We are aware that Solanum is not actually wearing the third mask that is recording and sending information back in time. We'll correct this next episode.
Mike, perhaps it isn't about you being unclear, not about your ability to communicate, but moreso about others' lack of effort to understand. That's not to say to go ahead and place blame outside yourself, but communication emerges by sender AND receiver. Mike, Casen, excellent work, I find real meaning from your podcast.
These two are some of the most eloquent people on the whole internet. Mike deserves to find someone who will always try to cross the chasm of the imperfectness of words as symbols in his personal life but i hope he knows he's got lots of us here across space and time who get him like he wishes
That's exactly what it is. Most people do not have the attention span to watch an almost two hour long video, let alone understand what Mike and Casen are saying.
5:26 I appreciate that Casen is more willing to share personal views now compared to earlier podcasts. His perspectives on life and the world in general are valid reference points for his own personal interpretation of a story; same with Mike as well as every single viewer.
I greatly appreciate the way that Mike brought his his whole self to this episode as he's done a number of times during shows this past year. Its very rare in any media content to see creators who aren't afraid to show their raw genuine personalities and emotions, and to speak from the heart. I appreciate content where real people aren't afraid to be real people and aren't afraid to approach the big uncomfortable philosophical questions about what it means to exist. This episode was that in spades. My favorite game selections tend to be the ones with lots of room for interpretation. This creates a fuzzier canvas for Mike and Casen to bring their own personalities and viewpoints and it becomes as much a show about them and about the human condition as it is about the games, their objectives, and their developers. It also nails the goal of bringing traditional conceptual analysis seen in literature and applying it to this newer medium. Thanks for another great series
What an excellent comment. This is what makes this channel, the creators, and their art and chats so valuable and enjoyable to listen to. I love hearing such thoughtful commentary on games and life. I feel my own mind open and kick into gear with thoughts. Lovely.
1:14:25 Mike, whatever you are referring to here, it is very brave of you to share your experiences and show your emotions. I've heard stories about the "precipice" from people in my own life and I've heard similar things about a sudden, overwhelming sensation of peace and beauty. I struggle with death anxiety, but I hope you don't mind me saying stories such as yours bring me a certain level of comfort. Your drive towards the importance of acceptance is inspiring and admirable. As a side note, you do communicate to the viewers in a healthy and productive way. I don't think there are any creators on this entire platform who advocate for healthy discussion between creators and viewers more than you and Casen do.
What an unbelievable episode. Talk about struggling to communicate something to others? It pains me that I probably won’t be able to explain to others exactly why they need to play Outer Wilds just so they get to watch this Resonant Arc episode and experience it in full. Mike and Casen, I have no words. This was extraordinary.
I love you Mike. Being someone I respect and knowing you struggle with the same issues of isolation I just want to say thank you for being so open. You, Casen and this podcast have helped me feel more connected in a meaningful way. Words as usual don’t do justice so I’ll say it again: I love you!
(1) Most definitely a top 5 episode in the history of the Resonant Arc podcast. I think Mike and Casen alluded to many salient concepts in the history of ideas in this episode, such as the "sublime" (Edmund Burke) and the task of cultivating an "openness to Being" (Martin Heidegger). One idea I'd like to focus on is Mike's point of "connection" as a key theme of Outer Wilds, and Tolstoy's concept of art. For Tolstoy, art can be understood as a deeply human and ethical activity: “To evoke in oneself a feeling one has once experienced, and having evoked it in oneself, then, by means of movements, lines, colors, sounds, or forms expressed in words, so to transmit that feeling that others may experience the same feeling - this is the activity of art." Outer Wilds has cemented itself as art from the Tolstoyan perspective, in that it functions as a medium to transmit feelings from the developers to the player and, through the conduit of this podcast, from Mike to us. Just as the protagonist is himself the campfire to bring all the people in his life into a coherent whole, the game also brings to itself diverse people from all over the whole who have been transformed by this experience.
Right now I'm watching the section at ~32:00 where Mike is talking about how he needed to accept that he wasn't going to save the universe, that the universe was going to end, there was nothing he could do to stop it, and the game has been telling him that since its outset. Mike's experience with that realization and his reaction to it threw something into relief for me due to how different it was from my experience, made me reminisce about another media property, and made me appreciate a small part of the design of the game that you guys didn't mention. The fact that Mike felt that he needed to further engage with the game world, to talk to the other explorers and find the answers to the last few questions and secrets, before he was willing to accept the reality and move on made me greatly appreciate that the design of the game allows the player for as much time as they need, even an infinite amount of time, to accept this fact before they move on to the end of the game. While I may have moved on to the end of the game immediately upon figuring out that particular puzzle, it would not surprise me if there are many people who had similar experiences to Mike, where they take out the warp core, realize the enormity of that action, then immediately return it in place and go back to the universe. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if there are some people who were never able to finish the game because of this feeling, instead perpetually staying in the loop. And I think it is an act of great generosity by the devs that you are given all the time you need to make this decision. You are not punished in any way for returning the warp core to the Ash Twin Project. You do not pass a Point of No Return or get a Ticking Clock the moment you remove the warp core, forcing you into the endgame. You are allowed to choose, entirely on your own, when you are ready to go to the end of the game. This was very reminiscent of another media property I have great fondness for: The Good Place. Not to go too far into spoilers here, but in the last few episodes of the last season of the series, the main characters of the show are obliged to come to terms to a similar realization about death and their own existence. And similarly to the Outer Wilds, that show allows the characters as much time as they need to come to terms with that realization and finally accept it, with each of the characters having a different reaction and requiring a different amount of time. The grace that the showrunners had in how they allowed each character to respond in there own way is one of the reason I like that show so much, and is very much in line with how the Outer Wilds devs have designed the end of their game for their players.
This is why I come to Resonant Arc. Easily on the best episodes you guys have ever produced. Mike, your vulnerability is refreshing and always welcomed. We connect with you because of these personal moments just as much as we do for the game content.
My favorite thing about this ending is that the idea of people being three dimensional beings incapable of understanding whats happening can also be described as us being "two-dimensional," and unable to care about what the game's explanation for what's happening, unless they make it meaningful to us and our journey.
This was a beautiful episode. I don't have another way to describe it. That intro gave me instant goosebumps, and I knew, "Oh man, this is going to be good!" I was not disappointed. Also, I wanted to thank you, Mike, for getting vulnerable there for a bit. That's not easy to do for the whole world to see. I highly respect that. I could tell in your eyes when you started talking about the ending, something was resonating deep within you. I was either thinking that or the lighting was weird to make your eyes look off, lol. But then, seeing you get vulnerable about your experience, then I knew I wasn't seeing things. I wanted to let you know that you are not alone in feeling like people can't understand what you say. I feel the same. I think that's a part of why I've become such a huge introvert (among other reasons). Like Casen was saying "if it's not going to be heard, then why bother saying anything at all." Or something like that. I very much have that mindset. And then when I do talk, I tend to overdo it for the sake of making sure people understand what I'm trying to say so it's not misinterpreted. Like you, I want people to understand what I say. More often than not, that's not the case. Keep up the awesome work you guys. I love watching your videos so much. It always brightens my day.
I feel for Mike in his trying to communicate as well as possible. I feel like there is always the possibility of a barrier of a willingness to listen and understand that can often make Communication more difficult than it should be.
There’s always a point where you have to say. I’ve done enough to reach this person. Whether it’s communication or trying to help them. If the other person is unwilling to be helped, you can’t reach them. As it currently stands both Mike and Casen have a whole community that can vouch that they are open to ideas and giving things the benefit of a doubt. Mike sharing his experiences within the eye and the ending only cements this. Personal I always struggle with this because I find it hard to have perspective on whether or not I have done enough or if the other party isn’t doing enough when there is a breakdown in understanding. I’m sure Casen knows exactly what it’s like when a Holy Book is misrepresented in a shameful way. But such is life. I’m glad both Mike and Casen are living there best lives.
Felt inspired to comment about my own experiences with communication and connection. When I was young I remember being told to "calm down" or that I seemed too impassioned when I had an idea about something no one particularly cared about. I was able to get by with friends who had similar interests, but for everyone else I became quiet and withdrawn. While not quite the same response Mike had, I think it's a response to similar experiences. Especially when you mentioned that commenters had described an opinion you shared as an "outburst". That's a word I can understand why they chose (or maybe Mike chose), but I can also recognize that act of expressing an idea coming off as more impassioned than was intended. Wanting to be understood, only to have other people recoil from a situation they read as tense or standoffish; fight or flight. I love Mike and Casen's interpretation of the ending meaning connection. I've accepted that the relatively few meaningful connections I have are deeply meaningful, be it a person who understands me and welcomes my expression of ideas (my wife), or those around the campfire who are joined by their shared experience without need for words (my friends with whom I share interests). Tangential, but I also want to point out that I find it difficult to attach a deep meaning to many experiences on my own, but rather I extrapolate meaning empathically by how experiences affect others. That being said it has been a delight to watch your analyses of content I've enjoyed for one reason or another, and truly special for games like these where your insights and reactions actually elevate not only my understanding but emotional connection to the material. Thank you for producing such stellar work!
This has to be your guys best podcast to date that ive seen, and I appreciate Mike's willingness to speak about how deep his experience was with the game. This game is also my personal favorite by a pretty considerable margin, so its cathartic to listen to people's blind experiences about it.
One thing I love about the conversation with Solanum. (Spoilers beyond) . . . . . When she's on the Quantum Moon there are six different versions of her that all exist at once. She happened to be there when all the Nomai died out, so the five at the various planets perished and the one at the sixth location in orbit around the Eye survived. What's fun is this means when the Hearthian is on the Moon's surface, there are five other versions of them that must exist in the other locations too. We just never get to see them.
For what it's worth, which ain't much, but what Mike speaks about regarding not feeling like one is able to connect with others, feeling trapped, the frustration at others misinterpreting our intentions, I'd just like to say you aren't alone in feeling that. If you did feel alone that is. These days I feel it more and more, like its all circling the drain and everyone could put the plug in if they worked together to stop it but they'd rather argue about who pulled the plug out in the first place. But what you spoke of, that recognition of something greater in conciousness, that made a lot of sense to me. I caught a glimpse of something that isn't what I'd call confirmation of God or anything. I think Terry Pratchett articulated a similar sounding experience as seeing "where gods come from." An underlying layer of our being that's pretty freaking sweet. I felt whole. Content. And that there wasn't anything to be all that afraid of in the end. Maybe that is God I dunno. But uh, yeah. Videogames. This one sounds pretty good. Ahem.
Weirdly, listening to Mike talk about communication and stuff here helped me deal with something that's been eating me for like... three or four months now. To just accept it. So, thank you for that. Edit: Had a relationship end over a miscommunication. And by the time I was finally able to sort that out, it was far to late to fix things. And so it was eating at me for a while about what I should have done different, or how did I mess up? But yah, you just have to accept that communication is imperfect. It takes acceptance. Struggling against it doesn't help. Even this explanation kind of sucks, but I just mean I get what he was saying and I feel it.
Thank you for covering this game and experiencing it and sharing that experience. It is truly my favorite game of all time and I want as many people as possible to experience it. They may not like it as much as me, or have the same experience I did at a time in my life when it hit me really hard. But some will and that’s enough. And especially to Mike and what he shared with his personal struggles. It’s not easy to do that and I hope if nothing else it was cathartic for you. Looking forward to Echoes of the Eye. My favorite DLC of all time.
Thank you for sharing this with the internet, guys. I usually don't watch your analyses of games I haven't played - especially ones I'd be interested in playing some day - but I'm glad I watched this one anyway. Your personal connections with this game were powerful, and I'm not sure I'd be brave enough to share them so freely. Also, I'm looking forward to Tactics Ogre!
I discovered this channel years ago, exploring my love of FF. I remember thinking at the time that nothing would move me and mean as much to me as FF7 when I played it when I was 13. 25 years later, outer Wilds swept it away. It came at a time when I was working a difficult job, supporting a family, experiencing regular panic attacks, a world away from my 13 year old self. It changed me and helped me to break out of the world of anxiety and fear I had created for myself. I'm so grateful for having played it and the part it played in helping me to break out of my problems. I am so glad that it has been as impactful for others.
Indeed, this game is somehow the most faithful translation of a heavy, ego-death-inducing, peeking-behind-the-veil, bro-I-think-I-took-too-much, type of psychedelic trip. Or at least what you bring back from it. Forget about the beautiful visual arts, shamanic music and whatnots. The madlads at Moebius Digital did it right there with cutesy graphics and a banjo.
Mike... What you talked about here, how you try your best to articulate and people don't understand? I'm gonna tell you something as a person who sees a lot of myself in you: Mike... it's not you, it's them. Trust me. There are people who don't have the capacity to understand (for many different reasons) and in many cases it is not even their own fault. But be certain that it's not because you didn't properly communicate. You are one of the rare people I could listen to talk for hours (as I am indeed doing). Casen too. If there is anyone out there despising you, that's on them.
Hey guys just wanted to say that I love this podcast, It's been a highlight for me for the last 2 plus years. Love your conversations and the clarity of them. You guys are so easy to listen to and through that I am able to make connections to games that I never would have been able to articulate myself and have made the games you've covered have a lasting impact in my mind long after I've finished them. Thank you for that Mike and Casen.
1:14:00 what you are saying hits me so hard. I have always struggled with emotions and communication and because of me always looking older and being taller than what I was, i was always expected to be older. all that made me shut off from others cause it made me feel nobody wanted to understand. I know i am wrong in that assessment but it doesn't change the fact that I still get that feeling. Add on top of that that many people misinterpreted my words and it makes things hard. When i have those small moments when people that understand or try to it makes things worth it so i keep trying now days. but that feeling is always still there.
You'll be understood more through your words in time than by the few you'll meet in person, just know there are people out there who get you even if you never hear their response.
I also had the "Oh, I should put this back" moment the first time I removed the warp core, but I think once I went into the Eye and actually did the ending that doing that and going round one more time and making sure I'd really taken it all in was the right thing to do. When we jump into the eye it's our memories that come out and set the seed for the new universe. The other travellers, Solanum and the DLC character aren't physically there, but we brought them with us because we remember them. Every one of them adds to the possibilities of the future, which we can resolve into a reality by going there to observe it.
Haven't played this but have been really loving these episodes! This ending reminds me a lot of my favorite movie, Cloud Atlas. Especially the coming together at a bonfire and Casen talking about the music. The true true.
I love your coverage of this game, easily one of my favorite! The way I understood Solanum being in the 6th location is that when the ghost matter was released and killed everything in the solar system, she was on the quantum moon. Since quantum objects location is unknown (or at all places at the same time), whether she was in any other location or at the 6th location depends on the observer. She ends up being both dead and alive ala Schrodinger's Cat. This is why she mentions she is unsure of whether she is really alive. -Also, on the subject of the third mask - My understanding is that the third mask belongs to the probe cannon module - Through it the data of the probes is sent back in time.-
Those of us who get it, get it. No need to explain yourself. This is my favorite game of all time too. It's phenomenal. And, if possible, I think that the DLC is even better (at least from a gameplay standpoint). It also ties so beautifully into the main game, both in terms of story and themes. I'm so glad that you guys played this when you did, and that it resonated with you so well. ::)
What an amazing commentary. You so beautifully explored the profound sense of contentment, wonder and awe that I too felt at the end of the game. The universe is going to end, my life is going to end, a new world will emerge over time that is not my world, that will be at least as unrecognizable to me as now would be to a woman or man of the 18th century, but the choices I make and things I perceive--the choices other make and things they see--will inform that world, and there is beauty just in making connections and smelling the pine trees along the way. Both the struggle and the moments of unexpected beauty and peace are their own rewards. I'm pretty old. I'm only a couple of years younger than my dad was when heart disease took him. I expect to live a few years longer than he did, longer than my younger brother who has already died, but I am far closer to the end than to the beginning, and I feel that each day: I can hear those familiar first chords of "End Times." I too have stood at that precipice a few times in my life, and that end no longer scares me. And I still remember that moment of realization while reading all the notes in the ASh Twin Project that, no, I couldn't stop the sun from exploding...and that was all right, because I could finish what the Nomai had set out to accomplish hundreds of thousands of years before I was born, and that would do, it would have to do. It was all I could do. Yes, the only other piece of art I can compare that ending to is the final sequence of 2001: A Space Odyssey. I first saw it at nine yeaars old, just after it came out, and certainly didn't feel the profundity on that viewing--I was intrigued and mystified. It was only later that I realized how much it is about hanging on in those last few days, looking toward a new world you don't understand and won't be apart of, but that will be informed by all the things you experienced. Earlier on, Outer Wilds slowly displaced 2001 as my favorite piece of art about space exploration that truly gave the sensation of what that kind of travel and discovery must *feel* like--the danger and awe, the alternating tedium and bursts of discovery. I thought of 2201 almost immadiately after my first landing in Outer Wilds, the sound of my character breathing reminding me instantly of the long spacewalk sequence in 2001, where the soundtrack is mostly just the sound of Frank Poole's breathing over the intercom. I'm going to put off watching the remaining episodes here. As much as I loved the base game, I bounced off the DLC when I first tried it right after release. Only since then have I recalled that I bounced off the main game with my first attempt, intrigued but knowing I was going into a period of work that would take all my mental energy, and sensing at the locator on the Attlerock that his game would demand and reward a certain amount of attention. I will re-challenge Echoes of the Eye sometime in the next year, and then I'll return to hear your take on it. Thank you for sharing your discussion of your deeply engaged playthrough of this game, which became a permanent fixture in my top five games of all time, as it did for you.
I know it won't change how it makes you feel but please don't let a few people on the internet carry so much weight on your self image. The loudest voices are always going to be the people who have extreme reactions. There will always be people on the extremes of the bell curve of your audience and who knows what's going on in those people's lives. I also am someone who usually looks inward first to try and fix a problem, but the reality is you could have articulated yourself perfectly and there will still be people who don't hear you for any number of reasons. I also acknowledge that you don't have the luxury I do to just ignore social platforms considering you guys need to have a public presenece on the internet as part of your business. So some of this is easy for me to say as a relatively private person. I can just unplug and walk away from this stuff when it gets me down. In that way you have my sympathies.
Listening to Mike talk about this game really made me wanna give it another shot. I’ve been listening to the podcast not having played this game or playing it with you guys which is something I do pretty often. I tried starting this game but I wasn’t able to get into it at the start. Now I wanna give it another go. At this point I know the whole story and I’ll likely not get the same experience that Mike did but I still wanna give it another go. I’m glad to see Mike so passionate about this game and how much it affected him. Also thank you Mike for sharing your very personal and intimate feelings about your struggles with connecting with people. On the topic of FFXVI… I’m sorry you guys got so much hate on that podcast. I understand you guys didn’t enjoy the game and as a result it seemed to me that it was not your best work. I don’t think that excuses anyone being shitty to you guys in the comments or on Twitter. That being said I did comment respectfully and in good faith my thoughts about you guys’ takes on certain things in the game and I didn’t get a response. I apologize if maybe my comments were misconstrued as not being respectful or in good faith. Or maybe I just got lost in all the comments. I really respect both of you and can’t get enough of the podcast, it’s truly a highlight of my week. Even when you guys aren’t at what I would describe as “not your best” with FFXVI. I been hooked ever since I stumbled upon the reuploads of the FFVIII podcast and I havent missed an episode and sometimes I'll rewatch stuff like the FFT or Xenogears podcast when I need something to listen to at work. This podcast has become very important to me. Keep up the great work!
This episode has got to be one of my favourites from you guys. Mike, I get so much of what you're saying about acceptance and connection to people. It's hard to articulate, to even put down words since I hardly ever leave comments like these. I just want to show you my appreciation for both of you. The stuff you guys talk about with these podcasts, it has deepened my love for games/movies and just the art of storytelling as a whole. These podcasts have had a strong impact on my life. Mike, there are so many people who love you. I don't know if you are Christian but I have a strong hope we'll see each other in heaven someday. Same for you Casen.
Mike, it's incredible that you had the experience of people totally missing what you were saying about FF16 by not engaging with the totality of what you were saying because I thought you guys would have gotten more out of that game if you had just read the active time lore lol. But... you did a great job explaining exactly what you meant. FF16 did a poor job of explaining itself with a very subpar game mechanic. You do a better job of relaying your thoughts to your audience than the FF16 development team did lol
I just wanted to add a quote I saw at my mother's house lately. That relate to what Cassen said about rebuilding our connection with nature: “One of the first conditions of happiness is that the link between man and nature shall not be broken.” -Leo Tolstoy
This is also my favorite game of all time. Just a thought. I think the "it's all going to end, so it doesn't matter if I don't make it with the warp core. The important part is the acceptance" is not quite the message here. If I may, I think there's an obligation to strive and hold on to life as you struggle up hill to the end because there is an outcome that will live beyond you. I think the fact that there's different endings in response to your decisions proves this point. So, the theme is not just acceptance in and of itself. The theme is to strive and struggle and be content that although you may not arrive at the promised land, because of you there may be others that will - and even if not, there is beauty in your effort regardless of the outcome.
Love your podcast - loved this coverage, and I agree completely. I tried the game when it came out.. it just really didn't click. (In fact I didn't even get my ship into space.. I just wasn't feeling it) - After coming back to it, and really giving it a shot.. I felt profoundly changed. I felt destroyed, and completely hopeful for the future. Its hard to put into words and I'm sure you felt similarly. (And anyone else who played it.) The DLC is wonderful as well. As a side note: - A game that also gave me similar spiritual 'change' but not in the same cosmic scope sense... was Kentucky Route Zero.
I watched your last episode of your no commentary playthrough, and even though I couldn't hear you say anything, I could tell how deeply you were fully in the moment spiritually, just from what you were looking at, when you chose to look at things, and the length of time you were taking it all in. It's like once the initial awe subsided and the message came across, you slowed down to take in and savor each moment. It was a beautiful thing.
I actually whooped aloud when Mike was describing the “spiritual experience” he had with this game. The way I explain it to people is that I felt something at the end of this game that I haven’t felt from anything else. The only thing that’s come close is the game Journey. OW revealed something to me about my humanity and my relationship with the universe that I just hadn’t been exposed to prior to playing. I played Outer Wilds at the very beginning of a relationship change between me and the religion I grew up believing. I attribute OW with helping me accept aspects of myself and spirituality that I’d been resisting. And it helped me find myself in a weird way. Glad the guys have enjoyed it. This podcast series has been phenomenal.
Hey Mike. Following these videos, your side of the analysis of this game has been so satisfying to see. To see you peer into Outer Wilds' themes, messaging, and tone, feeling through it all from the beginning, and to see you grasp onto the threads this game gives you before you've seen the whole woven tapestry of this story that is beautiful in one of the most meaningful senses of the word, it's been such a joy to listen to your understanding of it. My first encounter with your analysis content was with discovering your Final Fantasy XIII discussion series. That game is one that's been very meaningful to me personally, as I played it at a young age and continued to identify with its tone and feeling for many years after that. Because of that, much of the common criticism frustrated me to no end. All of the endless "It's just one long hallway"/"The battles are automatic, the game plays itself"/"The characters are annoying" just felt like people dumping on my favourite story because it was popular, to get on the bandwagon, all the more so because they didn't apply at all to my own experiences, and I just couldn't connect with theirs. Your discussion series at the time, for me, felt like the opposite. It was exploring something with effort, mapping out its inner workings with genuine care to know why it doesn't quite tick right, like a toymaker repairing a beloved companion. The breakdowns of internal story mechanics, the research into development, and the clear and digestible explanations all were like seeing daylight after ages of gloom. It was one of the first times in my life that criticism of something I loved impacted me positively, and made me able to connect more and deeper with a story I cared for. Outer wilds is a game with such a beautiful story. One about how learning and caring about history grows your perspective on the present, and that even though one day you and everything you love will be history that the world and life in it will still be as good and beautiful and vividly meaningful as before you'd left it. It's a story that makes me understand on an emotional level what the term 'universally human themes' means. My fiance introduced me to it years ago, and we still talk about it today. It really is one of the best games ever, without any hyperbole. I'm sorry to hear that some people have levelled less thought-out and considerate criticism about your work towards you, and to hear about how it's affected you. I'm well aware that the common advice for this criticism is often "grow a thick skin"/"It's just some random person on the internet", or generally anything that attempts to diminish the situation. I'm just as aware that this advice is bullshit and unhelpful, as it betrays an ignorance to the simple emotional truth that we've been hurt by something. My own ways of dealing with this though, might not be much better, at least on first blush. I've found that, when someone levels something hurtful my way, really I do just have to live with it. Nothing will stop life from going on, and the hurt I felt may leave me or it may be carried with me, and there's not much I've found that gives me any influence over that. But connecting with others, as Outer Wilds suggests, does tend to offer chances to soothe old pains. I hope yours let you rest as easily enough as you need, knowing that people before, after, and alongside you have felt the same ways as you have, and that this shared experience isn't unoriginality or a lack of uniqueness, but a beautiful, shared, human connection. I can't really bring myself to play Final Fantasy XIII anymore. Inevitably I do get bored and lose interest, or get frustrated when a battle doesn't seem to want to agree with my strategy and my following break turns into complete abandonment of the save file. But, one playthrough, some time after watching your series on it, was absolutely golden. I managed to immerse myself deep into the game's systems, as I found real fun optimising each battle for completion time and gained mastery over it, and found my head swimming in the game's own connected threads of story and messaging, its seeming intents of messaging interrupted by various failures but still visible if you peer just a bit deeper. I could re-experience something meaningful to me with new understanding, which is not a common opportunity for someone to get. So thanks for introducing lil ol' me to the world of good criticism. I hope it continues to serve and fulfill you well, despite everything that can come along with it.
Never played this game but this is my favorite podcast episode 😭 definitely will rewatch this again and again.. (also i am somehow reminded of the entity from Chrono trigger)
1:10:00 I think, whenever yoy express your opinion/analysis you need some lvl of vulnerability, and being vulnerable and authentic is not bad, but brings alot of other people's opinions towards you. I think you are aware of this, but still, it hurts alot. You guys bring so much authenticity to what you are passionate about, that's why i watch you guys, and i simply love it. Is not scripted is not overly censored, it's raw and authentic. Keep what you love ti do it, until you guys want to.
one of my favorite games if not my favorite gaming experience. I agree with Mike that this game probably came at the right time in my life to hear what it was trying to say to us.
I reached the Sun Station very late into the game, and the realisation hit me then when I read the message in the main room. the music that plays during that moment is just incredible as it just sinks into you
Not entirely through yet but past the part that I'd assume you'd mention it. After the campfire music at the end of the universe you can talk to the travelers before you jump into the orb to end the game. They have some interesting things to say that you might enjoy discussing. Looking forward to the DLC discussion
This could be long. --- Solanum was the Nomai who as a child speculated that the Eye might be malevolent and have actively tricked the Nomai, then as a youth wrote that she thought it was probably indifferent. By the time you meet her on the verge of adulthood (it's not clear whether the visit to the Quantum Moon on coming of age follows attaining adulthood, or has been adopted as a ritual bestowing adulthood) she has adopted her clan's attitude of curiosity and hopes to one day discover what will happen if a conscious observer enters the Eye itself. --- Speaking of Solanum on the Quantum Moon, she was there when the Ghost Matter explosion wiped out the rest of her clan (and every other living being in the system not either underwater or in the interior of Dark Bramble). The versions/aspects of her on the Moon's in-system locations would also have been killed, leaving her skeleton, while the her in orbit around the Eye, safely out of range, survived, as a Schrodinger's Cat. Being mostly dead except around the Eye, where the laws of physics get a bit tenuous, it's not entirely clear how she experienced the quarter million years and change that passed. Time appears to flow normally for the Hatchling (player character) while you're there, so clearly something Timey-Wimey is going on. --- It quickly diverges, but the music that plays once you emerge from the Ash Twin Core with the advanced warp core starts out with the same chords as the music indicating the end of the cycle, which always gives me that moment of instinctive "oh s##t, time's up!" before I realise. --- A couple of cool things to try: - hang out in the Ash Twin Core as a loop ends, and observe the machinery working. You can even interact, which can lead to some interesting consequences... - before jumping into the Eye at the end, you can launch your Little Scout into it. If you don't recall it, something happens in the ending. --- My interpretation of the ending is that you/the Hatchling are the only person present, with the others being reflections/projections of the real people through your connections with them, much the same way as the Observatory isn't real, and the forest isn't literal - it's all the Hatchling's observation reducing the unfathomable alienness of the Eye to something that can be perceived and (to a degree) understood. The assembling of your fellow-travelers and the music is a tangible representation of what's most important, most _real_, most _true_ about the old universe, about the Hatchling's life. The old universe ends, but a conscious observer made it to the Eye, and, in the raw potential; the unformed quantum madness; the singularity that could be anything, but isn't any one thing until observed, the final duty of the old universe is performed as the conscious observer Observes, and in doing so collapses all the sterile potential into a single, fertile actuality. A new universe that, in due course, spawns life and campfires of its own. My take is that the Eye itself is not conscious - there is no four-dimensional alien trying to communicate - which is why a conscious observer is needed in order to kick off the new universe. The Hatchling's story ends here, when they Observe, but their story is just a prologue to the stories of the new universe, just as the Hearthians' story is a sequel to the Nomai. And, as shown by the variations in the final scene, the details of the new universe depend on the details of the observer - if you never connected with Solanum, never had that personal link to the Nomai, the new universe is a different one than if you did. There's more to say about the ending and the game's metaphysics, but some of it will touch on things in the DLC, so I'll save it for later. --- The optimistic mood of the ending (and the game as a whole) comes largely from the attitudes of the characters - even Chert says positive things: "The stars were beautiful, weren’t they? Even if our star is what ultimately killed us. I’ll wait here and remember them while you gather everybody." or "Even if it’s over now, I had a good time learning. But I think the rules are about to change." The message of the game is very much that everything and everyone dies, but they can pass on what really matters to the future - every generation gives way to the next, but the ending of one story brings the start of the next, and, just as what our ancestors were helped to shape us, what we are will help shape our descendants, and that is a form of true immortality. --- On a personal note, I was watching random UA-cam videos on the evening of the 31st of December last year, and, just about midnight, the one I happened to be watching at the time started up the Travelers theme - the song played at the final campfire - which seemed weirdly appropriate - an ending and beginning. --- Speaking of interpretations of the end and the new world to come, C S Lewis wrote his interpretation/understanding of the end into The Last Battle. --- When it comes to trying to understand 2001, I recommend reading the book - Clarke put down in words what Kubrick attempted to convey visually. --- I don't know if you've played Horizon: Zero Dawn, but it has some thematic connections. I won't say any more so as not to spoil the game, but if you've played through, you should know what I'm talking about.
So many thoughts after watching this! This is my favourite game of all time too. It instantly dethroned all those 90's and early 2000 classics that have occupied that space for so many years now. There is no piece of medium like this game in my opinion. It's a breathtakingly beautiful experience. It honestly feels like it was made specifically for me. The day after I finished Outer Wilds, I felt like I had 20 years of built up nostalgia for it. It felt like I grew up with this game, even if I had just finished it. Solanum was on the quantum moon when the ghost matter blanketed the system. She died on the other 5 locations of the quantum moon, but she didn't die on the 6th location. She is in essence Schrödinger's Solanum. She is dead, but on the 6th location, you observe her and collapse her waveform into a still living Solanum, because on the 6th location everything is in a super position, everything exists at once. As a massive Tolkien fan, I didn't even think of the similarity of creating the world through music. That was a beautiful parallel! My interpretation is that the eye allows us to influence the new universe. A sort of universe-evolution if you will. Inheriting aspects of the old one, through its last living species (you), who is the result of evolution in this old universe. I love this game so much. "Come, sit with me and watch the stars die"
(2) It is also interested, in my own reading of the ending scene, in gesturing at the problem of limits. Just as a fourth-dimensional being struggles to communicate with a three-dimensional being, so too does the three-dimensional being struggle to conceptualize and represent a being that obviously exists on a different level from it, the limit of knowledge so to speak. And the game is intentional about this theme. All throughout the game we partake in the joys of exploration, of uncovering far-flung frontiers and going where no man has ever gone before, partially in hopes of saving the universe, and partially to push the frontiers of Hearthian knowledge. In that sense, then, death and the Eye can be understood as the final frontier, the culmination of that quest for discovery and knowledge. As one goes beyond that final frontier of knowledge, one simultaneously has to accept whatever may be with peace and equanimity, knowing that our efforts will live on in the next generation i.e., the birth of a new world following the inevitable death of the old one.
55:30 Our character, the Hatchling, does not play an instrument. But the composer has said that the Hatchling's instrument, musically, is the Cello. In particular, the rendition you hear in two places: 1. When standing on Timber Hearth at sunrise. 2. At the end of the game, in the "14.3 Billion Years Later" scene.
This episode was beautiful. It makes sense. I will never understand what you feel, but I get where you're going, and thats the exact beauty of it. I too stood on the precipice, I too struggled with just being myself, but through you guys, through everyone, I know I'm not just this
The image that stuck with me is the eye, the player and the universe relate to each other like an egg, sperm and a human. The eye calls out, lures the player / nomai into a set of challenges to make sure they are fit for the purpose, and it takes the effort of all the nomai and the player to actually get the player into the eye. The player then ends and out of him, something far bigger is created. The player does not need to do anything for this, the information stored in his head is all the eye needs to get going. And what comes out of the whole process might be different, but it inherit's lots of the player.
One way to make it easier if you've ever been to the Vessel is to go into the ship's log and turn on tracking for the Vessel, which will make its location appear on your HUD.
@@orcbrand You seem to have a similar momentum coming out of a bramble portal, no matter how fast you were going (nor at what angle) when you flew into it, so there's not a lot to gain by trying to fly faster on approach (and a risk of not cutting engines early enough...)
I'm so glad you guys decided to play this game. Spec Ops was winning the vote and I was sad thinking you probably wouldn't cover it. I'm so happy that you got so much out of it because it's truly an incredible game.
I just wanted to say to Mike that a lot of what you said resonantes with me. Without going into detail, I do understand a lot of what your describing with regard to the feeling of isolation and not connecting. I feel like I connect in simple ways with many people but perhaps not in a true, deep sense. Also, there is a sense of fear in me as well that I believe stems from not accepting things as they are. I catch myself trying to escape, at least in my mind or thoughts. Anyway, I appreciate what you both are doing. I started with your podcast on Xenogears, which I also loved and has stuck with me over all these years. Don’t let the negativity slow you guys down or make you second guess yourselves.
You are the eye of the next universe that watches and makes it real or stay. Your instrument/song is the signal you send out to those in the next universe to find you. But that's just a theory
Very pleased that you guys came off this game having as positive an experience as I suspected you might. I'm not gonna lie, in previous episodes whenever you guys entertain the idea that you're going to save the universe I couldn't help but get a wry smirk on my face and think "Man, this ending might hit them harder than they're expecting." I think the fact that Mike had such a hard time describing how it made him feel is emblematic of the profound effect this game had on many of us who have played and loved it. It shows how this game is sort of resistant to this style of detailed coverage since you are objectively revealing the magic of it to people who have potentially not played it, and that the best way for them to understand is to experience it themselves. Probably the thing that stood out the most to me is how he mentions there not being any direct acts of violence within the game's mechanics. Even past games you've covered where the violence is intrinsic to the plot like Xenogears or Silent Hill 2 or even Spec Ops, it still is somewhat distracting that traditionally game design almost DEMANDS that players be killing something even within a profound narrative. It's a common refrain among fans of this game that it really is something you can only experience once, and if given the opportunity we would wipe our memory of it to experience it all over again. Like there are a bunch of esoteric trophies/achievements you can keep chasing and when I first finished the game I only had about 20+ percent of them complete. When I tried to go back to the game to track them down I just felt an intense sadness and quickly lose the will to keep playing. Don't get me wrong there are still some fun extra things you could find in the game by chasing achievements, but I think the brilliant thing about Outer Wilds' finale is that it lets you off the hook with its finality. Mentally, emotionally, spiritually, the game tells you with its ending that it's okay to let go of it, to move on and enjoy other things in your life. You often hear the cliche' among great pieces of media that it's about "the journey not the destination" and yet the journey of Outer Wilds compels and propels you towards its destination in a way that it can't help but stick with you when you get there. Looking forward to the DLC discussion though I'm a bit sad that Mike had it spoiled that there even is someone to meet before even touching it. Hopefully you've started it by the time you read this but one thing I absolutely love about it is how it strips your character of their literacy. Your ship log will still update with things you find but you are pretty much done with reading once you hit Echoes of the Eye. Despite there being a tutorial section at the start of the base game I think most would agree that the most valuable mechanic in the entire base game is reading comprehension. If you refuse to read you can't really make progress and yet that capability is taken away from you for this added part of an already brilliant game. Thanks and keep up the great work.
Hi Mike and Casen, I want to thank you for covering this beautiful, amazing game. I never heard of the Outer Wilds yet but after watching your podcast and watching various gameplay videos, I am going to attempt giving this game a try in the future. And Mike, I am also sorry to hear that even after all the FFXVI podcast episodes and the bonus episode where you clearly articulated yourself and why you felt about FFXVI the way you do, some people on Twitter STILL managed to misunderstand you. FFXVI did a horrible job of explaining itself from its story to the lore with a very subpar lore mechanic that is ironically worse than FFXIII's datalog mechanic and if I can be honest, there are some fans of this game and other media who will find any reason to not give you the respect you give to them. Speaking as someone who is neurodivergent, communication is a two way street and if you clearly communicate with someone while they themselves refuse to get on the street you made, this is not going to be your fault. Breaks in communication are not automatically a malicious thing because there are multiple influences to keep in mind like language, neurodiversity, etc. but if someone is intentionally misreading your attempts at communication while making up crap about you and acting like that "Twitter is the only place where you can say I like waffles, oh so you hate pancakes?!" meme, it is something that person will need to work on.
It is astonishing to me many people I’ve met that consider this their favorite game of all time. There must be something truly special in playing it that I just didn’t see with my time with it.
Regarding Mikes experience with Twitter criticism, feelings of isolation, inability to connect, etc: I 100% see and hear you on ALL of this. I couldn’t get into this game but have still listened to every episode of this series because I appreciate y’all’s thoughtful, good faith perspectives even when I’m not seeing or experiencing the same things, or outright disagree. When it comes to the criticism online, I could discuss this for hours… I’ve been a Final Fantasy fan for almost 30 years. It was a crucial element of escape from my own feeling of disconnection as a young person. However, I was readily able to admit my disappointments in and the short comings of FF16. I think some of that comes down to plain old maturity. But I’ve felt for a long time that much of the obsessive fandom I see online for brands feels like a bigger spiritual failing in our culture. Video games and stories can become a kind of coping mechanism for loneliness, which is fine in moderation. But some people don’t learn to separate it from the genuine and necessary real human connection they let it become a replacement for. People use brand fandom and attachment as a stand in for some hole we all carry inside us, which used to be more readily filled by organized religion (which I’m not personally wild about as a solution either.) It’s a hollow replacement for a sense of community, spirituality, or tribe… or something ineffable we all yearn for and are lacking. If you “attack” their brand you’ve attacked their god, some extension of themselves, or their ego. Online discourse is extremely context collapsed and holds no room for nuance or depth of perspective. I guess my point is I hope you can see that when people make such attacks online, when you know you’ve been operating from a place of mindfulness and good faith, it’s entirely about them. Not you. (PS - Just got to the part at the end about the camp fire. I’ve been doing a podcast called Camp Video Games since the beginning of this year, which while quite a bit sillier in tone than what you guys do, this is exactly the vibe we designed it around. www.youtube.com/@campvideogames )
I didn't have the same revelation during the ending as you did, but I'm glad you found the connection that you were missing. Something about the way the game was mostly science-based and then very quickly switched to the sentimentality of "Playing a song by a campfire" as the final act didn't sit right with me, although I'm not wholly against combining science with faith. All of the other explorers are more than a little distant and seemingly apathetic throughout the game, so I didn't buy that we had made any sort of connection or that that's what they represented. They seemed more than willing to stay isolated, as none of them ask to hitch a ride or anything or change their plans based on anything you say, so interacting with them didn't feel much different from reading more hieroglyphs and thus them being in the ending to me was a bit of a surprise, like they're old associates of the universe who won't do anything to help it or each other but will show up for its funeral.
I somewhat understand what Mike felt. Being a content creator means that people's eyes and ears are focused on you. However, not everyone understands or connects with you, as everyone differs in their level of interpretation, knowledge, and experience. Let's take church as an example. There are many versions of bibles and church teachings from a single source of information. When people sit and discuss it together, it might lead to arguments because they interpret it differently, which is very normal. When an argument occurs, everyone has a different way to react, a level of acceptance, and their limit. Some people might react calmly, shrug it off, and move on. Others might react impulsively and drag it for days or weeks. I've had a similar experience, and this perspective has helped me a lot. It doesn't always apply, but it often eases me. 'What other people think and say about you is none of your business'; you can't control them.
There are so many parallels between Outer Wilds and Sky: Children of Light, though Sky might be the internal version of this journey, focused on a supposed cyclical nature of consciousness and life rather than on external reality and the physics of universe. Sky is probably the game that had the hardest hitting ending for me of any game up until when I played it and so Outer Wilds ending lost a bit of its impact there for me as a result(though I thoroughly loved it as well). I think the two games might be very complimentary to each other though.
On the topic of the difficulty of communication, and people not properly listening: I wrote an essay on being personally disappointed in two games I had high expectations for. I went out of my way to explain that I was not criticizing the games themselves, merely explaining my personal disappointments, and extrapolating out why the issues became such a problem for me. I had a several people that didn't engage with the core of the essay and instead acted like I was attacking their favorite games, or making objective statements. They were clearly not listening to what I was saying. Or stopping the video before I could fully explain myself. It was extremely frustrating. A lot of people just don't want to have to deal with nuance. I am quite guilty of this myself in many areas.
Been enjoying this revisit to one of my favorite games (maybe my favorite? definitely in contention). The analysis here at the end really put into words some things the ending had made me feel, but that I didn't quite know how to articulate. I also empathize a lot with what Mike was saying with regards to communication. I've felt very similarly at most points in my life, and I think it's no coincidence this game resonates with that feeling. After all, the entire game is ultimately about communication - about language and the way our actions and our words can survive us to impact the future. I'm excited to see your take on the DLC, it's definitely a different take on the base game that I think adds new perspective on the base game's themes. P.S. There's a bit of optional content you can unlock in the Ash Twin Project that I'd consider it a shame for you guys to miss. It provides some insight into the Hearthean that really elevated the game's themes for me. I don't want to spoil how to access it, but I'll include a small nudge below if interested: Remember those experiments in the High Energy Lab on Ember Twin. They hold the key. The Ash Twin Project is the same thing on a much larger scale. So what would happen if you replicated the experiment there? What if you went a step further?
Mike, I don't know if you ever experienced with psychedelics and the community around those substances (festivals, retreats, etc.), but I really suggest you sail your DIY mind ship and go explore that world. Personally it has changed my hole life in so that it opened my mind to experience things outside of my prison and made me experience feelings I have been trying to reach my hole life. I was able to integrate those experiences into my life and it changed me. Never posted a comment on your channel, but I relate so much to what you said that I had to write those words to you, I just had to. One love. ❤️
I feel like you would get a lot out of taking mushrooms , Mike. These concepts of all of us being connected, one and the same , part of the whole. It s a really positive experience when you go into with that frame of mind
One thing you guys may have not got around to since you were at the end is the different options you have with the warp core at the end. such as pulling it out and letting the loop end or jumping into it at the end of the loop. (go back to the core after doing this one)
Regarding the "inevitability" of the end of the universe in Outer Wilds, I'm not sure that is the best word for it, even though it is technically correct. The reason is the connection between the universe cycling and the time cycling, which operate on the same principle. There, it isn't so much that the time loop reset is "inevitable" but that, in a sense, it has already happened. The distinction is between an inescapable attractor in the future, and the constituency of the present as being made possible by that which is already the case. The structure of the loop is one of a promise. A promise that what already started the loop will come to fruition, in the sacrifice of whatever it is that starts the loop to the black hole (whether the small one of the warp core or the big one of the Eye). However, one thing that I'm not sure the game gets right is the idea that that promise can be broken, as happens if one turns off the black hole after the probe or the player comes out the other side and before they can go in. In the ultimate sense, there is no reality outside of the reality that is supposedly being broken there to mediate the breaking. As such, the promise is one of a choice that is inherent to the structure of reality. If you've seen Interstellar, right before the docking scene, the main character says that what they're about to do isn't impossible, but necessary, in part because in order to have gotten to where they are, they must have already succeeded. Likewise, the completion of the loop is a free choice in the moment, but it is a choice that is paradoxically necessary, because it has already been made. A slightly obtuse example might be how the notion of infinity relates to the number line. Typically, infinity is conceived of as "a really big number", where if one finds oneself at any given number, one can always find a bigger number. However, it isn't really that infinity is off at one end of the number line, because infinity always already defines the direction of the number line _at every number_. Infinity isn't something that one eventually gets to in some future time. It is already present at every number, or to extend the metaphor to Outer Wild's time, the future choice to reset the universe is already present at every instant because it is that which makes those instants possible. I'll leave the connection between love as the already made choice to binding of oneself to the Good and the choice to sacrifice oneself to reset the universe as a choice that has already been made as an exercise to the reader.
Btw I know I've been pretty critical of you sometimes Mike, but I'm still here! :3 Try not to take it too personally, as in taking the sole blame for, when others don't completely understand what you're trying to say. Communication is a two-way street, and listening is an art in itself. Being able to observe, gather, listen, decipher, conceptualize and recite other people's words or ideas is beyond complicated. People have their own priorities as well when it comes to what they take away from a discussion
Yoooo just started the episode. I finished the game this past weekend and told my girlfriend I think this might be my favorite game of all time. She couldn't believe me lol
Having to put a creative work out to the world in any capacity is incredibly tumultuous. Not knowing how people will respond to something you put a bit of your soul into is scary. Fear of the unknown is completely valid, and when people rip into a work you make that also feels disheartening. Some people want to hear endless praise for a game they enjoy so they will jump ship at the first sign of criticism. Others want to hear people rip into things they hate so they can dismantle it even more. But so few want to analyze the whole and understand what works and what doesn’t. It’s totally fair to feel frustrated when people don’t take the time to understand what your saying, or when people disagree completely. Learning to be okay with what you create and enjoying it for you is difficult on so many levels. It is incredibly brave to be so open and vulnerable.
Mike, I thought you and Casin(sp?) did an excellent job with your analysis of FF16. Too many people only heard what you said, but did not listen. They were looking to satiate their need for confirmation bias by listening to you, and when they didn't get it, the cognitive dissonance kicked in. FF16 was a fun game, but it was also a flawed game. If people are unwilling to admit that and want to attack you for having an opinion, then they have probably have larger problems in their life and should probably take a break from the internet. Keep doing this thing you're doing, I listen every week and enjoy the deeper level of analysis that so many of these beautiful works of art deserve.
Man, listening to this on wireless headphones around the house. Hearing the ending music start fading in over you talking hits a little different on an episode about Outer Wilds.
Mike, people not understanding you on the internet is something you shouldn't take too personally because most people on the internet lack reading comprehension. you can say the sky is blue and they will swear you said the sky is anything but blue.
We are aware that Solanum is not actually wearing the third mask that is recording and sending information back in time. We'll correct this next episode.
"I had a spiritual experience at the end of this game"
ONE OF US. ONE OF US.
Mike, perhaps it isn't about you being unclear, not about your ability to communicate, but moreso about others' lack of effort to understand. That's not to say to go ahead and place blame outside yourself, but communication emerges by sender AND receiver.
Mike, Casen, excellent work, I find real meaning from your podcast.
These two are some of the most eloquent people on the whole internet. Mike deserves to find someone who will always try to cross the chasm of the imperfectness of words as symbols in his personal life but i hope he knows he's got lots of us here across space and time who get him like he wishes
This right here. They explain themselves so damn near perfectly clear. And yet, there are still people who don't listen to what's being said.
Exactly this.
That's exactly what it is. Most people do not have the attention span to watch an almost two hour long video, let alone understand what Mike and Casen are saying.
5:26
I appreciate that Casen is more willing to share personal views now compared to earlier podcasts. His perspectives on life and the world in general are valid reference points for his own personal interpretation of a story; same with Mike as well as every single viewer.
“I did everything I could to save the universe, but the universe told me no. And it was beautiful.”
I greatly appreciate the way that Mike brought his his whole self to this episode as he's done a number of times during shows this past year. Its very rare in any media content to see creators who aren't afraid to show their raw genuine personalities and emotions, and to speak from the heart. I appreciate content where real people aren't afraid to be real people and aren't afraid to approach the big uncomfortable philosophical questions about what it means to exist. This episode was that in spades.
My favorite game selections tend to be the ones with lots of room for interpretation. This creates a fuzzier canvas for Mike and Casen to bring their own personalities and viewpoints and it becomes as much a show about them and about the human condition as it is about the games, their objectives, and their developers. It also nails the goal of bringing traditional conceptual analysis seen in literature and applying it to this newer medium.
Thanks for another great series
What an excellent comment. This is what makes this channel, the creators, and their art and chats so valuable and enjoyable to listen to.
I love hearing such thoughtful commentary on games and life. I feel my own mind open and kick into gear with thoughts. Lovely.
1:14:25
Mike, whatever you are referring to here, it is very brave of you to share your experiences and show your emotions. I've heard stories about the "precipice" from people in my own life and I've heard similar things about a sudden, overwhelming sensation of peace and beauty. I struggle with death anxiety, but I hope you don't mind me saying stories such as yours bring me a certain level of comfort. Your drive towards the importance of acceptance is inspiring and admirable.
As a side note, you do communicate to the viewers in a healthy and productive way. I don't think there are any creators on this entire platform who advocate for healthy discussion between creators and viewers more than you and Casen do.
What an unbelievable episode. Talk about struggling to communicate something to others? It pains me that I probably won’t be able to explain to others exactly why they need to play Outer Wilds just so they get to watch this Resonant Arc episode and experience it in full.
Mike and Casen, I have no words. This was extraordinary.
I love you Mike. Being someone I respect and knowing you struggle with the same issues of isolation I just want to say thank you for being so open. You, Casen and this podcast have helped me feel more connected in a meaningful way. Words as usual don’t do justice so I’ll say it again: I love you!
(1) Most definitely a top 5 episode in the history of the Resonant Arc podcast. I think Mike and Casen alluded to many salient concepts in the history of ideas in this episode, such as the "sublime" (Edmund Burke) and the task of cultivating an "openness to Being" (Martin Heidegger).
One idea I'd like to focus on is Mike's point of "connection" as a key theme of Outer Wilds, and Tolstoy's concept of art. For Tolstoy, art can be understood as a deeply human and ethical activity:
“To evoke in oneself a feeling one has once experienced, and having evoked it in oneself, then, by means of movements, lines, colors, sounds, or forms expressed in words, so to transmit that feeling that others may experience the same feeling - this is the activity of art."
Outer Wilds has cemented itself as art from the Tolstoyan perspective, in that it functions as a medium to transmit feelings from the developers to the player and, through the conduit of this podcast, from Mike to us. Just as the protagonist is himself the campfire to bring all the people in his life into a coherent whole, the game also brings to itself diverse people from all over the whole who have been transformed by this experience.
If you roast the marshmallow at the end, it really feels like you are a conductor with your wooden wand.
Right now I'm watching the section at ~32:00 where Mike is talking about how he needed to accept that he wasn't going to save the universe, that the universe was going to end, there was nothing he could do to stop it, and the game has been telling him that since its outset. Mike's experience with that realization and his reaction to it threw something into relief for me due to how different it was from my experience, made me reminisce about another media property, and made me appreciate a small part of the design of the game that you guys didn't mention.
The fact that Mike felt that he needed to further engage with the game world, to talk to the other explorers and find the answers to the last few questions and secrets, before he was willing to accept the reality and move on made me greatly appreciate that the design of the game allows the player for as much time as they need, even an infinite amount of time, to accept this fact before they move on to the end of the game. While I may have moved on to the end of the game immediately upon figuring out that particular puzzle, it would not surprise me if there are many people who had similar experiences to Mike, where they take out the warp core, realize the enormity of that action, then immediately return it in place and go back to the universe. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if there are some people who were never able to finish the game because of this feeling, instead perpetually staying in the loop. And I think it is an act of great generosity by the devs that you are given all the time you need to make this decision. You are not punished in any way for returning the warp core to the Ash Twin Project. You do not pass a Point of No Return or get a Ticking Clock the moment you remove the warp core, forcing you into the endgame. You are allowed to choose, entirely on your own, when you are ready to go to the end of the game.
This was very reminiscent of another media property I have great fondness for: The Good Place. Not to go too far into spoilers here, but in the last few episodes of the last season of the series, the main characters of the show are obliged to come to terms to a similar realization about death and their own existence. And similarly to the Outer Wilds, that show allows the characters as much time as they need to come to terms with that realization and finally accept it, with each of the characters having a different reaction and requiring a different amount of time. The grace that the showrunners had in how they allowed each character to respond in there own way is one of the reason I like that show so much, and is very much in line with how the Outer Wilds devs have designed the end of their game for their players.
Dude I also got huge The Good Place vibes from this game and this podcast episode.
This is why I come to Resonant Arc. Easily on the best episodes you guys have ever produced. Mike, your vulnerability is refreshing and always welcomed. We connect with you because of these personal moments just as much as we do for the game content.
Mikes hair looks like he is dressing up as Casen for Halloween and I’m all for it.
My favorite thing about this ending is that the idea of people being three dimensional beings incapable of understanding whats happening can also be described as us being "two-dimensional," and unable to care about what the game's explanation for what's happening, unless they make it meaningful to us and our journey.
This was a beautiful episode. I don't have another way to describe it. That intro gave me instant goosebumps, and I knew, "Oh man, this is going to be good!" I was not disappointed.
Also, I wanted to thank you, Mike, for getting vulnerable there for a bit. That's not easy to do for the whole world to see. I highly respect that. I could tell in your eyes when you started talking about the ending, something was resonating deep within you. I was either thinking that or the lighting was weird to make your eyes look off, lol. But then, seeing you get vulnerable about your experience, then I knew I wasn't seeing things.
I wanted to let you know that you are not alone in feeling like people can't understand what you say. I feel the same. I think that's a part of why I've become such a huge introvert (among other reasons). Like Casen was saying "if it's not going to be heard, then why bother saying anything at all." Or something like that. I very much have that mindset. And then when I do talk, I tend to overdo it for the sake of making sure people understand what I'm trying to say so it's not misinterpreted. Like you, I want people to understand what I say. More often than not, that's not the case.
Keep up the awesome work you guys. I love watching your videos so much. It always brightens my day.
I feel for Mike in his trying to communicate as well as possible. I feel like there is always the possibility of a barrier of a willingness to listen and understand that can often make Communication more difficult than it should be.
It’s not often a game can make you realize a profound change and growth in yourself, but when those games hit they hit *hard*
I still can't quite believe that we got Outer Wilds and Disco Elysium in the same year.
There’s always a point where you have to say. I’ve done enough to reach this person. Whether it’s communication or trying to help them. If the other person is unwilling to be helped, you can’t reach them.
As it currently stands both Mike and Casen have a whole community that can vouch that they are open to ideas and giving things the benefit of a doubt. Mike sharing his experiences within the eye and the ending only cements this.
Personal I always struggle with this because I find it hard to have perspective on whether or not I have done enough or if the other party isn’t doing enough when there is a breakdown in understanding. I’m sure Casen knows exactly what it’s like when a Holy Book is misrepresented in a shameful way. But such is life.
I’m glad both Mike and Casen are living there best lives.
Felt inspired to comment about my own experiences with communication and connection. When I was young I remember being told to "calm down" or that I seemed too impassioned when I had an idea about something no one particularly cared about. I was able to get by with friends who had similar interests, but for everyone else I became quiet and withdrawn. While not quite the same response Mike had, I think it's a response to similar experiences. Especially when you mentioned that commenters had described an opinion you shared as an "outburst". That's a word I can understand why they chose (or maybe Mike chose), but I can also recognize that act of expressing an idea coming off as more impassioned than was intended. Wanting to be understood, only to have other people recoil from a situation they read as tense or standoffish; fight or flight.
I love Mike and Casen's interpretation of the ending meaning connection. I've accepted that the relatively few meaningful connections I have are deeply meaningful, be it a person who understands me and welcomes my expression of ideas (my wife), or those around the campfire who are joined by their shared experience without need for words (my friends with whom I share interests).
Tangential, but I also want to point out that I find it difficult to attach a deep meaning to many experiences on my own, but rather I extrapolate meaning empathically by how experiences affect others. That being said it has been a delight to watch your analyses of content I've enjoyed for one reason or another, and truly special for games like these where your insights and reactions actually elevate not only my understanding but emotional connection to the material. Thank you for producing such stellar work!
This has to be your guys best podcast to date that ive seen, and I appreciate Mike's willingness to speak about how deep his experience was with the game. This game is also my personal favorite by a pretty considerable margin, so its cathartic to listen to people's blind experiences about it.
I enjoy following the progression of Mike's hair
One thing I love about the conversation with Solanum. (Spoilers beyond)
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When she's on the Quantum Moon there are six different versions of her that all exist at once. She happened to be there when all the Nomai died out, so the five at the various planets perished and the one at the sixth location in orbit around the Eye survived. What's fun is this means when the Hearthian is on the Moon's surface, there are five other versions of them that must exist in the other locations too. We just never get to see them.
For what it's worth, which ain't much, but what Mike speaks about regarding not feeling like one is able to connect with others, feeling trapped, the frustration at others misinterpreting our intentions, I'd just like to say you aren't alone in feeling that.
If you did feel alone that is. These days I feel it more and more, like its all circling the drain and everyone could put the plug in if they worked together to stop it but they'd rather argue about who pulled the plug out in the first place.
But what you spoke of, that recognition of something greater in conciousness, that made a lot of sense to me. I caught a glimpse of something that isn't what I'd call confirmation of God or anything. I think Terry Pratchett articulated a similar sounding experience as seeing "where gods come from."
An underlying layer of our being that's pretty freaking sweet. I felt whole. Content. And that there wasn't anything to be all that afraid of in the end. Maybe that is God I dunno.
But uh, yeah. Videogames. This one sounds pretty good. Ahem.
Weirdly, listening to Mike talk about communication and stuff here helped me deal with something that's been eating me for like... three or four months now. To just accept it. So, thank you for that.
Edit: Had a relationship end over a miscommunication. And by the time I was finally able to sort that out, it was far to late to fix things. And so it was eating at me for a while about what I should have done different, or how did I mess up? But yah, you just have to accept that communication is imperfect. It takes acceptance. Struggling against it doesn't help.
Even this explanation kind of sucks, but I just mean I get what he was saying and I feel it.
Thank you for covering this game and experiencing it and sharing that experience. It is truly my favorite game of all time and I want as many people as possible to experience it. They may not like it as much as me, or have the same experience I did at a time in my life when it hit me really hard. But some will and that’s enough.
And especially to Mike and what he shared with his personal struggles. It’s not easy to do that and I hope if nothing else it was cathartic for you.
Looking forward to Echoes of the Eye. My favorite DLC of all time.
Thank you for sharing this with the internet, guys. I usually don't watch your analyses of games I haven't played - especially ones I'd be interested in playing some day - but I'm glad I watched this one anyway. Your personal connections with this game were powerful, and I'm not sure I'd be brave enough to share them so freely.
Also, I'm looking forward to Tactics Ogre!
This also became my favorite game of all time. I am very happy that others feel the same way I do about this wonderful work of art.
I discovered this channel years ago, exploring my love of FF. I remember thinking at the time that nothing would move me and mean as much to me as FF7 when I played it when I was 13. 25 years later, outer Wilds swept it away. It came at a time when I was working a difficult job, supporting a family, experiencing regular panic attacks, a world away from my 13 year old self. It changed me and helped me to break out of the world of anxiety and fear I had created for myself. I'm so grateful for having played it and the part it played in helping me to break out of my problems. I am so glad that it has been as impactful for others.
Indeed, this game is somehow the most faithful translation of a heavy, ego-death-inducing, peeking-behind-the-veil, bro-I-think-I-took-too-much, type of psychedelic trip.
Or at least what you bring back from it.
Forget about the beautiful visual arts, shamanic music and whatnots. The madlads at Moebius Digital did it right there with cutesy graphics and a banjo.
Mike... What you talked about here, how you try your best to articulate and people don't understand? I'm gonna tell you something as a person who sees a lot of myself in you: Mike... it's not you, it's them. Trust me. There are people who don't have the capacity to understand (for many different reasons) and in many cases it is not even their own fault. But be certain that it's not because you didn't properly communicate. You are one of the rare people I could listen to talk for hours (as I am indeed doing). Casen too. If there is anyone out there despising you, that's on them.
Hey guys just wanted to say that I love this podcast, It's been a highlight for me for the last 2 plus years. Love your conversations and the clarity of them. You guys are so easy to listen to and through that I am able to make connections to games that I never would have been able to articulate myself and have made the games you've covered have a lasting impact in my mind long after I've finished them. Thank you for that Mike and Casen.
1:14:00 what you are saying hits me so hard. I have always struggled with emotions and communication and because of me always looking older and being taller than what I was, i was always expected to be older. all that made me shut off from others cause it made me feel nobody wanted to understand. I know i am wrong in that assessment but it doesn't change the fact that I still get that feeling. Add on top of that that many people misinterpreted my words and it makes things hard. When i have those small moments when people that understand or try to it makes things worth it so i keep trying now days. but that feeling is always still there.
You'll be understood more through your words in time than by the few you'll meet in person, just know there are people out there who get you even if you never hear their response.
I also had the "Oh, I should put this back" moment the first time I removed the warp core, but I think once I went into the Eye and actually did the ending that doing that and going round one more time and making sure I'd really taken it all in was the right thing to do.
When we jump into the eye it's our memories that come out and set the seed for the new universe. The other travellers, Solanum and the DLC character aren't physically there, but we brought them with us because we remember them.
Every one of them adds to the possibilities of the future, which we can resolve into a reality by going there to observe it.
Haven't played this but have been really loving these episodes! This ending reminds me a lot of my favorite movie, Cloud Atlas. Especially the coming together at a bonfire and Casen talking about the music. The true true.
I love your coverage of this game, easily one of my favorite! The way I understood Solanum being in the 6th location is that when the ghost matter was released and killed everything in the solar system, she was on the quantum moon. Since quantum objects location is unknown (or at all places at the same time), whether she was in any other location or at the 6th location depends on the observer. She ends up being both dead and alive ala Schrodinger's Cat. This is why she mentions she is unsure of whether she is really alive.
-Also, on the subject of the third mask - My understanding is that the third mask belongs to the probe cannon module - Through it the data of the probes is sent back in time.-
Those of us who get it, get it. No need to explain yourself. This is my favorite game of all time too. It's phenomenal.
And, if possible, I think that the DLC is even better (at least from a gameplay standpoint). It also ties so beautifully into the main game, both in terms of story and themes.
I'm so glad that you guys played this when you did, and that it resonated with you so well.
::)
So glad it hit so well for you both. This game inspired my very first tattoo, that's how meaningful it was for me
What an amazing commentary. You so beautifully explored the profound sense of contentment, wonder and awe that I too felt at the end of the game. The universe is going to end, my life is going to end, a new world will emerge over time that is not my world, that will be at least as unrecognizable to me as now would be to a woman or man of the 18th century, but the choices I make and things I perceive--the choices other make and things they see--will inform that world, and there is beauty just in making connections and smelling the pine trees along the way. Both the struggle and the moments of unexpected beauty and peace are their own rewards. I'm pretty old. I'm only a couple of years younger than my dad was when heart disease took him. I expect to live a few years longer than he did, longer than my younger brother who has already died, but I am far closer to the end than to the beginning, and I feel that each day: I can hear those familiar first chords of "End Times." I too have stood at that precipice a few times in my life, and that end no longer scares me. And I still remember that moment of realization while reading all the notes in the ASh Twin Project that, no, I couldn't stop the sun from exploding...and that was all right, because I could finish what the Nomai had set out to accomplish hundreds of thousands of years before I was born, and that would do, it would have to do. It was all I could do.
Yes, the only other piece of art I can compare that ending to is the final sequence of 2001: A Space Odyssey. I first saw it at nine yeaars old, just after it came out, and certainly didn't feel the profundity on that viewing--I was intrigued and mystified. It was only later that I realized how much it is about hanging on in those last few days, looking toward a new world you don't understand and won't be apart of, but that will be informed by all the things you experienced. Earlier on, Outer Wilds slowly displaced 2001 as my favorite piece of art about space exploration that truly gave the sensation of what that kind of travel and discovery must *feel* like--the danger and awe, the alternating tedium and bursts of discovery. I thought of 2201 almost immadiately after my first landing in Outer Wilds, the sound of my character breathing reminding me instantly of the long spacewalk sequence in 2001, where the soundtrack is mostly just the sound of Frank Poole's breathing over the intercom.
I'm going to put off watching the remaining episodes here. As much as I loved the base game, I bounced off the DLC when I first tried it right after release. Only since then have I recalled that I bounced off the main game with my first attempt, intrigued but knowing I was going into a period of work that would take all my mental energy, and sensing at the locator on the Attlerock that his game would demand and reward a certain amount of attention. I will re-challenge Echoes of the Eye sometime in the next year, and then I'll return to hear your take on it.
Thank you for sharing your discussion of your deeply engaged playthrough of this game, which became a permanent fixture in my top five games of all time, as it did for you.
I know it won't change how it makes you feel but please don't let a few people on the internet carry so much weight on your self image. The loudest voices are always going to be the people who have extreme reactions. There will always be people on the extremes of the bell curve of your audience and who knows what's going on in those people's lives. I also am someone who usually looks inward first to try and fix a problem, but the reality is you could have articulated yourself perfectly and there will still be people who don't hear you for any number of reasons. I also acknowledge that you don't have the luxury I do to just ignore social platforms considering you guys need to have a public presenece on the internet as part of your business. So some of this is easy for me to say as a relatively private person. I can just unplug and walk away from this stuff when it gets me down. In that way you have my sympathies.
Listening to Mike talk about this game really made me wanna give it another shot. I’ve been listening to the podcast not having played this game or playing it with you guys which is something I do pretty often.
I tried starting this game but I wasn’t able to get into it at the start. Now I wanna give it another go. At this point I know the whole story and I’ll likely not get the same experience that Mike did but I still wanna give it another go.
I’m glad to see Mike so passionate about this game and how much it affected him. Also thank you Mike for sharing your very personal and intimate feelings about your struggles with connecting with people.
On the topic of FFXVI… I’m sorry you guys got so much hate on that podcast. I understand you guys didn’t enjoy the game and as a result it seemed to me that it was not your best work. I don’t think that excuses anyone being shitty to you guys in the comments or on Twitter.
That being said I did comment respectfully and in good faith my thoughts about you guys’ takes on certain things in the game and I didn’t get a response. I apologize if maybe my comments were misconstrued as not being respectful or in good faith. Or maybe I just got lost in all the comments.
I really respect both of you and can’t get enough of the podcast, it’s truly a highlight of my week. Even when you guys aren’t at what I would describe as “not your best” with FFXVI. I been hooked ever since I stumbled upon the reuploads of the FFVIII podcast and I havent missed an episode and sometimes I'll rewatch stuff like the FFT or Xenogears podcast when I need something to listen to at work. This podcast has become very important to me.
Keep up the great work!
This episode has got to be one of my favourites from you guys. Mike, I get so much of what you're saying about acceptance and connection to people. It's hard to articulate, to even put down words since I hardly ever leave comments like these. I just want to show you my appreciation for both of you. The stuff you guys talk about with these podcasts, it has deepened my love for games/movies and just the art of storytelling as a whole. These podcasts have had a strong impact on my life. Mike, there are so many people who love you. I don't know if you are Christian but I have a strong hope we'll see each other in heaven someday. Same for you Casen.
Mike, it's incredible that you had the experience of people totally missing what you were saying about FF16 by not engaging with the totality of what you were saying because I thought you guys would have gotten more out of that game if you had just read the active time lore lol.
But... you did a great job explaining exactly what you meant. FF16 did a poor job of explaining itself with a very subpar game mechanic. You do a better job of relaying your thoughts to your audience than the FF16 development team did lol
I just wanted to add a quote I saw at my mother's house lately. That relate to what Cassen said about rebuilding our connection with nature:
“One of the first conditions of happiness is that the link between man and nature shall not be broken.” -Leo Tolstoy
This is also my favorite game of all time.
Just a thought. I think the "it's all going to end, so it doesn't matter if I don't make it with the warp core. The important part is the acceptance" is not quite the message here. If I may, I think there's an obligation to strive and hold on to life as you struggle up hill to the end because there is an outcome that will live beyond you. I think the fact that there's different endings in response to your decisions proves this point. So, the theme is not just acceptance in and of itself. The theme is to strive and struggle and be content that although you may not arrive at the promised land, because of you there may be others that will - and even if not, there is beauty in your effort regardless of the outcome.
Love your podcast - loved this coverage, and I agree completely. I tried the game when it came out.. it just really didn't click. (In fact I didn't even get my ship into space.. I just wasn't feeling it)
- After coming back to it, and really giving it a shot.. I felt profoundly changed. I felt destroyed, and completely hopeful for the future. Its hard to put into words and I'm sure you felt similarly. (And anyone else who played it.)
The DLC is wonderful as well.
As a side note:
- A game that also gave me similar spiritual 'change' but not in the same cosmic scope sense... was Kentucky Route Zero.
Yo same here lol. I started playing the game and I just wasn’t really feeling it but now I can’t wait to start it again
Wishlisted Kentucky Route Zero due to this comment.
I watched your last episode of your no commentary playthrough, and even though I couldn't hear you say anything, I could tell how deeply you were fully in the moment spiritually, just from what you were looking at, when you chose to look at things, and the length of time you were taking it all in. It's like once the initial awe subsided and the message came across, you slowed down to take in and savor each moment. It was a beautiful thing.
I actually whooped aloud when Mike was describing the “spiritual experience” he had with this game. The way I explain it to people is that I felt something at the end of this game that I haven’t felt from anything else. The only thing that’s come close is the game Journey. OW revealed something to me about my humanity and my relationship with the universe that I just hadn’t been exposed to prior to playing.
I played Outer Wilds at the very beginning of a relationship change between me and the religion I grew up believing. I attribute OW with helping me accept aspects of myself and spirituality that I’d been resisting. And it helped me find myself in a weird way.
Glad the guys have enjoyed it. This podcast series has been phenomenal.
I remember finishing the game, i was extremely in awe and contempt. It was really empty but at the same time, happy for finishing it.
Hey Mike. Following these videos, your side of the analysis of this game has been so satisfying to see. To see you peer into Outer Wilds' themes, messaging, and tone, feeling through it all from the beginning, and to see you grasp onto the threads this game gives you before you've seen the whole woven tapestry of this story that is beautiful in one of the most meaningful senses of the word, it's been such a joy to listen to your understanding of it.
My first encounter with your analysis content was with discovering your Final Fantasy XIII discussion series. That game is one that's been very meaningful to me personally, as I played it at a young age and continued to identify with its tone and feeling for many years after that. Because of that, much of the common criticism frustrated me to no end. All of the endless "It's just one long hallway"/"The battles are automatic, the game plays itself"/"The characters are annoying" just felt like people dumping on my favourite story because it was popular, to get on the bandwagon, all the more so because they didn't apply at all to my own experiences, and I just couldn't connect with theirs. Your discussion series at the time, for me, felt like the opposite. It was exploring something with effort, mapping out its inner workings with genuine care to know why it doesn't quite tick right, like a toymaker repairing a beloved companion. The breakdowns of internal story mechanics, the research into development, and the clear and digestible explanations all were like seeing daylight after ages of gloom. It was one of the first times in my life that criticism of something I loved impacted me positively, and made me able to connect more and deeper with a story I cared for.
Outer wilds is a game with such a beautiful story. One about how learning and caring about history grows your perspective on the present, and that even though one day you and everything you love will be history that the world and life in it will still be as good and beautiful and vividly meaningful as before you'd left it. It's a story that makes me understand on an emotional level what the term 'universally human themes' means. My fiance introduced me to it years ago, and we still talk about it today. It really is one of the best games ever, without any hyperbole.
I'm sorry to hear that some people have levelled less thought-out and considerate criticism about your work towards you, and to hear about how it's affected you. I'm well aware that the common advice for this criticism is often "grow a thick skin"/"It's just some random person on the internet", or generally anything that attempts to diminish the situation. I'm just as aware that this advice is bullshit and unhelpful, as it betrays an ignorance to the simple emotional truth that we've been hurt by something. My own ways of dealing with this though, might not be much better, at least on first blush. I've found that, when someone levels something hurtful my way, really I do just have to live with it. Nothing will stop life from going on, and the hurt I felt may leave me or it may be carried with me, and there's not much I've found that gives me any influence over that. But connecting with others, as Outer Wilds suggests, does tend to offer chances to soothe old pains. I hope yours let you rest as easily enough as you need, knowing that people before, after, and alongside you have felt the same ways as you have, and that this shared experience isn't unoriginality or a lack of uniqueness, but a beautiful, shared, human connection.
I can't really bring myself to play Final Fantasy XIII anymore. Inevitably I do get bored and lose interest, or get frustrated when a battle doesn't seem to want to agree with my strategy and my following break turns into complete abandonment of the save file. But, one playthrough, some time after watching your series on it, was absolutely golden. I managed to immerse myself deep into the game's systems, as I found real fun optimising each battle for completion time and gained mastery over it, and found my head swimming in the game's own connected threads of story and messaging, its seeming intents of messaging interrupted by various failures but still visible if you peer just a bit deeper. I could re-experience something meaningful to me with new understanding, which is not a common opportunity for someone to get.
So thanks for introducing lil ol' me to the world of good criticism. I hope it continues to serve and fulfill you well, despite everything that can come along with it.
Never played this game but this is my favorite podcast episode 😭 definitely will rewatch this again and again.. (also i am somehow reminded of the entity from Chrono trigger)
1:10:00
I think, whenever yoy express your opinion/analysis you need some lvl of vulnerability, and being vulnerable and authentic is not bad, but brings alot of other people's opinions towards you.
I think you are aware of this, but still, it hurts alot.
You guys bring so much authenticity to what you are passionate about, that's why i watch you guys, and i simply love it.
Is not scripted is not overly censored, it's raw and authentic.
Keep what you love ti do it, until you guys want to.
one of my favorite games if not my favorite gaming experience. I agree with Mike that this game probably came at the right time in my life to hear what it was trying to say to us.
I reached the Sun Station very late into the game, and the realisation hit me then when I read the message in the main room. the music that plays during that moment is just incredible as it just sinks into you
Not entirely through yet but past the part that I'd assume you'd mention it. After the campfire music at the end of the universe you can talk to the travelers before you jump into the orb to end the game. They have some interesting things to say that you might enjoy discussing.
Looking forward to the DLC discussion
This could be long.
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Solanum was the Nomai who as a child speculated that the Eye might be malevolent and have actively tricked the Nomai, then as a youth wrote that she thought it was probably indifferent. By the time you meet her on the verge of adulthood (it's not clear whether the visit to the Quantum Moon on coming of age follows attaining adulthood, or has been adopted as a ritual bestowing adulthood) she has adopted her clan's attitude of curiosity and hopes to one day discover what will happen if a conscious observer enters the Eye itself.
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Speaking of Solanum on the Quantum Moon, she was there when the Ghost Matter explosion wiped out the rest of her clan (and every other living being in the system not either underwater or in the interior of Dark Bramble). The versions/aspects of her on the Moon's in-system locations would also have been killed, leaving her skeleton, while the her in orbit around the Eye, safely out of range, survived, as a Schrodinger's Cat. Being mostly dead except around the Eye, where the laws of physics get a bit tenuous, it's not entirely clear how she experienced the quarter million years and change that passed. Time appears to flow normally for the Hatchling (player character) while you're there, so clearly something Timey-Wimey is going on.
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It quickly diverges, but the music that plays once you emerge from the Ash Twin Core with the advanced warp core starts out with the same chords as the music indicating the end of the cycle, which always gives me that moment of instinctive "oh s##t, time's up!" before I realise.
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A couple of cool things to try:
- hang out in the Ash Twin Core as a loop ends, and observe the machinery working. You can even interact, which can lead to some interesting consequences...
- before jumping into the Eye at the end, you can launch your Little Scout into it. If you don't recall it, something happens in the ending.
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My interpretation of the ending is that you/the Hatchling are the only person present, with the others being reflections/projections of the real people through your connections with them, much the same way as the Observatory isn't real, and the forest isn't literal - it's all the Hatchling's observation reducing the unfathomable alienness of the Eye to something that can be perceived and (to a degree) understood. The assembling of your fellow-travelers and the music is a tangible representation of what's most important, most _real_, most _true_ about the old universe, about the Hatchling's life.
The old universe ends, but a conscious observer made it to the Eye, and, in the raw potential; the unformed quantum madness; the singularity that could be anything, but isn't any one thing until observed, the final duty of the old universe is performed as the conscious observer Observes, and in doing so collapses all the sterile potential into a single, fertile actuality. A new universe that, in due course, spawns life and campfires of its own.
My take is that the Eye itself is not conscious - there is no four-dimensional alien trying to communicate - which is why a conscious observer is needed in order to kick off the new universe. The Hatchling's story ends here, when they Observe, but their story is just a prologue to the stories of the new universe, just as the Hearthians' story is a sequel to the Nomai. And, as shown by the variations in the final scene, the details of the new universe depend on the details of the observer - if you never connected with Solanum, never had that personal link to the Nomai, the new universe is a different one than if you did.
There's more to say about the ending and the game's metaphysics, but some of it will touch on things in the DLC, so I'll save it for later.
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The optimistic mood of the ending (and the game as a whole) comes largely from the attitudes of the characters - even Chert says positive things: "The stars were beautiful, weren’t they? Even if our star is what ultimately killed us. I’ll wait here and remember them while you gather everybody." or "Even if it’s over now, I had a good time learning. But I think the rules are about to change."
The message of the game is very much that everything and everyone dies, but they can pass on what really matters to the future - every generation gives way to the next, but the ending of one story brings the start of the next, and, just as what our ancestors were helped to shape us, what we are will help shape our descendants, and that is a form of true immortality.
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On a personal note, I was watching random UA-cam videos on the evening of the 31st of December last year, and, just about midnight, the one I happened to be watching at the time started up the Travelers theme - the song played at the final campfire - which seemed weirdly appropriate - an ending and beginning.
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Speaking of interpretations of the end and the new world to come, C S Lewis wrote his interpretation/understanding of the end into The Last Battle.
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When it comes to trying to understand 2001, I recommend reading the book - Clarke put down in words what Kubrick attempted to convey visually.
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I don't know if you've played Horizon: Zero Dawn, but it has some thematic connections. I won't say any more so as not to spoil the game, but if you've played through, you should know what I'm talking about.
So many thoughts after watching this!
This is my favourite game of all time too. It instantly dethroned all those 90's and early 2000 classics that have occupied that space for so many years now.
There is no piece of medium like this game in my opinion. It's a breathtakingly beautiful experience. It honestly feels like it was made specifically for me.
The day after I finished Outer Wilds, I felt like I had 20 years of built up nostalgia for it. It felt like I grew up with this game, even if I had just finished it.
Solanum was on the quantum moon when the ghost matter blanketed the system. She died on the other 5 locations of the quantum moon, but she didn't die on the 6th location. She is in essence Schrödinger's Solanum. She is dead, but on the 6th location, you observe her and collapse her waveform into a still living Solanum, because on the 6th location everything is in a super position, everything exists at once.
As a massive Tolkien fan, I didn't even think of the similarity of creating the world through music. That was a beautiful parallel!
My interpretation is that the eye allows us to influence the new universe. A sort of universe-evolution if you will. Inheriting aspects of the old one, through its last living species (you), who is the result of evolution in this old universe.
I love this game so much.
"Come, sit with me and watch the stars die"
(2) It is also interested, in my own reading of the ending scene, in gesturing at the problem of limits. Just as a fourth-dimensional being struggles to communicate with a three-dimensional being, so too does the three-dimensional being struggle to conceptualize and represent a being that obviously exists on a different level from it, the limit of knowledge so to speak.
And the game is intentional about this theme. All throughout the game we partake in the joys of exploration, of uncovering far-flung frontiers and going where no man has ever gone before, partially in hopes of saving the universe, and partially to push the frontiers of Hearthian knowledge. In that sense, then, death and the Eye can be understood as the final frontier, the culmination of that quest for discovery and knowledge.
As one goes beyond that final frontier of knowledge, one simultaneously has to accept whatever may be with peace and equanimity, knowing that our efforts will live on in the next generation i.e., the birth of a new world following the inevitable death of the old one.
55:30 Our character, the Hatchling, does not play an instrument. But the composer has said that the Hatchling's instrument, musically, is the Cello. In particular, the rendition you hear in two places:
1. When standing on Timber Hearth at sunrise.
2. At the end of the game, in the "14.3 Billion Years Later" scene.
This episode was beautiful.
It makes sense. I will never understand what you feel, but I get where you're going, and thats the exact beauty of it.
I too stood on the precipice, I too struggled with just being myself, but through you guys, through everyone, I know I'm not just this
The image that stuck with me is the eye, the player and the universe relate to each other like an egg, sperm and a human. The eye calls out, lures the player / nomai into a set of challenges to make sure they are fit for the purpose, and it takes the effort of all the nomai and the player to actually get the player into the eye. The player then ends and out of him, something far bigger is created. The player does not need to do anything for this, the information stored in his head is all the eye needs to get going.
And what comes out of the whole process might be different, but it inherit's lots of the player.
You guys are brilliant. Some people just can't handle criticism directed at the things they like.
that last challenge to get the advanced warp core to the vessel is kicking my ass lol
One way to make it easier if you've ever been to the Vessel is to go into the ship's log and turn on tracking for the Vessel, which will make its location appear on your HUD.
Remember that momentum is silent.
@@rmsgrey didnt know i could do that thanks!
@@AshenVictor its hard to get max momentum flying through the seed without hitting the edges for me
@@orcbrand You seem to have a similar momentum coming out of a bramble portal, no matter how fast you were going (nor at what angle) when you flew into it, so there's not a lot to gain by trying to fly faster on approach (and a risk of not cutting engines early enough...)
33:30 That's called "The Sublime".
I'm so glad you guys decided to play this game. Spec Ops was winning the vote and I was sad thinking you probably wouldn't cover it. I'm so happy that you got so much out of it because it's truly an incredible game.
I just wanted to say to Mike that a lot of what you said resonantes with me. Without going into detail, I do understand a lot of what your describing with regard to the feeling of isolation and not connecting. I feel like I connect in simple ways with many people but perhaps not in a true, deep sense. Also, there is a sense of fear in me as well that I believe stems from not accepting things as they are. I catch myself trying to escape, at least in my mind or thoughts. Anyway, I appreciate what you both are doing. I started with your podcast on Xenogears, which I also loved and has stuck with me over all these years. Don’t let the negativity slow you guys down or make you second guess yourselves.
You are the eye of the next universe that watches and makes it real or stay. Your instrument/song is the signal you send out to those in the next universe to find you. But that's just a theory
Mike, your the most human human I've ever seen
Profound
The ultimate language barrier is between two beings where one is bound by mass and time and the other is not.
Very pleased that you guys came off this game having as positive an experience as I suspected you might. I'm not gonna lie, in previous episodes whenever you guys entertain the idea that you're going to save the universe I couldn't help but get a wry smirk on my face and think "Man, this ending might hit them harder than they're expecting." I think the fact that Mike had such a hard time describing how it made him feel is emblematic of the profound effect this game had on many of us who have played and loved it. It shows how this game is sort of resistant to this style of detailed coverage since you are objectively revealing the magic of it to people who have potentially not played it, and that the best way for them to understand is to experience it themselves. Probably the thing that stood out the most to me is how he mentions there not being any direct acts of violence within the game's mechanics. Even past games you've covered where the violence is intrinsic to the plot like Xenogears or Silent Hill 2 or even Spec Ops, it still is somewhat distracting that traditionally game design almost DEMANDS that players be killing something even within a profound narrative.
It's a common refrain among fans of this game that it really is something you can only experience once, and if given the opportunity we would wipe our memory of it to experience it all over again. Like there are a bunch of esoteric trophies/achievements you can keep chasing and when I first finished the game I only had about 20+ percent of them complete. When I tried to go back to the game to track them down I just felt an intense sadness and quickly lose the will to keep playing. Don't get me wrong there are still some fun extra things you could find in the game by chasing achievements, but I think the brilliant thing about Outer Wilds' finale is that it lets you off the hook with its finality. Mentally, emotionally, spiritually, the game tells you with its ending that it's okay to let go of it, to move on and enjoy other things in your life. You often hear the cliche' among great pieces of media that it's about "the journey not the destination" and yet the journey of Outer Wilds compels and propels you towards its destination in a way that it can't help but stick with you when you get there.
Looking forward to the DLC discussion though I'm a bit sad that Mike had it spoiled that there even is someone to meet before even touching it. Hopefully you've started it by the time you read this but one thing I absolutely love about it is how it strips your character of their literacy. Your ship log will still update with things you find but you are pretty much done with reading once you hit Echoes of the Eye. Despite there being a tutorial section at the start of the base game I think most would agree that the most valuable mechanic in the entire base game is reading comprehension. If you refuse to read you can't really make progress and yet that capability is taken away from you for this added part of an already brilliant game. Thanks and keep up the great work.
Well put!
Hi Mike and Casen, I want to thank you for covering this beautiful, amazing game. I never heard of the Outer Wilds yet but after watching your podcast and watching various gameplay videos, I am going to attempt giving this game a try in the future. And Mike, I am also sorry to hear that even after all the FFXVI podcast episodes and the bonus episode where you clearly articulated yourself and why you felt about FFXVI the way you do, some people on Twitter STILL managed to misunderstand you.
FFXVI did a horrible job of explaining itself from its story to the lore with a very subpar lore mechanic that is ironically worse than FFXIII's datalog mechanic and if I can be honest, there are some fans of this game and other media who will find any reason to not give you the respect you give to them. Speaking as someone who is neurodivergent, communication is a two way street and if you clearly communicate with someone while they themselves refuse to get on the street you made, this is not going to be your fault. Breaks in communication are not automatically a malicious thing because there are multiple influences to keep in mind like language, neurodiversity, etc. but if someone is intentionally misreading your attempts at communication while making up crap about you and acting like that "Twitter is the only place where you can say I like waffles, oh so you hate pancakes?!" meme, it is something that person will need to work on.
It is astonishing to me many people I’ve met that consider this their favorite game of all time. There must be something truly special in playing it that I just didn’t see with my time with it.
Regarding Mikes experience with Twitter criticism, feelings of isolation, inability to connect, etc: I 100% see and hear you on ALL of this. I couldn’t get into this game but have still listened to every episode of this series because I appreciate y’all’s thoughtful, good faith perspectives even when I’m not seeing or experiencing the same things, or outright disagree.
When it comes to the criticism online, I could discuss this for hours… I’ve been a Final Fantasy fan for almost 30 years. It was a crucial element of escape from my own feeling of disconnection as a young person. However, I was readily able to admit my disappointments in and the short comings of FF16. I think some of that comes down to plain old maturity. But I’ve felt for a long time that much of the obsessive fandom I see online for brands feels like a bigger spiritual failing in our culture. Video games and stories can become a kind of coping mechanism for loneliness, which is fine in moderation. But some people don’t learn to separate it from the genuine and necessary real human connection they let it become a replacement for. People use brand fandom and attachment as a stand in for some hole we all carry inside us, which used to be more readily filled by organized religion (which I’m not personally wild about as a solution either.) It’s a hollow replacement for a sense of community, spirituality, or tribe… or something ineffable we all yearn for and are lacking. If you “attack” their brand you’ve attacked their god, some extension of themselves, or their ego. Online discourse is extremely context collapsed and holds no room for nuance or depth of perspective. I guess my point is I hope you can see that when people make such attacks online, when you know you’ve been operating from a place of mindfulness and good faith, it’s entirely about them. Not you.
(PS - Just got to the part at the end about the camp fire. I’ve been doing a podcast called Camp Video Games since the beginning of this year, which while quite a bit sillier in tone than what you guys do, this is exactly the vibe we designed it around. www.youtube.com/@campvideogames )
I didn't have the same revelation during the ending as you did, but I'm glad you found the connection that you were missing. Something about the way the game was mostly science-based and then very quickly switched to the sentimentality of "Playing a song by a campfire" as the final act didn't sit right with me, although I'm not wholly against combining science with faith. All of the other explorers are more than a little distant and seemingly apathetic throughout the game, so I didn't buy that we had made any sort of connection or that that's what they represented. They seemed more than willing to stay isolated, as none of them ask to hitch a ride or anything or change their plans based on anything you say, so interacting with them didn't feel much different from reading more hieroglyphs and thus them being in the ending to me was a bit of a surprise, like they're old associates of the universe who won't do anything to help it or each other but will show up for its funeral.
I somewhat understand what Mike felt. Being a content creator means that people's eyes and ears are focused on you. However, not everyone understands or connects with you, as everyone differs in their level of interpretation, knowledge, and experience.
Let's take church as an example. There are many versions of bibles and church teachings from a single source of information. When people sit and discuss it together, it might lead to arguments because they interpret it differently, which is very normal. When an argument occurs, everyone has a different way to react, a level of acceptance, and their limit. Some people might react calmly, shrug it off, and move on. Others might react impulsively and drag it for days or weeks.
I've had a similar experience, and this perspective has helped me a lot. It doesn't always apply, but it often eases me. 'What other people think and say about you is none of your business'; you can't control them.
LOL at 27:00 when Mike said "So I just put it back." XD
Homie looked at the universe so hard it created a whole new one 🤯
42:00 I like to think why Newton wrote his book in geometry. It is a 2D language that can be understood despite the notation by 2D and 3D thinkers ;)
There are so many parallels between Outer Wilds and Sky: Children of Light, though Sky might be the internal version of this journey, focused on a supposed cyclical nature of consciousness and life rather than on external reality and the physics of universe.
Sky is probably the game that had the hardest hitting ending for me of any game up until when I played it and so Outer Wilds ending lost a bit of its impact there for me as a result(though I thoroughly loved it as well).
I think the two games might be very complimentary to each other though.
On the topic of the difficulty of communication, and people not properly listening:
I wrote an essay on being personally disappointed in two games I had high expectations for. I went out of my way to explain that I was not criticizing the games themselves, merely explaining my personal disappointments, and extrapolating out why the issues became such a problem for me.
I had a several people that didn't engage with the core of the essay and instead acted like I was attacking their favorite games, or making objective statements. They were clearly not listening to what I was saying. Or stopping the video before I could fully explain myself. It was extremely frustrating.
A lot of people just don't want to have to deal with nuance. I am quite guilty of this myself in many areas.
Been enjoying this revisit to one of my favorite games (maybe my favorite? definitely in contention). The analysis here at the end really put into words some things the ending had made me feel, but that I didn't quite know how to articulate. I also empathize a lot with what Mike was saying with regards to communication. I've felt very similarly at most points in my life, and I think it's no coincidence this game resonates with that feeling. After all, the entire game is ultimately about communication - about language and the way our actions and our words can survive us to impact the future. I'm excited to see your take on the DLC, it's definitely a different take on the base game that I think adds new perspective on the base game's themes.
P.S. There's a bit of optional content you can unlock in the Ash Twin Project that I'd consider it a shame for you guys to miss. It provides some insight into the Hearthean that really elevated the game's themes for me. I don't want to spoil how to access it, but I'll include a small nudge below if interested:
Remember those experiments in the High Energy Lab on Ember Twin. They hold the key. The Ash Twin Project is the same thing on a much larger scale. So what would happen if you replicated the experiment there? What if you went a step further?
Heck yeah!
There it is... We all knew it would be one of your guys' top games by the end!
Mike, I don't know if you ever experienced with psychedelics and the community around those substances (festivals, retreats, etc.), but I really suggest you sail your DIY mind ship and go explore that world.
Personally it has changed my hole life in so that it opened my mind to experience things outside of my prison and made me experience feelings I have been trying to reach my hole life. I was able to integrate those experiences into my life and it changed me.
Never posted a comment on your channel, but I relate so much to what you said that I had to write those words to you, I just had to.
One love. ❤️
I feel like you would get a lot out of taking mushrooms , Mike. These concepts of all of us being connected, one and the same , part of the whole. It s a really positive experience when you go into with that frame of mind
One thing you guys may have not got around to since you were at the end is the different options you have with the warp core at the end.
such as pulling it out and letting the loop end
or jumping into it at the end of the loop. (go back to the core after doing this one)
Regarding the "inevitability" of the end of the universe in Outer Wilds, I'm not sure that is the best word for it, even though it is technically correct.
The reason is the connection between the universe cycling and the time cycling, which operate on the same principle. There, it isn't so much that the time loop reset is "inevitable" but that, in a sense, it has already happened. The distinction is between an inescapable attractor in the future, and the constituency of the present as being made possible by that which is already the case.
The structure of the loop is one of a promise. A promise that what already started the loop will come to fruition, in the sacrifice of whatever it is that starts the loop to the black hole (whether the small one of the warp core or the big one of the Eye).
However, one thing that I'm not sure the game gets right is the idea that that promise can be broken, as happens if one turns off the black hole after the probe or the player comes out the other side and before they can go in.
In the ultimate sense, there is no reality outside of the reality that is supposedly being broken there to mediate the breaking. As such, the promise is one of a choice that is inherent to the structure of reality.
If you've seen Interstellar, right before the docking scene, the main character says that what they're about to do isn't impossible, but necessary, in part because in order to have gotten to where they are, they must have already succeeded. Likewise, the completion of the loop is a free choice in the moment, but it is a choice that is paradoxically necessary, because it has already been made.
A slightly obtuse example might be how the notion of infinity relates to the number line. Typically, infinity is conceived of as "a really big number", where if one finds oneself at any given number, one can always find a bigger number. However, it isn't really that infinity is off at one end of the number line, because infinity always already defines the direction of the number line _at every number_. Infinity isn't something that one eventually gets to in some future time. It is already present at every number, or to extend the metaphor to Outer Wild's time, the future choice to reset the universe is already present at every instant because it is that which makes those instants possible.
I'll leave the connection between love as the already made choice to binding of oneself to the Good and the choice to sacrifice oneself to reset the universe as a choice that has already been made as an exercise to the reader.
I'm excited you are doing the DLC. I really enjoyed it, and am looking forward to your analysis of it.
Btw I know I've been pretty critical of you sometimes Mike, but I'm still here! :3 Try not to take it too personally, as in taking the sole blame for, when others don't completely understand what you're trying to say. Communication is a two-way street, and listening is an art in itself. Being able to observe, gather, listen, decipher, conceptualize and recite other people's words or ideas is beyond complicated. People have their own priorities as well when it comes to what they take away from a discussion
Mike totally was dosing while playing the game! :O
Yoooo just started the episode. I finished the game this past weekend and told my girlfriend I think this might be my favorite game of all time. She couldn't believe me lol
Having to put a creative work out to the world in any capacity is incredibly tumultuous. Not knowing how people will respond to something you put a bit of your soul into is scary. Fear of the unknown is completely valid, and when people rip into a work you make that also feels disheartening.
Some people want to hear endless praise for a game they enjoy so they will jump ship at the first sign of criticism. Others want to hear people rip into things they hate so they can dismantle it even more. But so few want to analyze the whole and understand what works and what doesn’t.
It’s totally fair to feel frustrated when people don’t take the time to understand what your saying, or when people disagree completely. Learning to be okay with what you create and enjoying it for you is difficult on so many levels. It is incredibly brave to be so open and vulnerable.
Also love the podcast
Mike, I thought you and Casin(sp?) did an excellent job with your analysis of FF16. Too many people only heard what you said, but did not listen. They were looking to satiate their need for confirmation bias by listening to you, and when they didn't get it, the cognitive dissonance kicked in. FF16 was a fun game, but it was also a flawed game. If people are unwilling to admit that and want to attack you for having an opinion, then they have probably have larger problems in their life and should probably take a break from the internet.
Keep doing this thing you're doing, I listen every week and enjoy the deeper level of analysis that so many of these beautiful works of art deserve.
Just started watching the intro and already shouting "one. of. us! one. of. us!" at my screen.
Man, listening to this on wireless headphones around the house. Hearing the ending music start fading in over you talking hits a little different on an episode about Outer Wilds.
Mike, people not understanding you on the internet is something you shouldn't take too personally because most people on the internet lack reading comprehension. you can say the sky is blue and they will swear you said the sky is anything but blue.
if you throw your scout it will be in the next universe... maybe the Eye of the universe is your scout orb
Amazing Episode. My feelings on the game are very similar.
🎉🎉🎉 hell yeah!