In this video I did some experiments with a TGI1-50/5 hydrogen thyratron. The circuit used in the experiments was discussed in detail. www.kerrywong.com/2019/03/03/e...
This video really brought back some memories... The F-106 Delta Dart I used to work on had a nice, powerful, high-maintenance Hughes radar in it, and I must say, that the trigger thyratron was hands-down the most beautiful tube you ever saw when it was conducting...think I still have one laying around here somewhere...
Brings back memories from the late 50's - early 60's working on long rage search radar (FPS-20, FPS-6). Of course our thyratrons were much bigger (VC1257 and 1749?). As I recall, they were pretty long lived. Thanks for the memories.
Excellent video. I've got a JRC IG35P Thyratron that was an on board spare for a 50kW X-Band radar. Early 80s tech. Scary things to be working on while they were operating.
Yeah, I wouldn't worry about it being a 'rectumfrier' but would worry about the x-ray bursts and the little swimmers. Play with this too much and your fairer half might not be able to play with something else that is near and dear.
Safety first!! When playing with insanely high voltage ALWAYS let somebody, whom you are not emotionally attached to and who does not owe you any money (though you can owe them money!!), who may or may not be wearing a red shirt, operate the apparatus.
that is a high current issue. not so much for high voltage he might be better off with heavy rubber gloves. but taking the ring off would be good practice also. Most of all having someone nearby to call 911 and know how to a defribulator kept nearby first aid knowledge for cardiac arrest.
We like the work. Would simply like to see you take a few precautions which those of us who have been around a lot of HV have either witnessed, or learned first hand (missing finger), the hard way. I'm sure your wife would like you to keep all your fingers. Especially is someone not so careful or knowledgeable copies. :)
@@tekvax01 Oh he's getting zapped alright... He just knows how much power to use and what part of the body for it to not cause any long-term effects. Once you get zapped by tube circuits enough, you can tolerate the pain well. I held onto a 470uF cap charged to 330V until it almost fully discharged because I was holding the amp and couldn't afford to drop it. Extreme pain, my wrist was red and swollen right where the lowest resistance path was, but my tubes were fine. Some people don't flinch from tasers...
Our CPS-9 radar had a similar thyratron tube. The Radar manual noted the this tube can produce X-Rays.. Also the cabinet door had a Xray warning tag/sticker!
I've always been fascinated with Thyratrons. Back in the early 1960s in 8th grade built a thyratron based proximity detector using a 2D21 miniature tube. Recently for fun I rebuilt the circuit.
2 weeks ago I received some 2D21 tubes that I ordered on ebay. I made a touch switch using that tube when I was in about the 8th grade also! There was an article in Popular Electronics, which I still have. Hope to build it again when I get the time. Glad I noticed the 2D21 in your comment. TC
@@sssur32 Cool - I posted the rebuild on my site. I found a scanned version of the old Popular Electronics article. That was my motivation for the rebuild. Made a few minor changes to the circuit. www.tschmidt.com/writings/Tube_Proximity_Detector.pdf So as an old fart did you like Carl & Jerry? Think my favorite was the skunk one
Connected internally you say, so there is a point to the reservoir besides controlling the H2 level. It can only be to conserve H2 to extend the shelf-life/non-operating lifetime of the tube. Probably because it is glass. The ceramic versions probably hold their H2 better.
@@TheCommuted Not sure what the reservoir is made of. I guess something with affinity to absorb H2 and release it when heated. I would think the glass and internal structures will absorb hydrogen readily. some indeed may be able to escape over time through the glass envelope too and limit the life.
Thank you very much for your well spoken, well presented demonstration, My compliments to you as an exemplary teacher of this subject mater which is typicaly difficult to grasp without presentations such as this one.
Pulse duration also counts. Life of the cathode will be severely degraded if you force a pulse duration longer than the maximum specified. (due to ion bombardment) Of course in your use with a few dozen pulses you will not notice any degradation, but after thousands of pulses the tube will be trash.
@@c2n10 Shorter pulses are not guaranteed to reliably trigger the tube. It would be unlikely to harm the tube at all but you may find the tube would not reliably trigger under all conditions.
Thank you . You are on my “go to” list of channels. Right alongside WA2EW (Alan w.) / IMSAI guy / tx RX / RF newbie / etc.. Great video. Thank you again.
An interesting device Kerry, thanks for the video. But given the high voltages involved, I would like to have seen a more sturdy testbed system. Not just for safety, but for clarity as well. And I would also have liked to see some scope traces, and possibly some characterization of the device. eg: trigger voltages required, variation with hydrogen generator voltage etc.. But I know some of that would take a lot more work to do, so thanks anyway.
are we able to get microwave frequency by using tubelight circuit diodes just by using neodymium magnet around the tubelight or diodes which are chirping during starting
I had experience working with a thyratron tube back in 1969-70. IT was in the transmitter module of the APS/20 airborne RADAR system installed in the SP-2H Navy patrol plane. This system involved over 20 "black boxes" and formed a one megawatt airborne search RADAR system. The tube was about 14 inches tall and about 5-6 inches across. It was said to operate at 12,000 volts and 400 milliamps. The "box" it was in weighed over 400 pounds and included the magnatron.
Thanks for an interesting video. Beware of 100R resistor failure at some point. They are usually not rated for high pulse current and high voltage. I've have resistors fail in almost similar use by pulses. In my application the caps were a lot smaller (as well as voltages) and the resistors were not as beefy as 100W ones but I still needed very heavy overrating to make them last long enough. I would not trust the load emptying the capasitor bank (especially if resistor can fail in open mode) nor any bleader to work properly. I always double check with a meter and preferably also short it out mechanically before touching the parts. i got very carefull after a couple smaller jolts from (smaller) capasitors that did not blead properly. Better safe than sorry.
Isn't there another solid state method? Something like 20 lower value (thus cheaper) transistors that are switched together in parallel? Only caveat from what I understand is that they have to be matched to each other within a narrow tolerance, as any triggering too soon or too late could cause problems. I wonder how that would compare in terms of cost and effectiveness vs. the big transistor and this particular vacuum tube?
At first I was thinking this was like a Gyrotron: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrotron However, I saw the number of cycles and realized it is not used in the same way as an oscillator like I was thinking... no where near 100's of GHz: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_oscillator Beautiful device and excellent detailed presentation. Thanks for sharing.
I was looking at Thyratrons recently for building a surge generator and also Pyratrons but difficult to get them out of the USA as they can be used as nuclear triggers. I do have some information on various tubes and data on them. You can buy mosfet based series switches I think these modules are used on the Schaffner surge generator. Difficult to homebrew with the multiple trigger coils. I think I was looking for something that would handle a 200 Amp peak current fed via a 12 ohm source impedance. Also want a 1uS rise time. Very interesting and timely video you may have saved me some work. I guess it’s also a low side driver which is a problem for my application although maybe you can float the filament as is done for high voltage rectifier valves. But this looks like a lot of fun.
Speaking from experience you don’t want to be using your nice lab power supplies anywhere near these high voltage. An old valve radio should provide all you need including the heater and ht trigger. I’m definitely a bit worried for you using the low side switch as your not isolated from that capacitor bank. When I discharge my capacitor banks half the DVMs in a metre radius crash. I’m not going to try teaching you to suck eggs as I’m sure you know the risk but be careful it’s dangerous stuff. How about building an induction coil and making emp device. Love the channel best regards Chris
Great video and excellent description. I hope you have a secondary way to discharge the capacitor other than the thyratron! After firing through a DUT, without measurement there's no way to know how much of the capacitor's energy was actually released. The resistors, for example, may have blown open and not fully discharged the caps. Do you have a shorting strap or other method to discharge after testing?
Nothing special about the output capacitor, it's just the capacitors used in the voltage doubler. The DUT is simply placed between the 100 ohm current limiting resistor and the anode of the thyratron.
FPS-66/67 A large and beautiful klystron, encased in lead and liquid cooled, dumped its energy into a massive pulse forming network and was discharged into the waveguide by the hydrogen thyratron, creating one radar pulse.
I have a question. I'm trying to build a hydrogen torch. We spoke briefly about my power supply and I watched another guys video about stacking DC power supplies. Heres my idea. Stack two 30V 10A and then add another one on the back side of the hho cell. My thoughts are keeping the electrical flow going while not pushing the lead ps.
I have a galon jug size thyratron in my hoard... 25kV 400A rated. Kind of thinking about tesla coil... I might even have capacitors needed for this, but the power supply..... Nothing short of igbt powered inverter fed from all three phases would give me decent repetition rate.. although a beefy zvs and flyback for first test... Kind of scary
I think spark gaps conduct more current, in the 100's of amps, and it's mostly because the gas is denser, i.e. atmospheric instead of whatever that hydrogen fill is. (Wish I knew.)
Also, if you feed a spark-gap enough current, it melts & vaporizes small spots on the metal electrodes, and the metal vapor ionizes and conducts even more current. Then you notice little burn craters on your electrodes.
So, it looks lime s1 is more for charging the trigger capacitor yet it is a push button. I thought that you were discribing it as such. My queztions are wbich is it? And how do you do the other? Charge and fire the trigger circuit?
Hi Kerry, could you please explain from your spec sheet why the pulse duration parameters are listed as 4 - 12us and you used a 30mS pulse to drive the Thyratron? Obviously it works, but could it cause any damage to to the device? Much appreciated!
So has anyone used these in a Tesla setup just curious?
5 років тому
Really nice! Do you think that is possible to have these thyratrons to have around 10ns HV (~2kV) pulse width? Or what would be the minimum pulse width for these devices? Doesn't need to be your specific model.
The pulse width would largely depend on the amount of charge the capacitor can hold and what kind of pulse shaping network is used as once the thyratron starts conducting it will remain conductive until the current flow drops to 0 (so essentially the anode voltage drops to 0)
The spec sheet translation Kerry showed, mentioned 0.04usec, 40ns. That would be the turn-on time or output pulse risetime. So 10sec pulse-width might not be doable with that tube.
I recently came into possession of a deuterium thyratron in pristine condition. It is like twice as long and twice as wide as the one in this video. I have zero knowledge about electronics and feel grossly underqualified to own such a device. What do they do? What are they used for? After watching this video, I feel like I got a pretty good deal for the ten dollars that I payed for it. 😅
Can the two 6V inputs be AC or DC, even if used separately or independently? Thanks so much for this rare video--Do you know of an other videos that show the operation of the more powerful white ceramic styles?
The filament and the reservoir heater can be either AC or DC and doesn't have to be powered independently. I haven't seen any other video on the detailed operation of other thyratrons...
PS.... Craftsman makes nice tools, but is that meter a CAT (IV) Rating ? Just a thought... Darn Innovative Test of a very cool tube component ! Nice Scopes in the background too... I would love seeing this components characteristics on a multi channel o-scope, to see the different thresholds and resultant triggered effects !!!
I have a solution for your dead regulator problem. Try a NPN power transistor, tying collector and base together with the input pin of the regulator, and the emitter connected to the output pin. Overcurrent spikes can route through the transistor and still be regulated.
Arnold Pearl - rather few any more. Physicists like it for having reaching a certain power range in a certain short time that most other switches can't, and multiple tubes like it used to trigger explosives in multiple spots, simultaneous to the microsecond, for triggering Hydrogen bombs.
The high voltage, high current pulses will destroy the switching transistors in the BLDC motor immediately. This could possibly run a carbon brush motor, but I worry about arcing between the segments of the commutator, and current pulses de-Gaussing the magnets. The voltage is just too high. if you use an inductor and capacitor to absorb the pulses, and turn them into a continuous low voltage, then perhaps you could run either of those motors from a high voltage supply.
Two kinds of BLDC motors: those with transistor commutator circuits built into the case, and those without, where 3 leads go straight to 3 motor-windings, needing an external commutator circuit. The high voltage from this tube would be bad for both kinds, and this tube can't turn itself off, once triggered it gets stuck in the ON state until the current fades to near-zero, which is why it's used almost exclusively to discharge capacitors. It's much like an SCR. In contrast, MOSFETs and IGBTs do both swotch-ON and switch-OFF. So they can drive a winding as long as it needs, then stop.
@@jimswenson9991 The second one you mention is a three phase AC synchronous motor. In model airplanes, that external circuit is referred to as an electronic speed control. They require low voltage, but a lot of current. They often run at 30 amps or higher, but those tiny motors, owing to high RPM, can easily exceed 1/2 horsepower!
Noise pollution? I regularly hear others attempting to force their favorite noise onto me, people's dogs, hiphop, xmas music, kids screaming. As long as I'm not interrupting a bird chirping morning, phukem. 2000 volts, 6 joules, music to my ears. What? Don't you love it? Kids these days.
Did I miss something? What is the application of this cool Russian tube. Other than being EMP proof. EDIT: One google later I'm embarrassed. My first job in electronics was at Crydom Controls in El Segundo, CA. a division of International Rectifier (circa 1973). I would build small runs of high power controllers using very large SCR's & heatsinks. Typical range 480V at 100A. Thanks for the video.
i dont understand why you had 3.5KV on the caps when you had not closed the gate yet.... isnt the whole idea of a tube to only pass voltage when you close the gate. you showed a schematic and then showed the circuit with all new components. such as the caps, voltage doubler and transformer. you also named the parts in reverse order to what they were on the schematic. confusing. why is there 3.5KV on the out put of the tube with the gate open. this does not make sense to me?
Did you noticed while burning first resistor, Thyratron was gloging with still light (no pulse)? propably coz of arc keeping current flow for a second or longer.
Nope. You need at least several dozen kV of plate voltage to have any noticeable X-ray output. Technically, very soft x-rays could have possibly been generated at a very low efficiency, and immediately blocked by the tube's metal cage and glass envelope.
@@cristinavekos5808 if nano tunnels made inside the magnetrons metal structure then by increasing surface area more electron are coming out in the same voltage like filaments produced photons so more surface produced more electron and more cheap technology we have for cooking it's can produce handpowered induction also so we warming up the food whenever their are no any electricity this technology can used on mars where we have to use hand power to regulated the mind power since muscle memory are better than brain power, the ultimate animal instincts of humans
I would like to see a measurement across the high voltage capacitor, after the discharge. Turn off the high voltage transformer, hit the button, then measure the high voltage capacitor, to see what the residual voltage is, after the Thyratron cuts off. The small capacitor stores 21.4 joules of energy at 3500 volts. Not much. I wonder if an inductor could replace the 100 Ohm, 25 watt resistor, to pass a greater percentage of the stored energy into the load. even if the Thyristor exceeds 50 amps, it won't happen long enough to cause any spot heating, or excessive temperature rise on the cathode. The hope is, that the inductor will saturate, allowing a high current to flow, after the arc has established, to keep from pitting the cathode, or the anode. My application for such a thyratron, would be to re-gauss ALNICO magnets. Contacts don't tend to hold up really well to repeated capacitive discharges.
Vincent Robinette - inductor, I think so. Saturating, I think it would pit, I think an arc can condensing into hotspots, being exactly why the current rating is 50a.
@@jimswenson9991 The only reason I think you can get away with slightly higher, is because of the extremely short duration from the 20 or so joules of energy stored in that little capacitor. I don't think you could do that repeatedly. You need to stay within it's ratings, if it's driven by, or made into an oscillator.
This is the only Thyratron I have so I wanted to be a bit conservative here... The 50A maximum current rating is for pulsed application so I am not sure how much more you could pass without damaging the tube even if it's just a brief pulse. But I could definitely reduce the resistor connected in series as as of now the peak current is no where near 50A.
@@KerryWongBlog I don't blame you. That's probably a very rare tube, and would be difficult, and probably very expensive to replace. That said, it's rather useless, if you don't use it.
It's to discharge capacitors into microwave magnetrons, for radar. It produces a short duration high power pulse of microwave radiation, so they can measure how long it takes to be reflected from the target back to the receiver antenna. They can then determine how far away the target is. The very first microwave ovens, called "radar range" used these exact magnetrons, similar to what are used today.
@@lostspace5811 That's exactly right. It sends a focused beam of microwaves into the atmosphere, and looks for a reflected signal from incoming craft. It's a short duration high amplitude pulse. While harmless to humans and birds, Pilots of aircraft know when they've been pinged, because it makes a distinct "Click" in their headsets for their two-way radios.
I thought that I would be buried only once. Then along came university physics. Buried in schematics and equations. Extremely dangerous. But I think that I would be 'somewhat' more nervous about ten amperes than one thousand volts. Super fascinating vid, thanks so much.
Dangerous setup. Secure everything for a start. Put that microswitch in a plastic box. Mount the tube in a socket and mount it vertical. Use crimps where you can.
My gosh, this is cool, but don't do this at home. This circuit has enough current delivery capacity to kill you outright if you're careless or unlucky !!!
Time was when these were restricted under "dual use" regulations, because of their possible use in nuclear weapon firing circuits. Now you can by them on Ebay. Duh!
@@motorbikemadness5773 - Sorry, but you are WRONG. AS HE USED "DUH", IT WAS CORRECT. Why Duh instead of Doh, Duh is used as if saying, for his reply, Duh, so much security and now they sold on the open market. Doh, would be used if no one knew they could be bought on eBay as if to say, "DOH, purchased on ebay.....really???", as if he was totally surprised!! Now let me try a stab at it, "DUH, go back to school and learn some English, ya' bozo!!!"
But you didn't test to see if you can use the linear region if it does exist Vacuum tubes are both switches and amps. That tube you tested has the same layout as a regular vacuum tubes if you don't use the Hydrogen element
They are similar to a SCR, so once it's triggered it will stay on, until the voltage on the anode drops, or becomes negative in respect to the cathode. So ,no, I do not think you could use it as an amplifier.
Security first? Well you haved killed a small 100Ω resitor with a puls. This means, the Device comes in an undefined state. Asume the it opens contanct and there is some more chance in your Capacitor. After short discharging the device fast, some capacitors regain charce from ε-effects. There is no other discharge Path and you Touch the Device with your Fingers .... YOU CAN DIE QUITE FAST ... ONE STUDI COLLEGE DIES WITH HIGH VOLTAGE RESUDUAL CHARGE FROM CAPACITORS!
Yes, working on any high voltage circuit is potentially dangerous. The capacitor has bleed resistors on them, but it would only work when the power is removed and in this case, the capacitor is always recharged after discharging.
This video really brought back some memories... The F-106 Delta Dart I used to work on had a nice, powerful, high-maintenance Hughes radar in it, and I must say, that the trigger thyratron was hands-down the most beautiful tube you ever saw when it was conducting...think I still have one laying around here somewhere...
Brings back memories from the late 50's - early 60's working on long rage search radar (FPS-20, FPS-6). Of course our thyratrons were much bigger (VC1257 and 1749?). As I recall, they were pretty long lived. Thanks for the memories.
greetings grandpa
where i can find schematics of old days radars ?
Excellent video. I've got a JRC IG35P Thyratron that was an on board spare for a 50kW X-Band radar. Early 80s tech. Scary things to be working on while they were operating.
thanks to AvE i can't help but hearing "silicon controlled rectumfrier"
i could see the angry pixies... :)))
Same! 😂
Yeah, I wouldn't worry about it being a 'rectumfrier' but would worry about the x-ray bursts and the little swimmers. Play with this too much and your fairer half might not be able to play with something else that is near and dear.
LMAO
At 2:46 he was doing experiments with what LGBT?
what a super interesting device! thank you for showing it off :)
Safety first!!
When playing with insanely high voltage ALWAYS let somebody, whom you are not emotionally attached to and who does not owe you any money (though you can owe them money!!), who may or may not be wearing a red shirt, operate the apparatus.
Well done, just recommend removing your wedding ring while playing with high voltages.
Adding some risk of a grumpy wife if she sees your ring finger empty.
Yes but grumpy wives can take your head off ... @Joel Hacker
lol :) @Demo
that is a high current issue. not so much for high voltage he might be better off with heavy rubber gloves. but taking the ring off would be good practice also. Most of all having someone nearby to call 911 and know how to a defribulator kept nearby first aid knowledge for cardiac arrest.
We like the work. Would simply like to see you take a few precautions which those of us who have been around a lot of HV have either witnessed, or learned first hand (missing finger), the hard way. I'm sure your wife would like you to keep all your fingers. Especially is someone not so careful or knowledgeable copies. :)
Hi Kerry. Been following you since eevblog posted a video of yours a year ago. Thanks for a year of great videos.
Thanks!
Great explanation, now I know what a thryatron is and how it works. Thanks. Also glad you're doing this experiment not Electroboom.
Electroboom videos are created for the kids and number of likes, this video is not for the kids and likes.
@@ecka333 don't get me wrong, I love electroboom. I'm one of his millions of viewers
@@CraigHollabaugh I love electroboom's videos as well. He certainly has a talent!
You, of course, realise that he isn't ACTUALLY getting shocked! It's all an act!!
@@tekvax01 Oh he's getting zapped alright... He just knows how much power to use and what part of the body for it to not cause any long-term effects. Once you get zapped by tube circuits enough, you can tolerate the pain well. I held onto a 470uF cap charged to 330V until it almost fully discharged because I was holding the amp and couldn't afford to drop it. Extreme pain, my wrist was red and swollen right where the lowest resistance path was, but my tubes were fine. Some people don't flinch from tasers...
thanks for posting Kerry , very informative , really enjoyed it . liked and subbed .
Thanks Garry!
Our CPS-9 radar had a similar thyratron tube. The Radar manual noted the this tube can produce X-Rays.. Also the cabinet door had a Xray warning tag/sticker!
I was actually wondering if there was an ionizing radiation pulse with each pulse of that trigger. It would be interesting to see that measured.
That was awesome and very informative. I'm always curious about rare devices especially valves. Thanks so much for sharing. 😉👌
You are welcome John!
I've always been fascinated with Thyratrons. Back in the early 1960s in 8th grade built a thyratron based proximity detector using a 2D21 miniature tube. Recently for fun I rebuilt the circuit.
2 weeks ago I received some 2D21 tubes that I ordered on ebay. I made a touch switch using that tube when I was in about the 8th grade also! There was an article in Popular Electronics, which I still have. Hope to build it again when I get the time. Glad I noticed the 2D21 in your comment. TC
@@sssur32 Cool - I posted the rebuild on my site. I found a scanned version of the old Popular Electronics article. That was my motivation for the rebuild. Made a few minor changes to the circuit.
www.tschmidt.com/writings/Tube_Proximity_Detector.pdf
So as an old fart did you like Carl & Jerry? Think my favorite was the skunk one
what gas did you use in the tube, and did you use a vacuum pump?
Great demo and explanation!
Thanks Jason!
Great, very complicated resistor burner ;) Had lot of fun wathing it :)
@Paul Patterson Agreed, that's not a pretty injury.
Thank you, Dave Kim!! 👍😉
Great explanation!
Thank you sir
For great description on thyratron working in very much clarity its application in radar transmission.
Fantastic video thank you! Very informative indeed!
nicely done. Cleaver feature in your tube, in my H2 thyratron the heater and reservoir are internally parallel.
Connected internally you say, so there is a point to the reservoir besides controlling the H2 level. It can only be to conserve H2 to extend the shelf-life/non-operating lifetime of the tube. Probably because it is glass. The ceramic versions probably hold their H2 better.
@@TheCommuted Not sure what the reservoir is made of. I guess something with affinity to absorb H2 and release it when heated. I would think the glass and internal structures will absorb hydrogen readily. some indeed may be able to escape over time through the glass envelope too and limit the life.
@@tuopeeks maybe palladium or titanium as a sponge
Very cool Kerry.
You are welcome!
Thank you very much for your well spoken, well presented demonstration,
My compliments to you as an exemplary teacher of this subject mater which is typicaly difficult to grasp without presentations such as this one.
Pulse duration also counts. Life of the cathode will be severely degraded if you force a pulse duration longer than the maximum specified. (due to ion bombardment) Of course in your use with a few dozen pulses you will not notice any degradation, but after thousands of pulses the tube will be trash.
@@c2n10 Shorter pulses are not guaranteed to reliably trigger the tube. It would be unlikely to harm the tube at all but you may find the tube would not reliably trigger under all conditions.
Thank you . You are on my “go to” list of channels.
Right alongside WA2EW (Alan w.) / IMSAI guy / tx RX / RF newbie / etc..
Great video. Thank you again.
An interesting device Kerry, thanks for the video.
But given the high voltages involved, I would like to have seen a more sturdy testbed system. Not just for safety, but for clarity as well. And I would also have liked to see some scope traces, and possibly some characterization of the device. eg: trigger voltages required, variation with hydrogen generator voltage etc..
But I know some of that would take a lot more work to do, so thanks anyway.
Thanks for the feedback!
are we able to get microwave frequency by using tubelight circuit diodes just by using neodymium magnet around the tubelight or diodes which are chirping during starting
I had experience working with a thyratron tube back in 1969-70. IT was in the transmitter module of the APS/20 airborne RADAR system installed in the SP-2H Navy patrol plane. This system involved over 20 "black boxes" and formed a one megawatt airborne search RADAR system. The tube was about 14 inches tall and about 5-6 inches across. It was said to operate at 12,000 volts and 400 milliamps. The "box" it was in weighed over 400 pounds and included the magnatron.
Thanks for the first hand info!
Thanks for an interesting video.
Beware of 100R resistor failure at some point. They are usually not rated for high pulse current and high voltage. I've have resistors fail in almost similar use by pulses. In my application the caps were a lot smaller (as well as voltages) and the resistors were not as beefy as 100W ones but I still needed very heavy overrating to make them last long enough.
I would not trust the load emptying the capasitor bank (especially if resistor can fail in open mode) nor any bleader to work properly. I always double check with a meter and preferably also short it out mechanically before touching the parts. i got very carefull after a couple smaller jolts from (smaller) capasitors that did not blead properly. Better safe than sorry.
" i got very carefull after a couple smaller jolts from (smaller) capasitors that did not blead properly" -- yep, I am sure we've all been there :-)
Isn't there another solid state method? Something like 20 lower value (thus cheaper) transistors that are switched together in parallel? Only caveat from what I understand is that they have to be matched to each other within a narrow tolerance, as any triggering too soon or too late could cause problems. I wonder how that would compare in terms of cost and effectiveness vs. the big transistor and this particular vacuum tube?
At first I was thinking this was like a Gyrotron:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrotron
However, I saw the number of cycles and realized it is not used in the same way as an oscillator like I was thinking... no where near 100's of GHz:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_oscillator
Beautiful device and excellent detailed presentation. Thanks for sharing.
GREAT VIDEO !!!
I was looking at Thyratrons recently for building a surge generator and also Pyratrons but difficult to get them out of the USA as they can be used as nuclear triggers. I do have some information on various tubes and data on them. You can buy mosfet based series switches I think these modules are used on the Schaffner surge generator. Difficult to homebrew with the multiple trigger coils. I think I was looking for something that would handle a 200 Amp peak current fed via a 12 ohm source impedance. Also want a 1uS rise time. Very interesting and timely video you may have saved me some work. I guess it’s also a low side driver which is a problem for my application although maybe you can float the filament as is done for high voltage rectifier valves. But this looks like a lot of fun.
Speaking from experience you don’t want to be using your nice lab power supplies anywhere near these high voltage. An old valve radio should provide all you need including the heater and ht trigger. I’m definitely a bit worried for you using the low side switch as your not isolated from that capacitor bank. When I discharge my capacitor banks half the DVMs in a metre radius crash. I’m not going to try teaching you to suck eggs as I’m sure you know the risk but be careful it’s dangerous stuff. How about building an induction coil and making emp device. Love the channel best regards Chris
Great video, dude :)
Thanks!
Great video and excellent description.
I hope you have a secondary way to discharge the capacitor other than the thyratron! After firing through a DUT, without measurement there's no way to know how much of the capacitor's energy was actually released. The resistors, for example, may have blown open and not fully discharged the caps. Do you have a shorting strap or other method to discharge after testing?
Can you post the complete circuit with the ouptut capacitor and the voltade multiplier and the DUT?
Thanks
Nothing special about the output capacitor, it's just the capacitors used in the voltage doubler. The DUT is simply placed between the 100 ohm current limiting resistor and the anode of the thyratron.
Is that a good idea to put it vertically? Is it working properly in horizontal position?
The cathode wire should have been the same gauge as the anode, did you forget that ?
more worried about capacitor sparks causing global warming I suppose is why.
FPS-66/67 A large and beautiful klystron, encased in lead and liquid cooled, dumped its energy into a massive pulse forming network and was discharged into the waveguide by the hydrogen thyratron, creating one radar pulse.
Oddly sensual
Tell me more. ;-)
I have a question. I'm trying to build a hydrogen torch. We spoke briefly about my power supply and I watched another guys video about stacking DC power supplies. Heres my idea. Stack two 30V 10A and then add another one on the back side of the hho cell. My thoughts are keeping the electrical flow going while not pushing the lead ps.
I have a galon jug size thyratron in my hoard... 25kV 400A rated. Kind of thinking about tesla coil... I might even have capacitors needed for this, but the power supply..... Nothing short of igbt powered inverter fed from all three phases would give me decent repetition rate.. although a beefy zvs and flyback for first test... Kind of scary
This was awesome. When are you making version II with a tesla coil in series? Are spark gap limited in current like this tube?
I think spark gaps conduct more current, in the 100's of amps, and it's mostly because the gas is denser, i.e. atmospheric instead of whatever that hydrogen fill is. (Wish I knew.)
Also, if you feed a spark-gap enough current, it melts & vaporizes small spots on the metal electrodes, and the metal vapor ionizes and conducts even more current. Then you notice little burn craters on your electrodes.
Kerry can you construct a circuit using this to pulse a BLDC motor and show it working?
Tube voltage is too high. 3000v pulses would break down insulation in the motor's windings.
So, it looks lime s1 is more for charging the trigger capacitor yet it is a push button. I thought that you were discribing it as such.
My queztions are wbich is it? And how do you do the other? Charge and fire the trigger circuit?
the circuit charges via the current limit resistor (not shown in schematic, but is on the HV board), the switch is for triggering the thyratron.
Hi Kerry, could you please explain from your spec sheet why the pulse duration parameters are listed as 4 - 12us and you used a 30mS pulse to drive the Thyratron? Obviously it works, but could it cause any damage to to the device? Much appreciated!
You are a brave man.....
So has anyone used these in a Tesla setup just curious?
Really nice! Do you think that is possible to have these thyratrons to have around 10ns HV (~2kV) pulse width? Or what would be the minimum pulse width for these devices? Doesn't need to be your specific model.
The pulse width would largely depend on the amount of charge the capacitor can hold and what kind of pulse shaping network is used as once the thyratron starts conducting it will remain conductive until the current flow drops to 0 (so essentially the anode voltage drops to 0)
The spec sheet translation Kerry showed, mentioned 0.04usec, 40ns. That would be the turn-on time or output pulse risetime. So 10sec pulse-width might not be doable with that tube.
10ns, I mean.
I recently came into possession of a deuterium thyratron in pristine condition. It is like twice as long and twice as wide as the one in this video. I have zero knowledge about electronics and feel grossly underqualified to own such a device. What do they do? What are they used for?
After watching this video, I feel like I got a pretty good deal for the ten dollars that I payed for it. 😅
So it's essentially a capacitor?
Can the two 6V inputs be AC or DC, even if used separately or independently?
Thanks so much for this rare video--Do you know of an other videos that show the operation of the more powerful white ceramic styles?
The filament and the reservoir heater can be either AC or DC and doesn't have to be powered independently. I haven't seen any other video on the detailed operation of other thyratrons...
Thanks for showing, I can use this for my coil gun.
@Kerry Wong
Don't be lazy
Make some slip-on connectors for the tube pins !
I don't have any that fits those pins...
@@KerryWongBlog
Make some !!
PS.... Craftsman makes nice tools, but is that meter a CAT (IV) Rating ? Just a thought... Darn Innovative Test of a very cool tube component ! Nice Scopes in the background too... I would love seeing this components characteristics on a multi channel o-scope, to see the different thresholds and resultant triggered effects !!!
Can you tell me what this valve is used for ? I might have missed it in the first part ?
High powered thyratrons are routinely used in radars. The one I tested here is a medium powered one and is intended for generic switching operations.
Used on medical linear accelerator.
Hey, I wonder if when you trigger it it causes some RF interferences around, that maybe a dumb question but RF is like magic for me :p
Like any plasma discharges, it will generate RF interference due to the pulsed discharge.
How come this tube does not explode violently, since it has hydrogen in it, and an arc as well?
Simple...The absence of oxygen. There's nothing for the hydrogen to react with.
How to find out which pin in a tube is the heater ?
Cool vid. Now make tesla coil triggered by one instead of loud spark gap ;)
I have a solution for your dead regulator problem. Try a NPN power transistor, tying collector and base together with the input pin of the regulator, and the emitter connected to the output pin. Overcurrent spikes can route through the transistor and still be regulated.
How does the voltage drop over the thyratron compare to a high voltage igbt? Great video btw
Thanks! The voltage drop is quite significant and could be in the hundred volt range according to some data sheet that I have seen.
What are the practical applications ?
Arnold Pearl - rather few any more. Physicists like it for having reaching a certain power range in a certain short time that most other switches can't, and multiple tubes like it used to trigger explosives in multiple spots, simultaneous to the microsecond, for triggering Hydrogen bombs.
Beautiful
What happens if you don't power the hydrogen generator ?
TRY A STACK OF 1000V OR 800V THYRISTORSTriggering the lowest thyristor should trigger them all,. 4 x 1000v thyristors should be ok for 3500v
Starts of with a warning for 'proper equipment' while showing a tube with wires wound around the pins instead of a socket :)
Wire wrapping is an absolutely legit way of prototyping and even building production circuits. Used to be very popular. Not so common any more though.
@@signalworks in the words of Jeff Dunham's Peanut ... WOOOOOOOOSH.
@@xConundrumx Thanks, r/ihavereddit
Can you control or run a Bldc motor with these?
sure but not very fast switching ... few kHz. Low rotational speed high voltage motor.
Not too hard to learn to use power MOSFETs for that.
The high voltage, high current pulses will destroy the switching transistors in the BLDC motor immediately. This could possibly run a carbon brush motor, but I worry about arcing between the segments of the commutator, and current pulses de-Gaussing the magnets. The voltage is just too high. if you use an inductor and capacitor to absorb the pulses, and turn them into a continuous low voltage, then perhaps you could run either of those motors from a high voltage supply.
Two kinds of BLDC motors: those with transistor commutator circuits built into the case, and those without, where 3 leads go straight to 3 motor-windings, needing an external commutator circuit. The high voltage from this tube would be bad for both kinds, and this tube can't turn itself off, once triggered it gets stuck in the ON state until the current fades to near-zero, which is why it's used almost exclusively to discharge capacitors. It's much like an SCR. In contrast, MOSFETs and IGBTs do both swotch-ON and switch-OFF. So they can drive a winding as long as it needs, then stop.
@@jimswenson9991 The second one you mention is a three phase AC synchronous motor. In model airplanes, that external circuit is referred to as an electronic speed control. They require low voltage, but a lot of current. They often run at 30 amps or higher, but those tiny motors, owing to high RPM, can easily exceed 1/2 horsepower!
sweet tech
Noise pollution? I regularly hear others attempting to force their favorite noise onto me, people's dogs, hiphop, xmas music, kids screaming.
As long as I'm not interrupting a bird chirping morning, phukem.
2000 volts, 6 joules, music to my ears. What? Don't you love it? Kids these days.
Wanna smack my neighbors in the mouth, mowing the lawn early in the morning... Phukem indeed
Did I miss something? What is the application of this cool Russian tube. Other than being EMP proof. EDIT: One google later I'm embarrassed. My first job in electronics was at Crydom Controls in El Segundo, CA. a division of International Rectifier (circa 1973). I would build small runs of high power controllers using very large SCR's & heatsinks. Typical range 480V at 100A. Thanks for the video.
use it to make a shoulder fired rail gun
In the transfer to the load
i dont understand why you had 3.5KV on the caps when you had not closed the gate yet.... isnt the whole idea of a tube to only pass voltage when you close the gate. you showed a schematic and then showed the circuit with all new components. such as the caps, voltage doubler and transformer. you also named the parts in reverse order to what they were on the schematic. confusing. why is there 3.5KV on the out put of the tube with the gate open. this does not make sense to me?
Did you noticed while burning first resistor, Thyratron was gloging with still light (no pulse)? propably coz of arc keeping current flow for a second or longer.
Советский тиратрон в Штатах? А есть американские аналоги?
The question is did it generate X-rays?
Nope. You need at least several dozen kV of plate voltage to have any noticeable X-ray output.
Technically, very soft x-rays could have possibly been generated at a very low efficiency, and immediately blocked by the tube's metal cage and glass envelope.
use neodymium magnet like magnetrons do then will it become a sasta jugaad like that
Magnatrons use electron steering/ charge accumulation technique. Think steam whistle,.
@@cristinavekos5808 if nano tunnels made inside the magnetrons metal structure then by increasing surface area more electron are coming out in the same voltage like filaments produced photons so more surface produced more electron and more cheap technology we have for cooking
it's can produce handpowered induction also so we warming up the food whenever their are no any electricity
this technology can used on mars where we have to use hand power to regulated the mind power since muscle memory are better than brain power, the ultimate animal instincts of humans
I would like to see a measurement across the high voltage capacitor, after the discharge. Turn off the high voltage transformer, hit the button, then measure the high voltage capacitor, to see what the residual voltage is, after the Thyratron cuts off. The small capacitor stores 21.4 joules of energy at 3500 volts. Not much. I wonder if an inductor could replace the 100 Ohm, 25 watt resistor, to pass a greater percentage of the stored energy into the load. even if the Thyristor exceeds 50 amps, it won't happen long enough to cause any spot heating, or excessive temperature rise on the cathode. The hope is, that the inductor will saturate, allowing a high current to flow, after the arc has established, to keep from pitting the cathode, or the anode. My application for such a thyratron, would be to re-gauss ALNICO magnets. Contacts don't tend to hold up really well to repeated capacitive discharges.
Vincent Robinette - inductor, I think so. Saturating, I think it would pit, I think an arc can condensing into hotspots, being exactly why the current rating is 50a.
Mercury ignitron sounds better to me.
@@jimswenson9991 The only reason I think you can get away with slightly higher, is because of the extremely short duration from the 20 or so joules of energy stored in that little capacitor. I don't think you could do that repeatedly. You need to stay within it's ratings, if it's driven by, or made into an oscillator.
This is the only Thyratron I have so I wanted to be a bit conservative here... The 50A maximum current rating is for pulsed application so I am not sure how much more you could pass without damaging the tube even if it's just a brief pulse. But I could definitely reduce the resistor connected in series as as of now the peak current is no where near 50A.
@@KerryWongBlog I don't blame you. That's probably a very rare tube, and would be difficult, and probably very expensive to replace. That said, it's rather useless, if you don't use it.
So what it is it used for?
It's to discharge capacitors into microwave magnetrons, for radar. It produces a short duration high power pulse of microwave radiation, so they can measure how long it takes to be reflected from the target back to the receiver antenna. They can then determine how far away the target is. The very first microwave ovens, called "radar range" used these exact magnetrons, similar to what are used today.
@@vincentrobinette1507 sooo it discharges energy into the atmosphere? Mini blast wave?
@@lostspace5811 That's exactly right. It sends a focused beam of microwaves into the atmosphere, and looks for a reflected signal from incoming craft. It's a short duration high amplitude pulse. While harmless to humans and birds, Pilots of aircraft know when they've been pinged, because it makes a distinct "Click" in their headsets for their two-way radios.
@@vincentrobinette1507 i know pilots might blame that click in their headsets on magnitron, but it is actually obama's fault.
I thought that I would be buried only once.
Then along came university physics. Buried in schematics and equations.
Extremely dangerous. But I think that I would be 'somewhat' more nervous about ten amperes than one thousand volts.
Super fascinating vid, thanks so much.
Dangerous setup. Secure everything for a start. Put that microswitch in a plastic box. Mount the tube in a socket and mount it vertical. Use crimps where you can.
This is like a triode of gas. Isn't it?
MasterMindmars - true, and the gas is hydrogen.
Is it putting of x-rays? Otherwise I'm good.
This can be used to get rid of mosquitoes.
My gosh, this is cool, but don't do this at home. This circuit has enough current delivery capacity to kill you outright if you're careless or unlucky !!!
He knows what he is doing
No actual resistors were harmed during the making of this experiment
Is that you Bawwy Kwipke?
Ну очень интересная установка по выжиганию сопротивлений.
I tought I will see the glow with and without hydrogen, and with various level of voltage on hydrogen generator. It was dissappointing.
Time was when these were restricted under "dual use" regulations, because of their possible use in nuclear weapon firing circuits. Now you can by them on Ebay. Duh!
It's DOH!!! Not Duh!
The Simpsons:Many D'ohs of Homer
ua-cam.com/video/cnaeIAEp2pU/v-deo.html
@@motorbikemadness5773 - Sorry, but you are WRONG. AS HE USED "DUH", IT WAS CORRECT. Why Duh instead of Doh, Duh is used as if saying, for his reply, Duh, so much security and now they sold on the open market. Doh, would be used if no one knew they could be bought on eBay as if to say, "DOH, purchased on ebay.....really???", as if he was totally surprised!! Now let me try a stab at it, "DUH, go back to school and learn some English, ya' bozo!!!"
@@akmguy5103 I was being funny dumbass! Go to the store and buy some humor!!!
Want to be careful with vaccum tubes and voltages above 1000v
U start producing radiation at high voltages and those old times it wasn't well known
I want more of this kinda creative stuff. I like the reviews but I feel like we're getting 5% of your knowledge.
Nice video but... get to the point, Edith.
These blow the doors off those poser helium ones.
Large black band = infinite ohms ....
What about x-rays?
Awsome fat isolators in there 😍
3.5kV is not high enough of voltage to generate x-ray. You'd need roughly 15kV or more in order to do that.
Can you use that tube in a ampler circuit ?
No, it's a switching device (it's either on or off).
But you didn't test to see if you can use the linear region if it does exist Vacuum tubes are both switches and amps. That tube you tested has the same layout as a regular vacuum tubes if you don't use the Hydrogen element
@@johnsenchakinternetsecurit8935 They don't have a linear region, they work by a controlled avalanche breakdown process.
They are similar to a SCR, so once it's triggered it will stay on, until the voltage on the anode drops, or becomes negative in respect to the cathode. So ,no, I do not think you could use it as an amplifier.
@@johnsenchakinternetsecurit8935 I see are new to RADAR tubes
¡now you can build your own atomic bomb!. it's interesting you can buy soviet thyratron when US ones are highly restricted national security items
Why are they restricted?
What's that white van doing outside your house? It's been there all day!
Security first? Well you haved killed a small 100Ω resitor with a puls. This means, the Device comes in an undefined state. Asume the it opens contanct and there is some more chance in your Capacitor. After short discharging the device fast, some capacitors regain charce from ε-effects. There is no other discharge Path and you Touch the Device with your Fingers ....
YOU CAN DIE QUITE FAST ... ONE STUDI COLLEGE DIES WITH HIGH VOLTAGE RESUDUAL CHARGE FROM CAPACITORS!
Yes, working on any high voltage circuit is potentially dangerous. The capacitor has bleed resistors on them, but it would only work when the power is removed and in this case, the capacitor is always recharged after discharging.
Hello ?