessly Impersonate People In The Past" (there's a short story in one of the collections, can't remember which off the top of my head, that has one replacing the inquisitor that has been tracking him)
I'm not convinced, because the Primaris is a Guilliman's plan to revel and sedece from the Imperium but after waking up he found how fucked things were and had to improvise.
Hooray, im not crazy, I've seen this ressurection and primaris 'upgrade' with Belisarius very into necrons and eldar to 'advance the Emperor's design' is very hinting that everything can turn very bad for those who feel okay with Primarch (a weapon) being brought back by Aeldary sorcery.
Added the religious side of the brought back Primarch (I know I know he said he reconsiders things not totally went nun) makes things even more suspicious, as he definitely knows the consequences of faith, being the executioner on some planet with temples and believers back then.
I'm at 14:31 and you've just said "This is from 2003..." and I think I've spotted where the continuity difficulties set in. They are easily resolved if you ignore all lore material added after 1998. Problem solved.
RG split the legions to make them less monolithic in the hopes of getting GW lore fans to occasionally talk about a faction other than fucking Space Marines. It did not succeed.
i thought they where spilt up so space marine fanboys could have more space marine stuff to obsess over without having to think of anything outside of space marines.
As a big fan of Roboute, I now see him with different eyes than I ever imagined. And yes, I notice some subtle changes in his form, but even so, changes in behavior and Guilliman's decisions in recent stories are so drastic that they could suggest that it is not really him, which is intriguing to say the least.
He's almost mirroring what his genedaddy did, biding time to theoretically favor himself, not necessarily mankind. Guilly is just a more imperfect bastard than big E.
I just got to give props to you as a content creator. I have been binging your videos whilst painting minis all morning and not stopped laughing easily my favourite 40k channel!
"That was not my brother" would be great way for series to go ahead, but instead of alpharius you could make Cawl scheming around and possibly cloning or remaking Guilliman as a fake primarch, he certainly benefits from that.
Id like to point out something in new 40k lore about the emperor. He threw away a ton of his emotions before fighting horus, these emotions were strong enough that he was seconds away from becoming a chaos god, he cast these emotions away but they were never destroyed and seemingly werent consumed. Since they came from the emperor its holy possible these emotions eventually manifested into the "god emperor" warp being whos not actually the emperor of mankind. Its wholly possible that being was the one that resurrected guilluman and the skeleton on the throne is just that, a mostly if not entirely dead corpse.
This could work really well as a series, but the pushback would be nightmarish. Maybe Roboute surviving being a plot of the Alpha Legion could be a funny reveal when they become the next big bad.
I like the idea and I'd love for that concept to be executed with some other characters, but I don't think it works in this case. The first problem is, that Alpharius and Omegon were always smaller and less awesome as far as primarchs go, to the point where they could be mixed up with space marines, so there would be a noticeable difference to depictions of Guilliman, as well as equipment, etc. Secondly, there are a few people (like Fallen, Dreadnoughts, etc.) left that either lived since 30k or were flung through time to 40k and have met Guilliman (in 30k). Those would recognize him in 40k, making the whole plan far too risky to attempt. There are also pict casters and considering Guilliman was a primarch, leader of a legion, ruler of his own mini empire, and regent of the empire, there would be plenty of pictures of him to compare his current self to. The strongest bit of evidence, though, is what happens after Guilliman's resurrection. After he cuts through a bunch of traitor astartes, he takes command of the planetary defence effort and shows strategic brilliance that makes the previous Ultramarines leadership look mediocre. Then, when fighting his way through the system and sector, he does that again and again, with strategy as well as logistics. Alpharius does not have those abilities. That's the reason, the Emperor calls Guilliman his last hope, he is the only primarch who can actually save the Imperium, rather than just defend it or lead armies to defeat enemies.
In addition: Dante should absolutely recognize any change, as marines have eidetic memory (or did that change after the heresy?) and there are plenty heresy-era recruits in the Primaris, who would also recognize him. Nontheless: Booby G could very well be dead, as he had been slain by Mortarion and is now a Husk on the lifestrings of Big E himself, his mind implying he's still Bobby G while Big E took over the steering wheel. Comparable to Lotara Sarrin in the third End and the Dead, seeing the mutated body of herself sitting on the throne of the concqueror and just then realizing she was long dead.
Recently there was an Alpha Legion book where at 5hr end an ultramarine adjacent space marine was actually a sleeper agent and was deactivated at the end by a fellow Alpha Legion marine eith a codeword. He had 200 years of service with the infiltrated chapter.
I really did enjoy this theory. Also, that face transition was pure gold. I wouldn't put anything past Alpharius. It might not be "true", but it is a fun idea.
Might as well to argue that Guilliman was dead physically but rebirthed to be the "Captain" of Legion of The Damned's semi-official Imperial Daemons Which somewhat still fits Majorkill theory about Primarchs' souls being of lesser warp gods that are powerful on their own (to the point of their individual presence can bend destiny in both Immaterium and Materium, provided they're more adjusted with having positive parental figures and developing self-esteem, unlike Primarch of the Night Lords legion) and independent from Chaos or any factions of warp gods' pantheon in The Warp
That would be an interesting plot twist, but unfortunately I think it’s more like Guilliman is Guilliman, and buy Primaris stuff.. because. The whole conception of them has been a shambles for the most part, but I like the creative way you’ve used that botch job to come up with this theory. Oh, and isn’t Alpharius hanging around with someone in the Bequin book series? I mean, it can definitely not be him, but who knows. I like the theory that he could also be Cypher, but that probably doesn’t have much backing it.
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What about the primarch aura?
these theories are fantastic, BUT I would really like if you linked to or showed off on screen where you got the sources from, which books is this lore from?
@@OldenDemon vpn sponsorships hmm
honestly what outs Guilliman out as an impostor is his meeting with the high lords of Terra, they are at Terra, you know, the massive psychic realm of the Emperor, with the Custodes lurking around making sure no one commits treason, there should be secret codes, secret hand signals, dark age relics, special forms and even mannerisms to make sure no one can mimic his way to the highest seat of goverment, what outs Guilliman as an impostor is that the Custodes dont inmediatly crush the High Lords entire body, souls, descendants and anyone even slightly related to them when their plot to overthrow Guilliman started, thats because it wasnt treason, it wasnt treason because Guilliman's rule wouldnt be legitimate, and the only way his rule wouldnt be legitimate is if he wasnt actually Guilliman
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Nice theory! There is however a slight oversight. The Ultrasmurfs would immediately recognize the deception when they notice the lackluster pace of paperwork being done.
"These spreadsheets are far too small!" 😮
👍And that's a fact!
I would of gone with the Lion looking at the imposter and saying, "That's not my brother, kill him"
@@MrTaurenMoo Maybe lion does know. Think about this. What if the entire alpha legion's "turn" was actually big E's direct orders. Perhaps he shared it with someone like Lion, who was Horus only true counter-part and one of the best strategist. And the two of them sent the alpha legion to chaos, to run a shadow campaign of subtle manipulation, sabartoge. Because the alpha legion does tend to dick over chaos at every and any opportunity. So perhaps Alpharius finally wanted to return after seeing things were NOT going well. But knew he couldn't just appear, as the people who could potentially explain, were all gone.
So he started to make preperations to return. I think guiliman might've even legitimately died to Fulgrim. And that became the most obvious way in. So he modified the statis field himself, hit the snooze button and took a nap until the most desperate hours. Than and only than (And convient very long into the future where few would recognize him) awoke, to begin the long task of rebuilding the imperium. Starting with trying to throw away the codex astartes that was against his father's wishes.
Maybe when he and lion met...Lion realized that Alpharius had returned to the fold, understanding he couldn't just throw off the cloak. And that "guiliman" as a figure head was far too important. A touching moment for alpharius where someone he knew and knew his true efforts and struggles for the long war, was re-united with him.
I dunno. The theory could work. 100% the writters aren't doing this, but it's a very interesting idea. That this was all set into motion by BIG E, and some of the loyalist primarchs. Perhaps Dorn, guliman and other's were brought up to speed after the heresy's conclusion. In a private meeting. Cause if big E did that, Dorn would likely be involved and likely have orders to eventually bring the other's to speed. As to avoid any "accidents" like actually killing the loyalist sleeper primarchs. Maybe alpharius was under cover so deep her was psycho-indoctrinated to believe he was chaos until the x time, or x condition met. And it was met around the time guiliman died. You could absolutely make this work. And I'm sure we could make a fan-made series about it that's really neat and thought provoking. Something warhammer hasn't been in a while.
Also. Might be my personal bias here since I greatly dislike Girlyman Rowboat, and love the Alpha legion. But it'd be nice if the horus heresy saw some actually brilliant plays by big E. Where he was genuinely setting the board, including sending his special sleepers to chaos. Because don't you find it strange that the legion DESIGNED for infiltration, spying, this sort of thing just openly joins chaos? I think it was always a play by big E that has actually continued to f*ck chaos over 10,000 years later. Big E's last "W" move.
@@MrTaurenMoo Unless the Lion had fallen too ...
It might explain why the Primaris units can't cope with mixed loadouts. Alpharius is still using Heresy army lists.
I've got a conspiracy theory that Olden Demon is actually just 3 dachshunds in a trench-coat with some very convincing human makeup applied.
It's not that convincing 😋
That's a theory I can get behind.
How do I sign up for your news letter?
It's heavily implied by the text.
"My last tool. My last hope."
Who is the last Primarch? Omegon.
"Its.... just omegon?"
"Always was kid"
holy shit
Oh no.
Punished 'Venom' Omegon!
"I'm Robute, and you are too..." 👊👹
@@aquavitae3824 Are you feeling numb?
Primaris are bigger than standard marines. Alpha Legionnaires are noted to be bigger on average than other standard marines and are known for infiltrating loyalists for their own purposes. The Legion stole the data on the Primarch project the Emperor gave Corax to rebuild his legion after the Dropsite Massacre, the results of which produced marines that were bigger, faster, and stronger than a normal space marine. The Alpha Legion developed special bolters and ammo prior to the Heresy, intended to be stronger and more penetrating than standard bolter ammo. Primaris bolters at release were mechanically stronger than firstborn bolters.
Primaris marines make up well over 50 percent of all loyalist marines in existence, and every month more are made and they are engaged on every front and embedded in functionally every sizable battle force.
Make of all of this as you will.
Now that’s a thought 🤔
If I remember (no source!) but also the Alpha legion the most purest geneseed! all working organs, with the possibility of a flaw that of making plans overly complicated.
@@4_am I don't know if they were strictly the *most* pure, but I do vaguely remember reading in a couple of different things that they were definitely up there alongside the likes of pre Heresy Iron Warriors and the Ultramarines. Like, top 5 purest (author dependent of course)
Games workshop would never be that based.
"I hereby reorganize this Imperium into the First Galactic Empire!!! For a safe and secure society!!!" - Chancellor Guillotine
I HAD THIS THOUGHT A FEW WEEKS AGO!!!! Alpharius is scouring the galaxy for where he stashed the REAL Roboute, so that he can switch back and stop having to carry the whole galaxy on his shoulders.
Alpharius is already confirmed to be condemned to be tortured in The Warp's inferno for resorting to his own hubris at betraying Emperor of Mankind
The good and living one is Omegon, but his chaos-uncorrupted loyalist elements are already a minority within the renegade of traitors of Alpha Legion (which said legion is already thrown into scrutiny and obscurity by 40th Millennium, since even current Alpha Legion members doesn't take claim of "I am Alpharius" seriously)
@@ohamatchhams That last point about the 'I am Alpharius' thing also stems from the considerable "generational" divide in the post-Heresy Alpha Legion warbands. A considerable amount of the AL's numbers in present day 40k are comprised of Post-Heresy recruits who, due to the splintered nature of the Legion, the sheer disparity in their origins and all manner of reasons for turning renegade in the first place were never likely to assimilated into the AL's culture. This was also certainly not helped by how the Heresy-era Legionnaires don't really seem to want to interact with their younger cousins all that much or how the root of that culture, the twin Primarchs, are complete absentee's.
Have you checked the Blood Ravens reliquarey? Checked again.
Guilliman being super mean and weird out of nowhere and suddenly healing chaos wounds honestly feels more like Emperor possession than anything else
In 30k he had gotten angry , spiteful and had lost his cool when lugar betrayed him so he has been cable of it
@@basically_spooky1061 I mean, if I had to deal with lorgar I’d get pretty mean too!
@@Ronald-qs3ke swear can’t fault him for that
Won't hold a match to the theory of: The Emperor is only as strong as he was/is because the Orks think he's "dead ard"
Considering he had his own empire, its possible he saw the coming failure and decided to try and preserve his own little hatch of himanity in Ultramar, but later realizes he needs BIG E and the astronomicon so he just... sets himself up to be the next Horus but on BIG E's side.
I think this is the most plausible answer. Guillemon sees himself as the Imperiums last chance so instead of working with, and trusting, the other primarchs he works to preserve his territory. Which also makes sense why he’d give out Primaris marines, so he isn’t accused of breaking the very codex he made. Makes since too why he’d be cool with it taking so long because he needed time to pass to be able to do all that without being held accountable
As an Alpha Legionaire i deny this theory, my father, alpharius, by the Great Horned Rat blessed be his name, died in that battle and we mourn him so much... all the time really. The event was harrowing for us. Still is even.
Roboute is such a great leader, Abaddon could never hope to compare, atleast as long as no one were to disobey and undermine Guillimans leadership.
That is what an alpha leggionaire would say if gulliman was actually dead
Ok, that may be
But where's omegon
Are you not Alpharius yourself?
“That… was not my brother.”
Not gonna lie that’s a Starwars level epic family relations plot twist..
..there’s no way modern GW would have the balls.
Or the talent to make it work.
I'm all for daring plot twists, but I can't help but worry for the tabletop implications if Guilliman were to be proven a fraud. Is his model going to be sent to Legends? Everyone will hate that.
Except Alpharius and Omegon are both brothers of the Lion and for that matter Guiliman... it would make for an awesome plot twist though, Primaris are traitors now, and Firstborn Legends become the new poster boys for the Imperium!
@@donnylurch4207Calgar is still a tabletop unit, and the real Calgar died a long time ago.
Where is this quote from?
I'm with the Occam's razor on this. Sadly, too much bad writing currently for any theory being deeper than a damp pavement, except by pure coincidence.
That said, how about this - what if the Alpha Legion hydra symbol has three heads because their primarchs weren't twins, but... triplets...?
Alpha Legion Triplets (with Bobby G being the 3rd brother) is now my head canon. BRB gonna cause a few aneurysms down the FLGS 🤣
Damn it's really just me that likes the new books 😢
A third sibling... a chameleon... or maybe... a Gammaleon?
@@valx7586 Genefather was great. Most books are fine. My personal issue is the stalling of milling off of popular, great stories. Dan Abnett's sequel to Pariah is still being postponed, ADB Abaddon series seems to have dropped off the edge of the earth... Horus heresy and siege of terra were good overall, but full of flipflop plotlines that went nowhere, looking at you Erda, Abyss, Pythos...
I was thinking about this. In the heresy black books you see a third symbol on the heads which is the sigma symbol
Alternate theory: Cawl picked up the Raven Guard raptor project a thousand years ago or so and basically reverse engineered Thunder Warriors. Guilliman accepted his help out of desperation and made up this story about Cawl following his orders to quell accusations of heresy.
that makes a lot more sense than GW's actual explanation
Unfortunately, Chairon in Space Marine 2 (which GW has declared cannon for during the 4th Tyranic War) is a Primaris who was a child on Calth when the Word Bearers attacked, survived, and was picked up by Cawl as one of the original Primaris, where he spent 10,000 years on ice.
So, for the project to only be 1,000 years old, there needs to be some reason to have kept the various candidate kids on ice for 9,000 years before that.
@@piedpiper1172 That's ok. I'll be retconning that comment of his out of existence along with the Repulsor and the words 'Space Marine'.
@@piedpiper1172 implanted memories
Thunder Warriors are an entirely different tech tree
Once upon a time, a Games Workshop writer gave up trying to sort out the myriad of convulted continuity issues of 40K lore, took a rather unhealthy glug of whiskey and declared that all 40K history is either censored, by inaccurate and unreliable narrators, lost to time and forgetting or straight up Imperium propaganda... and unknowingly gave GW an excuse for retcons for decades to come.
You convinced me at the end with The Lion saying “That was not my Brother”
Did that happen in the book?
when did he say that?
I think he was talkin about angron
It didn’t happen but it would be cool if it did.
Only, it did not happen... Also Alpharius is also Lion's Brother so the line would make no sense...
The main problem is that alpharius and Omegon are the shortest of the Primarches, noted to be as tall as regular marines. Meanwhile Bobby G is taller than even a Primaris Marine.
Big shoes 😄
Big G can't take his armor off ya doof. Whose to say it's not some big mech suit like the gray knight baby stroller and he's just inside it. All they need to see is his head.
He can now, but it took awhile before he could.
That’s not actually true, they were regular sized primarchs but they just had the ability to shrink in peoples perception.
@@kazacoonable yes he can, It was painful at first but now he takes his armor off when he's not in battle
Guilliman is Paul McCartney?!
Edit: You've convinced me. Your theory makes the setting more fun.
The biggest hole I see is that, if Guilliman died on Eskador, how was he impersonated for so long in front of sons who had known and fought alongside him. Maybe it was all cunning warp craft just long enough to encounter Fulgrim... Or maybe neither Primarch died on Eskador. There are big hints in some short stories that Omegon and Alpharius may not even be on the same page regarding the heresy, so what if the battle on Eskador was a cover for one of them coming in from the cold. The returned twin may have worked with Guillman on the swap out as a contingency plan, or taken matters into their own hands after Guilliman was wounded. If the Guilliman who stood before the Emperor was a fake, I doubt he would have walked out of that room if he was a true heretic. But if he's a useful tool... well, nothing the Emperor loves more than a useful tool... except Mal.
I remember a somewhat similar theory that Omegron and Guilliman were who clashed there, and Guilliman "Killed" Omegron and secretly recruited him (since he and Alpharius had differing opinions on the Heresy) and Omegron became the Chapter Master of the Omega Marines.
A chapter who sort of appeared out of nowhere, their Chapter Master has a background that doesn't fit, is larger than the marines around him, and the Omega symbol is prevalent and even in the name.
Not sure which theory I prefer, but as an Alpha Legion main, I hope it's one of them!
This is the most plausible
You say that a Chaptermaster doesn't have photographic memory which is wrong.
Space Marines have eidetic memory, which is basically photographic memory, but with everything else.
As far as i know only some do. But yeah, it is for sure a thing they can have.
That's true, however Space Marines can live indefinitely, but they often die in battle so they don't live for too long, so in the end the last Space Marines who saw Guilliman face would be dead by when he return, except for maybe the Dreadnoughts who are know for being really ancient.
I honestly like this theory alot, it makes a suprising amount of sense despite sounding completely wack.
This is an interesting theory and i loved the video, but I do think its false for a few reasons.
For one, Alpharius is far too short to pose as Guilliman. Part of the reason Alpha legionaries could pretend to be their Primarch was due to how short the two were. While it could have been that the Armor of Fate could enhance his height this wouldnt work for the times Guilliman has removed it. Or the fact that he sought out Eldrad to ask if it was possible to leave the armor at all. If the armor was part of his disguise Alpharius would have no reason to reach out to Eldrad for this reason nor would he likely want to bring an Aeldari (Natase) representative onto his council. Especially since the Eldar would be more likely to notice such things compared to mortal humans and even certain Astartes. (Eldar senses being more heightened compared to humans and the ability to sense souls and even read minds and emotions would be too much of a risk to actively have around of he intended to fool people)
As for the Codex Astartes: Nobody ever said Guilliman was perfect and right about everything. He simply didnt want another Horus Heresy happening. Obviously, he didnt intend for one chapter of marines to battle a Demon Primarch and their legion. He likely had full intentions to have several chapters go against his traitorous brothers. With the support of the hardest men and women in the galaxy, the Militarum.
Your explanation of the Emperors meeting with Guilliman still doesnt make sense as even at the end, he still calls him Guilliman. There isn't really a convincing reason one could give as to why the Emperor would still play into the charade here since its just the two of them. Maybe he didnt want Mortarion seeing this memory in the future but even that doesnt make sense as theres no risk to that at all since no Imperial citizen would ever listen to or believe a word from his mouth.
As for the discrepancy between Dorn or Guilliman killing Alpharius, the most likely answer is Dorn ACTUALLY killed him, and Guilliman was just tricked by a Legionary disguised as him. After all, Guilliman never saw a primarch die, so he isn't aware of the telltale signs of this like the bright flash of light like with Ferrus when he died.
Basically, the most simple answer is usually the correct one. Still, your video was interesting, and the theory does definitely makes for a cool what-if scenario.
Dante 100% has a photographic memory, all space marines do. But its also very unlikely he would have visited Guiliman's shrine so its not a debunk
Dante might not've visited the shrine but the Ultramarines are in and out of there all the time. They might only live around 4 or 5 centuries but you'd think one of their photographic memories would've spotted the tiny changes with that many chances
if I remember correctly Dante said he saw the body of Guilliman in the stasis chamber in the Devastation of Baal book or the Dante book
The reading of the Emperor was literally spine tingling.
Also, love the vibe and humor of the video.
About the very last bit: aren't Lion and Alpharius brothers anyway? You'd need another quote 😂
Lion was never able to recognize Alpharius when he hid.
but where is that quote from?
not really. "That was not my brother [guilliman]" my brother meaning guilliman specifically. gman is his brother, and if its not gman, then its not his brother
Obviously it is all up to the writers to waffle whatever they want at the end of the day.
But I'm still convinced it would simply be that during the Heresy Rowboat was convinced he would have to run the imperium on his own (or at least at the head of his brothers) given the turning / unreliability of his other brothers to not simply pursue their own goals at all times and he already had experience running galactic empires well beyond any of his brothers.
As such, he got Cawl to make crap that would only answer to him on inception; but he would then be able to pass along to respective Primarch's/chapters depending on which of his brothers were still around or could be trusted at a given time. - Plus I would assume he saw how crazy the Imperium was becoming during/post heresy and maybe wanted to be able to ensure that he could perform a Coup should it be needed.
TDLR: He is his fathers son, semi convinced he's the best man for the job and has to ensure he can control the Imperium when he needs to.
I feel like Lion El Johnson would immediately spot if Roboute Guilliman wasn't the real Roboute Guilliman. Also Guilliman would have probably not survived a meeting with the Emperor on the Golden Throne unless he wasn't the real Guilliman .
I mean Johnson was notoriously fooled by Alpharius before, it can be done.
Yeah i know Dorn instantly saw throw Alpharius's stuff, but that was some Matt Ward caliber favoritism in that novel.
@@aguspuig6615Well Dorn was a blank right? I mean alpharius/omegon shenanigans work just because of some psyker habilities that they control but Dorn is not affected by psykers so it makes sense in a way, no?
This assumes that the Lion is indeed genuine himself.
I think its way more likely that Big G just planned to take control of the legions by himself or was called thief by having his father's sword and/or the primaris and the control that was sipposed to be for the council. He prettu much is setting himself to be the emperor. That would qualify him for that. That Guiliman repetition is like someone who know that his son was naughty and wanders what to do with him.
22:54: "Guilliman, Guilliman, Guilliman... And bits of sick" - Garth Marenghi's Grimdark Place
The doors of Grimdark were opened. Not the literal doors to the building, most of which were closed, but evil doors, dark doors, doors to the beyond. Doors that were hard to shut because they were abstract and didn't have handles. They were more like portals, really. From this day on, I'd have to fight these forces of darkness . . . and deal with the burden of day-to-day admin.
God damn I love that mini series.
Omegon actually first appears under VERY strange circumstances, alone on a planet during the Rangdan Xenocides... right after the Dark Angels supposedly wiped out one of those two missing legions... in a campaign that is itself highly [REDACTED]... You know, one of the legions that the Ultramarines supposedly also absorbed elements from...
And let's not forget that the Alpha Legion apparently had enough gene-splicing knowledge to mess up the Raven Gaurd's attempted new generation of aspirants.
Is Omegon even actually Alpharius' twin? Or is he "something else", manipulating the entire system, the ultimate long game of replacing Guilliman and taking over the imperium?
23:25 Or it could just be how he judges Gullimen for forming imperium Secundus and failing to arrive for the defense of Terra
That's more likely the case. But it's more fun to think it's something else.
Dammit I fell into the rabbit hole that the "titanic" that sank wasn't the "titanic" but her sister ship the "Olympia". Dragged myself out of that rabbit hole and been clean from conspiracies for a few years....one wrong youtube video later....and I am back down the fooking rabbit hole. There goes my 5 year clean chip.....
Tupac is still alive underground.
Everyone knows Tupac is still alive in Serbia
18:00 Space Marines actually generally are described to have eidetic to near-photographic memory, so even if Dante wouldn't notice a change, it's hard to believe a Veteran Ultramarine, with virtually unlimited access to Guiliman's shrine over the course of possibly over 500 years, possibly having extremely good image recall abilities, wouldn't notice what should be a static image of his gene-father changing, even minutely. That is to say, it should have come up enough times for the Ultramarines to at least have a superstition about seeing changes in Guilliman's face and wounds.
8:11 - I'm no lore expert, but if Guilliman knew that Vulkan was a Perpetual, he'd probably realise that freezing him in stasis would be a waste of his potential! As for the other Primarchs, though, it's a good point ... I suppose he might have thought Leman Russ would have scorned such a backup plan, maybe?
Honestly, I’ve hust been running with the theory that since Eldar sorcery was involved in his “resurrection”, that he’s actually some spirit stone amalgamation stomping about in Guilliman’s body. Explains the hyper-specislization of Primaris units - they’re basically aspect marines.
The specialisation of primaris is more similar to the structure of space marine legions
A striking scorpion doesn’t change to being a warp spider if his starch says he should
A primaris marine can presumably be deployed with whatever gear he’s assigned
I hate primaris and how they copy heresy legions, but your theory uses a false equivalency.
he wasn't dead, he was in a perpetual state of dying from the wound fulgrim gave him.... until the plague war books but thats another story
Was referring mainly to the degree of specialization for each squad type’s role as opposed to the more mixed equipment and roles of squads in battle, not the culture surrounding dedication to a particular method of warfare between conflicts.
Yep, wasn’t dead. Thus the quotes on “resurrection”.
It expains why Primaris masks look like Eldar masks
I feel like it would just be easier for Alpharius/Omegon to just use their powers that let them dictate how others perceive them to disguise themselves rather than just using the passage to of to make people forget what Guilliman looks like
But Guilliman split up the legions before the duel on Eskrador, right? So saying there was a switch would not fix any "the codex doesn't make sense" issues, it would actually make them worse. Since before, the question of the Chaos legions not playing by the same rules could be explained by Guilliman building a loophole in for himself, whereas now there's no such defense.
"Guilliman being a bit of a bastard really" just kind of already sufficiently explains everything and injecting Alpharius into it doesn't actually add any explanatory power. It's not clear what Alpharius' motive even is with this argument.
If you want X was secretly replaced theories I favour "the emperor was secretly replaced"
guilliman being the real deal seems to be just fact due to him meeting the emperor magnus and having that whole moment with mortarion
even when he met eldrad, if these ppl didnt notice anything then well
Thing that occurs to me as the only counter argument I can think of is this: The Emperor is described as looking like Gulliman "As a prisoner does a rasp." Referring to a file, a tool to escape imprisonment. Would the Emperor care if it was, say, Omegon standing there? A tool is a tool.
But that's not a solid counter at all, so I'm pretty sure GW intends him to be the real deal.
"Thats when Grim Dark is back in the building baby" was solid John McClane Gold
If this became canon it wouldn't even be the most unhinged 40k retcon
Such a good Video. I love how your delivery falls between a Monty Python Sketch and a Classic Top Gear Round Table.
Or it could have just been another attempt at Imperium Secundus that got messed up after being stabbed and put on ice for 10 000 years. That would be a better explanation and make more sense.
That's been my interpretation of the whole 'betrayer, thief' bit. Like, Gulliman my dude, did you really think your dad didn't know?
You haven't proved anything to me, but I appreciate the hard work you've put into the video. Please don't stop making videos
So i like the theory, but the thing that makes me the most skeptical is that i cant see gw being subtle in any way shape or form.
27:09 well, technically speaking, even if it IS Alpharius, that's still the Lion's brother...
I've had the thought that Guilliman was dead for years. But my version revolves around the 4th edition Battle for Macragge. When Hive Fleet Behemoth reached Macragge, made landfall and fought all over the planet. In the story in my old 4th edition tyranid codex, the defenders got pushed back to the polar fortresses where the outer defenses got overrun, with the Southern Polar FOrtress having been breeched all the way into the inner sanctum where the last members of the First Company all died, fighting back to back. Well... Robute wasn't in the Polar Fortresses. He was in Hera. Hera isnt mentioned at all in that text, but I always assumed that a juicy target such as Guilliman would glow like a small beacon for the Hive, even if dead/stasis/comatose whatever... The Lion dreamed up an entire realm in the warp while he was sleeping. Surely the Tyranids knew he was there. I... kinda just thought the current Guilliman to be a Genestealer. With most of the leadership of Ultramar being Genestealers by now.
Dorn killed? Hmmm.... Doubtful, especially considering the possible MSRP of his miniature
Disparity between new and old 40K lore? Another theory.. hear me out. One (the old ) lore was written by someone who loved writing the lore and creating a deep rich background, the other… is written by a toddler with a crayon to sell new models
That's not even a theory, that's a fact
And you have the lemmings, discussing about theories... Omg
Conspiracy view: GW is moving the plot along to shoot for an Age of Sigmar style reset on the 40k universe with a mass revamp of rules, fluff, and, of course, models.
You're correct, except they did that at the beginning of 8th. It was a completely different game before that with different lore and rules and Primaris were part of it
They already did
@@idkwmytuniyeah they kind of learned their lesson with fantasy end times and changed everything without actually killing the game.
But I still think that they are aiming for the hard reboot, just not so sudden. The coming back of the primarchs leads me to believe that GW is preparing us for a great cataclysmic event like ressurection of the emperor who will destroy the whole galaxy and rebuild it.
@@DzikiWaclaw They've accomplished the reboot, that's why there are so many Primarchs in the first place. 40k is already a completely different setting now
This just adds more spiciness to my own pet theory that there is only one missing primarch: the primarch of the 20th.
Live audio from a captured alpha legionare telling an ultramarine the "true secrets" of his chapter
A buried copy of a Vox recording between a Alpha marine mocking a respected high Inquisitor-Lord gets unearthed sending the Ordo Heredicus into a frenzy trying to bury it again.... the few scant seconds of it is simply;
"laughter. Guilliman isn't Guilliman and you don't even know. You know... we've always been here, we never left but you never got why. Hmm, I expect by days end my pardon will be from sources that even you can't question and I'll simply walk out of here. Simply put you are my puppet little Inquisitor and there is nothing you can do about it."
I enjoy very much, that you not only talk, but Act before the camera. Makes it much more personal then constant art with voiceover, I feel like a crazy uncle is telling me a tale or sth haha
Hang on, Alpharius IS Lion El'Johnson's brother isn't he? He'd have to say, "That was not the one of my brothers I had thought it was going to be going into the meeting. It was a different one of my brothers." Just as catchy.
Stasis devises were rare but not so rare that the Ultramarines wouldn't have one on hand. I mean the Space Wolves had and still have stasis grenades. Half of the dark cells on Terra are stasis cells. When your entire theory rests on such a flawed assumption I am sorry to say its building a theory on quicksand.
Did you watch the video?
so instead of saying we will make marines bigger, they introduced them as a new faction in the lore and opened a shit-ton of plot holes to justify their existence... BRUH
Hate to break it to ya but if you go back to the very beginning of 40k lore it's nothing but plot holes and retcons. Doesn't mean it's bad but that's the reality of 40k.
@@adepressedcatwithabadnicot246 early 40k is suspended because it's purely a setting. They seem determined to have a linear moving story now and it deserves criticism.
@@Splozy nah man things change primarchs use to not exist, ultramarines danced, and space marines were knuckle draggers. And it will change again and again and again. It's how the setting and hobby has lasted this long.
@@adepressedcatwithabadnicot246 I read old books and while they changed stuff, it was more organic, building upon previous work, first it was the warmaster, then he was named Horus, then the primarchs where named, then their stories developed, etc. and some stuff was dropped out of the canon
I don't mind change, if is dobe subtlety
Primarchs are weird in that they jammed in a time travel story that comes out of nowhere and that the whole point was to establish that the new toys are bigger and have new armor. I know they took the chance to milk books and stuff out of it, but storywise it isn't even good.
I am quite new to the setting and hearing the firstborn in the great work felt wrong man, "we are old, we suck, we must go and leave the figth to the primaris which are bigger and have shiny toys and are really cool, buy them now" c'mon man!
To this day I still think, BRUH, why?
An example of GW writing quality: the new Primaris tanks are hover tech, but are stated instead of lifting the machine, they push down on the ground and crush anything they move over.
I believe it is also stated that they can move over water.
What happens when you push down on water? It moves out of the way, and you go down into it.
Therefore Primaris hover tanks sink when moving over water.
It would still be his brother though, right? Just not the right one. Either way, great line
Your theory is clever and interesting so modern GW would absolutely never allow anything like that. It's all about good guys in blue armor who shoot the evil aliens and save the day.
Guilliman was the head of the Imperium back then. Why he would want to ensure continuity.
Plus GW wanted to sell different scale models so primaris.
Chaos breaks are what happened. That is why the Ordos Chronos are working behind the scenes to correct the timelines. The Imperial secret Wars.
I quit between 4th-7th edition. When I came back and looked at the promostuff, my initial thought on seeing (what I now know to be) Gulliman, was 'That's a particularly fancy Ultramarine', naively believing that GW wouldn't have done the unthinkable and released a primarch.
I don't think Disney has bought GW, but GW is Disney now nonetheless.
exactly
Maybe we are all dead and this whole reality is some kind of Hell which has ensnared our collective souls
Well... That escalated quickly.
Now that I think about it, this does explain why I can smell your feet while sitting in your attic. And if you don't have an attic then I don't know whose house I'm in.
Ah the Gnosticism position. And old and bold one indeed!
This is not at all where I thought the video was going. Great stuff. 40k lore feels like a collection of scrap notes and oral histories and my favorite thing about it is you have so much room to play with the mysteries and gaping plot holes.
If well done it would be a good twist. However as I get older I realize more and more that the official stories tend to be worse than the good fan ones.
I was always surprised that Warhammer never showed up in Peep Show. Mark talked about being subscribed to White Dwarf, he had Fantasy Model Builder hidden in his closet, and he was obsessed with war and tactics.
Would the emperor help a fake to strike down Mortarion?
So the emperor couldn't see it when he met him? For what he said to Grillerman, it seemed unlikely
I would point out mind that the "traitor" part of the interaction with the Emperor is most likely a reference to Imperium Secundus, which again might be likely to rear it's head as a point of political intrigue - in particular to drive a wedge between the returned primarchs and the Ecclesiarchy.
I like the theory but what’s the explanation for the beginning of dark imperium where we get guilliman’s direct POV of his death and hear about his past relationships with the marines present as he dies?
Maybe he is a method actor?
@@OldenDemon of course, I should have never doubted Alpharius (or Omegon). Hydra Dominatus.
me five seconds in: "Yeah, I've been saying from day 1, Guilleman is dead, that's the surviving member of the greatest pop-folk duo in all of the imperium Alpharius or Omegon"
edit: *15 minutes later* Yup. We are in agreement (let's see how Far we are in agreement!)
Yup, pretty much exactly my thoughts (although I hadn't considered the Timelapse Projection As Healing angle and had just gone with "The Alpha Legion Have Explicitly Done Plastic Surgery To Flawlessly Impersonate People In The Past" (there's a short story in one of the collections, can't remember which off the top of my head, that has one replacing the inquisitor that has been tracking him)
I'm not convinced, because the Primaris is a Guilliman's plan to revel and sedece from the Imperium but after waking up he found how fucked things were and had to improvise.
The transition of your face to David Mitchell’s face was genius 😂
Sadly not the worst bit of 40K fanfiction I’ve ever heard.
Hooray, im not crazy, I've seen this ressurection and primaris 'upgrade' with Belisarius very into necrons and eldar to 'advance the Emperor's design' is very hinting that everything can turn very bad for those who feel okay with Primarch (a weapon) being brought back by Aeldary sorcery.
Added the religious side of the brought back Primarch (I know I know he said he reconsiders things not totally went nun) makes things even more suspicious, as he definitely knows the consequences of faith, being the executioner on some planet with temples and believers back then.
I don't consider anything beyond 8th edition to be canon.
If its the 42nd millenia then its not 40k, its 41k
We live in the age of British older millennials nerding out about warhammer on UA-cam and I'm all about it.
My favorite 40k content I've watched in months. Well done, sir.
I'm at 14:31 and you've just said "This is from 2003..." and I think I've spotted where the continuity difficulties set in. They are easily resolved if you ignore all lore material added after 1998. Problem solved.
24:02 Leman is the Emperor's worst tool. I can't think of one thing he did right during the heresy
Whoa you brought back a memory! My dad had a book called "The walrus was Paul" all about "Pauls death." Very interesting....
Every additional clue & "...or is it?" moment with a sound playing had me absolutely cackling! Excellent stuff, thank you!
The real question: is Jaghatai Khan behind that scary door in Comorragh or is it Slaanesh?
This theory is so much fun, I love the alpha legion and hearing this just made me smile.
Is this the craziest idea a British postal worker has ever had? Probably not, considering the whole William Brewster thing.
RG split the legions to make them less monolithic in the hopes of getting GW lore fans to occasionally talk about a faction other than fucking Space Marines.
It did not succeed.
i thought they where spilt up so space marine fanboys could have more space marine stuff to obsess over without having to think of anything outside of space marines.
As a big fan of Roboute, I now see him with different eyes than I ever imagined. And yes, I notice some subtle changes in his form, but even so, changes in behavior and Guilliman's decisions in recent stories are so drastic that they could suggest that it is not really him, which is intriguing to say the least.
He's almost mirroring what his genedaddy did, biding time to theoretically favor himself, not necessarily mankind. Guilly is just a more imperfect bastard than big E.
I just got to give props to you as a content creator. I have been binging your videos whilst painting minis all morning and not stopped laughing easily my favourite 40k channel!
Your videos are so refreshing man. A lot of 40k content on youtube has turned into samey mush, but this channel is awesome!
"That was not my brother" would be great way for series to go ahead, but instead of alpharius you could make Cawl scheming around and possibly cloning or remaking Guilliman as a fake primarch, he certainly benefits from that.
That would be awesome actually
Id like to point out something in new 40k lore about the emperor. He threw away a ton of his emotions before fighting horus, these emotions were strong enough that he was seconds away from becoming a chaos god, he cast these emotions away but they were never destroyed and seemingly werent consumed. Since they came from the emperor its holy possible these emotions eventually manifested into the "god emperor" warp being whos not actually the emperor of mankind. Its wholly possible that being was the one that resurrected guilluman and the skeleton on the throne is just that, a mostly if not entirely dead corpse.
This could work really well as a series, but the pushback would be nightmarish.
Maybe Roboute surviving being a plot of the Alpha Legion could be a funny reveal when they become the next big bad.
I like the idea and I'd love for that concept to be executed with some other characters, but I don't think it works in this case.
The first problem is, that Alpharius and Omegon were always smaller and less awesome as far as primarchs go, to the point where they could be mixed up with space marines, so there would be a noticeable difference to depictions of Guilliman, as well as equipment, etc.
Secondly, there are a few people (like Fallen, Dreadnoughts, etc.) left that either lived since 30k or were flung through time to 40k and have met Guilliman (in 30k). Those would recognize him in 40k, making the whole plan far too risky to attempt.
There are also pict casters and considering Guilliman was a primarch, leader of a legion, ruler of his own mini empire, and regent of the empire, there would be plenty of pictures of him to compare his current self to.
The strongest bit of evidence, though, is what happens after Guilliman's resurrection. After he cuts through a bunch of traitor astartes, he takes command of the planetary defence effort and shows strategic brilliance that makes the previous Ultramarines leadership look mediocre. Then, when fighting his way through the system and sector, he does that again and again, with strategy as well as logistics. Alpharius does not have those abilities. That's the reason, the Emperor calls Guilliman his last hope, he is the only primarch who can actually save the Imperium, rather than just defend it or lead armies to defeat enemies.
In addition: Dante should absolutely recognize any change, as marines have eidetic memory (or did that change after the heresy?) and there are plenty heresy-era recruits in the Primaris, who would also recognize him.
Nontheless: Booby G could very well be dead, as he had been slain by Mortarion and is now a Husk on the lifestrings of Big E himself, his mind implying he's still Bobby G while Big E took over the steering wheel. Comparable to Lotara Sarrin in the third End and the Dead, seeing the mutated body of herself sitting on the throne of the concqueror and just then realizing she was long dead.
I think even the freshest Primaris would notice that their Primarch, quite curiously, is roughly the same height as them when he should be much taller
Recently there was an Alpha Legion book where at 5hr end an ultramarine adjacent space marine was actually a sleeper agent and was deactivated at the end by a fellow Alpha Legion marine eith a codeword. He had 200 years of service with the infiltrated chapter.
I really did enjoy this theory. Also, that face transition was pure gold.
I wouldn't put anything past Alpharius.
It might not be "true", but it is a fun idea.
Might as well to argue that Guilliman was dead physically but rebirthed to be the "Captain" of Legion of The Damned's semi-official Imperial Daemons
Which somewhat still fits Majorkill theory about Primarchs' souls being of lesser warp gods that are powerful on their own (to the point of their individual presence can bend destiny in both Immaterium and Materium, provided they're more adjusted with having positive parental figures and developing self-esteem, unlike Primarch of the Night Lords legion) and independent from Chaos or any factions of warp gods' pantheon in The Warp
Ok, that post office computer joke was damn good.
Pretty sure the Marvel Calgar comic isn't canon. I forgot where I heard that from though
Well most of 40k after 2017 isn’t canon so that’s probably why.
Everything ever written or commissioned by GW for 40k is canon, especially the contradicting parts
@@Yurt_enthusiast7 you are not Terry Pratchet.
That would be an interesting plot twist, but unfortunately I think it’s more like Guilliman is Guilliman, and buy Primaris stuff.. because. The whole conception of them has been a shambles for the most part, but I like the creative way you’ve used that botch job to come up with this theory.
Oh, and isn’t Alpharius hanging around with someone in the Bequin book series? I mean, it can definitely not be him, but who knows. I like the theory that he could also be Cypher, but that probably doesn’t have much backing it.