The thing I love about Ray ( aside from the in-depth, deep-dive reviews every video ) is that he talks FAST. As a guy who listens to audiobooks at 1.5x speed, his cadence is perfect. I hope this doesn't come across as unintentional shade.
Always love your deep dive Ray... I hope Garmin read these comments, I am firmly a Garmin man, I have shit loads of Garmin stuff, bike computers, watches, Golf Range finders and I love the Neo, I bought the OG and currently have the 2T, but when a hard core Garmin fan boy like me looks at this and goes... Nah, I'll buy a Kickr when i comes time to replace my 2T they need to sit up and listen, one thing you do not do, drive away your fan boys/girls, Garmin, listen to Ray's final thoughts, he isn't the only one thinking this, and if you believe the ERG Mode is enough of a sell, you are mistaken
Isn't another big selling point of the Tacx over the Kickr's not having to worry about drive belt? Not fanboying...as I still dont know if I will upgrade my Saris H3 to a Neo 2t, Neo 3m, or a Kickr V6
I will have to recommend Wahoo support. My Wahoo trainer started making terrible noises a few years ago. It was about a month after the warranty had expired. I called them and asked if I could buy the parts needed to fix it. Instead, they replaced it for free and it has worked perfectly ever since. I also like Garmin. They replaced out of warranty computers for a reasonable fee. I plan to buy one of these in the near future, but I haven’t decided yet.
Excellent assessment! You can't go wrong with either product but I do wish my kickr move had the downhill inertia capability... sounds like a more realistic approach
I bought the Move a month ago (also thanks to your review) and I don't regret it (and this comparison is not affecting my decision; I would pick up the move again). I love the Move. It was extremely easy to set up (it was my very first trainer, very first timing changing the cassette, etc., so no previous experience with such technicalities and everything went smoothly), it is very fun to use, it doesn't take much space (huge plus for me as I live in a flat). Fun fact: in Poland most of the bike fitters use wahoo trainers and climbers for fitting the bikes. Not sure if I've ever seen any tacx at bike fitting studios (even though garmin watches, computers, etc. are the most popular ones)
I never loved Tacx Neo 2T and sold it to buy Kickr Move and haven't regretted it for a second. The ride feeling on the Kickr Move is superior compared to the Neo 2T. Congrats on your Kickr Move!
But allow me one question: is the sideways tilt on the Tacx Neo not a bit more "comfortable" and bigger? I read this several times. Greetings!@@Mzkysti
Another great video Ray. I will say, I am a huge Garmin fan. A large portion of my bike gear is garmin (Computer, HRM, radar etc) That said, I have always felt that Wahoo did a better job on trainers and with this latest release of the Tacx, I think that still remains the case. I won't be retiring my Kickr anytime soon.
I am a Garmin fan and I was looking to buy my first Garmin trainer. But I am not happy about the pricing from Garmin. Everything from Garmin is expensive. Whahoo has much better pricing and now I decided to go for the whahoo trainer. I will save some 400 euro's to take the family out or upgrade my summer bike to 12 speed.
the next frontier for trainers is virtual shifting - let see who gets there with their top of the line product :) I have Neo2T obviously not upgrading anytime soon
I have a Neo 2T. I wouldn't buy a new trainer that doesn't have virtual gearing. The ability to put any bike in it without swapping cassettes is too much of a draw
Crazy that these are just getting movement...my old Kurt Kinetic Rock n roll...was amazing such a shame they never got smart trainer done right...only used a handful of dumb trainers but that was easily the best...
I hit the like button because i found this video really damn long. Thanks for the detailed review. While I am not in the market for a new trainer for the moment, that time will come.
Garmin could increase their sales substantially if they’d get more competitive with their pricing for similar features. For now, it seems they’re ok with their perception of their customers being “money is no object.”
Wahoo wins, purely on price. The asking price of the 3M is just absurd. Other than the the biggest point is the rocker plates. From multiple perspectives. 1)Reliability, since they are built in as a moving part into the trainer that makes it prone to reliability issues down the line and hurts resale values. Both take approaches to this differently so we will have to wait and see. 2)It is still a rocker function which is a plus over a more expensive indoor smart trainer bike. Which both accomplish differently. 3)A rocker plate attachment would be better compared to having to built in for maintenance reasons.
About Wahoo, there is a info on their website that some of the bikes won't fit 100% and there is a chance of a frame damage. BUT, they also provide for free adapters to fit those frames.
Thanks as always Ray. I know it's an applesc& oranges comparison, but I've had nothing but excellent support from Wahoo, including Kickr Core, Kickr Climb, Tickr, Bolt v1 and Roam v2. Still +10 days on response from Garmin on Epix Gen2. As I'm not in the high end market for trainers, I'm ecstatic about the new Kickr Core pricing. Read in depth review. Always astonished at the thoroughness and readability. Thanks for keeping us informed.
The Neo’s axle height isn’t adjustable either, that is a nice feature to have on the Kickr V6/Move. Also, that Neo is massssssive compared to the Move.
@@grobbosixtyone nah mate still going strong. No issues actually. Just considering an upgrade finally as run a road disc bike now and not keen on forcing the rear triangle apart with the spacer to stop the brake rub against the Neo
I figure we are pretty lucky at this point if using these is your thing. They both seem really impressive. I will say I crashed and broke my Garmin watch. My fault, not a defect. Garmin customer service sent me a brand new watch. I haven't forgotten, and I just paid a handsome premium for a gift to get a Garmin product. Other companies, possibly even Wahoo, could learn why customer service matters.
Wondering how elite will respond. Elite usually. Takes it time but answers very well. And I doubt Elite will support warranty claims to elite rizer if used with garmin equipment.
I’m probably going to buy a Neo3M down the road but am very curious about the potential fit issues. Sounds like it will fit most after the initial struggle to mount your bike but the tolerances are scary close. Probably a good time for a new trainer recommendation guide Ray 😉
One thing I've asked before but am still perplexed by. Wahoo introduced an electromagnetic resistance unit on their Kickr bike but have not translated this into a Neo-like rear-wheel trainer. I sort of expected the v5 Kickr to have this unit, then they continued as they were with the v6 with new features. So why have Wahoo not produced a rear wheel trainer with the Neo features such as road feel and downhill? I also wonder if Wahoo will look at the Erg mode responsiveness - GPlama detailed it well, and bring out some new firmware to level that playing field. With you on the Neo pricing and wifi add-on. Bundle it in at a similar price point to the Kickr and I'd really have to think hard when I upgrade from the v4 Kickr. As it is really the Neo is $2100+.
Can you elaborate a bit more in the differences in hill simulation between the two devices? I'm currently on a Tacx genuis with a subscription on their app and I like a video assisted ride more than something like zwift. However most of their videos are mountain stages with hills > 10%. The specs for the genius is 2000W / 20% so they not so far off from these new trainers however as an heavier ride (100kg) with 3.5-4W/kg my speed in those video's will be low and the power is above what the trainer can simulate and results in abnormal/abrupt movement that can cause muscle rupture. Neither Garmin or Wahoo seems to give this kind of information (or how the hill % is obtained in their specs) so would these newer trainers be an improvement?
Can you comment on the comfort of these two trainers vs buying something like a rocker plate for a Kickr Core? Basically, I don’t care about realism, and care more about improving comfort to do longer workouts. Is it worth spending $1600 on the Kickr Move, or will I get just as much comfort with a $400 rocker plate added to my Kickr Core?
Ray, who makes your lovely orange Apple Watch band? It’s slimmer than Apple’s own Ocean band, but still matches the Ultra orange watch buttons well, and has extra holes for ventilation during workouts. Nice find, if it also feels high quality! I’d like to buy one, will you please share what the band is? 😊🍊⌚️
Wahoo WiFi does not work for 5ghz which I found out last week when I got my Kickr v6 after 1 hour I found it on your review you should have said that here. One thing with a number of dealings with Garmin support UK for replacing Neo 2t and vector power pedals out of warranty they were amazing dealt with it quickly and free of charge, highest regard for them. I really like the movement on my Kickr v6 I found it moves just right for me sitting or standing it made all the difference to the ride on Zwift for me I would not worry about having more movement myself.
Both the NEO 3M (or more specifically, the Tacx WiFI adapter), and the Wahoo KICKR WiFi are limited to 5ghz. But practically speaking, I haven't seen that be an actual issue anywhere unless you've specifically shut off the 2.4Ghz side of your network.
@@DcrainmakerI’m confused. Which does it use? 2.4ghz or 5ghz? 2.4ghz is a bummer as it has less channels therefore more chance of local older wifi networks in your vicinity also on 2.4ghz band interfering with your signal
@@Dcrainmaker Unless a router is setup to receive mixed bands it will be setup to the band it set itself up to if that is 5 Ghz it will not connect to 2.4 Ghz . If you go into router setup and disable 5 Ghz you can connect to 2.4 Ghz then reconnect 5 Ghz or it may be possible to add mixed receiving of 2.4 & 5 Ghz depending on router but this will mean time and knowledge to set this up.
Which out of the two is the most reliable and durable? I'd rather not deal with any warranty issues and just have a dependable smart trainer especially for such a high price point.
Ray, what does the Tacx Neo 3M have over the Tacx Neo 2T other than the add-on Move feature and the handle? The sale price of the 2T is $900 USD? Thanks for your review.
I guess they do not include a 12s cassette, with hardly any 12s system being cross compatible. SRAM, Shi and Campa do not work with each others cassettes (at least not well) and then there is 12s MTB/ Gravel, which is not compatible yet again. All of that was a lot easier with 11s. Just my two cents.
A great review. I love it how Ray just says it the way it is, without fear or favour from these big manufacturers. I currently have a Neo 2, which I chose after getting the opportunity to personly test a Kickr as well as all the reviews online. Don't get me wrong, the Kickr is an excellent product but in my view, ultimately the downhill drive and road surface simulation clinches it: price aside the Neo is (or was back then) a better trainer. But I have been eagerly waiting on the Neo 3, as I'd like an upgrade over the next year or so. My impression after this review is that the situation is the same: price aside (and if your bike fits on it ok), the Neo is better from a technical stand point. But Ray is right. Garmin need to get real with their pricing.....I think they'll struggle to sell the Neo 3 after the initial flurry of Neo die-hards with big wallets. Hopefully they'll need to discount it down the track... that's when I might buy. Otherwise, a Kickr V6 move for my birthday next year I think!!
"the Neo is better from a technical stand point" is basically only thing Neo is better, Kickr is just superior smart trainer with it's ride feeling and usability.
Great review! But of course we all know tooo well that Garmin will NOT lower their price to their customers! Why? They are not interested in doing so, plain and simple which tell us a lot of the Garmin mentality and it definitely isn't admirable! For all you newcomers looking to get one of these, my choice is by far the WAHOO KICKR MOVE!!
Like all newly released objects, they need at least a year of running in to see if structural problems arise, such as those that afflicted the previous Tacx neo model. That the wi-fi module is external is an insult.
I’ve got a Tacx Neo 2t with the motion plates. The 3m doesn’t seem all that different. The handle at the top isn’t a deal breaker but might be nice. Both trainers seem absolutely superb, but then I really like my 2t and probably wouldn’t notice the difference between any of them. At the top end I expect they are all pretty much of a muchness. Love the videos so thanks for doing them.
Does your 2T vary power by up to 40w in erg mode? I just got one as an upgrade from a wheel on trainer and even trying my hardest I can’t stop swaying 20w either side of the set point, for a very consistent cadence 😢
Thanks so much for the response. I’ve raised it with support and sent a workout to them, hopefully they can either tell me it is me, or help fix the trainer haha
An important difference between these two models is that the Wahoo is belt driven while the Tacx 3M is not. Do you think this makes any real difference (e.g. cobble simulation, accuracy).
Hi Ray, with these forward and backward moving trainers, how does the Kickr Climb / Elite Riser deal with the movement of the bike? It seems like they would just start tilting back and forth. That Elite Riser looks very sturdy - it seems to me that would put stress on the fork/head tube area of the bike
With CLIMB they have a rubber “boot” that fits on the base that allows rocking. For Elite Rizer, some people say it still works as it has enough flex, I don’t have one handy to try.
I'm releasing my own trainer also. It's going to come with a 9 speed cassette. No options for anything higher. Additional gears is a passing fad. I'll wait it out thank you very much.
I hope you’re working on a review / comparison, Insta360 Ace Pro with GoPro 12. It’s not perfect but it may possibly dethrone GoPro, at least for MTBing.
I wonder if Garmin fixed their connectivity issues. I had the neo tacx 2t and the kickr move. The kickr just works no connection issues. The tacx neo 2t had constant connection issues. Since it doesn't appear that Garmin made any changes to the connection setup on the 3m I'd recommend the kickr move.
@@Dcrainmaker if it s a new chipset then hopefully that addressed the issue. But for the neo 2t a quick Google search about connectivity issues shows it was a real problem.
Thanks for the great comparison! Any thoughts about how do these compare to stationary bikes? I am considering either one of these trainers or stationary bikes, but I am not sure due to the lack of movement on stationary bike.
I have a Stages SB20 and I love it! BUT, it can be brutal on long (2+ hr) rides. That said, TurboRocks does make a rocker plate for it that I plan on getting after the holidays.
One man’s “huge” is another man’s “durability” and “stability.” I think the Neo looks MUCH better than the wahoo, which looks cheap to me (i.e.- the legs are the same metal tube you get with cheap trainers.
And I can't stand how TALL the Neo series is compared to the Kickr's. The fact that they always required a front wheel riser for 700c road bikes makes no sense when you see the lower height of the Kickr's. When Neos add the Motion Plate action, the get even TALLER. Just plain makes mounting and dismounting more of a hassle. People would likely benefit from a center stand to get on/off.
@@Chader9 I agree on tallness in general, that said in terms of the front wheel block - a lot of people actually still prefer them (including myself). Even when I ride a KICKR (pre-move) I preferred a front wheel block so the handelbars stay straight.
@@Dcrainmaker Yeah, I can see that as a preference and the front would gain a bit of height, but unless it was a rather tall one (and the rider chose to use a higher Kickr axle height too), it's still a lower setup than the Neo in the stock config.
This is the second time I’ve heard you mention about Saris trainers being dethroned for ERG performance. As someone that only does structured workouts indoors, have you got another video covering this? Looking to replace my failing Flux 2.
@@Dcrainmaker sorry, I watched your 3M review - while it sounds perfect, it’s too pricey for my indoor workouts. I was asking about the Saris being the previous king of ERG
Well, the Tacx neo is the only true direct drive trainer, others are belt driven. This gives him enormous advantage with road feel, downhill and of course precision. Even though it's expensive, the price difference is justified, I would even say wahoo is overpriced because it's just now way it costs so much to manufacture, unlike tacx with its huge and complicated motor.
In the trainer world, direct drive refers to the fact that the rear wheel is removed, thus the chain is directly driving the cassette of the trainer. Which is different from the car world. It’s been that way for over 15 years now.
Thank you for the detailed review. I have thoroughly enjoyed every minute of it. 3 years ago when I started cycling I was so against indoor trainers. However things have changed and now the time has come. In my local market here in Dubai, UAE. the Garmin is around 2790 USD. While the Kickr move is around 1738 USD. A 1000 USD difference is huge ! makes my choice towards the Wahoo Kickr the easiest and most obvious one..
So can Wahoo improve their ERG performance with a software upgrade? I'm frustrated by how the Kickr doesn't always restart ERG mode if I stop turning the cranks during a structured workout.
In theory, maybe, in practice, unlikely with the current motor (without oversmoothing it). My guess is that much of Tacx's ability here comes from the massive no power control system in the NEO 3M, rather than the magnet side of things.
@@DcrainmakerDoes that mean TACX/Garmin have fixed the issue with ERG not working properly on Neo’s? My gen 1 has never handled ERG properly so I gave up on workouts
Without being able to test the movement of each, I was really hoping you'd expand on that category. I understand you gave the category to Wahoo, but what makes the additional movement better?
I’m unclear? I showed movement in all directions, explained why the Wahoo was better, showed why the Wahoo was better, and detailed exact amounts for each one.
@Dcrainmaker , the movement is clearly better on the Wahoo. How does that translate into a better experience, though? Does it feel more natural? Does it feel like you're able to transfer power more efficiently? You stated the motion is said to reduce fatigue. Did you notice a difference in time to fatigue more on one trainer over the other? I'm grateful for your videos. You're always really thorough. Movement is the large change for many of us looking to upgrade, and I cannot tell why it's a decent upgrade without being able to experience it. I was hoping you were going to expand on that aspect more. You said more movement is naturally better. Is that a stark contrast or just a minor benefit?
I really don’t think the movement feature makes a difference especially if you are not sprinting… Even if you sprint a lot, the trainer movement seems to me so artificial and I am not sure about the benefit in terms of realism. So I think buying neo 2t, kickr v6 or elite justo for a bargain price still seems like the best option.
Does the Tacx have power smoothing? The Erg mode is what made me sell my previous Tacx Neo 2T. I understand it may be more "accurate" but seeing that number jumping all over the screen drives me nuts! I'd rather just not use Erg mode and do my intervals myself rather than having the "Erg mode" jumping all over the place compared to the Wahoo's nice smooth power numbers.
Currently suffering with this on my new 2T. The power is just everywhere erg mode or not and I’m not mashing the pedals I’ve got 50/50 power balance and am holding a consistent cadence and the power is going 40w each way with every turn of the pedals 😢
Very interesting comparison. One thing that stood out for me was the clearance issue. I run 1x on my roadies cause I hate 2x. 1x often has a larger granny and thus the mech is usually a bit lower even with a smaller cage. Have you tested a 1x setup on the Tacx and is it an issue?
The key feature... for you... is Road Feel. It is ignored by many since it can be seen as a gimmick by some. In other cases like following workouts driven by apps or devices (TR, WahooX, etc.) the Road Feel is not accessed at all. Like any other feature, it will matter to some and be irrelevant to others. Value what you want but don't expect that everyone else has the same preferences or priorities.
@@Chader9 for myself i would be on a wattbike atom to avoid ripping front mechs off, but the tacx road feel is useful and i do use ovals hence im still waiting to decide if i go neo3 or wattbike.
How can as of now 27000 people have seen this video and only 1700 gave a thumbs up. How fckng lazy are you folks??? Thank you Ray. For me the obvious choice is the Kickr here (and I say that as a proud Tacx Neo owner which is working flawlessly since 2015).
I think there's a notable difference between "overpriced relative to competitors" (such as this here), or "too expensive for what my wallet would like" (such as most of their products). The reality is, the vast majority of their products are pricey, because they're premium offerings. And in most categories, they're the widely agreed upon market leader. And market share shows people are more than willing to pay that premium for a premium product. Of course, there are exceptions where Garmin simply gets pricing wrong - and from time to time they even correct those prices. We saw it with the Garmin Instinct Crossover quickly reducing its price, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it here.
I don't think so its a fair review, a little too bit pro wahoo, the tacx for me is a little bit better and yes you have wifi on it , price was 1600 euros and not 2000 like you said. My two pennies comment
Not sure what you’re taking about, Tacx NEO 3M is very much not 1600EUR, but 2000EUR as stated, and also as stated it only has wifi if you spend another 149EUR.
Do they have virtual shifting like smart bikes? Do they have one gear to avoid higher friction cross-chaining? No? In that case I’ll save $1000 and buy a Zwift Hub One. Because paying $1000 for an unrealistic amount of movement is nuts. If they leaned/tilted 10 degrees or so it might be different. These trainers are significantly more noisy than a trainer with a single freehub cog when they’re not used in 4 or so optimal gears.
The thing I love about Ray ( aside from the in-depth, deep-dive reviews every video ) is that he talks FAST. As a guy who listens to audiobooks at 1.5x speed, his cadence is perfect. I hope this doesn't come across as unintentional shade.
Always love your deep dive Ray... I hope Garmin read these comments, I am firmly a Garmin man, I have shit loads of Garmin stuff, bike computers, watches, Golf Range finders and I love the Neo, I bought the OG and currently have the 2T, but when a hard core Garmin fan boy like me looks at this and goes... Nah, I'll buy a Kickr when i comes time to replace my 2T they need to sit up and listen, one thing you do not do, drive away your fan boys/girls, Garmin, listen to Ray's final thoughts, he isn't the only one thinking this, and if you believe the ERG Mode is enough of a sell, you are mistaken
Isn't another big selling point of the Tacx over the Kickr's not having to worry about drive belt? Not fanboying...as I still dont know if I will upgrade my Saris H3 to a Neo 2t, Neo 3m, or a Kickr V6
I will have to recommend Wahoo support. My Wahoo trainer started making terrible noises a few years ago. It was about a month after the warranty had expired. I called them and asked if I could buy the parts needed to fix it. Instead, they replaced it for free and it has worked perfectly ever since. I also like Garmin. They replaced out of warranty computers for a reasonable fee. I plan to buy one of these in the near future, but I haven’t decided yet.
Excellent assessment! You can't go wrong with either product but I do wish my kickr move had the downhill inertia capability... sounds like a more realistic approach
I bought the Move a month ago (also thanks to your review) and I don't regret it (and this comparison is not affecting my decision; I would pick up the move again). I love the Move. It was extremely easy to set up (it was my very first trainer, very first timing changing the cassette, etc., so no previous experience with such technicalities and everything went smoothly), it is very fun to use, it doesn't take much space (huge plus for me as I live in a flat).
Fun fact: in Poland most of the bike fitters use wahoo trainers and climbers for fitting the bikes. Not sure if I've ever seen any tacx at bike fitting studios (even though garmin watches, computers, etc. are the most popular ones)
I never loved Tacx Neo 2T and sold it to buy Kickr Move and haven't regretted it for a second. The ride feeling on the Kickr Move is superior compared to the Neo 2T. Congrats on your Kickr Move!
But allow me one question: is the sideways tilt on the Tacx Neo not a bit more "comfortable" and bigger? I read this several times. Greetings!@@Mzkysti
@@oliverklimek4041 the sideways tilt in Neo 2T is good, maybe the best feature of it, it just isn't very large
Another great video Ray. I will say, I am a huge Garmin fan. A large portion of my bike gear is garmin (Computer, HRM, radar etc) That said, I have always felt that Wahoo did a better job on trainers and with this latest release of the Tacx, I think that still remains the case. I won't be retiring my Kickr anytime soon.
Thanks! I am trying to decide between the two. I think this review was the kickr.
I am a Garmin fan and I was looking to buy my first Garmin trainer. But I am not happy about the pricing from Garmin. Everything from Garmin is expensive. Whahoo has much better pricing and now I decided to go for the whahoo trainer. I will save some 400 euro's to take the family out or upgrade my summer bike to 12 speed.
The best 'party trick' would be the Garmin Tacx Neo... ability to use it unplugged. Love that feature of the neo line.
Good call, and totally forgot about that in the video! Will add it io the post!
*Diving into the user manual it'd be worth noting that the Ethernet/WiFi module only works when the trainer is on mains power.
@@gplama Damn it! There goes my middle of the Australian outback LAN Zwift party we had scheduled next month.
5G then it is
@@Dcrainmaker Pro tip, kickrs are 12v, Car batteries are 12v. For legal reasons I can not say any more. You two get it.
the next frontier for trainers is virtual shifting - let see who gets there with their top of the line product :) I have Neo2T obviously not upgrading anytime soon
I have a Neo 2T. I wouldn't buy a new trainer that doesn't have virtual gearing. The ability to put any bike in it without swapping cassettes is too much of a draw
Thanks to this video, I decided to buy the wahoo kickr and saved me some money. Thanks!
Crazy that these are just getting movement...my old Kurt Kinetic Rock n roll...was amazing such a shame they never got smart trainer done right...only used a handful of dumb trainers but that was easily the best...
For what it’s worth I’ve had great support w wahoo. And another friend just had wahoo replace his kickr outside of the warranty.
I hit the like button because i found this video really damn long. Thanks for the detailed review. While I am not in the market for a new trainer for the moment, that time will come.
Haha, thanks!
Garmin could increase their sales substantially if they’d get more competitive with their pricing for similar features. For now, it seems they’re ok with their perception of their customers being “money is no object.”
I’ve had many Garmin products over the years and their pricing model has never been competitive
Wahoo wins, purely on price. The asking price of the 3M is just absurd.
Other than the the biggest point is the rocker plates. From multiple perspectives.
1)Reliability, since they are built in as a moving part into the trainer that makes it prone to reliability issues down the line and hurts resale values. Both take approaches to this differently so we will have to wait and see.
2)It is still a rocker function which is a plus over a more expensive indoor smart trainer bike. Which both accomplish differently.
3)A rocker plate attachment would be better compared to having to built in for maintenance reasons.
About Wahoo, there is a info on their website that some of the bikes won't fit 100% and there is a chance of a frame damage. BUT, they also provide for free adapters to fit those frames.
Thanks as always Ray. I know it's an applesc& oranges comparison, but I've had nothing but excellent support from Wahoo, including Kickr Core, Kickr Climb, Tickr, Bolt v1 and Roam v2. Still +10 days on response from Garmin on Epix Gen2.
As I'm not in the high end market for trainers, I'm ecstatic about the new Kickr Core pricing.
Read in depth review. Always astonished at the thoroughness and readability. Thanks for keeping us informed.
I got the Garmin because it’s heavier which is better for a heavier rider (I found the wahoo wasn’t grounded well enough for me so returned it).
I still have the tax neo first generation! Still going strong .
tacx are inaccurate asf
The Neo’s axle height isn’t adjustable either, that is a nice feature to have on the Kickr V6/Move. Also, that Neo is massssssive compared to the Move.
I agree 100% with including the wifi. Like it's alright to be more expensive. But over a 100USD is ridiculous.
I’m finally in the market for a new trainer after faithful service from my OG 2017 Neo.
This the exact review I was looking for.
Many thanks DC 🙏🏼
Did it die? I’ve still got my Gen 1 and it’s still a great workhorse
@@grobbosixtyone nah mate still going strong. No issues actually. Just considering an upgrade finally as run a road disc bike now and not keen on forcing the rear triangle apart with the spacer to stop the brake rub against the Neo
Thanks for the deep dive. How does the Elite Justo compare to these two?
Funny how garmin can fit wifi into a watch but cant fit it into a trainer .
I figure we are pretty lucky at this point if using these is your thing. They both seem really impressive. I will say I crashed and broke my Garmin watch. My fault, not a defect. Garmin customer service sent me a brand new watch. I haven't forgotten, and I just paid a handsome premium for a gift to get a Garmin product. Other companies, possibly even Wahoo, could learn why customer service matters.
Love Ray… he’s so so good.
Wondering how elite will respond. Elite usually. Takes it time but answers very well.
And I doubt Elite will support warranty claims to elite rizer if used with garmin equipment.
Thank you, auf dieses Video habe ich gewartet.
I would probably not buy the 3M, but not because of the Kickr Move. The 2T + motion plate is the real contender here imho :)
I’m probably going to buy a Neo3M down the road but am very curious about the potential fit issues. Sounds like it will fit most after the initial struggle to mount your bike but the tolerances are scary close.
Probably a good time for a new trainer recommendation guide Ray 😉
One thing I've asked before but am still perplexed by. Wahoo introduced an electromagnetic resistance unit on their Kickr bike but have not translated this into a Neo-like rear-wheel trainer. I sort of expected the v5 Kickr to have this unit, then they continued as they were with the v6 with new features. So why have Wahoo not produced a rear wheel trainer with the Neo features such as road feel and downhill? I also wonder if Wahoo will look at the Erg mode responsiveness - GPlama detailed it well, and bring out some new firmware to level that playing field. With you on the Neo pricing and wifi add-on. Bundle it in at a similar price point to the Kickr and I'd really have to think hard when I upgrade from the v4 Kickr. As it is really the Neo is $2100+.
Latest kickr bike release has changed the resistance unit. Now it appears to be similar to the kickr trainer and not the Neo.
@@davidh7414 Not according to Wahoo site. Same motor assisted electromagnetic unit with 2500w max vs 2000w v1.
Can you elaborate a bit more in the differences in hill simulation between the two devices? I'm currently on a Tacx genuis with a subscription on their app and I like a video assisted ride more than something like zwift. However most of their videos are mountain stages with hills > 10%. The specs for the genius is 2000W / 20% so they not so far off from these new trainers however as an heavier ride (100kg) with 3.5-4W/kg my speed in those video's will be low and the power is above what the trainer can simulate and results in abnormal/abrupt movement that can cause muscle rupture. Neither Garmin or Wahoo seems to give this kind of information (or how the hill % is obtained in their specs) so would these newer trainers be an improvement?
How does the Neo detect left vs. right when reporting power balance?
Think.. 🤓
@@frankrussi Of course!
Hey, will you be reviewing the new Van Rysel trainers from Decathlon?
Awesome comparison! Thanks.
Can you comment on the comfort of these two trainers vs buying something like a rocker plate for a Kickr Core? Basically, I don’t care about realism, and care more about improving comfort to do longer workouts. Is it worth spending $1600 on the Kickr Move, or will I get just as much comfort with a $400 rocker plate added to my Kickr Core?
^^^this
Thanks Ray. Best regards Martin
I wonder how the risers affect the back and forth movement. It seems like the front wheel needs to roll in order to let the motion do its thing
Ray, who makes your lovely orange Apple Watch band? It’s slimmer than Apple’s own Ocean band, but still matches the Ultra orange watch buttons well, and has extra holes for ventilation during workouts. Nice find, if it also feels high quality! I’d like to buy one, will you please share what the band is? 😊🍊⌚️
Great review as usual.
Wahoo WiFi does not work for 5ghz which I found out last week when I got my Kickr v6 after 1 hour I found it on your review you should have said that here. One thing with a number of dealings with Garmin support UK for replacing Neo 2t and vector power pedals out of warranty they were amazing dealt with it quickly and free of charge, highest regard for them. I really like the movement on my Kickr v6 I found it moves just right for me sitting or standing it made all the difference to the ride on Zwift for me I would not worry about having more movement myself.
Both the NEO 3M (or more specifically, the Tacx WiFI adapter), and the Wahoo KICKR WiFi are limited to 5ghz. But practically speaking, I haven't seen that be an actual issue anywhere unless you've specifically shut off the 2.4Ghz side of your network.
@@DcrainmakerI’m confused. Which does it use? 2.4ghz or 5ghz?
2.4ghz is a bummer as it has less channels therefore more chance of local older wifi networks in your vicinity also on 2.4ghz band interfering with your signal
@@Dcrainmaker Unless a router is setup to receive mixed bands it will be setup to the band it set itself up to if that is 5 Ghz it will not connect to 2.4 Ghz . If you go into router setup and disable 5 Ghz you can connect to 2.4 Ghz then reconnect 5 Ghz or it may be possible to add mixed receiving of 2.4 & 5 Ghz depending on router but this will mean time and knowledge to set this up.
I'm really curious to compare those to the very interesting Zwift Hub One on the EFlex Plus...
Which out of the two is the most reliable and durable? I'd rather not deal with any warranty issues and just have a dependable smart trainer especially for such a high price point.
Ray, what does the Tacx Neo 3M have over the Tacx Neo 2T other than the add-on Move feature and the handle? The sale price of the 2T is $900 USD?
Thanks for your review.
I guess they do not include a 12s cassette, with hardly any 12s system being cross compatible. SRAM, Shi and Campa do not work with each others cassettes (at least not well) and then there is 12s MTB/ Gravel, which is not compatible yet again.
All of that was a lot easier with 11s. Just my two cents.
True, but on a $500 trainer, Zwift offered the choice of cassette. As Wahoo is doing for their $599 KICKR Core.
A great review. I love it how Ray just says it the way it is, without fear or favour from these big manufacturers.
I currently have a Neo 2, which I chose after getting the opportunity to personly test a Kickr as well as all the reviews online. Don't get me wrong, the Kickr is an excellent product but in my view, ultimately the downhill drive and road surface simulation clinches it: price aside the Neo is (or was back then) a better trainer. But I have been eagerly waiting on the Neo 3, as I'd like an upgrade over the next year or so. My impression after this review is that the situation is the same: price aside (and if your bike fits on it ok), the Neo is better from a technical stand point.
But Ray is right. Garmin need to get real with their pricing.....I think they'll struggle to sell the Neo 3 after the initial flurry of Neo die-hards with big wallets. Hopefully they'll need to discount it down the track... that's when I might buy. Otherwise, a Kickr V6 move for my birthday next year I think!!
"the Neo is better from a technical stand point" is basically only thing Neo is better, Kickr is just superior smart trainer with it's ride feeling and usability.
Great review! But of course we all know tooo well that Garmin will NOT lower their price to their customers! Why? They are not interested in doing so, plain and simple which tell us a lot of the Garmin mentality and it definitely isn't admirable! For all you newcomers looking to get one of these, my choice is by far the WAHOO KICKR MOVE!!
This
Like all newly released objects, they need at least a year of running in to see if structural problems arise, such as those that afflicted the previous Tacx neo model. That the wi-fi module is external is an insult.
So the big question… which is your daily driver turbo? I’m on a neo 2t at mo but tempted to upgrade as my brother wants a turbo. Move or 3m ????
Which one will let me cleanly add a Chorus 12 spd cassette? I'm still nervous about those reports of "near" compatibility ;)
I have the kinda useless Elite Sterzo, but I'm still curious how does it work with the motion enabled trainers?
Do you have any plans to test the new cheap direct drive trainers from Decathlon? They are so cheap at 250 Euros, I am curious if they are any good.
What would you recommend between one of this vs a tacx 2t or kickr with a rocker plate?
I’ve got a Tacx Neo 2t with the motion plates. The 3m doesn’t seem all that different. The handle at the top isn’t a deal breaker but might be nice. Both trainers seem absolutely superb, but then I really like my 2t and probably wouldn’t notice the difference between any of them. At the top end I expect they are all pretty much of a muchness. Love the videos so thanks for doing them.
Does your 2T vary power by up to 40w in erg mode? I just got one as an upgrade from a wheel on trainer and even trying my hardest I can’t stop swaying 20w either side of the set point, for a very consistent cadence 😢
@@MaxRevitt It’s not bad at all I’m finding. It’s not 40w either side.
Thanks so much for the response. I’ve raised it with support and sent a workout to them, hopefully they can either tell me it is me, or help fix the trainer haha
Dear Sir, Would you know who makes the freehub bodies Wahoo use so one can find a compatible replacement for a Wahoo Core unit? cheers, m
is it worth it to upgrade from the kickr to the move model?
An important difference between these two models is that the Wahoo is belt driven while the Tacx 3M is not. Do you think this makes any real difference (e.g. cobble simulation, accuracy).
Why would you care?
Is the tacx neo 2t worth buying in 2024?
Hi Ray, with these forward and backward moving trainers, how does the Kickr Climb / Elite Riser deal with the movement of the bike? It seems like they would just start tilting back and forth. That Elite Riser looks very sturdy - it seems to me that would put stress on the fork/head tube area of the bike
With CLIMB they have a rubber “boot” that fits on the base that allows rocking. For Elite Rizer, some people say it still works as it has enough flex, I don’t have one handy to try.
I'm releasing my own trainer also. It's going to come with a 9 speed cassette. No options for anything higher. Additional gears is a passing fad. I'll wait it out thank you very much.
I hope you’re working on a review / comparison, Insta360 Ace Pro with GoPro 12. It’s not perfect but it may possibly dethrone GoPro, at least for MTBing.
Yup, working on it!
If you have a garmin bike computer, like the garmin edge 1040 can you connect it to the Wahoo kickr?
Justo is moving up too with new updates
I currently have the Core…when I upgrade it will most likely be the move.
I wonder if Garmin fixed their connectivity issues. I had the neo tacx 2t and the kickr move. The kickr just works no connection issues. The tacx neo 2t had constant connection issues. Since it doesn't appear that Garmin made any changes to the connection setup on the 3m I'd recommend the kickr move.
Weird, I don’t think I’ve seen much in the way of widespread connectivity issues on the 2T. Either way, it’s a new chipset on the 3M.
@@Dcrainmaker if it s a new chipset then hopefully that addressed the issue. But for the neo 2t a quick Google search about connectivity issues shows it was a real problem.
The Neo gen 1 was already a mess in terms of connection...
Thanks for the great comparison! Any thoughts about how do these compare to stationary bikes? I am considering either one of these trainers or stationary bikes, but I am not sure due to the lack of movement on stationary bike.
I have a Stages SB20 and I love it! BUT, it can be brutal on long (2+ hr) rides. That said, TurboRocks does make a rocker plate for it that I plan on getting after the holidays.
@@LouieBaLLz Thanks! That is why I am leaning towards Kickr Move. I have motion plates for my OG Neo, and I like them.
I do mostly erg rides on a kickr bike v2. It gets rough on rides longer than 1.5 hours.
That Neo is bloody huge isn't it. And having to pay extra for wifi. Huge piss-take at that price.
One man’s “huge” is another man’s “durability” and “stability.” I think the Neo looks MUCH better than the wahoo, which looks cheap to me (i.e.- the legs are the same metal tube you get with cheap trainers.
And I can't stand how TALL the Neo series is compared to the Kickr's. The fact that they always required a front wheel riser for 700c road bikes makes no sense when you see the lower height of the Kickr's. When Neos add the Motion Plate action, the get even TALLER. Just plain makes mounting and dismounting more of a hassle. People would likely benefit from a center stand to get on/off.
@@Chader9 I agree on tallness in general, that said in terms of the front wheel block - a lot of people actually still prefer them (including myself). Even when I ride a KICKR (pre-move) I preferred a front wheel block so the handelbars stay straight.
@@Dcrainmaker Yeah, I can see that as a preference and the front would gain a bit of height, but unless it was a rather tall one (and the rider chose to use a higher Kickr axle height too), it's still a lower setup than the Neo in the stock config.
@@Chader9A front block stops the front wheel from moving around. I’ve had both Neo and Kickr and find the block is no big deal
This is the second time I’ve heard you mention about Saris trainers being dethroned for ERG performance.
As someone that only does structured workouts indoors, have you got another video covering this? Looking to replace my failing Flux 2.
Check out my main NEO 3M review, where I basically go deep on why it's so good (just start in the accuracy section, I dig into it there).
@@Dcrainmaker sorry, I watched your 3M review - while it sounds perfect, it’s too pricey for my indoor workouts. I was asking about the Saris being the previous king of ERG
Well, the Tacx neo is the only true direct drive trainer, others are belt driven. This gives him enormous advantage with road feel, downhill and of course precision. Even though it's expensive, the price difference is justified, I would even say wahoo is overpriced because it's just now way it costs so much to manufacture, unlike tacx with its huge and complicated motor.
In the trainer world, direct drive refers to the fact that the rear wheel is removed, thus the chain is directly driving the cassette of the trainer. Which is different from the car world. It’s been that way for over 15 years now.
Thank you for the detailed review. I have thoroughly enjoyed every minute of it. 3 years ago when I started cycling I was so against indoor trainers. However things have changed and now the time has come. In my local market here in Dubai, UAE. the Garmin is around 2790 USD. While the Kickr move is around 1738 USD. A 1000 USD difference is huge ! makes my choice towards the Wahoo Kickr the easiest and most obvious one..
So can Wahoo improve their ERG performance with a software upgrade? I'm frustrated by how the Kickr doesn't always restart ERG mode if I stop turning the cranks during a structured workout.
In theory, maybe, in practice, unlikely with the current motor (without oversmoothing it). My guess is that much of Tacx's ability here comes from the massive no power control system in the NEO 3M, rather than the magnet side of things.
@@DcrainmakerDoes that mean TACX/Garmin have fixed the issue with ERG not working properly on Neo’s? My gen 1 has never handled ERG properly so I gave up on workouts
@@grobbosixtyonecould you elaborate on the issue you had with ERG on your gen 1?
The Neo really needs leveling feet like the Wahoo.
Without being able to test the movement of each, I was really hoping you'd expand on that category. I understand you gave the category to Wahoo, but what makes the additional movement better?
I’m unclear? I showed movement in all directions, explained why the Wahoo was better, showed why the Wahoo was better, and detailed exact amounts for each one.
@Dcrainmaker , the movement is clearly better on the Wahoo. How does that translate into a better experience, though? Does it feel more natural? Does it feel like you're able to transfer power more efficiently? You stated the motion is said to reduce fatigue. Did you notice a difference in time to fatigue more on one trainer over the other? I'm grateful for your videos. You're always really thorough. Movement is the large change for many of us looking to upgrade, and I cannot tell why it's a decent upgrade without being able to experience it. I was hoping you were going to expand on that aspect more. You said more movement is naturally better. Is that a stark contrast or just a minor benefit?
Compare Tacx Neo 2T against wahoo plz. They are more comparable in .price.
road feel is better on tacx. have the first version neo.. that time wahoo was way behind.. now I aware they should be closed.
I really don’t think the movement feature makes a difference especially if you are not sprinting… Even if you sprint a lot, the trainer movement seems to me so artificial and I am not sure about the benefit in terms of realism. So I think buying neo 2t, kickr v6 or elite justo for a bargain price still seems like the best option.
You can add moving plates to Neo 2T, there are some deals that can be found for both of them.
Does the Tacx have power smoothing? The Erg mode is what made me sell my previous Tacx Neo 2T. I understand it may be more "accurate" but seeing that number jumping all over the screen drives me nuts! I'd rather just not use Erg mode and do my intervals myself rather than having the "Erg mode" jumping all over the place compared to the Wahoo's nice smooth power numbers.
Currently suffering with this on my new 2T. The power is just everywhere erg mode or not and I’m not mashing the pedals I’ve got 50/50 power balance and am holding a consistent cadence and the power is going 40w each way with every turn of the pedals 😢
Still can’t believe GPLama hasn’t got one.
Very interesting comparison. One thing that stood out for me was the clearance issue. I run 1x on my roadies cause I hate 2x. 1x often has a larger granny and thus the mech is usually a bit lower even with a smaller cage.
Have you tested a 1x setup on the Tacx and is it an issue?
Jeeze Ray, put some air in the front tire!🤣
It's funny, I went to take b-roll for those few comparison shot and it was like...sigh...nah, not gonna bother.
Neo is massive... And too expensive... Happy with wahoo...
Garmin AUS in my experience don't know about their products
the key feature is road feel, its ignored by so many
The key feature... for you... is Road Feel. It is ignored by many since it can be seen as a gimmick by some. In other cases like following workouts driven by apps or devices (TR, WahooX, etc.) the Road Feel is not accessed at all.
Like any other feature, it will matter to some and be irrelevant to others. Value what you want but don't expect that everyone else has the same preferences or priorities.
@@Chader9 for myself i would be on a wattbike atom to avoid ripping front mechs off, but the tacx road feel is useful and i do use ovals hence im still waiting to decide if i go neo3 or wattbike.
Tacx dropped the ball by raising the price and not installing Wi-Fi and faster transmission for racing
Money be damn.... yep, I ordered the NEO .... and the wifi adapter 😢
And after all that, you get a Kickr Core from the Zwift shop... :)
(RIP Zwift Hub p/b Jet-Black)
It looks like neither of them are compatible with Campagnolo, is that correct?
For Campa and the Neo Series you got a separate free hub 9-12 and the N3W, for the Wahoo I don’t know I only know the Garmin Stuff :)
I thought it was a wahoo video like the fish 🐟😂😂
That's actually where the company name comes from. The founder used to make docks, called Wahoo docks, after the Wahoo fish in that area.
your bike trainer guide dates from4 years alod
How can as of now 27000 people have seen this video and only 1700 gave a thumbs up. How fckng lazy are you folks???
Thank you Ray. For me the obvious choice is the Kickr here (and I say that as a proud Tacx Neo owner which is working flawlessly since 2015).
Garmin always charges too much for their stuff
I think there's a notable difference between "overpriced relative to competitors" (such as this here), or "too expensive for what my wallet would like" (such as most of their products). The reality is, the vast majority of their products are pricey, because they're premium offerings. And in most categories, they're the widely agreed upon market leader. And market share shows people are more than willing to pay that premium for a premium product. Of course, there are exceptions where Garmin simply gets pricing wrong - and from time to time they even correct those prices. We saw it with the Garmin Instinct Crossover quickly reducing its price, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it here.
I wanna go up 25% hills. 🙋♂️😂
For the price i would like an 8 year warranty.
Cut the crap which ones better?
I answered that in-detail in the video.
Wothout the Climb life is empty :))) Sorry Garmin.
I don't think so its a fair review, a little too bit pro wahoo, the tacx for me is a little bit better and yes you have wifi on it , price was 1600 euros and not 2000 like you said. My two pennies comment
Not sure what you’re taking about, Tacx NEO 3M is very much not 1600EUR, but 2000EUR as stated, and also as stated it only has wifi if you spend another 149EUR.
Ok… I’ll comment now… Yes! Wahoo couldn’t care less about Customer Support… I finally quit trying to get Help from them for that reason alone 👎😡
PS Speaking from Experience 👎👎
Do they have virtual shifting like smart bikes? Do they have one gear to avoid higher friction cross-chaining? No? In that case I’ll save $1000 and buy a Zwift Hub One. Because paying $1000 for an unrealistic amount of movement is nuts. If they leaned/tilted 10 degrees or so it might be different. These trainers are significantly more noisy than a trainer with a single freehub cog when they’re not used in 4 or so optimal gears.