Mixing MIDI Drums VS. Mixing REAL Drums
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- Опубліковано 27 лип 2022
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Mixing midi drums ain't the same as mixing real drums.
As much as I love midi drums (half of the projects I'm hired to mix feature midi drums), you can almost never mix them like you would REAL drums.
This is an area where so many home studio owners go wrong.
Spikey, weird, over-compressed, plasticky-sounding drum tracks all because of this common mixing mistake.
The problem is that drum software companies do their best to make these tools sound killer straight out of the box.
Because of this, the usual EQ and compression techniques that pro mixers teach in tutorials will often yield disastrous results when applied to your midi drums.
So the question is...how should you be mixing your midi drums for the best results?
What's the difference between midi drum mixing and live drum mixing?
Drums are drums, right?
NOPE. Not even close.
In this tutorial, I reveal my dead-simple approach to mixing midi drums.
I even do a side-by-side comparison of the exact same song mixed with both real drums AND midi drums so that you can see and hear the difference.
Featured artist: King Kelly ( / kingkellymusic )
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I usually to do almost the same stuff on everything, but I actually followed your advice and started to threat midi drums in a different way, and it sounds a lot better! By the way, Thanks man !
yes yes yes and yes. I absolutely used to do this, something that's so overlooked and I honestly didn't know myself until about a year ago. Great video and killer advice.
Thanks brotha! I’m new to mixing and I, like many, use midi drums. I’m currently using SD3 and it makes sense NOW not to EQ and over compress the drums. Back to the drawing board! Thanks again my dude! Your content has really helped me out over the last couple of months🤘
Great to hear!
That's really good info! I usually watch tutorials specific to the MIDI drum not general studio ones, they are quite different in my experience. I use GGD's P4, and there are some good tutorials dedicated to that. I think the studio version tutorials are some very good starting points to let you know the basics of mixing drum, and they tell you why you should use them. And it depends on your ears, if the MIDI drum sounds already processed, then you should mix it as it would sound like, not copy templates from the others.
Btw I love your videos where the part your sound demo is really long enough to let us know the difference, I saw a lot of videos just have 2s of sound demo that is hard to remember.
amazing as usual! thanks bobby!!!
I use Superior Drummer 3, which is also pre-mixed, but I turn off the mixing plugins in SD3 so I can mix it myself in my daw. I'm definitely gonna try just replacing the sounds I don't like at the source to see if it sounds more natural. Thanks.
Hey Bobby,
Love your videos, super helpful. Just wanted to mention, in case you wanted to check them out, the Mixwave Mario Duplantier drums are what I’ve been using and it actually has a cool feature where you can strip all the processing to get the raw recorded sound to manipulate yourself. ….I’m not good enough to do that yet, but I thought I’d let you know since you’d mentioned not having experienced raw MIDI drums!Keep doing what you do!
I've heard a lot of midi drums that are supposedly "raw" and they're clearly not, but I'll definitely check them out!
Literally have been looking for this video for weeks and couldn't find it. Turns out it didn't exist yet! Thanks for sharing my dude.
Happy to have been a help!
Yep - guilty! You pointed this out in a Mix Crypt session a ways back and that was a "aha" moment for me. Since then I revisited my old mixes...saw and heard the error of my ways. Great stuff Bobby as always 😎
Thanks man needed to hear this. Omg!!
Good points! I program long time with Superior Drummer as guitar player and it needs time to understanding how real drums works and drummers playing. There is so much dynamic, the timing is not perfect on the grid and you have to work for overheads and rooms another way if you use "clean" samples without bleed or playing without additional and quiet hits and variations...
Really good point. But the main reason I wanted to comment is to say that the mix sounds absolutely phenomenal! Those guitars just crawl up the sides beautifully. I've watched several of your videos, and I really like your perspective. New sub.
Glad you dug it man! You can check out how this production was recorded in this series: ua-cam.com/video/BlxNaHtuDjk/v-deo.html
gb?!?! You're a fright box fan too??? haha I've learned so much from him 😅
@@NathanLaBee Haha!! Heck yeah! His perspective is clarifying and makes improvement seem more attainable. Good to see you here!
@@gbfusion dude for sureeee! His videos are great! Haha I referenced them a lot when I was mixing my “As seen on TV” album. His videos and the Joey Sturgis videos helped me a ton
@@NathanLaBee Yeah, so much of what he says just makes sense that I just let his advice guide me. I haven't watched any Sturgis videos, but I'll check them out. I try to open up one new mixing skill every month or so. Small steps. My most recent tutorial was on the use of reverb by Heron Island Studio. That was a great find too.
I use EZD, often using Metal Machine kits with cymbals from a variety of EZX packs. All i do, usually, is a little EQ on the kick and toms to shape the tone to my liking (maybe a high pass on the toms to eliminate the very low end rumble), a light transient shaper to give a little more "bite" or edge on the kick, and a bit of light parallel compression, and saturation to give some character. I used to try to process MIDI drums like live drums and they sounded very overprocessed. I needed to see videos like this to get what I was doing wrong.
Nice comparison, thank you!
Guilty as charged! I’m now correcting this mistake on a few of my songs and things are sounding so much better!
I was processing my drums on superior drummer 3 because I followed your Heavy Mix Formula and assumed that the same principles applied to both Midi and Live drums, I dont know why because in the back of my mind I knew that midi drums normally are processed to sound good in most situations
I was having audio dropouts from EZ Drummer (mainly with the ride) so I decided to split the kit and record each instrument as it's own audio wav rather than use Toontrack's mixer. I had no idea it's generally preferred that way so I reckon I'm on the right track (no pun intended). Great tutorial 🎧
Well done mate. It's a little late for me as it took me over a year to work this one out, but I'm certain it's going to save a lot of other people from making the same mistake.
Man, I really needed this. Thank you
Any time!
I think it depends on what kind of drum library you're getting. The OKWs by GGD for example are heavily processed already, but they're transparent about them and tell you that not much mixing or processing is needed when using those.
A kit like GGD Invasion on the other hand is mostly unprocessed though, so you can "go wild" with it.
So I think people need to be cautious and check out how much the library they're using is processed already and then decide what to do, and not blindly process everything. :)
I gotta check them out! I've heard a few different libraries that were supposed to be raw and were definitely not 100% raw.
Yup bingo.
This is a timely tutorial for me, since I just got into drum VST's for the first time (EZ Drummer 3). It's an amazing tool but definitely a different challenge as far as EQ'Ing
I have such a hard time with crash cymbals in ez drummer 3
Yeah. I am mixing a project with EZDrummer 2 and I am having a hard time controlling the snare. It peaks really high and if I lower it, it gets lost. I am working with printed audio so I cannot lower the velocity of the snare to control it better. I am trying using a limiter and it is helping. I used your previous cheat sheet and it helped me a lot on the overall sound. Cheers from Chile, Bobby!!
Have you tried a clipper?
I haven't made these mistakes with my midi drums, because I have no idea how to mix real drums either 😂🤣
Thank you I'm going to start using some of your ideas. I'm such a noob when it comes to the mixing/mastering side of things. Some of the things you're talking about I've never even considered.
Thanks for your very informative videos man,. Just found you in my feed, glad I did.
New subscriber.
Thanks for watching!
I use EZDrummer and I've never messed with the drum sounds at all. Since they were recorded and mixed by incredible engineers I feel that all I would do by changing them would be making them worse. 😅
The only thing I do is tweak the settings in the mixer panel of EZD to my liking before committing them.
Again, great advice, Bobby! Thank you!
Thanks for watching, Marcel!
Round...is always the missing ingredient with digital sampled drums. That live snare needed some "crack" with them Vox tho....imo
How did you create the midi drums playing, keyboard playing along to song or just keyed in on a piano track? Just curious on the velocities of all the hits. Thanks for the videos.
Checked out the checklist, and the one thing I really can't agree with is the volume recommendation. Digital drum apps (because it's how synths work) will trigger slightly different sample at different velocities. Kicks where you want that snappy attack will just be wildly inconsistent if you don't turn them way up for every hit. Snares will have a different timbre if they're not turned up pretty high.
I think I've learned more from this channel than any other channel. And, listen people -I am a UA-cam Audio Tutorial Watching CHAMPION...
Stoked to hear that Mr. Bo!
@@FrightboxRecording Hell yeah, dawg! Thanks for the content!
lol i use youtube all the time. i'm a self taught wanna be drummer. I took lessons for about 3 months, got them for my 60 bday. I learned how to read music, which was cool. but most of what I learned, I learned by ear & youtube videos.
Hey Bobby, what stands do you use for your overheads? What do you recommend?
Yes I was definitely guilty of this early on in my mixing journey, but I do waaay less processing on midi drums these days
Great stuff as always, Bobby! I know in the past you've mentioned throwing a limiter on your drum buss ... do you do that on midi drums as well or no?
Yes!! Either a limiter, saturator, or a clipper .
@@FrightboxRecording Thanks, man!
@@FrightboxRecording I hadn't thought about putting a saturation plug in on my drum bus. I use Fresh Air (clap lifter preset) to give it a little fresh, cleaner quality but I have started using PreBox (tape saturation) on my guitar bus to great success. I'll try it on the drum bus and see how that works.
Dumb question. When and where do you use Multi-band Compression?
Is it a bus thing for mixing or a master bus thing for final bounce?
Thank you so much for getting right to the point in your vids. No comedy material, no puppets just education. 😎👍
Sample drums are sweet. Live drums means work! I learn from you to cut parts on toms (where not sound) instead gating. But i use this technique on kick, snare even cymbals and the results are nice!
Happy to hear that!
Personally, I found that MIDI drums really benefit from adding some dirt to them. Mostly by putting on some decent amount of saturation and a "dirty" parallel compressor on the drum bus. Kristian Kohle has a great video to demonstrate the effect: ua-cam.com/video/cIKXHv6y0_M/v-deo.html
It works even better with those super polished MIDI drums. I use the Parallel Aggressor since it has that nice auto gain compensation so I don't have to worry about the "louder sounds better" effect.
Need to check that out. Thanks for the advice and link!
Good comment
The quastion is if you have bfd3 plugin with great drum samples and you can remove all FX in the plugin
so you can mix them as raw live drums
Sennheiser used to have VST called Drummic'A that was basically a huge advert for Sennheiser and Neumann mics so it was pretty raw. The free version was great but something screwed up with their activation server or they just didn't want people hosting it in the free Kontact Player anymore so it broke and rather than give NI a ton of money I switched to SSD 5.5 Free which has a good "lightly" processed kit bundled. The manual says: "The samples are unprocessed with the exception of slight EQ and compression. All the overheads are unprocessed (except for a mellow highpass). The room mics are only processed with light and subtle compression as well as a gentle mid cut". It's about the rawest I've been able to find outside of VSTs for little like 3 piece jazz kits.
And after switching I was able to copy most of my processing for Drummic'A as it was with only slight adjustments to account for what SSD already did.
I use midi drums in all of my recordings. I don't put any compression on them since they already have compression on them and I only EQ them slightly to cut certain frequencies.
You're a smart man!
7:45. Glenn Fricker / Specter Media JUST released a midi drum program that supposedly have that “recorded in a real studio feel” to it, with bleed added into all mics etc.
If the guitars are panned hard left hard right, where do the drums fit in regards to panning? Is each element (kick, snare, hats) panned individually or do you leave it straight down the centre?
Definitely depends on what library/samples you are using. If you are using preprocessed drums (I.e. EZDrummer), then you don’t really need to do much to them but if you are using raw samples, then you can go ham.
Yes!
Came here to say this. A lot of Slate samples and ez drummer require very little processing. Superior drummer 3 on the other hand, has that “natural raw” sound, and I tend to do more processing on those
I know this is a drum video but man those guitars.
🎆🎆
I used to mix Drum VSTs like they are live drum for a while but then one day, I decided to not mix anything mid writing and recording and left the drums alone as they were and found them to sound way better than my mixed VST drums, so I switched to doing very little/not doing anything to VST drums ever since.
My songs sounded way better since then with minimal mixing.
And this video is a confirmation for that.
Thank you.
My pleasure!
i use steven slate drums and superior drummer 3 and the only plug in i need is fabfilter q2 and sometimes i don't even need one as sd3 has eq built in to it.. superior 3 has the bleed option and overhead option but it is a HUGE file so best to have a 2nd hard drive. nothing beats the real deal but for us basement dwelling fellas who love to create it opened up so many possibilities.
Sometimes when I'm lazy I treat the channel of my drum plug in as if it were my drum bus channel .. I put an SSL channel Strip on it , cut a lil bit low end and a lil bit around 500,boost a lil bit of 8k , do the SSL compression trick and after that I put a tape saturation on the channel and with some parallel compression it sounds quite sick actually.
Great video! New sub.
I use BandLab and I honestly don't do much processing on MIDI drums, never felt the need to, aside from some small amount of reverb.
Ive been converting to wav for a couple years thanks to Bobby!!!!!!
Hell yeah, happy to hear that!
So also the original mix preset is processed?
It does exist! Urgitone Kvlt drums VST 😀 Friggin' amazing for those of us who want that basement vibe without having to over process and destroy studio grade midi drums lol
I came to the comments to say the same about ugritone.
How did you get such good isolation on your snare drum on the live kit?
Proper mic'ing technique and a good drummer. You can check out my process for recording these exact drums in this video: ua-cam.com/video/BlxNaHtuDjk/v-deo.html
Great video! But how about Superior Drummer? You can get the SDX with all the bleed. Sure, they went through a desk, but other than that they are raw! Right?
No, or nothing compared to what "raw" means to us mortals.
Going through a specific mic with a specific tone, passing through Neve's preamp, removing ugly resonances and compressiong the output anyway is not nearly the same as putting an sm57 on a snare and going directly in a focusrite.
Also, the softwares that claim to have raw sounds have presets with internal eqs and compressor anyway.
Reason is, if you would really sell drumsets fully raw, people would just think "ok, that sucks".
@@ChristianIce I guess you're right. Also being recorded in top notch studios, with top notch engineers, using top notch equipment setup by people who actually know what they're doing is miles removed from slapping an SM57 on a snare in an old rehearsal room... I love Superior Drummer!
I would add... why compressing a midi snare at all?
Unless you want to change the proportions between hits and ghost notes, I would use an envelope shaper if needed, and leave the compression to the drum bus.
Great video nonetheless!
Subbed.
Dude you are the best youtube channel for mixing advice, thankyou so much
Happy to have been a help, Mr. King!
lo i need to learn how to read it in the first place !! what is what on a drum track.
as someone who has never mixed real drums, I had nothing to go off of. I have never thought about this.
I am 100% guilty of this.
I can't believe the singer has a Antonello Venditti shirt 2:59
nice playing bobby
Thanks man!
I'm sorta guilty, but only because my drum samples are samples of my drum kit at my studio, recorded with a four mic set up... I did this because sometimes I'd just prefer a raw nasty sound, but the flexibility of midi tracks.
nice track, what is it?
Drumgizmo! Full RAW library's. & Absolutely free) yes, there are some disadvantages, of course, but raw & free.
I agree with you. But in superior drummer I tend to process them more. I think they also are raw recorded.
Interesting! I've found the opposite to be true in my experience.
@@FrightboxRecording The preset are processed but in non destructive way. Meaning they used the effect inside SD3.
But what I did.. I built my own kit/preset from scrach and no processing .. meaning raw samples. So I use my daw and effects to do what I want to do
I was definitely guilty of this for a long time. It would be neat though to have a midi program with a bunch of raw samples so we could treat them closer to real drums.
BFD3
7:14 not always. SOME are already processed.
But Superior Drummer are unprocessed if you just remove all the plugins
I would say libraries like Kvlt drums are that much more raw than SD3
@@marcorodriguez7694 The sounds in SD3 are unprocessed until applied plugins.
So Kvlt are not "more raw". If both are unprocessed, they are just equally "raw".You cannot get "more raw" than "raw". It doesn't make any sense.
@@cederickforsberg5840 Listen to both libraries, Kvlt sounds like it was recorded in a garage, SD3 core library, not as much. Now I will say that listening to the demos on their site from their Death and Darkness expansions, the kits there sound absolutely raw, more so that their core library. That's just how my ear process the sound no offense.
@@marcorodriguez7694 I understand that. But "raw" just means unprocessed, no matter if its recorded in a garage or top-tier studio. Raw is the definition of "uncooked". Uncooked food can be both meat of high quality family farm cow or industrial cheically boosted cow. Not cooked = raw.
I'm not dismissing your taste in drum sounds, but you cannot say "more raw" because there's only raw.
@@cederickforsberg5840 I get what your'e saying, but I have to question how "raw" their drum libraries, especially their core library really is after listening to Kvlt drums. Unprocessed drums sound extremely boxy and kinda weird, on SD3 not nearly as much as KVLT drums but hey, that's just how my ears take it. But like I said, I've heard the raw presets of their death and darkness library and that too me sound much more raw/unprocessed that their core library.
If you deactivate SD3 mixer processing, it's pretty much raw.
How do I get a copy of this song? Who is the band? Thanks
The song is called "Jep & Ramona Ain't Gonna Make It" by King Kelly. Unfortunately, it hasn't been officially released yet. Stay tuned!
It depends on the midi drums. EzDrummer is not raw, and some of the GGD are also not raw, but you can make it raw, and superior drummer is raw - so you can mix them as you would with a real drummer.
This Guys Singing Voice Sound Like Chris Daughtry Of "Daughtry"
Somebody else mentioned it, but I think Ugirtone's Kvlt Drums II uses raw samples.
Really? I've heard they're semi-processed, but I gotta check them out for myself. I've heard great things about them.
@@FrightboxRecording Yeah I'm seeing some people say that they're processed to some degree now since I've searched more. They're probably right and it's just a case that they're not processed as much as other plugins, so you have to tweak them to your liking. They're definitely not polished, at the very least.
BOBBY!!!!!! TYTY FRFR!!!! Damn right!
Where do I send my mix for a review c:
If you're on my email list, just respond to one of my emails with a link to your song.
@@FrightboxRecording how do I join the list?
@@joecinder3828 Just download the free checklist and you'll be automatically added.
Well....time to start over on the drum mixes for my album 😑
For me, BFD3 is the closest thing to a real recorded kit that is out there and it's a decade old. Though they do have a few expansions that are more processed, the majority of them are not. They are the most tweak-able, natural sounding drums out there. I prefer them because they allow you to learn and apply the techniques used for mixing live recorded drums. I don't want the shortcuts to a finished drum sound. I want to get there on my own.
Sounds like "Alien Ant Farm" haha that’s awesome!
Well if someone is processing the heck out of midi drums, it means they don’t even use their ears to begin with (because they should be able to tell when a sound need processing or not). A lot of amateurs also tend to overprocess everything because they feel like it doesn’t sound the way they want, but they don’t realize their levels aren’t right, and most of the time, they are mixing through a overly processed mix bus (some of them even use a mastering fx chain to polish the mix before it’s done). I’d say that most people should stop watching mixing videos on UA-cam and start using their ears. If it sounds good, then it is good.. End of Story.
Geez, Bobby got me guilt on this one. Let's go check things again
The real drums sound a lot better I have to say. I think it's just because of the drummer being really good and really playing with conviction. You can tweak the velocity all day in the midi but it just won't be the same. And this is coming from someone who's been using ez drummer for the past ten years :D
“We live in the best time ever…”. So true. People have no idea what it was like 35 years ago trying to play and record guitar.
I mostly use the wil Putney ezx with ezdrummer. That guy has forgotten more about drum recording than most people will ever know. So I use midi files, and make some adjustments to the midi in ezdrummer (like powerhand, etc) but otherwise I don’t do anything to them. I literally take the midi files and then bounce (Logic Pro) then to sound tracks. Other than volume, I do nothing to them. They sound amazing as is.
The real trick is to just use your ears -I'm finding myself using less and less EQ these days because I've discovered that I'm already kind of eq'ing everything with my mic choices...
Hello everyone. My personal opinion: the Slate Drums (the free version) works great in order to apply various common drums mixing technics. I've tried EZ Drums, Addictive Drums, MODO Drums, Studio Drums(for Kontakt), and all of them sound "too already-done", too focused on a specific style. I don't mean to say that a real drum can sound appropriate for any genre or style, but SSDums can be shaped more easily than the others... to my understanding
hard for me to focus on anything in this song....lots of sound going on aka clashing
(imo)
Me too
In my opinion the EZDrummer version sounds much better.
The live snare is over compressed, to punchy, so the voice falls behind. Also the kick, to much klick. The EZD version fits the song much better
Another thing to mention, the new Superior Drummer let u mix the raw drums too
Anyway, in this case LIVE drums miles away from midi drums. Great Job.
use your ears - what does it need - don't apply processing unless it (sounds) like it needs it
Truer words have never been spoken.
kvlt drums im pretty sure is just raw samples 7:50
yeah the ugritone stuff is raw but has a little processing on it
Jep and Ramona Ain’t Gonna Make It
The Bfd 3 Drumasonic is the most realistic drum set.
Bfd 3 and Drumasonic The most realistic drum set.
Jesus, why hasn't anyone done this video before? It's like Bobby is the only UA-camr who gives a shit.
Guilty
Mix midi drums like you mix samples. Live instruments are completely different! Mics are different, positioning, rooms, amps, whatever it is is not the same as sampled or pre processed sounds or loops.
Exactly!
If you mix with your ears, you wont have this problem ;)
666th like woo
Can you furnish us with some insights regarding the business model where woodducks are encouraged to sign up for free cheat sheets?