Will powered speakers ever be equal to passives?
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- Опубліковано 14 жов 2024
- Speaker designers would love to place perfectly matched power amplifiers and active crossovers in their designs yet there's a problem with that, one that has always held them back. Have a question you want to ask Paul? www.psaudio.com...
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The KEF LS50W is a great example of the speaker of the future. Having a separate amplifier dedicated to each driver and using DSP for the crossover is a far superior topology to the traditional speaker with a passive crossover and external amplifier. In the past, almost no one did this because it was too expensive (though the Infinity Servo Statik 1 is an early example). Today with class D amplification and inexpensive DSP , this technology is within reach. There are lots of advantages, including tailoring the crossover to the room the speakers are installed in. I can hardly wait for the revolution to occur.
I already do build only Active :) Only when there is no budget for more amps i build passive.
@@kaedeschulz5422 egg, genelec and Neumann do it better.
Active crossovers are just better than passives.
That doesn't mean DIY active speakers don't exist for people chasing after that perfect 3way midfield, because studio midfields are already in the 5 figure range.
All of my studio monitors are this design.
@@taiefmiah How can you know if they make better speaker's than i do? Stuff i could buy of the shelf is to expensive or it isn't what i need.
And as i said i only build passive when the person does not have the money for multiple amps.
@@kaedeschulz5422 I was meant to tag the original comment, not yours.
Thank you, Paul! This is, by far, the most insightful, no BS monologue you've ever done! I'm an audio engineer who has also been in home audio for almost 50 years. I'm so tired of all the crap from subjectivist audio people who think they have "golden ears" and don't care or no nothing about accurate reproduction of music. Besides yourself, I always appreciated the thinking and engineering of the late Sigfried Linkwitz. He knew accurate sound and knew the correct way to arrive at it. While I appreciate what it sounds like and that there are certainly people who can listen and hear genuine weaknesses and strengths in a system (John Eargle comes to mind) many are just introducing their own biases and/or personal preferences into the assessment. Why is there never ABX testing in high end audio salons? Where are the measurments for the way overpriced speakers that are supposed to be the best? If you can charge thousands for a speaker then you can provide honest, accurate, correctly made measurements of your products do I person has a starting point on which to judge that model compared to others. THEN you can listen and compare.
With that in mind, biamping, triamping, et. al. with specific eq as determined by measurement and listening is always a superior way to design/build a speaker. It doesn't matter whether the signal processing is done in analog or DSP; although there are many more choices when using DSP it's the best way to go for sure.
You hinted at one of the biggest impediments to powered speakers: the tweakaphiles can't change the power amp(s) every week because of some imaginary compromise in the reproduction that didn't seem to exist when they originally bought the amp(s) a couple of months ago but, does now (Audiogon anyone?).
It's been written that high end audio is on the wane. Only us old guys are still interested in really good sound reproduction. I contend that young people see through all the subjectivist nonsense and don't wish to burn their limited money on over-priced, state-of-the-art-of-the-week equipment.
Keep up the good work and honesty.
Good points. Many companies can't cater most of theirs stuff to middle and upperclass Audiophiles and survive. Options! People love options. Active setups provide options with a lot of fuss(receiver + amp + speakers). Many people are simply ordering stuff online, physically unseen, instead of going to stores and hearing this stuff on their own. Audio setups aren't being pushed as much with TV anymore. A active soundbar and sub sits near every TV at Best buy basically and many of the sound rooms have been removed. I couldn't even listen to Klipsch RP line speakers at this one best buy last week bc their tiny setup didnt have them, even at a BB with a Magnolia room. Their tiny setup was also not functioning properly bc the display controller had issues and only Klipsch techs can fix it. Ridiculous. With that said, it's getting harder and harder to go out and hear the options that exist before you buy so with that, trusting the manufacturer to do it right with an active setup is likely trending up.
@@6spdkeg Young person here, like both your viewpoints :D
I mean I watch this channel, so I am not the average person, but yea, most people just buyconsumer grade garbage which is overpriced.
Also we are poor as fck, so active speakers are a pretty good way to get some quality in there.
I do feel this not being able to try out music setups these days, I just choose a brand that I like and decided to go for their near-field monitors, cause I am used to their sound. If that makes any sense.
Also since I just started this whole journey, I can do less wrong by doing this form of setup over going the passive way, but money is the biggest motivator. I think we would all love to tweak our setup and see what works best, but that's really hard to do unless you know people in this hobby that are willing to learn you or allow you to play around and test things. What also seemed to amaze me though is that older people are buying the most dope systems while they can't even hear all the frequencies that they offer. I am just jealous ;(
I'm an old guy with some experience in selling good audio equipment. Many times I've sold passive speakers where the buyer came back and said they didn't sound the same at home. I believe powered speakers eliminate at least half the reasons that could happen. I think you are doing a vast portion of the market a big favor by eliminating the poor amp/setup in a passive system with good powered speakers. There are a lot of good ones to choose from.
Bruno Putzey's Kii Audio Three active speaker is getting raving reviews all over the net and in printed press and is lauded for its constant (cardioid)
directivity down from 54 Hz to 1 Khz. These speakers really do solve a lot of room problems in the bass freqs
Probably still better to get dirac
Paul, lots of manufacturers are doing fantastic, powered home speakers, ATC, PMC, Dynaudio and KEF to name but a few. More and more are jumping on the bandwagon. Recently heard some Kii three fully active speakers and was blown away.
Alex Tomlins ... the Kii does sound good. With all sorts of parameters to tweak.
As other people said already, studio monitors had almost completed the journey to go to active speakers. It’s the consumer market which doesn’t move. I don’t think it’s because of quality issue, maybe vendors are afraid to lose ways to fool customers by selling them this monster speaker cable, that gold plated binding posts, bi-wire junks, etc. Let alone this tube amp, that class A heat generator.
Exactly. And those people are the ones producing the music FOR the consumer market. I've got two pairs of Equator D5's. Tiny 5" coaxial actives using DSP. Now I would not call them high end by any means. (I picked up mine for about 125 each and that included a padded carry bag with shoulder strap...you can easily take a pair with you anywhere...just add an 8 dollar patch cable and your mp3 player!) BUT the mid-range clarity and imaging are astounding... absolutely crushing speakers costing three times more. And yes they do sound best in the near filed but that's what they were designed for. If Ted Keffalo can build a speaker that good for so little, imagine what can be done for ten times that. I've been a semi-pro musician for over 25 years so I know more about music and music gear than the average bear. So if searching for the best amp to go with your speakers is your hobby, more power to you. But the rest of us just want great sound without hassle or a five figure price tag.
Why do I care about your shoulder strap padded carry bag mp3 player that you can easily take with you anywhere?
Well Mark, only you can answer that. But I thank you for caring. The world needs more caring.
Even Paul has already answered this with the speakers with an accelerometer. Industry has very much transitioned to powered speakers with servo feedback on at least the woofers. The perfect speaker cable is one that doesn't exist. The best speaker cable is the shortest speaker cable.
In regards to interconnects, shielded twisted pair terminated into it's nominal impedance (of the wire) is how industry sends audio long distances while maintaining fidelity. Low Z microphones is the industry norm for pro audio.
Even 100 Meg internet data is transported on 110 ohm unshielded cable up to 100 meters with full bandwidth.
Audiophiles fight over cable standards that are NOT driven or terminated anywhere close to the cable nominal impedance and wonder why long interconnects have so many problems. It's the obsolete technology remaining in use for backwards compatibility.
Pro audio has flown past this years ago.
The biggest differences between pro audio and audiphiles is the use of the equipment. One has to sound exceptional and be a piece of eye candy furniture. The other has to live through travel and roadies and durability. In the science of getting a high bandwidth signal from stage to console to amps and speakers has been achieved years ago by the pros. An RCA cable and high fidelity does not compute, no matter who builds the cable.
Exactly, the shortest runs of any cable, all balanced connections between line level (or lower) conntections to reject any possible noise. A lot about consumer products (and sometimes proffesional products) is the market and the ability to sell. Bullshit cables that don't provide any benefit but seem like they should because they are spec'd 'higher' make money.
Powered speakers can be great but as an older audiophile I have seen countless powered subs and speakers have their amps fail and need to be replaced and sometimes the company is no longer in business. I used to make a living as a young man replacing plate amps for people who had theirs burn out!
It all depends. I work as a mastering engineer as my main job, I also produce. The reason nearfield monitors are mostly active is not necessarily driven by quality. It`s also convenience. The main market for studio gear has moved toward small home project studios..... The amateur/prosumer market, as technology has become cheaper and more powerful in terms of capability (computers and software basically) has democratised production. Selling an all in one box to these people is easier than the quagmire of amps and speakers. I`ve used both extensively, have used actives as nearfields for years, but a few years ago, after building a new mastering studio and getting new mastering speakers, where the trend is towards passives and separate amps......after making my choices I got a big step up in audio clarity... I wanted this in my production room too. I found the bottleneck for myself was the quality of the amps inside a lot of nearfields were just average at best (squeezed in to small boxes, where the best amplification is not the only driving force in design), unless you spent a ridiculous amount. The options, due to the market changing, didn`t leave me with many passive nearfield options. I now have nice passives driven by a nice amp in the production room, and my translation from production room nearfieds to mastering room mains is very very good, with little need for adjustment to material when moving from one room to another.
So which is better?
Well to my eyes (ears), which is better depends entirely on the individual unit design. Passives are not necessarily better, actives are not necessarily better (some Pro-studio nearfields are really not good at all, just because they are marketed as pro audio, don`t be under the illusion that they give pro results, there is a lot of snake oil in the pro audio realm now, as the market competition has focused on prosumer markets and price is more of an issue). Good speakers are good speakers. Good actives are good actives, good amps are good amps. And conversely, bad speakers are bad, bad actives are bad etc etc........
What do you think of the Adam Audio S2V nearfield studio monitors?
@@SquareBrick i never liked the Adams nearfields. Their mains are great though. For me the pairing of the ribbon tweeters with the 7inch driver trying to cover 3k all the way down...welll.....Ribbons are great for high end clarity but they aren't so good in the mids, and expecting a 7 inch driver to cover the rest of the range with accuracy....hmm. the smaller Adams with the 5 inch drivers hold together great, but obviously don't go low. For my own preference there are a host of active nearfields at the same price point as the Adams that I prefer, and that to me have better clarity in the mid range (where our ears naturally focus due to the human vocal range). I mean it's all a matter of degrees, there are worse nearfield monitors out there for sure.
There is at least one good thing about most active speakers they are mostly bi-amped. With a loose crossover or DSP before it that can correct for phase.
I listened to some Meridian DSP 8000's and was completely blown away by how good they sounded. But to each their own. :)
Just put a good amp and good drivers in the same box.and you are done. Studio monitors are active speakers and they sound great.
endrizo Exactly. You don't get more high end than the active monitors that most modern recordings are mixed on. Everything else has a signature that colours the original. You can't make it better than the original or hear what the production team heard originally. So spending hundreds of thousands on equipment makes no sense what so ever.
Active monitors are hardly high end. They perform a job, but true high end is in a totally different league.
Not quite- I have the best studio monitor ever made to my knowledge. It is really good , but not as good as high end separates or Electrostats.
I wouldnt say ill informed. I have heard a LOT of active loudspeakers. Some are better than others, but I have never heard one with performance anywhere near true hi end. Could it be done? Sure. But it hasnt happened yet. PS Audios new line, with amps built in, may change that, but until then....
@@jeremywhittler8591 What is the best studio monitor ever made & why?
I have Linn speakers which started out as passive but I converted to active operation with the addition of extra amplification and external active filters, the improvement was greater than the sum of parts, massive step up.
I have some Meridian kit too which I acquired in a job lot of kit. Theirs speakers where a bit meh... the electronics were better, but they’re a bit hairshirt, they only really work as part of an all Meridian setup. I might use it in a home theatre setup if I can be bothered.
Yeah that Linn aktiv stuff was great, was just talking to a buddy last night where we used to work in a Linn dealership and were commenting how much better the aktivs were.
For my desktop system, I’ve added an audiophile fuse, pure silver power and speaker cables, spring style feet, adhere small obsidian pyramids for grounding my negative speaker posts, add aquarium gravel inside my speaker stands, and topped with large crystal geodes for adequate added weight.
That’s my way of creating my mid-fi active speaker to sound hifi.
ATC once did a demo of their passive and active versions of SMC40. Active had significantly more 3D imaging and forward sound. Passives were more laid back but maintained a large soundstage. Same ATC in-house amplifier components more or less for both systems. And the passives had excellent crossovers. Nevertheless the advantages of active speakers were very obvious. ATC rep told me that 70-80% preferred active speakers (myself included). ATC continues manufacturing their iconic SMC50’s in both passive and active versions. In fact, you can upgrade your passives to actives. Also, the active components are all on a single plate, so if the amp craps out, you can just unscrew it and send it to the factory for servicing.
I am very satisfied with my Backes&Mueller BM Line 15 all active speakers. Backes&Mueller has been building active speakers since 40 years. Timing, frequency response and resolution are perfect. Man, that bass power is phenomenal. And there are no issues with phase shifting or mismatch with amps or cables.
Or just build both a speaker and its complementary amp separately.
Sell those both as individual items as well as set.
That way, the company can make the perfect match while preserving the consumers' freedom to tinker and geek around.
Excellent idea and it allows for many more choices of amplifier technology as it doesn't have to be impervious to heat and vibration and doesn't need to produce minimum of heat itself.
I’m surprised by the comment about Meridian. Their SE line of speakers is phenomenal. The best speakers I’ve ever heard, hands down.
My first powered speaker was a Audio Engine A2+. I have since then gotten a QMS Qp4, which has 2 amps per speaker with an AMT ribbon tweeter. This sold me on concept and can understand clearly that well enginered powered speaker can sound fantastic. They have a floorstander which has 3 amps per speaker (low, mid, high).
Sure! They are already :D
You can still eq them with a separate eq infront of them.
So i do not see a problem there.
I honestly don't even get the question... all he says he can do with an active speaker he can also do it with a passive speaker...
You can build a stereo amp with 2 mono amps, can't you?
I use active studio speakers :)
Dynaudio and Audioengine both make very highly-rated powered audiophile speakers that aren't studio monitors.
And they sound great, I have a pair of xeo 4
Whether speakers are marketed as studio monitors or not is irrelevant in terms of sound quality of course. For example many European audiophiles
have been using fully active ME Geithain speakers from that company's "studio monitoring range" in their homes for decades .
I have bought the Dynaudio Xeo 10 active speakers and they are sensational! Blew everything in the same price range, active aswell as passive.
Powerd speakers r always better if made correctly.this man is honest . He made amp pre amp ext.but he knows power speaker r better then passive and he admit that hats of. Love you sir.kef ls 50 wireless is an example.
I gotta say to a bunch of you who have adopted active or passive studio monitors, welcome to the more realistic and accurate sound of recordings and mixes, however, you will begin to notice some of your old favorite stuff doesn't sound the way you remember it and that could be because it never sounded that way to start with.. you'll learn as you listen.. I grew up on 2" tape in the studio and I'm in my mid 50's.. I've heard every kind of box and panel with speakers they make or damn close and I'm still running some jbl 4412-A passive horizontal only mid field but stay in your lane kinda sorta and lots of power feeding them from a Hafler 9505 trans nova 250 a side @8 ohms.. picked up some jbl 308p powered about a year ago and those are good to great for anything 110 watts each cabinet.. my wife had some infinity something's when we met.. they sure were cute!
I have Linn klimax 350 fully active speakers including the x over and they sound great.
The advantage of a active studio monitor would be that you usually has some ways to ajust how they sound regarding how they are placed in the room etc.
There are a few powered 2-way studio monitors going these days (maybe they are the cheaper models). My friend bought some for about $600 and they were impressive, good bass for 6" two-way bookshelf speakers (powered).
Very few for audiophile systems maybe but for sound reinforcement and studio speakers there is plenty of powered solutions, the biggest thing is having active crossovers with seperate amps for efficiency. Like you said the biggest thing is probably mindset, the kind of people buying high end audiophile systems don't like the idea of powered speakers despite them being potentionally superior, its snobbery and need for control. The best system should be one that is designed to work together.
Actives miles ahead in so many ways,passive have so many problems that cannot be solved.
LoL
I take it that you cannot design a quality passive crossover?
George Zubeck I'll take a DSP crossover over a passive any time.
George...Yes they exist but they are just a very expensive compromise and cannot do what an active crossover can acheive.
You need to qualify this. How much better does it sound to you. Would you be better served by better drivers and a super high quality passive crossover. I think what your saying is that the active crossover is better because there's an immediate transition between speaker components with no overlapping between the drivers. For me the sound qualities only diminishes as the source quality diminishes. Garbage in Garbage out.
Active, bi-amped studio monitors have been pretty common for the past decade. Tannoy Reveal 802 was my first pair, bought after a recording professor recommended their passive predecessor. I'm still blown away at the quality:$ ratio to this day. They're definitely on the lower quality end of active (TL074s, mains hiss, etc.) but compared to a passive bookshelf under $600? Not even a comparison. Leagues ahead, in my experience.
Hi Paul, we bought an active sub that controls two passive speakers!
the amplifier in this sub was much too light, and then there was also terrible sound from the entire installation!
a good friend of ours builds amplifiers and is just like you in the business, he connected his personal amplifier to these passive speakers and that made a world of difference!
so we brought this installation back and bought a good ab class amplifier and bigger 12 inch passive speakers.
Now the sound is much better, a pity that there is not much choice in amplifiers, almost all top models are not available in Europe!
I’d say some of the only powered speakers that I’ve really enjoyed are the LS50 Wireless from KEF and some of the higher end Bang & Olufsen models, even then I didn’t really like the top end. I’m also looking forward to hearing some Dali Callisto speakers as I love their passive models, so I have high hopes for these. I think I’d like to see these designs going forwards, however, I fully agree with your first point; us hifi types like to tweak our systems, in fact, we often enjoy that as much as listening to the music!
Bang and Olufsen has been putting out some stunners that surpass passives for a while now. In terms of sound and price wise! (looks wise too)
B&O make electronic furniture not hi-fi
@@johnholmes912 They do make Hi Fi.. they just don't make items for low self esteem idiots who feel guilty about looking at something beautiful because they have mommy issues from childhood..
The question should be, now that active loudspeaker are common is there any hope for passive speakers?
It would be great if these wireless speakers were sold with the electronics contained in a third, small "module" which would connect to each speaker. Each speaker could have "backup" terminals that could be connected to another source and used passively if the amp goes out and the amp could be sent in for repair.
I agree that the flexibility of of a separate amplifier and non driven speakers are the preferred method for all of us who have been using this equipment since the 70’s for me. However young people who are just finding the benefits of loudspeakers and ditching their headphones are not interested in the learning curve associated with component stereo. The powered speaker has a future. Believe me.
Genelec, KRK, Vanatoo, iLoud, JBL...they all make good active speakers.
Ha! Back in the day I had a pair of Meridian M3's Paul which replaced my huge AR90's ... The M3's sounded amazing with solid 3D imaging.
I did miss the bass from the AR90's cool looks, and, did I say Bass 😀 but was compensated with resolution and a "real" kind of sound with simple acoustics.
Today, Active Speakers have moved on tremendously, and are actually cost effective.
Of course there are excellent passive speakers, just think Actives offer something uniquely special.
I'm a general consumer so I'm considering purchasing the Jamo S801PM active monitors to go with a new TV that's is also under consideration. I'll hopefully try to match it with one of their family of subs. So it will be all directly connected to the TV's Line jack and use the TV's built in virtual surround DSP. I think this would be better than purchasing a similarly priced soundbar which would've ended up not having a two way bass reflex feature, duplicating smart features I would have on the TV or my mobile phone (some of which I don't need), and end up using more space on my TV table.
Going to the music shop years ago they had a huge wall of different speakers they would connect up for you. I noticed that the passive speakers are more powerful and have a stronger kick compared to powered speakers.
You missed talking about Martin Logan or infinity electrostatic speakers like model 5335 which are powering the highs not the low end. Your favorite speaker does this. Very popular and great sounding.
I have Meridian dsp8000 se upgraded active speakers they sound superb , as good as a Audio research / Wilson audio system . .Full dsp 4 dacs and 5 x150 watt class A amplifiers with active crossovers per speaker fed by a 808v6 cd /pre amp ,makes for a simple system that eliminates UPGRADE ITIS no need for expensive cables and other tweekery which PS audio would naturally dislike because you will have no need for their products .
Electronic crossovers: ATC, JBL M2 home version, Emerald Physics, ... Digital (DSP) crossovers active speakers or systems: Kii, B&O flagships, Avantgarde Acoustics Zero, Bryston active model T and middle T (outboard amps and crossovers), Buchard A500, KEF LS50W, ... every single audiophile active system out there has great reviews.
correct me if im wrong but an active speaker is just a driver in a box with an amp, assuming you have a decent driver/s and a decent amp in the box you should be fine assuming your audio input source is not crappy right?
Yep, they also usually have an active crossover so you amplify each driver individually.
The cheapest alternative to this with audiophile stuff would be a line level crossover after your DAC into separate amps for each driver. Which is pretty expensive. Linkwitz labs has similar systems to that.
I wanted to be a clever clogs and suggest that they're all powered speakers otherwise you get nowt. I'll concede one thing though, that is the issue of cabinet design. The passive boxes obviously have more space for various porting airflow and resonant frequency design choices on a like for like basis.
No inclusive PSU and amplifier would surely bring more freedom in this regard, either way I'm not concerned myself.
I really do apreciate these educational videos however I sometimes feel they edge a little too far in the self promoting direction. Not always but sometimes it feels like the pitch could be a little more subtle. Also don’t studio monitors already achieve what this question is asking very successfully indeed. In theory passive speakers are working around so many issues a passive speaker doesn’t have in the first place. I think a more accurate answer would have been, So far the consumer market hasn’t seen a good implementation of active loudspeakers but in theory they would be technically far superior. Please don’t take thas a negative comment. I have learned a lot from your videos and look forward to new ones but great things can still use constructive criticism.
I don't agree 100%. First, this is a PS Audio channel where together with all the honesty in Paul's answers I respect him NOT being afraid of telling his own opinion about a certain brand - and I mainly mean negative opinion here. If you're looking for real unbiased information, go and visit all other manufacturers' blog/vlog and then create the synthesis for yourselves. This video is only Paul's opinion. It might be true or even not - it's just an opinion. And the free expression of one's opinion is way more important nowadays than hiding that specific opinion in favor of political correctness. Because in the latter case you always loose the truth, YOUR TRUTH, your experience while on the other hand, political correctness doesn't allow anyone to get a deeper insight into a certain topic, in this case active speaker sound quality. On a scale of -10 and +10 if you mask all the different makes' qualities with 'political correctness' near zero, at the end those zeros don't tell anything for the listener. It's still better to get some kind of information out of somebody's experience, be it cold or hot, than getting a near-zero neutral "nothing" of a certain topic. If you hear cold here, you might hear hot there - that's life and that's how we people live, a strong middle gray average doesn't tell you anything, blacks and whites here and there tell you a lot. I'd be glad to see more and more people undertake their own opinion, stand to it (rather than just be 'political correct' and say nothing for getting some more likes). At the end of the day it's always up to the viewers, listeners to decide if they would like to go the somewhat darker way, the somewhat lighter way, the grey way in the middle (because every brand sounds the same or nobody tells a different opinion about them - nonsense of course).. or if they dare to listen to a bunch of different opinions and then make their own conclusions after that. You don't have to follow 1 blog, you can follow a lot of them and meet your decisions this way and it IS absolutely normal indeed to get different opinions about a certain product/brand/whatever. And of course the best choice is still experiencing everything by yourself, but if you don't have the chance to do this (shall it be money, time, wife factor :), whatever..) then at least accept several different opinions and the colourfulness of the world than wanting to see everything averaged out, just for 'staying correct'. As a last thought: there must be a reason why those mentioned Meridians didn't sell well. Maybe others do make a great success for the company. But still, we should be able to express our own and honest opinion freely, anytime, anywhere. Cheers.
He did say that electronic crossover are way superior to passive crossovers, but then rubbished active speakers. That's a bit of paradox.
@@disnaess Started reading (with interest) your opinion until I clicked on 'Read More' to be greeted by a block.
Here's some constructive criticism, if you want to be heard, have some consideration for your audience.
ie. Spacing & Paragraphs.
Dudes a CEO, you need to expect him to talk his book. Kinda basic media literacy brah.
kii 3 is the most interesting speaker right now for sale. using the speakers on the side to phase cancel room sound from the start.
Dutch & Dutch 8c, their main competition, achieve essentially the same thing.
The people who mix and master the music we buy have used active speakers for decades - good enough for me, as long as the amplifier is built to last. Assorted reports of problems with the LSR305/308 highlight just how important QC is with these designs. Get a good pair and there's 'no problem' but those who haven't been so fortunate are extremely vocal.
In the guitar community you can have an amp modeler, and a cabinet modeler that very effectively allow the user to completely alter the sound in the way you are talking about. Build it into the base of the speaker. Let the end user touch a button, or go into an application to hear different combinations of different components. It seems to already exist on the music making end of the spectrum. Why can't it be done on the music reproduction end?
Active crossovers, DSP, speaker correction and so on and all the benefits it comes with will exceed passive systems. One important one for me is DSP controlled speakers play as good, with same sound characteristics on lower, medium and even higher volume.
I think the real question should be is if it's using an active or passive crossover!!!
fookingsoc
I totally agree with this statement.
You make that powered speaker from ps audio that you referenced, I'll buy it. I trust your judgement on this project. Analog kid becomes a digital man. thanks Paul.
I watched this AFTER watching the speaker preview vid. Prophetic words here! :)
I've never heard of a will-powered speaker but it sounds interesting.
It is almost impossible to buy a set of studio monitors that are not self powered anymore and there are some wicked sounding studio monitors available. In fact there are very few amps marketed for studio use anymore either.
I have active speakers because I believe that the designers as professionals will be able to do a better job pairing speakers and amps that I can do. Indeed I would love to have a listen to a set of PSAudio powered speakers given that they end up with a price tag that I can pay.
Others mention the KEFs, I would add Dynaudio, who do excellent speakers, both passive and active.
Some will want to tweak things them selves, others will just go active and focus on the music.
It depends on what you mean by active. If you mean active crossover with dedicated amps maybe. If you mean built into the speaker then no. Building it into the speaker limits your choices of amplifiers to those least affected by the hostile environment inside of the cabinet which eliminates some of the best amplifier types available.
Who cares more about audio quality than an audiophile? A producer! Producers buy active systems.
Accuracy is a higher priority for the producer than the quality.
You don't see movie buffs buy photography screens because they are flat with low contrast , same with studio monitors
Movie buffs are buying expensive studio monitors for their surround systems.
@@jamieanderson7757 Not most. They lack dynamics in their presentation.
@@hartsickdisciple "They lack dynamics in their presentation." Dynamics is one thing high end main monitors do NOT lack!
Maybe the answer is a modulator speaker system that has slot in D2A converter to suit the listeners taste.that Way the manufacturer can advise on what D2A card would suit the space it's in??
I am looking at pair of Magnepan Magneplaner speakers for the low cost and high resolution. Paul, do you think Bi amping them is really worth the money? Or just go with a good full range amp??
Thanks for the vids. 👍
Try a pair of PSI A25’s.
Both can be done well or badly. The next problem is, who are you to judge? At what frequency extreme does your hearing end? How good are you at pinpointing sounds in space - different quality than frequency range and needs brain training. Are you able to distinguish musical instruments and/or voices in an orchestra performance context? Big problem with passive is the filters can introduce frequency dependent phase shifts. Problem with active is the amps may start vibrating and cause distortion. Active needs frequency separation too. Or, the answer to the title question: it depends.
Genelec did a great job.
Yeap. The 8260 and their evolution with The Ones are some of the best.
Genelec sound is really highend stuff!
Hello paul i love your opinions .. whats your take on infinity overture 3s these to me sound great having powered subs . Whats your honest opinion on them . Thanks
Powered speakers are still passive. One amp in the box with a crossover. Active speakers have an amp per driver with electronic crossover. I love my ATC active speakers and will never go back to passive.
Yes, they will be superior if designed and tuned well. DSP, active crossovers, dedicated amps for each driver, speaker correction.
Active crossovers with passive speakers is another way to connect.
No inductors required.
Higher damping factor.
DSP, no phase shifts.
What's the disadvantage besides needing more amplifiers? Car audio magazine always said active crossovers were much better. Less power loss also like 20% I think..
Problem is that a good stereo active crossover is as expensive as an amplifier. Then, 2 amps more. Bill goes wild pretty quick.
@@BastianUllr what about old active car crossovers? Surely they'd be as good as or better than passive ones.. yeah wish I still had my two rotel amps that had 3 channels in each!
@@backwoodsbillycreeks2174 I don't know, but any speaker crossover sounded way better than any active one I tried for under 500 bucks. At that point I quited. Might contribute to the end result, but only when you're ready to throw a full equipped sedan out of the window for a home stereo... as per my humble estimation
There are high-end active loudspeakers: backes & müller, Silbersand, some manger speakers, some Dynaudio models
Also the Buchardt A500, those speakers looks fantastic and the reviews are great
Wrong question. Rephrase: will passive speakers ever have steeper or more precise crossovers compared to DSP controlled speakers with active crossovers?
No loudspeaker is going to have absolutely perfectly uniform response throughout its useful range. An amplifier which is designed to work with one particular speaker can be tailored to compensate for any non-uniformity in the speaker design. Speaker designs that would sound dreadful without compensation can often be made to sound decent if compensated properly, though a $2 speaker isn't apt to sound great no matter what kind of electronics one attaches to it. I wonder if the poor reputation of powered speakers stems from the fact that many of them don't start with the best quality speaker elements?
Also, another advantage of powered speakers you didn't mention is that self-powered speakers can be made much more resistant to damage than passive ones. A stereo receiver will have no way of knowing how much power connected speakers will be able to tolerate; as a consequence, it will have no way of clamping outputs to a safe level unless it's too anemic to drive speakers hard enough to cause damage. By contrast, an amplifier that's designed for use with a particular speaker assembly can be constructed to detect when any components of an input signal would be dangerously powerful, and reduce the volume of such signals to prevent damage.
How about a powered speaker where the amp is attached to the speaker's back with exposed speaker leads, where you can choose to use that amp, or not, or even remove it altogether.
The exception to to this rule are guitar amplifiers and bass amplifiers depending on on how you look at them they are either passive or active
Currently the best speakers in the market are active: Backes Meuller BM line, Bang and Ollufsen beolab 90, Kii speakers, Grimm LS1, Linn Akubarik, ME Geithain, Manger MsM1, Adam tensor ... oh shoot ... these are all european ...
Those are not the best speakers on the market.
We are there yet.
Look at the Ascendo Immersive Audio Live 15 AVB Network Technology Speakers with High End Room Correction .
They sound amazing.
Better than any passive system at that price point.
Regards Hermann
Random question here:
If I have two Passive 8 ohm ,600 watt (peak power) speakers what kind of amp do I need?
Would I need a 600-1000 watt amp?
Plz someone educate me, I’ve seen so many videos and am still a little lost
I have My dads passives but now I’m just considering powered just for the convenience
I used to swap the woofers out of my towers with car subwoofers and that usually handled my bass issues.
Steinway Lyngdorf have active speakers that are very impressive. High end!
I think Bryston's (not associated) latest active speakers offering is a rather interesting third way to do things. Active speakers but with the amplification & DSP outside of the loudspeakers - and therefore upgradeable.
I think this is the way to go.
Well explained.. As a sound technician my self, i prefer setting up a passive PA..
Altec Lansing in the late 80's released a behemoth powered speaker the BIAS 550. 5, yes 5 Class A/B toshiba internal amps it was a sick setup. Even Dunlavy audio cloned the cabinet design on one of their best selling sets!
whats a good passive studio monitor? please be specific
How much power can you deliver with a built in amp? I think you need really sensitive drivers that won't clip with built in amplifiers. I also think that until a company like PS audio is dedicated to selling amp plate modules to even competitor manufactures of speakers this idea will not gain traction. Nothing like spending $5 grand on a pair of powered speakers and have one of the amps go out and the manufacturer is no longer around. With a passive system you can just go out and buy a new amp. Kind of reminds me of high end surround sound receivers that cost $2000 and three years later they're worth $500 even though they have a high quality built in amp. People don't like to have technological obsolesce kicking them in the financial arse.
George Zubeck According to Meridian you need half the amp power with their active speakers. Maybe because there’s no heat lost in passive crossovers?
I can answer this question. I have Genelec 8" studio- There is so much headroom available , My Halfer Diablo goes in to clipping to reach those same DB. Thier super loud. The SQ is also awesome , as good as some entry level high end. And they should be , they were 6400$.
You got a big magnet on the end of the speaker. How is it not a bad idea having an amplifier and other circuitry that close to it?
No
Here's a very concrete example: My Amphion One15 + 100w Amphion amp priced aprox. the same as my previous Genelec 8050. The Genelecs are a lot better than the Amphions. I guess partly for the reason Paul says in the video, the parts work “perfect” together. I may exaggerate now but passive vs powered is not fair to compare really. You'll need to invest almost twice on a passive system to compete.
I would say they could be better. You have matching amps to the drivers and cabinets. It's all tailored to the end sound.
i picked up a pair of dynaudio excite actives. i think they sound pretty good. could these be one of the few you mentioned sound good?
dynaudio makes very good active speakers.
PA is rapidly going active and some is claimed to be very hi fidelity such as the Presonus range.
Cable losses and loss of damping has to be a big factor.
Have you ever listen to a Philips mfb speaker from the 70`s I think the speakers did sound good.
This video hasn't aged well.
Newbie vinyl enthusiasts are taking the shortcut to powered speakers due to budget, and brands like Edifier are taking over with rave reviews.
People everywhere are buying mono powered speakers with Bluetooth technology that sound awful but have a lot of power to wake your neighbors 3 blocks away.
The common people or casuals look for convenience, and with their smartphones capable to store plenty of music and the option to connect them to those lo-fi powered speakers, is bliss for them.
Thanks for that. Im about to buy the edifier 1700bts powered bookshelves as a part of downsizing, I read a bunch of reviews that said when connected to a subwoofer (they have an out for such) that they give a great bang for your buck. What do you think? I think part of Apples success is the fact that the make the software exactly fit their hardware and all their accessories - to the point you kinda get locked into their products. Personally I would trust an engineer to create things that gel well together rather relying on my amateur attempts.
Consider the PreSonus 3.5 or 4.5. Balanced inputs, more neutral and detailed sound
Probably without wanting, you said the truth. The imperfections of poorly designed passive crossovers make speaker cables and amplifiers sound different. Active crossovers eliminate all these issues, but how are you then going to sell your precious leads for unbelievable amounts of money?
Never got into the speaker scene (never even owned a proper loudspeaker) this is all new to me. But the question implies that active speakers is inferior to the passive counterpart. Can anyone provide context/explanation for this?
In my opinion, tweaking your system with a good amp and EQ with passive PA tops is better because you can tailor the sound range and quality, also you're safe if the amp or speaker goes bad instead of needing to service or replace an all-in-one active speaker. Don't put all your eggs in one basket so-to-speak speakers.
Edifier makes the flagship S3000 Pro powered bookshelf speakers, and they sound fantastic! Perhaps not as fantastic as the PS audio $29k speakers, but excellent in its own right. Edifier touts them as audiophile grade speakers with hi-res audio. The master can accept Bluetooth, RCA, fiber optic, digital coaxial, USB, and even XLR. There is a “Monitor” selection on the remote control for use as studio monitors-wow! Talk about flexibility and performance! 38Hz to 40kHz, these baby’s cover it all, and rock! I have limited options when it comes to speaker placement in my living room, because I don’t want a cable running across the floor in front of the fireplace. Edifier solved that with the S3000 Pro by using a proprietary wideband wireless connection between the master and slave. The slave can be placed anywhere up to around 300 ft from the master. I will just say that I am VERY pleased with these powered bookshelf speakers. And they also look premium sitting atop their Edifier stands.
To make a great powered speaker you first need to be able to make both great amplifiers and great speakers and that's a very tall order for a starting position.
Few people are both construction workers and dental hygienists.
lot's of manufactures buy finished modules. ICEPower comes to mind.
most manufacturers also don't make their own drivers either.
oh wow! that doesn't make any sense!
Peter S: totally agree! That is a surprisingly rare achievement, especially in providing good value for both amplifiers and speakers. Quad is one of the rare modern companies that make both very well, but even their powered speakers have received lukewarm reviews.
In reality all one is talking about is where the power amp is located, and how perfectly the power amp is matched to the speakers.
Very simple explanation:
The first part: If one took the absolute finest power amp that normally sits half way across the room from the speakers and simply bolted it to the back of the speaker box, one would have a powered speaker.
Likewise if one took the amp from a powered speaker, extended the output leads and set that amp on a shelf away from the speaker, one would have separates.
That gets us to Part Two: Precisely matching the output stage to the exact needs of that specific speaker instead of trying to build the speakers and the amps with flat universal response.
With separates each "stage" has to be designed to a nearly impossible flat response in order to universally match "anything" connected.
With "powered speakers" one combines two stages, and the speakers don't need to be absolutely flat (impossible?) so long as the mated amp has a complementary response so the overall response from line level (or digital) to sound is flat.
This STILL leaves all sorts of potential custom tuning to room and preferences in the "control" or "preamp" stage.
What is needed is some decent marketing to convince the "Audiophile Set" that the frequency response at some non-reachable midpoint (I.E. the interface between amp and speaker in a powered speaker set) does not need to be flat, and is likely better without that constraint, so long as it *is* flat from accessible line level or digital input to audible output.
New paradigm, anyone?
Aslan Acoustics Reference R1 4way active with onboard EQ coupled with AM-RT3 preamp! 😍🤩🤗
ATC & PMC speakers sell rather well at both the pro and HiFi level thank you very much.
hi Paul, if a company like yourself put in the best linear amp into their flagship speaker then that would be the best powered speaker.This means as you age and your ears go deaf you now can only make a change to the output of sound to actually hear a flat response using an EQ before the amp means you are modifying the input signal and you loose the "Audiophile" perfect setup. you cover the customers ability to change their setup and use other amps and speakers to make a system that suits their perception of the perfect sound.Unfortunately due to a speaker drivers inherent variables of materials, every speaker made is different to another speaker in the same factory. They are close but not exact. Amplifiers are a lot closer in spec tolerances. The room acoustics in customers home or listening environment has the largest difference your "perfect" system has to work in.
I'm in the Pro music business for 35 years and still mixing desks are used to compensate for the Many manufacturers want to claim /beat their opposition with their products so they would build a good amp and speaker box and then add DSP, basically an equaliser to force the speaker box to be as linear as possible using their good but not great designs. this is a throw back to Dr Amar Bose using a good 3.5 inch speaker in an array and EQ the hell out of it to produce the "perfect sound" like bose 901 or Bose 802(with 302 bass/Subs) using their equaliser/controller boxes. Whilst the 802/302s were the Go To speakers of the 80s as their look was so different to other manufacturers they had a good sound for the drunk listeners and they had no real concept on a great sound, it just had to be loud. people badmouth the Bose designs from those days and now everyone has "Array" with a sub and many small speakers on a pole and are doing exactly what was done back in the day and they use DSP the same way Bose used an EQ to compensate for the poor speaker design. The difference is DSP provides a few preset functions for bass and treble boost smiley face EQ and also high pass for use with subs and a voice mode for speaking. some add a 3 band graphic on the digital interface screen if they have a screen.
Whilst this is not in the scope of what your business and this video is about, i'm sure this may clarify to your viewers the fact that the vast range of listening environments cant rely on a powered speaker for perfect sound as the product also has to match their home or venue and a compromise has to be made at some point. Manufacturers also could make a perfect system for their controlled sound room and it wont suit your needs. A person has to use their own perception or best sound hence why you change amps and speaker designs, or use and hide an EQ or DSP controller so your system always sounds good forever as you tweak it as required for the degradation of speaker materials (spider surround and cone) and ear response as you own the same equipment over the 50-80 years of your life.
I think the basic problem is that customers look at both active and passive speakers as just speaker components. They do not compare total system cost fairly. Look at all the stuff you get for your money with a passive system. preamps, power amps, cable, perhaps DSP or pre Hi/low filter into bi-amps etc. Well with a powered system of equivalent audio quality, you would have to spend the same just for 2 boxes. So which looks the better deal in terms of stuff you get for your money and which looks the most impressive?
Seriously, most people can't identify high end sound with their ears but they can relate to an impressive array of component bling and hefty looking cables.
So, how can a manufacturer produce a high end active system that costs the same as an equally high end pair of passive speakers. They can't and this is why powered speakers means cutting costs at every turn, light weight resonant boxes, poorer drivers and cheaper under performing electronics. This is just what you have to expect with them.
I think active should be much better when done right and provide cleaner power for source while also being backup power for computer all at same time.
do you really hear the difference if you change the cables?
will passive speakers ever be equal to powered? ;)
Yeah I'd think amp/driver matched systems can be better. Crossover before the amp and all that...
Active done right wins hands down. Just look at ATC. 👌
The main thing against powered speakers to my taste is the (bad) influence of vibrations on the electronics. Also I don't care for class D.
On the other hand I own the KEFX300A and the LS50 with several K of electronics to make up for the package of the X300A active speakers: at the end I decided that the LS50 "made more music" but the active KEF X300A had definitely something going for it, partially more transparent that the LS50 combination. Anyway: the active KEFX300A as speaker at the sides of the monitor of your computer is a heck of a good speaker, very much bang for the buck! That I even had to do an ABABABA test is indicative for the quality of the X300A