This is why I love Stargate! The magic is clarktech but we see it from three perspectives. The humans who revere it as the work of the gods, the humans from earth who know better but aren't sure how, and the aliens that know it best and exploit it.
My first introduction to magitech came from my childhood when i became a fan of He-Man and She-Ra. The cartoon shows never really did a deep-dive into the lore but as originally envisaged Eternia is a post-apocalyptic world where vast ancient civilisations were wiped out by terrible wars, and both the magic and technology of the series - and the macguffin of Castle Greyskull and the secrets of the universe hidden within - are the last vestiges of those ancient civilisations' wonders. Over time the ancient civilisations element has been mostly forgotten in the franchise by people who only grew up on the cartoons but it's still my favourite part.
I didn't knew this element, beyond what is obvious. I know they have Conan (the Cimmerian created by Robert E Howard) as a source of inspiration. And I once noticed in the background of an episode of She-Ra an statue in a water fountain that strongly suggests to me some Gorean roots as well (it is a man capturing a woman, very John Norman style. And the public monument is in a random peasant village, nothing to suggest that was left there by the Horde). I also remember what I believe was the first episode of He-Man, that seemed a lot closer to Conan than anything else in the show. But I am not familiar with the original worldbuilding intended to the show. Those were better times, with less Specialist Professionals babbling pseudo-scientific rules about what children are supposed to be exposed to or not. Make sense to me that they could have elaborated a more interesting setting, despite the show being intended for young audiences mostly. Back them children could still read the Bible, Homer, and other very bloody tales without anyone think about if it was proper or not. Few people would dare to suggest editing the classics to make them less "problematic", by taking away things like violence, patriarcal notions, slavery and/or racism. Did they published this background elements at the time, or more recently?
@@thiagom8478 - they did an encyclopedia, episode guides and other books a few years ago that revealed a lot of the background stuff. Some of it did make it into licensed media at the time like comics and picture books. And the original run of minicomics that came with the toys had some of it. They did a collected edition of those.
I would also mention biotics in Mass Effect as either sufficiently advanced technology type of magic or just plain magic in a scientific skin, since Element Zero is fictitious and I would highly doubt we would ever discover it or its equivalent but it is utilized both inherently and through technological application.
A pet peeve I have about this subject is that in the many discussions of magic and technology on the internet (not specifically your video) I think it would be helpful to first define what is meant by technology. After all, technology is basically just the application of knowledge for practical purposes, so magic is commonly presented as a technology anyway. Often it seems as if technology is being used to refer to physical devices that anyone can use. However, most magic items would seem to fit this category already. Does that make a basic magic sword magic, technology or magitech? It is after all the combination of fictional magic with a real technology and anyone can use it. What about magic rings, potions and other assorted tropes? It's never been entirely clear to me where the boundaries are between magic, technology and magitech.
It’s a very blurry line and one that I feel the world builder needs to draw in their story. I normally define tech as driven by science that someone in the world understands. Magic has something mysterious and inexplicable to it. Even if people in the world can use it, they don’t know everything about it. There’s a portion of it that just works this way or that way. Magitek is the gray and malleable border.
THANK YOU! THANK YOU SO MUCH! Well, I have thought and studied a lot about this topic. And after watching this video this is the best answer I have come to on my personal path, I am not saying that it is the universal and definitive answer, but rather the one that I have formulated thinking about my own stories. Magic and science/technology are differentiated by four factors that can occur in different “combinations and presentations.” -Energy: speaking in terms of DND, if an artifact or method uses energy from the material plane it is technology, if it uses energy from other planes of existence it is magic. -Dependency on the degree of how technical it is: the less it depends on the degree of how technical for its operation, it is magic. For example, creating fire with just a few words. The mechanism, material and method was only language, not any physical tool. Although there are forms of magic that require materials, such as ingredients for potions, it is magic if the effects that occur go beyond the physical properties of the ingredients. But there can be technical magic if its use is the basis for something else, such as if someone makes a fire spell to replace coal in a locomotive (just like you explained about the fire nation in Avatar). But a spell that moves cars or wagons directly is just applied magic, but if all the mechanism is imbued with magic to be use on a standardized and even automatic way that would be then magitech. -Level of understanding vs level of wonder: this applies to both the characters and the readers, if a practice generates wonder more than what is understood, it is more magic than science. Science is understood down to basic principles and although there is incredible science even in the real world, one can understand it or at least investigate it to continue making discoveries. I say the latter because there are physical principles that in the past were applied without being completely understood, they were only intuited and used. For example, making fire by hitting two rocks, today it is understood that certain minerals cause this phenomenon. while magic can be narratively an eternal mystery that causes intrigue and amazement, but still continues to work in the practical part with increasing efficiency. In short, the progress of magic does not necessarily depend on understanding the basic principles and said mystery is a narrative tool. -Now with this video, I have an additional factor that is individuality in magic in contrast to the collectivism of science and technology, although magic can be collective and democratized like you explained I believe that technology can never be individual to such an internal level. I certainly hope to continue polishing, expanding or even correcting these factors that make up my definition. I am planning to read the book “Foundryside” by Robert Jackson for a recommendation on this topic.
Magitek is one of my favorite fantasy aesthetics, with two of my favorite videogame franchises (Zelda and Xenoblade) exhibiting it in various ways (though more-so in Xenoblade than Zelda). While it doesn’t lean into this aspect directly, Xenoblade 1 can be considered to have the “democratization of magic” element, as the High Entia are the only ones who can directly wield ether. Everyone else has to use catalysts and technology to access its power, leading to things like rifles that fire healing bullets. But then on top of that, you have a special magitek sword that only certain people can use which is connected to ether on an even more fundamental level than even “natural mages”.
When you mentioned magitech, i started thinking about Constructs and Zonai devices in The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom, and *maybe* the Guardians and ancient and ancient dericed items and weapons created by the Sheikah tribe from 10,000 years prior in The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild. Tears of the Kingdom takes place between ~5-7 years after Breath of the Wild.
Speaking of The Legend of Zelda, there are similar robots in Skyward Sword in the ancient Lanayru region that used to mine time shift stones and can be reactivated with them. I heard these last 3 major games were directed or produced by the same person. @@JustInTimeWorlds
First and foremost, great video! This is the first time I've seen you, and I'm now subscribed. Ty for the awesome info and perspectives. That said, one small note from someone who's spent more time in Eberron than I'd like to admit... When it comes to Warforged, part of the magic vs. tech canon of the setting is that no souls are used in their creation. Thus, it creates a question of if they have souls at all. It's left widely to the DM and/or group to determine. A lot of the Eberron setting is like that, by design. Many questions, and few actual answers. Do Warforged have souls, what caused the day of Mourning, who killed the Queen of Breland, etc. Lastly, I'd like to say I've heard many thoughts on Warforged construction over the years... But this is the first time I've heard children's souls. I think it's a fantastic idea for a darker campaign! Thank you for the inspiration!
You're very welcome :D I too have spent far too much time in Eberron hahahaha. I love the setting. It might be that I made up the children thing? I definitely remember it in a campaign, but I could have added it myself. I do like to play with in the Dark Fantasy side of life.
Ok, youtube no me avisó que esta serie continuaba, así que es hora de jugar un juego, juguemos a "¡Hora de ponerse al día!". Quejas y bromas a parte, uno de los temas que suele rondar mi cabeza cuando pienso en este genero es en mezclar la zoología especulativa, con la fantasía, responder a la pregunta de ¿Cómo sería la evolución de un mundo mágico? ¿Alguna idea?
This was the principle of my science fantasy world. I built weird and wonderful creatures that have some science reason behind the way they look and their abilities(even if the science is shaky). So I have solar ants with glowing abdomens that shoot lasers and other crazy things like that (and there is a reason why they seem like earth creatures :) )
@@JustInTimeWorlds Gracias, aunque estaba pensando más en cosas cómo, por ejemplo: ¿Cómo se verán los animales, cómo unicornios y orcos, dentro de 5 millones de años?
@@elgordo107able ah! Well, that’s an interesting thought. It would depend on what makes them more likely to successfully procreate in the wild if they’re not domesticated and if they are domesticated, what the sentient species selects for in breeding them.
why no one does theorization for the magic in marvel universe and comics and those other worlds without hard or soft magic stuff. its like writing is being subverted by this . almost every video ive seen when it speaks on magic and good writing follow the same ''ideology''
I actually just find it useful as a point of discussion. As I said in my video on hard vs soft magic systems, the debate is silly. The magic system of a world is whatever the author needs it to be. But when discussing broad strokes, it helps to thing in terms of "harder magic systems work better if you want to do this" and "softer magic systems work better if you want to do that". It's not an ideology, it's just a tool for categorization and discussion.
You had me hooked quoting Elric the Technomage at the beginning.
I’ve watched Babylon 5 again in preparation for this series 😎❤️
This is why I love Stargate! The magic is clarktech but we see it from three perspectives. The humans who revere it as the work of the gods, the humans from earth who know better but aren't sure how, and the aliens that know it best and exploit it.
It’s a great series 😊😎
Any science sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic.
Any magic sufficiently understood is indistinguishable from sceince.
My first introduction to magitech came from my childhood when i became a fan of He-Man and She-Ra.
The cartoon shows never really did a deep-dive into the lore but as originally envisaged Eternia is a post-apocalyptic world where vast ancient civilisations were wiped out by terrible wars, and both the magic and technology of the series - and the macguffin of Castle Greyskull and the secrets of the universe hidden within - are the last vestiges of those ancient civilisations' wonders.
Over time the ancient civilisations element has been mostly forgotten in the franchise by people who only grew up on the cartoons but it's still my favourite part.
I didn't knew this element, beyond what is obvious. I know they have Conan (the Cimmerian created by Robert E Howard) as a source of inspiration. And I once noticed in the background of an episode of She-Ra an statue in a water fountain that strongly suggests to me some Gorean roots as well (it is a man capturing a woman, very John Norman style. And the public monument is in a random peasant village, nothing to suggest that was left there by the Horde). I also remember what I believe was the first episode of He-Man, that seemed a lot closer to Conan than anything else in the show.
But I am not familiar with the original worldbuilding intended to the show. Those were better times, with less Specialist Professionals babbling pseudo-scientific rules about what children are supposed to be exposed to or not. Make sense to me that they could have elaborated a more interesting setting, despite the show being intended for young audiences mostly.
Back them children could still read the Bible, Homer, and other very bloody tales without anyone think about if it was proper or not. Few people would dare to suggest editing the classics to make them less "problematic", by taking away things like violence, patriarcal notions, slavery and/or racism.
Did they published this background elements at the time, or more recently?
@@thiagom8478 - they did an encyclopedia, episode guides and other books a few years ago that revealed a lot of the background stuff. Some of it did make it into licensed media at the time like comics and picture books. And the original run of minicomics that came with the toys had some of it. They did a collected edition of those.
Thanks, @@nagillim7915 .
I would also mention biotics in Mass Effect as either sufficiently advanced technology type of magic or just plain magic in a scientific skin, since Element Zero is fictitious and I would highly doubt we would ever discover it or its equivalent but it is utilized both inherently and through technological application.
Thank you so much for this video. I’m thankful to for the algorithmic magitech that has made your summoning possible for me. 🙏
Watching your videos feels like hanging out with a friend's older sibling after school. Feels nerdy, warm, and like home.
Well, I’m definitely an OG nerd 😏😃
A pet peeve I have about this subject is that in the many discussions of magic and technology on the internet (not specifically your video) I think it would be helpful to first define what is meant by technology. After all, technology is basically just the application of knowledge for practical purposes, so magic is commonly presented as a technology anyway. Often it seems as if technology is being used to refer to physical devices that anyone can use. However, most magic items would seem to fit this category already. Does that make a basic magic sword magic, technology or magitech? It is after all the combination of fictional magic with a real technology and anyone can use it. What about magic rings, potions and other assorted tropes? It's never been entirely clear to me where the boundaries are between magic, technology and magitech.
It’s a very blurry line and one that I feel the world builder needs to draw in their story. I normally define tech as driven by science that someone in the world understands. Magic has something mysterious and inexplicable to it. Even if people in the world can use it, they don’t know everything about it. There’s a portion of it that just works this way or that way.
Magitek is the gray and malleable border.
THANK YOU! THANK YOU SO MUCH! Well, I have thought and studied a lot about this topic. And after watching this video this is the best answer I have come to on my personal path, I am not saying that it is the universal and definitive answer, but rather the one that I have formulated thinking about my own stories.
Magic and science/technology are differentiated by four factors that can occur in different “combinations and presentations.”
-Energy: speaking in terms of DND, if an artifact or method uses energy from the material plane it is technology, if it uses energy from other planes of existence it is magic.
-Dependency on the degree of how technical it is: the less it depends on the degree of how technical for its operation, it is magic. For example, creating fire with just a few words. The mechanism, material and method was only language, not any physical tool. Although there are forms of magic that require materials, such as ingredients for potions, it is magic if the effects that occur go beyond the physical properties of the ingredients. But there can be technical magic if its use is the basis for something else, such as if someone makes a fire spell to replace coal in a locomotive (just like you explained about the fire nation in Avatar). But a spell that moves cars or wagons directly is just applied magic, but if all the mechanism is imbued with magic to be use on a standardized and even automatic way that would be then magitech.
-Level of understanding vs level of wonder: this applies to both the characters and the readers, if a practice generates wonder more than what is understood, it is more magic than science. Science is understood down to basic principles and although there is incredible science even in the real world, one can understand it or at least investigate it to continue making discoveries. I say the latter because there are physical principles that in the past were applied without being completely understood, they were only intuited and used. For example, making fire by hitting two rocks, today it is understood that certain minerals cause this phenomenon. while magic can be narratively an eternal mystery that causes intrigue and amazement, but still continues to work in the practical part with increasing efficiency. In short, the progress of magic does not necessarily depend on understanding the basic principles and said mystery is a narrative tool.
-Now with this video, I have an additional factor that is individuality in magic in contrast to the collectivism of science and technology, although magic can be collective and democratized like you explained I believe that technology can never be individual to such an internal level.
I certainly hope to continue polishing, expanding or even correcting these factors that make up my definition. I am planning to read the book “Foundryside” by Robert Jackson for a recommendation on this topic.
That is a very insightful approach. I'm so pleased that my videos have helped your journey :)
Magitek is one of my favorite fantasy aesthetics, with two of my favorite videogame franchises (Zelda and Xenoblade) exhibiting it in various ways (though more-so in Xenoblade than Zelda).
While it doesn’t lean into this aspect directly, Xenoblade 1 can be considered to have the “democratization of magic” element, as the High Entia are the only ones who can directly wield ether. Everyone else has to use catalysts and technology to access its power, leading to things like rifles that fire healing bullets. But then on top of that, you have a special magitek sword that only certain people can use which is connected to ether on an even more fundamental level than even “natural mages”.
Thank you so much for this! Love your personality and content, very descriptive , thought provoking and wonderfully structured.
Glad your enjoyed it!
When you mentioned magitech, i started thinking about Constructs and Zonai devices in The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom, and *maybe* the Guardians and ancient and ancient dericed items and weapons created by the Sheikah tribe from 10,000 years prior in The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild. Tears of the Kingdom takes place between ~5-7 years after Breath of the Wild.
My head went to final fantasy, but Zelda is also a great example
Speaking of The Legend of Zelda, there are similar robots in Skyward Sword in the ancient Lanayru region that used to mine time shift stones and can be reactivated with them. I heard these last 3 major games were directed or produced by the same person. @@JustInTimeWorlds
First and foremost, great video! This is the first time I've seen you, and I'm now subscribed. Ty for the awesome info and perspectives.
That said, one small note from someone who's spent more time in Eberron than I'd like to admit...
When it comes to Warforged, part of the magic vs. tech canon of the setting is that no souls are used in their creation. Thus, it creates a question of if they have souls at all. It's left widely to the DM and/or group to determine.
A lot of the Eberron setting is like that, by design. Many questions, and few actual answers. Do Warforged have souls, what caused the day of Mourning, who killed the Queen of Breland, etc.
Lastly, I'd like to say I've heard many thoughts on Warforged construction over the years... But this is the first time I've heard children's souls. I think it's a fantastic idea for a darker campaign! Thank you for the inspiration!
You're very welcome :D I too have spent far too much time in Eberron hahahaha. I love the setting. It might be that I made up the children thing? I definitely remember it in a campaign, but I could have added it myself. I do like to play with in the Dark Fantasy side of life.
@JustInTimeWorlds Could be, I do the same thing. It's such a fun setting to do that with, lol.
And the alien spider/vampire People in Venice knew about it.. not the only one who can overcome the psychic paper.
I'd forgotten about them :)
I mean this in the most wholesome way possible, but this intro made me cringe with a huge smile on my face, so wonderfully camp!!
Well... You watched :D I count that as a total win (for team camp) :D
Ok, youtube no me avisó que esta serie continuaba, así que es hora de jugar un juego, juguemos a "¡Hora de ponerse al día!".
Quejas y bromas a parte, uno de los temas que suele rondar mi cabeza cuando pienso en este genero es en mezclar la zoología especulativa, con la fantasía, responder a la pregunta de ¿Cómo sería la evolución de un mundo mágico? ¿Alguna idea?
This was the principle of my science fantasy world. I built weird and wonderful creatures that have some science reason behind the way they look and their abilities(even if the science is shaky). So I have solar ants with glowing abdomens that shoot lasers and other crazy things like that (and there is a reason why they seem like earth creatures :) )
@@JustInTimeWorlds Gracias, aunque estaba pensando más en cosas cómo, por ejemplo: ¿Cómo se verán los animales, cómo unicornios y orcos, dentro de 5 millones de años?
@@elgordo107able ah! Well, that’s an interesting thought. It would depend on what makes them more likely to successfully procreate in the wild if they’re not domesticated and if they are domesticated, what the sentient species selects for in breeding them.
@@JustInTimeWorlds A lo mejor los unicornios podrían desarrollar poderes de fuego para sobrevivir a una glaciación o algo así.
why no one does theorization for the magic in marvel universe and comics and those other worlds without hard or soft magic stuff. its like writing is being subverted by this . almost every video ive seen when it speaks on magic and good writing follow the same ''ideology''
I actually just find it useful as a point of discussion. As I said in my video on hard vs soft magic systems, the debate is silly. The magic system of a world is whatever the author needs it to be. But when discussing broad strokes, it helps to thing in terms of "harder magic systems work better if you want to do this" and "softer magic systems work better if you want to do that".
It's not an ideology, it's just a tool for categorization and discussion.