I'm Italian and I had 2 great-grandparents who fought in the First World War, one was in the Bersaglieri and came back luckily while the other was a daring and he lost his life on the piave during an assault. Honor all the soldiers of the first war world real heroes.
My great-great-grandfather fought on Piave too, but on the other side for the Austrians... He was shot in the leg and in the stomach, both shots he survived. We may be different by culture or anything, but still we all are humans. Make love, not war Condolences from Czech republic..
I think through dna testing if they recover bones they might be able to figure out whos who and maybe dog tags to but yeah its upseting ww1 was brutal to say the least
My great great grandfather was part of the Gebirgsjäger in the Austro-Hungarian army and fought the Italians in WW1 he survived the war and although I never met him my great grand mother would show me pictures and tell me story's of how they would have to climb 90 degree angle cliffs and hoist huge guns up them and they would walk over massive, bottom-less crevice's and if someone fell down one they wouldn’t even bother to help because he was either dead or there would be no way to get them out. Crazy how horrible war is.
I won't be coming home I won't be going anywhere I will guard this post forever Here on the Alpine slope, where I did my final stand I shall remain Among the ice and snow that binds me to this mountain A force of nature too strong, sent from above Where spirits lead the way, the winds will never fade White Friday, I'll take the Stairway to heaven I'm sky high, when I die I'll be immortal Forever, I never I won't return to Blood mountain, I am the Soldier of heaven I saw the end of war I watched the soldiers come and go And I kept my watch forever So many brave men fell in the battles that were raging down below I have seen it all but none will hear my story All of these years I have been frozen in time I cried for spring to come but here Winter remain! White Friday, I'll take the Stairway to heaven I'm sky high, when I die I'll be immortal Forever, I never I won't return to Blood mountain, I am the Soldier of heaven I always dreamed that I would, serve high above Where spirits lead the way, the winds will never fade White Friday, I'll take the Stairway to heaven I'm sky high, when I die I'll be immortal Forever, I never I won't return to Blood mountain, I am the Soldier of heaven White Friday, I'll take the Stairway to heaven I'm sky high, when I die I'll be immortal Forever, I never I won't return to Blood mountain, I am the Soldier of heaven ("Soldier of Heaven" - Sabaton)
@@francescomaporti1897 thank you very much for your reply. I'm fairly well versed on my history, but this is a part I don't know much about. Thanks again...
Honor to all this men, both Italians than Austro-Hungarian Soldiers, who bravery gave their life for their Country when it was asked. My great grandfather was an Ardita (an Arditi Soldier) who died during the Monte Grappa Offensive 🇮🇹
Yes, but if you ask them, they probably preferred to be back to their beloved ones, mother's or girlfriends/wife's. As you know as I do, it's full of letters and songs, written back than. Reality is not always like we portrait it, but it doesn't take away their sacrifice.
The donkeys were probably thinking "Oh, this is nice, if we haven't been forced into all sorts of nonsense throughout history already--now mankind wants to fight in the mountains, ice and cold to be frozen there permanently--well, right this way, gents. But watch your step."
I spent my first two years of military service in the 1.German Mountain Division, including basic training in winter time in the Bavarian Alps. We usually moved up to a level of 2000 meters. It sucked. Thinking about how those guys with less advanced equipment, under artillery and infantry fire and up to 3000 meters must have suffered is beyond my imagination. If you have to go to war, stay away from the mountains. It just sucks.
Stay away from mountains in the army in general. My division (10th Mtn.) loses a few people every year in training. Wet sleeping bag and froze, slipped on a belay doing a descent, or just got lost in the snow, or any of a myriad of ways the mountains can kill you.
It's so sad. I never would die like this, who wants? The bodies of these young men have been lost 100 years ago and their relatives have never seen them. They died lost forever. Only for the madness of a bunch of men which have started a war and never fought.
Genius 👍 Very well said. War is stupid. I find the fact that anyone kills for beliefs (religion) or power and arrogance is very sickening. Every person is someone's son or daughter. No need to take someone else's family away from them.
It's the same old story that's been repeated over the ages. Humankind forgets the lessons history teaches all too quickly. It makes one wonder about the evils that man unleashes on his fellow man...and is there really something in our DNA that destines us to destroy ourselves. I live in the United States and I can still walk some of the Civil War battlefields close to my home and pick up items that still lay on top of the Earth. I can only imagine what it's like in Europe and Asia, being that the US is a relatively young nation. It gives some understanding of why Sabbath wrote "War Pigs."
@@Twitch_Moderator 😠👎 It's always about power and money! Arrogance and misplaced pride among the political leaders also played a major part in WW1, mainly because the leaders don't have to pay any price for their arrogance and pride! That's the "duty" of the regular people! The ONLY reason that Italy agreed to fight in WW1 for the allies, is because their leaders were promised to be paid in territory if the allies won! They may have fought on the other side if offered a better deal! 👹😈👺
Respect their duty They fight for their country More than 357 000 italian soldiers are wounded,die and even lost and never found during the war in alpine mountain REST IN PEACE 🇮🇹
Many men killed on the Italian front lost their lives to avalanches, both from natural slippage and man made avalanches. Absolutely horrible what these men went through
We call it La Guerra Bianca, The White War. My grandfhater and his 3 brothers fight in the Carso mountains. My g.f wounded permanently, one of brothers missing in action. Giampiero from Italy
I just said a prayer while this music was playing and I can not explain to you the thoughts and feelings that went through me. How blessed we are, how much we have been given. Its truly unbelievable.
I can only hope they had tags and can go home to lay in peace in their towns and villages....Be at peace boys u earned it....No matter what side soldiers deserve great respect and should be repatriated and buried with honours.....
Thanks for this beautiful movie . On those Mountains my grandfather fought as well as many others , I do also live in that region and somehow for Us those Mountains are quite " holy" for the terrible events happened there last century . In the honor of Them , doing the best because It will never happen again . RIP
No it won't. Not to be glib but war is in the nature of man. We can fight it. But like a nasty divorce both sides have to want a peaceful resolution. When one side wants to fight the other must loose everything or pick up a big stick.
They do. I was in Tonale during my year of service, and one of our roles was to keep the Sanctuary clear from ice and snow. And from time to time, they add some retrieved remain, anonymous or not. It was my favourite place of silence and feeling. It's a powerful but also strong area in many senses. The best energy up there, at 2000 meters. God is absolutely ridiculously present
My great-grandfather fought in northern germany, when He got damaged at his had by a grenade, the soliders thougt He is dead. But He was still alive and walked with this grenade splinter in his head something like 200km...
I hope these brave men's remains can be identified, and then reinterred with the respect they deserve. Great clip - just sad, as it reflects both the stupidity and futility of war! R.I.P.
nope..actually the first picture is a three austria hungary soldiers that died during battle of punta linke in november 1918 when war is just a few days to end..they died cause of artillery fired..they are not soldier that holds gun but a medic army...they found in 2002 by Mierro Pienzi during his expedition..and this 3 warriors never indentified..they were buried at Piorie War Cemetary with full military honor even austria prime minister also came in that day..they was buried side by side an write as unknown warrior
@muizzudinmahayudin1737 Thank you for that post. That makes it even more soulful. Medics were there to help the injured/dead. But became victims of the worst war ever.
Come non piangere, vedendo i resti dei nostri antenati? Meritano tutti, anche i nemici, di essere seppelliti, di tornare a casa, così da poter essere ricordati da chi aspetta da più di 100 anni.
Fathers,Hasbands,Sons...lost in the mountains,no songs of valor for them,no poems of glory and heroism...The elements gave them the last hug...the last kiss...and the cold wind sings for them an eternal lullaby.I hope they got a proper burial...at least those who were found.
I do not know about the One of the movie , However there Is another One still there onto the peak of the Adamello Mountain at 3200 meters ( about) . Brought there by foot and hands by more than 200 Alpines climbing troops and Artillery gunmen . Our veterans still today look after that cannon , removing the rust and painting It in honor to those Who have lost Their lives there during WW1 . If I am not mistaking it was and still is the highest ever cannon installed and intensively used during WW1 .
glad to see sabaton making a song about these part of the front. Least we forget. "White Friday, I'll take the Stairway to heaven I'm sky high, when I die I'll be immortal Forever, I never I won't rеturn to Blood mountain, I am the Soldier of heavеn"
Every true Italian, has a grandfather who fought in the Alps. My two grandfathers too; One of them was a "bersagliere" and weeping each time he talked of war days
Hmm. Years ago I was an archaeologist. My feeling when dealing with the dead was always a very reverential "We've got you now. We honor you. We will return you to your loved ones if we can. Regardless, You are safe. Rest easy".
I have family in Germany, Italy, France, Austria, Switzerland, UK, Ireland, Australia, Russia, Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria and during both world wars most men were under arms and fought against each other... In 1942, a French cousin was at lunch when the maid came in a hurry and said " Monsieur, Monsieur il y a un officier boche qui vous demande " (a German officer is asking for you)... The cousin goes to the door and sees a German officer in great uniform and iron cross who asks " Are you Charles Pxxxx ? " Yes ! " Are you Charles Louis Pxxxx ? " Yes ! The officer takes my cousin in his arms and said " Ach... cousin... " Sad but true...
I know it's been 2 years, but I must say: most of these weren't even soldiers, they were farmers or factory workers the day before, and after a week or so of training they went to the frontlines. In Italy we say "quelli del '98" to refer to those who were born in 1898 and sent to the barely over 18. It's sad, but it was like this all over Europe at the time.
@@davideb.4290 exactly. People are so far from it now. They don't have a real clue. They were common people, just more used to mountain climbing then others. And most of all, in some cases they had to fight against people who was friends until the day before. Go tell your movie story somewhere else please.
Just came fomr 'soldier of heaven' I never thought of the alps. Or any war happening on the top of the world... It's depressing to now understand.. There's soldiers up there that aren't coming home.
WW1 and WW2 are basically the same war with a 20 year truce. The treaty of Versailles ensured that the war would begin again. It is called a world war because nearly every nation was involved. If they, the nations, were not actually involved in the fighting. They were supplying economic support to the combatants. Further down the comments someone said that South America were not involved. So giving war criminals safe conduct to live or pass through their countries, was an act of neutrality? Not all S. American countries did this, but a lot did.
Doc Furious I wouldn't say it's the same war, more like WW2 was the aftermath of what WW1 left. Germany went into a Great Depression after the war causing Hitler(who was drafted in the military during ww1 and was wounded)to resent the ally powers. Only reason it was so easy to persuade the German people with his word, they were desperate for change.
Some stuff I found. This is almost missing from WWII history, you have to go looking for it. Brazil, from 1942, participated in anti-submarine warfare in the South and Central Atlantic and; in July 1944 sent an Expeditionary Force of 25,000 army and air force personnel to the Italian campaign; -Allies of WW2. The South American countries were very hostile to the Axis in World War II and displayed it strongly, even though most did not send troops. Costa Rica declared war on Germany on December 4, 1941 days BEFORE Pearl Harbor (counting on the Monroe Doctrine. Mexico declared war in April 1942, Brazil in August 1942. Colombia authorized the creation of American bases anywhere on its soil. Brazil, Venezuela and the U.S. worked on joint defense plans for the shipment of bauxite (used in ironmaking) from Dutch Guyana (Surinam). Later, these included the shipment of Venezuelan oil and Brazilian foodstuffs. German submarines were a threat in the Caribbean and even the South Atlantic. Some 21 of the original 34 signatories of the (anti-Axis) United Nations were in the Americas.
And you are a spokesman for the thousands of Indians alive in those days? Manny Indians were proud of being in the British Empire and many fought in the Indian army. Your modernist point of view does not reflect the Indians of 100 years ago. Yes, colonialism is often bad and Britain often abused Indian, true, but those were different times and many Indians supported the motherland...as did Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Jamaica and South Africa (and the other African colonies).
I read american banks and British banks financed both sides and helped Hitler's rise to power. washingtonsblog.com/2012/07/big-banks-funded-the-nazis-and-launched-a-coup-against-the-president-of-the-united-states.html "American" companies like Ford profiteered from WWII and had plants in the USA and Germany. www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1445822/Ford-used-slave-labour-in-Nazi-German-plants.html
To have died in such an undignified and horrific way is unimaginable and to be buried without a grave perhaps with someone still waiting for you to get home without knowing you had already gone, nobody deserved that and it’s an absolute tragedy that it happened.
Very moving, but from a war strategy perspective I couldn't understand why any country would fight from the Italian Alps. Such an extreme hostile environment which is not easily accessible and makes fighting war next to near impossible. These poor men would have endured altitude sickness, frostbite, starvation, lack of ammunition and cover from the elements - and still manage to muster up the will to fight and defend. Torments me thinking about it, but sheer admiration to these brave men who gave up so much. Very moving, thank you.
The real kicker: Those soldiers are still up there, and they are likely to remain up there for centuries if not millennia as the elevation and cold keep them from decomposing. Thousands of nameless, unknown soldiers forever guarding the alps, never to return home or receive a proper burial.
This was pretty sad to see these young men on both sides die in a cold desolate place on top of the world and remain there for a century. I knew an old Italian gentleman who fought in WW I for the Italians up in these mountains. He said many of his comrades were lost forever by avalanche. These men may be some of his friends.
可憐無定河邊骨，仍是深閨夢裏人。Two verses from a Chinese poem, roughly meaning: pity that the bones lying along the banks of the Wuding River, may still be their men in dreams of those back home.
Kinda tough to watch. I can't imagine what these poor souls went thru just to end up where they're at. Every corps used to be an extremely motivated person.
So sad. My grandfather fought in the First World War as well for Austria-Hungary. He came back thankfully to make my father. He had medals he never wore and scars he couldn't leave off. So much grief over ideals and politics now as obsolete as the weapons they used.
Are two soldier of the Austria-Hungarian empire in ww1 alpine troops ( kaiserjager) not kill to Italian troops but from nature, this was a war on the dolomiti mountains 2700- 3600 meters, the real enemy for the Italian troops and Austrian troops was only nature and ice with more more snow, R.I.P. brothers++++Adamello glacier(Trento) Italy.
One of my greatgrandfathers was an austro-hungarian soldier fighting in the Alps. What my grandmother told me, that in 1918 all the Austrian soldiers were permanently hungry. After the Austria Hungary collapsed in autumn 1918, he went home to southeastern Moravia. Almost immediately he was called to arms and fight in the war for Slovakia against Hungary. Both wars he survived.
Sem Emming May be. Avalanches. Not necessarily man made of in purpose but they are natural occurrence. Atrillery might have helped too in that, of which there was lots of on that front
Artillery might have helped,The concussion from shelling no doubt made sure that natural avalanches were very rare on that front in WW1. I think I read somewhere where this was a tactic
My Nona was orphaned by the war, the Nuns took her in until her older brother could send for her. She was 12 years old, from a small village on the Austrian, and Italian border. How sad. And unnecessary.
Jerry Krause no they do not, you stupid fuck. The bodies ARE recovered where possible and given a decent burial. If anyone gets caught illegally collecting war relics they face heavy prison sentences, so shut up if you don’t know what you are talking about.
My grand-grand father had much better luck, he just migrated to Brazil in 1913, as 22 years old adventurous man! He scaped certain death in that front. My respects to all Austrians/Austrian-Hungarian who survived those heroes of WWI, a tragic adventure with Germany, which also resulted in the destruction of the A-H Empire.....
Actually WWI and WWII started because Germany wanted to. Kaiser Wilhelm II and Hitler. WWI, Austrians were more active and consequently responsible, but WWII they just had their President killed in order to annex Austria to Germany. The A-H Empire was very important strategically as a wall against islamic invasion and to counterbalance Russia Imperialism. Thanks for the link!
Yeah the video didn't show them hauling those cannons up 10,000 foot mountains,but they did . Regardless of the situation they did amazing things. TRUE BAD ASSES.
You are right, but not because of the missing rifling marks. The fuses are still in place in their nose, they did not go off. These are shrapnel shells, i.e. time fused flying shotguns.
Janos Varga I have found alot of artillery shells that had the fuze but are duds and were fired by evidence of the driving band marks but most of those were high explosive and I left them where they layed. I also have a few shrapnel shells like those in the video and 2 of them that the fuze detonated but didn't set off the black powder expelling charge under the lead balls. it blew the brass part of the fuze off one leaving the steel part of the fuze and another it blew off the entire fuze leaving the lead balls exposed but still packed tight inside.
Sorry if my comment appeared to be criticising. You are much better experienced in this, than I thought. My grandfather (back in the end of 60's) told about the shrapnels, how cruel they were; i also have one empty shell around. Since then i did not have the opportunity to study these bastards and just came across with them when visited few museums along the Isonzo front recently . Merely from technical aspects, it was an ingenious invention showing how artful the man's mind could be when it is about to kill the other.I've been wondering what the main charge was and you revealed that it was also BP. I just assume that those premature detonations of the central fuze tube might have been due to the fauling of the vent holes in the fuze assembly.
these once lifeless frozen bodies once had a soul, leaving their families, lovers, and their everyday life to serve their country. Only to either meet a bullet or freeze up in the mountains, never knowing that when they said their goodbyes, it'll be their last. lest we forget
Hey guys got some awesome/ interesting information. The band Sabaton just released a new song that is about the men who fought and died on the Alps. Very good I must say
Another example of how common people are allowed to die for the profit of the happy few. War is not the solution....its just to make rich people richer. Put the children of the richest ,. money makers of a war , in the frontline and see how quick wars would end....
friends of Oetzi who also got shot to death with an arrow 5300 years ago...and he never sees the writing on the wall...give Südtirol back to were it belongs...Austria. oldest German inscriptions in the churches about 1200... 800 years ago.
Mamma mia, impressionante! Viva gli Alpini, ragazzi giovanissimi, morti per un ideale, morti per l' Italia! Gloria ed eterno riposo ai morti di ogni nazione, morti in guerra. Pace a loro 🙏
This is why people making fun of the Italian soldiers or their Hapsburgs opponents 'efforts during the Great War should really reconsider their opinions and hide their head under the sand for the shame. Just try to spend almost 4 years on the top of the Alps in winter, summer and autumn, transporting supplies and heavy artillery by sheer strenght of yor arms, or by mule.Freezing in sub zero temperatures without proper winter clothing,and always with the risk of dying for rocks falling down after bombings or proper avalanches. Spending the night in caves excavated within the flanks of entire mountain ranges, hearing your enemy digging and chatting on the other side of a rocky wall, maybe while he makes ready to place explosive charges to make the tunnel you call barrack crumble upon your head. Charging machinegun posts UPHILL, without massive artillery support because of the risk of avalanches. The Italian front Does not get even half of the recognition it deserves in WW1, and yet under many aspects, it was as nightmarish, if not even more, as Its western or eastern counterparts.
The only way to understand that, is to walk those paths. I thank my father, who's now gone, to grow me in that world from very young age. He brought me and my mother on Adamello when I was 5 yo, and we had to hide below a big stone in a stones area, during a snowstorm. I remember it as if it was yesterday. My mother called him crazy for taking me there, but I do thank him deeply. We almost made it to the artillery piece on crests croce, but the path was blocked. Around the 90/91 s. We promised each other to go back later but we never did. He did bring me in many other similar places on the Alps, in the following years. Starting with ferratas at 9/10. Lately during the service year, I ended up in Adamello again. My dream was to get into special corps. Once there, between walking and climbing and feeling what's up there, I started understanding things and changed my mind. Now I hear people younger then me, speaking like they are ready to fight a war. I can tell them, leave the movies and videogames behind, or don't think it's even remotely the same. Most of the people that came back from 1st and 2nd ww never fully recovered. And they weren't idiots or cowards at all. I'm pretty sure any veteran can confirm you what I'm saying. Be greatful for what you have and don't take it for granted. Because it's not.
To be lost in a senseless war...how many families were left not knowing if their men were even given a proper burial?! These poor souls look like they were left where they fell!!!
Isn't it sad how nowadays, we find their corpses and think that it's sad, yet their dead bodies are often everything we remember of this conflict so many wanted to participate in ? Like, most men back then knew they might die, yet they went to war to solve it.
![[2023] WW1 relic hunting in the Somme's Battlefields](/img/n.gif)
I'm Italian and I had 2 great-grandparents who fought in the First World War, one was in the Bersaglieri and came back luckily while the other was a daring and he lost his life on the piave during an assault. Honor all the soldiers of the first war world real heroes.
ma il tuo nome utente dice sam winchester che non ti rende italiano
@@wira3359 It can be some fake name tho
My great-great-grandfather fought on Piave too, but on the other side for the Austrians... He was shot in the leg and in the stomach, both shots he survived.
We may be different by culture or anything, but still we all are humans. Make love, not war
Condolences from Czech republic..
No more brother wars!!!
@@daveware4117 unfortunately, as long as humans are around, war is inevitable
Crazy to think these people had a life and now they're just frozen in the ice, unidentifiable.
"unidentifiable"? You know that they wore dogtags, right?
I dont know but could DNA-identification work?
@rustytr , he/she is just expressing his own view
I think through dna testing if they recover bones they might be able to figure out whos who and maybe dog tags to but yeah its upseting ww1 was brutal to say the least
@@mazadancoseben4818 Ryan's probably not a SHE.
My great great grandfather was part of the Gebirgsjäger in the Austro-Hungarian army and fought the Italians in WW1 he survived the war and although I never met him my great grand mother would show me pictures and tell me story's of how they would have to climb 90 degree angle cliffs and hoist huge guns up them and they would walk over massive, bottom-less crevice's and if someone fell down one they wouldn’t even bother to help because he was either dead or there would be no way to get them out. Crazy how horrible war is.
In the alps?
Also im shure my great grandfather fought in the Austro-Hungarian army because he was hungarian but i dont know where and when
I won't be coming home
I won't be going anywhere
I will guard this post forever
Here on the Alpine slope, where I did my final stand I shall remain
Among the ice and snow that binds me to this mountain
A force of nature too strong, sent from above
Where spirits lead the way, the winds will never fade
White Friday, I'll take the
Stairway to heaven
I'm sky high, when I die
I'll be immortal
Forever, I never
I won't return to
Blood mountain, I am the
Soldier of heaven
I saw the end of war
I watched the soldiers come and go
And I kept my watch forever
So many brave men fell in the battles that were raging down below
I have seen it all but none will hear my story
All of these years I have been frozen in time
I cried for spring to come but here
Winter remain!
White Friday, I'll take the
Stairway to heaven
I'm sky high, when I die
I'll be immortal
Forever, I never
I won't return to
Blood mountain, I am the
Soldier of heaven
I always dreamed that I would, serve high above
Where spirits lead the way, the winds will never fade
White Friday, I'll take the
Stairway to heaven
I'm sky high, when I die
I'll be immortal
Forever, I never
I won't return to
Blood mountain, I am the
Soldier of heaven
White Friday, I'll take the
Stairway to heaven
I'm sky high, when I die
I'll be immortal
Forever, I never
I won't return to
Blood mountain, I am the
Soldier of heaven
("Soldier of Heaven" - Sabaton)
Nice
came here for this
It's all most too much to think those Men and boys have layed there for over One hundred years as the world moved on without them.
It must have taken a monumental effort to get that artillery piece up on that mountain
ua-cam.com/video/9HjzPWA7YSc/v-deo.html
@@francescomaporti1897 thank you very much for your reply. I'm fairly well versed on my history, but this is a part I don't know much about. Thanks again...
Cant even imagine
And that's why they didnt take it down with them I assume lol
yes truly incredible, not to mention that they did it in normal uniforms, no high tech gears like today!!
the father of my grandfather died there on the dolomiti mountains, during ww1 his body has never been found
mine too (( from Hungary
My great-grandfather fought in WW1. Im from Russia.
I hope one day your families will get your hero home.
My great grandpa fought in wwi as a US sapper and survived
Giacomo Baldon mine did fought here to but idk if he died or not
Honor to all this men, both Italians than Austro-Hungarian Soldiers, who bravery gave their life for their Country when it was asked. My great grandfather was an Ardita (an Arditi Soldier) who died during the Monte Grappa Offensive 🇮🇹
Yes, but if you ask them, they probably preferred to be back to their beloved ones, mother's or girlfriends/wife's.
As you know as I do, it's full of letters and songs, written back than.
Reality is not always like we portrait it, but it doesn't take away their sacrifice.
The donkeys were probably thinking "Oh, this is nice, if we haven't been forced into all sorts of nonsense throughout history already--now mankind wants to fight in the mountains, ice and cold to be frozen there permanently--well, right this way, gents. But watch your step."
I spent my first two years of military service in the 1.German Mountain Division, including basic training in winter time in the Bavarian Alps. We usually moved up to a level of 2000 meters. It sucked.
Thinking about how those guys with less advanced equipment, under artillery and infantry fire and up to 3000 meters must have suffered is beyond my imagination.
If you have to go to war, stay away from the mountains.
It just sucks.
damn
The clanking you hear is the sound of their ghostly steel balls.
Stay away from mountains in the army in general. My division (10th Mtn.) loses a few people every year in training. Wet sleeping bag and froze, slipped on a belay doing a descent, or just got lost in the snow, or any of a myriad of ways the mountains can kill you.
US Army?
@@pedrorocha4817 I'd assume the German Federal army, maybe the Gebirgsjäger
It's so sad. I never would die like this, who wants? The bodies of these young men have been lost 100 years ago and their relatives have never seen them. They died lost forever. Only for the madness of a bunch of men which have started a war and never fought.
Genius 👍 Very well said. War is stupid. I find the fact that anyone kills for beliefs (religion) or power and arrogance is very sickening. Every person is someone's son or daughter. No need to take someone else's family away from them.
It's the same old story that's been repeated over the ages. Humankind forgets the lessons history teaches all too quickly. It makes one wonder about the evils that man unleashes on his fellow man...and is there really something in our DNA that destines us to destroy ourselves. I live in the United States and I can still walk some of the Civil War battlefields close to my home and pick up items that still lay on top of the Earth. I can only imagine what it's like in Europe and Asia, being that the US is a relatively young nation. It gives some understanding of why Sabbath wrote "War Pigs."
@@Twitch_Moderator
😠👎 It's always about power and money! Arrogance and misplaced pride among the political leaders also played a major part in WW1, mainly because the leaders don't have to pay any price for their arrogance and pride! That's the "duty" of the regular people! The ONLY reason that Italy agreed to fight in WW1 for the allies, is because their leaders were promised to be paid in territory if the allies won! They may have fought on the other side if offered a better deal! 👹😈👺
@@Twitch_Moderator well, go to heaven then
@@Twitch_Moderator that’s fucking retarded what you just said war is very necessary sometimes same with killing people
They fought wherever they made eye contact, desert, snow, mountains, woods, villages/citys... So much blood shed. The world needs more love.
UND WARUM,FÜR WEN,WELCHE INTERRESSEN😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢
I totally agree 😢
RIP Soldiers, Friend and Foe!
Are they really foes or just un willing and forced adversaries?
@@gerrygwag not really forced just more or less often like the British harassed into joining
For those men that died and got frozen in time on the front, the war never really ended. Its rather sad.
I’m so glad some of these boys are finally coming home. It’s been long enough, may they rest in peace at last.
Respect their duty
They fight for their country
More than 357 000 italian soldiers are wounded,die and even lost and never found during the war in alpine mountain
REST IN PEACE 🇮🇹
The number of Italian military killed in WWI is between 600.000 and 650.000 while the wounded are around 1.100.000 according to historical data.
Many men killed on the Italian front lost their lives to avalanches, both from natural slippage and man made avalanches. Absolutely horrible what these men went through
Mr. Provocative, true
If everyone questioned authority and followed their conscience no one would follow the drums of war.
Then what system do you think would work?
Dejen descansar en paz a los muertos, tambien fueron victimas de la barbarie humana !
Now they are soldiers of Heaven.
We call it La Guerra Bianca, The White War. My grandfhater and his 3 brothers fight in the Carso mountains. My g.f wounded permanently, one of brothers missing in action. Giampiero from Italy
good story
my grand father fight in the second world war in the blue division and was incorporated in the SS in 1944
Mauricio Alexis Espana.
+J P yes my grand father after my father go to argentina...
+General Spärde fuck u lmao Italians only tried to join the winning team they didn't know what they were doing
I just said a prayer while this music was playing and I can not explain to you the thoughts and feelings that went through me. How blessed we are, how much we have been given. Its truly unbelievable.
Me too, I always pray for them…😢
I can only hope they had tags and can go home to lay in peace in their towns and villages....Be at peace boys u earned it....No matter what side soldiers deserve great respect and should be repatriated and buried with honours.....
For example Austro-Hungarian soldiers had no dog tag. They had a tiny box or metallic crate looking like a necklace.
Theoretically,if the DNA in the skin isn't totally gone these soldiers could be identified and restored to the family
Thanks for this beautiful movie . On those Mountains my grandfather fought as well as many others , I do also live in that region and somehow for Us those Mountains are quite " holy" for the terrible events happened there last century . In the honor of Them , doing the best because It will never happen again . RIP
The worst thing : it happens again and again and again all over the world ! IT will never Stop......
No it won't. Not to be glib but war is in the nature of man. We can fight it. But like a nasty divorce both sides have to want a peaceful resolution. When one side wants to fight the other must loose everything or pick up a big stick.
“Your peace is violence against us”.
May those recovered finally be relieved of their duty and be given a proper burial.
They do.
I was in Tonale during my year of service, and one of our roles was to keep the Sanctuary clear from ice and snow.
And from time to time, they add some retrieved remain, anonymous or not.
It was my favourite place of silence and feeling.
It's a powerful but also strong area in many senses.
The best energy up there, at 2000 meters.
God is absolutely ridiculously present
🙏😔
My great-grandfather fought in northern germany, when He got damaged at his had by a grenade, the soliders thougt He is dead. But He was still alive and walked with this grenade splinter in his head something like 200km...
I hope these brave men's remains can be identified, and then reinterred with the respect they deserve. Great clip - just sad, as it reflects both the stupidity and futility of war! R.I.P.
nope..actually the first picture is a three austria hungary soldiers that died during battle of punta linke in november 1918 when war is just a few days to end..they died cause of artillery fired..they are not soldier that holds gun but a medic army...they found in 2002 by Mierro Pienzi during his expedition..and this 3 warriors never indentified..they were buried at Piorie War Cemetary with full military honor even austria prime minister also came in that day..they was buried side by side an write as unknown warrior
@muizzudinmahayudin1737 Thank you for that post. That makes it even more soulful. Medics were there to help the injured/dead. But became victims of the worst war ever.
Come non piangere, vedendo i resti dei nostri antenati? Meritano tutti, anche i nemici, di essere seppelliti, di tornare a casa, così da poter essere ricordati da chi aspetta da più di 100 anni.
Sto piangendo mentre leggo il tuo commento.
Grazie a loro ho deciso di cambiare percorso. Grazie ai loro spiriti intrappolati tra i ghiacci
Fathers,Hasbands,Sons...lost in the mountains,no songs of valor for them,no poems of glory and heroism...The elements gave them the last hug...the last kiss...and the cold wind sings for them an eternal lullaby.I hope they got a proper burial...at least those who were found.
"...no songs of valor for them..."
Sabaton solved this: "Soldier of Heaven".
They were given a full military funeral. And the Italian Premier attended it.
That cannon on the top still stands out proudly even after all these years of being long forgotten.
I do not know about the One of the movie , However there Is another One still there onto the peak of the Adamello Mountain at 3200 meters ( about) . Brought there by foot and hands by more than 200 Alpines climbing troops and Artillery gunmen . Our veterans still today look after that cannon , removing the rust and painting It in honor to those Who have lost Their lives there during WW1 . If I am not mistaking it was and still is the highest ever cannon installed and intensively used during WW1 .
I am guessing that soldiers in 1918 were like: "Fuck that, let just leave it there and go home."
@@buttersstotch7981 If They were so lucky to come back home...
the cannon on the mountain is located at cresta croce mountain
Not so forgotten 😊
glad to see sabaton making a song about these part of the front. Least we forget.
"White Friday, I'll take the
Stairway to heaven
I'm sky high, when I die
I'll be immortal
Forever, I never
I won't rеturn to
Blood mountain, I am the
Soldier of heavеn"
Darn you beat me by one hour. Did t even see your comment.
Yes I agree Sabaton is doing a phenomenal job at telling these stories
R.I.P respect from Finland Anne and Ilkka
Every true Italian, has a grandfather who fought in the Alps. My two grandfathers too; One of them was a "bersagliere" and weeping each time he talked of war days
Joshua Ngau Ajang the arditi, early Italian assault units, were comprised of volunteer infantry, alpine and bersaglieri
Yes my grandfather fought for the king of italy in ww2 and his father fought in the mountains in ww1..both from the province of Udine.
Great work! Thank you. So many lost lives. A real statement of the truth of war.
Hmm. Years ago I was an archaeologist. My feeling when dealing with the dead was always a very reverential "We've got you now. We honor you. We will return you to your loved ones if we can. Regardless, You are safe. Rest easy".
I have family in Germany, Italy, France, Austria, Switzerland, UK, Ireland, Australia, Russia, Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria and during both world wars most men were under arms and fought against each other...
In 1942, a French cousin was at lunch when the maid came in a hurry and said " Monsieur, Monsieur il y a un officier boche qui vous demande " (a German officer is asking for you)...
The cousin goes to the door and sees a German officer in great uniform and iron cross who asks
" Are you Charles Pxxxx ? "
Yes !
" Are you Charles Louis Pxxxx ? "
Yes !
The officer takes my cousin in his arms and said
" Ach... cousin... "
Sad but true...
I’ve been really interested in anything ww1 lately. I want to learn so much more about it.
Thank you for the video.
White Friday 1916 10,000+ soldiers died in an avalanche. Prayers for their souls.
Poor guys 😢😢
my grandfather fought there for the Italian army and told many stories. I have his army cap.
All those well preserved live unexploded artillery shells. Very dangerous! Those rounds are just as live as they were back then.
History, written in ice; so many life, so many fates; thanks jmantime!
It is not good to write history in ice. Global warning will destroy icy history.
Jerry Krause do you believe man is manipulating the weather or simply causing this "warming" accidentally?
Tommy. I do not know how the weather could be effectively manipulated. The only places you will find that being asserted are mental websites.
A soldier is trained to fight and defend his country, his platoon, his fire team. Gone and never forgotten
littlefarmer32 in this case they were forgotten
Totenkopf kang Not their deeds, brother.
I know it's been 2 years, but I must say: most of these weren't even soldiers, they were farmers or factory workers the day before, and after a week or so of training they went to the frontlines.
In Italy we say "quelli del '98" to refer to those who were born in 1898 and sent to the barely over 18.
It's sad, but it was like this all over Europe at the time.
@@davideb.4290 exactly. People are so far from it now.
They don't have a real clue.
They were common people, just more used to mountain climbing then others.
And most of all, in some cases they had to fight against people who was friends until the day before.
Go tell your movie story somewhere else please.
Just came fomr 'soldier of heaven'
I never thought of the alps. Or any war happening on the top of the world... It's depressing to now understand.. There's soldiers up there that aren't coming home.
Some of these brave heroes may not be finally going home to be buried with the dignity they deserve. May they now rest in peace.
How surreal... do you think any of these men could even comprehend that we would watch this video of them a century later? May you all rest in peace.
Very few, if any
WW1 and WW2 are basically the same war with a 20 year truce. The treaty of Versailles ensured that the war would begin again. It is called a world war because nearly every nation was involved. If they, the nations, were not actually involved in the fighting. They were supplying economic support to the combatants. Further down the comments someone said that South America were not involved. So giving war criminals safe conduct to live or pass through their countries, was an act of neutrality? Not all S. American countries did this, but a lot did.
Doc Furious I wouldn't say it's the same war, more like WW2 was the aftermath of what WW1 left. Germany went into a Great Depression after the war causing Hitler(who was drafted in the military during ww1 and was wounded)to resent the ally powers. Only reason it was so easy to persuade the German people with his word, they were desperate for change.
Some stuff I found. This is almost missing from WWII history, you have to go looking for it.
Brazil, from 1942, participated in anti-submarine warfare in the South and Central Atlantic and; in July 1944 sent an Expeditionary Force of 25,000 army and air force personnel to the Italian campaign;
-Allies of WW2.
The South American countries were very hostile to the Axis in World War II and displayed it strongly, even though most did not send troops.
Costa Rica declared war on Germany on December 4, 1941 days BEFORE Pearl Harbor (counting on the Monroe Doctrine. Mexico declared war in April 1942, Brazil in August 1942. Colombia authorized the creation of American bases anywhere on its soil. Brazil, Venezuela and the U.S. worked on joint defense plans for the shipment of bauxite (used in ironmaking) from Dutch Guyana (Surinam). Later, these included the shipment of Venezuelan oil and Brazilian foodstuffs. German submarines were a threat in the Caribbean and even the South Atlantic.
Some 21 of the original 34 signatories of the (anti-Axis) United Nations were in the Americas.
But my country India was not interested in both WW's, but was dragged by britishers for manpower & material support.
And you are a spokesman for the thousands of Indians alive in those days? Manny Indians were proud of being in the British Empire and many fought in the Indian army. Your modernist point of view does not reflect the Indians of 100 years ago. Yes, colonialism is often bad and Britain often abused Indian, true, but those were different times and many Indians supported the motherland...as did Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Jamaica and South Africa (and the other African colonies).
I read american banks and British banks financed both sides and helped Hitler's rise to power.
washingtonsblog.com/2012/07/big-banks-funded-the-nazis-and-launched-a-coup-against-the-president-of-the-united-states.html
"American" companies like Ford profiteered from WWII and had plants in the USA and Germany.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1445822/Ford-used-slave-labour-in-Nazi-German-plants.html
"All gave some, some gave all"
Some gave all for the few $$$$$.
Pfsif disrespect
Grandfather fought on that front in WWW1. It was something he would rarely ever talk about .
Frank B ahhhh the great wars of WWW1. The World Wide Web 1 wars....... #neverforget
My grandfather fought on this front. Luckily all he lost was a few of his toes.
To have died in such an undignified and horrific way is unimaginable and to be buried without a grave perhaps with someone still waiting for you to get home without knowing you had already gone, nobody deserved that and it’s an absolute tragedy that it happened.
Very moving, but from a war strategy perspective I couldn't understand why any country would fight from the Italian Alps. Such an extreme hostile environment which is not easily accessible and makes fighting war next to near impossible. These poor men would have endured altitude sickness, frostbite, starvation, lack of ammunition and cover from the elements - and still manage to muster up the will to fight and defend. Torments me thinking about it, but sheer admiration to these brave men who gave up so much. Very moving, thank you.
The real kicker:
Those soldiers are still up there, and they are likely to remain up there for centuries if not millennia as the elevation and cold keep them from decomposing.
Thousands of nameless, unknown soldiers forever guarding the alps, never to return home or receive a proper burial.
This was pretty sad to see these young men on both sides die in a cold desolate place on top of the world and remain there for a century. I knew an old Italian gentleman who fought in WW I for the Italians up in these mountains. He said many of his comrades were lost forever by avalanche. These men may be some of his friends.
可憐無定河邊骨，仍是深閨夢裏人。Two verses from a Chinese poem, roughly meaning: pity that the bones lying along the banks of the Wuding River, may still be their men in dreams of those back home.
i am a huge fan of your videos. thank you for the effort you have made to make them. best wishes.
Kinda tough to watch. I can't imagine what these poor souls went thru just to end up where they're at. Every corps used to be an extremely motivated person.
So sad. My grandfather fought in the First World War as well for Austria-Hungary. He came back thankfully to make my father. He had medals he never wore and scars he couldn't leave off. So much grief over ideals and politics now as obsolete as the weapons they used.
Are two soldier of the Austria-Hungarian empire in ww1 alpine troops ( kaiserjager) not kill to Italian troops but from nature, this was a war on the dolomiti mountains 2700- 3600 meters, the real enemy for the Italian troops and Austrian troops was only nature and ice with more more snow, R.I.P. brothers++++Adamello glacier(Trento) Italy.
Sie haben es verdient das man ihnen Gedenkt !Egal an welcher Seite der Front Sie Gedient hatten.
May God bless them all.
Many of these men were killed by rock fragments blasted away by the exploding shells. So sad, but they died long ago,
By bayonets
White friday. Soldiers of heaven now!
What you are looking at was a young man, a son, a father, a brother in the prime of his life. Peace is such a better idea.
came hier from the Sabaton song that is coming out. anyone els to? may they rest in
peace....
White friday i take the Stairway to heaven. From skyhigh when i die i'll be immortal!
Yeah
It saddens and angers me these brave men died so horribly for a world that is just not worth it now. I will remember them 🙏💞🙏
At least they finally get to go home hopefully to see their families before being laid to rest. RIP
One of my greatgrandfathers was an austro-hungarian soldier fighting in the Alps. What my grandmother told me, that in 1918 all the Austrian soldiers were permanently hungry. After the Austria Hungary collapsed in autumn 1918, he went home to southeastern Moravia. Almost immediately he was called to arms and fight in the war for Slovakia against Hungary. Both wars he survived.
it is a horrible death
thats not how the died
Sem Emming May be. Avalanches. Not necessarily man made of in purpose but they are natural occurrence. Atrillery might have helped too in that, of which there was lots of on that front
Artillery might have helped,The concussion from shelling no doubt made sure that natural avalanches were very rare on that front in WW1. I think I read somewhere where this was a tactic
Rio Grande do Sul Ball that's why peace is cool
Rio Grande do Sul Ball
Actually freezing to death is one of the peaceful ways to die. Many worse ways to die in that war.
I hope those young men are being recovered.
My Nona was orphaned by the war, the Nuns took her in until her older brother could send for her. She was 12 years old, from a small village on the Austrian, and Italian border. How sad. And unnecessary.
It would be great to do a follow up on who these guys were after identification. Crocodile Tears' channel is good at that.
when they find these bodies do they take them down the mountain for possible ID and a proper burial?
They sell the bits to weirdo warfans.
Jerry Krause no they do not, you stupid fuck. The bodies ARE recovered where possible and given a decent burial. If anyone gets caught illegally collecting war relics they face heavy prison sentences, so shut up if you don’t know what you are talking about.
They say let's give em a proper burial, then they kick some snow on them.
M F Who hurt you?
Sam Starr is a douche
My grand-grand father had much better luck, he just migrated to Brazil in 1913, as 22 years old adventurous man! He scaped certain death in that front. My respects to all Austrians/Austrian-Hungarian who survived those heroes of WWI, a tragic adventure with Germany, which also resulted in the destruction of the A-H Empire.....
Actually WWI and WWII started because Germany wanted to. Kaiser Wilhelm II and Hitler. WWI, Austrians were more active and consequently responsible, but WWII they just had their President killed in order to annex Austria to Germany. The A-H Empire was very important strategically as a wall against islamic invasion and to counterbalance Russia Imperialism. Thanks for the link!
I am not disrespecting anyone, I am just talking about A-H Empire because I am a descendent.
My native language as a Brazilian is Portuguese, and because I've lived many years in the US is also know English. Unfortunately, I don't know German.
By the way, another curiosity, I had the privilege to talk to a French WWI veteran in 1980, inside the Musée des Invalides in Paris!
These stories are our treasure and honor! Thanks for the chat!
Yeah the video didn't show them hauling those cannons up 10,000 foot mountains,but they did . Regardless of the situation they did amazing things. TRUE BAD ASSES.
those artillery shells were not fired. they have no rifling marks on the driving bands
You are right, but not because of the missing rifling marks. The fuses are still in place in their nose, they did not go off. These are shrapnel shells, i.e. time fused flying shotguns.
Janos Varga I have found alot of artillery shells that had the fuze but are duds and were fired by evidence of the driving band marks but most of those were high explosive and I left them where they layed. I also have a few shrapnel shells like those in the video and 2 of them that the fuze detonated but didn't set off the black powder expelling charge under the lead balls. it blew the brass part of the fuze off one leaving the steel part of the fuze and another it blew off the entire fuze leaving the lead balls exposed but still packed tight inside.
Sorry if my comment appeared to be criticising. You are much better experienced in this, than I thought. My grandfather (back in the end of 60's) told about the shrapnels, how cruel they were; i also have one empty shell around. Since then i did not have the opportunity to study these bastards and just came across with them when visited few museums along the Isonzo front recently . Merely from technical aspects, it was an ingenious invention showing how artful the man's mind could be when it is about to kill the other.I've been wondering what the main charge was and you revealed that it was also BP. I just assume that those premature detonations of the central fuze tube might have been due to the fauling of the vent holes in the fuze assembly.
I wanna hit one with a hammer☠️
Sam Starr u do that while we call ur family with the sad news that u will be coming home in a bucket, 😀
these once lifeless frozen bodies once had a soul, leaving their families, lovers, and their everyday life to serve their country. Only to either meet a bullet or freeze up in the mountains, never knowing that when they said their goodbyes, it'll be their last.
lest we forget
Veterans..........unknown soldiers..........sons.........fathers............WWI was a great case of utter waste! Read the poem. " The General"
Never give away the gift of life for a politician’s war.
Exactly. That's their message.
ONORE e PACE ai nostri ragazzi che hanno dato la vita x il nostro paese!!! W GLI ALPINI!!!
Hey guys got some awesome/ interesting information. The band Sabaton just released a new song that is about the men who fought and died on the Alps. Very good I must say
It all could've been avoided
Just by going down the right street
That's not a bad comment but big conflagration was likely between the Great Powers and had been building for some time.
CT-5597 Jesse
Yeah. Sometimes, History can change so radically because of such mundane, common things.
Ferdinand's car?
Incredible. Amazing. And all for what? To what ends? I guess it's all part of our journey.
Another example of how common people are allowed to die for the profit of the happy few.
War is not the solution....its just to make rich people richer.
Put the children of the richest ,. money makers of a war , in the frontline and see how quick wars would end....
Totally agree
Heroes and victims alike.
RIP might we never forget them.
friends of Oetzi who also got shot to death with an arrow 5300 years ago...and he never sees the writing on the wall...give Südtirol back to were it belongs...Austria. oldest German inscriptions in the churches about 1200... 800 years ago.
RIP to all the brave men who fought and died in the alpine front o7
Mamma mia, impressionante! Viva gli Alpini, ragazzi giovanissimi, morti per un ideale, morti per l' Italia! Gloria ed eterno riposo ai morti di ogni nazione, morti in guerra. Pace a loro 🙏
This is why people making fun of the Italian soldiers or their Hapsburgs opponents 'efforts during the Great War should really reconsider their opinions and hide their head under the sand for the shame. Just try to spend almost 4 years on the top of the Alps in winter, summer and autumn, transporting supplies and heavy artillery by sheer strenght of yor arms, or by mule.Freezing in sub zero temperatures without proper winter clothing,and always with the risk of dying for rocks falling down after bombings or proper avalanches. Spending the night in caves excavated within the flanks of entire mountain ranges, hearing your enemy digging and chatting on the other side of a rocky wall, maybe while he makes ready to place explosive charges to make the tunnel you call barrack crumble upon your head. Charging machinegun posts UPHILL, without massive artillery support because of the risk of avalanches. The Italian front Does not get even half of the recognition it deserves in WW1, and yet under many aspects, it was as nightmarish, if not even more, as Its western or eastern counterparts.
The only way to understand that, is to walk those paths.
I thank my father, who's now gone, to grow me in that world from very young age.
He brought me and my mother on Adamello when I was 5 yo, and we had to hide below a big stone in a stones area, during a snowstorm.
I remember it as if it was yesterday.
My mother called him crazy for taking me there, but I do thank him deeply.
We almost made it to the artillery piece on crests croce, but the path was blocked. Around the 90/91 s.
We promised each other to go back later but we never did.
He did bring me in many other similar places on the Alps, in the following years.
Starting with ferratas at 9/10.
Lately during the service year, I ended up in Adamello again.
My dream was to get into special corps.
Once there, between walking and climbing and feeling what's up there, I started understanding things and changed my mind.
Now I hear people younger then me, speaking like they are ready to fight a war.
I can tell them, leave the movies and videogames behind, or don't think it's even remotely the same.
Most of the people that came back from 1st and 2nd ww never fully recovered.
And they weren't idiots or cowards at all.
I'm pretty sure any veteran can confirm you what I'm saying.
Be greatful for what you have and don't take it for granted.
Because it's not.
Someone’s son, loved by a mother. What a waste.
90% of our songs are about that. The mothers or the beloved ones at home.
From both perspectives...
You got the point, good.
Thank you
Everyone give this guy more subs he really fucking deserves it
1 John 5:19「We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.」
To be lost in a senseless war...how many families were left not knowing if their men were even given a proper burial?! These poor souls look like they were left where they fell!!!
Onore a voi soldati italiani .R.I.P
Isn't it sad how nowadays, we find their corpses and think that it's sad, yet their dead bodies are often everything we remember of this conflict so many wanted to participate in ?
Like, most men back then knew they might die, yet they went to war to solve it.
RIP
Soldiers!
Very sad but thank you to the people that recover the bodies so they can be given a proper burial. RIP.
This is so sad 😥
This is a very sad video, RIP all those who died there.
Fighting for the Routhchild Bank
Lost but not forgotten
R.I.P.
Respect to all who served and gave their lives for their country.
Soldiers of Heaven
Very sad
I had family in that war and I just can't imagine what they all went through ❤️💔
Relics. No apostrophe.
When rich people argue, they send poor people to fight each other. Same today as it always was.