"I Believe Because I'm Human" - Debunking Bad Arguments for God | Matt Dillahunty + Jimmy Snow
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- Опубліковано 26 сер 2024
- Lazaro calls in to explain why he believes in God. His first reasons are that he is human and animals don't believe in God. The hosts point out that being human does not necessarily lead to belief in God. Lazaro then cites creation and mortality as reasons. When pushed on how exactly creation points to God, Lazaro cannot provide a clear argument. On mortality, he simply states humans cannot live forever on Earth.
The hosts explain these are not good arguments, as they do not provide exclusive reasoning that gets one from the premise to the conclusion of God's existence. Lazaro struggles when challenged to provide good reasoning, instead relying on the Bible. However, he admits he has no way of proving the Bible is divinely inspired.
Towards the end, Lazaro acknowledges most people believe due to fear of death and sunk costs, not good reasoning. The hosts emphasize that wanting to believe something doesn't make it true. Lazaro is unable to come up with exclusive reasoning for his God claim, suggesting his belief stems from non-rational motives.
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Matt takes a lot of heat for being impatient, but the second he found an honest inquiry, he became supremely patient and caring
He just wants his interlocutor to answer his questions, and when they do, he engages in conversation.
Exactly, Matt is actually very patient. He just doesnt tolerate people trying to bs him, and he shouldnt
Agree…he honestly tries where I would use hang up. But he saw or heard something in Lazaro and I’m so glad he did.
It's fun to listen to the same terrible arguments get shot down 20 different ways but it's unbelievably frustrating to come up with 20 different ways to shoot it down only to be talked over and not listened to in the first place.
While I understand his frustration, I find his proclivity to yell "shut up" at people off-putting. He is a self-proclaimed "expert" at doing what he does in discussions with people who are barely at a tee ball level of both knowledge of the subject and skill at debate. Not to mention they're talking about believing in invisible sky faeries. There isn't a sound, logical, rational argument that can be made to support that belief.
What a satisfying conversation. Lazaro is on his way out. And he knows it.
No I doubt it. Seems to me more often people like him think about it for a few minutes and when he doesn't have any opposition to his thoughts he will circle back around to some variation of a debunked argument like the watch maker and then justify that he is right and will swear to himself that he will construct a better argument amd then call Matt back and win religion this time and earn his golden key to heaven.
@@danielessex2162We know this is BS because most atheists in the west are former theists. This means it’s a strong possibility that someone who does believe in god can recover.
He knows it and it scares the piss out of him. You can hear it in his voice. At this point he will either continue on his journey or backtrack 🤞🏾
He's at the "just shrug and say ya believe it BCUZ..." part of deconversion.
He may know it but he doesn’t want to face it.😈
The Bible is evidence of religion, not God.
Oh man, that's a good one.
That's going to break a few brains, it's so logical and true.
I'm going to drop this like a bomb the next time I argue with an over- the - top theist who is convinced God exists and he KNOWS the real truth about religion.
He also has never heard of the Trinity, or sat in a church pew for hours, bored shitless.
In his perfect understanding
of religion, true believers don't
have to do that, right?
This little gem is gonna cook what little Grey matter stil rattles around in his skull,
in real time.
Thanks for sharing, you made my day.
😂
Well said. Simple, concise and right on point 👍
...
However... I fesr it's still too complex for Theists to grasp.
Big difference, so many ignore it
Idk why the pushback on the Bible being dismissed as evidence for God?
Maybe it’s not good evidence, but it could be revelatory.
If a God existed, and intervened with humans at one point, and they wrote about it. It could be viewed as a piece of evidence.
The same way atheists argue that there’s not many extra biblical sources referencing Jesus. Why look at the lack of evidence for that instance as evidence against his existence, yet not look at the Bible as a form of revelatory evidence for God?
I’m not a Christian nor do i think the Bible is good evidence, but I disagree heavily with this point that it’s not ‘evidence’ for God.
Well said!
Wow. Kudos to Lazaro. That kind of honesty is wicked hard! My favorite time to watch is when Matt and Jimmy are able to rephrase the conversation to help the caller work backwards, demonstrating all the smaller steps that the caller has erroneously accepted as presupposed facts. 🎉🎉🎉
,.,
As an atheist, this was a satisfying conversation, but I think most importantly is that this guy sounds like a genuine nice guy. Like I probably wouldn't mind being friends with this guy. Props to you Lazaro regardless of weather you leave your religionor not.
That's the main reason it wentt on so long, they let them talk unless they're being dishonest or particularly vile
Lazaro
@haywardjeblomey6505 Thanks lad. Corrected.
Lol yeah I’d rather be friends with Lazaro more than Matt. Matt’s a genius and I respect him a lot for what he’s done, but I couldn’t imagine talking to that insufferable douchebag for more than like 5 minutes.
*whether
Weather = rain, sun, snow etc.
Whether = "even if this or that happens" / whatever
That was a good call. I like how it reversed itself. Like how Matt complemented him for starting to use reason. Really allowed him to open up more.
My pastor went out of his way each week to point out that all the other gods were dead, but ours was alive because Bible obviously. It made so much sense to me when I was in the pew, but looking back, I can’t believe I took spiritual advice from the parent that couldn’t help me with my homework from 4th grade on.
I swear, I’m so sick of hearing theists refer to gods as “dead” or “alive.” Unless gods are mortal in your mythology, it’s total nonsense.
I never understood why this god couldn’t just start a new planet, rather than the flood. Snap his fingers, new garden new Adam, and new Eve, but noooo god wants to take 40 days, and use water to drown everything but those on the ark?
What a dumb god!
@@maynardlikethecandy5347 - not dumb, just bored. Like a little kid playing in the dirt with toy soldiers, then making it rain by blasting them with a garden hose.
.
_"He's not the God, he's a very naughty boy"_ 🤣
In short you were scammed. That's what religion is. That is why you have the feeling of being a victim because that is what you are. Your parents may not have done this maliciously. They were duped as well. Just consider yourself fortunate that you are now able to see through it all.
@@johncoops6897 "he's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy" is the actual quote.. life of brian.
A lot of this is also why I could never believe.
As a kid when we would drive to church we would pass all the other churches, and I would ask, "why don't we go to that church. It's closer." And I was told they are wrong. When I asked why are they wrong and we are right, my dad told me "faith".
I was so confused because they also have faith, but their faith was wrong. It was then I learned that faith is not reliable.
@trishbeason5074 - this same fact is what does it for me. It seems to be a glaring inconsistency. I try to point it out to religious friends: These other religions are just as certain as you are that their beliefs that are contradictory to yours are true, and like you, can give all of the reasons they were trained to give as to why they are correct. Someone (at least) MUST be wrong. Did you win the lottery and happen to pick the right one? At that time, they usually change scope of their claim to a more deistic god and claim "well that must be pointing to something". Meanwhile they continue "Genuflecting" and doing other specific silly actions that only apply to their particular faith. They have been trained NOT to exercise REASON.
@@Specialeffecks From my experience, Christians sometimes use this non-argument: "Jesus was the only one who resurrected and claimed he was God".
If I was a religious parent, those would be some scary questions.
@@juanausensi499. Coming back from death/being resurrected is not a Jesus-only special. Plenty of gods die. Some die and resurrect in a yearly cycle. Dionysus was lured away, torn to pieces, boiled and mostly eaten by the Titans but was resurrected after the Titans were slain. Inanna/Ishtar descended into the underworld and was killed there, but came back - millennia before Jesus.
@@advorak8529 I know that, but Christians ignore that.
I'm human? I was born into the JW cult. I was born atheist. They could not, no matter how hard they tried, get me to believe in gods. I stayed in my organic form. Refused baptism at 12. So I am not human because nobody was able to turn a switch in my mind as a child? We are not born believing in gods so it is not a natural human condition.
I agree that all humans are born Athiest. I find it absolutely abhorrent that religions exist only to convert the innocents to their faith.
My dad was JW but didnt raise me in it, but I was born atheist; like you say. Very nice story
JWs intrigue me immensely, I love watching their apostates expose the CULTure. Glad you got out💖
@@emmaearhart I'm a recently deconverted JW. One of these days I'll make my own video about it. In the meantime if you have any questions I'm happy to help. I'm an atheist BTW
Props to Lazaro. He got shouted into submission and was still open to learn!
Avid watcher, non-commentor here. This was one of the best conversations I've heard in the multitude of hours I've watched on this channel. Incredible for the deconstructioners.
I’m 12 minutes in. Hopefully this becomes more than a man screaming and cussing.
@@jesse14 I think we have different definitions of "screaming". Also, why do a couple of bad no-no words upset you more than the caller not honestly answering questions?
@@jesse14sometimes it takes special language for these ummm non thinkers
Of all the videos of this kind I've seen, this is by far the closest to the caller having a "wait a second, they are... right?" kind of moment in real time. Fascinating and inspirational.
Yep, but unfortunately once the call ends and Lazaro walks back into his Baptist house with his Baptist family and Baptist friends in his Baptist community with it's Baptist church.... the oppressive and frightening darkness will probably envelope him once again 😢
Eh, I felt that his answers were very indicative of someone who has been trying to evaluate their beliefs and honestly assess where they are at with them. And to be fair that would actually already be occurring while he's in the space of Baptist everythings everywhere.
There were several times he volunteered information such as that about people just going with what they're taught to, because it's culturally significant in that location. He seemed to be sincere when saying he's tried to look into the OT slavery, and ask about it, as he is struggling to reconcile the OT with his own morality which is in conflict.
I can't deny that I _want_ to believe that he's made significant progress towards breaking free of his indoctrination, but even though I do want that to be true, I felt that his answers, and questions were intellectually honest. His admittance that fear of death (presumably he has a deep rooted fear of Hell as a punishment for abandoning the faith) is something that is definitely factoring into his ability to be more objective, was incredibly honest and forthright, it's a big hurdle for so many.
I hope he calls back in a few months, it would be cool to see how his thoughts have changed, or not.
@@johncoops6897He has been introduced to different information. Who can tell what will come with time and continued thought?
@@brynpookc1127 - he is surrounded by the indoctrination. Every moment of every day he is exposed and vulnerable.
The logical arguments within a short discussion, the alternative ideas, the free thinking... all those things will be swamped once he's back in his normal life again.
It's very sad, but unfortunately once they are "in" these sects there is quite a small chance they can ever wrestle their way free 😢
@@Petticcavery true but this could maybe be the start of genuinely questioning
Great conversation! An honest caller.
It wasn’t very honest every time Matt cornered him when he tried to change the subject by asking questions about Matt. Only after they stopped letting him dodge their questions did he start being honest.
@FourDeuce01 Correct... but given the amount of callers that never get past their dishonesty, or their dogmatic fears, this was refreshing to listen to. Cheers, Lazaro! You're almost there.
most honest christian 😂😂
Lazaro is well on his way to deconstructing!
My brain, cuz I couldn't take any more.
I live in United States and Christianity is what I was taught" - One of the most honest answers as to why Lazaro is Christian that I have heard.
If Religious people were truthful as to why they believe the religion that the believe, it would be one of only a few things:
A) They were raised from very young that they should accept it, and that this is good, AKA indoctrinated to the religion presented at the time,
B) They had a profound experience(s) or even hallucinations that they - or others attributed it to the religion presented at the time,
C) They felt lost, etc. until they started believing it, and they or others attributed the change to the religion presented at the time.
D) They continue believing it because they surround themself (or are surrounded) with like-minded believers who (consciencely or unconsciously) train the followers NOT to use critical thinking and add slogans and other mental tricks to keep the followers believing.
A, B, C, & D are the real reason any individual is a religious adherent and is what keeps popular religions around.
"Sometimes you may find a man skilful in his trade, perfect in sagacity and in the use of arguments, but when he comes to religion he is found obstinate, so does he follow the old groove. Piety is implanted in human nature; it is deemed a sure refuge. To the growing child that which falls from his elders' lips is a lesson that abides with him all his life. Monks in their cloisters and devotees in their mosques accept their creeds just as a story is handed down from him who tells it, without distinguishing between a true interpreter and a false. If one of these had found his kin among the Magians, or among the Sabians, he would have declared himself a Magian or among the Sabians he would have become nearly or quite like them.
For al-Ma'rri religion is a "fable invented by the ancients," worthless except for those who exploit the credulous masses."
Al-ma'rri Philosopher and Poet
973 - 1057 AD
For me, it was when i realized,my religion depends on where i was born and what was taught to me to be true.
@damzey911 For me it was when I saw that without religion we still have an evolutionary reason to be good people, to treat people how we want to be treated etc..
And also that humans have a purpose BECAUSE we came from lucky laws of nature & chemistry.. The first sentient life ( that we can see ) waking up in an unprepared, cold, dangerous universe..
We aren't ( unwanted ) pets in a petri-dish doing what we are told..
We are not second in a "safe" created world,..
We are the first,
finding our way, unprepared , but still surviving ..
That gives way more purpose, to keep life alive, than being good pets..
😁☮️🌏
@@claudiaarjangi4914There are thousands of other examples of sentient life on Earth, and we definitely aren’t the first.
@@reefhogbut part of the power grasp of religion is the denial of that. “Humans aren’t animals” and “evolution isn’t true”. They fight those SOOO HARD, not because they can’t see the evidence, because they don’t want to concede the evidence. It is the comfort of a status quo. And admitting that we aren’t the greatest, the smartest, or the soul arbiters of “right vs wrong” topples their power. The divine mandate is where all of their justification comes from. They have to question their whole worldview. And they are afraid of that
This has got to be not only the longest call between all the shows, but also by far the most honest caller that we've ever seen. This was a surprisngly enjoyable call.
I'm not afraid of death. I'm afraid of suffering. I won't miss me when I'm gone and I make sure those I love know that I love them while I am here. If there's a god, I'm more interested in god explaining itself than I am of explaining myself.
@Dorff_Meister I have championed that I want to be mentally present for my death for 20+ years.
I don't always advocate for death by suicide, but I definitely want to be lucid for my passing, if at all possible, and feel it should be a choice. It's the whole reason I'm here, and it would be a shame to miss it if I was fucking sleeping.
@@BuddyBouncer I hope you get your wish. Unfortunately, short of self-ending, I'm not sure how you guarantee your desired outcome. I would never flippantly encourage that outcome, but I also believe everyone should be free to make their own (well considered) choices.
I mourn my eventual death because of all the things I will not see, do and experience. That's it. I don't want it to be all over.
I love this. Matt is so patient with this caller, helping him with his way through thinking, really thinking. Because this caller engages honestly and openly, the conversation is very satisfying.
Just skip till 20 minutes lol
Initially the caller was resistant but they really helped him overcome it and he ended up being honest. This has been one of my favorite calls
You call that patient?
@Mark73 I agree with Matt on nearly everything, but I don't like how he talks to people. Very rude, arrogant, and off putting.
He is so smart but if he would be a little more kind, then some ppl may be more receptive to the good thoughts he has to offer.
Don't get me wrong, most ppl have their minds made up already, but there are some that are still on the fence and this type of attitude could really turn someone away.
Just my opinion
@@UNCThunder The problem is that he's jaded from 20+ years of talking to people with no critical thinking skills.
"Why were you a Baptist?"
"Because I got bad information as a child. When I started to ask questions, I stopped being a Baptist because the answers about religion were bullshit."
Have you got that, Lazaro?
Typical, just attack and make fun huh? Always have to ridicule for beliefs until it comes to trans people then all of a sudden fuck science lets respect their very clear and obvious DELUSIONS about reality and science which also is horrifically detrimental to their mental health, bet you wouldnt defend jeffrey dohmers beliefs would you? But remember respect trans beliefs
At the end, I can hear the same pain in Lazaro’s voice that I had when I began to understand the truth. That what I had been raised with and believed for 27 years was a lie and I had built my life on fallacies. I hope he embraces that pain and pushes through to to truth and frees himself from religion. It’s very painful but it’s worth it.
The most powerful phrase I've ever heard Matt say is, "reliable path to truth." The second half of this conversation is a good example of Matt trying to show Lazaro why the reasons for his beliefs were not a reliable path to truth. My favorite type of call (excluding all the acrimony in the first half).
@@LordOfThePancakes Cool story bro. How do you know it's true?
@@LordOfThePancakes Cool story. Is everyone who has a story right or just you and your story? You sound just like a Mormon.
I need to clip Matt yelling "ANSWER MY FUCKING QUESTION" and make it an email notification.
Real
The effort paid off! Kudos to Lazaro for having the humility to recognize the limitations of his arguments and the willingness to entertain potentially terrifying possibilities. He hung in there while his entire worldview was surgically eviscerated and stayed cool. Dude is okay in my book.
I am not Christian and have no religion. All these reasoning Matt and Jimmy gives seems so natural and logical to me. Why is it so difficult for people with religion? Can someone maybe explain to me why do I feel that Christians/Muslims sound so ridiculous, illogical, irrational, gullible, hypocritical, arrogant, dishonest, petty, etc etc. I am now very fearful of them.
Religions indoctrinate you from birth to think one way with a number of traps that give you cognitive dissonance if you think too hard about it. Cognitive dissonance is uncomfortable, and so you avoid it. It's hard to question everything you've ever known, so you avoid it.
I struggle with that a lot when watching these videos, too. You just have to realize that not everyone thinks the same way. A lot of people are more swayed by emotional reasoning than logical reasoning. It's something that always sticks out to me on these calls, everyone wants to think that they care about the truth but then they will agree when they're shown that they don't have any good reasons for their belief.
It’s called indoctrination. When you tell a child what to believe from a young age, it is extremely difficult to change what that child believes when they reach adulthood. They are taught not to question their beliefs.
I believe it is due to cognitive load. They cannot think and reason honestly through a thought process, every step of the way they are trying to understand where the conversation is going and make sure their immediate answer isn’t going to concede ground. And they mostly do not have any experience outside of defending their beliefs to other religions. So every time they’re asked a question, their entire worldview has to load and compare answers and that’s why it sounds like their brain isn’t getting enough oxygen. It’s similar to a criminal being interrogated while trying to maintain a cover story. They can’t just answer the question, they have to mentally review how that answer will comport with their overall story. Literally bogs the brain down.
@@Krikenemp18 That's why I think they are either delussional, or they know they are wrong but are insisting they are right, therefore it makes them extremely hypocritical. And because their system of reasoning is in such a way, I find it very hard to respect their overall character.
As an atheist, I’ve watched about 100 of these episodes but this one straight up gave me chills. You could just feel the callers walls breaking down, his mind drifting into territory that he has probably always felt were forbidden to explore, and his heart softening to possibilities. His words showed that he wasn’t ready to say anything like that out loud, but you can just tell. Well down fellas. This is exactly the end goal here, and you guys did a phenomenal job.
His question toward the end about governance really pushes the fact home that religion was just the first form of government. Before there was law. The fear of God kept everyone in line.
I feel like Matt was close to losing the conversation on this one (in terms of hanging up, not in his points) but really brought it back so hard and actually got this guy to engage. Amazing work.
Yeah. I'm really glad that he stuck to the call longer than he had any real reason or obligation to. It really came into becoming a really good conversation.
I have great respect for Lazaro for sticking through this.
Poor Lazaro. He left with his faith shaken, as he admitted the bible is not inspired by god. He’s one step closer to getting it. You should always question your beliefs.
Did you ever think that folks like Lazaro believe in god because they aren't good at reasoning? That is the most logical thing I took away from all this.
I know of Atheists that don't believe for equally poor reasons.
@TrentR42 Like what? I'd like to hear some of these reasons because the rejection of an unsubstantiated claim isn't considered poor reasoning?
@@unkaumanguy1439Not all atheists are so for that reason.
@@unkaumanguy1439Taoists are atheist but they believe in animism and spirits and stuff.
Ummmm hello?! I’m seriously hoping you’re VERY young like 13 or something…..to only JUST NOW realize this and I guess…..kinda blown away by it? I don’t know I thought it when I was about 9….I’m no genius but I think pretty smart…..my dad was a Pentecostal apostolic minister….it’s just….so basic a realization….it’s that they are horrendous at reasoning or logic …but it’s also often that they’re just ……plain old STUPID. I’ve met sooooo many just stupid and low low IQ that run to religion and froth over it……
The moment Lazaro gave an honest answer, Matt's attitude instantly changed and went above and beyond to give him some valuable food for thought. It just shows how much Matt had been fed up with dishonest theists who argue in bad faith that Lazaro's "dumb" answer was like a dose of fresh air to him, and the atmosphere appeased for a friendly exchange. It shows Matt's not this angry godless bully thats gets off on shouting and humiliating the believers - he genuinely looks for an honest discussion.
You are doing God's work, Matt. Keep it up.
Outstanding Supporting argument your personal beliefs and food for thought at 28mins. This episode can and will change lives! Thank you for your continued work guys.
“We’ve been taught where we live”, not everyone. My ex was born and raised in a small Norwegian town, had never met anyone who had ever been a theist- as far as he knew- since he met me, when he was 17. His background was so secular that the idea of a grownup genuinely believing in god, in the 21st century, was baffling to him.
No one ever taught him god existed. He never assumed it did. Atheism was just what one is where he was brought up.
Wow.
I'm envious of him.
yes. atheism is the default setting. And when your adults never mention any deity in any way, you are guaranteed to remain an atheist. No deity cares to reach you. Somehow :- )
Then the 1st history lesson is funny. And the 1st random prayer scene in a random (usually U.S.) movie is strange beyond measure. We even have a joke about this.
- do you pray before a meal?
- No, we don't. My mom knows enough about cooking.
Saw a video where a gorilla subdued a member of its group that started a fight. It used enough force to not hurt the other gorilla, but enough to effectively tell it that it was misbehaving and that the behavior was not appropriate.
Animals are able to act very “humanlike.” So it stands to reason they have rudimentary belief systems. We just take it to the logical conclusion.
Yeah, just look at all the odd animal behaviors we don't understand. Who's to say that my cat staring at literally nothing on the wall for 10 minutes straight isn't some form of prayer to her approximation of a God concept for cats?
Even cats will engage in something like this, to some extent.
If you ever saw a kitten annoying the living daylights out of an older cat, you’ll notice that the older cat tends not to actually hurt the kitten. A few swats to the head, hissing, growling, even chasing, that tends to be the pattern. Even when the older cat could easily snap the kitten’s neck in two, it hardly ever does.
@@Krikenemp18 One word, daydreaming... your cat was daydreaming about the day their race conquered the world.
Humans are animals, humans often try to forget that because too many of them/us do things animals would find “barbaric”.
@@Krikenemp18 Let us read from The Holy Verses of our “Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats”, Chapter “The Naming of Cats”, by our prophet, The Serene Elliot:
_When you notice a cat in profound meditation,_
_The reason, I tell you, is always the same:_
_His mind is engaged in a rapt contemplation_
_Of the thought, of the thought, of the thought of his name:_
_His ineffable effable_
_Effanineffable_
_Deep and inscrutable singular name._
That was good when Jimmy tried to prevent Lazaro from changing the subject to why Matt left his church. Religious apologists love to dodge their burden of proof, and one of their favorite tactics is by changing the subject.
I think it's possible that Lazaro is sort of right... the inevitability of mortality may well have been the impetus for people to invent gods.
Absolutely part of it.
Of course. It's a fear of the unknown and uncertainty of what happens when we die. Religions have taken full advantage of this part of human nature in order to indoctrinate people through fear and intimidation. "Worship our god, follow our rules, and open your wallet in order to buy your ticket to salvation- otherwise your goose is cooked!"
That and the fact that no one knew anything about anything
People used to think that the changes in weather, or the reason it got cold at night..was cause gods were behind them.
It must be scary, losing your religion and knowing it, feeling your previous belief structure falling from under you in real time. As a life long atheist, I have no idea how scary that must be.
It's scarier for some more than others but it is a pretty rough thing in general. Some people, that's basically all they know. So some end up with basically no sense of how to find decent morals without religion, and how to look about anything without it. It's a pity, really.
I'm still terrified and I know full well I was lied to.
@@apophenic_ I hope it gets better with time
It must be scary on their deathbed. Let's face it, death is annihilation. I'm agnostic, and I find the idea of facing death someday just terrifying.
@@DPortugal I'm atheist and I really hate the idea of not being able to think. I like to think.
I think this exchange shows how important it is to be able to adapt from calm and diplomatic to forceful and fighty and back again for getting people to listen and to be heard. good for listening too. Enough force to break through the indoctrination, but enough empathy and patience to be productive with that breach made in a person's thinking. I know some people say Snow and Dillahunty are angry atheists, but I think this shows the opposite. Personally I am taking notes on this kind of conversing technique.
More than that I'd say the anger comes from people not answering a very simple question. What do you believe and why. When so many people call the show and end up dancing around the question without actually explaining what they believe and why I'd get frustrated too.
@@drc3po The reason it's hard for these people is because they've fighting their narrative. They have accepted something as a given, and it's been so reinforced by everyone around them that to them it's as obvious as the sky being blue. Then when someone comes in and starts questioning that they can't answer because they've never had to actually examine what they believe.
@@drc3poThey know that if they answer honestly it will expose their lack of reasoning ability 😮
I love Matt like I love Simon Cowell, he tells the truth, brutally when necessary, and doesn’t suffer any BS from idiots.
I saw a dance video and thought, she said she wasn't going to be able to dance anymore. Then I thought maybe it was before she was on BGT but it was a new video. Then I thought it was a different girl, nope same girl.
I looked into. She was going to have surgery to straighten her back but it would fuse vertebra.
Simon flew her to New York for much more expensive intensive surgery that would straighten her back and she would still be able to dance.
It wasn't big news so he must have kept it quiet or at least didn't brag about it.
As the Official Veganism Channel of UA-cam, I have to point out something crucial. Matt discusses how beliefs shape our world and actions. If we dismiss the idea that only humans matter and recognize that animals have subjective experiences and use reason just as we do, we must acknowledge their right to live. Matt admits animals are intelligent but still eats them needlessly. Just as he argues people are indoctrinated into religion, I'd argue he's been indoctrinated into the belief that harming animals is necessary, which is simply false. All essential nutrients come from plants. I ate animals for over 30 years and can confirm there are delicious vegan alternatives. Being vegan isn't a sacrifice; it's a joy. Every day, I sleep peacefully knowing I didn't take a life. Animals suffer immensely for our food, living in conditions we wouldn't wish on our worst enemy. Please, reconsider the belief that we need to harm animals to be healthy. We don't. Being vegan is healthier for us, the planet, and most importantly, for the animals.
@@veganism Fuzzy is vegan 🌱 💚
@@FuzzyPuppet indeed ✌️👍😂
@@veganism life is life no matter what form it takes. You can’t arbitrarily choose which lives are valuable and which ones aren’t. Either all life has value or no life has value.
I would love to speak with Matt about why veganism is the super superior choice
@@veganism all nutrition comes from plants not animals
gods did not create men...men created gods.
"Let none enter here who are ignorant of geometry."
- Plato's Academy
Damn skippy.
-Plato's closet
I'm just at the start, but crows have a level of intelligence and reasoning of a 7 year old kid. We're not special XD
Honestly, I was ready to give up on Lazaro mid-way through the call, but kudos to all three of you for sticking it out. I think you Mat and Jimmy were able to give him the right things to think about.
This is the best part of this show. I love hearing the change in their voices.
"Use that reasoning you are so proud of....." 🤣😂🤣
Poor guy never had a chance!
Great conversation Matt! You skillfully lassoed him, and lead him to the real water... skepticism 😊
This conversation was awesome. And Jimmy, you keep improving at having these conversations. I know you'd prefer producing, but you have other great contributions to give, if you care for it.
Oh sorry - GFY!
My dog Suki had her own comfy bed in the living room but was forbidden to sit on the lounge. She knew this perfectly well from puppyhood. A friend who had several dogs offered to look after mine while I was away on a trip. On returning, I stopped at her house to pick up Suki. There she was, curled up on my friend's lounge with my friend's dogs. As soon as Suki saw me, she cringed, ears back, crawled off the lounge and hid behind it. I had said nothing and shown no anger, in fact I'd laughed when I saw all the dogs piled up. But Suki had internalised the guilt - it was forbidden to sit on the lounge - at least when I was present. I did wonder if she broke the rule at home when I was out! This seems very human-like behaviour; I'm sure most of us have at some time broken some small rule when we thought no-one was watching.
There's /clearly/ a heathen in the house. Might want to do some cocaine about your blood ghosts.
As much as people seem to crap on Matt and Jimmy, I do think this style of direct confrontation is needed for a lot of people to see how awful their arguments sound to others. I can see how some would buckle back down and get defensive, but other folks really just need all the bad reasoning pointed out and their world views challenged.
I think this is really about learning from others... sometimes at their public expense...
Probably, to some degree. I'd still think at least some of the callers do use this as a jumping off point to more seriously consider their beliefs and reasoning. And if not, then yeah, other people watching can do the same thing. At a minimum, they could at least watch the more irrational arguements play out so they know in advance what doesnt cut it. I know I've for sure been stuck in irrational thinking patterns throughout my life, and at least part of the reason I listen to this show is to make sure I'm reminding myself to be more careful and aware that I'm still susceptible to locking myself into a position without considering I might not have all the facts. I gotta remember to stay skeptical somehow lol
Fear of death is one of the main reason that religon preys on the masses. Also the promise of an afterlife and controlling people.They get people to come every Sunday and pay money for the promise of life after death. They teach that if you do not obey you will go to hell. I also noticed a bunch of hippocritical adults at the church. That did not sit right with me. I am a truth teller. I became an atheist because I wised up over time. I was also a skeptic. I never liked the whole group mentality thing. I noticed that none of my prayers were answered by a non existent god. I was a good person.Why did I always get bullied in school ect...Also, how could God allow all the horrible things that occurred in my life personally. Physical and SA by my parents who went to church every Sunday. When I started working as a teenager there was no way I was going to give money to an organization that did not pay taxes. In was also was an avid news watcher, even as a child. How could a god allow all the unrest in the world. I started to thinking independently from my parents especially in college. I discovered Christopher Hitchens. My HERO. Then at my first professional job I befriended a holocaust survivor. When I saw those numbers on her arm that did it. I went from being 75%agnostic to 100% pure atheist. It took another 30 yrs for me to come out to family as an atheist. Having a boyfriend that was one helped. Of course they want to blame him. He just gave me the courage to come out.
Matt!!!!! The Ashley Book of Knots! Good man. I'm an International Guild of Knot Tyers member myself. Took me by surprise when you lifted that off the shelf. Funny things is, we 'knot tyers' refer to ABOK as the 'knot tyer's Bible'. Made me giggle. Keep on keeping on.
I don't believe because I'm human.
That was a great discussion. It's refreshing to have a caller who can honestly answer questions. I do hope he continues to follow the path towards demonstrating what's true because I feel from this conversation he's dipping his toes in. Good on Lazaro I wish him all the best
Matt, you are usually a very good interlocutor, but this was you at what may have been your most eloquent.
@@het53 You should consider reading something other than your Wholly Fables
I literally can’t find a puzzle hard enough for one of my dogs. He’s a genius. The other one just flops behind him and tries to get stray treats. They’re both figuring it out at a high level 😂
It's interesting how Matt asks some obvious questions like "how do you know the Bible is from God" and the caller seems really stumped like this is an incredibly difficult question he has never had to face.
The things we take for granted assuming everyone has had to wrestle with these basic fundamental questions by necessity!
You're doing good work challenging people's ingrained biases. Everyone needs to be challenged this way about their beliefs in life!
It's crazy how some people belittle animals thinking that they are unable to reason love be upset feel emotional pain show empathy etc like man is the greatest.
Of all the bizarre things, one of the more banal things caught my ear was that “I am a Baptist like Matt was”. The fact that the Baptist church has fractured so often and is still fracturing is proof enough against biblical inerrancy.
Every time Mat says "No sir!" I imagine him in a Wonka hat :P (original movie)
" I don't want to betray myself " yet believing without any sort of real reason is betraying yourself
Great call. This is a good example of Matt's anger being inversely proportional to the caller's honesty!
Matt'd been intellectualy huge, this caller being honest gave us the opportunity of an amazing conversation. Maybe the best I've heard. Thank you all.
It's been a month since I lost the most important person in my life, and this situation only reinforces that "god" does not exist. "God" would have to be very cruel to make life so short and fragile.
Managed to do 20 minutes before tapping out. Poor old Lazaro had nothing.
It amazes me how the fact that thousands have been proposed that they still say theirs is right and it’s not cause of where/when they were born and what their parents probably believed. That should be full stop there to think about it.
I love the way you don't let these ppl get away with saying false things. Unfortunately ppl that believe the right religious stories expect to get away with all sorts of dishonesty and ignorance. I'm so bored of thoughtless ignorant ppl being humoured because they claim to believe religious fever dreams.
Weather Lazaro is leaving his beliefs or not, at least, you could say, he is opening his mind. Either way at the end of this call he was sounding much more thoughtful. Courageous man!
Lazaro has obviously never thought about these things. Hopefully, he will continue to do so.
When someone asks me why I believe that there is a dog sitting on the couch behind me, it's so easy to answer. As is the explanation for everything else I believe in. Theists need to see that every belief they hold other than about god can be explained simply and clearly and that their explanations for their god belief, if they were sound, would also be that easy to explain.
I moved to Oklahoma which is overwhelmingly religious
My uncle would argue with me about it. Failing to see reason
And the craziest thing he said to me:
“The fact that you don’t believe, offends me”
Smh Jesus Christ…
Baptists have preachers which is pretty much the same thing as a priest.
On paper I think priests are in communion with God and preachers preach, that is talk about God.
If I said "God talks to me" I'd be out in a nut house.
15 mins in and Lazaro is on the shakiest of shaky grounds.
23 mins in Lazaro is slowly clawing his way back.
This was a great call. A theist that became more honest as things went on is rare.
My favourite call so far… so awesome that it didn’t just devolve into an argument.
Most Christians are at the same level as Lazaro. They know many things don't make sense in Christianity, but because they've been indoctrinated since little children, it is very hard to come to terms with the facts of reality. The other factor is a safe mental space in the face of everyday life, "God is looking after you" and all that kind of thinking. I understand how hard it is to live in a society with two sides constantly pulling on you, on one side a cold cruel capitalism where a person is only a number, and on the other side, evangelical extremists spreading fear.
Believer or not, no one should listen to Lazaro
Eh, by the end he was way more honest and willing to listen than the average caller to the show. He was at least willing to acknowledge the traps and hangups and flaws in his own reasoning, and actually engage in self reflection. That’s waaay better than we usually get from callers
So obnoxious how commenters like you get so antagonistic about every callers, even those that are trying to be intellectually honest. You’re just making the community look bad.
Matt was listening to him.
@@TrentR42smart pants? It means he should not be taken seriously.
The dude winds up being more self-aware and humbly honest than 99% of the callers to these shows. All of the theists should listen to him.
This is a GOOD FREAKING CALL. I did not expect it to go this way 😮
I wish people were honest and say things like “I believe in god because I was taught to believe” or “I believe because I am held accountable to the people who taught me” or like “I believing in god holds the connection between me and the person who taught me”
Maybe humanity is evolving away from gods and superstitions as we progress through time? As more and more people become better educated and communication allows more and more people to question things more, and conclude that supernatural things are simply improbable. I think this is what makes your show pertinent and important! Thanks Jimmy and Matt. All the best!!!😊😊🍸😜❤️
people HAVE to Be Trained and groomed into theism. Theism is not a Basic Survival Instinct. Nor Neccesary for ones survival.
“I would rather have questions that can’t be answered than answers that can’t be questioned.” -- Richard Feynman
“Just because I don’t understand something, that doesn’t mean I’m willing to chalk it up to some fairy tale.” -- (TV Matt Murdoch/ Daredevil) (This is one of my all-time favorite quotes!)
When I was fourteen and really, really interested in the fascinating world of science I started asking my church leader these very questions. I immediately learned they made him very uncomfortable. He would say let me get back to you. He never did of course.
Jimmy's input on evolution was constructive. I think Lazaro needs to understand that before you can teach him how to construct an argument.
What a great episode.
Being frustrated by religion isn't "atheist" but it certainly can be the path to get you there.
Awesome call. the intellectual honesty finally started to take over. I wish every theist would be this honest.
This was such a good call once Lazaro actually started answering the questions. When I was a believer I got very good at pointing out the flaws of other religions and other Christian sects. Eventually, I realized that people from those other denominations, sects, and religions, thought the exact same thing as I did but about my beliefs. At that point, the proverbial veil was lifted and I realized that we all could not be right, but we all could be wrong. I started considering my own beliefs with that same level of criticism and found that there was not one good (logically sound) reason to believe it.There are many "good" reasons to believe or claim to believe in a god, but that does not make the proposition true.
Chimps may have a sense of the sacred. "God" may not be unique to "humans." There's a pretty good article in The Atlantic ("Seeing Spirituality in Chimpanzees") Lazaro is all over the place. Kudos to Matt and Jimmy for holding his feet to the fire.
They found some of our cousins who were burying their dead in caves
You might want to read that article again. It talks about how Jane Goodall called chimps staring at a waterfall "spiritual", but she defined spiritual as wonder for natural features or events. It then talks about a study that looked at chimps throwing rocks at trees and posits that it might be ritualistic behavior; the article's author specifically points out they never say "spiritual".
The rest of the article is dedicated to hyping up a professor of religion who wrote a book claiming religion exists in non-human animals, but his definition of religion is so broad that he considers bird courtship dances to be a form of religion.
Frankly, I was surprised to learn the article was written by an anthropology professor.
@@fedos ancient cousins were burying one another.. even elephants bury their dead.. who tf are you to decide whats the real deal or not.. if anything these things point to it being a load of horse shit lol
@@ChillAssTurtle Burying the dead does not equate to religion or spirituality. Those "ancient cousins" were still humans. Elephants mourn their dead; they don't bury them.
Mourning does not require spirituality or religion.
Yes, the chimps get it. Poop flinging is extremely spiritual. The pope often follows the sacred act of launching turds from the balcony of St Peter's church at the worshipers below.
When dogs are scolded they absolutely know what that means. No physical contact at all is necessary. There's like, a million UA-cam videos of this.
Dogs learning and thinking abilities are unbelievable even compared to primates. ✌️
I don't mind Matt's approach at all. Personally, I think the time for patience has long passed. The moment believers start wielding their beliefs against reason and logic in our governments, our schools, our doctor's offices, our homes, and our personal lives, patience goes out the door.
I ask people on my fb How do they know they have a soul. One guy actually said. Because I’m breathing. 😂
"X can't explain Y therefore god."
Broken epistemology. Good luck with that conversation.
Magnetohydrodynamics can’t explain the existence of Spider-Man comics. Therefore God.
(Sorry. Wanted to type Magnetohydrodynamics.)
Came back to listen to this again. One of the best turnaround convos I've heard on this channel.
Fear of death - I do think that is a strong argument for a lot of christians, but not the only one. I think a lot of christians also find that they need to believe that they will be forgiven for their sins. Asking another person for forgivness is hard to most, and it is so much easier to pray to god for forgiveness.
Kids, don't do Meth or Jesus... or Mohamed.
Dogs are better than people. They don't know money, bigotry, racism, religion, god.. they're just happy to see ya. Closest thing to unconditional love I've ever come across.
There are many cats and dogs, by their owners, have buttons which say words, and thus, those animals actually being able to use words, AND REASON, in constructing logical "statements", AND even "questions".......and yes, they can make a distinction between the two concepts of question vs statement
Oh yes, the bapticism episode 😁
Lazaro was bad, reaaaaly baaaad. But got better during the call. 🤙
Dismiss the olympian gods?! Blasphemy, may Zeus strike you with lightning.