How to Play a Morally Gray Character WITHOUT Getting Kicked Out of the Party
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Anytime I've played morally gray, or even evil I've always kept one thing in mind, that I'm in the party for a reason.
It's either because I was paid to keep the party safe, so I act like a bodyguard for a cartel boss.
For my character was on the run, and I'm drafting my defense off of the rest of the party by making myself useful.
My favourite quote from an old character I played in Barovia goes:
"When I fail, fronts fall; when I hesitate, warriors die; when my judgement clouds, the assets that could win a war are instead wasted, miring the conflict in for years.
I cannot afford to heed my humanity, for what is asked of me is thoroughly inhuman."
I had one a bit like this...We've been attacked by pirates. It's been a long battle, but our rogue/monk finally gets the drop on the pirate captain... And totally misses. He downs her with a cursed sword. I go to help, stabilize her and hold him off but then also go down. By this point though the party arrives and saves us.
Captain: "All right, I surrender. Four against one just ain't fair."
I conjure a firebolt. "I was not aware it had to be fair."
Cool motive, still murder.
Bro that's hard as fuck
@@sethb3090 "I was not aware it had to be fair" meanwhile bro was using a cursed sword. he thought he stood a chance against a few people, but at soon as it's four he chickens out? nah, i'd slaughter.
@@ImrahilToChaosIt ain’t a war crime if it’s the first time
I was disgusted by the lack of a spoiler warning, people may not have had time to learn what morally grey is and now you've spoiled it for them. /s
Oh man, you might be right I messed up
Can I ask what he spoils exactly? I would like to know before he says it
@@flubbajubb4958I am not sure if you get the joke and play along, or missed the joke entirely.
@@PalleRasmussen I haven't watched the video yet, and I want to avoid spoilers for whatever this comment is talking about
@@flubbajubb4958 I am still unsure if you are joking.
I will assume that you are not, and try to explain. Cause I like to be helpful when I can, and the hours a day combating Muscovite Trolls is driving me insane- I need to be non-aggressive and kind.
Do you follow this channel? Have you seen all the angry comments about spoilers that eventually turned into a joke? That eventually turned into the joke you are replying to?
hearing the words "older shows, like Supernatural and Stargate" just caused me to age 100 years in 5 seconds
Yyyyup...
@@talscorner3696watching the actors at panels learn there are fans who are younger than the show is hilarious
@@AceTaxiaGaming yeah xD
Time to get in your healing sarcophagus.
@@PaulGuy for real, mate xD
i usually play morally gray characters as the "all business" type. im playing a bard right now who is a salesman type. he is charasmatic and sly and will do almost anything for gold...but thats because at his lowest moment, he made a deal with a demon who would give him great success in his life, but only as long as he kept gaining gold. his charisma stat was literally linked to his bank account, so when he joined the party and they ended up ruining some of his deals he got really mad and dropped his friendly face. thats when they got to see how desperate and scared he was. he was fun to play
that sounds super fun!!
I tend to play mind as the one willing to get thier hands dirty so the rest of the goodie two shoes can keep their squeaky clean ideals. Captured bandit won't talk? Give me an hour alone, "yeah guys the base is here"
Charisma is linked to your bank account, because "Money talks."
So the character sold his soul for power, and he keeps working in order to gain more power disregarding others. The character is acting on selfish motivations, unless he'd be up to willingly sacrifice power to do the right thing, then he's downright evil. Lawful evil.
@@ulurius pigeonholing someone else's character into a specific alignment 🤢
Well, Geralt in the thumbnail ends the books noblebright hero, his world is grey, the situations are grey, but he goes out of his way to be good. Others choices force him to kill, but he doesn't choose darkness or grey actions
Geralt is trying hard to keep up the masquerade of him being a "grey hero", but he's what you described - a noblebright hero
Yeah, Geralt pretends to be an edgy antihero but we all know he's good at heart.
Best described by himself in his quote about evil.
“Evil is Evil. Lesser, greater, middling… Makes no difference. The degree is arbitary. The definition’s blurred. If I’m to choose between one evil and another… I’d rather not choose at all.”
Geralt is literally moral on the inmoral world of Magic
I think if he was grey he would choose gold instead of . . . Family
@@pelipoika88then in the same story he goes ahead a chooses the lesser evil that turned up to be the greater evil. It's shocking how Geralt's hypocrisy lost on people
My favorite character I’ve ever played was a Jack the Ripper-esque cleric “doctor”. Older gentleman, very friendly and pleasant. Always takes others into consideration and looks out for them. However, being lost in the feywild for much of his childhood gave him a morbid curiosity of how creatures/people “tick”. I would attempt to perform vivisections on enemies, keeping them alive with Spare the Dying. I would never kill, just poke around they’re insides, maybe borrow an unnecessary organ for our Warforged Ranger (we had a strange Pinocchio and Gipedo dichotomy, I was convinced I could make him a “real boy”). My party was so torn lol
That sounds awesome tho
Balling at the low, low cost of the enemies’ internal organs XD
Yea, this is objectively not morally grey. Being friendly but also doing horrific disgusting things still makes you bad haha, “niceness” is not a moral factor.
May I borrow the idea for my own character?
So crazy that the answer to a D&D conundrum is, once again, communication
it's wild to me that in a teambuilding game you are required to build your team
In one campaign I played an Orc Monk, basically re-flavored as an underground boxer. His family had been killed by the BBEG and he was on a war path. The rest of the party had their own reasons for going after the BBEG, save the city, save their town, gain wealth, what have you. But My character had one thing on his mind, revenge. By any means necessary. The rest of the group was fairly moral, especially the cleric and paladin, trying to "do what was right" in all things but my character was the one to get their hands dirty. He tortured prisoners, killed in cold blood, he was prepared to sacrifice innocent people. The BBEG had lied their way into ruling a large city, and when negotiations with factions that could help peacefully remove them from power failed, my character showed he was willing to burn the city to the ground if it meant hurting their nemesis. This forced the other factions' hands and convinced them to take the less drastic route. My character thematically butted heads with the party a lot, but we always had the same goal, and I always found a way to move the story forward. But the scenes of inter party drama were pretty fantastic, even if they got heated at times we all still knew we were friends IRL.
Dude your character was evil not Grey
Good lawfully gather evidence
Grey use crime to get real evidence
Evil torture ppl and threaten to burn a city down when talk fails
I think one of the best and lesser appreciated parts of The Punisher was showing how his crusade hurt good people. His friends lamented getting caught in his wake, even though they helped him for the greater good.
Ya, I think that's one of the best things the show does. To often the Punisher Comics just let Frank get away with mass-murder or just absolutely insane shit with barely a hand wave of "did his research" or something equally inane.
It's also something the Witcher (games) does well to. Geralt regularly has his choices, be they good or bad, come back to bite him in a way that really sells the "I'm not trying to be a good guy, just an alive guy".
@@alexzander7629 Well, Geralt IS a good guy, he may not think of himself in that way, but when push comes to shove, he always does the right thing, even at the cost of his life. If that's not the meaning of true heroism, I don't know what is.
@@alexzander7629 Geralt is not really morally grey though. Sure the world he lives in is morally grey, he don't always make the right decisions, but when push comes to shove, he always tries to do the right thing, even at the cost of his life.
If there was ever a phrase that represented the morality gray is the phrase “I not saying he’s right, I saying, I get it.”
Eh. I see morally grey as more of making a decision in a situation where a "right" decision doesn't really exist when other people would just refuse to choose ...which is also a choice.
"There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that."
- Esmeralda "Granny" Weatherwax, Carpe Jugulum by Terry Pratchett.
Thanks for bringing back the how to play "_____" in a TTRPG. Love the great insights. Of course, again, the topic highlights the importance and central aspect of the Session 0 where characters' concepts can be laid bare and players don't get blindsided with their characters.
Man you've been here since that series started! Super happy to bring it back for you!
I'm currently playing in a pf1 Kingmaker game as a white necromancer, and it is by far the most fun I've had with a grey character. They think undead are great tools to be used, and should be used to reduce the amount of work that the lower classes do. However, the majority of my group is Good leaning so they kinda hate that I use undead, and I love trying to get them to see a more utilitarian view on undead.
Geb enjoyer I love it
Jesus the potential of using this archetype as an allegory for AI is crazy
Watch as the upper classes use necromancy to put the commoners out on the streets xD
Why have pesky plebeians do work, when a perfectly compliant, and *cheaper* undead minion, could do the job?
This reminds me of my lizardfolk who will absolutely get into arguments about the morality of eating people. Burials and crypts are just a useless display of wealth to show off one last time after death. If you cared, you'd make some of what they were part of you and carry the weight of their life forward.
That, sir, is the best argument against burials and pro cannibalism I have ever heard. @sethb3090
One of my favorite characters was moraly gray. A Dhampir in curse of strahd. Before he went to Barovia, he was a crime lord disguised as a noble. He started as Chaotic/Evil, but became Lawfull/Neutral by the end.
He was killed by a vampire hunter and when a valkyrie came to collect his soul, he convinced her to give him a second chance to redeem himself. He became a Hexblade Warlock.
The party didn't trust him at first, some hated him because he was cynical and egotistical. And he was the one making some real bad choices that had repercusions for the entire party. By the end, he earned his redemption, but it was a bumpy ride.
He was fun as hell to play...
The Punisher literally has a war code he fallows. It is actually a code very similar to a vengeance paladin’s oath.
I played a goblin paladin once. I took a trait that basically says that due to being lower intelligence, I can break my vows so long as I can justify how my character would see it as upholding his vows. His Goddess understands the intent. I'm not an oathbreaker. I ended up loving the character and didn't abuse it and he was morally gray and I basically got to just use my own morality and be like, "yeah killing these guys immediately was an act of love for the next people they try to rob"
Played an alchemist called Dr. Anders once.
Generally he was a surly and terse talker, and the one person in the circus (pathfinder 2e extinction curse module) who distinctly HATED being there.
My favourite moment was when we were sent to investigate a monastery, and the party complained about Anders starting to loot.
Simply replied with "I don't mind the do-gooding, but I'd like it to be worth my time."
An ulterior, often selfish, motive is an excellent way to gray up your character, even when they partake in heroism.
Anders was also the type of person who considered himself able to perform the necessary evil, and saw a kindred spirit in the party rogue, whom he supplied with high-grade poisons.
Morally gray doesn't mean Lawful Stupid, let's all say it together xD
I once played as an elderly elf who worked as a surgeon for a pretty well off university, thing was… also a necromancer and was very fond of poisons. Out of a love for life and out of a pursuit for knowledge came a need for necromancy to fill the gaps and aid in research. It was very fun and interesting, most fun I’ve ever had roleplaying a character. Extremely morally grey but wasn’t exactly just doing bad things to be bad, even if morally many might see said things as very bad.
Morally grey doesn't equal violent and edgy though. It can be. But at the same time a morally black and white character can be every bit as violent. For example a character might kill a hungry child stealing bread on the morality of stealing=criminal=evil. Black and white morality can be brutal because it lacks nuance. And it can be in conflict with different views of black and white morality. In contrast morally grey actions could be creating a compromise, forgiving a villain, listening to and considering a different viewpoint, choosing joy or passivity over good or evil sometimes, haggling for a discount, or supporting goals of others without benefit to your good. The majority of parties are morally grey. It's the morally black and white ones that are harder to fit in.
My ranger is Neutral good but morally grey.
He's a good man whose moral white is shadowed by a dark cloud of vengeance
He would cut down anyone at the sign of betrayel. He lost the ability to trust, but knows he needs to be practical so he works with others
Valygar, is that you?
@@marcodemarco1159 lol, my guy has issues as he died in his back story for a brief while after being killed by his best friend. He was resurrected but it left an unhealing wound, hes seen as a drunk but he legit drinks as it numbs the pain he feels even when he breathes. Man went on a crusade against the bandits around his home village leaving an arrow through the eye to mock the man who slew him
I had a LOT of luck when playing my morally grey character Fasih.
Like I fully intended on doing the thing where I hid the sympathetic backstory and I was planning on accounting for that by having my guy hiding his less 'publicly acceptable' traits as well (expertise in Deception, and his morality basically boiling down to 'those that hurt and control others deserve to feel every bit of pain they've inflicted 10 times over') but well, introduction to the team happened while he had a concussion so he had disadvantage rolling Deception and Nat 1d, the one character who still beat his expertise was the TN bard who Nat 20d and who decided it'd be more interesting to be a friend to him than expose his bull, and very first plot beat ended up being 'oh no the tavern the soon to be party are staying at is attacked by cultists chasing after the monk' which resonating EXTREMELY well with my guy's own cult based trauma. To the point he was one of the monk's most passionate and empathetic supporters, which earned him a ton of good will from the largely LG party and NPCs on scene as a whole despite being openly ruthless and sadistic about what he'd do to their foes if he got the chance/what kinds of costs were 'acceptable' to put them down (they put it down to my guy just being really passionate in his support/super emotional in general rather than realizing he was being 100% serious).
Cue him ending up as the team's trusted face/smart guy, him mostly being great at it but prone to 'hot headedness'/'thinking only in numbers', lots of arguing with the monk and barb/pally about how to treat any cultists captured/their 'non murdery' general approach to things (my guy would ultimately back off when it came to the monk's enemies since well, 'It's your choice my friend' but he'd keep pushing things so often and get so worked up about it that despite all his lying skills it was pretty obvious to the party that *something* was up even if they weren't sure what), and well, got plenty of time to slow drop hints of Fasih's backstory via way too extreme reactions to things (adamant refusal to ever spar with friends, being so mentally messed up after being Revivified he couldn't talk for a day, being *terrified* of powerful Clerics, etc), him 'totally hypothetically' asking others about how they'd react in certain situations (almost always extremely horrific or morbid), and very VERY rarely him actually opening up about things (usually by accident because he got distracted chatting with his crush or puzzling over how something works, but he did intentionally open up to the bard about a lot so that was something)~
I really like this type of reflective, thoughtful content. Thank you for making it!
A key way to play morally grey is to have a wound that drives both positive and negative traits. For example, characters mistreated when young might be very kind to children or animals in their personal life, while also being violent or manipulative in their professional life. Definitely understanding motivation is key to likeability.
I really enjoy this video. It really help me understand those "Morally Gray" characters. It also helps me have a better idea how to create a one as well. I am looking forward to the next video like this.
My current magnum opus is a morally gray character in the way that he was ultra violent in his youth but now, being in his twilight years, only uses violence to kill those who would kill him. And i already have an idea to naturally give back story if the question comes up
I love playing the character I'm currently playing. Just being a people pleaser. No strong moral compass other than just doing what pleaseas the person with the most power at a certain point. It fucks with me, but not necessarily my character. His motivation is to get his lute back and to feel that his love is returend from his crush. His actions so far have sometimes gone against the party, but I love that it does not allways have to be expressed in a way which screws over the party - it just comes across as power play, but it will get increasinly more interesting as party loyalty builds.
I feel what you are describing is not a morally grey character, but rather an ETHICALLY grey character, cause morales is the individual's principles regarding right and wrong, while this, you are explaining more stuff being ethically wrong, with it being everyone elses view of right and wrong being pushed on a character. Great video by the way
I played a morally grey paladin and he was my best character. He was an oathbreaker and broke the oath of conquest and had hurt many people in the past. So he used his dark power to work outside the tenents of an oath to help people but still able to be free to choose.
This video is perfectly timed as I am just starting to play in Curse of Strahd (after YEARS of wanting to run it but wanting to play it first) where I am playing a Vampire Vengeance Paladin.
In short, he made a deal with a good goddess to hunt all monsters who prey on the innocent (and views himself as one monster) to get vengeance for their blood. He does not care if you are beast, undead, fiend or man. If you hurt an innocent, you will die by his blade. He cares for his companions, but if they cause harm to any innocent, he will not hesitate to destroy them. At his core, he IS a good man, but he doesn't see it, merely that he himself is a monster and hopes to lay his sword down so he can lay his own head on the chopping block.
He is a monster that hunts monsters, so he is cold and distant so when he does eventually die, his death doesn't cause pain.
Thank you! Your comments are really helpful for me. I’ve often mused about the nuances of neutral characters that I’ve played. I’ve even played an evil character ( once and the other players got so upset that they, essentially, forced the DM to set up a confrontation between them and my character and my patron ( I ended up having to figure out how to defeat me and relate pertinent information to the group). Anyways, I like how you set out your arguments. Nice work 👍🏼
I have a lawful evil Paladin. It works great because the deity he follows is also lawful evil. Definitely fun to have people question how my god can stomach me 😂
You actually helped me a lot for my next DnD character. I had an idea but was kind of struggling to really define how he will interact with the other membres of the party.
Make sure you all know how to separate IC and OOC - character conflicts can be great fun for everyone as long as they don't become player-conflicts.
My last grey character was fun. Warlock Scholar who accidentally stumbled into dread knowledge to get her powers. Was very much mainly concerned with her own survival and the acquisition of knowledge over actually giving a shit about heroics or the party (she viewed them as convenient at first). And even though she was on board for "saving the world" by the end, it wasnt about doing good or being a hero. She viewed the party (especially the fighter) as friends by the time the real heavy shit started, and in her words "you're all idiots if you're gonna go fight this thing... but you're my idiots, so i guess im in."
“You don’t have to agree with them, but you understand them.”
See Killmonger, Mr. Freeze, etc.
I almost choked while eating at the beginning, I thought I must have heard wrong and not only fans but then I rewinded slightly back and laughed again. 😂😂
Btw great video, I love playing morally gray characters, it seems like a trope that fits me well so I’m glad to see more stuff for me to improve!
I would love to see more videos like this one!
I play a Dhampir in a world that's like mad max had a baby with a typical fantasy adventure. I wasn't prepared for how quickly my party would just accept my character. I guess in a world where everyone is kind of a monster in their own way, it's a lot easier to accept needing blood. It's better than full cannibalism
An interesting view on morally gray viewpoints. You’ve given me some ideas to try out.
For the last few years I’ve been playing characters that live in the Order vs Chaos range but who discount Good and Evil as unnecessary and harmful extremes. I’ve been fortunate to have groups that have been willing to allow me the space to experiment in this way.
Great video. I agree 110% with what you say toward the end-it's about letting people understand your motivations early on, and having a line you won't cross. If your character has no limits, they will fall to villainy... and if the other players aren't cool with it, you'll only convince them that "shades of grey" characters are terrible. I've watched some people claim to be playing a character as morally-grey and instead play morally-bankrupt, and those games fell to pieces very quickly.
Thank you for including Morrigan in this.
BRO THIS VIDEO IS SO FCKING GOOOOOD, i'm going to send it to the dnd group im dming and also going to apply this when i make a character!
I was thrown for a loop when I heard you talk about Ned Kelly in a ttrpg roleplay video
Woo, 🎉. Another great video 👍
Also, you can have a morally grey character who is good, neutral, or evil. The perception of good or evil is given to an individual from other people. A "good" person is Seen as good by others, the same goes with evil.
I'm playing a morally grey character, and I intentionally crafted her to be grey, while having the same goals as the rest of the party. A "Devil on the side of the Angels" I like to say
In that party we have a lawful good paladin and a true neutral outlaw, who fight side by side for the same purpose. Me and that player accidently made perfect foils for one another, its quite wonderful
I'm planning on playing a morally gray character in a D&D campaign. This video was super helpful. The character I'm going to play is a Drow Druid.
A really helpful video!
I can't believe you spoiled Ned Kelly's story, I hadn't gotten to that part of history yet
I can't believe Jay spoiled the morally Grey character archetype in media. Where's the spoiler warning?
I'm kidding, good video sir. Have a comment for the algorithm
Very very kind of you, but I've learned I actually spoiled the story of Ned Kelly, my b
Star Trek Deep Space Nine has some good morally gray characters, I mean one character was trying to cause a genocide to an entire race of aliens in a time where there was no war. His action that he was trying to do behind everyone's back will also lead to the death of himself and his group, and If you have the context and you were in his shoes you might do the same. (Also for those who know what scene I'm talking about, it's pretty awesome)
The fall of the obsidan order i oresume?
They even have a whole section in a certain art museum (forgot the name) where they had a bunch of Ned Kelly paintings. Definitely a pretty important guy.
My favorite Morally grey character from D&D is Raistlin Majere. While he did end his story in the books as "evil", I never saw him as such. He was honorable to a fault, always trying to ensure he never owed anyone anything. Yes his motivations can easily be looked on as evil, his actions can also easily be seen as good, from a certain point of view. On multiple times he was 100% willing to sacrifice himself for his companions. Yes, on those occasions he was also willing to do so because he didnt want to be bested, and the easiest way of doing so was to take everyone with him, but that isnt always the point.
Willing to do the right thing for the wrong reason doesn't affect your moral compass. If you heal a puppy because you're annoyed by their whining, that wouldn't make you good. Lawful evil character.
These are one of my favorite video types of yours! I clicked the second I saw it
Also your wife was right
damn squirrel
It's always morally justified to bully the wizard.
-Wizard player
My use for grey morality is that a morally grey character will do good for evil or evil for good. I haven’t watched your whole video yet, but good stuff so far
I like to play well-meaning characters who use necromancy or similarly evil kinds of magic. Like, someone who generally wants to help people and do good things, and simply sees these powers as the most effective way to do so.
I really enjoy playing a morally grey character, especially in the game where I currently play as one because (without even saying anything) we all ended up with fairly grey characters. We have a solid overarching story goal, but many of us have alternative motives and almost everyone has thrown a wrench in someone else's plan.
HOWEVER we also talk a lot above board and tend to work on a majority rules system to keep party cohesion. We still make an effort to work together and try to keep a clear line between above/below board.
Grey means pissed off
My favorite type of morally grey characters are the “good people who will do bad things to do good”
Im playing a morally gray character in my current campaign, and its so fun to have our party's paladin approve of my actions one day, then have him want to throw me the other, even though he knows im right anyways
I really like the 'bound demon' sort of moral grey zone. A person or creature that enjoys causing harm, but for some reason is either compelled or clinging to a 'better' moral code than their preference. Like Dexter, or Spike from Buffy.
I love these videos of yours because it shows you can play "problematic" characters if you play them in the right way. Ultimately, it's all about communication, of course, but I like how you show that it's not wrong to want to play these difficult and complex character types as long as you know how to keep things from getting in the way of your party members' fun. I like that you pose examples and encourage the exploration of these characters rather than stating don't do it because you might make your party hate you. Kind of, know what you're doing going in and understand what it is you're looking to achieve. It's very cool.
Sorry(not sorry) we love dancing squirrels so much.
The alignment chart really did have a significant presence in pop culture. I knew what the alignment chart was before I ever knew about D&D.
That wizard knows what he did.
My half drow archer in my current campaign is the only criminal in my overall good party, for most of the campaign i was sort in the background, but there was a point where the team got separated and I was able to be a criminal and it was funny seeing the players watch me interrogate and kill someone for info just to have me meet the party again and say "sup guys" like nothing.
We need a better advocate for the squirrel justice for the squirrel
Ok respect for the Ned Kelly drop. For a fantastic retelling, read The True History of the Kelly Gang by Peter Carey, if u haven’t already
But also, I play a morally grey character in my party and it hasn’t ground things to a halt. He wants the same basic thing as the rest but is more willing to go beyond the line than the others. It only makes for interesting dynamics
im having a blast as a oathbreaker lockadin with the criminal background who uses necromancy basically the party rogue with a portable hole full of skeletons and smites but the life clerics not a fan tho
Another type of morally grey character I've played is one whose status as hero or villain is almost entirely determined by circumstance. My tabaxi way of the long death monk had a very naturalistic worldview kinda outside of traditional concepts of morality. Like you mentioned nature isn't "good" or "evil", in a lot of ways it just is. Her primary goals were to become the best huntress she could and to stay loyal to her clan/family and friends. She did "good" things almost entirely because the people she cared most about (mostly other members of the party, especially her eventual oath-brother) had noble intentions. If they had more nefarious and self-serving goals, she would not hesitate to aid them in that. Actually towards the end of the campaign one of the party members had a deck of many things alignment shift to chaotic evil, and she only cared because he was affecting the harmony of the group and also it was clear this isn't what he would have wanted. She very much would have helped him commit war crimes otherwise. As it stands she was usually the party member who would propose the more direct and violent ways of dealing with problems, methods that often are quite brutal. For instance, others may see pretending to eat your enemies in war as unacceptable, but she simply saw it as an expedient way to demoralize the enemy and end the fighting faster. She'd let the others try their more peaceful methods first, its not like she was philosophically committed to this brutality, but she'd always be ready to play bad cop to their good cop. She did have some basic moral standards, like not targeting children and the like, but outside of that she reasoned that if your life path put you in front of her as an enemy, you've probably done something to earn death
I've definitely had other morally grey characters, and even just fully self-serving evil characters that happen to share goals with the party and aren't of the puppy-kicking disposition (ie, they're helpful, but solely because they want something in return from you to further their own ambitions), but that one is probably my favorite and clearest example. Less any-means-necessary vigilante crusader, more single-minded attack dog thats fortunately been befriended by some heroes.
Enemies of the squirrel are enemies of the audience XD
This drags on filled with it is this, it isn't that it isn't that.... The definition, examples and suggestions for roleplay must be somewhere in the last minute of the video but I got exhausted hearing this never getting to
The first paladin I made was morally gray. He was a vengence paladin convicted in fighting corruption, only to fall after refusing to let his guide corrupt him for the deva's god.
Probably my most morally grey character I’ve played was a homebrewed dhampyr/troll/lycanthrope bioweapon made by a vampire wizard and escaped his lab. He had to devour meat instead of eating blood, leading to basically becoming a bounty hunter who got a meal as well as some coin. Basically a monsterous being that didn’t want trouble but needed to eat so he went for jobs where his hunger was of use. He had a an amazing sense of smell that gave him advantage on perception checks and it helped save many kidnapped children from an evil Piper. However, the seven dwarves mistaking him for a any other monster lead to an unfortunate case of self defense 😂
I have a character planned for a future campaign who’s a morally grey crossbow user (duel wielding hand crossbows + and extra heavy crossbow). They used to be part of a group that was essentially a cult that shunned divinity, and avoided the modern world and industrialisation as much as possible. He did bad things, and was witness to many bad things before the cult was razed by a horde of undead, which he attempted to fight off with a torch he picked up. He managed to hold them off long enough for a few members to run, but before he left his father threw his hand crossbow to him. He now is looking for money, and unconsciously a new family.
The thing that strikes me about Arthur Morgan throughout RDR2 is that he is always honest about who he is. Dutch operates under a self righteous delusion that his theft and murder are for the greater good but Arthur knows it doesn't matter why you do these things the fact you them is bad in and of itself. I think it's because of this honesty that he has a chance to actually be a good person and help people towards the end of his life.
Thanks.
Paladins are a bit more bendable, especially with some of their subclasses being less than heroic in its drive. Oath of Vengeance and Oath of Conquest come to mind. Even Oath of the Crown paladins can serve an evil king.
5:04 my millenial face just went full Matt Damon rapid aging from the end of Saving Private Ryan
From my point of view, you can not simply be evil; evil is a verb. Evil is harm inflicted with intent & awareness that the target can suffer as you would in their position. If your combat encounters typically end with you killing your opponents, & your character is aware that said opponent is a sentient being that knows pain, fear & the concept of death, yours is a morally grey character.
The way I see it something like True Neutral is a character who only really cares about themselves and people close to them, and won't go out of their way to help a stranger unless theres a significant practical reason they should do so, like being paid, or rewarded somehow.
They are indifferent to rules and laws, seeing them only as "Guidelines" so if the rules inconvenience or threaten them and those close to them, they will disregard it, but they dont dislike the idea of rules.
One of my parties has three very different alignments: Good cleric, morally grey fighter, and evil bard. Yet, they work together really well, BECAUSE they have the same goal. And the cleric helps keep us other two in check when we get homicidal (not murder-hoboing, just willing to sacrifice others for our own goals, while the cleric will refuse to leave anyone behind). Not that the bard doesn't consider herself evil, she's just a power-hungry crime boss, plus a spy slowly undermining the city. In my eyes, that does make her evil. The truly grey character is the fighter. His personal motif is unclear, we just know it's something to do with his family, but he is employed by the bard, and doesn't care that this makes him a criminal.
One of my first characters that I consider to be an actual character, instead of a character sheet, was morally grey, kinda. He was honorable and loyal, and held loyalty as the highest virtue one should strive for. He was just loyal to a less than ideal person. And that loyalty came from his honor. The man he served saved his life, so his life was now belonged to that man. My guy ultimately left the party in the middle of the night, after they had collected about half of the macguffins, and took them with him. The whole reason he was with the party, was because his master wanted the macguffins, and knew these guys were collecting them. He ended up being a boss fight later, when the party infiltrated the fortress where he had taken the macguffins, it was great
I just wanted to add a summary to a point that is rounded out and explained a lot: morally grey isn't a lack of morality or ethics, but the belief in something that is more righteous than anything else that other people hold dear; it's hard to dichotomize, because both lawful and chaotic characters take a stand for what they believe in, and perspective can warp that, because that something can look a lot like good... when it sometimes isn't.
Believe it or not, HELM is morally grey in this manner. If you know what happened during the Time of Troubles, and the origin of the Guardian's Tear... you know.
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Leaving this for you know who. Maybe he'll show up next time someone watches the video?
The alignment chart is just the quick glance guide to how would the character act here it's not a "real" thing and is subject table to table
Morally gray characters tend to just be good characters that are willing to do evil actions when necessary. If a law is preventing them from doing something theyll brwak that law, stuff like that.
The way you play any character in an rpg without getting kicked out of the party is not disrupting the things other people in the party are trying to do.
For example, if your party has a prisoner they’re bringing to the king or somebody, don’t take it upon yourself as a morally grey character to kill this prisoner. You just prevented other people in the party from pursuing their own goals. A general rule of thumb is to go along with what the majority of the party wants, but take the opportunity to protest and get your morally grey rp on by arguing for your slightly unethical way of doing things.
It's interesting. I've always played chaotic neutral characters
My 2nd player was in 2nd ed AD&D - a half-elf ranger/ bard (an oversight by the designers IMHO, and went by the "level limits"). He was interesting in that he saw a wrong, and in addressing it, had BIG problems, but in the end it was worth it. The BBEG was a martial lich, was a paladin whose wife died and despite all his efforts, could not be returned to the land of the living. So, he swore an oath of vengeance. In the game the party found a castle with his dead wife's things in it. He went to the BBEG under a flag of truce, returning her stuff to him. As a result, the BBEG magically marked my character. It was uncertain whether the mark allowed him to spy on him or simply allowed him to know our location. Yet, even knowing this, if he had that type of a situation again, I would do it all over again. As it turned out we faced an enemy that ended up killing my character. But that wasn't the end of his story. He went to the afterlife, and talking to the goddess, got a feat before there were such things, which allowed his magic to effect the lich. After the lich was defeated, we found out someone tricked the paladin into believing he was dead, but his body was just in suspended animation.
I personally think one of the best DND alignments to play a morally gray character especially in the case of religious characters is lawful evil
I always love to play someone whose ends justify their means, someone who has the same morally good goal as the heroes but gets there with some questionable methods.
In my longest Pathfinder game, my roommate was a Druid Modron, so I guess he was truly the most grey morally of us all XD
I think Geralt is grey but morally he’s good leaning. The consequences of the choices he makes are grey, but Geralt himself always tries to do the best for people (in many regards, he may be the most emphatic Witcher in the Witcher series).
Really liked this video, I’m running a Oath of the watchers Paladin that is very loyal to their king that joined a party of anti-authoritarians that happens to be in the middle of fighting a demonic incursion.
I see it this way: Vast majority of people are morally gray, very few people are purely evil to good, to be so requires to never compromise on your ideals and ethics which is near impossible to do. A good example of a "gray morality" can be seen in how militarily often operates, where while you do try to minimize civilian casualties, sometimes it's just unavoidable, because the bad guys will often use civilians as human shields, but you still gotta carry out the mission.
One of my current characters is a "fallen" paladin
His order turned on him causing him to make a deal with a devil. So now he is a warlock with one level of paladin (plan to go further later once I get to that arc)
He is shut off rather dark and can seem rude at times.
But I role play it out. And I give small bits of kindness maybe glimpse of his prior life.
He is very edgy. But I play him in a way that makes his anger and cynical nature understood.
I agree the best way to play a grey character or even a darker natured character is make it seem reasonable to him. Make his trauma and suffering equivalent to his quest.
It’s honestly kinda easy. Make them a serial liar, some people like making characters sleep around, or swap people’s magic items with someone else’s, maybe a rich npc. Pass it off as kleptomaniacy and be ready to pay a 50-350 gold fee on top of restoring the missing items, and buy everyone harmed a drink.
Don’t be a thorn, just a holly leaf. Less painful, more green and leafy. And be willing to repay kindly for the troubles. But be willing to push the boundaries of what your world sees as morally green and red. Some worlds value trust because of all the enchanters running around, others property (for lack of gold), and each person and npc can have their own virtues and vices regarding such values.
Morally grey don’t need to mean money, honey, or blood. Could be as simple as sobriety. .
Most of the characters I play are morally grey but they're not villains. As playing a morally grey character isn't an excuse to play a murder-hobo or a villain playing a morally grey character means you're playing a character who is willing to do or suggest acts that may be arguably evil but really aren't they're just acts that a lawful good character wouldn't suggest.
Easiest way for me that has worked?
Serve the party, not a moral compass.
If you believe something immoral would be helping the party, as long as it gets results, (usually) other party members are able to forgive such actions
Of course, always, communicate with the party what you want to do.
When playing a morally "grey" character, I generally try to make them have hold one value above all. Like maybe they're interested in self preservation, or is obsessed with adhering to their religion(for good or ill), or they try to advance the standing of their house at all costs.
Being interested in self preservation above everything else may be selfish, but it's also very understandable(most people don't want to die).
Dogmatically sticking to the tenents of one's faith could make one uncompromising and intolerant of others, but could also make one more generous or charitable.
Trying to advance the position of one's family can come from trying to help your loved ones, but could also make people do horrible things in service of that goal.
I find that this is a pretty simple way of creating simple yet morally complex motives for my characters.
Edit: Didn't watch the video before I wrote this but yeah, he already said it.
What you're describing are creeds and codes. Bringing alignment into it sort of muddies the water here. Your alignment really describes character intention and motivation, but morally grey isn't an alignment and not believing in a binary doesn't exempt you from it. Most 'morally grey' characters are either bad guys that sometimes help out, or good guys who have done bad things. Either could still be descriptions of a lawful or chaotic character, but in the end, your deeds *are* good or bad