I have lost all respect and have stopped listening to anything Layne touts. I think he's an arrogant bully. Honestly I could care less about his interpretation of your work. Your studies and the information you are trying to share with the public is so important and helpful. I truly believe this will one day change the way we see the whole lipid/cholesterol model. I am a LMHR and finally have an explanation for what has been going on with me. Thanks for all you do and keep up the great work!
I could have told you that back when he cheated on his pregnant ex-wife and then gaslit her on social media. Dude is a complete narcissist, just a terrible person.
True. I do like that he apparently tries to correct misinformation, I don't necessarily like his presentation. His way of trashing others probably mainly appeals to people who don't want to be educated in the first place, but who want to feel superior over others.
The bigger issue is people constantly driving his publicity. He is a troll, a marketer, and he doesn’t care about the data. He wants views, arguments, and controversy. He repeatedly shows this with his way of interacting with others. If everyone stopped giving him attention he would fade away.
Layne Norton is a clown. Lame Norton was Bart Kay's moniker for him and I believe it fits him well. I suspect Dr Don Layman is embarrassed by his stupidity. I have made several comments about his debating you knowing he will never agree to that. Keep up the great work Dr Norwitz you are one of the few researchers we can all trust.
Layne will never debate Nick because he knows he is intellectually out-matched. I think Layne would rather challenge Nick to a weight-lifting competition. 😂
Thank you, thank you, thank you Nick! There are a lot of people who I disagree with who don’t rub me the wrong way but Norton is exactly what your colleague said: a bully. I would call him something worse but let’s just keep things simple. Norton has long been needing a major humbling.
We need him to call out all these carnivore, keto, vegan, unqualified zealots who make all or nothing claims about the narratives they’re pushing. Those people need to be humbled And I really don’t think he was harsh about this topic and in fact quite humble, especially for Layne. He didn’t say anything to discredit this research and in fact did praise it But I do agree though that it is frustrating that he won’t accept a discussion. It would be immensely beneficial for us viewers that are not formally educated in nutritional science.
@codyfrisch4378 I don’t see your lives as utter BS lol. But I think carnivore influencers declaring vegetables or fruits are bad for you and it’s the way humans are meant to live is BS. It works for some, makes other feel horrible and there is zero data to support it long term. Just like being vegetarian, just like being vegan.
@codyfrisch4378 Religion has saved the lives of many people, no matter the religion, yet each insists they're the only 'correct' religion. Diet zealots are similar and with just about as much fact to back it up. As today's SM victim, Dr. Norton likes to say, when protein and calories are equated, all diets are equally effective. I feel the same way about these diets as I do or people saved by religion, I'm glad it worked for you, but I don't need you to try and save me with it.
Lame Norton and Attia are birds of a feather. They make their careers as YT influencers. So when someone comes along with a significant game changer in the world of metabolic health, they suffer from classic professional jealousy by making others look bad to make themselves look good. And it's backfiring on them.
@@Prawnzih yeah attia is not as bad as Norton but is still a close minded shill imo. He was rude and acted without class when he had the well respected professor seyfried on his podcast.
Nick, this is great. So well done. You are a stand up guy. Lane, on the other hand, is an arrogant "know it all" clown of epic proportions. Thank you Doc. Keep up the great work. It is SO appreciated!
He declined a debate because he’s not interested in the truth or understanding. He is simply seeking attention. It doesn’t serve this purpose to debate you especially if it could lead to him looking intellectually inferior.
@@nicknorwitzPhD which is why he is not deserving of your attention or feedback. Stop addressing him, he is not your concern. Your mind is better served elsewhere.
@@thehealthofash my view is Nick doesn’t need to convince everyone, just the right people. Layne isn’t one of them. Like everyone, Nick has limited time and resources. If he doesn’t do a lot of these then fine I guess. But he does have a huge task at hand that will likely take several years to breakdown barriers. Keep in mind the whole sat fat story began in the 1960s and is still with us today despite advances in our ability to monitor and track various elements of heart and lipid health. The medical industrial complex will fight him all the way and there is no guarantee he will prevail.
Nicely done. The algorithm sent me his review; I try to keep an open mind, but I did think his response was weak, and I wondered what you would make of it. It was nice to see some of my thoughts reflected in your response, particularly that your n=1 result is not out of the blue, it's predicted by the model. That's a very different thing.
Layne is a prime example of how broken the field of 'nutrition' is - I get it, people have spent years studying 'nutrition' and it is a tough pill to swallow that most of what you learned was completely wrong.
It’s because biochemistry and nutrition is controlled by biophysics and light. Layne has no earthly idea about this and probably doesn’t want to know because it would completely crumble his paradigm.
The field of nutrition, like almost all fields involving health science, is highly compromised by corporate influence. It's no longer science, it's marketing.
@@VegetaPrinceOfSaiyans 4 days later and no response, so my guess it's something he heard in a podcast that sounded cool and never actually understood, so your question will forever float in the void.
Thank you for this Nick. Once again, awesome job. I stopped following Layne almost 6 months ago because I got tired of his whiny approach and ignorant bullying. I’m like many others here… I’m just interested in the truth and the data and the science. His treatment of quite a few people I admire (including Dr. Paul Saladino), in my view, has been completely juvenile. I couldn’t take it anymore and stopped listening to him. I’ve concluded he’s just not a super bright guy. So I’m glad you did this post. Keep it up. I love all of it.
Nick thank you for the candour and de-escalation mindset you have brought in trying to get people back to the data and science and away from the passion. It's very common when the fight-flight response kicks in that logic goes away in favour of feelings. Perhaps with the regrettable events Layne is experiencing right now that he isn't thinking as straight as he could be.
Nick is a smart dude, especially applying rule #4 of Saul Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals to hold Layne to account for himself under his “data over feelings” mantra. Rule #4 is as follows: “Make the enemy live up to their own book of rules.”
@@nicknorwitzPhD You will have to provide an example where you believe Layne is "indoctrinated with the wrong information," other than his review of the LMHR data which is said was "great," I'm not a fan of Layne, but maybe I've been "indoctrinated" with the same wrong information. Layne is middle of the road. He goes after vegan diets, low fat diets just as much as any other diet. I guess he's part of the establishment.
@@jakubchrobry3701 Let me clarify, the statement was "[having a] degree doesn’t mean that he wasn’t indoctrinated with the wrong information." I meant this is true. It's simply a true statement. It's not actually an accusation of an individual, although there is an implication. It's a statement you could apply to me as well. I have a PhD, but that doesn't mean what I say is gospel.
Ordinarily, critical answers do little as they tend to result in “tit for tat” bickering, however I think you are responding in the vain of the ancient wisdom, “answer a fool as his folly deserves, lest he be wise in his own eyes.” You are leveraging these critiques in a tactful and documented manner that will cause others to be cautious about speaking critically. The reason, I believe, that some of these folks won’t debate openly with you. Great job Nick. Love your work! From one LMHR to another 😃
Thanks Nicholas! Finally someone calling this tool out. He does such an insane disservice to your average person trying to research nutrition topics by focusing solely on being contemptuous towards others doing good work.
Just please don’t change the title of this video. You often will post and flip-flop on the title if it is too controversial. Just stand by it. Great video.
Thanks for actually representing the real newer data and explanations of this model. Also while holding back from Ad-Hominem unlike Layne. I get that's his schtick at this point, but it's just childish. Especially because he has dragged his feet through the sand with newer developments and theories. Some holes he tries to poke are warranted. But others is just him misrepresenting realistic ways of thinking, undermining new potential ways of understanding. Top notch man as always.
You can't expect a highly narcistic person to admit when they are wrong or listen to what someone else is telling them, that's not how it works. He is right, you are wrong and he will do whatever mental gymnastics he needs to do, whilst avoiding you because you are clearly rational and highly knowledgeable on the subject, in order to maintain that fuzzy warm delusion. If you expect him to engage in a reasonable and rational fashion you will be sorely disappointed. The way you are handling this is extremely professional and educational for the rest of us, so thank you very much for taking the time to do that. NB I use the term narcissistic in a descriptive way, I am not diagnosing. I an not saying he has NPD as some people will likely assume. It's similar to saying someone is melancholic vs someone is depressed. Calling someone narcissistic does not mean I am diagnosing them with NPD, any more than calling someone melancholic is a diagnosing someone with depression. Everyone with NPD is narcissistic but not everyone who is narcissistic has NPD.
"The way you are handling this is extremely professional and educational for the rest of us, so thank you very much for taking the time to do that. " - thanks... P.S. I love that you use 'nota bene'
Mr Norwitz, thanks for your videos. I recently have embraced Keto diet for my self. It is working. Now I hear your insights regarding the science of it. Videos like yours make it possible for the truth not to be hindered to the public. Thanks again.
It is very likely that Layne has NPD. He can only improve if he becomes self-aware or diagnosed (in which people with NPD rarely get diagnosed because they don't think anything is wrong with them and they rarely ever seek help) and gets long-term therapy for it.
Layne has embarrassed himself. This was so avoidable. So much bravado and bluster. He really could do with a touch of humility. Well delivered on this, Nick. I admire the tone you & Dave have taken throughout this. You're much more patient than most would be!
An sufficiently educated individual would probably not take up bodybuilding without atleast making it clear it's a personal thing and not recommended cuz you know. overworking your body probably isn't healthy
@@Mallchad Physical activity is inarguably a healthy thing, we have tons of research on it. And from what I've seen, more coming on muscle strength associations with longevity.
@@VegetaPrinceOfSaiyans exercise? can be, to varying degrees, depending on the exercise. Bodybuilding isn't one of them. as far as I can tell I really don't like associative studies though they do not provide much insight.
I think it's important to remember that most people won't listen to information unless it's packaged in a digestible way. Layne is abrasive, but he gets people's attention and he debunks a lot of the low-hanging fruit such as the terrible nutrition and exercise misinformation from other UA-camrs, chiropractors, and gurus. In longer interviews, Layne shows that he cares about being accurate and not misrepresenting data as much as possible and he remains teachable. I used to not like Layne Norton and he won me over after awhile. It's important to examine multiple sources of credible information and all things, so I definitely take everything Layne says with a grain of salt. More than anything, a proper explanation usually takes hours, it's basically impossible to condense information without misrepresenting or omitting something. I love how PHDs are able to have open discourse and give correction to each other here on UA-cam, it's a great thing! It's a shame to hear Layne is being resistant to said correction from peers
Dude that’s how you dismantle an argument, hats off to you sir. Too many ppl attack aggressively in videos like this and it turns into a highschool shit talking match instead of “here’s why this person is wrong.”
No wonder a lot of us assume that PhD actually means Dunning Kruger. My experience when I taught at the local college was the more advanced the degree the less common sense was available. How does that go, science advances one funeral at a time?
Many have argued the USA debased the currency that a PhD conveys by giving out way, way too many PhDs, many going to people not really having deep knowledge in their field. Layne offers strong support for that theory.
Love this channel and the information it provides, but I love it even more for how you fired back at Layne. Especially after his bully antics against everyone lowcarb, keto, carnivore, or animal based.
@@vegeta5402, Well, I don't think that the "well orchestrated symphony of attacks ... deserves a standing ovation", but the responses from Dr. Norwitz that I have seen might.
We appreciate that the "Oreo vs statins" study result was not explained because it was not understood. Many tests have results which are unexplained, but usually some health influencer will "know" the answer. Using "selective data" to verify opinions and conjecture is the curse of health videos.
Just curious you’re referring to a paradigm shift in which area? The topic discussed in this video or something else? Because I notice Layne Norton dismisses anything which is different from what he learnt. Anything from fasting for weight loss, carnivore diet, or the carbohydrate insulin model instead of energy balance model.
I listened to about 5 minutes of him talking to Thomas DeLour the other day and had to turn it off after seeing how emotional, sarcastic and condescending he was, right off the bat. It seems he cares more about his ego than objective reality
Yeah Layne is sadly one of many nowadays who only have a degree to make it easier for him to win argument, not caring if his points are actually true, this is an really pathetic ego especially since many believe him despite him not caring about the whole truth and only what benefits his ego of being the one "who knows"
Yes Dr Norwitz. Your lookin real good. Stethoscope, scrubs etc. Like an MD! Don't sweat Lame Norton. If he has any questions, or expresses any skepticism, just refer him to Prof Bart Kay. He will take care of him...
Don't worry. I didn't sweat this... took me 15 minutes during lunch at the hospital. ~30 if you include watching Layne's coverage on 2X speed. Not a big effort. I outsource editing.
@russbrown6453 Bart Kay is not who you think he is. He has made erroneous mistakes in the past. Yes, he has. To people with zero competence, he looks extremely competent. To anyone with intermediate level understanding of stats and science? He looks like a clown, partly. Proving that Bart has misunderstood certain things doesn't require a debate. What's required is only common sense, application of logic and a decent reasoning mind.
@@markaguilera493 Yup! I think his audience overestimates Bart's competence and intelligence. Bart is by no means the guy who you ask when you wanna be absolutely sure about something. I think his diagnosis traps him. Not saying this to be rude. But his diagnosis prevents him from interpreting concepts from a multi-dimensional point of view.
I glance over the fact you're a real guy with a real career and a real degree. I tend to confuse "entertainer" nick with a fake version that doesn't exist without the collective substance that brought you into this point, showing how much your presentation of cascades of information that uncovers overlooked, extant and oftentimes buried data. Being serious for a second, you're showing a lot of serious engagement with a guy blatantly arguing in bad faith over data that he doesn't agree with, and decides to harass you for reasons beyond my comprehention. Thank you for not stooping down to his level and making it into a petty childish slapfight. I would totally drop acid with you, having your interest expand to neurology and entheogen culture would be so cool! Sincerely, A big fan, and a bit of an admirer!
Nick 'The Karate Kid' Norwitz taking on the physically formidable Dr Layne Norton. Keep the fight just science and get some of that green powder haha. Andre
@nicknorwitzPhD You have a intellect that has people like Dr Brewer involved for a reason. I like your honesty and the way you try to convey science yet not getting caught in the weeds. Keep it up sir. Andre
@@nicknorwitzPhD Dr Norton has a fantastic success rate treating weight loss and he has a place, he is a role model as a athlete and I obviously stay out of this you two got going on. Both of you two are way out of my league, I support you both. Reduce visceral fat!!!! Andre
Layne is the clear example of what the big Richard Feiyman said: "Never confuse education with intelligence, you can have a PhD and still be an idiot" . He blocked me from everywhere because I was trying to debate him that CICO is a poor model in humans , and that LEM is a great investigation area.
Sorry to ruin your fairy tale but Feynman was a bully, probably more so than Mr Norton. He was more methodical, prepared his pranks better and truly humbled his adversaries. The very fact that he called anyone idiot is a big clue :) And I think he was awesome if only because of that.
I'm so glad I found this video! I have had some sideways responses from Layne after asking what I thought were relevant questions I posted in his comments on some of his videos. I unsubscribed to his channel as I feel he is extremely condescending to say the least, I guess now bully makes a lot of sense. It's very rare to achieve records in a sport and stay humble, maybe arrogance, not confidence, is part of the formula to perform at a high level in powerlifting? Thank you for sticking to science! As someone who was 280LBS in 2020, now 180 about 15% BF, I'm always looking to educate myself with a calm, rational look at the facts.
From my understanding, TG are rising in a chronically hyperinsulinaemic state ONLY AFTER the fat cells starts getting trouble in "sucking in" these TG and storing these...
If LDL damaged the endothelium then we would see the same problem in veins that are seen in the arteries. LDL particles travel through both blood vessels. Veins have the same endothelium as arteries. But atherosclerosis does not happen in the veins.
@@Corkfish1 Disagree. There are many examples of people like Nicholas Norwitz who have LDL levels in the hundreds yet have no heart disease. And there are also many people with low LDL levels who still have heart disease and die from heart attacks.
Your messaging is resonating more and more with me .. the Oreos prediction was cool. That’s not to say I’m giving up my statins .. I’d be too worried about plaque build up …
Never heard about this guy, but I'll tell you something: people I know who emphasize messages like "Data > feelings" or "I don't have opinions, I just consume data" are usually very very sensitive with most of their feelings and emotions.
You can. It just toggles rather than increments the counter. But it feels good. (I wonder whether that activity shows up in any statistics provided by yt to video owners, even if it does not increment the counter?) I do it occasionally on some of my favorite music videos, though I have never actually reached a million.
I stopped clicking on anything that has Layne Norton's name on it quite a while back, this video excluded obviously. I've recognized him as a bully for some time. Layne seems to like being the smartest person in the room, or at least pretend to be. The reason he will not debate Nick is because in a room with the two of them, he would clearly be the least intelligent by a large volume. Some people get their 15 minutes of fame and with efficient marketing, extend it over a lifetime. Layne seems to be one of those people.
I like how Layne says “ I literally have a PhD”. LoL. Literally. He’s a tool. When somebody says that to me, I usually just turn off, And move on. keep in mind Layne is just a nutritionist as if that means something these days
@dsonyay, "... a nutritionist as if that means something these days" It certainly DOES mean something to me these days: "The origins of the anti-meat message with Dr. Gary Fettke - Diet Doctor Podcast" -- Diet Doctor 2019-10-08 ( 55: 29 ) ( Search: 8e1hoIFzn4Y ) "Belinda Fettke - 'Nutrition Science: How did we get here?' " -- Low Carb Down Under (dietitians) 2019-11-09 ( 23: 03 ) ( Search: FTe-eitOJGA "3 Things to Know about Registered Dietitians! [Michelle Hurn, RD]" -- KenDBerryMD 2023-04-04 ( 48: 41 ) ( Search: ut7lZP3QHrc
Most nutritionists that I know that have huge customers haven't lost any weight, that I can notice. Most of them are pushing carbs. I am at the gym 6 days a week, a carnivore, and 68 years old.
Dr. Norton make a mistake in the video saying that LDL cause damage to the endothelium, that how little he knows about the pathophysiology of atherosclerosis because the insult to the endothelium is due to the inflammation and the LDL get trapped with the cells involved in the "fixing". Keep doing a Great job Dr Norwitz
Correct. If LDL damaged the endothelium then we would see the same problem in veins that are seen in the arteries. LDL particles travel through both blood vessels. Veins have the same endothelium as arteries. But atherosclerosis does not happen in the veins.
yeah. what a genius. LDL damages the endothelium that's _supposed_ to be permeable to lipids so it can shuttle nutrients _rolls eyes_ it's also not supposed to be oxidised which is fairly significant
Norton is a self-generated social media character and "influencer," desperate to be considered a true academic. He fundamentally lacks the ability to be humble, nuanced, thoughtful and reflective. Too bad we live in a time when only the loud and brash get clicks. Sadly, the average American is also complicit and has fully lost the ability to find the signal through the noise. The movie 'Idiocracy' is playing out in real life.
I don't understand these "science based" guru/influencers. Even if they think the LEM and LHMR are wrong, why not join in the research to prove it one way or the other. It is perhaps one of the most important human health issues on the planet.
This is great pullback. I'd give Layne some time, he will have chat with you. It does appear his mouth ran away from his brain in this occasion. The top comments read like bunch of spoiled little girls who were stared the wrong way. Layne will fuel his influence even more from that weak energy. If you think he is bully you have not left your fairytale castle. Some of the most genius and resourceful people in science and engineering were worse (Feynman so nicely brought up was really a bully, Shockley was a bully, Edison was a bully). We need both his kind and the soft spoken nerd kind to go forward. 80% of people could never keep attention to the kind of accademic and concise delivery of nerd. Even some who are really smart.
I honestly appreciate Layne for going as hard as he does after the real charlatans on the web. He does that very well. IMO He did make some mistakes in his analysis of these studies and he should have called in some help from a cardiologist or lipidologist. However, his advice based on these studies was not that bad, but I did not see any comments cite him on that: A lean person with perfect blood markers on keto probably has a lower chance of health issues later on than that same person with high LDL-C. I am sure the researchers would agree that very high LDL-C in LMHR is unlikely to be completely risk free as saying otherwise is an absolute statement not (yet) supported by the data.
The LMHR stuff is hardly convincing as of now to use as a tool for personal assurance. The massive amount of data from thousands of people showing quite clear signal that Apo-B can not be ignored, even on lean and fit individuals. Who cares there are 1 in 10000 people who are unaffected? And you only truly find out if you lived to old age with high LDLc. Most probably do not. As if there do not exist ways to be low carb, eat meat, eat plant and have the Apo-B (along with LDLc) in check. Why it has to be black and white - an American thing? Even harder fact to ignore that people who exercise a lot can get a way with some pretty bad habits and still live to old age in good health. Layne was ignorant on assessing their work, but he does give much better grounded advice on how to live healthy and long.
@@ThingsYoudontwanttohear I think this is the point of Nick's research. We cannot say that, "a thin healthy person on keto with low LDL is *probably* at lower risk than a thin healthy person on keto with high LDL." The answer to that is: we don't know because we have not studied lean healthy people on keto with high LDL. Those studies are currently under way. Until these studies are complete, we can make no claim, and offer no probabilistic reference, for whether high LDL increases risk, reduces risk, or has zero effect on risk in an otherwise healthy, lean, long-term ketogenic person. And like so many out there, I am keenly interested in seeing the results when they are published. ❤
@@ketolomicsI think you are putting the bar too high. Would you say that we also cannot say that a lean person on keto will probably not survive intense dose of radiation that has been shown to be deadly on subjects of all shapes and sizes while on various diets, but not on lean keto dieters?
@@ThingsYoudontwanttohear You pose what's known as a "straw man" fallacy. I pose an argument (unknown effects of high LDL in lean, otherwise healthy individuals following ketogenic nutrition). You distort the argument (comparing LDL risk to radiation risk) and then criticizing me for claiming that radiation poses no risk to people based on diet. Radiation poses known, mechanistic risk via cellular and DNA damage. LDL, meanwhile, exhibits widely differing associations with, for example, atherogenesis or MCI (myocardial infarction). The correlation between LDL and MCI is poor (something like 25% shared variance). A large element of LDL-related risk appears to be attributable to metabolic status (especially chronic hyperinsulinemic heteroglycemia). The metabolic status of the individual is indicated by elevated fasting insulin but also by elevated TAG (>80 or so) and low HDL (under 50 or so). Whereas radiation poses invariant risk (high doses are always destructive), LDL appears to be high sometimes in people of great age and health (see, e.g., the Leyden study) but low often times in people with early-onset cardiovascular disease. So, yes: I am suggesting that due to the overall metabolic profile of long term, whole food, ketogenic nutrition, it is plausible that they may reveal lower, not higher, risk of heart disease. This is further supported by the fact that KD enhances antioxidant status (via free radical scavenging, lowered mitochondrial ROS production, lowered glycolytic ROS production, increased mitochondrial turnover, and increased antioxidant enzyme synthesis - catalase, SOD, peroxyredoxin, glutathione, etc), through enhanced vascular endothelial cell function (tight junctions, stem cell stabilization, enhanced omentin-1 function, etc), through enhanced elimination of cellular debris (upregulated autophagy) through reduced pro-inflammatory and increased anti-inflammatory function (lowered NLRP3 inflammasome assembly, decreased M1 macrophage State and increased M2 macrophage state, etc). Importantly, KD recapitulates the metabolic state of semi-starvation that is the hallmark of lifespan maximization across every species of animal we have tested - canonically characterized by persistently low activity along the insulin-insulin like growth factor signaling pathway. So, yes, I think the jury is out on high LDL in lean, otherwise healthy individuals whose LDL rises substantially but stably during long term (>1 year), whole food, ketogenic (BOHB > 1.0mmol) nutrition. Plausible. Experimental data will help elucidate the relationship and the underlying mechanisms of action. Good luck on your health journey! 🌄
Data are nice but often when it comes to interpretation of data we can bring in things like feelings. I have noticed an association between really big muscles and a really big ego. What should we make of this association?
Believe it or not this took 30 minutes of my time. Outsourced edited makes life as an active researcher and med student easier… oh what it would be to have all the time “certain” people do to make UA-cam video… surprised they can’t do a better job if it’s their actual job 😂
What do you think about the hypothesis that lean mass hyper-responders (and possibly others) may have lower LDL on oreo's because the percentage of glycosylated and oxidized "LDL" fatty acids rises signaling the liver to reduce LDL to compensate, and conversely that people with lower percentages of oxidized and glycosylated LDL can have higher LDL levels without it being a problem?
If someone on the internet sells t-shirts as abusiness model, then it does not matter the topic in which they are active. Everything they do is marketing and sales. In this case, saying that everyone is not following the science is the sales angle (it's a popular one these days, because 95% of people don't understand the scientific process but they pretend they do).
UA-cam is the only social media platform where I have an account, so I never visit Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, etc. Seeing those rude and mean social media posts by Layne was surprising to me. For the past several months, I've been subscribed to his channel and watched his "What the Fitness" videos each Friday. But, no longer. I've just unsubscribed. I figured Layne was just playing a character in his videos, but those social media posts of his seem to indicate he's really not a nice person. Plus, apparently, he doesn't know as much as he claims. Humility > Ego
My LDL did drop with the addition of 100 carbs a day after my carnivore diet showed a big increase in my LDL to 313. My HDL 89, Triglycerides 90. My cholesterol was always a little bit high but within a normal range and ratios always very good. But when I started low carb and then carnivore my cholesterol shot up (ratios still good). I added carbs (sweet potato) and on my next blood draw three months later, my LDL decreased over 75 points. I don't know about this working better than a statin, but as a 57 year old woman who is on no medications and my health appears to be improving as evidenced by AIC and insulin decreasing to healthy ranges, triglyceride ratio still around 1; and hs CRP 0.5 from 2.8 (inflammation low). My Triglycerides remained the same when I added carbs, despite LDL dropping. I have labs to prove it. Also CAC score normal and i have been ketovore for over 4 years.
Hello Nicholas, I've been enjoying and learning from your videos. I'm a fit and healthy 57 year old who follows a low carb diet. While it's not ultra low it's between 50-75 grams of carbs/day. My recent blood work indicated triglycerides of 35, HDL of 93 and LDL of 160. While I don't technically fit the "textbook" definition of LMHR because my LDL is below 200, is the definition flexible enough so I could be considered to have a relatively healthy lipid panel? Of course my cardiologist is recommending statins, which I'm reluctant to take because my HBA1C is 5.7 and I don't want my insulin resistance to get worse. But, maybe my A1C numbers are artificially skewed high because I take high doses of vitamin C daily. That's a conversation for another forum, however.
Layne's PhD is way bigger than yours. It could easily crush yours. I have never in my life seen such a huge PhD. You should give up. His PhD is really insurmountable, and trying to out-PhD him is a hopeless task.
Lol. Got me for a sec 🤣. Yes, the value of a PhD correlates perfectly with the number of times one bring it up in conversation. He might have the record for the biggest PhD ever.
Nutritionists and medical professionals are going to have a real uphill battle debating with real, evidence based science. This is a legendary breakthrough forming in front of our eyes. Blessings.
Hey Nic, I like your content and your attitude. I am also interested in learning more about science, do you have recommendations of books in areas such as human physiology, biochemistry, and statistics? Also, do you consider teaching us how to read scientific paper from time to time? That would be hugely beneficial to the public, otherwise, you cannot possibly debunk all bad papers, might as give the public the tool.
"o you consider teaching us how to read scientific paper from time to time?" -- will consider... it's the kind of this that comes with experience and it's hard to do a 'master class' on, but thanks for the comment. It's not the first time someone has suggested this. But it's something that, if done, would need to be a course
I watch a lot of his content and he is generally not against the researchers (like yourself). Generally more against people taking research and drawing conclusions they shouldn't (like you said, conclusions the researches aren't making themselves). I think you guys should actually be allies. Hope you have talked through this over the last 7 months.
I’ve tried … a lot. He’s been quite resistant. I’ve been very clear I’m happy to “Buddy Buddy” with him. However, I will correct the record where he’s wrong and I will not stand for flagrant bullying. Simple.
I have lost all respect and have stopped listening to anything Layne touts. I think he's an arrogant bully. Honestly I could care less about his interpretation of your work.
Your studies and the information you are trying to share with the public is so important and helpful. I truly believe this will one day change the way we see the whole lipid/cholesterol model. I am a LMHR and finally have an explanation for what has been going on with me. Thanks for all you do and keep up the great work!
'arrogant bully' seems like an accurate description based on the behavioral data provided
Pathological bully.
Oreos are healthy ❤
@@MPiKMS72 hard to argue with that
I could have told you that back when he cheated on his pregnant ex-wife and then gaslit her on social media. Dude is a complete narcissist, just a terrible person.
Layne's goal is social media attention, drama works. Your audience isn't into that, we want to follow your research and learn the truth together.
Thank you. I do need to set the record straight on occasion.
True. I do like that he apparently tries to correct misinformation, I don't necessarily like his presentation. His way of trashing others probably mainly appeals to people who don't want to be educated in the first place, but who want to feel superior over others.
Late to the party but just said the same thing to Nick.
The bigger issue is people constantly driving his publicity. He is a troll, a marketer, and he doesn’t care about the data. He wants views, arguments, and controversy. He repeatedly shows this with his way of interacting with others. If everyone stopped giving him attention he would fade away.
Exactly. He's in the UA-cam game to make money.
And you think this guy is different huh?
@@jaeLAX23 Nothing wrong with that, to be fair!
@Corkfish1 Nick is definitely different, he is not selling anything.
@@jaeLAX23Self promotion is also "sales!"
Personally, I think you were being kind giving him a “D” in lipid knowledge.
Yeah…. I’d more inclined to award an F for f***wit….
I couldn't agree more, Nick! Thank you for calling out this arrogant bully!
you're welcome
Layne Norton is a clown. Lame Norton was Bart Kay's moniker for him and I believe it fits him well. I suspect Dr Don Layman is embarrassed by his stupidity. I have made several comments about his debating you knowing he will never agree to that. Keep up the great work Dr Norwitz you are one of the few researchers we can all trust.
Layne will never debate Nick because he knows he is intellectually out-matched.
I think Layne would rather challenge Nick to a weight-lifting competition. 😂
@@catcan221 Now that I could see!!!!!
Bart is a freaking savage.
yea ive listened to Don Layman and he's night and day a breath of fresh air compared to Layne. Plenty of disagreements
Thank you, thank you, thank you Nick! There are a lot of people who I disagree with who don’t rub me the wrong way but Norton is exactly what your colleague said: a bully. I would call him something worse but let’s just keep things simple. Norton has long been needing a major humbling.
Agreed
We need him to call out all these carnivore, keto, vegan, unqualified zealots who make all or nothing claims about the narratives they’re pushing. Those people need to be humbled
And I really don’t think he was harsh about this topic and in fact quite humble, especially for Layne. He didn’t say anything to discredit this research and in fact did praise it
But I do agree though that it is frustrating that he won’t accept a discussion. It would be immensely beneficial for us viewers that are not formally educated in nutritional science.
@codyfrisch4378 I don’t see your lives as utter BS lol. But I think carnivore influencers declaring vegetables or fruits are bad for you and it’s the way humans are meant to live is BS. It works for some, makes other feel horrible and there is zero data to support it long term. Just like being vegetarian, just like being vegan.
@@bobkiaiehumble are you having a f****** girafffe the boy has major delusions of grandeur!
@codyfrisch4378 Religion has saved the lives of many people, no matter the religion, yet each insists they're the only 'correct' religion. Diet zealots are similar and with just about as much fact to back it up. As today's SM victim, Dr. Norton likes to say, when protein and calories are equated, all diets are equally effective. I feel the same way about these diets as I do or people saved by religion, I'm glad it worked for you, but I don't need you to try and save me with it.
Lame Norton and Attia are birds of a feather. They make their careers as YT influencers. So when someone comes along with a significant game changer in the world of metabolic health, they suffer from classic professional jealousy by making others look bad to make themselves look good. And it's backfiring on them.
Norton for sure, Attia i guess significantly more mild based off what I've seen
@@Prawnzih yeah attia is not as bad as Norton but is still a close minded shill imo. He was rude and acted without class when he had the well respected professor seyfried on his podcast.
Yes they're both social media influencers but Dr Attia works in a very, very lucrative specialty longevity practice.
What's wrong with Attia? Ive heard of him & seen snippets but don't know enough on him.
Love that you added the stethoscope lol. Good work as always!
😁
Have listened to Layne for a bit but have had my doubts about him. This video was informative. You just gained a new subscriber!
Welcome aboard!
@@nicknorwitzPhD thank you sir!
@@nicknorwitzPhD also, do you have any videos talking about seed oils? Curious as to your thoughts on this topic.
Nick, this is great. So well done. You are a stand up guy. Lane, on the other hand, is an arrogant "know it all" clown of epic proportions. Thank you Doc. Keep up the great work. It is SO appreciated!
Thanks!
He declined a debate because he’s not interested in the truth or understanding. He is simply seeking attention. It doesn’t serve this purpose to debate you especially if it could lead to him looking intellectually inferior.
Not an unreasonable hypothesis...
@@nicknorwitzPhD which is why he is not deserving of your attention or feedback. Stop addressing him, he is not your concern. Your mind is better served elsewhere.
@@mjr7991 I disagree, this is very refreshing content
@@thehealthofash my view is Nick doesn’t need to convince everyone, just the right people. Layne isn’t one of them. Like everyone, Nick has limited time and resources. If he doesn’t do a lot of these then fine I guess. But he does have a huge task at hand that will likely take several years to breakdown barriers. Keep in mind the whole sat fat story began in the 1960s and is still with us today despite advances in our ability to monitor and track various elements of heart and lipid health. The medical industrial complex will fight him all the way and there is no guarantee he will prevail.
First comment agree 100% anyone that knows their stuff bionic Lane will run a mile using his powers off course.
Very informative! Wow. Love it.
Very welcome :)
Thank you so much Nick for what you do you and your colleagues change lives around the world for the better
appreciate this!
Nicely done. The algorithm sent me his review; I try to keep an open mind, but I did think his response was weak, and I wondered what you would make of it. It was nice to see some of my thoughts reflected in your response, particularly that your n=1 result is not out of the blue, it's predicted by the model. That's a very different thing.
Yay algo!!!
The roast was hard on this one. My bbq is still smoldering. This was epic.
HA!
Layne is a prime example of how broken the field of 'nutrition' is - I get it, people have spent years studying 'nutrition' and it is a tough pill to swallow that most of what you learned was completely wrong.
It’s because biochemistry and nutrition is controlled by biophysics and light. Layne has no earthly idea about this and probably doesn’t want to know because it would completely crumble his paradigm.
@@laneodom4355Can you elaborate on what you mean regarding the biophysics and light part? This sounds interesting.
The field of nutrition, like almost all fields involving health science, is highly compromised by corporate influence. It's no longer science, it's marketing.
@@VegetaPrinceOfSaiyans 4 days later and no response, so my guess it's something he heard in a podcast that sounded cool and never actually understood, so your question will forever float in the void.
@@wallacebonner7939 Yeah it seems a lot of people back down when pushed for further information or citations. Or just endlessly deflect.
I hope Layne sees this so much
Probably why he blocked me 🙂↕️
Thank you for this Nick. Once again, awesome job. I stopped following Layne almost 6 months ago because I got tired of his whiny approach and ignorant bullying. I’m like many others here… I’m just interested in the truth and the data and the science. His treatment of quite a few people I admire (including Dr. Paul Saladino), in my view, has been completely juvenile. I couldn’t take it anymore and stopped listening to him. I’ve concluded he’s just not a super bright guy. So I’m glad you did this post. Keep it up. I love all of it.
Layne is a Statin Island guy.
Statin Island I love it 😂😂
I am from there! Is he really from there?
Are you serious? I don’t like the guy. But is that true?
Not true.. Illinois
@@terrydevaney8601 It was a pun. Statin/Staten.
Nick thank you for the candour and de-escalation mindset you have brought in trying to get people back to the data and science and away from the passion. It's very common when the fight-flight response kicks in that logic goes away in favour of feelings. Perhaps with the regrettable events Layne is experiencing right now that he isn't thinking as straight as he could be.
Nick is a smart dude, especially applying rule #4 of Saul Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals to hold Layne to account for himself under his “data over feelings” mantra.
Rule #4 is as follows: “Make the enemy live up to their own book of rules.”
Good rule...
Asking for Layne to be humble is like asking for a sound wave to sit still. It wouldn't be what it is if it did so.
Just because he has a degree doesn’t mean that he wasn’t indoctrinated with the wrong information. That or he’s been bought off.
This is true
most likely bought off, he defends seed oils with passion.
@@nicknorwitzPhD You will have to provide an example where you believe Layne is "indoctrinated with the wrong information," other than his review of the LMHR data which is said was "great," I'm not a fan of Layne, but maybe I've been "indoctrinated" with the same wrong information.
Layne is middle of the road. He goes after vegan diets, low fat diets just as much as any other diet. I guess he's part of the establishment.
@@BrunoMalmannThat was ultra disturbing
@@jakubchrobry3701 Let me clarify, the statement was "[having a] degree doesn’t mean that he wasn’t indoctrinated with the wrong information." I meant this is true. It's simply a true statement. It's not actually an accusation of an individual, although there is an implication. It's a statement you could apply to me as well. I have a PhD, but that doesn't mean what I say is gospel.
Oh the incredible irony of touting data over feelings while wearing feelings on his sleeve.
Ordinarily, critical answers do little as they tend to result in “tit for tat” bickering, however I think you are responding in the vain of the ancient wisdom, “answer a fool as his folly deserves, lest he be wise in his own eyes.” You are leveraging these critiques in a tactful and documented manner that will cause others to be cautious about speaking critically. The reason, I believe, that some of these folks won’t debate openly with you. Great job Nick. Love your work! From one LMHR to another 😃
Love this response!
Thanks Nicholas! Finally someone calling this tool out. He does such an insane disservice to your average person trying to research nutrition topics by focusing solely on being contemptuous towards others doing good work.
Just please don’t change the title of this video. You often will post and flip-flop on the title if it is too controversial. Just stand by it.
Great video.
Thanks! Glad you like the title.
Thanks for actually representing the real newer data and explanations of this model.
Also while holding back from Ad-Hominem unlike Layne.
I get that's his schtick at this point, but it's just childish. Especially because he has dragged his feet through the sand with newer developments and theories.
Some holes he tries to poke are warranted. But others is just him misrepresenting realistic ways of thinking, undermining new potential ways of understanding.
Top notch man as always.
Appreciate you!
You can't expect a highly narcistic person to admit when they are wrong or listen to what someone else is telling them, that's not how it works. He is right, you are wrong and he will do whatever mental gymnastics he needs to do, whilst avoiding you because you are clearly rational and highly knowledgeable on the subject, in order to maintain that fuzzy warm delusion. If you expect him to engage in a reasonable and rational fashion you will be sorely disappointed. The way you are handling this is extremely professional and educational for the rest of us, so thank you very much for taking the time to do that.
NB I use the term narcissistic in a descriptive way, I am not diagnosing. I an not saying he has NPD as some people will likely assume. It's similar to saying someone is melancholic vs someone is depressed. Calling someone narcissistic does not mean I am diagnosing them with NPD, any more than calling someone melancholic is a diagnosing someone with depression. Everyone with NPD is narcissistic but not everyone who is narcissistic has NPD.
"The way you are handling this is extremely professional and educational for the rest of us, so thank you very much for taking the time to do that. " - thanks... P.S. I love that you use 'nota bene'
Mr Norwitz, thanks for your videos. I recently have embraced Keto diet for my self. It is working. Now I hear your insights regarding the science of it. Videos like yours make it possible for the truth not to be hindered to the public. Thanks again.
Thanks for your thoughtful and measured response, Dr Nick. I stopped listening to that bully a long time ago. His shirt should read Attention > Data.
That's how he is behaving
It is very likely that Layne has NPD. He can only improve if he becomes self-aware or diagnosed (in which people with NPD rarely get diagnosed because they don't think anything is wrong with them and they rarely ever seek help) and gets long-term therapy for it.
Spot on
And even when they do get therapy it can make them better at faking it unfortunately.
If you open a medical diagnostics textbook an look up Dunning Kruger Effect you'll see a photo of Layne.
That's the most egregious example of Appeal to Authority I remember seeing. Compensating much?
Keep up the good fight, Nick.
Layne has embarrassed himself. This was so avoidable. So much bravado and bluster. He really could do with a touch of humility.
Well delivered on this, Nick. I admire the tone you & Dave have taken throughout this. You're much more patient than most would be!
Appreciate it
"Trust me bro, I'm a pro bodybuilder"
An sufficiently educated individual would probably not take up bodybuilding without atleast making it clear it's a personal thing and not recommended
cuz you know. overworking your body probably isn't healthy
@@MallchadI don't think anyone becomes a pro bodybuilder with the intent of health. Especially in the untested realm.
@@VegetaPrinceOfSaiyans A professional bodybuilder? probably not.
way too many people think that casual bodybuilding is a good idea for health though
@@Mallchad Physical activity is inarguably a healthy thing, we have tons of research on it. And from what I've seen, more coming on muscle strength associations with longevity.
@@VegetaPrinceOfSaiyans exercise? can be, to varying degrees, depending on the exercise. Bodybuilding isn't one of them. as far as I can tell
I really don't like associative studies though they do not provide much insight.
I also commented on his video that he did not explain his position using the lipid energy model.
I think it's important to remember that most people won't listen to information unless it's packaged in a digestible way. Layne is abrasive, but he gets people's attention and he debunks a lot of the low-hanging fruit such as the terrible nutrition and exercise misinformation from other UA-camrs, chiropractors, and gurus. In longer interviews, Layne shows that he cares about being accurate and not misrepresenting data as much as possible and he remains teachable. I used to not like Layne Norton and he won me over after awhile. It's important to examine multiple sources of credible information and all things, so I definitely take everything Layne says with a grain of salt.
More than anything, a proper explanation usually takes hours, it's basically impossible to condense information without misrepresenting or omitting something. I love how PHDs are able to have open discourse and give correction to each other here on UA-cam, it's a great thing! It's a shame to hear Layne is being resistant to said correction from peers
Dude that’s how you dismantle an argument, hats off to you sir. Too many ppl attack aggressively in videos like this and it turns into a highschool shit talking match instead of “here’s why this person is wrong.”
Norton and Attia are the same personality type. Their mental capacity lacks any ability to admit being wrong. You can actually see it in their face.
your intuition serves you well
I mean... Layne has videos where the whole subject is times he got stuff wrong, but sure go off
I am waiting for a tweet where he admits he was wrong this time. Just admitting he got LMHR wrong, he won't!@@Ryan-wx1bi
@@Ryan-wx1bi That's great! Looks like he is due for a few more of those then!
Attia has changed his stance on quite a few things so what are you going on about?.. Showing the straw in the others eyes?.
No wonder a lot of us assume that PhD actually means Dunning Kruger. My experience when I taught at the local college was the more advanced the degree the less common sense was available. How does that go, science advances one funeral at a time?
Genius Nick fan of your content as a young curious scientist.
Thanks Sebastian
Dear Nicholas Norwitz, please continue in your reasonable manner and don't allow Dr Norton to bait you into an immodest response. Best regards.
that's the plan!
Many have argued the USA debased the currency that a PhD conveys by giving out way, way too many PhDs, many going to people not really having deep knowledge in their field. Layne offers strong support for that theory.
Well I got mine at Oxford and Kevin Bass once told me I did it too quickly so it didn’t count. What happened to him again?
I think its a good idea not to let these folks get away with misinterpreting, misrepresenting your work!
Love this channel and the information it provides, but I love it even more for how you fired back at Layne. Especially after his bully antics against everyone lowcarb, keto, carnivore, or animal based.
I don't like to attack, but I will defend data and I don't like bullies
@@nicknorwitzPhD,
"I don't like to attack ..."
But you do it so well, and are (unfortunately) given so many opportunities to demonstrate that.
@ArcoZakus indeed 100% agreed! Honestly, like a well orchestrated symphony of attacks that deserves a standing ovation.
@@vegeta5402,
Well, I don't think that the "well orchestrated symphony of attacks ... deserves a standing ovation", but the responses from Dr. Norwitz that I have seen might.
Thanks@@ArcoZakus
We appreciate that the "Oreo vs statins" study result was not explained because it was not understood. Many tests have results which are unexplained, but usually some health influencer will "know" the answer. Using "selective data" to verify opinions and conjecture is the curse of health videos.
I concur! I wouldn't have as polite if I gave a detailed review of him
For many personalities, including Dr Norton, it's clear that the notion of a paradigm shift is tantamount to moving their sand castle . . .
Beautifully spoken, fellow human.
Just curious you’re referring to a paradigm shift in which area? The topic discussed in this video or something else? Because I notice Layne Norton dismisses anything which is different from what he learnt. Anything from fasting for weight loss, carnivore diet, or the carbohydrate insulin model instead of energy balance model.
Great job with this response!!!
Thanks!
I listened to about 5 minutes of him talking to Thomas DeLour the other day and had to turn it off after seeing how emotional, sarcastic and condescending he was, right off the bat. It seems he cares more about his ego than objective reality
Same
Yeah Layne is sadly one of many nowadays who only have a degree to make it easier for him to win argument, not caring if his points are actually true, this is an really pathetic ego especially since many believe him despite him not caring about the whole truth and only what benefits his ego of being the one "who knows"
Dr. Mike is also the same way on a Lot of nutrition topics
Yes Dr Norwitz. Your lookin real good. Stethoscope, scrubs etc. Like an MD! Don't sweat Lame Norton. If he has any questions, or expresses any skepticism, just refer him to Prof Bart Kay. He will take care of him...
Don't worry. I didn't sweat this... took me 15 minutes during lunch at the hospital. ~30 if you include watching Layne's coverage on 2X speed. Not a big effort. I outsource editing.
Just lose the prof title. Dude is just a fraud
@russbrown6453 Bart Kay is not who you think he is. He has made erroneous mistakes in the past. Yes, he has. To people with zero competence, he looks extremely competent. To anyone with intermediate level understanding of stats and science? He looks like a clown, partly. Proving that Bart has misunderstood certain things doesn't require a debate. What's required is only common sense, application of logic and a decent reasoning mind.
@@andreasmelkersson3592The funniest thing about BK is when he claims others have an axe to grind, not him.
@@markaguilera493 Yup! I think his audience overestimates Bart's competence and intelligence. Bart is by no means the guy who you ask when you wanna be absolutely sure about something.
I think his diagnosis traps him. Not saying this to be rude. But his diagnosis prevents him from interpreting concepts from a multi-dimensional point of view.
I glance over the fact you're a real guy with a real career and a real degree.
I tend to confuse "entertainer" nick with a fake version that doesn't exist without the collective substance that brought you into this point, showing how much your presentation of cascades of information that uncovers overlooked, extant and oftentimes buried data.
Being serious for a second, you're showing a lot of serious engagement with a guy blatantly arguing in bad faith over data that he doesn't agree with, and decides to harass you for reasons beyond my comprehention.
Thank you for not stooping down to his level and making it into a petty childish slapfight. I would totally drop acid with you, having your interest expand to neurology and entheogen culture would be so cool!
Sincerely,
A big fan, and a bit of an admirer!
Nick 'The Karate Kid' Norwitz taking on the physically formidable Dr Layne Norton. Keep the fight just science and get some of that green powder haha. Andre
Tried to sweep the leg. But… 😉
@nicknorwitzPhD You have a intellect that has people like Dr Brewer involved for a reason. I like your honesty and the way you try to convey science yet not getting caught in the weeds. Keep it up sir. Andre
@@nicknorwitzPhD Dr Norton has a fantastic success rate treating weight loss and he has a place, he is a role model as a athlete and I obviously stay out of this you two got going on. Both of you two are way out of my league, I support you both. Reduce visceral fat!!!! Andre
Layne is the clear example of what the big Richard Feiyman said: "Never confuse education with intelligence, you can have a PhD and still be an idiot" . He blocked me from everywhere because I was trying to debate him that CICO is a poor model in humans , and that LEM is a great investigation area.
He blocked me too.
He was right to block you
Sorry to ruin your fairy tale but Feynman was a bully, probably more so than Mr Norton. He was more methodical, prepared his pranks better and truly humbled his adversaries. The very fact that he called anyone idiot is a big clue :) And I think he was awesome if only because of that.
@sebastianhoracioforondagon8813 Because Bart Kay regurgitators are quite tiring, that was probably the reason.
Regurgitation is warranted when it’s factual. @@andreasmelkersson3592
I'm so glad I found this video! I have had some sideways responses from Layne after asking what I thought were relevant questions I posted in his comments on some of his videos. I unsubscribed to his channel as I feel he is extremely condescending to say the least, I guess now bully makes a lot of sense. It's very rare to achieve records in a sport and stay humble, maybe arrogance, not confidence, is part of the formula to perform at a high level in powerlifting? Thank you for sticking to science! As someone who was 280LBS in 2020, now 180 about 15% BF, I'm always looking to educate myself with a calm, rational look at the facts.
GO YOU!!!
Game, Set, and Match 👍
I am interested in how this story will develop long term. Regardless of whoever is right, science shall win!
5:08 "drastic drop of LSD from Oreos" - I'm thinking about what Layne was taking at that time 😂😂😂😂
Good for a giggle.
@@nicknorwitzPhD maybe his parents "did too much LDS in the sixties".
From my understanding, TG are rising in a chronically hyperinsulinaemic state ONLY AFTER the fat cells starts getting trouble in "sucking in" these TG and storing these...
Maybe Layne should offer you his PhD...
If LDL damaged the endothelium then we would see the same problem in veins that are seen in the arteries. LDL particles travel through both blood vessels. Veins have the same endothelium as arteries. But atherosclerosis does not happen in the veins.
That's because arteries are subject to much greater pressure and those shear forces are what contribute to arterial damage.
@@brett6468 LDL is not the culprit, but excess LDL is.
@@Corkfish1 Correct. Which means LDL is not a culprit of cardiovascular disease.
@@Corkfish1 Disagree. There are many examples of people like Nicholas Norwitz who have LDL levels in the hundreds yet have no heart disease. And there are also many people with low LDL levels who still have heart disease and die from heart attacks.
@@brett6468 of course there are exceptions. Go ahead and tell a 60 year old with high LDL and a calcium score of 500 not to bother with a Statin.
Well said Dr. Nick. Data over feelings!
I feel like I should get some of the revenue from those shirt sales, lol!
Be a distributor and then I will buy one from you. Hahaha.
And Alo is worst than Layne
Your messaging is resonating more and more with me .. the Oreos prediction was cool. That’s not to say I’m giving up my statins .. I’d be too worried about plaque build up …
Never heard about this guy, but I'll tell you something: people I know who emphasize messages like "Data > feelings" or "I don't have opinions, I just consume data" are usually very very sensitive with most of their feelings and emotions.
... and remember kids: don't take your oreos or your LSD will drop to a level where you can't hallucinate feelings over data
I wish I could hit the "thumbs up" button a million times. ❤
You can.
It just toggles rather than increments the counter. But it feels good. (I wonder whether that activity shows up in any statistics provided by yt to video owners, even if it does not increment the counter?)
I do it occasionally on some of my favorite music videos, though I have never actually reached a million.
I stopped clicking on anything that has Layne Norton's name on it quite a while back, this video excluded obviously. I've recognized him as a bully for some time. Layne seems to like being the smartest person in the room, or at least pretend to be. The reason he will not debate Nick is because in a room with the two of them, he would clearly be the least intelligent by a large volume. Some people get their 15 minutes of fame and with efficient marketing, extend it over a lifetime. Layne seems to be one of those people.
I like how Layne says “ I literally have a PhD”. LoL. Literally. He’s a tool. When somebody says that to me, I usually just turn off, And move on.
keep in mind Layne is just a nutritionist as if that means something these days
@dsonyay,
"... a nutritionist as if that means something these days"
It certainly DOES mean something to me these days:
"The origins of the anti-meat message with Dr. Gary Fettke - Diet Doctor Podcast" -- Diet Doctor
2019-10-08 ( 55: 29 )
( Search: 8e1hoIFzn4Y )
"Belinda Fettke - 'Nutrition Science: How did we get here?' " -- Low Carb Down Under
(dietitians)
2019-11-09 ( 23: 03 )
( Search: FTe-eitOJGA
"3 Things to Know about Registered Dietitians! [Michelle Hurn, RD]" -- KenDBerryMD
2023-04-04 ( 48: 41 )
( Search: ut7lZP3QHrc
Most nutritionists that I know that have huge customers haven't lost any weight, that I can notice. Most of them are pushing carbs. I am at the gym 6 days a week, a carnivore, and 68 years old.
And they also push fat.
Dr. Norton make a mistake in the video saying that LDL cause damage to the endothelium, that how little he knows about the pathophysiology of atherosclerosis because the insult to the endothelium is due to the inflammation and the LDL get trapped with the cells involved in the "fixing". Keep doing a
Great job Dr Norwitz
Correct. If LDL damaged the endothelium then we would see the same problem in veins that are seen in the arteries. LDL particles travel through both blood vessels. Veins have the same endothelium as arteries. But atherosclerosis does not happen in the veins.
yeah. what a genius. LDL damages the endothelium that's _supposed_ to be permeable to lipids so it can shuttle nutrients _rolls eyes_
it's also not supposed to be oxidised which is fairly significant
Layne is the smartest Guy in the room, just ask him.
Norton is a self-generated social media character and "influencer," desperate to be considered a true academic. He fundamentally lacks the ability to be humble, nuanced, thoughtful and reflective. Too bad we live in a time when only the loud and brash get clicks. Sadly, the average American is also complicit and has fully lost the ability to find the signal through the noise. The movie 'Idiocracy' is playing out in real life.
brash figures like this are self-limiting. Example: I used to be a fan of Peter Attia. No longer, as his character became obvious over time.
Love this - spot on!!
Thanks ❤
I don't understand these "science based" guru/influencers. Even if they think the LEM and LHMR are wrong, why not join in the research to prove it one way or the other. It is perhaps one of the most important human health issues on the planet.
Good comment
This is great pullback.
I'd give Layne some time, he will have chat with you. It does appear his mouth ran away from his brain in this occasion.
The top comments read like bunch of spoiled little girls who were stared the wrong way.
Layne will fuel his influence even more from that weak energy. If you think he is bully you have not left your fairytale castle.
Some of the most genius and resourceful people in science and engineering were worse (Feynman so nicely brought up was really a bully, Shockley was a bully, Edison was a bully).
We need both his kind and the soft spoken nerd kind to go forward.
80% of people could never keep attention to the kind of accademic and concise delivery of nerd. Even some who are really smart.
I honestly appreciate Layne for going as hard as he does after the real charlatans on the web. He does that very well. IMO
He did make some mistakes in his analysis of these studies and he should have called in some help from a cardiologist or lipidologist. However, his advice based on these studies was not that bad, but I did not see any comments cite him on that: A lean person with perfect blood markers on keto probably has a lower chance of health issues later on than that same person with high LDL-C.
I am sure the researchers would agree that very high LDL-C in LMHR is unlikely to be completely risk free as saying otherwise is an absolute statement not (yet) supported by the data.
The LMHR stuff is hardly convincing as of now to use as a tool for personal assurance. The massive amount of data from thousands of people showing quite clear signal that Apo-B can not be ignored, even on lean and fit individuals. Who cares there are 1 in 10000 people who are unaffected? And you only truly find out if you lived to old age with high LDLc. Most probably do not.
As if there do not exist ways to be low carb, eat meat, eat plant and have the Apo-B (along with LDLc) in check. Why it has to be black and white - an American thing?
Even harder fact to ignore that people who exercise a lot can get a way with some pretty bad habits and still live to old age in good health.
Layne was ignorant on assessing their work, but he does give much better grounded advice on how to live healthy and long.
@@ThingsYoudontwanttohear I think this is the point of Nick's research. We cannot say that, "a thin healthy person on keto with low LDL is *probably* at lower risk than a thin healthy person on keto with high LDL." The answer to that is: we don't know because we have not studied lean healthy people on keto with high LDL. Those studies are currently under way. Until these studies are complete, we can make no claim, and offer no probabilistic reference, for whether high LDL increases risk, reduces risk, or has zero effect on risk in an otherwise healthy, lean, long-term ketogenic person.
And like so many out there, I am keenly interested in seeing the results when they are published. ❤
@@ketolomicsI think you are putting the bar too high.
Would you say that we also cannot say that a lean person on keto will probably not survive intense dose of radiation that has been shown to be deadly on subjects of all shapes and sizes while on various diets, but not on lean keto dieters?
@@ThingsYoudontwanttohear You pose what's known as a "straw man" fallacy. I pose an argument (unknown effects of high LDL in lean, otherwise healthy individuals following ketogenic nutrition). You distort the argument (comparing LDL risk to radiation risk) and then criticizing me for claiming that radiation poses no risk to people based on diet.
Radiation poses known, mechanistic risk via cellular and DNA damage. LDL, meanwhile, exhibits widely differing associations with, for example, atherogenesis or MCI (myocardial infarction). The correlation between LDL and MCI is poor (something like 25% shared variance). A large element of LDL-related risk appears to be attributable to metabolic status (especially chronic hyperinsulinemic heteroglycemia). The metabolic status of the individual is indicated by elevated fasting insulin but also by elevated TAG (>80 or so) and low HDL (under 50 or so).
Whereas radiation poses invariant risk (high doses are always destructive), LDL appears to be high sometimes in people of great age and health (see, e.g., the Leyden study) but low often times in people with early-onset cardiovascular disease.
So, yes: I am suggesting that due to the overall metabolic profile of long term, whole food, ketogenic nutrition, it is plausible that they may reveal lower, not higher, risk of heart disease.
This is further supported by the fact that KD enhances antioxidant status (via free radical scavenging, lowered mitochondrial ROS production, lowered glycolytic ROS production, increased mitochondrial turnover, and increased antioxidant enzyme synthesis - catalase, SOD, peroxyredoxin, glutathione, etc), through enhanced vascular endothelial cell function (tight junctions, stem cell stabilization, enhanced omentin-1 function, etc), through enhanced elimination of cellular debris (upregulated autophagy) through reduced pro-inflammatory and increased anti-inflammatory function (lowered NLRP3 inflammasome assembly, decreased M1 macrophage State and increased M2 macrophage state, etc).
Importantly, KD recapitulates the metabolic state of semi-starvation that is the hallmark of lifespan maximization across every species of animal we have tested - canonically characterized by persistently low activity along the insulin-insulin like growth factor signaling pathway.
So, yes, I think the jury is out on high LDL in lean, otherwise healthy individuals whose LDL rises substantially but stably during long term (>1 year), whole food, ketogenic (BOHB > 1.0mmol) nutrition.
Plausible. Experimental data will help elucidate the relationship and the underlying mechanisms of action.
Good luck on your health journey! 🌄
I wish I was 1/2 as articulate as you. Great presentation skills.
Thanks:)
Data are nice but often when it comes to interpretation of data we can bring in things like feelings. I have noticed an association between really big muscles and a really big ego. What should we make of this association?
👏👏👏
Layne is what polite folk call a charlatan.
Yes
Why do you have a goddamn stethoscope on man lmao
Because he is in Harvard Medical School.
Great job Nick! Too bad you have to spend your precious time on it....
Believe it or not this took 30 minutes of my time. Outsourced edited makes life as an active researcher and med student easier… oh what it would be to have all the time “certain” people do to make UA-cam video… surprised they can’t do a better job if it’s their actual job 😂
I'm really enjoying the Carnivores vs Layne arc.
Where will it go next?
Maybe Dr. Norton will gain some humility? (I am not holding my breath.)
What do you think about the hypothesis that lean mass hyper-responders (and possibly others) may have lower LDL on oreo's because the percentage of glycosylated and oxidized "LDL" fatty acids rises signaling the liver to reduce LDL to compensate, and conversely that people with lower percentages of oxidized and glycosylated LDL can have higher LDL levels without it being a problem?
If someone on the internet sells t-shirts as abusiness model, then it does not matter the topic in which they are active. Everything they do is marketing and sales. In this case, saying that everyone is not following the science is the sales angle (it's a popular one these days, because 95% of people don't understand the scientific process but they pretend they do).
Ultimately what do you envision will be the practical applications of your model. I just want to know what and what not to eat to be healthy.
UA-cam is the only social media platform where I have an account, so I never visit Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, etc. Seeing those rude and mean social media posts by Layne was surprising to me. For the past several months, I've been subscribed to his channel and watched his "What the Fitness" videos each Friday. But, no longer. I've just unsubscribed. I figured Layne was just playing a character in his videos, but those social media posts of his seem to indicate he's really not a nice person. Plus, apparently, he doesn't know as much as he claims. Humility > Ego
My LDL did drop with the addition of 100 carbs a day after my carnivore diet showed a big increase in my LDL to 313. My HDL 89, Triglycerides 90. My cholesterol was always a little bit high but within a normal range and ratios always very good. But when I started low carb and then carnivore my cholesterol shot up (ratios still good). I added carbs (sweet potato) and on my next blood draw three months later, my LDL decreased over 75 points. I don't know about this working better than a statin, but as a 57 year old woman who is on no medications and my health appears to be improving as evidenced by AIC and insulin decreasing to healthy ranges, triglyceride ratio still around 1; and hs CRP 0.5 from 2.8 (inflammation low). My Triglycerides remained the same when I added carbs, despite LDL dropping. I have labs to prove it. Also CAC score normal and i have been ketovore for over 4 years.
LDL-C of 240 is still insanely and dangerously high.
with near 5 years low carb, my CAC still zero, and monitoring. @@erastvandoren
Hello Nicholas, I've been enjoying and learning from your videos. I'm a fit and healthy 57 year old who follows a low carb diet. While it's not ultra low it's between 50-75 grams of carbs/day. My recent blood work indicated triglycerides of 35, HDL of 93 and LDL of 160. While I don't technically fit the "textbook" definition of LMHR because my LDL is below 200, is the definition flexible enough so I could be considered to have a relatively healthy lipid panel? Of course my cardiologist is recommending statins, which I'm reluctant to take because my HBA1C is 5.7 and I don't want my insulin resistance to get worse. But, maybe my A1C numbers are artificially skewed high because I take high doses of vitamin C daily. That's a conversation for another forum, however.
Increase fat, lower protein that is.
Layne - Intellectual standard? Hahahahahahahahahahaha!
Layne's PhD is way bigger than yours. It could easily crush yours. I have never in my life seen such a huge PhD. You should give up. His PhD is really insurmountable, and trying to out-PhD him is a hopeless task.
Lol. Got me for a sec 🤣. Yes, the value of a PhD correlates perfectly with the number of times one bring it up in conversation. He might have the record for the biggest PhD ever.
Nutritionists and medical professionals are going to have a real uphill battle debating with real, evidence based science. This is a legendary breakthrough forming in front of our eyes. Blessings.
No it's not.
Low carb diets are unhealthy. That's why it increases ldl.
Mainting a healthy body weight doesn't undermine high ldl
What BS. All this biased clown showed was that eating carbs was GOOD FOR PEOPLE. Funny for a Keto prick.....
Hey Nic, I like your content and your attitude. I am also interested in learning more about science, do you have recommendations of books in areas such as human physiology, biochemistry, and statistics? Also, do you consider teaching us how to read scientific paper from time to time? That would be hugely beneficial to the public, otherwise, you cannot possibly debunk all bad papers, might as give the public the tool.
"o you consider teaching us how to read scientific paper from time to time?" -- will consider... it's the kind of this that comes with experience and it's hard to do a 'master class' on, but thanks for the comment. It's not the first time someone has suggested this. But it's something that, if done, would need to be a course
LDL is pretty much meaningless as a marker for CV risk unless you have sub-fractions.
He also gets an "F" in humility, which is the main factor for learning more than others about reality...
This is bloody brilliant, bravo. 😂
Perfectly done!!
I watch a lot of his content and he is generally not against the researchers (like yourself). Generally more against people taking research and drawing conclusions they shouldn't (like you said, conclusions the researches aren't making themselves). I think you guys should actually be allies. Hope you have talked through this over the last 7 months.
I’ve tried … a lot. He’s been quite resistant. I’ve been very clear I’m happy to “Buddy Buddy” with him. However, I will correct the record where he’s wrong and I will not stand for flagrant bullying. Simple.
Excellent work, keep going.
Great post