I'm thinking that, as you shortened the drive pipe, you should have compensated by elevating your water source in order to keep the head identical to that of the longer drive pipe(s). What your short 5ft system might have been lacking was the inertia that the larger volume of water created in the longer pipe, which would have necessitated a longer cycle time. Without doing any of the math here, and since it's been over 50 years since I took physics, my guess is that you should get better pressure readings by keeping the head pressure the same and angling the waste valve. I use an inverted foot valve because the brand I bought has a replaceable rubber o-ring that keeps the valve seat face from wearing out, and the shaft has a replaceable plastic bushing in the housing. When employing a shaft extension, the shaft runs straighter while not using the spring, and it also allows for the placement of washers, as weights, to change the cycle timing of the repurposed foot valve. So, that is a test I would like to see, using the identical head and adjusting the waste valve. You're doing a GREAT job Seth.
The 5' drive pipe might have only achieved 25psi but it did show that it worked. So now I wonder if turning the swing valve (waste valve) the other way, 180°, so it is leaning downhill instead of uphill would make a difference? If turning it sideways and angling it down helps when there is low head pressure in the drive pipe, might it help with a short drive pipe?
Excellent controlled test Seth! List potential would be decreased.. lower pressure is lower lift height. I found with my pump there is a fine tune point.. around 1 CPS seems to be best on mine. I think 53 was peak efficiency.
In the video, you showed that a shorter drive pipe flowed more water to the pump, the waste water valve cycled more quickly (not clear if this is bad or good) and that the pressure at the pump was reduced. There are two other important parameters for pump performance statistics (water delivered and lift height) and I'm wondering what the effect the drive pipe length had on them? With a shorter drive pipe was the lift potential increased or reduced - I don't know, but maybe reduced? The other parameter - volume of water delivered - because more water was used from the input bucket, I'm wondering if shorter drive pipes allow more water to be pumped as long as the lift can be reached or is the pump significantly less efficient (more water used per volume lifted)? How is water used and pressure at the pump related to water delivered? Thank you for the great videos - I'd better get my bucket setup for the ram pump I purchased from you.
Does the size or flow of your water source influence the size of the ram pump and or the chamber size? As in does a slow tiny creek need a smaller 1/2" pump setup and does chamber size effect it more or less on a half inch pump?
I'm sorry, I am not much into physical science and I know know know what a PSI is. I am just wondering how it would perform pumping uphill like you talked about. You showed the water pumping down hill, which is pretty basic. When I was a child I put a running water system in my Playhouse by putting a 50 gallon water drum up on a platform and running a hose down out of it like any siphoning setup. It seemed to me that this is what it looked like and that when you suck your finger in the little valve it brought the water down from above. I'm wondering how it works the opposite direction like I said I probably have completely misunderstood the video and I'm hoping you can explain it to me. I would also love to see it running water uphill.
I suppose just from this video alone it would seem as though it's just gravity feed down to the pump. This pump is capable of quite a good bit of lift. Here is a video showing a full install and operation ua-cam.com/video/l4S5_OjWReI/v-deo.html That should show you everything about the pumps capabilities. With only a few feet dropping into the pump it's able to lift to the top of a 50-foot tall Hill
Hey Seth I’ve got a question for you, what is the maximum psi that a 1/2” can put out? Also can you tell me an estimate of how much water is wasted for ever 1, 5 and 10 waste valve clicks?
Love your videos, but isnt a 1.5 foot elevation change a massive difference when your doing a 5-6 foot drop especially when there is a 1:7mechanical advantage in a ram pump. Isnt that like a 25-40% reduction in head pressure. Which is also about how much change we are actually seeing at the output.
I was wondering if the pump would still function if you added a pipe to redirect the "exhaust"? Either leave it to create a syphon or open it so you can have the flow let out somewhere other then on the pump.
I actually have a video on the Channel showing an extended waste valve pipe. It comes up from the waist valve with a t fitting so that no siphon is created. If a siphon forms it will stop the pump.
You mentioned in at the beginning of the video that "in theory" a shorter drive pipe would make the waste water valve cycle more quickly, which was the case. Would you mind explaining the theory? Thanks.
The pressure wave in the drive pipe travels very fast up the pipe and then back down. With a short drive pipe the wave is so fast that the valve does not have time to properly reset. The wave is also not able to properly gather the speed it needs when returning to the pump.
I forgot about this video. From this video - 20 ft of drive pipe to 5 feet of drive pipe. Longer the drive pipe the more pressure and less water used. I guess when the waste water is flowing the water is not being pumped up the delivery pipe. Your intuition was that with longer drive pipe and more pressure, the more water may be pumped. Seems unlikely that 20 ft of drive just happens to be optimal for volume of water delivered. Should anyone do a test with ta 40 foot delivery pipe, please post the results. .... perhaps if the shock wave energy is created by the weight of the water moving in the drive pipe - with a longer drive pipe, more weight would be stopped, resulting in more energy available to pump water as long as the pump cycles. May also depend on the back pressure. Anyway a theory. Head may also be a factor in drive pipe optimization. In the video the head was constant and in my situation with a berm, most of the head comes from the elevation of the berm. However, in cases without dams, a longer drive pipe would likely result in more head and maybe more water delivered. Thanks for the reply and pointing this video out.
Just out of curiosity would a standpipe on the wastewater valve help slow it down to keep the pressure? Also would a standpipe help with pvc valves? I was thinking about making a fountain/birdbath combo and trying to think of a way to cycle water without electricity or solar power due to the location it will be in. I am hoping there is a way to make a ram pump work.
Adding a standpipe to the waste valve reduces the head pressure into the system. It actually would stop this come from operating. Sally The Ram pump is not very effective in a closed system. Eventually all the water ends up at the lowest points with the ram pump
I have found that smaller pumps can have a longer Drive pipe. I've gone as long as 200 feet with the half inch pump. The larger the pump the shorter the drive pipe. I do have a video scheduled for testing long drive pipes.
@@Dads_Junk I have a video on that coming up as well. Very common question. A larger Drive pipe can run the pump. But it causes fast cycles and oftentimes stop the pump.
Isn't the drive pipe length supposed to have something to do with the amount of head? I have 12" of head maybe and I have a 10' drive pipe. I've read that 2-7 times your head is the ideal lengths to use. Not sure have not be able to test this myself.
Apparently the longer pipe allows for a stronger pressure wave. A fuller wave. When the short pipe has a pressure wave it does not allow the valve to fully close. If you grab the drive pipe you can actually feel the difference in power.
@@LandtoHouse Does the drive pipe nature change if for example you used hose for the drive pipe fastened to a wall in a Z or S pattern. This way you achieve maximum fall and head pressure while keeping the drive pipe as long as required in a compact space. Obviously you'll have some friction loss, but if this works, it'd have outstanding application. I'd try it, but its -40f where I am currently.
just wondering .... what would be the real world application of pumping from a 5 gal bucket for one minute ..... i mean ..... wouldnt the test be better served for the water supply to be unlimited as is the case in most scenarios with streams as water sources and wouldnt it be better to see what total accumulated pressure over unlimited time would be considering most ram pumps operate 24/7.... again ... just curious about the reasoning for such limited parameters for most of your tests ..... you have a system set up in your stream .... why not apply the theories in a real world application
Its true that most people will be pumping water for weeks at a time with the ram pump. These tests are just fun and do start to answer questions. I am in the middle of running a pipe closer to the garden where I like to test the pumps. I can hook up a hose to allow for the bucket to be full all the time for longer tests. ... the pump in the creek is a long way to walk for when I forget parts in the shop.
I personally think your tests are flawed. The reason is that in each shorter section of drive pipe, the angle of the waste valve is different. I would like to see this test done again but with 2 90* elbows so that your drive pipe goes straight to the ground and to have the drive pipe come off level with the second elbow. In theory this should give you the exact same head pressure for all tests.
BTW I have watched a lot of your videos and I think you are one of the best content creators on youtube in this field. Love the work and I always look forward to your videos.
That seems very reasonable! Let's call this test a starting point. I have a big list of tests to start in April and one of them is the effect of 90s on the drive pipe. Might be a good time to test your idea!
Good test, it is considerable that if you want to use the ram pump in a standing pond it would work
I'm thinking that, as you shortened the drive pipe, you should have compensated by elevating your water source in order to keep the head identical to that of the longer drive pipe(s). What your short 5ft system might have been lacking was the inertia that the larger volume of water created in the longer pipe, which would have necessitated a longer cycle time.
Without doing any of the math here, and since it's been over 50 years since I took physics, my guess is that you should get better pressure readings by keeping the head pressure the same and angling the waste valve. I use an inverted foot valve because the brand I bought has a replaceable rubber o-ring that keeps the valve seat face from wearing out, and the shaft has a replaceable plastic bushing in the housing. When employing a shaft extension, the shaft runs straighter while not using the spring, and it also allows for the placement of washers, as weights, to change the cycle timing of the repurposed foot valve.
So, that is a test I would like to see, using the identical head and adjusting the waste valve.
You're doing a GREAT job Seth.
The 5' drive pipe might have only achieved 25psi but it did show that it worked. So now I wonder if turning the swing valve (waste valve) the other way, 180°, so it is leaning downhill instead of uphill would make a difference? If turning it sideways and angling it down helps when there is low head pressure in the drive pipe, might it help with a short drive pipe?
Excellent controlled test Seth! List potential would be decreased.. lower pressure is lower lift height. I found with my pump there is a fine tune point.. around 1 CPS seems to be best on mine. I think 53 was peak efficiency.
Yes! In other pumps the waste valve weight can be adjusted to make the cycle 1 per second. I have also found that to be the best time.
In the video, you showed that a shorter drive pipe flowed more water to the pump, the waste water valve cycled more quickly (not clear if this is bad or good) and that the pressure at the pump was reduced. There are two other important parameters for pump performance statistics (water delivered and lift height) and I'm wondering what the effect the drive pipe length had on them? With a shorter drive pipe was the lift potential increased or reduced - I don't know, but maybe reduced? The other parameter - volume of water delivered - because more water was used from the input bucket, I'm wondering if shorter drive pipes allow more water to be pumped as long as the lift can be reached or is the pump significantly less efficient (more water used per volume lifted)? How is water used and pressure at the pump related to water delivered? Thank you for the great videos - I'd better get my bucket setup for the ram pump I purchased from you.
Does the size or flow of your water source influence the size of the ram pump and or the chamber size? As in does a slow tiny creek need a smaller 1/2" pump setup and does chamber size effect it more or less on a half inch pump?
I'm sorry, I am not much into physical science and I know know know what a PSI is. I am just wondering how it would perform pumping uphill like you talked about. You showed the water pumping down hill, which is pretty basic. When I was a child I put a running water system in my Playhouse by putting a 50 gallon water drum up on a platform and running a hose down out of it like any siphoning setup. It seemed to me that this is what it looked like and that when you suck your finger in the little valve it brought the water down from above. I'm wondering how it works the opposite direction like I said I probably have completely misunderstood the video and I'm hoping you can explain it to me. I would also love to see it running water uphill.
I suppose just from this video alone it would seem as though it's just gravity feed down to the pump. This pump is capable of quite a good bit of lift. Here is a video showing a full install and operation
ua-cam.com/video/l4S5_OjWReI/v-deo.html
That should show you everything about the pumps capabilities. With only a few feet dropping into the pump it's able to lift to the top of a 50-foot tall Hill
Hey Seth I’ve got a question for you, what is the maximum psi that a 1/2” can put out? Also can you tell me an estimate of how much water is wasted for ever 1, 5 and 10 waste valve clicks?
Love your videos, but isnt a 1.5 foot elevation change a massive difference when your doing a 5-6 foot drop especially when there is a 1:7mechanical advantage in a ram pump. Isnt that like a 25-40% reduction in head pressure. Which is also about how much change we are actually seeing at the output.
with the 5ft drive pipe, what will happen if you connect a stand pipe, what will happen????
I was wondering if the pump would still function if you added a pipe to redirect the "exhaust"? Either leave it to create a syphon or open it so you can have the flow let out somewhere other then on the pump.
I actually have a video on the Channel showing an extended waste valve pipe. It comes up from the waist valve with a t fitting so that no siphon is created. If a siphon forms it will stop the pump.
when u mention the ram pump size, what part of pump are we considering?
Not the vertical part the pipe on the ground is what is being talked about the size of the inlet and exit and I believe waste gate size
You mentioned in at the beginning of the video that "in theory" a shorter drive pipe would make the waste water valve cycle more quickly, which was the case. Would you mind explaining the theory? Thanks.
The pressure wave in the drive pipe travels very fast up the pipe and then back down. With a short drive pipe the wave is so fast that the valve does not have time to properly reset. The wave is also not able to properly gather the speed it needs when returning to the pump.
I forgot about this video. From this video - 20 ft of drive pipe to 5 feet of drive pipe. Longer the drive pipe the more pressure and less water used. I guess when the waste water is flowing the water is not being pumped up the delivery pipe. Your intuition was that with longer drive pipe and more pressure, the more water may be pumped. Seems unlikely that 20 ft of drive just happens to be optimal for volume of water delivered. Should anyone do a test with ta 40 foot delivery pipe, please post the results. .... perhaps if the shock wave energy is created by the weight of the water moving in the drive pipe - with a longer drive pipe, more weight would be stopped, resulting in more energy available to pump water as long as the pump cycles. May also depend on the back pressure. Anyway a theory.
Head may also be a factor in drive pipe optimization. In the video the head was constant and in my situation with a berm, most of the head comes from the elevation of the berm. However, in cases without dams, a longer drive pipe would likely result in more head and maybe more water delivered.
Thanks for the reply and pointing this video out.
Get crazy and attach it directly to the bucket! If there's not enough drop maybe use a 55gallon drum
I do want to try that. I would need enough hydrostatic pressure to get it going.
Thanks for the information.
Just out of curiosity would a standpipe on the wastewater valve help slow it down to keep the pressure? Also would a standpipe help with pvc valves? I was thinking about making a fountain/birdbath combo and trying to think of a way to cycle water without electricity or solar power due to the location it will be in. I am hoping there is a way to make a ram pump work.
Adding a standpipe to the waste valve reduces the head pressure into the system. It actually would stop this come from operating. Sally The Ram pump is not very effective in a closed system. Eventually all the water ends up at the lowest points with the ram pump
Can you have a drive pipe too long ? ? ? You recommended 25-100'
What about day 200' drive pipe ?
I have found that smaller pumps can have a longer Drive pipe. I've gone as long as 200 feet with the half inch pump. The larger the pump the shorter the drive pipe. I do have a video scheduled for testing long drive pipes.
Awesome ,
What about unmatched drive pipes ?
Such as a 2" drive pipe on a 1/2" pump
@@Dads_Junk I have a video on that coming up as well. Very common question. A larger Drive pipe can run the pump. But it causes fast cycles and oftentimes stop the pump.
@@LandtoHouse awesome I will be watching it !
Isn't the drive pipe length supposed to have something to do with the amount of head? I have 12" of head maybe and I have a 10' drive pipe. I've read that 2-7 times your head is the ideal lengths to use. Not sure have not be able to test this myself.
How to made it
At 5 feet the click of the valve sounds stronger than at 20 feet, isnt it?
It's much faster at 5 feet but not as strong. The psi test really shows the difference in having a longer drive pipe.
@@LandtoHouse Yeah, and that is weard
Apparently the longer pipe allows for a stronger pressure wave. A fuller wave. When the short pipe has a pressure wave it does not allow the valve to fully close. If you grab the drive pipe you can actually feel the difference in power.
How about you add a one way valve to close it?
Useful vid!
Thank you. I have a bunch more planned.
@@LandtoHouse Does the drive pipe nature change if for example you used hose for the drive pipe fastened to a wall in a Z or S pattern. This way you achieve maximum fall and head pressure while keeping the drive pipe as long as required in a compact space. Obviously you'll have some friction loss, but if this works, it'd have outstanding application. I'd try it, but its -40f where I am currently.
just wondering .... what would be the real world application of pumping from a 5 gal bucket for one minute ..... i mean ..... wouldnt the test be better served for the water supply to be unlimited as is the case in most scenarios with streams as water sources and wouldnt it be better to see what total accumulated pressure over unlimited time would be considering most ram pumps operate 24/7.... again ... just curious about the reasoning for such limited parameters for most of your tests ..... you have a system set up in your stream .... why not apply the theories in a real world application
Its true that most people will be pumping water for weeks at a time with the ram pump. These tests are just fun and do start to answer questions. I am in the middle of running a pipe closer to the garden where I like to test the pumps. I can hook up a hose to allow for the bucket to be full all the time for longer tests. ... the pump in the creek is a long way to walk for when I forget parts in the shop.
So how wold be for a vertical draft ... well it be a drop pipe ... 😂🤣😂
I personally think your tests are flawed. The reason is that in each shorter section of drive pipe, the angle of the waste valve is different. I would like to see this test done again but with 2 90* elbows so that your drive pipe goes straight to the ground and to have the drive pipe come off level with the second elbow. In theory this should give you the exact same head pressure for all tests.
BTW I have watched a lot of your videos and I think you are one of the best content creators on youtube in this field. Love the work and I always look forward to your videos.
That seems very reasonable! Let's call this test a starting point. I have a big list of tests to start in April and one of them is the effect of 90s on the drive pipe. Might be a good time to test your idea!
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LOL
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