How Rome dealt with mutinies in the army
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- Опубліковано 8 тра 2024
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Primary sources:
- Albinus’ Pompeii Mutiny:
Livy, Epit. 75
Val. Max. 9. 8. 3
Plu. Sul. 6
Oros. 5. 18. 22
Dio Fr. 100
- Caesar's Vesontio Mutiny:
Caes. BG. 1. 39-41
Cass. Dio. 38. 34-47
- Scipio's Sucro Mutiny:
App. Iber. 34-37
Livy. 28. 24-32
Polyb. 11. 25-30
Zon. 9. 9-10
- Caesar's 9th Hispana Mutiny:
Suet. Caes. 69
App. BC. 2. 47
Cass. Dio. 41. 26
Secondary Sources:
Brice, L. L. “Indiscipline in the Roman Army of the Late Republic and Early Principate” in Brice, L. L. (ed.) New Approaches to Greek and Roman Warfare, 2020, Hoboken: Wiley Blackwell. 113-126.
Brice, L. L. “Second Chance for Valor: Restoration of Order after Mutinies and Indiscipline” in Brice, L. L. & Slootjes, D. (eds.) Aspects of Ancient Institutions and Geography Studies in Honor of Richard J.A. Talbert, 2015, Leiden & Boston: Brill. 103-121.
Brice, L. L. “SPQR SNAFU: Indiscipline and internal conflict in the Late Republic” in Armstrong, J. & Fronda, M. P. (eds.) Romans at War Soldiers, Citizens, and Society in the Roman Republic, 2020, New York: Routledge. 247-267.
Chrissanthos, S. G. “Freedom of Speech in the Roman Republican Army” in Sluiter, I. & Rosen, R.M (eds.) Free Speech in Classical Antiquity, 2004, Leiden & Boston: Brill. 341-369.
Chrissanthos, S. G. “Scipio and the Mutiny of Sucro 206 B.C.” in Historia: Zeitschrift für Alte Geschichte, 46, H. 2. 1997, 172-184.
Chrissanthos, S. G. Seditio: Mutiny in the Roman Army 90-40 B.C. Los Angeles: University of Southern California. 1999.
Keaveney, A. The Army in the Roman Revolution. New York: Routledge. 2007.
Machado, D. Voluntas Militum: Collective Action and Popular Power in the Armies of the Middle Republic. Zaragoza: Libera Res Pública. 2023.
Nolan, D. “Caesar’s Exempla and the Role of Centurions in Battle” in Armstrong, J. (ed.) Circum Mare: Themes in Ancient Warfare, Mnemosyne Supplements Vol. 388, 2016, Leiden & Boston: Brill. 34-62.
Defining Mutiny (0:00)
Albinus and incompetence (2:38)
Caesar and fear (6:49)
Scipio and opportunism (9:28)
Caesar and need for discharge (12:23) - Розваги
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Uh that statement you made about learning a bit of french before going to quebec or france wasn't the best thing to say. Completely different dialects. You don't want to learn canadian french and then use it in france. You'll get some weird looks at best and people will think you're a backwoods hillbilly at worst
Do a video on "Post Battle Conditions". What happened to all the dead, all the weapons, armor. The supply camps that followed the legions.
Good idea… will look into it.
Yes, that sounds like it would be a great episode.
Agreed excellent idea I have not seen covered yet!
Caesar was such a chad, he talked down the mutineers, who felt so bad about it they said they'd kill themselves. Caesar said nah, just don't do it again.
Unironically, IMO Caesar was by far the greates person who ever lived.
He was a genius in every field - his laws where amazingly well crafted, he was a gifted orator, he was brave, he was a military genius, he was loved by his troops and the people, he was generous, he showed clemency, he worked very hard (not only in big areas, but in small stuff as well - maintaining the roads in earlier posts in his youth e.g.), He introduced a new calendar after several decades when nobody bothered to put the calendar right.
He was a visionair who clearly saw the future of Rome and what had to be done to protect it.
He was fair and generous not only to his peers but to the common soldiers and citizens in Rome as well. He protected them and their interests throughout all of his career, in all his laws he suggested. He never was interested in amassing wealth for himself, he never wanted power only because of the power. He wanted - and needed - power to make a change for the better, to lay a solid foundation for the future. Not for himself or some aristocracy, but for Rome itself and all its citizens.
AND HE SUCCEDED. He made Rome a better place, he laid the foundation for Pax Romana, a long peace where everybody prospered. After decades upon decades of unrest and civil war he laid the foundation for peace and prosperity. Yes, it did not last forever - but no human can create something that lasts for centuries and millenia.
We have other people who were great orators (Cicero), we have people who where great military leaders (Alexander).
But we do not know of another human being that combined all the skills and qualities Caesar had.
@@wedgeantilles8575 I totally agree. The man was gifted in every capacity. His life story reads like the most interesting fiction I have ever read, but it is all true.
@@wedgeantilles8575On another thread just had a mini argument about how Napoleon was NOT a genius, more like a reasonably competent person, then ambitious opportunist which exceded his competence.
He openly copied and emulated ceasar which itself is an admission to "I'm not as good as this guy but trying to"
If your not smart enough to know the limits of your ability your not a genius.
@@shady83 Agreed. Napoleon is pretty overrated. He was also a liberal and wanted power only for the sake of power, which is pretty damn cringe.
@@blorb32 you ruined this intellectual comment section
"My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius, commander of the Armies of the North, General of the Felix Legions and loyal servant to the true emperor, Marcus Aurelius...." 😳
"And I will have my vengeance..in this life..or the next."
...and all these after screwing the daughter of his father like figure of course lol
one of my fav movies of all time.
Ugh.. what has this tired shit got to do with the video?
@@lazy_nytare you not entertained!!!😂
At my signal, unleash hell
Caesar dealing with the munity of the 10th legion is my favourite at a different time than one in the video . After 13 years of continuous war and service legions VII, IX, X and XII wanted their deserved retirement/money/land, the awards promised by Caesar during his campaign in Gaul and battles against Pompey.
Caesar went personally into their camp and asked what they wanted. Legions doubled down on their demands which Caesar called their bluff, addressing them as Citizens instead of Legionnaires, saying they would all be released from service then went to leave.
This caused such a shock among the dishonoured legion who were hoping they were badly needed for a campaign in Africa, they instead starting begging Caesar to reconsider and take them on campaign which Caser refused, stating he was upset the soldiers didn't trust his promises after all the years they had been fighting together. Eventually Caesar agreed to accept them back apart from the tenth whom started begging for forgiveness and even agreed to the mentioned decimation.
When Caesar also forgave the tenth, he didn't put any rebel soldier to death but he found out the ring leaders and made sure in upcoming battles they were put in the most dangerous places
Not only did he avoid munity, he actively had made the rebels beg forgiveness and were more willing to fight for him than before.
Like mentioned on this channel in a video before, during the civil war 83/82 BC Pompey Magnus was ordered to Africa to smash the remaining forces of Marius. His fleet landed near the ruins of Carthage where some legionaires found a buried treasure, which sparked a mutiny, with the majority of the soldiers abandoning their command and going treasure hunting themselves. Pompey, who understood that he would not be able to stop this, spent his time going around and mocking and laughing at the soldiers and their unsuccessful efforts. A few days later his troops returned remorsefully to him and begged to be taken in again, their hard labour in vain had been punishment enough, which Pompey generously accepted.
A veteran viewer 😉. Thanks for your loyalty and support through the years 😊
@@JonEtxebeberriaRodriguez Thank you for your friendly response!
Correct. Roman discipline and obedience to orders could vary quite a bit. It's a false image that persists just like Samurai being loyal and European Knights being chivalrous. The reality is not necessarily like the image.
Reading Roman history always shocked me about this. You have it in your head they are somewhat like modern volunteer Western militaries, since they were one of the few state militaries (and mostly volunteer) in the ancient world, then you find out what happens when the pay is late, the food ran out, they didn't like a particular commander/Emperor, got spooked by a superstition, or just plain didn't want to fight.
How is that surprising with the amount of civil wars and coups in the late empire
Excellent video, and very well presented. Thank you! Regards from Canada 🇨🇦
*Furiously writes down notes for worldbuilding*
Love your work man, been following you for a year now, come a long way!
I appreciate that!
Love this channel
After all, they were humans exactly like us. I heard once, from an ex military, that soldiers can have doubts regarding a strategy or command if it is unreasonable or too risky... He said "Of course soldiers can be afraid". I think this kind of nuances are important to know the history in detail and how it really was.
I'm a fairly new subscriber; your narration and uploads is very engaging 😊
Thank you, welcome aboard!
Ah, the classic 10th Equestris
Excellent coverage of this particular subject. Thank you!
Ooooo, we hope that you start to make more videos
How to stop a mutiny in one word by Julius Caesar
"Civilians.."
Great video please more
Caesars speech = Divide et Impera
Great job, dude! I've been following your work for a year and you've really made it.
Subscribed, even a cursory glance at Roman history reveals many mutinies in the Legions.
Hi! Just a quick correction, Scipio Africanus fell ill at Cartago Nova (Hispania) not Carthage (Africa) :)
Yes! I must have forgot to say “new carthage”.
I really want to study or delve deeper more into why ancient armies are more likely to go into mutiny than modern professional armies.
Imagine having your pay delayed for months at a time. Or perhaps years. British Sailors usually are not paid by the month but sometimes in years or at best in six months after serving at sea.
Imagine that plus shitty situations and shit food. Who wouldn't? I mean, Medieval knights had a tendency to disregard a monarchs decree and even rebel despite being given land to tax and farm. Just look at hubgarian empire and see how shitty and army of knights can be when you really need them.
Well it’s just my guess but one thing is that the modern armies should be getting paid on time whether they are from a democratic or dictatorial nation. Everyone knows that if you anger the military they can and will seize control or depose a ruler.
And for the case of the US military I can also think of how they do rotations when they were in Iraq or Afghanistan. These soldiers weren’t there for a full 20 years but served in tours of a few years at a time. I would imagine if someone were made to serve in a foreign land for 20 years would be quite dissatisfied.
Thank you very much. I wish you had been around when I took Roman history in college in the early 80s. You've added a lot to my knowledge through watching your videos, Reading books such as Gladius, , and listening to selective podcasts. ,
I just have to say thank you very much
very interesting
Thank you very much for this valuable information and nice videos
keep it up ! please work on many roman works such as Caesars accounts
The sword of Damocles saw no rest for the wicked in Rome.
I thought your going to make a vid of Part 3 of Dacian wars
That should be out in 1-2 months. We have 2-3 videos planned before it.
Great Video!!! Can you do one about Legio XXI Rapax?
is there any occasion where the mutiny legion just defected (or threatened to defect) to the other side, especially during civil war? Like the 9th just like "screw Ceasar, we will join Pompey"?
also, what would be the centurion's role during the mutiny? Did they often side with the general, or they were the ringleader themselves?
I mean in Spain Pompey’s legion did defect nominally to Caesar since they didn’t really want to fight. I would say nominally since Pompey was in Greece at the time separated from his legions in Spain so Caesar probably just kept these guys in Spain to garrison it.
There’s also the case when Octavian and Anthony had their civil wars. In the battle of actium quite a lot of Anthony’s men defected but I’m not too sure if it was whole legions or enough soldiers defected that the legions were basically defunct.
In Old Latin this was known as Youno PayMeacus I Mutinyus..yes...I made that up but it sounds good right?
Very nice video.I read that in many cases of mutiny,centurions and other officers that were hated by the men,were executed.What happened with the soldiers that executed their centurions?Was a general rule of how to deal with those men or it was a case by case scenario,with the general deciding what punishment he should order?
In the US military mutiny itself isn't the only crime, failing to suppress or at the least report a mutiny or desire for a mutiny is also covered by Article 94. The punishment is death or such other punishment as a court martial may direct
Now a days bad commanders just get smoked by their own soldiers, rather than a full blown mutiny.
Hmmm…..this might be a good time to act on historical precedent……😉
4 years without pay and poor conditions? Those guys are more loyal that i am.
ok this is new to me. 9th is written as VIIII but not IX. Interesting to say the least.
The exclusive use of IX for 9 was formalized much much later. The Romans used IIII or IV and VIIII or IX pretty much indistinctively. For example the gates of the Colosseum are numbered in this format LXVIIII
interesting video
Would consider making similar videos for the Parthians and or the Sassanid?
Where djd you get thay Banner? That is so good!!@ did you get it from devian art?
Lol why you finna purchase one?
3rd century rebellions would be interesting
12:28 any explanations about that "VIIII" 9, anybody? Is it "IX" as I learnt it, a -1 and a 10?
or is it this 5 + 4? Or both?
it is confusing.
thank you, anybody
Rome had two different ways of spelling 4 or 9.
It could be IIII for 4 or VIIII for 9. That is an older version, that was however quite frequently used when refering to legions.
However, it could be written as IV (for 4) or IX (for 9) as well.
Same goes obviously for e.g. 14. XIV or XIIII.
Caesar himself used both versions in his famous "bello gallico", where he used both ways when he referred to the 14th legion IIRC.
@@wedgeantilles8575 I am glad to read that the Romans were confused, too. Thank you.
We have the same kind of things in the US military. Enlistees take an oath to uphold and defend the constitution but give up many rights and protections under that same constitution and commit to the Uniform code of military justice.
I wonder many civil wars were fought among Romans before the end of the Roman Empire in the West?
There were a lot of civil wars spanning centuries of Rome’s existence. It was a big factor that led to its demise.
This is the humanity I know
Ceasar didn’t threaten to march with the tenth legion. He went with the 13th!
It also worth noting that Roman discipline are similiar yet diffrent than what we think discipline today, largely due to Roman virtue that highly reward bold, aggresive action and winning glory. Just look at Roman politics and Roman triumph.
Discipline thus served to temper Roman cultivited hot headedness(which is why this is how Roman justfiy their loss most of the time) and judging by how unusually lenient Roman general forgive or at least limit their punishment were probably with considerstion of their own culture bias in mind.
Decimation. Enough said.
Did the character of mutinies change in the Empire? Tacitus recounts some in the early Empire, fuelled by late discharges and seeming opportune because of the recent ascension of Tiberius, but the only later ones I know of are attempted usurpers. Perhaps the fading of the Republican tradition among roman soldiers made them less capable of organising a mutiny in the same way as before.
76 mutinies in sixty years is not that bad actually if you compare it with early modern European armies. The Spanish Army of Flanders had much more in half that time from the 1570s to 1609. I guess the Romans were probably better at paying their troops than the Habsburgs.
Cant wait for people to somehow blame the barbarians for this one. Big L for Rome when their most loyal troops were foreign mercenaries like the foederati and varangians, whereas the born Romans seemed more interested in carving up the Empire
🗿👍
Mutiny involves a ship or vessel. This video concerns sedition.
Mutiny just means not obeying or rebelling against authorities. Doesn’t necessarily means it’s exclusive for ships or the navy. I think it was just widely associated with and used for naval crews during the age of discovery and that’s why most people would think of the navy or pirates
9 is IX not VIIII
Both are used interchangeably by the Romans
And especially when refering to legions XIIII or VIIII was used quite frequently.
Caesar himself used both versions in his bello gallico. Once he wrote legio XIIII, but he wrote legio XIV as well.
You should not make claims like you did when your knowledge about a topic is only very sketchy.
Or phrase it as a question if you wonder if you assume that something is incorrect.
Is this narrated by AI? The pronunciation of certain term like "committee" is distracting.