Do You Need FRFR For Your Modeler? [Here's why I stopped using FRFR]
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- Опубліковано 4 жов 2022
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I often see the conventional wisdom that FRFR is the way to go....I actually have turned back to other methods - here's why I think FRFR is an option, but not the ONLY option.
/ johnnathancordy you can get my backing tracks and lesson tabs here.
www.buymeacoffee.com/johnnath... - if you like what I do and
only if you wanted, you could buy me a coffee!
Get my PADs bundle here: www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr... (this folder will grow, and I'd encourage you to ask for different keys/songs and stuff that might suit this type of preset?)
I've decided to make it possible to grab both my Helix/HX Stomp bundles (the expression bundle with freeze presets has always been separate) together for £5 - www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr... - I will then email you a link to both bundles!
Try my general patches for Helix or HX Stomp in this bundle for £3 using this link - I will then send out the patches! www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr...
You can get my EXPRESSION patches in this bundle using this link - I will then send out the patches! www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr...
Try my patches for Pod GO for £3 using this link - I will then send out the patches! www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr...
/ johnnathancordy get my backing tracks here
www.buymeacoffee.com/johnnath... - if you like what I do and
only if you wanted, you could buy me a coffee!
LOVE these clips from your gigs !
John, thanks so much for this video. Judging by the number of comments, this seems like something a lot of people are interested in. I hope you can explore this subject some more in future videos as there is not a lot of info out there other than product demos. I have been looking for a portable solution to listen to my HX Stomp and Quad Cortex. Currently is use a pair of Focal studio monitors - which sound great AND produce a great stereo sound - but I don't want to move them off my desk. Your suggestion to "try what you have" first is an excellent one, especially if you are on a budget. The FRFR rabbit hole looks like it could be like a particularly large and expensive one. All of this to say, I am going to try a Henriksen Bud. If I really like it, I might get a second one - as opposed to a speaker extension cab - to go for stereo. Quad Cortex Out Left to one and QC Out Right to the other. Someone should make a solid state amp with a stereo power set up and a line out to a speaker cab. That way you could set up the amps for optimal stereo effect. This would be opposed to something like a Line6 PowerCab 212 or a Mission Gemini 2 - both of which are stereo cabs with fixed speakers. Thank you, John, your content is really, really great!
Anxiously awaiting the video on this new tele. Looks really cool.
Here's a semi blasphemous statement: Sometimes I just use my HX Stomp as a pedal platform into a small tube amp when gigging in London (can't bring a large amp on the tube after all) OR sometimes if I'm using amps and cabs in my HX Stomp I use the cleanest, flattest little tube amp I have and make sure no gain is really coming from the amp. Depends on the gig. Believe me, nobody knows or is going to turn you in to the modeling police. Whatever works. Stop spending money. It won't make you better.
This sounds interesting to me. So how do you use it as a pedal platform with a tube amp? Do you use the stomp as a head?
@@kalli199 I just use it like a pedal board. Compressor, drives, modulation, delay, reverb...etc.
It actually makes sense. 🙂
Why bother with a tube amp, wouldn’t solid state be lighter for lugging around?
@@TheRflynn Sure, if you have one handy.
Great video again, thanks for sharing your experiences and knowledge on the subject man! For my small solo restaurant gigs I've been using a PodGo with a TC Electronics Plethora X5 inserted in the stereo effects loop of the pod... and going straight in to a small HK Audio PA... and I also put my home made backing tracks through the PA via it's bluetooth channel with a little ipad. It's a neat little set up, all effects in stereo too which I really enjoy... but lately I've been missing a bit of 'unfff' for my guitar sound so have started taking a small Fender Bassbreaker amp (another extra thing to carry which sort of defeats the point of using an amp emulator) ...anyway... I go from the AmpOut on the PofGo to the return on the back of the Fender Amp... it sort of works, but one problem I find is that the signal from the Podgo's AmpOut is really really f****** loud... so I either have to insert a pad gain reduction pedal or just go in to the front of the Fender amp to be able to reduce the volume on the amp! Another problem is that all the stereo effect patches I have carefully created on the PodGo are lost...'coz the AmpOut signal taps out just before the Cab/IR block... so I don't get any of the podgo's effects on the Fender Amp... if i want the AmpOut signal to carry the effects, all the effect blocks have to be in front of the Cab/IR block which means I loose the stereo! So... basically it looks like the PodGo's design sort of pushes you to have to buy an FRFR cab! I'm thinking of getting the inexpensive Harley Benton FRFR 212 Stereo cab and seeing how I get on with this... before splashing out on the Line 6 212 Powercab! Have you by any chance tried out the PodGo or the Helix with the Harley Benton 212 FRFR!? Thanks again, really enjoying all your videos!
Dude...that intro was beautiful!! Great phrasing. Really wish I could play like that.
You're such a fantastic guitarist! I could watch, and hear you for hours.
Liked your live performance a lot ! FRFR: I agree with you. I ended up with the BluGuitar Amp 1 and its NanoCab. It's a suitable solution for traveling light and still loud (60W - up to 100 with my other cab loaded with an Alnico Cream) and 4 voices: Fendery clean, Voxy crunch, JCM 800 (very realistic) and Mesa Boogish modern tones. Plus on board reverb and boost: you just bring along a minimal pedalboard and off you go ! Cheers John.
The amp 1 and some form of ported cab is a good option. Small, light and powerful
Really insightful, thanks for sharing your monitoring experiences!
When I first tried the FRFR route, I bought an Atomic CLR which I just never got along with and didn’t sit well in my band with another guitar player using a real amp and 4x12 cab. I ended up going back to an amp and cab myself and was much happier with the sound but eventually got tired of hauling them to shows.
Recently I decided to go with a Fractal FM9 into a Seymour Duncan Powerstage 200 and into a smaller Mesa 2x12 cab. I couldn’t be happier! The tone and feel are still there but even cleaner and I also eliminated hauling my 100 watt head and 4x12 around. My other guitar player liked what I had so much that he ended up going a very similar direction and we both have been loving our sound and the convenience it’s brought.
Thanks for the video!!
Currently looking into this!
First off, thank you John for doing this video! Your content is always inspiring, and honest. I've not used FRFR yet... but I have some options... I have lots of little practice amps and the pod go. I also have a Focusrite SOLO interface and Bias FX2 coming out of Presonus Studio monitors. Since I just play at home, presently I've been playing around with going Guitar>Pod Go>Positive Grid Spark>effects loop of my orange 35RT. I'm on UA-cam all the time and I'm always hearing this is best, or that is best...but honestly, it's a large experiment for me, and that is the fun of it. Nobody should be able to tell you or me or anybody what is best, I think. IMO use what you've got. Stop buying equipment to buy equipment, or just because some UA-camr tells you to do it. Get what you need and use what you've got. Learning to use what you've got takes time, and I'll bet there are already good tones to be had with the gear you already have! You just have to dial in your sound a little from what bits and pieces of what you have cobbled together over the years. TRY things. It's not going to hurt to swap it around, and just SEE what it sounds like. Don't just take everyone's word that "this is the best"... Also, don't forget that with things like an interface and Bias FX 2 / and free amp sims, you can get pretty far without having to shell out a ton of money for actual hardware. If you have a decent PC, you can get a pretty nice home rig! Try stuff. Remember, people like Eddie Van Halen and the Edge from U2 just basically experiment until they come up with something good! Play guitar and have fun experimenting with different things!
I totally agree try things especially things you wouldn't normally expect back in 2001 I was without much money but I had a cheap guitar and a couple of old 70's or 80's home stereo pioneer amplifiers with quarter-inch microphone and headphone Jack I decided from the lack of equipment and strong will to play guitar I ran one of the stereos distorted into the other and had a very decent sound that I could play with it just worked.
Thanks John. I'm really enjoying using my Pod Go with Cab / IRs on into the Power Amp In of my Katana 100 MK ii. The reason this works is that I have fitted a Celestion FRLR (Full Range Live Response) Triple Cone 150w speaker (purposefully designed for guitar modellers) to the Kat. The perfect combination for me.
I’ve had great success with a Friedman ASM12. It’s made of birch with a Celestion in it, so it thumps like a real cab. If I have an opportunity, I sometimes use a Powerstage 170 and a Marshall 1960B with V30s.
Good video. I use one of 2 FRFRs, one being a powercab 112 and the other is a Headrush FRFR112. A few weeks ago I did an A/B test and found that the Headrush had more amp-like qualities (at least for what I want to hear) than the PC. These are just for my monitoring on stage although I tend to put them behind me as I would an amp. My sound comes from the mains in stereo. I could just bring one of my 2 tube amps and run into the return but I also carry and run sound and lights so there's no room for an amp. The FRFR sits upright seat belted in my passenger seat in my car. Again, I just use it to hear myself and not for the amp in the room sound. If I ever quit doing sound I'll probably go back to an amp. I used to have a Headrush pedalboard and it sounded excellent through the amp.
I just ordered a Headrush mx5 and am considering selling my jazz chorus 40 amp for the headrush 108, maybe two of them in stereo. I have a full pedal board as well, and I realized I don't use the JC-40 for any of the tone or color.
I had a headrush FRFR for a bit that I used with Strymon Iridium- I did not find it to give me what I was looking for and sold it. I am much happier honestly with the sound of going into the FX return of my marshall. Sometimes I even like to put my amps preamp in to 4 cable with the HX stomp and essentially create my own clean channel by turning that FX loop on or off. Works particularly well with more old school amps that do not have a squeaky clean channel or have a shared gain ( Like my Marshall Juibilee).
I agree John. My first purchase after the Quad Cortex was the Atomic wedge FRFR. I thought it sounded ok until one day I plugged into just a powered PA top. I realized the atomic wedge was very nasally sounding to my ears and I sold it immediately. I now just use a Yamaha 10” powered pa top for live use and it sounds fine for on stage sound to me.
In my experience, and I’ve been doing this for 30+ years, it all comes down to how you’re monitoring yourself. If I’m playing live in a small venue with limited monitoring I always use an amp with pedals. If using in-ears live I use a modeler and no cabinet. If studio I use whatever sounds proper for the recording but these days I can dial up a Kemper or Fractal or NI Guitar Rig faster than miking an amp. Most modern productions aren’t begging for real amps and would rather move quickly with maximum versatility. TLDR: if you’re playing live without monitoring use an amp, otherwise take advantage of digital gear.
Why don’t you use modeling live? Is it because of the monitoring situation? That’s my issue right now. I like how it sounds FOH but can’t comfortable with monitoring situation. I like IEM’s but if the the rest of the band is not using IEM’s they want something on stage to hear the guitar.
This.
I tried so many different rigs, amps, pedals and I’ve finished up with my Marshall DSL with a FM3 in 4CM. Nothing gives me that “amp” feel, which is hard to explain, but those who know, will know what I mean. There’s nothing else that gives me the choices of effects and amps like the FM3.
I’m so pleased with the set up.
I use the Quad Cortex with a Headrush 108 . At the start i hated the Sound but now it works perfectly for me. The Gamechanger for me is using the Eq (High and Low Pass ) and a little Monitorstand to keep the Speaker a few centimeter away from the ground. I am really happy with the result.
I use since one month an everse8 as Personnal monitor for my Kemper /Helix config and I think I will buy another one because of its Quality and versatility ! And I will be able to use them in a stereo context or as FOH in small gigs. With my Bose L1 model 2 they are really complementary… and for instance when I use playbacks I like to send drums in this everse8 some meters away from me to wider the sound landscape of my playbacks… well I like this versatility… and I can use too my Fender HotRod with Celestion Alnico cream in the monitor out of the Kemper (without cab sim) when I want to feel something really more “organic” musically Philippe
I like the darker tones as well. I also prefer my QC into a boogie tube amp and I leave my cab sim on as well. Sounds and feels how I like.
This is a good topic. I came from using the TC G System in 4cm thru my Dr Z MAZ18 combo and I just recently picked up a HeadRush Pedalboard on a great deal. I am running it thru my Orange SuperCrush100 combo (in the return) and I find it works great. (Note: I do not use the cab sims or IR's...I use the Amp sims and effects only). As with anything, working EQ's on the modeler to get the best active "feel" was still necessary but I am impressed with the outcome. Best thing about this setup is I can pickup another SuperCrush100 combo and run in stereo with 2x12s.....haven't done it yet, but that is something I am thinking about.... if you haven't tried the SuperCrush100, you should give it a shot. It has the exact same Class AB power section that is used in the Pedal Baby 100. Only main difference is it does not have the 3 band EQ. You can run the modelers right into the front end of the SuperCrush100 (if you need to utilize the EQ in the preamp section), however, I have found that is pointless and does not translate well, just better to go thru the FX return.....oh and it has a 150w Celestion G12H speaker....so can handle the pushing the volume with no problems. Please know this is my personal opinion and I am not endorsed or anything cool like that.....However, if Orange would like to send me another SuperCrush100 combo (in black) that would be much appreciated.
I am now using the Boss GT-1000. Usually the stage monitor do the job. But! I like to use a Fender Vintage sidekick keyboard 70w amp for the back line as well. It has 2 inputs with volume control, bass, mid and treble eq. It has a 10 inch speaker in a closed, ported cabinet with very good bass response with no tweeter! Small, light weight and cheap!! The reason I really like it, is I put it on an amp stand and you can easily tweek the eq and volume, they are right there on the front. No pesky tweeter yet still has pretty flat eq. Not so loud but the whole idea is to keep the stage volume down right? So it's great when you want to move to the back of the stage away from the sweet spot of the floor monitors and still hear yourself play.
I've started running my Pod Go into my old Marshall Code, turning off all effects and amp emulators in the code, so it's just a powered speaker cabinet that was built to emulate a wide variety of speaker cabinets (and also super cheap)
Hi John, what do you think about the power amp in of Katana Mark II 50 used like a monitor for Helix? The problem about the monitors is if you have stereo effects in the preset you will hear them in mono. Thanks. (You are a great guitar player, everything you play...)
I liked the 4CM but now I’m using a headrush 8 frfr…but I’ve never used it live…works great for the bedroom…live I’m using my old peavey 5150 60w combo…rock on bro!!!!
I've gotten amazing tones running my Nux MG-30 into the power amp in on my Katana 50. I upgraded the speaker to a Celestion Neo Creamback. I turn the IRs off. The speaker is very versatile with different amp models. Still a cheap solution when I want an amp. At church I go straight to PA.
I need to try this with my pod go and katana again. Thanks for reminding me :D.
The FX return on any modeling amp with a good speaker should work fine. If you've got reference monitors you could EQ your amp to sound pretty close to your reference monitors. I'm going to change my home setup to A/B between reference monitors and tube amp. I agree the FRFR thing is too expensive. Tweak what you have first.
Hey thanks for the video. I'm trying to decide what direction to go within this realm. I am looking to use amp in a box type modelers with on board cap emulations and just enjoy playing it at home. I wont be gigging or anything. Would a good pair of studio monitor speakers give me an experience on par with playing into a traditional amplifier? Or would a FRFR cab be more appropriate?
Was running my Fractal FM3 into a Friedman ASM12 for a long time, and I loved it, but it was heavy (52 lbs), and a bit awkward to carry the rare times I did jam with other people. Most importantly, even at really low volume settings, my family still complained that it was just too loud. I now run my FM3 into a pair of Kali LP6 v2 studio monitors and am enjoying a comparable experience even at lower volumes.
I had the Powercab and found it dull and drab sounding. I bought the Laney LFR-112 and IMO it's much better. However I still find that hearing an FRFR from behind you is still a "weird" sensation to the ears. When I hear my Helix presets come through my wedge monitor they sound awesome to me, but from behind my brain still wants the classic sound of an amp, not the sound of an amp being miked and run through a full range system.
So I run one of the aux sends out of the Helix pre-speaker cab with it's own separate EQ block and plug that into the effects return of my tube head. FOH gets my XLR out and that gets folded back into my wedge montior. So I get the best of both worlds - "real" amp from behind, miked amp sound from the wedge.
I’ve been using a Line 6 Catalyst 100w plugged into the return/power amp in. But I just recently made my own stereo rig. It started as a Trace Elliot 2x12 combo amp someone was throwing away. The amp had been ripped out and was in pieces, but the cab was good and was loaded with Celestion V30s. I cut a slot in the top of the cab to drop in an ART SL-2 single space power amp and wired the speakers in stereo. No more cab sims for me…except going direct to the mixer for FOH
Ah man…I edited my comment and I lost your ❤️ John!
I agree! Happy to use monitors at home but for gigging I use 2x harley benton cabs & a palmer stereo power amp 👍🏼👍🏼
I use the boss GX-100 4 cable method into my Orange half stack. Turn cab block off and sounds amazing.
Great video, John.
I have been running my Helix live using the Power Amp In on my Boss Katana 100 Mk2 head into an Egnater 212 Tourmaster cab. The Power Amp In has a high pass filter adjustment which is set to flat and that works well.
I’ve tried using it with cab simulation on, but the results are spotty depending on the particular cab sim being used. I almost always turn them off and tweak from there.
There is no question that cab sims really enhance the sound when playing through my studio set up. I am constantly trying to compensate for that tone when playing live and the cab sims are turned off.
That being said, it has taken a lot of experimenting to get the sound I am looking for. The end result has been pretty satisfying.
Any thoughts or ideas about this would be really helpful and greatly appreciated.
Great info. Just purchased a Quad Cortex. I have a Blackstar HT 5r, I’ll definitely try it wit the QC. Cheers
Great, great intro jam!! Love the change to the ascending chord pattern. And great live clip, nice playing! Did you engage a harmonizer (preset) near the end?
FRFR (in something like Powercab) is most useful if you need the flexibility of different speaker tones. But its really necessary if you need to include acoustic guitar tones in your guitar mix. No question that a modeler into the effect return of a tube amp into a good guitar speaker will sound better. But it won't be very flexible.
Agreed - though Jonathon makes good points regarding straight electric tones. For a number of years the project I was working with needed a variety of stringed sounds, for me the Helix and Variax were the solution. From electrics to acoustic 6 and 12 strings, dobro, banjo - I even pumped percussion and keys through the system. Simply wouldn't sound right through a frequency-limited cab.
Thank's for all your videos you are great ,your videos help me a lot 👍👋
Played tube amps for 35years, then switched over to Fractal due to back surgery. The thing is that tube amps sound good on stage, but for most gigs they have to be miked and you will have to rely on the sound guy to reproduce your sound to the audience. There is a big chance that it won't sound exactly as you like, due to the fact that the sound guy doesn't have your ears :) There is also a lot of room for f..ups (mic placement, eq) With a modeller you give the soundguy 1 or two signals (stereo or mono) with the advice to set everything flat on the mixing board. If you did agood job creating your sounds, it will sound good with no adjustments needed and more importantly, very consistent across other venues as well. A modeller will give the sound guy exactly what he is trying to achieve,...a miked up sound. You can play with inears or let the sound guy provide you with 2 monitors for a stereo sound on stage. Basicly you can go to the gig with 1 or 2 guitars and your modeller of choice, setup in. 5 minutes. Most of us bring expensive gear to gigs to impress other guitar players that maybe in the audience. Well....those guitars players in the audience have to shut up, because you have work and they don't :) The "normal" people in the audience sure has hell don't give a rat's ass what equipement you are using. You are there to entertain!
My thoughts on this:
The sound guy doesn’t have your ears, but I think he needs more trebles than you, because they disappear with the distance.
At 15/20m it is not the same mix and without trebles it becomes dull.
So I often use earplugs if my floor monitor has the same mix than the front speakers (I like to hear everything).
Yours is good advice. I tried two FRFRs with my Fractal FM3 -- the Atomic NEO MKII and Xitone 12" Active Wedge . I sold them both because, as you've experienced, they just don't work well live. I've since been using a Quilter Tone Block 202 into two 12" cabs with high watt NEO speakers. The Quilter has an FRFR voicing, which together with the NEO cabs, runs quite flat. I'm able to keep both amp and cab modelling turned ON while running the FM3 into the front of the Quilter. You can run into the Quilter's FX Loop return, but that disables all of the Quilter controls except its reverb and master volume. By running it into the front, the Quilter EQ and other controls remain active and gives easy access to adjustment. In addition, the Quilter is itself an amp so you can use it as a back up to the modeller should something happen to it during a gig. You can also use the Quilter's built-in IR voicings with your modeller's effects only, by creating a preset that do not have amp or cab blocks.
I also use the Quilter 202 with FRFR, it's fantastic. but I use the QC!
Hi, thanks for the interesting topic. If you go with the Laney LFR, will you choose 112 or 212 for live gig? Thank you!
Hi John, Great vid! I got the Headrush 108 and I hate it! It sounds way too mid range and treblely for me, but at the same time it's got way too much bass. I'm switching back to my regular amp which is an Egnaeter Tweaker 40w and a 2x12 with Celestion's 50 Rockets. No matter what I do, what cab on the Headrush, mic or where I place it in the block I can't get good tone with the 108. Quite possibly because it's only 1 8inch speaker. I wanted to downsize with the cab, which is why I got the 108 but it's not working out! Good suggestion n the Laney but I can't afford that right now, still paying for the Headrush!
I ended up getting a powercab to play together with the helix. I figure that the built in speaker emulations in the powercab would allow me to get the "in the room" feel of the different speaker types when used with a matching preamp setting. So far I've had good results. I agree that it isn't needed as I could run the helix thru a poweramp into a rectifier cab I own, and I did that and it sounded great to my ears. But isn't part of the reason of getting a modeler the ability to emulate different amp sounds? So wouldn't it make sense to pair your modeler with a cab like that line 6 powercab that can model the various speaker types?
I agree that that the best solution for most is the option that is the most affordable, but would it make sense that if money is no issue, to get a set up that can give you the most access to the various "in the room" emulations?
I’ve been using the powercab plus and bringing down the HF Trim in its settings to around -2.5 . I tried turning off the tweeter but I think this works better for me
I've used both of the Atomic cabs (not the CLR, but the older models.) Sound great. Also used the Laney IRT-X, which is not as loud, but more portable. I don't play live, just at home and at rehearsal spaces. I now run through a Blackstar HT-5R.
One of the great things about digital is IRs. FRFR was designed with IRs in mind and, from what I've read, using IRs into a guitar amp's power section connected to a guitar speaker is not advisable.
I’ve used boss katana as a speaker for ax8 and headrush. Just plug straight in the input and select acoustic amp model. Eq to taste. Works like a charm
You can actually use the power amp in input, where it bypasses the preamp
@john nathan cordy do you run a line from the FM9 to the effects loop of the Bud 10 and the main L and R outs of the FM9 to the FOH. Interested in the Bud 10 as it looks super versatile.
Laney LFR-112 FRFR got a tweeter but you can adjust to your liking - also you can switch if off completely.
I use a Headrush 108 with my Helix and find that Global EQ in Helix is an easy and great way of fine tuning my live sound. I found that cutting the top end to around 4.1K takes that top end sharpness/hiss away and makes it more " real " sounding. The bottom end is really down to the room or band sound so I'll cut that to suit.
Im using two Headrush 12’s & Helix for my Chapman Stick rig. They carry the bass side of the stick really well. Love them
I'm using a pair of HR108s. For the price, they are amazing. You do need to trim back the lows and highs but that's a piece of cake with any modeler.
@@JM-eq3sx yip, that’s where global eq in helix is very handy imo. 🤘😉
@@JM-eq3sx This is what I dont understand . You get two frfr and then end up trimming the frequencies to emulate a real guitar amp. So , why bother and use a guitar amp designed for the purpose. For the price of two , even cheap HR frfr's you could get a really good guitar amp . Yeah ok it is personal choice but I feel this frfr stuff is just a complete con some people are buying into.
@@druidhugger6311
Because a real guitar amp is just one amp.
I do have several real guitar amps of different sizes and types. I don't want to carry them all to a gig, as if I could.
As great as real amps are, I like the flexibility of a modeler for the gigs I do, which cover a wide range of musical styles.
There are some guitarists who have one sound (maybe 2 or 3) all night, and some of them can make it work. I want maximum versatility.
I want to feel a Marshall when I play Rocky Mountain Way, an AC30 when I play Tie Your Mother Down, a Fender Twin when I play Hotel California...
They aren't "perfect" replicas but they are ideal for what I want to do.
Like PA cabs, FRFR cabs are not perfectly flat. The HRs seem very bottom heavy, but they are ideal, again, for what I want.
Just blew the HR 2nd tweeter in 6 months. Not happy about that though. Might just disconnect it rather than replacing it again.
Hi John, thanks for the interesting video! I’m a bit confused, are you running amp and cab sim from your modeler into the front of the henriksen, then into the mess cab? would that be like running an amp into a cab (modeler) then into a real amp into a cab?
Nice insights on this. Thanks John. I have cabs and tend to share your phobia of high end spikey sounds. However, I have 2 Headrush 108s which I mount on tripods and create a live stereo field with. Great for time based effects, etc. This works well in more of a singer-song writer or otherwise, a gig without a full band. Mono is the better way in that scenario and probably makes it a better context for a true cab. Speaking of- does anyone have any thoughts on Cabzilla cabs?
I love my headrush
To start off... I really enjoy your playing. I have been gigging with a Fractal AX8, Exotic Volume, Digitech Whammy and Crybaby. All pedals in front of the AX8 input. The AX8 the goes into 2 Headrush 112's in stereo. I had mixed results live in the beginning, but after 12 or so gigs I have in nailed down to a rig that has become inspirational for my playing. I would really love to try the Laney LFR-212 but have been toying with the idea of going through a tube amp to see if I am missing something. There are so many options out there that I may just keep what I have got and just keep gigging.
I do the same with the speaker ir still engaged. I know people say not to do that but to MY ears...It sounds FANTASTIC. Im using a 44 Magnum and a 1x12 cab btw
Hey John, I like your videos though I'm a bass player. I came to your channel by checking out pedals and recently the HX Stomp. You provide a lot of interesting information! ThX for that! Also I like your playing. I could listen to your melodies all day :-)
But to the topic: I did research cause (like said before) I have a HX Stomp now, and want to make it sound in my room (or "the stage") just like it sounds on a recording that I play back maybe on the big stereo in the living room. Similar to "the audience" in a live scenario ;-)
At the end right now I managed to make my bass combo sound like the modeller sounds on the main out over a studio monitor or reference headphones. I just used the build in EQ to level it out nearly FRFR. Of course it is not, cause its freq response is limited in range and "flatness", but I found it matches with the sounds I produce.
If you make a 1:1 listening comparison it will be different, but....who cares if both sound nearly similar and most important: they sound goood!? ;-)
I use a Bose S1 Pro with the Iridium and all of my modelers on the past. Sounds awesome
I've used an old Peavey Bandit 65 to amplify modelers for many years when I wasn't going direct into a PA.
got my powercab+ used at a good deal. it doesn't shake your pants like a tube amp, but it's a lot more versatile (for my specific needs) and it sounds pretty good. it does seem like it gets lost in the mix easier, but how much of that is the frfr and how much is me? i think i will try to turn the tweeter off and see if it gives me anything more. overall, i'm not really looking to ditch it, and i sold my heavy tube amp with minimal remorse. i am currently going between lead guitar/guitar vocals duo/bass, so having one amp for everything is a big win. these are my opinions for my specific applications, ymmv
I have the pod go and practice with headphones. I would love to have a setup that sounds and feels closer to a cab in the room. Do you feel your studio monitors help you get closer to that sound/feel or do you only get that with the amp setup you described?
To answer the "why not just bring a real amp?" question, the modeler gives you a spectrum of choices. While they aren't the "real" Deluxe Reverb or Boogie Mark IV, the approximation a modeler creates gives you both in a single cabinet.
For an original band, I would go with the tube amp (or amps) suited to the music.
I'm looking at the Red Sound ELIS 8 and MF10. Nobody has done a side by side comparison yet, and they're way too expensive to experiment with both. A pair of the 8's looks very appealing.
But your video makes a lot of sense. I listen to some old recordings, many generations of gear in the past, and think, "Damn, I had a really good sound, should have just stuck with that." But it never seems quite enough in the moment and in the midst of a live performance.
The Henriksen did sound pretty dark in your video by the way. I thought it was where the camera was positioned. It worked well for what you were playing but it would be lost in my band.
For a cover band, a modeler is far more practical, and if the audience enjoys the music, the purist standing in the corner will have to concede that it does the job very well.
I'm in a tribute band and we cover the artist from Woodstock to the present. His guitars and amps, and therefore tone, have changed quite a bit over the years. I could do it with discrete pedals but the modeler makes it much easier and lets me think about the music.
Tube amps can be fickle too. I have a Boogie Nomad head in my basement. I may have to break it out and see how it works. Assuming you have a combo. What speaker(s) are in it?
You could still use a modeler for pedals and use a real amp, or use a digital preamp into a tube power amp.
Similar to what they did in the late 80s with things like the Mp1 or the Triaxis.
You mentioned Fletcher Munson SPL/Frequency curve. I’ve played in bands most of my life, now in my 60s. What have I learned early on: NEVER create tones at home levels, unless you crank to the exact levels you plan on playing Iive. This setup will be the way to go with FRFR (also true going non FRFR) . I certainly agree, if it’s possible to send a non cab sim to a stage amp and have the cab sim goto FOH, that’s probably the best way to go. Having said that, if you’re playing a stage where you really can’t hear your amp (like all the large bands) and relying on foldback or in-ear monitors, then it’s no different than FRFR. FRFR is best for this. If playing small stages and clubs and standing next to your amp, then the first solution works best.
This, yes, all day long
Great and helpful video. I haven't played live in ages, so haven't had a chance to use my Stomp in that context yet. I have a Headrush 108, and for home use so far, it's fine. My ideal setup would be Stomp thru a power amp and into a cabinet. I could do 4 cable method, but my valve amp weighs a ton, and my back is not happy about it, hehe. A portable and easy to set up rig is my ideal, and I'd be okay not having the "air-pushing amp" feel, as long as the audience hears good tones and I can hear myself.
Hi...seen some the guys run two Headrush 108s like a PA...got the stereo.......and sounds good to me. Light weight . Wouild that work for you?
@@yourhomeonmaui I've considered that. Heard you can get some sweet stereo sound that way.
I use the Roland Cube XL which was made around 2010 built like a tank, and LOUD! It easily holds it own - I could play anywhere with this amp. Even if the other guitarist had a Marshall Stack, the 80 Cube 80XL would still cut through. It is voiced more like an FRFR unlike its successor the GX which was darker sounding. I use it with my GR 55 and GP 10 .
I use a Boss Cube Street 2 as my home practice monitor. It’s not supposed to be a voiced speaker like a guitar cab but it’s also far from being truly FRFR. Gets the job done for basically any situation tho. I can run it as my own personal wedge monitor when also going direct, or it can be my amp when playing smaller pubs that need stage volume, or even apart from my modeler it makes a great jam amp on its own.
For several years I used Marshall JMDs für my gigs which are really handy and come astoundingly close to the sounds of my JVMs. Since I use my helix and pod go I get good results either with going into the effect return of one of my amps as well as with using some Behringer PA Speakers - Eurolive B212D - and the models in the helix are definitely a step up from the models of the JMD preamp. I actually prefer the helix into the 100W valve poweramp of my Marshalls ... :)
I have a B210D. Sounds a bit boomey, but it's nothing a bit of EQ can't fix. Definitely a lot cheaper than an FRFR.
I run my Quad Cortex into the PA and monitor through a Headrush 8 inch monitor for vocals and QC. I use my modlers to reduce the amount of stuff I take to gigs, hauling my Shiva and 4x12 or a 2x12 does not hold the alure it used to. I will use a full amp setup when playing larger outdoor gigs when you can crank things up, even then I will run the shiva into my ox to feed into the PA.
The twitter is meant to make the response of the speak flatter. The IR is supposed to give the response of a guitar speaker, that fed into an FRFR would reproduce is close as possible. If you prefer darker sounds, you could explore with an IR from a darker speaker. If you use an IR and feed that into a guitar speaker, you would be getting a darker sound than the speaker the IR was created from.
Recently sold my Line6 PowerCab and have my Laney 212 LFR for sale. Loved the sound, but it was very directional. As soon as I stepped out of the "beam" I could no longer hear myself. Just bought a Twin Tonemaster and use Helix as FX only... its a revelation... Sound from everywhere and back to natural feedback etc. And yes having a EQ on the front of the amp helps. I also have a high cut on global EQ and usually cut aroun 5-6khz at home and at gigs down to 2.5-3khz.
And the LFR 212 sounds montrous... love it! But Twin wins, also its half the weight.
So in my experience, I went back to a cab (2x12 open back with Weber Fane copies) as there was something a bit hi-fi about the FRFRs I tried. I have an Atomic CLR wedge, and some Matrix FRFRs (none with built in power amp). I was using a Seymour Duncan 700W PowerStage, but now have other options which I will try. I haven't spent enough time EQing and tweaking, so I think that's one of the issues.
I plug my Zoom G3n into the power amp in of my Fender Champ 25R and it sounds really wonderful.
The preamp in the combo is so noisy and it hummy. The power amp noise floor by contrast is silent.
For clean stuff it really is great and 25W is good enough for stage monitoring.
The G3n does a decent job emulating a range of preamps for high gain stuff.
Using a cab emulation also helps as the volume goes up and the natural breakup of the power tubes sounds divine.
I had my Zoom on Krampus and ran it to my 5150 Iconic and my 4x12 celestion cab to the left and a Randall 100 watt 2x12 on the right. It was phenomenal. Had to downsize. Almost cried.
Have to go with one of these.
Interesting. 25 years ago I used to play my POD 2 through an AER (Power Amp in) and folks looked at me as if I was crazy. FRFR has come along way. Thanks for great videos. Oh... and I hate too much top... dark is good.
Love your personality, sincerity, musicality. Regarding EVM 12 inch: I had one in a Fender Deluxe for a couple years; until I played a 12" Celestion in a similar Fender Deluxe I could not get the personality, warmth, typical Guitar speaker distortion. For me the EVM was like a PA speaker… Sort of FRFR 🙂
A lot of tweeters, particularly cheaper ones, are a bit harsh, don't have a smooth response.
With a crossover point around 1.8kHz to 2.5kHz any phase problems could be messing with important frequencies for guitar.
Bi-amped powered cabs will have the crossover before the power amps which can help.
Having your own sound source is a good safety net if you don't know the pa you'll be using.
The live performance (@04:58) with people dancing is great, even the singer likes it !
I’ve been using the power amp in on a boss katana for gigs recently. It works really nicely with a modeler, there’s no eq on that setup but it does sound just like the modeler is a real amp.
I did the same then got powercab 112+. Katana sounded great and more open.
Are you using mono out presets into the power amp in? Any other advice? I already own a Katana so I want to try that with FM9 before buying anything else. Thanks
Hey friend, everything okay? I follow your work and see that you have many videos of the helix line. In your opinion, in a concert situation, does it sound better on a powercab type frfr or on the return of a tube amplifier like a Marshall dsl 40cr with the ir turned off?
Lately I’ve been using a Kemper Profiler just using my amp profiles without IR with my Axe Fx 3 mk II for IR’s, effects and pedals. II just like the consistency of FRFR but haven’t found a speaker cabinet that I like. I love the tone through my studio monitors but there are no high power speakers with dome tweeters. I’ve been using Yamaha DXR10 mkII but I have to heavily eq them because they have way too much of 350Hz-450Hz and 1.5 kHz. I’ve been looking around for alternatives but many of them are not loud enough.
Don't forget, most modelers, if not all of them, are equipped with EQ blocks. You can also add an EQ to your rig. An EQ is a way of controlling any unwanted frequencies coming through your FRFR. Personally, I like the full range of an FRFR because there are certain presets that wouldn't sound nearly as full without it.
It doesn’t give you the warm organic orgasm that only tubes provide to this day. You’ve been brainwashed to forget my child. Let me bring you back to the light. Don’t forget the light of analog, that which feels, and touches your tone with warm embrace. ❤
use filter .then set low and high pass to 5k .
You caused me to finally hook up my helix to my Mesa 2:90 stereo tube power amp! Then i went out into my Marshall 1960 split stereo 4X12 cab.
It sounds so incredible! For a year I only went out to a PA system and was happy enough.
What got me motivated and curious was your comment about the existence of tweeters being unnatural for guitar amplification which finally got me to try this today! Thank you very much.
You directly saved me well over $1,000 as I was in the FRFR market. 😊
I use my powered Kemper into my Engl XL Pro cab, speaker off on Kemper obviously. Sounds awesome!
A used solid state stereo combo is the perfect fit, & some of them are dirt cheap. The cheap ones are anything inspired by a Roland JC-120, but made by Fender / Peavey / Crate etc. usually marketed as 'Chorus' amps. I use preamp pedals with stereo FX into the stereo FX returns, it's a killer budget stereo rig.
Very interesting and agree. I’ve been using my Fender Tone Master modeler amp, with cab and works great. I have the qsc k12 and still prefer the amp for some stage sound, with my iems as well.
I have the Fender Deluxe Tonemaster as well and now using the Tonex pedal. The Tonemaster does not have an effects loop, so are you just plugging your modeler into the front of it?
@@jmtab yes i do in to main channel 2 from from the fractals L monitor output. I keep Treble at 1 or 0 an bass at 2, amp is very aggresive on mids with my Novo serus J. This works nicely for a nice stage sound.
I think you nailed it when you brought up the question of why would you use a FRFR cab that weighs just as much as a common amp... I appreciate the thoughts. This makes me want to get the Bluguitar Amp X even more when it comes out, since I imagine it can be used with the nano cab and fat cab (which are relatively lighter in weight).
Yep, why not just get a tube amp if you’re gonna drag around an FRFR ?
What FRFR or powered speaker have you used that weighs as much as a tube amp?? Tube amps are way heavier than a powered speaker
Ok I just saw his laney 212 example. Yes in that case I agree, why go through that trouble and not just use an amp
Because in essence with a modeller you’re not carrying one tube amp but 250 or so and potentially hundreds of speaker cabs. Not saying you necessarily need that, the point is that any modeller with FRFR will be more flexible than one particular tube amp. My main concern is how it feels, I sometimes feel I’m missing something when going back to my Fractal FM3 with FR speakers after having plaid a real tube amp again.
@@michielnijboer - Having never owned or played a hand wired boutique amp, I am not qualified to say modelers are as good as any tube amp. However, having owned and played several typical, sub $1000, circuit board tube amps, I can say today’s modeling is neck and neck with any of those. And it is that class of amp that you see most often in live settings.
I just got a solid state power amp to feed my favorite cab, and to me it’s the perfect sweet spot for helix. All I was missing was a real cab in the room, not amp in the room.
I like running my Kemper Stage in stereo to my Line 6 Powercab 212+, and then taking a mono XLR from the Powercab to the FOH. Allows me to have full “stereo” stage monitoring but pass-through a mono signal to the sound engineer. Independent volume control onstage that doesn’t affect the level sent to FOH.
I think the number one issue many overlook is that one thinks just because I now have an FRFR amp that they now how an equivalent of a real amp on stage. What they really have is the sound of a real amp mic!d on stage.
which is the sound every album and gig you listen to sounds like. Its all Mic'd.
Hello. Thanks for sharing.
Do I correctly understood you? If you have jbl lsr mk2 (or something like this) and you are playing at home so you dont need to have frfr for home playing cause of there is no benefits from it? And also in the monitors you by default have stereo which will costs with 2 frfr or with Powercab 212 pretty pricey?
I stopped using my PC+ FRFR and still love my helix, so I do 4CM my my tube amp. I like the idea of running in the return. Do you have any videos of this preset example because I'd like to try some helix amps with my tube amp power section.
I use Two Notes Le Clean tube preamp with Two Notes CAB M+ (4x12 V30) after it, pedals before and stereo pedals after it.
Im a little bit torn between Fender FR-12 to use after CAB M+ VS EHX 5mm poweramp and just a regular cab with V30.
I suspect the cab with real guitar speaker could use alot better even without ale the eq options avaliable on FR-12 (i have a eq pedal
i ill need to shape the sound some more), also that would have no latency at all.
I also have and like my Ibanez TSA15 combo but i love the fender twin sounds from Le Clean preamp.
I use my FM3 in 4 cable method with my tube amp and cabinet. Amazing effects from fractal and all the tones from a tube amp. For gigs where a quick change is needed, Ill use the full modelling with FRFR as a monitor,. Otherwise the FRFR only gets used at home..
I'm a home player. I bought a pair of Atomic CLR powered FRFR's a few years back. While they were good, I didn't feel they were $2k-good.
As an experiment, I ran through a pair of 8" Mackie studio monitors. At low-medium volumes, they did quite well. Right now, I'm running QC into a pair of Adam A77X's and I've never been happier.
Return of a peavey bandit is pretty great. Just running preamps into it with fx in between.
I bought a stereo FRFR to make practicing at home flap my pants more than with my 5" studio monitors, while still preserving some semblance of similarity to the sound I get through my reference IEMs (UE RRM) at gigs.
Another convenience is with helix you can then play your baking tracks into the FRFR too over USB from iOS or computer.
what kind of stereo FRFR do you use?
Whatever sound you dial in at home or in the studio invariably won't work in a live situation and that's why one of the most useful pedals on the planet is a BOSS 7 band EQ. Its a great clean boost (as well) and allows you to sculpt your sounds to suit the venue. Each venue has different acoustics - that's why there are things called sound checks... of course smaller bands and pub / wedding events won't have this luxury - hence the BOSS is great to tweak during the gig. Playing to an empty venue in comparison to playing to it full of people affects the sound as well. It a live situation more mids are useful (to cut through the mix) - your "bedroom/studio set-up" won't reflect this as you're not playing with a full band at home... so at home less mids - during a gig more is required.
That PEDAL show has a lot of useful info about EQs etc. Lastly there are some really good "amp-in-a-pedal" solutions out there, where I am sure you could plug your modeller into it to get really good tones. I am considering one of the H&K Spirit Nano amps, which I think will be a great way of generating great sounds at lowish cost for home recording as well as playing "live" - I suggest one that has a decent amount of headroom or a solid state amp that won't distort at hight volumes.
I agree with John - why buy a FRFR to take to a gig when you can carry a guitar speaker cab... I suggest a 1x12 is more than good enough for 80% of the time - buy a used one.
For years we have simply run our Line 6 units direct into PAs.. live or practice. Actually the only amp in our band is used by the keyboard player for his Hammond.
I go from my pedalboard straight into the Return on my Boss Katana 100 and it works great, usingva Strymon Iridium btw sounds class 👍🏼
Great analysis! Thank you. There's no "correct" way. I'm new to the HXstompXL and for now, I plug it into the return of my (old) Fender Blues Deluxe. There's a lot of headroom, the presence control can tame the high-frequency peaks and I could swap the speaker if I wanted to.
I use the Friedman FRFR and it solved my problem of not having my presets sound the same through
FOH PA as they do at home. I don't have an on stage amp because we use in-ear monitors. When I was using my (cheap) studio monitors my preset dod not translate well.
I've got a 30 watt Orange PPC-112 cab after my pedalboard solid state poweramp. I think it sounds better, much more 'real' than the Laney FRFR I tried last year. Plus no hassle with simulated cabs or IR's. Just switch my rig on and play. And it saves you blocks and DSP for effects and stuff. One minor catch, not all amps sound great with my analog Orange PPC-112 cab but some, like the Brit Plexy (Jump) sounds really great. If you have a Vox or Fender cab you'll probably have another cross section of amps that you dig.
Interesting concept, so i run a bit of an interesting rig. I run a Kemper rack and an engl pre amp with a VHT D50 handwired dumble clone, the VHT has a Pre amp bypass so it becomes a Fryette Power amp essentially, but if i want heavy heavy i have the Engl, the kemper is great for everything else depending. and then i have that running out into an old 1970s princeton that was broken from work, took the amp out and its now a 2x10 cab with a Fender blue (eminence)10 inch speaker from 1970 and a celestion 10 creamback. theres a seperate 2x4 cab depending on what i need todo. but its pretty cool playing around with all the difference tones and possiblites you can have
My question about running into the effects return of an amp concerns the fact that the modeler (Quad Cortex in my case) is already utilizing speaker cab simulators. Would running a cabinet simulation into a guitar cabinet not possibly cancel or alter what your are getting, vs an FRFR. I am aware that any speaker has some coloring. But, If I am simulating a vintage Jensen open back cabinet for a fender amp, and running that into a amp with a closed back cab loaded with Greenbacks...will that net render the modeled Jensen somewhat moot? Wouldn't the actual physical cabinet dominate that equation? Seems like that would be the same logic as simulating a Fender Tweed and running it into the front of your Marshal DSL 2000. It will just sound like an EQ'd Marshal.