We're sorry but this handling of the Sansa stuff is about as enraging as we could possibly imagine.... ooof. Head to www.patreon.com/SeanTankTop to see Angel's reaction to 5x7&8 including the LEGENDARY HARDHOME AND HOTD BAR REACTIONS late tonight for only $8!
I remember the fallout from this episode. There was a HUGE outcry from fans! People were already kinda complaining about all the casual rape in the show, but this episode brought all of it to a head, and the showrunners turned down the sexual violence in the later episodes filmed after.
Nails and hair may appear to keep growing, but this is because flesh shrinks as it dries out, retracting the skin to make the nails and hair appear longer.
Kenny the Editor: I do agree with you. The Sand Snakes are BADASS in the books and their chapters are page flippers because they are so great, but here, they are boring and weird, yanno? They did a major disservice to my Sand Snakes!
I don’t understand why we need a content warning regarding a television show for adults. Every episode of GoT should have a content warning by these standards, which it kind of does (it was on HBO after all). I was always prepared to be shocked and horrified by this show. Not saying I enjoyed this episode’s ending but I expected it.
@@co_row sorry sarcasm lol. I agree with you. There have already been 2 blatant rapes in the show. This one isn't anything different. If you need warned after all this time then... you know..
Sansa never even MEETS Ramsay in the books. The girl he marries is Jeyne Poole, Sansa's friend from book one, who is being passed off as Arya. We also never see anything happen to her "on screen", as you said Just an EXTRAORDINARILY questionable creative choice on the part of the showrunners here
Yes, and the whole argument from Littlefinger to try to justify Sansa marrying Ramsay doesn't make any sense ! How, in Sansa's position, is turning herself to her enemies who killed her family and being left alone at their mercy any sensible way to fight for her house ? Especially since Sansa has already been in that position in King's Landing where she was powerless for 3 seasons, how can it be conceivable that this kind of strategy would make any sense ?
Sansa’s storyline is brutal. I do appreciate that through her character’s eyes, we get to see the illusions of a romanticized medieval history give way to the harsh realities (obviously, in a fictional universe, though). She starts off with naive notions of a happy marriage to a handsome and brave prince who is actually a monster, then we see her assume Littlefinger loves her and will protect her, only to see him use her as another play to reach his ultimate goal (while I know that may differ from the book Littlefinger, I kind of like that his “love” is actually quite selfish in the show). In actual history, women were often treated like trade assets and seen as sexual property from a very young age. Yet another horrific reality of humanity’s past. When I recently rewatched the show, my admiration and respect for Sansa grew even more than on the first watch. I do think we could have all been spared that scene (alluding to his ways would have been plenty terrible enough), but I have a feeling it was shown more for Theon’s story than for Sansa’s. It was definitely sickening to watch.
Sansa is literally the writers punching bag and this doesn’t even happen in the books!! In the books Sansa is still at the Vale with little finger pretending to be his bastard daughter. This isn’t even Sansa’s storyline it’s Jeyne Poole. Also allegedly the writers waited till Sophie (the Sansa actress) turned 18 to give her this storyline and also D&D also allegedly joked around with Sophie telling her she was getting a love interest in season 5…. And it’s Ramsay Bolton 😭
Also, it’s the way that the showrunners have known Sophie Turner since she was 13 years old when she was cast, watched her grow up, and the moment she turned 18, had a rape scene written up for her to act out. A scene that does not happen within the canon of the books nor does it make sense politically for Littlefinger to set up.
I personally don’t mind this plot for multiple reasons. When you’re going to have an extremely traumatic experience in the show like this, it has to go somewhere. Sansa going through this is devastating, but seeing where it ends up makes me not hate it in hindsight. It doesn’t mean we had to go this route, but I think it’s partially okay. When a scene like this happens, what I’m looking for is that we see the character’s mental anguish with what they're going through and explore how it affects them (and if we’re lucky, having justice, or nice conclusion to the trauma). With Sansa’s plot, we get all those things. Compare that to the scene between Jamie and Cersei in season 4. This scene goes absolutely NOWHERE. All I wanted from it was to see how that moment affected Cersei OR Jamie. But that literally doesn’t happen. We don’t get to see Cersei’s mental state of the pain her brother put on her. We don’t get to see the complicated feelings Jamie had afterwards because the writers just decided that scene didn’t exist after it happens. And for that, I find that scene much worse than Sansa and Ramsay’s. [S6 SPOILERS FROM THIS POINT] Like I said before, we didn’t need this plot for Sansa, but I’m okay with it because of what we get out of it. It’s not something that goes null and void. Sansa’s mental pain (and Theon’s) isn’t a one time thing and then it never gets discussed again (kind of how I feel about Daenerys and Drogo). It almost never goes away. Those experiences are forever a part of them (Sansa and Theon) now and it just is what it is, sadly. The way they overcome it is what is beautiful to see. The relationship we get out of this plot is such an emotional and important one. The reunion that we get between Sansa and Jon becomes even more intense and emotional because they found each other at their lowest. Jon’s response and actions towards the situation is effective. Sansa’s retelling of all of it is effective. It all just goes somewhere by her trauma existing instead of it being shoved away and never mentioned again like with Cersei and Jamie. The conclusion and revenge we get is glorious. And the most important part that makes it all okay in my eyes is the fact that Sansa eventually got agency in her own story. I’m a person that loves a slow burn character (like Sansa, Theon, and Jamie). When first watching season 5 and her entire plot during this time, I was frustrated and sad, but I held out hope if she got agency back in her life. And season 6 delivered that which makes everything previously written for Sansa fine in hindsight (not that what she goes through is okay, but from an outside writing standpoint). If she had never gotten power back in her life, than I would’ve had a huge issue with her storyline. I also want to mention that the acting is so fantastic between everyone that I feel completely sold through the scenes. These actors seriously know what they’re doing. I think it’s completely fine that people don’t like Sansa’s plot line in this season. Especially if it comes from a place of being too personal for the viewer. But some other people’s criticisms (normally book readers) of why it’s bad usually don’t come off right to me. Also, to mention that other people who had been wishing for Sansa to gain power through her story end up hating her when she finally gets it, so that confuses me as well. It’s a tricky discussion, in my opinion.
The Sansa thing was horrible when it aired, but it's almost WORSE looking back on it now that the show is finished cause her whole plot at Winterfell with Ramsay is just the story spinning it's wheels until the other subplots line up and her arc can move on. Like "oh Sansa needs something to do in season 5 uhhhhh lets re-traumatize her" ((SPOILERS)) When you think about it, it really doesn't go anywhere and it ALMOST exists in a vacuum. Once Sansa escapes Winterfell and reconnects with Jon, her arc basically picks back up where it left off at the end of season 4/very beginning of season 5, after a brief detour with all the Ramsay stuff where her character regresses for the sake of ~drama~. You could say "oh she needs these experiences with Ramsay so there's more payoff when he dies" but she didn't NEED a more personal reason to want revenge against him...his father killed her brother and he literally sacked Winterfell!! His death scene can play out almost exactly the same without all the r*pe taking place!! And that's not to say that Sansa maturing and growing as a character would make her immune to sexual violence, but NARRATIVELY it literally does nothing for her in the long run. There were people arguing when this first aired that her experiences would further develop her character, and sure that CAN happen if handled correctly, but not only was it not necessary in this case....it literally didn't lead to ANYTHING...
I feel like this is the episode where people realized that Benioff and Weiss had no damn clue what they were doing and should have had zero business controlling where the show went.
its a big problem with SA depiction in western media, they make it a defining aspect of a womans character, when we would never dream of applying the same story beats to a male character
Sansa's storyline in season 5 really makes no sense logically. Realistically, littlefinger never would've given her up, cuz he's in love with her and also knows how valuable she is. In the books, Sansa staying in the vale basically still learning and playing the role of Alayne is more interesting. She's way too valuable to reclaiming the North, including her virtue, etc. as a Lady. The way the writers built Sansa up in season 4 in her last appearance of lying so well to save Littlefinger from being blamed for Lysa's death, and it was clear Sansa knew Littlefinger wanted her, she was learning to use that to her advantage. Then, in season 5 for them to basically strip all of that little bit of power and freedom Sansa was gaining away was ridiculous and was the start of the downfall of the series tbh. It just sucks we'll never get to see how some things in the book were progressing brought to life. Also I LOVE that this guy is a Sansa stan, me too !! stood by her since foreverrrr and she's even better in the books, hopefully they'll be finished
Yea, and the handling of Sansa just gets worse as we go on. Her character stops following any internal consistency, and they seem to change the way they write her scene to scene... And half the stuff she starts to do never gets explained. I loved GRRMs preview Sansa chapter from TWOW, but I've also lost some faith in his writing abilities over the years, so I don't have much hope for TWOW being good even if it comes out.
Well a certain degree of blame has to be placed on Martin. "Just staying in the veil" doesn't present a conclusion. Doesn't move things forward. The show had to end, where the books haven't. Since the Bolton storyline already existed, it was a convenient way of putting Sansa back in the North to eventually recollide with Jon and Arya, while sticking to a pre-existing story in the books. And it reconnects Littlefinger to events as well, putting him into position as it moved towards the end. Obviously it didn't result in a quality conclusion. Personally it isn't until post Battle of the Bastards that I really feel like things start go downhill. I don't mind the Sansa/Roose storyline too much. Especially since Roose was so brilliantly portrayed in the show.
@@starsimvidz I agree. Sansa was always one of the more difficult characters to bring to life cuz she’s such a mental character. We can’t hear her thoughts in the series. But after season 5. The writers use her character as a pawn to bait viewers into stupid drama constantly making it seem as if she’s gonna betray her family or become like Cersei or Littlefinger. It’s all so poorly done. They began just giving her moments of having those witty remarks / comebacks like Cersei has in King’s Landing. However, the core of Sansa’s character and something she realizes being trapped in King’s landing is her strength comes from her position as a Lady and presenting her nobility and skills. In the books, especially pretending to be Alayne. Sansa is so good at faking it all, hiding her true intentions, her true thoughts. D&D focused too much on having to make characters tell the audience things like Sansa has became smart, etc. when that should be apparent. Instead of rushing the entire story, leaving out so many characters, giving Sansa and Arya TERRIBLE storylines for seasons 7 & 8. They could’ve actually expanded and finished properly developing her as the character she was meant to be.
@@starsimvidz yeah… sadly even if the books do get finished there’s a huge chance they won’t live up to what they could’ve been. He’s put them off too long, I think it’s extremely likely he’s went back and changed it all several times. Especially after the series has ended, he’s so involved online with fans, he’s probably let their reactions and opinions affect his writing at this point.
@@FulcanMal I disagree. They could’ve easily found a way to get Sansa back to the North. The issue also comes with how much they left out in the series. I understand they can only do so much, but HBO quite literally was prepared and offering to give D&D so many more seasons. Instead of even making the seasons longer, they could’ve began splitting the books up to be able to include more characters/storylines that were left out, which affects possible scenarios for characters like Sansa that the books could be leading to…
Yeah, that’s why I don’t really understand book readers criticism on this situation because they make it sound like one character should’ve been raped, but not the other. In reality it should be devastating regardless. It’s just really weird to me. Especially cause it’s even worse in the books. If some people can’t watch it because it’s too traumatic, that’s completely valid. But others saying it’s bad because it was supposed to be Jeyne and not Sansa makes me uncomfortable.
18:09 Kenny is correct. nothing stupid like " women can't fight " , it's just they set up a situation that the actors aren't trained enough to do, have the protagonists fight off multiple attackers who would definitely not stand around and take turns to fight
I agree with the editor. The entire Dorne arc is just really lame. Even a left handed knight would be able to skewer a person twirling a whip around her head soooo easily. Also Jamie and Bronn just walking right in to the palace. 🤣🤣
The sand snakes was the biggest disappointment for me when it comes to the tv series, they're like the opposite of the feel they have in the books, all very unique in their ways but they all gave a chilling impression of being just dangerous (Not to mention that the whole arch is much more complex), the bad choregraphy just made it even worst, generic af.
Especially given how the show nailed and upgraded other female characters like Osha, Margaery, and Olenna...Sometimes I forget that Natalie Dormers Margaery is basically a show original character... idk how the Sand Snakes became B movie baddies.. and idk why the directing, camera work, choreography, etc all went down the drain in those scenes... AFFC and ADWD def needed massive cuts in order to be filmable., so why not just cut Dorne out instead of doing this D-grade version and give us back Bran, an actual main POV character....
@@saul4568 what else can be used to describe them lol. just.. their little ninja costumes that they put on in order to sneak into their own backyard in broad daylight....
When it comes to the fight scene in this episode, they had to rush to do it because something happened with the location to where they didn't have the time they thought they would have to film, so everything was rushed. It's the one fight scene in the show where you can tell that something had to go wrong lol. Most of the fight scenes are fantastic.
I hated season 5 on first watch because all my favorite characters were going THROUGH IT. And it mainly started in this episode with Margaery and Sansa. This was such a rough episode for me! I really do appreciate this season much more after seeing the entirety of the show.
OMG, Karl Tanner really does look like Willem Defoe! I can't unsee that now. 😂 The r*pe scene between Ramsey and Sansa didn't occur in the books. Sansa's best friend, Jeyne Poole was passed off as Arya and betrothed to Ramsey so the Bolton's could keep their hold on the North. The things that happen to Sansa in the show is presumably happening to Jeyne in the books.
*** Book Spoiler *** In the books, Sansa is still in the Vale. She is not married to Ramsey. She is not married to anyone - she is posing as Littlefinger's bastard daughter, Alayne Stone. Sansa's childhood bestfriend, Jeyne Poole, was married off to Ramsey Bolton, as Arya Stark. Jeyne and Theon escape from Ramsey and head toward the Wall. I don't remember if Jeyne has made it to Castle Black yet, but Theon is now in the hands of Stannis Baratheon. Stannis and his daughter and wife are also all still alive in the books.
Sand Snakes appearing out of nowhere and flippin' and turnin' together reminds me so much of Power Rangers from the 90's hahaha! (Although the power rangers had better choreography)
The first 4 episodes of this season were leaked online before the season started. The Torrent era was great. This episode basically metoo'd the series. Sansa survived Joffrey then gets passed on to Ramsay in the show. People already knew Ramsay was a sick bastard and kind of got worn down by the Starks always losing (wait for it 😏). In the books, it was Jane Westerling that married Ramsay and passed off as Aria Stark. That stuff happened in the background.
I'm with you Sean 1000% on the Sansa scene. This scene and one later in the season (I'll be very interested in your and Angel's take) really angered me. At some point it felt like they were just going for shock value because neither scene added anything to the story. We would've gotten the same message without them being so graphic.
i wouldn't call theon a pussy to me personally. he's clearly scared, and ramsey fucked him up mentally, and physically. what ramsey did to her isn't theons fault, that's all ramsey. don't forget ramsey can fight, theon can too, but at that moment ramsey would of killed him with that kind of rage he has already. what was he supposed to do tho? find a weapon? ramsey told him to stay there, if he would of moved, or made a sound, ramsey would of known and did something theon.
Agree with y'all on *that* scene. Gross, fucked, unnecessary and disappointing. A shame that they decided to film that, it's bereft of the tact that this show normally has.
I don't know, I don't feel strongly towards the Sansa rape scene one way or another. I think they were intending to bring Sansa more directly into the fold while also avoiding having to create a female charcter just to be raped, which is almost worst imo. I do find it odd how some people will say that this is better in the books just because Sansa doesn't get raped. That just brings up some uncomfortable questions about people being ok with rape as long as it doesn't happen to a character they like...
I think what we’re calling into question is the filmmaking itself. The fact that we are lingering highlighting and in someways fetishizing this plot point and to what end. It reaks (ha) of carelessness and callous artifice on the part of the director and screenwriters for being as dour and shocking as possible.
@SeanTanktop First of all, big fan lol. Your criticism is fair. I do think it's a bit of a lose-lose situation. If you depict the scene, then it could be misconstrued as being fetishist, but if you don't depict it, then people might feel like it robs the story of its power because we don't see Sansas POV (I remember some people not having issues with scene itself but more with Theon's reaction being made the focal point.) Its just an overall sensitive topic, which leads to any decision potentially being misinterpreted. My point being that it would not be an easy choice as a creator either way.
@@emmanuel6634 Second of all, many thanks. I get how you could be a lil benign about this scene in and of the world we are set, but also, like we say, to jump in to these waters is dicey BEYOND the best of storytellers. If done so it cannot be done flippantly. And....... it sorta feels flippant and deliberately salacious to the point of fetish. That's just how I feel, not speaking for Angel. Also, it's informed by the two of us (you and I) knowing where this is going. Some might say it works in the context of where Sansa heads as a character, but since I too also think that arc is ultimately forfeit of value, it's always gonna end with big fat zilch from me.
To go from joking about “a bit of rape” to being in disgust that the writers would dare to show rape on screen is dumb. An onscreen rape of a character we don’t know? That’s cool. But an onscreen rape of a character we care about? The scene just proves that as viewers we’ve become desensitized in the horror of this world. TBH I don’t care what they did in the book. In the show the scene serves the purpose of showing the severity of what happens to girls in this world and how even as Sansa finds her footing in the game of thrones, making her own plays, she is still a woman surrounded by men. No amount of cunning or scheming is gonna erase that reality. Not to mention this is her home yet she is miles away from safe.
This episode rightfully gets a lot of hate, but as someone who has Theon as one of my favorite characters in the show, Alfie Allen's acting is phenomenal. Wish it didn't have to be showcased in this context though. A lot of the criticism is very valid.
I wish I was like Angel. Thrones was much better for those who were able to binge watch. It’s us die hard fans who it hit the most, & the extended time to theorize made it so much harder!
I actually totally disagree, the scene is disgusting but shit like that happens, Ramsay is a psycho and it needs to be show, also, it's not like they showed the gruesomess of it
Part of the difference is that it is not Sansa that is married to Ramsey in the books, but in fact, her friend Jeyne. And yes, I suppose we don't "see" as much in the chapter from the book (not complaining), but the implication is very much the same, and just as horrifying! The notes from Kenny were particularly cathartic for me this episode. Lol. Season 5 was where I started to have issues. But I agree with Angel, Dorn is amazing. But that's also because I have since read the books. :D lol.
wow I didn’t realize Echo was Croc, until I saw that smile to Jorah 😂 and thank you Kenny, that whole scene was trash. only cool part was (I can’t think of his character name, but Doran’s guardian with the large ax) when he goes to swing at Jaime and says “when you were whole, it would have been a good fight.” too bad he got done dirty as we’ve seen 😢 19:00 😂😂😂 exactly Sean, “well…😳” 26:00 gods, he is ON POINT 🤘🏻🔥
Also, thanks guys. I really appreciate seeing your abhorrence about the Sansa scene. And Sean is right, this was the first really obvious misstep from the creators, and it was a VERY BAD one. This episode is universally reviled because of the terrible treatment of the Sand Snake and inserting a fan favorite into a role that was not written for her and it made the fans incredibly irate.
think this is 1 of the main reasons i cant watch the ramsay actor in any movie or show since. i can somewhat bend my mond to seeing the joffrey actor again, but i cant stand seeing the ramsay actor, i cant unsee him for that role.
This episode is the worst episode and I cannot stand how they treated Sanza. They were building her up and it’s like the show creators cannot stand to have a strong woman without doing soemthing to drag her down and it always seems that they resort to 1 of 2 things and it’s sickening. F*CK D&D
@SeanTankTop Did you finish The Acolyte? I don't see Episodes 6 and 7 in the playlist. I finished the season two nights ago, and the combat is still good.
I think that is a overly dramatized reaction to Ramsey assaulting sansa, it's a upsetting scene but it's important for the narrative that you really want to hate Ramsey. I try not to fake outrage, it's kinda obvious
I’ve never been more cool with being at odds with a commenter. And one who clearly didn’t listen to our conversation afterwards. We took massive issue with the fetishized nature of the filmmaking. Ramsay’s gaze is all over this scene and that’s what bothers us the most, not so much the plot point.
How does what happened here 'make no sense' and 'has nothing to do with the plotline' as some people claim here. The 'event' is literally mentioned in a good many future episodes and makes the battle of the bastards what it is, and also flavors Sansa's attitude towards Baelish.
We're sorry but this handling of the Sansa stuff is about as enraging as we could possibly imagine.... ooof. Head to www.patreon.com/SeanTankTop to see Angel's reaction to 5x7&8 including the LEGENDARY HARDHOME AND HOTD BAR REACTIONS late tonight for only $8!
I remember the fallout from this episode. There was a HUGE outcry from fans! People were already kinda complaining about all the casual rape in the show, but this episode brought all of it to a head, and the showrunners turned down the sexual violence in the later episodes filmed after.
"Weddings in westeros are thanksgivings on the CW" I'm dead. 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Kenny's informed opinion break 🤣❤
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Kenny The Editor is a freakin' gem. Absolutely class, good sir.
Nails and hair may appear to keep growing, but this is because flesh shrinks as it dries out, retracting the skin to make the nails and hair appear longer.
Kenny the Editor: I do agree with you. The Sand Snakes are BADASS in the books and their chapters are page flippers because they are so great, but here, they are boring and weird, yanno? They did a major disservice to my Sand Snakes!
I'm so excited for Kenny the editor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MVP award to Kenny the Editor for the sensitive content warning. A lot of other reactors don't give their audience that courtesy.
Exactly, I'm so glad b/c this is the first time I've seen this show.
I don’t understand why we need a content warning regarding a television show for adults. Every episode of GoT should have a content warning by these standards, which it kind of does (it was on HBO after all). I was always prepared to be shocked and horrified by this show. Not saying I enjoyed this episode’s ending but I expected it.
@@TheWindcrowAren’t you watching it on HBO first? Because there’s no content warning before the scene on HBO.
@@co_row sorry sarcasm lol. I agree with you. There have already been 2 blatant rapes in the show. This one isn't anything different. If you need warned after all this time then... you know..
Sansa never even MEETS Ramsay in the books.
The girl he marries is Jeyne Poole, Sansa's friend from book one, who is being passed off as Arya.
We also never see anything happen to her "on screen", as you said
Just an EXTRAORDINARILY questionable creative choice on the part of the showrunners here
Yes, and the whole argument from Littlefinger to try to justify Sansa marrying Ramsay doesn't make any sense ! How, in Sansa's position, is turning herself to her enemies who killed her family and being left alone at their mercy any sensible way to fight for her house ?
Especially since Sansa has already been in that position in King's Landing where she was powerless for 3 seasons, how can it be conceivable that this kind of strategy would make any sense ?
Sansa’s storyline is brutal. I do appreciate that through her character’s eyes, we get to see the illusions of a romanticized medieval history give way to the harsh realities (obviously, in a fictional universe, though). She starts off with naive notions of a happy marriage to a handsome and brave prince who is actually a monster, then we see her assume Littlefinger loves her and will protect her, only to see him use her as another play to reach his ultimate goal (while I know that may differ from the book Littlefinger, I kind of like that his “love” is actually quite selfish in the show). In actual history, women were often treated like trade assets and seen as sexual property from a very young age. Yet another horrific reality of humanity’s past. When I recently rewatched the show, my admiration and respect for Sansa grew even more than on the first watch. I do think we could have all been spared that scene (alluding to his ways would have been plenty terrible enough), but I have a feeling it was shown more for Theon’s story than for Sansa’s. It was definitely sickening to watch.
This is when the writing starts to take a dive and never recovers.
I love how good Angel is getting at the 'UA-cam stuff' like Call to Action and promoting the Patreon... he's a natural.
Next episode sponsored by the Cock Merchant.
Sansa is literally the writers punching bag and this doesn’t even happen in the books!! In the books Sansa is still at the Vale with little finger pretending to be his bastard daughter. This isn’t even Sansa’s storyline it’s Jeyne Poole. Also allegedly the writers waited till Sophie (the Sansa actress) turned 18 to give her this storyline and also D&D also allegedly joked around with Sophie telling her she was getting a love interest in season 5…. And it’s Ramsay Bolton 😭
Haha omg I LOVE Kenny!
Another good example of a shocking event that works because it made sense, was Jaime losing his hand.
Also, it’s the way that the showrunners have known Sophie Turner since she was 13 years old when she was cast, watched her grow up, and the moment she turned 18, had a rape scene written up for her to act out. A scene that does not happen within the canon of the books nor does it make sense politically for Littlefinger to set up.
I personally don’t mind this plot for multiple reasons.
When you’re going to have an extremely traumatic experience in the show like this, it has to go somewhere. Sansa going through this is devastating, but seeing where it ends up makes me not hate it in hindsight. It doesn’t mean we had to go this route, but I think it’s partially okay.
When a scene like this happens, what I’m looking for is that we see the character’s mental anguish with what they're going through and explore how it affects them (and if we’re lucky, having justice, or nice conclusion to the trauma). With Sansa’s plot, we get all those things.
Compare that to the scene between Jamie and Cersei in season 4. This scene goes absolutely NOWHERE. All I wanted from it was to see how that moment affected Cersei OR Jamie. But that literally doesn’t happen. We don’t get to see Cersei’s mental state of the pain her brother put on her. We don’t get to see the complicated feelings Jamie had afterwards because the writers just decided that scene didn’t exist after it happens. And for that, I find that scene much worse than Sansa and Ramsay’s.
[S6 SPOILERS FROM THIS POINT]
Like I said before, we didn’t need this plot for Sansa, but I’m okay with it because of what we get out of it. It’s not something that goes null and void. Sansa’s mental pain (and Theon’s) isn’t a one time thing and then it never gets discussed again (kind of how I feel about Daenerys and Drogo). It almost never goes away. Those experiences are forever a part of them (Sansa and Theon) now and it just is what it is, sadly. The way they overcome it is what is beautiful to see. The relationship we get out of this plot is such an emotional and important one. The reunion that we get between Sansa and Jon becomes even more intense and emotional because they found each other at their lowest. Jon’s response and actions towards the situation is effective. Sansa’s retelling of all of it is effective. It all just goes somewhere by her trauma existing instead of it being shoved away and never mentioned again like with Cersei and Jamie. The conclusion and revenge we get is glorious. And the most important part that makes it all okay in my eyes is the fact that Sansa eventually got agency in her own story. I’m a person that loves a slow burn character (like Sansa, Theon, and Jamie). When first watching season 5 and her entire plot during this time, I was frustrated and sad, but I held out hope if she got agency back in her life. And season 6 delivered that which makes everything previously written for Sansa fine in hindsight (not that what she goes through is okay, but from an outside writing standpoint). If she had never gotten power back in her life, than I would’ve had a huge issue with her storyline.
I also want to mention that the acting is so fantastic between everyone that I feel completely sold through the scenes. These actors seriously know what they’re doing.
I think it’s completely fine that people don’t like Sansa’s plot line in this season. Especially if it comes from a place of being too personal for the viewer. But some other people’s criticisms (normally book readers) of why it’s bad usually don’t come off right to me. Also, to mention that other people who had been wishing for Sansa to gain power through her story end up hating her when she finally gets it, so that confuses me as well. It’s a tricky discussion, in my opinion.
The Sansa thing was horrible when it aired, but it's almost WORSE looking back on it now that the show is finished cause her whole plot at Winterfell with Ramsay is just the story spinning it's wheels until the other subplots line up and her arc can move on. Like "oh Sansa needs something to do in season 5 uhhhhh lets re-traumatize her"
((SPOILERS))
When you think about it, it really doesn't go anywhere and it ALMOST exists in a vacuum. Once Sansa escapes Winterfell and reconnects with Jon, her arc basically picks back up where it left off at the end of season 4/very beginning of season 5, after a brief detour with all the Ramsay stuff where her character regresses for the sake of ~drama~. You could say "oh she needs these experiences with Ramsay so there's more payoff when he dies" but she didn't NEED a more personal reason to want revenge against him...his father killed her brother and he literally sacked Winterfell!! His death scene can play out almost exactly the same without all the r*pe taking place!!
And that's not to say that Sansa maturing and growing as a character would make her immune to sexual violence, but NARRATIVELY it literally does nothing for her in the long run. There were people arguing when this first aired that her experiences would further develop her character, and sure that CAN happen if handled correctly, but not only was it not necessary in this case....it literally didn't lead to ANYTHING...
I feel like this is the episode where people realized that Benioff and Weiss had no damn clue what they were doing and should have had zero business controlling where the show went.
its a big problem with SA depiction in western media, they make it a defining aspect of a womans character, when we would never dream of applying the same story beats to a male character
……yep
Sansa's storyline in season 5 really makes no sense logically. Realistically, littlefinger never would've given her up, cuz he's in love with her and also knows how valuable she is. In the books, Sansa staying in the vale basically still learning and playing the role of Alayne is more interesting. She's way too valuable to reclaiming the North, including her virtue, etc. as a Lady.
The way the writers built Sansa up in season 4 in her last appearance of lying so well to save Littlefinger from being blamed for Lysa's death, and it was clear Sansa knew Littlefinger wanted her, she was learning to use that to her advantage. Then, in season 5 for them to basically strip all of that little bit of power and freedom Sansa was gaining away was ridiculous and was the start of the downfall of the series tbh.
It just sucks we'll never get to see how some things in the book were progressing brought to life.
Also I LOVE that this guy is a Sansa stan, me too !! stood by her since foreverrrr and she's even better in the books, hopefully they'll be finished
Yea, and the handling of Sansa just gets worse as we go on. Her character stops following any internal consistency, and they seem to change the way they write her scene to scene... And half the stuff she starts to do never gets explained. I loved GRRMs preview Sansa chapter from TWOW, but I've also lost some faith in his writing abilities over the years, so I don't have much hope for TWOW being good even if it comes out.
Well a certain degree of blame has to be placed on Martin. "Just staying in the veil" doesn't present a conclusion. Doesn't move things forward. The show had to end, where the books haven't. Since the Bolton storyline already existed, it was a convenient way of putting Sansa back in the North to eventually recollide with Jon and Arya, while sticking to a pre-existing story in the books. And it reconnects Littlefinger to events as well, putting him into position as it moved towards the end.
Obviously it didn't result in a quality conclusion. Personally it isn't until post Battle of the Bastards that I really feel like things start go downhill. I don't mind the Sansa/Roose storyline too much. Especially since Roose was so brilliantly portrayed in the show.
@@starsimvidz I agree. Sansa was always one of the more difficult characters to bring to life cuz she’s such a mental character. We can’t hear her thoughts in the series.
But after season 5. The writers use her character as a pawn to bait viewers into stupid drama constantly making it seem as if she’s gonna betray her family or become like Cersei or Littlefinger. It’s all so poorly done.
They began just giving her moments of having those witty remarks / comebacks like Cersei has in King’s Landing. However, the core of Sansa’s character and something she realizes being trapped in King’s landing is her strength comes from her position as a Lady and presenting her nobility and skills. In the books, especially pretending to be Alayne. Sansa is so good at faking it all, hiding her true intentions, her true thoughts.
D&D focused too much on having to make characters tell the audience things like Sansa has became smart, etc. when that should be apparent. Instead of rushing the entire story, leaving out so many characters, giving Sansa and Arya TERRIBLE storylines for seasons 7 & 8. They could’ve actually expanded and finished properly developing her as the character she was meant to be.
@@starsimvidz yeah… sadly even if the books do get finished there’s a huge chance they won’t live up to what they could’ve been.
He’s put them off too long, I think it’s extremely likely he’s went back and changed it all several times. Especially after the series has ended, he’s so involved online with fans, he’s probably let their reactions and opinions affect his writing at this point.
@@FulcanMal I disagree. They could’ve easily found a way to get Sansa back to the North.
The issue also comes with how much they left out in the series. I understand they can only do so much, but HBO quite literally was prepared and offering to give D&D so many more seasons.
Instead of even making the seasons longer, they could’ve began splitting the books up to be able to include more characters/storylines that were left out, which affects possible scenarios for characters like Sansa that the books could be leading to…
I still see him as Mr Eko from Lost too. He was one of my favorite secondary characters.☺️💚
I always thought Dorne looked like Spain when the Moors came.
Sunday Tradition ya Angel watches GOT we watch HOTD and then chat at the stream at the end of the night ! 🤩
But doesn't Ramsey still do similar marital SA to Jeyne Poole even knowing that she is not Aarya Starkk?
Its not Sansa but still it did happen
Yes in the book it’s kind of worse what happens to Jayne because Ramsey makes Theon do stuff to her first.
Yeah, that’s why I don’t really understand book readers criticism on this situation because they make it sound like one character should’ve been raped, but not the other. In reality it should be devastating regardless. It’s just really weird to me. Especially cause it’s even worse in the books. If some people can’t watch it because it’s too traumatic, that’s completely valid. But others saying it’s bad because it was supposed to be Jeyne and not Sansa makes me uncomfortable.
Theon’s outfit during the Wedding is nearly identical to the one Robb Stark wore to the Red Wedding (maybe even the same possibly 😬)
18:09 Kenny is correct. nothing stupid like " women can't fight " , it's just they set up a situation that the actors aren't trained enough to do, have the protagonists fight off multiple attackers who would definitely not stand around and take turns to fight
You talk about Jorahs voice, but for me, everytime he speaks, i just hear his character from Tomb Raider! I guess..."My ignorance amuses me!" Lol
I agree with the editor. The entire Dorne arc is just really lame. Even a left handed knight would be able to skewer a person twirling a whip around her head soooo easily. Also Jamie and Bronn just walking right in to the palace. 🤣🤣
The sand snakes was the biggest disappointment for me when it comes to the tv series, they're like the opposite of the feel they have in the books, all very unique in their ways but they all gave a chilling impression of being just dangerous (Not to mention that the whole arch is much more complex), the bad choregraphy just made it even worst, generic af.
Especially given how the show nailed and upgraded other female characters like Osha, Margaery, and Olenna...Sometimes I forget that Natalie Dormers Margaery is basically a show original character...
idk how the Sand Snakes became B movie baddies.. and idk why the directing, camera work, choreography, etc all went down the drain in those scenes... AFFC and ADWD def needed massive cuts in order to be filmable., so why not just cut Dorne out instead of doing this D-grade version and give us back Bran, an actual main POV character....
@@starsimvidz B movie baddies lol! Nailed.
@@saul4568 what else can be used to describe them lol. just.. their little ninja costumes that they put on in order to sneak into their own backyard in broad daylight....
Sean's voice over intro to this series is so epic and iconic, i'm just voice syncing along with it every single time
When it comes to the fight scene in this episode, they had to rush to do it because something happened with the location to where they didn't have the time they thought they would have to film, so everything was rushed. It's the one fight scene in the show where you can tell that something had to go wrong lol. Most of the fight scenes are fantastic.
Sean's Tanktops have been fire the last couple episodes!
I hated season 5 on first watch because all my favorite characters were going THROUGH IT. And it mainly started in this episode with Margaery and Sansa. This was such a rough episode for me! I really do appreciate this season much more after seeing the entirety of the show.
Aw, that's awesome! I'm excited for Kenny's in person reaction!
OMG, Karl Tanner really does look like Willem Defoe! I can't unsee that now. 😂
The r*pe scene between Ramsey and Sansa didn't occur in the books. Sansa's best friend, Jeyne Poole was passed off as Arya and betrothed to Ramsey so the Bolton's could keep their hold on the North. The things that happen to Sansa in the show is presumably happening to Jeyne in the books.
that scene was even more chilling because Theon was wearing what Robb wore on Edmure's wedding night at the red wedding
Wonder what other kinds of merchants are in this world?!🤣🤣❤❤
Angel will have more titles than Daenerys if he keeps this up XD
*** Book Spoiler ***
In the books, Sansa is still in the Vale. She is not married to Ramsey. She is not married to anyone - she is posing as Littlefinger's bastard daughter, Alayne Stone. Sansa's childhood bestfriend, Jeyne Poole, was married off to Ramsey Bolton, as Arya Stark. Jeyne and Theon escape from Ramsey and head toward the Wall. I don't remember if Jeyne has made it to Castle Black yet, but Theon is now in the hands of Stannis Baratheon. Stannis and his daughter and wife are also all still alive in the books.
at this moment of the series, I would recommend to read also the books, if you don't want to hate this world at the end 😓
Closer and Closer to WINDS OF WINTER
Sand Snakes appearing out of nowhere and flippin' and turnin' together reminds me so much of Power Rangers from the 90's hahaha! (Although the power rangers had better choreography)
Kenny cooking with the text. The fight scene was dogshit.
I think it's more the skin from nails, cuticles, recedes from the nail than they keep growing.
I shared your rage Sean
The first 4 episodes of this season were leaked online before the season started. The Torrent era was great. This episode basically metoo'd the series. Sansa survived Joffrey then gets passed on to Ramsay in the show. People already knew Ramsay was a sick bastard and kind of got worn down by the Starks always losing (wait for it 😏). In the books, it was Jane Westerling that married Ramsay and passed off as Aria Stark. That stuff happened in the background.
jeyne poole....westerling was Robbs
@@Zeke1379 Ah thanks for the correction!
I'm with you Sean 1000% on the Sansa scene. This scene and one later in the season (I'll be very interested in your and Angel's take) really angered me. At some point it felt like they were just going for shock value because neither scene added anything to the story. We would've gotten the same message without them being so graphic.
I just realized that you’re the burlington bar guy
looooooooool, has never watched the opening once
i wouldn't call theon a pussy to me personally. he's clearly scared, and ramsey fucked him up mentally, and physically. what ramsey did to her isn't theons fault, that's all ramsey. don't forget ramsey can fight, theon can too, but at that moment ramsey would of killed him with that kind of rage he has already. what was he supposed to do tho? find a weapon? ramsey told him to stay there, if he would of moved, or made a sound, ramsey would of known and did something theon.
Agree with y'all on *that* scene. Gross, fucked, unnecessary and disappointing. A shame that they decided to film that, it's bereft of the tact that this show normally has.
I don't know, I don't feel strongly towards the Sansa rape scene one way or another. I think they were intending to bring Sansa more directly into the fold while also avoiding having to create a female charcter just to be raped, which is almost worst imo. I do find it odd how some people will say that this is better in the books just because Sansa doesn't get raped. That just brings up some uncomfortable questions about people being ok with rape as long as it doesn't happen to a character they like...
I think what we’re calling into question is the filmmaking itself. The fact that we are lingering highlighting and in someways fetishizing this plot point and to what end. It reaks (ha) of carelessness and callous artifice on the part of the director and screenwriters for being as dour and shocking as possible.
@SeanTanktop First of all, big fan lol. Your criticism is fair. I do think it's a bit of a lose-lose situation. If you depict the scene, then it could be misconstrued as being fetishist, but if you don't depict it, then people might feel like it robs the story of its power because we don't see Sansas POV (I remember some people not having issues with scene itself but more with Theon's reaction being made the focal point.) Its just an overall sensitive topic, which leads to any decision potentially being misinterpreted. My point being that it would not be an easy choice as a creator either way.
@@emmanuel6634 Second of all, many thanks. I get how you could be a lil benign about this scene in and of the world we are set, but also, like we say, to jump in to these waters is dicey BEYOND the best of storytellers. If done so it cannot be done flippantly. And....... it sorta feels flippant and deliberately salacious to the point of fetish. That's just how I feel, not speaking for Angel. Also, it's informed by the two of us (you and I) knowing where this is going. Some might say it works in the context of where Sansa heads as a character, but since I too also think that arc is ultimately forfeit of value, it's always gonna end with big fat zilch from me.
@@SeanTanktop It's definitely informed by my knowledge of where Sansa ends up, which I liked.
To go from joking about “a bit of rape” to being in disgust that the writers would dare to show rape on screen is dumb. An onscreen rape of a character we don’t know? That’s cool. But an onscreen rape of a character we care about? The scene just proves that as viewers we’ve become desensitized in the horror of this world. TBH I don’t care what they did in the book. In the show the scene serves the purpose of showing the severity of what happens to girls in this world and how even as Sansa finds her footing in the game of thrones, making her own plays, she is still a woman surrounded by men. No amount of cunning or scheming is gonna erase that reality. Not to mention this is her home yet she is miles away from safe.
This episode rightfully gets a lot of hate, but as someone who has Theon as one of my favorite characters in the show, Alfie Allen's acting is phenomenal.
Wish it didn't have to be showcased in this context though. A lot of the criticism is very valid.
I wish I was like Angel. Thrones was much better for those who were able to binge watch. It’s us die hard fans who it hit the most, & the extended time to theorize made it so much harder!
I actually totally disagree, the scene is disgusting but shit like that happens, Ramsay is a psycho and it needs to be show, also, it's not like they showed the gruesomess of it
Part of the difference is that it is not Sansa that is married to Ramsey in the books, but in fact, her friend Jeyne. And yes, I suppose we don't "see" as much in the chapter from the book (not complaining), but the implication is very much the same, and just as horrifying!
The notes from Kenny were particularly cathartic for me this episode. Lol. Season 5 was where I started to have issues.
But I agree with Angel, Dorn is amazing. But that's also because I have since read the books. :D lol.
wow I didn’t realize Echo was Croc, until I saw that smile to Jorah 😂 and thank you Kenny, that whole scene was trash. only cool part was (I can’t think of his character name, but Doran’s guardian with the large ax) when he goes to swing at Jaime and says “when you were whole, it would have been a good fight.” too bad he got done dirty as we’ve seen 😢 19:00 😂😂😂 exactly Sean, “well…😳” 26:00 gods, he is ON POINT 🤘🏻🔥
Also, thanks guys. I really appreciate seeing your abhorrence about the Sansa scene. And Sean is right, this was the first really obvious misstep from the creators, and it was a VERY BAD one. This episode is universally reviled because of the terrible treatment of the Sand Snake and inserting a fan favorite into a role that was not written for her and it made the fans incredibly irate.
@21:41: they did not torture him. Remember who he is working for? (who happens to be very eager to please Cersei at the moment?)
think this is 1 of the main reasons i cant watch the ramsay actor in any movie or show since. i can somewhat bend my mond to seeing the joffrey actor again, but i cant stand seeing the ramsay actor, i cant unsee him for that role.
Sorry to ask here, but what about the reaction to hotd 2x5 preview?
kept getting flagged and blocked for copyright for some reason, got a really special one and I'll try to sneak it in a lil' early this week
@@SeanTanktop ok, thank you for answering
I think Uncle Kevan is now HOK.😊
This episode is the worst episode and I cannot stand how they treated Sanza. They were building her up and it’s like the show creators cannot stand to have a strong woman without doing soemthing to drag her down and it always seems that they resort to 1 of 2 things and it’s sickening.
F*CK D&D
@SeanTankTop Did you finish The Acolyte? I don't see Episodes 6 and 7 in the playlist. I finished the season two nights ago, and the combat is still good.
It’s on the way!
18:00 Kenny 2024
Kenny? About your opinion on the fight scenes? Dude?
Agreed......
I've practiced swordsmanship since I was 5. This was........ ugh.....
This has a dark genre inspired by Japanese story telling called NTR.
ita with Kenny! The Sea Snakes were supposed to be badass (they were in the books), but they were so dumbed down in the show. It was painful to watch!
Title is wrong tho'... This is S5E6
fixed!
I had to put off watching these reactions cause I hate what they did to sansa / sophie turner here so much
Please have a reaction videos of Reacher series and The Lord of the rings: rings of power season 2 trailer. Thanks 👍
Kenny seeing through the show's razzle dazzle into the *problems* on the horizon...
Hair and nails don’t grow after you die. Your body dries up and the skin and flesh pull away from your nails and hair making them appear longer.
Absolutely hate this episode. Couldn't agree with you more Sean.
I think that is a overly dramatized reaction to Ramsey assaulting sansa, it's a upsetting scene but it's important for the narrative that you really want to hate Ramsey.
I try not to fake outrage, it's kinda obvious
I’ve never been more cool with being at odds with a commenter. And one who clearly didn’t listen to our conversation afterwards. We took massive issue with the fetishized nature of the filmmaking. Ramsay’s gaze is all over this scene and that’s what bothers us the most, not so much the plot point.
How does what happened here 'make no sense' and 'has nothing to do with the plotline' as some people claim here. The 'event' is literally mentioned in a good many future episodes and makes the battle of the bastards what it is, and also flavors Sansa's attitude towards Baelish.
It also furthers our understanding of how vile Ramsey is .