I would love to see a video of you detailing the history of your company. How you got involved in cars, what were the first cars you modified, how it all went from there including where you reached a point where you decided to make your own engines. That would be a fascinating video!
I`d like to see that too, he`s still a young man and it would be interesting to see how he rose so relatively fast, He fixed the head gasket water leaks that we struggled with 22yrs ago. Thinking outside the box
Hell yeah, Steve! I would love to see a series on building a Land Speed engine. The rules you have to follow for the class you're in and how you work with those constraints. That would be cool. Thanks for bringing us along and sharing your passion.
@@jeffreyjohnson3857 homeschooled were you?i just wonder..vander you get them form??i bet you are fire brand trump supporter and a christian nationalist.
it s your not you are...i think smx platform is interesting.man i wish engines like that were available when i was racing actively.i ran roots blown 538 pro stock engine and later 526 bbc pro mod type of deal.
@@neilgillam9919 "my gut feeling is the post machining heat treatment for these rods was incorect and made them brittle." Or, the internal engine temperature was high enough to drive additional aging of the particular alloy used. That would explain why they ran fine for several runs and then suffered what appears to be a brittle failure.
Steve please don’t worry about explaining yourself twice because of some comments, your true followers/subscribers watch your videos and understand what you’re doing and thankfully because you explain a lot we know why. Just keep putting out videos like you are giving us your opinion/experience with whatever you’re working on and I bet we’ll be happy. Thank you Steve and Kyle.
The rod failure in the Wagonmaster engine, I think can be attributed to the rod design....those "windows" milled into the beams, as opposed to the full-length relief seen on the beams of most aluminum rods. There are many possible stress points between the pin bore and the crank bore (big & small end) than in the conventional aluminum rods, as we know them. Just my thoughts. Great videos, I try to watch all of them. Thanks.
Steve, I have seen all your vids, researched you when I learned of the Devlen 16... Haters will hate and think they know. Metelergical issues is my guess on the con rod disaster, Crap happens for sure. I loved how you explained that Bailey's junk is your junk.. LOL.. My wife rolls her eyes at me how I can remember a engine /car stuff, but not what I went to the grocery store to get. Keep on doing what makes you happy.
I remember a case of hydrogen embrittlement when our fasteners were cadmium plated. This looks very similar to our scenario even to the point of time passage after the process. As time went on, continued embrittlement was evident as bolt heads were easily broken without significant torque applied. It appears the anodizing process has introduced imbrittlement into the rod material.
for all the rods to fail makes me think they were too hardened. i suspect either a few pistons knocked causing fractures or one chamber failed caused a pressure wave that traveled down the crank like a bump spreads a crack in the windscreen. it looks like they need more of a spring temper.
All of it Steve!!!! Love everything you guys do on the engine, chassis, and butt dyno! Love all the engine tech stuff. Love seeing the engines made out of a block of aluminum! Just love it all and the way you also show the good and the bad! The best part is you involve your son in all of it!!!
I was a machinist for decades and I love seeing your beautifully machined engines. Maybe a time lapse of block machining. Love your videos, even the exploding rods.
steve from me being a follower of your channel so long ,,, and seeing all of your content for the most part the vid,s you do are all great ,,, and informative as well just plain interesting stuff ,,, i think all that you show is second to none !!! Tony
After almost two decades of class 8 Diesel engine repair, I have seen some crazy carnage like this. Could be the grain of the aluminum, lightning pockets too deep, length making rod unstable under certain harmonics, or the guy could have just been given subpar billets. Being the first person to test the limits of a part can have some bad growing pains.
I'm intrigued by the land speed engine. Interested to see what it takes to build one that has to balance power/ reliability/ durability/ endurance for miles of flat out running. That's a different breed of motorsports.
I had a 400 Pontiac back in the 90s Tollway only had two tolls between Chicago and the Wisconsin border The 400 unwound till the carburetor stopped voluminous pull . 2.73 geared Baddest thing to experience.. But attention to speed was shotgun I was looking forward.
I’d love to see the planning process. Customer comes to you with what they want it to do and you decide format, size, parts…all that would be real cool to see.
You just answered your own question Steve first time those rods had been in an engine as powerful as yours. . You’re the man to make it all good again 👍
I just made the same comment without seeing yours. My apologies, I think that the vendor was sold a impure product. Seeing how all 8 rods just broke into hundreds of pieces is absolutely insane.
@@GetFuct1911 I more suspect they use a material that trades a higher fatigue life for lower absolute strength. They don't seem to claim on their website that they are suitable for 4,000HP, but do claim they have a lot of experience at the 2,000hp level.
@@bradley3549 I appreciate the further information. It makes sense why Steve said he would still use this vendor. Hopefully they will be able to make rods that can withstand the SMX power. Seeing how humble he is to not toss anyone under the bus and clearing up the keyboard mechanics was refreshing to watch. I spent 2 decades in Aviation and always kept my mouth shut unless I was 100% certain on a issue. Take care.
I just showed the video to a friend of mine, who is a metallurgist, and he actually does not think it's a material issue. He works in the industrial fan and pump industry, so he knows his business on pulling and compression forces. Nobody can obviously say anything without properly examining the material and parts, but his point is that if it had been the material, chances are more likely for individual failures and failure points that are more varied. These failed in pretty much the same places in the same way, and because of this, he thinks it's a design issue that creates a specific weak point in that area of the rod so to speak. But again, all of this is assumptions and nobody can be sure without a proper examination of the parts.
Steve, after watching the teardown. I said then that the rods failed. When every rod in an engine fails you have to blame the design or alloy and accept that they weren't up to the job. I'm sorry that the rod failure damaged that gorgeous block! Great videos!
The LSR motor would be of interest. I try to understand everything you have to say but you are on such a different level than me and I would bet many other of your subscribers that anything you have to say is greatly appreciated. So refreshing to hear from someone as honest and genuine as you. Looking forward to your next video no matter what it contains. Thanks Phil Stevens
Found you from Cleetus' channel, stayed for the content. Love hearing all the in depth no BS explanations. Wish I could get a shop tour and hang out for a bit. As for the max exodus....it definitely appears to be a material issue and glad they are working with you to figure it out. I work at a Navistar dealer...seen plenty of bent rods but none that disintegrated like that
I would love to see some more about your trailblazer. Also I really enjoy the build videos that are packed full of detail about why you went with a specific part and what you gain from it compared to other options.
We want to see the entire land speed build up to and including the first runs. As for the rods, I’m guessing Kyle moved the Piston Delete button wire to the Connecting Rod delete position on the FuelTech. It happens!
Land speed engine sounds interesting. I basically like the high level of engineering and stuff involved in engines. I also really like your explinations. Oh, if a video is longer and I have to watch it in segments then I will.
Totally agree, land speed racing sounds very different to drag racing - putting the engine under max load for 6-7 seconds or 6-7 miles will result in some differences I guess and I'd like to hear this stuff addressed. Is the engine designed the same way? Are there any specifics you need to keep in mind?
@@needmoreboost8208 bro do you realize what you just said? 24 hrs wide open basically vs a couple miles. yes land speed cars go fast but they are usually aerodynamic and light which power isnt always the main goal. hence why they get miles to get up to speed. lemans cars which have been known to spin over 20k rpms undergo alot more stress that people dont understand. piston acceleration destroys motors and that happens every time the piston hits top dead center and bottom dead center. at 7k rpms things get scary 10-12k much worse and after 20k its pretty terrifying. some lemans cars have many more cylinders than land speed cars. 12 cylinders at 20k rpms is insane stress on the crank. something it would never feel at 7k rpms for 2 mins or less. its a good thing your thinking power doesnt build my motors or they wouldnt last as long as they do...
This is why I love this channel and KSR. I always walk away learning something. Also, as a guy who can't afford the nice spinny bois, a NA ground up build would be awesome!
Steve, you are a brilliant man in your field with many years of experience. I'm pretty sure you really don't need to defend yourself over parts failure. I'm positive if you did something wrong you would be the first to put your hand up & admit it. I'm so impressed with your talent & knowledge of the industry you are right at the top of your game. I have followed you since Garrett introduced you to us & the quality of your builds is very high end. Love your work Mate. Billy J.... Queensland, Australia.
I watched the entire assembly video closer after the last video, and his assembly was meticulous and flawless. Maybe I missed something? I dont think so though. Like Steve said, I think this is a simple case of new manufacturer working on rods in a new application. I am sure this will give them a lot of important info to better their product for this specific type of application. No company would willingly/purposefully provide a bad/inferior part, especially to Steve as it does not help a business in any way shape or form. Fact is, you are not always going to get it right the first try when venturing into a new application for your products.
I like watching the actual process of start to finish on a build. Watching the actual work being done start to finish. Like you're teaching the next generation how you go about building an engine.
I’d love to see more build series videos. I also really enjoy how you went into such detail to figure out and explain your problem. Amazing how extreme an engine failure can be at that power level
Excellent videos. Thanks for your efforts. I am a GM engineer that spent 38 years in engine development. I worked directly on 5 different engine families at GM and 4 later on at Chrysler as a contract engineer Including teardowns of Viper and hellcat engines). I accutually had a reputation for root causing the failure mode in many cases so I got called in a lot to look at broken parts like yours and offer an opinion. We never made the power you do but many of our failures were just as catastrophic as we were running production engines like the supercharged Northstar Cadillac V engine and the 427 LS engines at peak power and RPM for HUNDREDS of hours. I have walked into dyno cells with the crank hanging down below the block so I know what carnage is! One tip I could offer that often was the final clue is to take all the broken parts(including the rod ends) and treat them like a jig saw puzzle and "put them back together lying on a table. This obviously takes a lot of time particularily trying to get the rod bolts back into the puzzle in the proper rod, etc. Doing this you may notice a pattern and/or discover which rod broke first. As simple as it sounds doing the puzzle putting the pieces back together in an orderly fashion was my "secrect" analysis providing the clue no one else noticed. Once I had all the pieces back together but could not find one rod bolt....we found it by sweeping up the dyno cell and cleaning out the crevices in the dyno room bed plate. That turned out to be the only broken rod bolt that wasn't bent indicating it was the first to break and then caused all the collateral damage. When you showed those rods about a month ago I chuckled then and said " grenades" out loud watching the video. Too much lightening pockets causing way too many stress risers and thin sections in the loaded part of the rod. A finite analysis of that rod would show huge stresses at the corners of the lightening pockets. I would guess when the beam is heavily loaded the walls of all the pockets are going to distribute load to the corners of the pockets which is likely the initial crack initiation location. Have a cad engineer do a finite analysis (computer stress analysis) of the rod and it will be pretty obvious why no one makes rods like that before. that part had obviously never seen a finite analysis for stress or you would never have put them in an engine. I am amazed they lasted as long as they did and it seems to comply with the fact that they all seemed to break at the same time. It would not take much for one to break and collaterally takeout all the others instantly as they were on the verge anyway. I think you mentioned the rods were anodized. Have a metallurgist look at the grain structure of the rod material. Hard anodizing causes a problem called hydrogen embrittlement as some hydrogen is driven into the surface molecules of the material which act as stress risers. ANY hard anodized part like that would need a deep thermal stress reliving operation after anodizing. This would be done by baking the rods at 300 F or thereabouts for 4 or 5 hours to eliminate the possible ( likely) hydrogen embrittlement. If I had one guess I would put the money on hydrogen embrittlement with what I have seen in your video.
Thank you for sharing. Hydrogen embrittement is a great suspect, in Steve's previous building video has shown the lack of gloves or other means of contamination prevention that support the issues. Chemical and electrical interactions inside engines is a great deal that is often overlooked but material can change properties with friction including internal stress friction and vibrations and natural harmonic of the parts. The more I look the more I invest in a laboratory for testing and documentation, small shop picking on big problems we need to solve for the community. Testing information and resources useful.
I know you mostly do boosted applications, but I’d love to hear a dyno session with a 9,000 rpm naturally aspirated engine if one comes through the shop.
I loved seeing the engine build that unfortunately ended badly. I would love to see the machining that goes into these builds and everything it takes to make these things work. Normal people like me don't get to see this super high end stuff and it's totally fascinating. Thanks for sharing the bad with the good and try not to focus on the negative youtube comments.
Mr. Morris you are a true engine master... I watched all the wagon videos.. I truly believe something in the composition of the rod material was the culprit. Not shaming rhe rod maker in any way. However in these trying times you gotta take what you can get. Thanks for your time and knowledge
I saw the previous video, and I'm shocked at what happened. That's crazy how every rod broke the same way. I never thought the engine wasn't assembled correctly. My initial thought was there could be something wrong with the process in making the rods, or the material itself was compromised in some way. You could send out a piece of a rod to get it inspected for grain structure and material analysis. That's where I'd start anyway. I recently saw something that I found very interesting about a specific rod type. They were carbon fiber and supposedly unbreakable. What are your thoughts on that, and would you ever try them?
I had a similar thought too. Given that all of the rods failed at basically the same time, and with the same failure mode right at the highest stress part of the rod I would be willing to bet that the failure was caused by either a metallurgical error (e.g. the alloy had too much or too little of some component or other) or during the forging of the billet (my understanding of billet rods is that the billet itself is forged in order to shrink grain size before machining) something happened that caused the grain structure to be very large, and therefore particularly brittle. IMO, carbon rods will be very difficult to produce, and they certainly wouldn’t be unbreakable in an application like this. There are 3 primary problems (that I’m aware of) with carbon rods. The first is that engine oil becomes acidic over time. That acidity, especially combined with the heat of a running engine will eat most (maybe even all?) epoxy resins that would be used for laying up the carbon fiber. Also, in the heat of an engine, the epoxy used to hold the carbon together will (generally, I’m sure there are exceptions) get softer, which means the rod wouldn’t be able to take as much power. Secondly, carbon fiber, while incredibly strong, would have a fatigue life in an engine like this. The stresses of running a 4,000hp motor would almost certainly cause microscopic fractures in the fibers throughout the rod. While on lower load applications (like bicycles, or hypercars), carbon is effectively a non-fatiguing material (in this case it just means that the fatigue life is so long you’d be unlikely to run into it), in a crazy application like this, you would definitely be running up into the fatigue life of the carbon. Additionally, because carbon fiber composites are anisotropic materials, the actual life span of a rod would be very hard to predict/plan for. Plus, most damage that does occur would likely be either internal (from layers delaminating) and/or microscopic, you’d need to use an ultrasound in order to actually determine if the rod is still good, which would necessitate a full tear down that I suspect would need to be more frequent than with even aluminum rods (and each rod would be WAY more expensive). Thirdly, it’s extremely difficult to mold carbon into the shapes that are actually needed for a connecting rod. Carbon does not like tight corners, at all and can cause pools of epoxy to form (in the case of infused parts) or even full on voids (particularly in the case of pre-preg materials). Additionally, during the curing process the carbon can shift or bend slightly, depending on the layup and this could conceivably mean that there is a lot of static stress just waiting to cause a failure in an extreme load. Dimensional accuracy and concentricity are also things that can be difficult to achieve with carbon, especially because I would imagine that you wouldn’t want any carbon at the surface of the part (which basically means you can’t machine the rod to spec). Carbon is extremely abrasive, and if any of it is sticking out of the epoxy, it will happily grind through bearings, or just about anything else it comes into contact with. I’m sure it could be done, I’m just not sure that carbon rods would actually end up being cost effective/actually any better than what we already have, especially when considering the fact that carbon is still relatively unpredictable in terms of maximum loading for just about anything other than a flat plate.
@Kevin Kaminski I worked in the forging industry for 20yrs. The main reason why forged parts are so strong isn't because it makes the cellular structure smaller. A piece of material before forging while strong, it has a random cell structure, and that can cause weakness in certain areas. The forging process aligns the cell structure and will make it much stronger. I'll admit, up until the other day, I didn't even think carbon rods were possible. I was only going on the post I saw about them and wanted other opinions.
@@tomlompa6598 That’s really cool! From what I’ve seen/read, the grain structure being smaller does at least play some part in the strength/toughness of the metal - up to a point (too small a grain structure being less strong). I’ve seen some manufacturers of forged rods claim that their forgings are stronger than billet rods of a similar weight, because the forging process gives them the ability to control the grain structure/alignment throughout the entire part, and that they can orient the grain in the strongest way for each segment of the part. Supposedly the (I assume) entirely uniform grain structure of billet parts means that they end up being slightly weaker overall. In your experience, would you say that there’s any truth to that? Or would you say that the fully aligned grain structure of a billet that is then machined down should end up being stronger?
That “Mass Exodus “ is the craziest thing I’ve seen happen to an engine. I would be interested in seeing some of the machining and modifications you go through on some of those awesome builds you do. Thank you Keep up the great work.
Steve. What you are doing now, is what got me interested in the first place. I like to hear your thought process underways in the things you do. You do it very well as you do. Ohh and by the way those that mean you need to explain everything you do, is wrong. If you feel for it, explain, or else, it is what it is....Your the mann.
Steve, you're an elite engine builder, I'll watch pretty much anything you upload engine related. The build series of the land speed engine sounds cool. I really like the more technical stuff. I enjoy learning about building engines!
I appreciate the fact that you do not make assumptions. You go through a process before you say anything. And that you are honorable and treat others with respect. Love all the content y'all put out. I have learned a bunch. Thank you
Really nice to see you go out of your way to point out that the con rod failure is not a failure of the vendor to acknowledge the material issue, and correct and improve their product.
Steve, really appreciate you taking your time out your very busy schedules and making these videos for us explaining and teaching everyone. Some serious time and knowledge from you and your guys. I hate when people assume and start blaming others as you have shown with these prototype parts failures.
Heat treatment process could have taken them beyond T26 specifications. But for them to shatter like they have it’s unique. I worked at CASTALLOY South Australia 🇦🇺 as a toolmaker. We made all the Harley Davidson wheels.
Love pretty much all your vids regardless of content. The way you set it up like you’re teaching is really great. Always a learning experience on this channel. 👍👍
Thanks again for the update on the rods. I appreciate your patience when others are so fast to know what's going on and have not even researched your channel. Keep up the great work and positive attitude on how business and even non business relationships work.
Steve, the logical analysis I have is that the rods you had in there had a different level of impurity within the metals, used during construction forming a small weakness.
I agree that it has to be some sort of impurity or even the heat treat process, if Aragon gets low during heat treat it will mess up hardness. To me seems impurity or soft or brittle problem. Interested to find out
I would love to see the whole process from start to finish with one of your SMX or even just a regular build non-billet brodix block is fine too just love the when process and you've always been behind some of the best out there so I'd love to see it all not just the end of when things go wrong lol
Steve, I'd love to learn more about the land speed record car through a series of videos. It would be cool to know some of the differences in the engine for that type of build vs a drag car/street car build and so on. On the rod failure, I'm fairly certain it is a metallurgical problem, most likely in the heat treat process or the chemical makeup of the material. One rod likely fractured and created harmonics the wiped out the other rods. And to add to your comments about the bolts not being torqued, the bearings would look terrible, not clean like the ones in the video. Keep up the great work and videos.
@fordfan03; Your comments are clearly among those which indicate Your lacking within proper information, knowledge of physics, materials, metallurgy, engineering, though You have assessed the issue properly to be within the connecting rod materials, metallurgy - only through proper steps, process, methods of, with, within investigation, measurement, assessment, evaluation, differentiation, discernment, analysis, concepts, principles, determination can the cause of the connecting rods to break apart be determined. ->Clearly the evidence shown is certainly, absolutely insufficient for any proper expert to determine the cause. ->the evidence, logic, reason within the concepts, principles of materials, metallurgy, physics and especially within the concepts and principles of resonance, are clearly, obviously in opposition, counter indicative, counter any proper logic, reason, sense. =>Thus, these possible claims are clearly, obviously, certainly, absolutely just incorrect, faulty, 'poor guesses', false, nonsense. Your comments are one of two posted which attempt this clearly incorrect, faulty, 'poor guesses', false, nonsense claim with 'resonance' If You desire, please see my more detailed comment to @J Gregory Kine; about his false, faulty ideas - specifically about 'resonance' - it contains a more proper description of the evidence and necessary details for a proper assessment, evaluation, analysis, determination along with areas to investigate, measure, assess, evaluate, etc. within a proper process, method, etc. which proper physicists, chemists.material experts, metallurgists and engineers proceed, with, use, and follow -> never 'guess work', estimation, presumptions, assumptions, 'trial and error', etc. -> lack of knowledge, concepts, principles, etc. -these comments also include positive comments and suggestion to Steve about and determination for and with his posted vlogs along with some of my background, basis, knowledge, expertise. All The Best and Much Success in Your Quest, Health Happiness, and Well Being. 😊 Sincerely ☺
I was going to say the crank was a hair out of balance but after watching the first video sounds like a design adjustment is need on those rods luv your vids keep them coming the longer the better!! peace out!
Love all you do Steve. Everything to do with engines/cars is interesting. Just keep going where you feel your being led to go. There's always something of interest to learn from
I absolutely agree with your wife. The rest of your videos you should be wearing Frank Gorshin's old "Riddler" costume from the 1960's Batman television series. Then we'll rig a wire that allows you to swing down from the rafters and jump in front of the camera with the first riddle: Riddle me this. A billet block with 8 bent valves how can this be? We'll storyboard the whole thing a week in advance. You'll love it. You're gonna be a huge star.
Steve, it's such a pleasure to see a creative genius at work; to that end, I'll watch every video you put out! I enjoy watching the engine builds, the dyno testing, and the process of building the race car. I'd like to see some info on how you plan an engine with a customer and arriving at a budget for their respective builds. Keep those videos coming!
Hey Steve, I guess this is more of a Stevetech question but, I am curious to get you opinion on under square vs square vs over square engines with the pros and cons. Also, when does over square become too much bore? Could there be a max ratio? ie not worth the piston friction. Thanks for the content, I would watch long form multi episode build ups and projects; especially big block ford projects. Awesome stuff!
@@bradenmolloy7443 Very true thank you for your reply. I will have to take a look at that but what I dont know is in a drag and drive application what is good bad and ugly with a giant bore and a shmedium crank.
@@jimdownes9903 The bigger the bore, the bigger the chamber, and the bigger the valves you can cram in there which equals more air potential. That's my understanding, but I'm sure Steve will add a 'but' to what I think, lol.
@@Deuce1550 The 'but' is that for a given displacement and compression ratio a bigger bore means a wider, flatter chamber shape. It takes longer for the flame front to travel across the wider chamber and therefore you need more ignition advance, plus there is more surface area for heat losses (lower efficiency) and (for a given piston-to-cylinder clearance) more crevice volume, which is bad for emissions. As a result, you can't just increase bore:stroke ratio without limit. 2:1 is a practical upper bound for most purposes, even very high revving motorcycle engines are usually less oversquare than that- e.g. Ducati's Superquadro runs 1.84:1.
@@nerd1000ify yes very good addition there. Semi hemi heads (Harley V-twin etc) allow bigger valves without piston diameter increase, but then valve to valve clearance also becomes a factor.
Love your stuff, Steve! Here's my armchair quarterback of this situation. I think this was a cyclic fatigue stress failure. Aluminum has a finite life which is a function of stress/strain and number of cycles. You heat treat aluminum for strength, but the increased stress reduces number of cycles to failure.
Also, you might suggest to your vendor to go over their heat treatment process and records. I've seen heat treating done improperly cause similar results.
I bought videos from you when that was the only way to get tuning videos and I have never missed an upload or dyno video you have put out. I believe if you started a series on high performance fence painting I would watch those as well. Thank you for all the work and the great videos.
We definitely are interested in longer videos. Love the tech and the breakdowns you provide. Nothing flashy , just facts. Would love to see more on that land speed car for sure .
Good stuff Steve , be interesting to find the real cause of that catastrophic failure unfortunate be it- also be great to see other builds like big block ford and V10 viper I have a special interest in! Thanks the content good stuff! J
Steve, i love all your content, i have yet to rebuild more than a 1 cylinder ATV engine but you make it seem so easy. I love all of the technical content and how easy you make it all seem! Keep up the great work!
I would personally LOVE to see how you make your smaller engines handle so much hp. Also very interested in start to finish and machining. Love the channel
Really fascinating stuff Steve! It's intersting how all the rods seem to have failed in a very similar way and apparently all at once, hopefully between you and the manufacturer you can figure it out. You don't need me to tell you this kind of thing happens when you're pushing the limits but the internet doesn't appreciate that 😆 Keep up the great work 👍
Love your content Steve, I’ll be curious to see what the manufacturer of these rods come back to you with. I previously worked (in Australia) for the local GM subsidiary Holden, in their warranty returns Dept. We would regularly see blown up engines for one reason or another and it was a great exercise in diagnosing what the “root cause” may have been. Whether it was oil supply/contamination, premature bearing failure, over rev or failure of a Conrod bolt, this engine of yours (obviously) doesn’t compare with a stock LS which we used to see regularly but the process of determining the cause shouldn’t prove to be a huge mystery, with some detailed examination, especially by a metallurgist or a materials specialist. Love the channel and keep up the great work.
I want to see the land speed motor build up. Also I'd like to see the making of parts start to finish. Really about anything I learn something from every video
I think this is pretty cool we get to see all the projects you're working on. I know KSR Kevin does like monthly shop updates where he gives the status of many projects he has going that don't always get full videos. I'll be years before I get anywhere near this level of power, but I love absorbing all the knowledge you give us.
Hi Steve, love to watch your videos. Lots of respect to a person able to design so much horsepower into a combustion engine. I used to build built VW engines and that was a blast. I would like to see ( and I know this is basics ) the thought process of for example , a customer saying he/she wants so many horsepower out of so many cubic inches and what goes into that process. Thanks again and sorry to the wagon and the problems it developed.
New subscriber but have been following you for years. I was wondering why go aluminum rod on your wagon in stead of a titanium rod ? Aluminum work hardens after hard runs I’m very surprised at the distance you put on the motor. Well my best guess at the rods scattering was service limit exceeded due to work hardening fatigue. I would love to see you build same engine with titanium rods and see how long it lasts. I understand the reasons for an aluminum rod but not from a longevity stand point. Well sir love your engines and all the effort you pour into motorsports. I can’t wait to see your next videos!
Id assume the same. I also would add its probably not just the rods. Im guessing just a bad cast or something with the hardening/annealing process. Uncle Tonys Garage has a good video showing a brand new break rotor that came shattered in 3-4 pieces in the box. Either companies are rushing the process due to demand or just got missed.
I would question the metallurgy of the aluminium. They may have stretched too far (past design specifications) or just failed due to stress fractures and the relative brittle nature of aluminium. All 8 would lead me to believe a mfg defect (bad billet batch). I would also question the rod bolt quality since they ALL came off the crank. VERY rare. I would expected at least a few would still be bolted to the crank, even if the rods had broken.
stress fractures like you said in the rod could have allowed them to just pull out when the first one went, they probably all went shortly after, ripping the bolt out of the rod material that was shattering around it.
I think the material the rods were made out of wasn't what it's suppose to be. I'm sure whoever made the rods got that material from some other company, was it subpar ? That or whoever did the math vs specs for those rods mis calculated a little lol
I think a 10+ part series on a build would be great to see. Land speed high HP stuff is super interesting. And seeing how you deal with smoothing out HP curves to suit that kind of load over a long time span
Having built engines most of my life including top alcohol dragster and funny car ,a four engine tractor i built the engines for and drove i think a longer video is just fine because your content is so involved and interesting.would love to see the build on the land speed stuff also.Assuming that is a multi engine set up.Keep on going Steve i watch everyone of your videos.
First nice to know wife and daughter help you out that's amazing my wife will love hearing that. Second any content you do is amazing I personally love to see it all from start to finish even though I already understand the basics of a combustion engine. Third but not least sorry you have to deal with dumb commenters who don't have no clue of how an engine works or they don't understand how insignificant your alteration was to the wrist pin area it was nothing more than thousands for clearance. Anyhow you're an amazing family amazing builder and most of all a very patient man to have to explain to water heads just how silly and dumb their comments were, wish I live closer so I could meet you. Stay safe and God bless you and your family Steve.
From metallurgy standpoint, once the first rod let loose, the rest of the rods carried the load that couldn’t be carried and the consecutively let go one after the other quickly. It’s probably an alloy issue or a hardness issue. Y’all will get it figured out and have one hell of a product. It’s called R&D
Love watching the real pro's assemble engines. Seeing some other brands would be cool too. The dyno is the payoff, but its all the stuff prior to that that counts!!
What I thought was interesting was the separation of every rod from their journal. I've seen rod failures, but it's usually only one or two. And not always having the caps failing away from the crank. Very unusual, indeed.
If even a hint of anything going wrong in the bottom end at 8500 rpm's, with a dry sump, it's metal salad. A standard oil pan will allow some carnage to settle, but dry sumps are designed to be as close to the reciprocating mass as possible
First of all I like to Thank you Steve for you integrity and showing the uncut truth of this failure. Being a machinist and fabricator I too have came across various materials that where not to spec and have also been completely blindsided by their failures. Keep up the outstanding work. With out failure and pushing the limits we will never know our true potential.👊🏽
Enjoy all your videos. I would like to see that land speed engine from start to finish as a series of videos. The NA bbc would be cool to compare what you do differently compared to a boosted engine.
Do you think it might have been the anodizing? Maybe changed the grain structure of the aluminum? That is the first time I have seen black aluminum rods.
They aren’t anodized. It’s a coating for thermal dispersant/oil shedding. I believe it’s one from Techline which get sprayed on and baked so I doubt it changed the grain structure.
@@paulkennedy8036 hmm... at what temperature does the baking occur... that could alter the aluminum. Maybe could undo the heat treatment that was done prior to machining.
Perhaps it wasn't related to the material or surface finish at all... Have a look at some commercially available aluminum pro-mod style rods. They look MASIVE. These other experimental ones Steve was trying look more on the lightweight end to me
@@paulkennedy8036 Is it a hot cure like powder coat? It could have upset the heat treatment. I know that on castings that are aluminum. Before and after there is a hardness difference. Age also affects the hardness of aluminum. It can be as much as 50 HB Brinell. Even long term contact with Zinc affects the hardness of aluminum.
Coming from 1320\Cleetus and then Tom Bailey your channel is refreshing seeing things from an engine builder \ supplier and racers perspective. Most of the things you mentioned would be great content, you don't need multiple channels just keep doing what you're doing
to me, the fact they all broke, and all at the same time says they exceeded the elastic limits of the material they were made from. now the question is, is it due to bad metallurgy, or bad heat treat of the material?
Agree or perhaps the aplied loads simply exceeded the design limitations of the con rod, appears that they all failed at, near too or after the top of the stroke also, typicaly piston mass is balanced out by compression force but is much higher on the exhaust stroke, plenty of little visuel failure indicators that can be followed to the root cause. Will be interesting to follow this story.👍
I still can’t get my head around how all eight would let go at the exact same time. Fatigue life among things is almost never exactly that consistent with every billet being just a hair different. The instantaneous rpm drop and then coast of the crank almost makes me wonder if the trans or some part of the drivetrain had a split second lock up, like the trans brake flicked on.
@@dochaze1 a good point, I have seen large diesel engines in earthmoving seperate the upper block at the crank waist and the big end con rod transition due to an uncomanded downshift and corupted shift inhibiting programme, even those engines still had a couple of intact rods and pistons out of the 16, I think Steve would have heard and felt the rear wheels lock up though. I don't think this is a low cycle fatigue catastrophic failure of all the rods though, which is why I suspect the rod material or design limitations have been exceeded by the normal aplied loads, this does not explain why on this pass though, perhaps the boost got turned up a bit, the data log would tell a story. 👍
Another automotive content UA-camr refers to this as _Piston McNuggets_ which seems very apt. About the same size. As a metallurgist, what I found most striking was the brittleness. It's all broken with little or no plastic deformation. I haven't spotted anything bend, twisted or warped, other than shrapnel dings. Makes me wonder what the Charpy v-notch impact strength and the elongation untill break of the material was. What was the alloy and the heat treated condition?
I agree no bending or breaking like normally seen in rod failure they basically exploded all at a certain RPM ,heat range or some other cause It all point to a batch metal problem
@@centurion726 I've stopped the video a few times to look at the pieces a little better. It appears to be all brittle fracture. That hints at either the wrong choice of material for this outlier application, or the wrong choice for heat treatment, again for these power levels Steve throws at it. Or both. A correct choice of material and heat treatment, but a wrong batch or a bad heat treatment is less likely, but still a possible scenario. It's also possibe that, due to a material mix-up, the rods were not made from the intended material.
It’s Aluminum. The impact toughness is shart. Bad aging equals low yield equals more plastic deformation equals accumulate plastic damage equals bad LCF. LCF failure like that can happen back to back very quickly in rotating equipment. Small standard deviations at low cycles.
@@rjjablo As I mentioned in another reply: improper heat treatment is possible, but not very likely. More likely (see @5:44 _"You know, these rods have never been in this style motor before"_ ) this is a case of material and heat treatment not being up to the kind of power levels at play.
Hi Steve, im here in UK. I will watch any of your videos related to anything engine/ or manufacturing of parts. Found your billet videos truly amazing. I have the utmost respect for people like yourself who are so clever & experienced, yet have their feet still so firmly on the ground & come across as such a genuinely passionate person in what they do.
I would love to see a video of you detailing the history of your company. How you got involved in cars, what were the first cars you modified, how it all went from there including where you reached a point where you decided to make your own engines. That would be a fascinating video!
Absolutely. After 30 years......maybe a book!
I heard he started by making engines for Escobars desert runners and that’s how he made his millions. Now he just builds race cars
I`d like to see that too, he`s still a young man and it would be interesting to see how he rose so relatively fast, He fixed the head gasket water leaks that we struggled with 22yrs ago. Thinking outside the box
BAKKJOINT great idea that would definitely be interesting
I second this agenda.
Hell yeah, Steve!
I would love to see a series on building a Land Speed engine.
The rules you have to follow for the class you're in and how you work with those constraints. That would be cool.
Thanks for bringing us along and sharing your passion.
I totally agree!
Yes please show the V10, the land speed and any machining always good to see other engine builders thoughts and theories
I would watch every minute of an in depth engine build series from you!!!
I'd love to see more in depth videos of the assembly and machining of you're engines
Really I would love to see longer videos of everything
I think it was dirty casting of wear the aluminum come form not your fault or Vander you get them form
@@jeffreyjohnson3857 homeschooled were you?i just wonder..vander you get them form??i bet you are fire brand trump supporter and a christian nationalist.
@@jeffreyjohnson3857 I'm thinking it was a heat treat or alloy issue
it s your not you are...i think smx platform is interesting.man i wish engines like that were available when i was racing actively.i ran roots blown 538 pro stock engine and later 526 bbc pro mod type of deal.
I would love to see some metallurgy inspection report of those rods. Enjoy all your content and love your Steve tech videos.
Yeah I was about to comment the same thing.
Thinking the same along with FEA modeling results
@Coyote LOL.
yep would be interesting. my gut feeling is the post machining heat treatment for these rods was incorect and made them brittle.
@@neilgillam9919 "my gut feeling is the post machining heat treatment for these rods was incorect and made them brittle." Or, the internal engine temperature was high enough to drive additional aging of the particular alloy used. That would explain why they ran fine for several runs and then suffered what appears to be a brittle failure.
Steve please don’t worry about explaining yourself twice because of some comments, your true followers/subscribers watch your videos and understand what you’re doing and thankfully because you explain a lot we know why. Just keep putting out videos like you are giving us your opinion/experience with whatever you’re working on and I bet we’ll be happy. Thank you Steve and Kyle.
The rod failure in the Wagonmaster engine, I think can be attributed to the rod design....those "windows" milled into the beams, as opposed to the full-length relief seen on the beams of most aluminum rods. There are many possible stress points between the pin bore and the crank bore (big & small end) than in the conventional aluminum rods, as we know them. Just my thoughts. Great videos, I try to watch all of them. Thanks.
Steve, I have seen all your vids, researched you when I learned of the Devlen 16... Haters will hate and think they know. Metelergical issues is my guess on the con rod disaster, Crap happens for sure. I loved how you explained that Bailey's junk is your junk.. LOL.. My wife rolls her eyes at me how I can remember a engine /car stuff, but not what I went to the grocery store to get. Keep on doing what makes you happy.
You hit the nail on the head mate!!!
Steve has the reputation and experience and expertise that people shouldn't tell him about his own lifes work!!!
Agreed... dont need to go to self-defence... there's always a dickhead comment... I love the no holes barred truth, in the story.
I vote for the land speed build video series. Also loving the diagnosis of the failure of the wagon engine.
Same.
I remember a case of hydrogen embrittlement when our fasteners were cadmium plated. This looks very similar to our scenario even to the point of time passage after the process. As time went on, continued embrittlement was evident as bolt heads were easily broken without significant torque applied.
It appears the anodizing process has introduced imbrittlement into the rod material.
for all the rods to fail makes me think they were too hardened. i suspect either a few pistons knocked causing fractures or one chamber failed caused a pressure wave that traveled down the crank like a bump spreads a crack in the windscreen. it looks like they need more of a spring temper.
All of it Steve!!!! Love everything you guys do on the engine, chassis, and butt dyno! Love all the engine tech stuff. Love seeing the engines made out of a block of aluminum! Just love it all and the way you also show the good and the bad! The best part is you involve your son in all of it!!!
I agree, all of it. Everything you're willing to share in the shop and at the track is interesting to me.
I was a machinist for decades and I love seeing your beautifully machined engines. Maybe a time lapse of block machining. Love your videos, even the exploding rods.
Time lapse would be great. Eight hours in five minutes? Over dubbed explaining the process.
@@davidsawyer7880 pulling a KSR? I think he was the first to do that, and it just makes sense.
@@IceBergGeo Maybe David Attenborough was first(joke)!
@@davidsawyer7880 hahahaha
steve from me being a follower of your channel so long ,,, and seeing all of your content for the most part the vid,s you do are all great ,,, and informative as well just plain interesting stuff ,,, i think all that you show is second to none !!! Tony
After almost two decades of class 8 Diesel engine repair, I have seen some crazy carnage like this. Could be the grain of the aluminum, lightning pockets too deep, length making rod unstable under certain harmonics, or the guy could have just been given subpar billets. Being the first person to test the limits of a part can have some bad growing pains.
Agreed, I would love to see the Metallurgy of these rods.
Bring on the land-speed record build!!!
Love this channel and so much respect for Steve's knowledge.
God bless you all
I'm with you on that one
yes I also would like to see the land speed
Right on wat a bad ass project 👍🏽
You tell them Steve! Ignorance is bliss! I appreciate your honest and humble content you post! Keep it up man!
I'm intrigued by the land speed engine. Interested to see what it takes to build one that has to balance power/ reliability/ durability/ endurance for miles of flat out running. That's a different breed of motorsports.
I had a 400 Pontiac back in the 90s
Tollway only had two tolls between Chicago and the Wisconsin border
The 400 unwound till the carburetor stopped voluminous pull . 2.73 geared
Baddest thing to experience..
But attention to speed was shotgun I was looking forward.
I’d love to see the planning process. Customer comes to you with what they want it to do and you decide format, size, parts…all that would be real cool to see.
+1 👍
You just answered your own question Steve first time those rods had been in an engine as powerful as yours. . You’re the man to make it all good again 👍
I’m interested in a land speed car build series! The shop tour was really cool too. I like the variety of videos you do. Keep up the good work.
I would certainly be interested to see tests on the the rod material from a metallurgic perspective.
I just made the same comment without seeing yours. My apologies, I think that the vendor was sold a impure product. Seeing how all 8 rods just broke into hundreds of pieces is absolutely insane.
@@GetFuct1911 I more suspect they use a material that trades a higher fatigue life for lower absolute strength. They don't seem to claim on their website that they are suitable for 4,000HP, but do claim they have a lot of experience at the 2,000hp level.
@@bradley3549 I appreciate the further information. It makes sense why Steve said he would still use this vendor. Hopefully they will be able to make rods that can withstand the SMX power. Seeing how humble he is to not toss anyone under the bus and clearing up the keyboard mechanics was refreshing to watch. I spent 2 decades in Aviation and always kept my mouth shut unless I was 100% certain on a issue. Take care.
I just showed the video to a friend of mine, who is a metallurgist, and he actually does not think it's a material issue. He works in the industrial fan and pump industry, so he knows his business on pulling and compression forces. Nobody can obviously say anything without properly examining the material and parts, but his point is that if it had been the material, chances are more likely for individual failures and failure points that are more varied. These failed in pretty much the same places in the same way, and because of this, he thinks it's a design issue that creates a specific weak point in that area of the rod so to speak. But again, all of this is assumptions and nobody can be sure without a proper examination of the parts.
Steve, after watching the teardown. I said then that the rods failed. When every rod in an engine fails you have to blame the design or alloy and accept that they weren't up to the job. I'm sorry that the rod failure damaged that gorgeous block! Great videos!
The LSR motor would be of interest. I try to understand everything you have to say but you are on such a different level than me and I would bet many other of your subscribers that anything you have to say is greatly appreciated.
So refreshing to hear from someone as honest and genuine as you.
Looking forward to your next video no matter what it contains.
Thanks Phil Stevens
Found you from Cleetus' channel, stayed for the content. Love hearing all the in depth no BS explanations. Wish I could get a shop tour and hang out for a bit. As for the max exodus....it definitely appears to be a material issue and glad they are working with you to figure it out. I work at a Navistar dealer...seen plenty of bent rods but none that disintegrated like that
I also found this guy from the Cletus channel
I would love to see some more about your trailblazer. Also I really enjoy the build videos that are packed full of detail about why you went with a specific part and what you gain from it compared to other options.
I’d like to see more of the build up and project videos. The tuning videos are basically witchcraft to me. 😂
We want to see the entire land speed build up to and including the first runs. As for the rods, I’m guessing Kyle moved the Piston Delete button wire to the Connecting Rod delete position on the FuelTech. It happens!
Funny! Really good one! LOL!
LoL
LoL I have one of those buttons can’t ever figure out what it’s hooked to
It amazes me how you have to explain yourself, Steve! Well done sir!
Steve you are a class act. Thanks to you and your family. Best wishes. :)
Land speed engine sounds interesting. I basically like the high level of engineering and stuff involved in engines. I also really like your explinations.
Oh, if a video is longer and I have to watch it in segments then I will.
Totally agree, land speed racing sounds very different to drag racing - putting the engine under max load for 6-7 seconds or 6-7 miles will result in some differences I guess and I'd like to hear this stuff addressed. Is the engine designed the same way? Are there any specifics you need to keep in mind?
@@milanskipala7593 look at lemans racing. its way more stresses and you see what they had to do to make a motor last for over 24 hrs under load.
24 he enduro engines higher Stress than Land speed or drag engines? Don’t think so
@@needmoreboost8208 bro do you realize what you just said? 24 hrs wide open basically vs a couple miles. yes land speed cars go fast but they are usually aerodynamic and light which power isnt always the main goal. hence why they get miles to get up to speed.
lemans cars which have been known to spin over 20k rpms undergo alot more stress that people dont understand. piston acceleration destroys motors and that happens every time the piston hits top dead center and bottom dead center. at 7k rpms things get scary 10-12k much worse and after 20k its pretty terrifying. some lemans cars have many more cylinders than land speed cars. 12 cylinders at 20k rpms is insane stress on the crank. something it would never feel at 7k rpms for 2 mins or less. its a good thing your thinking power doesnt build my motors or they wouldnt last as long as they do...
Build videos are fantastic. Assembly, machining and good tech information is a treat. Eagerly awaiting your wagon to run again!
This is why I love this channel and KSR. I always walk away learning something. Also, as a guy who can't afford the nice spinny bois, a NA ground up build would be awesome!
Steve, you are a brilliant man in your field with many years of experience. I'm pretty sure you really don't need to defend yourself over parts failure. I'm positive if you did something wrong you would be the first to put your hand up & admit it. I'm so impressed with your talent & knowledge of the industry you are right at the top of your game. I have followed you since Garrett introduced you to us & the quality of your builds is very high end. Love your work Mate. Billy J.... Queensland, Australia.
I think it is possibly part defending but just as much or more wanting to educate us.
I watched the entire assembly video closer after the last video, and his assembly was meticulous and flawless. Maybe I missed something? I dont think so though. Like Steve said, I think this is a simple case of new manufacturer working on rods in a new application. I am sure this will give them a lot of important info to better their product for this specific type of application. No company would willingly/purposefully provide a bad/inferior part, especially to Steve as it does not help a business in any way shape or form. Fact is, you are not always going to get it right the first try when venturing into a new application for your products.
All of it. I never knew how diverse your projects were. Love this video!
I like watching the actual process of start to finish on a build. Watching the actual work being done start to finish. Like you're teaching the next generation how you go about building an engine.
I'm with ya!
He did it on this. Just check his videos
I’d love to see more build series videos. I also really enjoy how you went into such detail to figure out and explain your problem. Amazing how extreme an engine failure can be at that power level
Excellent videos. Thanks for your efforts. I am a GM engineer that spent 38 years in engine development. I worked directly on 5 different engine families at GM and 4 later on at Chrysler as a contract engineer Including teardowns of Viper and hellcat engines). I accutually had a reputation for root causing the failure mode in many cases so I got called in a lot to look at broken parts like yours and offer an opinion. We never made the power you do but many of our failures were just as catastrophic as we were running production engines like the supercharged Northstar Cadillac V engine and the 427 LS engines at peak power and RPM for HUNDREDS of hours. I have walked into dyno cells with the crank hanging down below the block so I know what carnage is! One tip I could offer that often was the final clue is to take all the broken parts(including the rod ends) and treat them like a jig saw puzzle and "put them back together lying on a table. This obviously takes a lot of time particularily trying to get the rod bolts back into the puzzle in the proper rod, etc. Doing this you may notice a pattern and/or discover which rod broke first. As simple as it sounds doing the puzzle putting the pieces back together in an orderly fashion was my "secrect" analysis providing the clue no one else noticed. Once I had all the pieces back together but could not find one rod bolt....we found it by sweeping up the dyno cell and cleaning out the crevices in the dyno room bed plate. That turned out to be the only broken rod bolt that wasn't bent indicating it was the first to break and then caused all the collateral damage.
When you showed those rods about a month ago I chuckled then and said " grenades" out loud watching the video. Too much lightening pockets causing way too many stress risers and thin sections in the loaded part of the rod. A finite analysis of that rod would show huge stresses at the corners of the lightening pockets. I would guess when the beam is heavily loaded the walls of all the pockets are going to distribute load to the corners of the pockets which is likely the initial crack initiation location. Have a cad engineer do a finite analysis (computer stress analysis) of the rod and it will be pretty obvious why no one makes rods like that before. that part had obviously never seen a finite analysis for stress or you would never have put them in an engine. I am amazed they lasted as long as they did and it seems to comply with the fact that they all seemed to break at the same time. It would not take much for one to break and collaterally takeout all the others instantly as they were on the verge anyway. I think you mentioned the rods were anodized. Have a metallurgist look at the grain structure of the rod material. Hard anodizing causes a problem called hydrogen embrittlement as some hydrogen is driven into the surface molecules of the material which act as stress risers. ANY hard anodized part like that would need a deep thermal stress reliving operation after anodizing. This would be done by baking the rods at 300 F or thereabouts for 4 or 5 hours to eliminate the possible ( likely) hydrogen embrittlement.
If I had one guess I would put the money on hydrogen embrittlement with what I have seen in your video.
Thank you for sharing.
Hydrogen embrittement is a great suspect, in Steve's previous building video has shown the lack of gloves or other means of contamination prevention that support the issues. Chemical and electrical interactions inside engines is a great deal that is often overlooked but material can change properties with friction including internal stress friction and vibrations and natural harmonic of the parts.
The more I look the more I invest in a laboratory for testing and documentation, small shop picking on big problems we need to solve for the community.
Testing information and resources useful.
I know you mostly do boosted applications, but I’d love to hear a dyno session with a 9,000 rpm naturally aspirated engine if one comes through the shop.
Not "mostly" boosted. That's all they do
I loved seeing the engine build that unfortunately ended badly. I would love to see the machining that goes into these builds and everything it takes to make these things work. Normal people like me don't get to see this super high end stuff and it's totally fascinating. Thanks for sharing the bad with the good and try not to focus on the negative youtube comments.
Mr. Morris you are a true engine master... I watched all the wagon videos.. I truly believe something in the composition of the rod material was the culprit. Not shaming rhe rod maker in any way. However in these trying times you gotta take what you can get. Thanks for your time and knowledge
I saw the previous video, and I'm shocked at what happened. That's crazy how every rod broke the same way. I never thought the engine wasn't assembled correctly. My initial thought was there could be something wrong with the process in making the rods, or the material itself was compromised in some way. You could send out a piece of a rod to get it inspected for grain structure and material analysis. That's where I'd start anyway. I recently saw something that I found very interesting about a specific rod type. They were carbon fiber and supposedly unbreakable. What are your thoughts on that, and would you ever try them?
I had a similar thought too. Given that all of the rods failed at basically the same time, and with the same failure mode right at the highest stress part of the rod I would be willing to bet that the failure was caused by either a metallurgical error (e.g. the alloy had too much or too little of some component or other) or during the forging of the billet (my understanding of billet rods is that the billet itself is forged in order to shrink grain size before machining) something happened that caused the grain structure to be very large, and therefore particularly brittle.
IMO, carbon rods will be very difficult to produce, and they certainly wouldn’t be unbreakable in an application like this. There are 3 primary problems (that I’m aware of) with carbon rods.
The first is that engine oil becomes acidic over time. That acidity, especially combined with the heat of a running engine will eat most (maybe even all?) epoxy resins that would be used for laying up the carbon fiber. Also, in the heat of an engine, the epoxy used to hold the carbon together will (generally, I’m sure there are exceptions) get softer, which means the rod wouldn’t be able to take as much power.
Secondly, carbon fiber, while incredibly strong, would have a fatigue life in an engine like this. The stresses of running a 4,000hp motor would almost certainly cause microscopic fractures in the fibers throughout the rod. While on lower load applications (like bicycles, or hypercars), carbon is effectively a non-fatiguing material (in this case it just means that the fatigue life is so long you’d be unlikely to run into it), in a crazy application like this, you would definitely be running up into the fatigue life of the carbon. Additionally, because carbon fiber composites are anisotropic materials, the actual life span of a rod would be very hard to predict/plan for. Plus, most damage that does occur would likely be either internal (from layers delaminating) and/or microscopic, you’d need to use an ultrasound in order to actually determine if the rod is still good, which would necessitate a full tear down that I suspect would need to be more frequent than with even aluminum rods (and each rod would be WAY more expensive).
Thirdly, it’s extremely difficult to mold carbon into the shapes that are actually needed for a connecting rod. Carbon does not like tight corners, at all and can cause pools of epoxy to form (in the case of infused parts) or even full on voids (particularly in the case of pre-preg materials). Additionally, during the curing process the carbon can shift or bend slightly, depending on the layup and this could conceivably mean that there is a lot of static stress just waiting to cause a failure in an extreme load. Dimensional accuracy and concentricity are also things that can be difficult to achieve with carbon, especially because I would imagine that you wouldn’t want any carbon at the surface of the part (which basically means you can’t machine the rod to spec). Carbon is extremely abrasive, and if any of it is sticking out of the epoxy, it will happily grind through bearings, or just about anything else it comes into contact with.
I’m sure it could be done, I’m just not sure that carbon rods would actually end up being cost effective/actually any better than what we already have, especially when considering the fact that carbon is still relatively unpredictable in terms of maximum loading for just about anything other than a flat plate.
That article about the carbon fiber rods is fake news unfortunately, it's been floating around the internet for several years.
Carbon fiber wouldn't work. The material properties aren't good for an application with significant heat.
@Kevin Kaminski I worked in the forging industry for 20yrs. The main reason why forged parts are so strong isn't because it makes the cellular structure smaller. A piece of material before forging while strong, it has a random cell structure, and that can cause weakness in certain areas. The forging process aligns the cell structure and will make it much stronger.
I'll admit, up until the other day, I didn't even think carbon rods were possible. I was only going on the post I saw about them and wanted other opinions.
@@tomlompa6598 That’s really cool! From what I’ve seen/read, the grain structure being smaller does at least play some part in the strength/toughness of the metal - up to a point (too small a grain structure being less strong). I’ve seen some manufacturers of forged rods claim that their forgings are stronger than billet rods of a similar weight, because the forging process gives them the ability to control the grain structure/alignment throughout the entire part, and that they can orient the grain in the strongest way for each segment of the part. Supposedly the (I assume) entirely uniform grain structure of billet parts means that they end up being slightly weaker overall. In your experience, would you say that there’s any truth to that? Or would you say that the fully aligned grain structure of a billet that is then machined down should end up being stronger?
That “Mass Exodus “ is the craziest thing I’ve seen happen to an engine. I would be interested in seeing some of the machining and modifications you go through on some of those awesome builds you do. Thank you
Keep up the great work.
Steve. What you are doing now, is what got me interested in the first place.
I like to hear your thought process underways in the things you do. You do it very well as you do.
Ohh and by the way those that mean you need to explain everything you do, is wrong.
If you feel for it, explain, or else, it is what it is....Your the mann.
Steve, you're an elite engine builder, I'll watch pretty much anything you upload engine related. The build series of the land speed engine sounds cool. I really like the more technical stuff. I enjoy learning about building engines!
Seconded!
I appreciate the fact that you do not make assumptions. You go through a process before you say anything. And that you are honorable and treat others with respect.
Love all the content y'all put out. I have learned a bunch.
Thank you
Really nice to see you go out of your way to point out that the con rod failure is not a failure of the vendor to acknowledge the material issue, and correct and improve their product.
I’m all in for engine machining and build videos. Love the detailed more technical stuff. It’s hard earned knowledge. Thank you for sharing so much.
Steve, really appreciate you taking your time out your very busy schedules and making these videos for us explaining and teaching everyone. Some serious time and knowledge from you and your guys. I hate when people assume and start blaming others as you have shown with these prototype parts failures.
I've been cnc machinist since 1988. I would like to see more machinist stuff. Thanks for sharing, Steve. Love your videos
Heat treatment process could have taken them beyond T26 specifications.
But for them to shatter like they have it’s unique.
I worked at CASTALLOY South Australia 🇦🇺 as a toolmaker. We made all the Harley Davidson wheels.
Exactly, he found the limit then some. R&D isn't for everyone. The haters should be thanking Steve for taking chances so they dont have to.
T26? I highly doubt that. they maybe a non heat treatable alloy. 7000 series
Love pretty much all your vids regardless of content. The way you set it up like you’re teaching is really great. Always a learning experience on this channel. 👍👍
Thanks again for the update on the rods. I appreciate your patience when others are so fast to know what's going on and have not even researched your channel. Keep up the great work and positive attitude on how business and even non business relationships work.
Steve, the logical analysis I have is that the rods you had in there had a different level of impurity within the metals, used during construction forming a small weakness.
Bet the entire batch was cut out of the same blank stock.
I agree that it has to be some sort of impurity or even the heat treat process, if Aragon gets low during heat treat it will mess up hardness.
To me seems impurity or soft or brittle problem.
Interested to find out
I would watch any of those series you are suggesting. All of them sound fascinating
I would love to see the whole process from start to finish with one of your SMX or even just a regular build non-billet brodix block is fine too just love the when process and you've always been behind some of the best out there so I'd love to see it all not just the end of when things go wrong lol
Yes we would love to watch full build videos longer and your technical know how. Awesome videos. Keep up good work. God Bless..
Steve, I'd love to learn more about the land speed record car through a series of videos. It would be cool to know some of the differences in the engine for that type of build vs a drag car/street car build and so on. On the rod failure, I'm fairly certain it is a metallurgical problem, most likely in the heat treat process or the chemical makeup of the material. One rod likely fractured and created harmonics the wiped out the other rods. And to add to your comments about the bolts not being torqued, the bearings would look terrible, not clean like the ones in the video. Keep up the great work and videos.
The big ends steve was holding are mainly the result of uncontrolled rods....not the actual breakage point
@fordfan03; Your comments are clearly among those which indicate Your lacking within proper information, knowledge of physics, materials, metallurgy, engineering, though You have assessed the issue properly to be within the connecting rod materials, metallurgy - only through proper steps, process, methods of, with, within investigation, measurement, assessment, evaluation, differentiation, discernment, analysis, concepts, principles, determination can the cause of the connecting rods to break apart be determined.
->Clearly the evidence shown is certainly, absolutely insufficient for any proper expert to determine the cause.
->the evidence, logic, reason within the concepts, principles of materials, metallurgy, physics and especially within the concepts and principles of resonance, are clearly, obviously in opposition, counter indicative, counter any proper logic, reason, sense.
=>Thus, these possible claims are clearly, obviously, certainly, absolutely just incorrect, faulty, 'poor guesses', false, nonsense.
Your comments are one of two posted which attempt this clearly incorrect, faulty, 'poor guesses', false, nonsense claim with 'resonance'
If You desire, please see my more detailed comment to @J Gregory Kine; about his false, faulty ideas - specifically about 'resonance'
- it contains a more proper description of the evidence and necessary details for a proper assessment, evaluation, analysis, determination along with areas to investigate, measure, assess, evaluate, etc. within a proper process, method, etc. which proper physicists, chemists.material experts, metallurgists and engineers proceed, with, use, and follow -> never 'guess work', estimation, presumptions, assumptions, 'trial and error', etc. -> lack of knowledge, concepts, principles, etc.
-these comments also include positive comments and suggestion to Steve about and determination for and with his posted vlogs along with some of my background, basis, knowledge, expertise.
All The Best and Much Success in Your Quest, Health Happiness, and Well Being. 😊
Sincerely ☺
@@newtonfirefly3584 Please explain why these rods failed. Thank You!
Love to see a land speed motor build as well as your company history from start to current you are great at your job thanks
I was going to say the crank was a hair out of balance but after watching the first video sounds like a design adjustment is need on those rods luv your vids keep them coming the longer the better!! peace out!
Love all you do Steve. Everything to do with engines/cars is interesting. Just keep going where you feel your being led to go. There's always something of interest to learn from
I’ve gotta say I love the format now. A solid mix of engine builds, tech stuff and racing. Keep it up!
I absolutely agree with your wife. The rest of your videos you should be wearing Frank Gorshin's old "Riddler" costume from the 1960's Batman television series. Then we'll rig a wire that allows you to swing down from the rafters and jump in front of the camera with the first riddle: Riddle me this. A billet block with 8 bent valves how can this be? We'll storyboard the whole thing a week in advance. You'll love it. You're gonna be a huge star.
Steve, it's such a pleasure to see a creative genius at work; to that end, I'll watch every video you put out!
I enjoy watching the engine builds, the dyno testing, and the process of building the race car. I'd like to see some info on how you plan an engine with a customer and arriving at a budget for their respective builds.
Keep those videos coming!
absolutely interested in the assembly of the engines and the machining. And of course not just the what, but the why things are the way they are.
Hey Steve, I guess this is more of a Stevetech question but, I am curious to get you opinion on under square vs square vs over square engines with the pros and cons. Also, when does over square become too much bore? Could there be a max ratio? ie not worth the piston friction. Thanks for the content, I would watch long form multi episode build ups and projects; especially big block ford projects. Awesome stuff!
F1 has some crazy over square piston cylinder to stroke ratio
@@bradenmolloy7443 Very true thank you for your reply. I will have to take a look at that but what I dont know is in a drag and drive application what is good bad and ugly with a giant bore and a shmedium crank.
@@jimdownes9903
The bigger the bore, the bigger the chamber, and the bigger the valves you can cram in there which equals more air potential.
That's my understanding, but I'm sure Steve will add a 'but' to what I think, lol.
@@Deuce1550 The 'but' is that for a given displacement and compression ratio a bigger bore means a wider, flatter chamber shape. It takes longer for the flame front to travel across the wider chamber and therefore you need more ignition advance, plus there is more surface area for heat losses (lower efficiency) and (for a given piston-to-cylinder clearance) more crevice volume, which is bad for emissions.
As a result, you can't just increase bore:stroke ratio without limit. 2:1 is a practical upper bound for most purposes, even very high revving motorcycle engines are usually less oversquare than that- e.g. Ducati's Superquadro runs 1.84:1.
@@nerd1000ify yes very good addition there. Semi hemi heads (Harley V-twin etc) allow bigger valves without piston diameter increase, but then valve to valve clearance also becomes a factor.
Love your stuff, Steve! Here's my armchair quarterback of this situation. I think this was a cyclic fatigue stress failure. Aluminum has a finite life which is a function of stress/strain and number of cycles. You heat treat aluminum for strength, but the increased stress reduces number of cycles to failure.
Also, you might suggest to your vendor to go over their heat treatment process and records. I've seen heat treating done improperly cause similar results.
“The mass exodus” sounds like a great book title…obviously a end of days type of storyline lol
It certainly was end of days for them rods....😏👌
They was the weakest link.
Steve took that carnage like a absolute boss…I think I would have had to go on a instant vacation after removing that oil pan 😂
I bought videos from you when that was the only way to get tuning videos and I have never missed an upload or dyno video you have put out. I believe if you started a series on high performance fence painting I would watch those as well. Thank you for all the work and the great videos.
We definitely are interested in longer videos. Love the tech and the breakdowns you provide. Nothing flashy , just facts. Would love to see more on that land speed car for sure .
Good stuff Steve , be interesting to find the real cause of that catastrophic failure unfortunate be it- also be great to see other builds like big block ford and V10 viper I have a special interest in!
Thanks the content good stuff!
J
Steve, i love all your content, i have yet to rebuild more than a 1 cylinder ATV engine but you make it seem so easy. I love all of the technical content and how easy you make it all seem! Keep up the great work!
I would personally LOVE to see how you make your smaller engines handle so much hp. Also very interested in start to finish and machining. Love the channel
Really fascinating stuff Steve! It's intersting how all the rods seem to have failed in a very similar way and apparently all at once, hopefully between you and the manufacturer you can figure it out. You don't need me to tell you this kind of thing happens when you're pushing the limits but the internet doesn't appreciate that 😆
Keep up the great work 👍
Wow ! What a shop ...I would love to see fool engine builds .... you are the man .... great explanations 😁🇺🇸🏆
Love your content Steve, I’ll be curious to see what the manufacturer of these rods come back to you with. I previously worked (in Australia) for the local GM subsidiary Holden, in their warranty returns Dept. We would regularly see blown up engines for one reason or another and it was a great exercise in diagnosing what the “root cause” may have been. Whether it was oil supply/contamination, premature bearing failure, over rev or failure of a Conrod bolt, this engine of yours (obviously) doesn’t compare with a stock LS which we used to see regularly but the process of determining the cause shouldn’t prove to be a huge mystery, with some detailed examination, especially by a metallurgist or a materials specialist. Love the channel and keep up the great work.
I want to see the land speed motor build up. Also I'd like to see the making of parts start to finish. Really about anything I learn something from every video
Your truly an excellent honest man! I truly appreciate your education and your videos for sure
I think this is pretty cool we get to see all the projects you're working on. I know KSR Kevin does like monthly shop updates where he gives the status of many projects he has going that don't always get full videos.
I'll be years before I get anywhere near this level of power, but I love absorbing all the knowledge you give us.
Steve ABSOLUTELY LOVE the whole process from solid aluminum block to Dyno the tech stuff is priceless info from such a legend
Hi Steve, love to watch your videos. Lots of respect to a person able to design so much horsepower into a combustion engine. I used to build built VW engines and that was a blast. I would like to see ( and I know this is basics ) the thought process of for example , a customer saying he/she wants so many horsepower out of so many cubic inches and what goes into that process. Thanks again and sorry to the wagon and the problems it developed.
New subscriber but have been following you for years. I was wondering why go aluminum rod on your wagon in stead of a titanium rod ? Aluminum work hardens after hard runs I’m very surprised at the distance you put on the motor. Well my best guess at the rods scattering was service limit exceeded due to work hardening fatigue. I would love to see you build same engine with titanium rods and see how long it lasts. I understand the reasons for an aluminum rod but not from a longevity stand point. Well sir love your engines and all the effort you pour into motorsports. I can’t wait to see your next videos!
I'm no engine builder but I've never seen all 8 rods blow up like that. My semi educated guess would be bad rods due to being too brittle.
yeah, rod faliure is a fact, why? well, thats a better question... something for a material expert to look on in the microscope on
Which after watching the video makes sense after he said he was using rods from a new manufacturer.
Yeah. If they where all cut from the same piece of stock. The weak spot seemed to be the exact same location on all of them.
@@mrray55 that or the aluminum alloy was too hard, making them too brittle to hold up to the forces of that monster of an engine.
Id assume the same. I also would add its probably not just the rods. Im guessing just a bad cast or something with the hardening/annealing process. Uncle Tonys Garage has a good video showing a brand new break rotor that came shattered in 3-4 pieces in the box. Either companies are rushing the process due to demand or just got missed.
Thank you so much for all the info and transparency, absolute Legend! ty Sir!
I would question the metallurgy of the aluminium. They may have stretched too far (past design specifications) or just failed due to stress fractures and the relative brittle nature of aluminium. All 8 would lead me to believe a mfg defect (bad billet batch). I would also question the rod bolt quality since they ALL came off the crank. VERY rare. I would expected at least a few would still be bolted to the crank, even if the rods had broken.
stress fractures like you said in the rod could have allowed them to just pull out when the first one went, they probably all went shortly after, ripping the bolt out of the rod material that was shattering around it.
I think the material the rods were made out of wasn't what it's suppose to be. I'm sure whoever made the rods got that material from some other company, was it subpar ? That or whoever did the math vs specs for those rods mis calculated a little lol
I think a 10+ part series on a build would be great to see. Land speed high HP stuff is super interesting. And seeing how you deal with smoothing out HP curves to suit that kind of load over a long time span
Good Machinest are very hard to come by in the Pacific Northwest. Love to see good practical Machinest practice in the channel! Thanks Steve
Having built engines most of my life including top alcohol dragster and funny car ,a four engine tractor i built the engines for and drove i think a longer video is just fine because your content is so involved and interesting.would love to see the build on the land speed stuff also.Assuming that is a multi engine set up.Keep on going Steve i watch everyone of your videos.
I would love to see the engine builds from start to finish. The viper stuff looks really cool too.
We are thankful for any thing you show us Steve, keep it up!
First nice to know wife and daughter help you out that's amazing my wife will love hearing that. Second any content you do is amazing I personally love to see it all from start to finish even though I already understand the basics of a combustion engine. Third but not least sorry you have to deal with dumb commenters who don't have no clue of how an engine works or they don't understand how insignificant your alteration was to the wrist pin area it was nothing more than thousands for clearance. Anyhow you're an amazing family amazing builder and most of all a very patient man to have to explain to water heads just how silly and dumb their comments were, wish I live closer so I could meet you. Stay safe and God bless you and your family Steve.
From metallurgy standpoint, once the first rod let loose, the rest of the rods carried the load that couldn’t be carried and the consecutively let go one after the other quickly. It’s probably an alloy issue or a hardness issue. Y’all will get it figured out and have one hell of a product. It’s called R&D
Rebuild and Destroy
Load comes from the individual pistons. How would the “load” be carried over to another rod?
Not true. Once a rod breaks that cylinder stops contributing so the engine drops 1/8th power. There is no load for the other 7 to pick up.
@@totalyep exactly
Engine build and assembly videos and some dyno runs would get me interested. Honestly, it's all interesting. Thanks for your time.
Love watching the real pro's assemble engines. Seeing some other brands would be cool too. The dyno is the payoff, but its all the stuff prior to that that counts!!
What I thought was interesting was the separation of every rod from their journal. I've seen rod failures, but it's usually only one or two. And not always having the caps failing away from the crank. Very unusual, indeed.
If even a hint of anything going wrong in the bottom end at 8500 rpm's, with a dry sump, it's metal salad. A standard oil pan will allow some carnage to settle, but dry sumps are designed to be as close to the reciprocating mass as possible
First of all I like to Thank you Steve for you integrity and showing the uncut truth of this failure. Being a machinist and fabricator I too have came across various materials that where not to spec and have also been completely blindsided by their failures. Keep up the outstanding work. With out failure and pushing the limits we will never know our true potential.👊🏽
Enjoy all your videos. I would like to see that land speed engine from start to finish as a series of videos. The NA bbc would be cool to compare what you do differently compared to a boosted engine.
Do you think it might have been the anodizing? Maybe changed the grain structure of the aluminum? That is the first time I have seen black aluminum rods.
Came here to say the same thing... definitely changes the surface for sure, makes it porous that's how the dye penetrates the surface.
They aren’t anodized. It’s a coating for thermal dispersant/oil shedding. I believe it’s one from Techline which get sprayed on and baked so I doubt it changed the grain structure.
@@paulkennedy8036 hmm... at what temperature does the baking occur... that could alter the aluminum. Maybe could undo the heat treatment that was done prior to machining.
Perhaps it wasn't related to the material or surface finish at all... Have a look at some commercially available aluminum pro-mod style rods. They look MASIVE. These other experimental ones Steve was trying look more on the lightweight end to me
@@paulkennedy8036 Is it a hot cure like powder coat? It could have upset the heat treatment. I know that on castings that are aluminum. Before and after there is a hardness difference. Age also affects the hardness of aluminum. It can be as much as 50 HB Brinell. Even long term contact with Zinc affects the hardness of aluminum.
Coming from 1320\Cleetus and then Tom Bailey your channel is refreshing seeing things from an engine builder \ supplier and racers perspective. Most of the things you mentioned would be great content, you don't need multiple channels just keep doing what you're doing
to me, the fact they all broke, and all at the same time says they exceeded the elastic limits of the material they were made from. now the question is, is it due to bad metallurgy, or bad heat treat of the material?
I’m thinking it’s just a case of the guy that he got them from over estimating the capabilities of his rods
Agree or perhaps the aplied loads simply exceeded the design limitations of the con rod, appears that they all failed at, near too or after the top of the stroke also, typicaly piston mass is balanced out by compression force but is much higher on the exhaust stroke, plenty of little visuel failure indicators that can be followed to the root cause. Will be interesting to follow this story.👍
I still can’t get my head around how all eight would let go at the exact same time. Fatigue life among things is almost never exactly that consistent with every billet being just a hair different. The instantaneous rpm drop and then coast of the crank almost makes me wonder if the trans or some part of the drivetrain had a split second lock up, like the trans brake flicked on.
@@dochaze1 a good point, I have seen large diesel engines in earthmoving seperate the upper block at the crank waist and the big end con rod transition due to an uncomanded downshift and corupted shift inhibiting programme, even those engines still had a couple of intact rods and pistons out of the 16, I think Steve would have heard and felt the rear wheels lock up though. I don't think this is a low cycle fatigue catastrophic failure of all the rods though, which is why I suspect the rod material or design limitations have been exceeded by the normal aplied loads, this does not explain why on this pass though, perhaps the boost got turned up a bit, the data log would tell a story. 👍
Another automotive content UA-camr refers to this as _Piston McNuggets_ which seems very apt. About the same size.
As a metallurgist, what I found most striking was the brittleness. It's all broken with little or no plastic deformation. I haven't spotted anything bend, twisted or warped, other than shrapnel dings. Makes me wonder what the Charpy v-notch impact strength and the elongation untill break of the material was. What was the alloy and the heat treated condition?
I agree no bending or breaking like normally seen in rod failure they basically exploded all at a certain RPM ,heat range or some other cause
It all point to a batch metal problem
Improperly Heat Treated would be my guess
@@centurion726 I've stopped the video a few times to look at the pieces a little better. It appears to be all brittle fracture.
That hints at either the wrong choice of material for this outlier application, or the wrong choice for heat treatment, again for these power levels Steve throws at it. Or both.
A correct choice of material and heat treatment, but a wrong batch or a bad heat treatment is less likely, but still a possible scenario. It's also possibe that, due to a material mix-up, the rods were not made from the intended material.
It’s Aluminum. The impact toughness is shart. Bad aging equals low yield equals more plastic deformation equals accumulate plastic damage equals bad LCF. LCF failure like that can happen back to back very quickly in rotating equipment. Small standard deviations at low cycles.
@@rjjablo As I mentioned in another reply: improper heat treatment is possible, but not very likely.
More likely (see @5:44 _"You know, these rods have never been in this style motor before"_ ) this is a case of material and heat treatment not being up to the kind of power levels at play.
Hi Steve, im here in UK. I will watch any of your videos related to anything engine/ or manufacturing of parts. Found your billet videos truly amazing. I have the utmost respect for people like yourself who are so clever & experienced, yet have their feet still so firmly on the ground & come across as such a genuinely passionate person in what they do.
A complete build would be great.
Thanks for all the great info.