Busa 'Slipper clutch' Explained
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- Опубліковано 5 жов 2024
- Explained in more detail...
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Not another Del vid...ffs its very ego driven this channel..im unsubscribing.. there's far better engineering/motorcycle related stuff out there thats creative/interesting/positive its just a hard slog watching this channel
Fu,ck off then
Ben posted a comment "no put a firearm to your head" but youtube removed it because 'feelings'
And yet you’re normally asking for advice from this channel due to ‘too many UA-cam experts’ with poor advice. Your words.
@@dirtygarageguy I wondered where it had gone. UA-cam police with a total lack of the understanding of English language.
This channel is pure gold, i'm here because i might learn something ( if i get my brain wrapped around it ) and i love the humor. Keep up the good work Matt.
Your CAD skills are top notch.
Always nice to have cad on screen and someone who nows wtf they are talking about explaining how a mechanical system actually works. Top notch stuff matt.
Very good explanation... Ive said before... I dont have a motorcycle and have never even driven one.. I still love watching your videos... Mechanical contrivance crosses over to many applications.
So basically put guys:
Hard on the throttle, pressure plate pushing hard down on the clutch pack.
Shut the throttle :
The rear wheel wants to rotate faster than the engine. The little dogs do their thing, and the pressure plate does not have the same amount of force on the clutch pack allowing it to slip.
Hope that makes sense, and I'll see ya in a bit...
My thoughts on it was that using the ramps to 'lockup' the clutch meant softer spring could be used. This would make for a lighter clutch but it is capable of transmitting more power. The old way of getting more power through a clutch was to put heavier springs in for more clamping force on the plates at the expense of a heavy clutch.
I actually didn’t know how a slipper clutch worked. Had them for a few years on bikes. Haven’t had to open a clutch up. Thanks!
Great stuff once again. What is interesting to me with this system is that when the engine is off the clutch is left in 'slipper mode'. The engine needs to be generating torque to alter the geometry so that the plates are squeezed together and stop slipping.
Fantastic visual aid for explaining how this mechanism works.
Always wondered how they worked, very clever, on a side note lambrettas used to have a fixed single piston calliper and a floating disc
I had a 1978 Yamaha XS250 many years ago with a slipper clutch. It slipped like nothing else. Don’t know why people are claiming that slipper clutches are new! ;)
And I thought my 79 Xs was the first to have a slipper clutch 🤣🤣🤣
synthetic oil in 70's bike, instant slipper clutch.
@@tuoppi42 True, but this is before the time of synthetic oil, in the era of clutches that were unimaginably abused by 16 year olds!
@@damienhornby425 LOL
Ahhh that's what I didn't pick up on from the first video. I didn't understand that the red piece was connected to the pressure plate. I was imagining the slipper mechanism was somehow lifting the clutch boss to compress the pack. It wasn't making sense how that could possibly work 🤣 Thanks for re-explaining. That 3D drawing is great 👍
Thank you for this channel, I watch it because I'm interested in mechanical engineering and also in improving my english speaking skill. Honestly I'm not too sure of the effectiveness about the latter
Thanks, got it. I was looking at it back to front last time.
Oh, now I get it... in your first video i was confused as to why was the ramp on the side that is engaged when the engine is driving the cluch, this looks like a smarter design than the other?... lighter spring, lower force required to desingage the clutch, and the force on the clutch plates increases with engine output torque
a positive side effect of this is you need just a small amount of handforce to actuate the cluth under normal driving conditions.
According to your later video, it's actually the blue part in your model that is fixed to the input shaft and is driving anti-clockwise against the FLAT surface of the pink part, NOT the 'ramp'.
Just watched the Del video and there's some odd stuff going on there.
He undoes the nut and says "That was tight", as it should because it would have been torqued.
On reinstalling it he doesn't torque it or thread lock it which most manuals suggest.
He then bends fuck out of the nut with a punch.
Then coats every case bolt with copper grease.
Brilliant, simple kills!
Videos without a music bla bla intro; the videos which begin quickly with the reason we hit play are best.
See, now you’ve explained this and more in depth than I could of ever imagined, I understand it a lot more. I’ve been told, the slipper clutch helps prevent the engine from locking the wheel up on down shifts during high speeds. Really just to help with control, say if you’re doing 100 odd and a badger jumps out. Haha.
I will watch these videos again, great info. I’m glad someone has finally shushed those people welding them up in the wrong position. I always feel that if it was designed to work with the product, then it should stay that way. I’m sure Suzuki spent a few mill designing such technology, so someone who just bought a welder for £50 on eBay isn’t going to know more.
Hope that makes sense? If not, I’ll watch on! 😝
In the next video we're gonna talk about why slipper clutches are even needed
@@dirtygarageguy looking forward to it! I don’t think my bike has one, but there are people in the forum I’m a member of (zx-9r.net) modify their bikes to use them. A homemade slipper clutch, if you search on there? I’ve had a bike wheel lock up once, but I changed down by accident... I don’t see why people would go down the gears at 8,000rpm. But, then again I’m no racer or wheelie monster.
OK, I got It perfectly at the last video. Now I'm struggling with the engine rotation. You said it turns ccw, ... so surely that would engage the flat surface whith the power cracked open, and the ramp on deceleration? Maybe I should rewatch.. 😩
Scratch that. I got it.
Splendid, keep up the good work Matt.
Hi Matt, using longer springs can be smart because using a longer spring with a lower spring rate leads to a lower/lesserder? rise in needed pulling force on your clutch handle. In other words: a higher clamping force on the clutch plates can be achieved with the same maximum needed force to pull the lever all the way in. >Nm=>fun (if those dragqueenracers are able to get more torque out of that Suzi) (excuse my Dutch-English)
Clamping load is clamping load. Long or short that load is required regardless of spring dimensions.
A further pretensioned longer spring with a lower k results in the same clamping force, I know that's the beauty. But the positive difference is that force increase will be lower when disconnecting the clutch due to the lower spring rate? (k=veerconstante in dutch). Think of a (almost) constant force spring or a diaphram? clutch (my Kreidler had one). Reducing the disadvantage of the rising force when pulling in the clutch lever further, enables you to increase clamping force without raising maximum needed force to fully pull the clutch lever. Btw thanks for reacting, I didn't expect that.
very interesting!!! Thanks for this!
So let me get this right.. Its not a slipper clutch its similar to the GSX1400 lock up clutch where when the bike is being driven the ramps actually force the clutch to grip even more to stop slipping. The springs basically become all but redundant as the ramp does the work. This allows for softer springs to be used so the lever action is not too stiff but the ramps will put more force into the clutch pack the harder you ride. So once you decelerate the clutch is only relying on the more forgiving clutch springs. Forgive me if I am wrong. The slipper clutch would actually release the clutch totally with the ramp going the opposite way so you can go down 2,3 or 4 gears and dump the clutch and engine RPM should not rise..
The GSX1400 is not the fastest bike in the world but those who were stupid enough to try to drag race one would find under a racing start that the lever would put enough force into the mechanism that the lever would actually force your hand open as the clutch would grab hard at launch. The other issue would be if you tried to pull the clutch while the engine was under load the rider may not be able to pull the clutch easily or at all. I know the Turbo bike I built had the lock up mechanism welded up so the bike was on the spring pressure alone and I destroyed a clutch doing full power runs at Bruntingthorpe as the locking mechanism would have stopped the slip that 320bhp in a clutch designed for about 125bhp had to endure. Going back to an unmodified clutch stopped the clutch eating nature of the turbo from killing clutches but you had to pull away with more care as the lever did try to force you to let the clutch out and it was so snatchy pulling away it was horrid..
Top notch explanation yet again
This is an excellent explanation
I couldn't have put it better myself 👍
Thanks Matt, it makes perfect sense 👍
In fusion 360 they have contact sets that would have allowed the ring to react the way it should
They do in solidworks, I just couldn't be bothered.
Hahaha, yet can’t do a spring very simply in fusion
cool! so ..... just to be clear, that moving part only comes into play under engine breaking etc and has no effect when pulling away? or did i miss something?
cheers.
This arrangement is used in KTM road bikes, and it's described as a clutch booster. Their implementation is used to increase clamping load on drive from the engine, meaning they can use lower rated clutch springs, and therefore reduces the effort required at the clutch lever to disengage the clutch. There is no 'slipper' action with their choice of springs, they use engine mapping to reduce back torque. For a real mechanical slipper action clutch there are better designs than solid ramps.
Exactly!
No its not. What the KYM has is the F.C.C clutch, which is also used in the Z900. I did a couple of videos about that.
And there is a slipper action...
@@dirtygarageguy whats the difference? The position of the part on the ramp by default ?
The FCC clutch uses a by-directional ramp that is part of the pressure plate. The springs are there to bias the force towards engagement. The busa clutch is not like that.
Nicely explained 👍
What an explanation, love seeing a proper breakdown of components and their purposes with such a clear and detailed description of how and why. Top notch 👍 Good lad Matt.
Now where's my welder! 🤣✊💦 jks.
Would it be worth doing 1 more part to this where you describe in detail the potential effects of welding this slipper mechanism up or even doing the old Del washer trick?
Remember my 95 CBR900R back end stepping out going down mountains back in the day, shit in the pants time:)
I’m going to have to watch this again. I can’t believe that you would have got it wrong, .....but, wouldn’t it be the other way around?
Surely the sloped faces engage when back torque is applied e.g. when downshifting? The sloped faces then engage and push upwards, this eases pressure on the clutch pack, giving the desired result of clutch slip?
Or this is what you’re saying and I’ve just not watched it properly. May be I just need to stop watching late night TV and sleep more!
No they don't. You're getting it all wrong.
@@dirtygarageguy will watch it again with coffee in the morning!
Was reading through the comments on dboy's video:
"Why not replace it with a new slipper clutch?"
DB: "It wasn't a good design in the first place" LOL I can't imagine Suzuki will be headhunting him for expertise any time soon.
It looks like a great design, after seeing it all put together in CAD. The harder you drive, the harder the clutch clamps. That's genius.
It's also a design used on all busas' The SV, TL, Ktm and the vstrom...
It's really annoying seeing there are so many of these "mods" everywhere and no one seems to have questioned it. WTF.
If you can't get it welded, solid, you can buy a solid version machined??? That's insane.
Did a little googling, had some giggles at people having problems after installing Brock's mod but whatever. There was one description of the mod that made sense, "under hard acceleration the clutch can prematurely lock up".
Considering how the mechanism works, I can see how there may be some benefit to it on a drag racing bike, they don't need to worry so much about downshifts.
Outside of drag racing it looks completely pointless and possibly detrimental.
Excellent, thank you.
So am I right in say that it's better to look at this in reverse: it's not so much a "slipper" clutch as a "grabber" clutch as engine > road speed = clamping force applied. Makes a lot of sense why drag bikes wouldn't like it as they'd rather have power applied immediately and directly. But for normal road use this slightly progressive system sounds great as you avoid dumping instant power to the back wheel which I would imagine puts less stress on components.
tl;dr safety feature for numpties 👍
No lol
@@dirtygarageguy Dammit, I'll have to watch the video again!
So it’s basically a force multiplier on acceleration and normal force when you are engine braking? Like it’s just the pressure of the springs when braking and when you’re acceleration it sucks the clutch pack down to help it clamp down harder.
Not really. Future version are, but this is generally 2 states.
On the last video I made a comment saying that the ramp adds additional pressure to the pressure plate for the purpose of a better preforming clutch under acceleration and still having the ability to slip a little while being driven by the rear wheel. Why did you say I was wrong?
Because that's not their intended purpose. There is a slight bit of additional force, but this is 'extra' motion to allow for wear. As the friction plates wear the ramp system has to allow for this. I have the actual mechanism in my hands and I'm doing a video about it soon. You can see this 'extra' travel to accommodate the wear.
Other clutches - like the z900 clutch does do this, and that's why it's called a slipper/assist clutch. The TL, SV, some GSXRs and Busa (which is obviously as GSX-R) and some other bikes like some KTMs and the Vstrom all have this clutch. They all have he 'standard' 5 or 6 springs which apply about 300N of force. Clutches which do what you suggest have less springs because they use the ramp action to apply the force.
@@dirtygarageguy thanks mate I think I was getting confused with other clutches.
So in a nutshell .... when yer on the gas the ramps engage which compresses the springs and forces the clutch pack together tight ..... when you're off the gas the ramps disengage allowing the springs to decompress which loosens the clutch pack allowing it to slip 😉 ... makes perfect sense.
Interesting Matt, Cheers for the video bud :-)
Again superb video. But I will stand by the mod if you dont want or need a slipper clutch. The take off on my Busa is miles smoother and my acceleratin is fractionaly better. I know a slipper clutch makes for a safer ride but Im happy to accept not having tthat advantage.
I will say unlike Del I at no point imagined that the unit worked the way Del explained, and yes its a bloody clever unit if it works well. but sadly the busa clutch as stock is a let down.
Keep up the brilliant videos, always good to watch.
a junk article popped up on my facebook today about overreving a gr yaris by money-shifting it.
it has the tagline 'Even though modern engine technology has come so far, there's no way to prevent a mechanical overrev. A simple, honest mistake can still have catastrophic consequences.'
is a slipper system like in this video not a viable solution to stop overrev in cars too? i've not heard of it being done, so what are the limitations or tradeoffs that might explain that
Matt, you said it "balance of forces".I would hate to toy with different springs in this scenario as
the system requires them to accomodate slip when downshifting.It does look more robust than
your z900 as it looks like steel against aluminum on the busa and aluminum against aluminum
on the z.Which brings up a question.How do you keep these slippers lubricated when centrifugal
forces are throwing oil away.? Pressure fed oil or just Flinging..?..Well done..Cheers.!
It's steel on steel for the busa, and ally on ally for the z9.
Great as usual!
Slippery as boris Johnson be questioned about earls court.
Matt, where can I get the cad model? The link isn’t working…
I'm sorting it out
Im geting better understanding of it now.
So why do these guys who drag race sell that kid del fitted?
Thanks
That will come next
Your video are amazing just one question is it worth fitting say a sigma slipper clutch to a Zx9r track bike and what about friction plates and why do race teams Change the track to track ie thickness and order I too read shit or maybe truth I just can’t get my head round it please help
yep got it
So everytime you use engine breaking, the clutch is slipping just a little? Or is at the point to start slipping, if, the force is enough to move the pressure plate more?
That'll be in the next video
Great. Ild like to know how they come up with, at what point it needs to slip,to prevent excessive engine breaking(locking back wheel,etc) and how they figure out how to maintain that.
Shed life - DELeted
Kick ass video 👌🏻
Do you mean the clutch can work from the back as well as the front ? that's how I would explain it, your welcome.
That depends on what you prefer, backstroke or breaststroke
@@sinisterhipp0 🤣
FFS...you don't really understand this type of clutch therefore you are confusing people so please go back to del's vid which perfectly explains that "... the thingy slides against the wotsit and makes it super slippy..." I mean...wot more do u need to know FFS???
But what about when it gets confused?
Matt your DELeted video is age restricted. Has Delboy spoken to the higher ups?
No lol but I don't understand why...
Eeeh i thought I understood. Is that shaft the input or output shaft ? I have to rewatch the first vid again
The input shaft
@@dirtygarageguy now i got it and The clutch closes further when you give power.
Hey Matt!
i wanted to watch your newsest Video "DELeting Comments" but UA-cam wants me to certify my Age...trough a foto of my Personal ID Card! How insane is this?
And this happens just as i wanted to ask a few minutes ago (i finished yoir other video) if you will upload your "comtroversal" (God i hate this word!) to less censored sites?
Thank you
(when i made this account my age was already over 18, so its not because of underage; also happens on other videos that are normal in my view, but too extreme for YT)
Looking forward to seing the apology video!
What?
We get how it works from the first video. We want to know what the problem was whit Dels clutch.
Del has it
Oh and nothing, it's just more product placement.
Just found this, I now sort of get it. So what is this mod that welds the two together. What is the advantage if that?
There isnt
Now if I only would find slipper/gripper clutch manufacturer who would make one for my soon 22 year old Honda and would refuse to take any money for it.
I heard Hayabusa clutch break down easily. Is it because the design of the slipper clutch not good?
My motorcycle friend is waiting for SUZUKI to recall and fix it.
So you cant push the clutch while on power ?? I dont know why youd do this but
Yes, the clutch still operates normally via the lever. The slipper mechanism is automatically operated by reverse forces coming from the rear wheel. While under power the clutch pack is compressed like normal and you can use the clutch normally. Slipping it, flicking it or dumping it. The slipper mechanism won't change that.
@@JonathanVee thx, but I meant pushing the clutch while accelerating
What do you mean by push???
@@dirtygarageguy I mean press the clutch lever
Why would you wanna do that?
Just add copper grease and your slipper clutch and it will be slipperer.
I still dont like calling max ramping, the normal position.
Would the clutch springs not keep the ramp at lowest point when only cruising along at 40 miles/hour? and only start ramping when the bike make more power then the springs can hold in place?
It would constantly ride around on the ramp depending on engine power and not be on/off.
With the clutch engaged without this mechanism this would be the default position. You cannot like it as much as you want, what difference would/does it make?
Music much more tolerable. 👌
Got it just fine from the first video... watched the entire second one anyways. Probably cause I'm "one of them twats".
Why are Google asking me to verify my age when I try and watch your DELeting comments video?
Age restricted, don't know why yet
Is that a super slippy clutch?
I understand The first video but its to long and all over the place.
You could Do it with a 3min video.
Thanks anyway
Cheers
All over the place? And you can't do it with a 3 minute video. Oh wait, you're one of them twats
@@dirtygarageguy haha no iam not Ive been here sinze 15.000 subs.
I even donated for The toolbox christmas give away
I meant keep it simple
Pass me my slippers!
👌👍🏻👍🏻
Slipper Clutch, no, Harley Compensator, yes.
The fucking music 😱aaaaaaah
even i understood that and i am a fuckin Brummie 😜👍
gone fishing .........
Slipper clutch takes less effort from your hand to disengage the clutch .. Under hard deceleration from engine braking into a corner the clutch can slipp so your rear wheel does not lock up.. Have not watched your videos for a while ..
But you need to explain why a manufactuerer would go to great costs to design a more complicted clutch ..
A famous Motorcyle Drag racer named Brock explains why slipper clutches don't work in Drag bikes..
Lol brock... enough said.
I wonder if Dellballs watches these videos, and if he does, does he actually learn anything, or is he even capable of understanding?
Lost after 'welcome back to the shop' I'd reckon...
So what I really wanna know is why the "stupid, fast" guys got the idea of eliminating the slipper clutch in the first place...
And thats in the next video...
if you dont understand lets hope you dont work in engineering and dont give up your day job.
You mean keep driving your bus and not start a yt channel?
So it makes sence compleately ,NOW why the fuck the hipe with all the after market to disable the thing???? its just like taking off all your rubber pads in your rear hubs and silent blocks of your engine mounts and replace them with soft/hard!!!! plastic/ steel .