As far as I understood, the Ingebrigtsen adapted this double threshold system more and more as a search to avoid injuries. Injuries would come up again and again, so they looked for safer ways to increase volume. That becomes very important for professional runners and helps you accumulate volume.
these nonsense only have Warholm, who's a middle a distance sprinter hurdler, but suddenly, the Norwegian system is revolutionary when the guy the guy is not even an endurance athlete, but a sprinter!!!! these dark wintered light deprived nonsense. my word. and I'm married to a Swede!!!!
You also are starting to see it in strength training and bodybuilding where you have 1-2 reps to spare from total failure (max effort) and can get away with a high enough volume for training stimuli and not hammer away at the muscles (And tendons, ligaments) with "overreach effort" too often (in the long run also getting into stalling development). Yes, at periods total failure, max effort, should be done but the tendency now is to spend more time in the close to, but not at, the max effort.
@@Magnus_Loov Dude, you're talking complete nonsense. Bodybuilding has nothing, at all, to do with middle distance hurdling sprinting. Try making sense or just sit down, you ridiculous nonsense.
@@frank-ko6debeing married to a swede doesnt mean what you think 😂 5 million people and most winter Olympic medals in history only due to endurance spurts. Kenya can’t even lace our boots lmfao
I’m 61 now, and did my first marathon at age 55. When I was younger the training, philosophy was run till you puke. My first marathon was abysmal, my second and third not much better. Then I found the book 8020 running by Matt Fitzgerald. That changed everything for me and convinced me that you don’t have to go all out on every work out. It seems to be a simpler version of this Norwegian method. Of course, I didn’t have VO2 max and lactate threshold, measuring available to me, I only had heart rate. But my 5K dropped from about 26 minutes to 22:56 and my marathon went from 5:15 to 4:18. I’ve hung up my distance running, and I’m concentrating on Pole Vault now, and the sprint training for that is just as different from what I learned when I was a teenager.
Norway has been low key great in endurance sports. It's just usually focused on cross country skiing - but every so often somebody chooses a different sport and we get a random marathon runner, cyclist, or whatever making waves
Even a 400m sprinter with Ingvaldsen who broke the Norwegian national record this year at the World Championships which was previously held by Karsten Warholm (you know that 400m hurdles record holder guy;).
When i ran interval training was very hard, much harder than today. But no one understood the concept of adaptation, basically that the gains do not come during the training but in the rest between training when your body adapts to the greater stress. Just knowing that and a heart rate monitor can get you very far. But now you add in lactate, VO2 Max, and sleeping devices to measure how well your body reacts to the training and you can completely control your training without breaking down. When i ran it was Russian Roulette, you trained as hard as you could and hoped you missed the bullet in the chamber(breaking down). Now you can predict that long before it happens. My performances took off when i learned that you should always have a little left at the end of a workout, or even a race. Even though it was a small amount, the psychological advantage of always knowing you would finish strong because you had more in reserve than the other guy made a big difference in my confidence.
@@erlendsteren9466 i feel like the way I realized it was by just making the workouts a bit easier such that I wouldn't dread them. Turns out it also made for better improvements. Now this doesn't mean the workout is easy, it's just not pushing it to that absolute end limit like during a race
@@Postermaestro A smart way to work! I believe that sustainable training is the way to go, and when I say sustainable I mean preservering the fun and avoiding injuries and illness which might come fast if we push to hard.
I've been enjoying your videos a lot, Göran-it's not just your 'content', it's your demeanor which is very honest and hospitable. Cheers from South Australia 🦘🦘
I’ve been doing treadmill repeats and tempo intervals on the treadmill about 3 months. I hated it at first and then started enjoying it just like yourself. It’s definitely increased my top end work speed and endurance and helped take some impact out of the joints. I’ve also noticed you have to have better form on the treadmill at those top speeds, but maybe that’s just anecdotal to my experience. Thanks for another great video, Goran! Still my favorite UA-cam channel.
This makes sense. I ran at my best in Dubai when doing long runs was only possible on the treadmill. My 10km got down to a 32min. For me a lifetime best. When I moved back to Australia, i was doimg hard hill intervals. Also made me srrong but I was no where near as fast. I lacked the treadmill. That is the secret, plus chilling out and not pushing myself like a racehorse. Great video. Thank you.
With so many videos talking about ‘running slow to run fast’ it’s refreshing to hear of some actually successful training techniques that involve ‘running faster’! I ran slow for the last 15 years, lots of mileage all slowly. I then started training doing tempo and threshold sessions and just smashed my marathon and half marathon PB. As you state, it’s all about the right balance of ‘fast and slow’ + ability to recover that gets results - there aren’t any cheat mode or short cuts! P.s. - treadmills are torture!
Yeah... Run slow to run fast. 😂 Every big UA-cam channel makes 10 versions of this every month as if it's some sort of a new revelation and there are people who would punch you if you tell them only running slow will never make you fast. 😂
i didnt watch the video yet. ive been doing great progress just by running fast, 90 second reduction in my 1 mile time in 2 months. I've been doing maybe 4 vo2max workouts for every 1 slow workout. Not saying my training makes any sense. I think we should have enough slow workouts to get rid of the lactic acid build up from fast workouts (which is something I'm not doing). I don't know how many slow workouts we should have to make this happen, but I Guess something like 1 hard workouts for every 2-3 slow workouts might just achieve this goal (of flushing the lactic acid).
@@pupper5580 Nice. Could you please share some details about your training history? Like how long you've been running and what's been your cumulative mileage over the years and what are your current PBs. Also age if you don't mind.
@@samuelhybrid When you're new, running slow is probably a good idea, you need to build strength and stability without getting injured. Don't rush into it. :)
Thx to your advice I’ve been trying to run almost every day at a lower easy effort with all my speed sessions up hills, It has helped me so much with avoiding injury and slowly getting faster.
Marius Bakken is a fucking hero to be so systematic and scientific in his approach, so early before everyone else. There was so many coaches just doing what they always done, and then a young runner comes along and research this in such a systematic way, while also being one of the best runners in Europe AND studying to be a doctor. Fucking epic.
I like the Norwegian model and support all the comments. I have a few thoughts of my own regarding the requirements to have a top endurance running country: 1. General ethnic genetics should be strong and athletic. The old Norse and Germanic warriors were strong. The East and West Africans are also known for their physical strength, speed and endurance. In contrast a country like India and China has a population of more than a Billion people each and almost no top runners. 2. Generally speaking altitude born runners have an advantage - Kenya, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Uganda, Morocco, South Africa. However there are altitude living people who do not run well - Peru / Bolivia etc. The East Africans are blessed to have latitude and altitude with relative mild winters. 3. Cold countries must be socia-economically strong to accommodate for winter training. Lesotho for example has the potential to deliver world class runners but the winters are just to harsh and winter training facilities non-existent. 4. Countries with fanatic sport status like football and rugby do not have many top runners. Athletic individuals are sucked into these sports and all funding and prestige goes to the super sport. Latin america football, South African rugby etc… 5. Countries with bad eating habits are at a disadvantage. The USA is a good example. The opposite is true for the Scandinavian countries. 6. Thereafter, the principles of consistent scientific training from a relative young age is important. Cross country is king. Off road trails are important. Over racing should be avoided. Annual increases of total weekly mileage should be calculated. Running specific strength and plyometric training should be included . Sub stress fracture intensity is different between individuals. (Foot strike, foot anatomy, weight etc). Each individual max long term intensity should be determined. Some runners are Toyota’s and some are Land Rovers. I like the regular inclusion of lactic threshold training. Johan Cronje bronze 1500m World Champs and Zola Budd used to do 3-4, 4km time trials per week. Friday for example had a morning and afternoon 4km. I think treadmill training should only be included in emotional/psych ready elite individuals. There is a risk of boredom / frustration. Despite many things, I think the Kenyan and Ethiopian models remain the gold standard. They have 1000’s of individuals who have run at the top. Their volume of runners over 40 years remain staggering.
I feel China has what could be some world class runners if using the right people but they are forced to go through the government program that does more harm then good basically only looking for legal cheating loopholes like microdosing to the max you can on drugs like EPO and Steroids at the same time yet not get busted in tests, coming up with excuses for cheating like they have for the swimmers in 2021, or using drugs in the 1990's but never allowing runners to run outside the country so they could cheat using old Drug Testing laws of the era as runners who have escaped China have admitted to being forced to use by the main track coaches/sports doctors who were East German and ex USSR Russia hired right after the fall of the communism as these cheaters were now looking for new jobs.
You’ll never convince me to get on a treadmill, no matter how logical your arguments are 😂 EDIT: guys relax - nothing wrong with treadmills. I just like to be in the outdoors and listen to the birds when I run. I'm fortunate to live in an environment where the weather is good for running all year round.
Living/Coaching/Training in Boulder Colorado during the 90s I watched the Kenyans/Africans doing these workouts over and over. 5 - 10 repeats x 1 mile at around 4:30 pace with 1 min recovery was a standard, which was at or just below threshold. Hence so much damn success on the roads/track. I always encouraged the treadmill to keep an athlete off the pavement to save the legs while working on leg speed. Seems logical.
Pretty delusional to attribute successes of African runners in the 90s to their superior training methods over Western runners.. but hey I guess it's the fashion now
Veronik Bilat : a sports physiologist in France was a pioneer in this type of training and at a Running camp at Peperdine University in 2001 we did Lactate monitoring during and after a 3000 meter test run. To find out best Running speed for training and where you're at in you're fitness ! Veronik spoke on this type of training during the week long camp and has written many articles about this and was training African runners for marathons.
Veronique Billat''s approach was not at all about threshold training. Her training philosophy was workouts at a much higher intensity _30 secs at VO2 max pace (i.e. 3k pace approx)/30 secs jog at VO2 max pace, 4 mins efforts at V02 pace etc. Slower running days to recover. Basically Billat was about polarized training slow running and VO2 max workouts with not much else in between. A totally different approach basically.
I already tried running till I was 90. It didn't work. I ran too many races, died of an enlarged heart. But I think I know where I messed up. Now I'm ready to try again. To answer your obvious question: Yes, I have since reincarnated. Duh!
I looked at World Athletics, and Norway has 0.97% of the all time toplist for the 1500 even though they only have 0.06% of the world's population. They also have 0.93% of the mile list, 1.13% of the 2000m list, 1.51% of the 3000m list, and 1.7% of the 2 mile list. That's crazy. I guess science-based training works. What a surprise lol
Any way to see how all those percentages change, if you set aside Superfreak Ingebriktsen? Even if he was a country all to himself, that would be a formidable country in middle distance running. Prior to him, I've never really thought of Norway as a major running country. Skiing, yes. But running?
It doesn’t hurt that it’s an extremely wealthy nation. I’d be more surprised if a poor country had bucked the statistics in the same way, and I wonder whether you’ve compared Norway’s level with comparable first world countries?
Would like to see the comparison against runners from other nations since not all nations are equally represented via total population. The other issue is some nations tend to focus on certain sports over others. E.G. you tend to see the Jamaicans in sprint events.
Thanks Goran. As runner and an MD, I can not read Bakken's notes. They are all over the place. I am really curious to look at the data myself but it really needs a re-organization and re-write badly. I am so appreciative that Bakken did this, however. Wonderfully insightful foresight.
Swimming has been doing high volume threshold training for years. John Urbancheck was devolving a system for it in the 80s. Cool to see it in other sports
@@MirkyMan Repeated movements can cause injuries regardless of the sport. Neck, shoulders, back and knee injuries are common among swimmers. You can also drown or have Swimming-Induced Pulmonary Edema in a triathlon or in an open water race.
Wow! I loved this video. I cannot run due to a motorcycle accident but was a bicycle racer and junior coach many years ago. I am now 67 years old and still like the idea of well planned training using a heart rate monitor, intervals, rest/recovery and so on. I had a huge increase in speed the last year being able to drop my cycling group at will as a solo rider. The difference was adding swimming in the morning, including interval training dispersed through the routine. I did not really know why I got so much faster on the bike as even young riders could not stay with me. Now I think I understand what happened. Thanks for this video
Great insights, Göran! The Norwegian Method's scientific approach and emphasis on controlled threshold training are game-changers for endurance athletes. Thanks for breaking it down. 🌟🏃♂ #EnduranceTraining #NorwegianMethod #OaxSport
This unexpected genre of good video and the wonderful knowledge presented in it is the confirming reason why I like UA-cam than many other open source information platforms.
L. Véronique Billat papers Interval training for performance went in a similar direction around the 2000. A lot of the work focuses around how much volume you can endure with certain intensity and rest intervals and how to maintain certain threshold levels. While those review papers are highly international, including the norwegens, the knowledge was used a lot in French, German cycling and triathlon training. Yeah the treadmill is perfect for keeping those intervalls consistant and once programmed you can just turn off the head and keep running. But i prefer doing them outdoors. I have a nice park nearby so i do them from one bench to the next. Not scientific but really enjoyable and does the job for me.
My understanding is that treadmill running can increase the risk of a stress fracture because you hit the ground in nearly the same way every time. The variance in footing outside on the other hand distributed the load a bit.
Great video! If you're interested in more history on why this testing and training method works well, watch anything by Dr Joe Vigil or pick up his book, road to the top. Vigil pioneered this style of testing and training in the 70s while head coach of Adams State. They won something like 15 national titles in a row, and Vigil went on to train more medalists from the 70s-early 2000s than any other American coach.
If I am not mistaken Norwegians also dominate cross-country skiing and really good in biathlon. Both are endurance sports more than anything else. Unfortunately, the majority of their athletes suffer from asthma and have to use inhalers. All are approved by IOC. Imagine how good they could’ve been if they were completely healthy. They would be impossible to defeat.
In the Texas summer months, treadmill training is superior to outside. I’ve done it both ways and there’s no question that treadmill training is much more effective.
@@pete5691 No. it’s not easier. I think it’ harder. Especially longer runs. I use a power meter and can adjust it based on lack of wind resistance to make it same effort as outside. I also set my TM to 0.5%. TM is especially helpful at controlling intensity during intervals and longer tempo runs. TM can get very uncomfortable with longer runs tho. My room will heat up, even with AC and fans. If you do it in a gym, it’s less of a problem. But there’s no air movement to cool off. I think people think the TM is easier because they go by the pace on the TM. That’s usually not accurate. It’s much better to use a foot pod on a TM.
I had a guess before you mentioned any research. Stephen Seiler is on this train for sure. I've done parts of his research as a hobby basic person just maintaining some form of fitness. My quick annecdoete based on him and a few others. Do 80% of training at zone 2 or less. for me at 40 years old, ok shape. 140 heart rate and low exertion. It should feel pretty easy. Light duty. Some time at medium high and some at high high all out for short periods. Interval HIIT. It is so easy to recover and do it again and again. Then pro's who are dedicated and not working full time jobs, can do this multiple times a day. To some extent and focus. Cold therapy and hot therapy is very good for me for recovery. I barely feel stress and strain in my muscles. But progress is made in time and quantity of weights to lift.
Interesting topic for those of us who like to learn and recognize the human wonder that is certainly part of the indivisible environment that surrounds us and how various factors play a role to a greater or lesser extent depending on their temporal and spatial situation. Without a doubt, measurement has been and will be in the scientific spotlight, however today it is more necessary than ever to take a broader look that involves those elements that could be left out and that play a role as important as that of lactate. Thank you for generating this type of content. greetings from Chile
Really interesting video - thanks! Do you have a view on the application of double threshold days for cycling (e.g. for a 20km cycle within a sprint triathlon)? Best wishes from the UK 😁
The fastest I've been was when I accidentally did something like this by run commuting to work. I also had unintentional intervals built in due to traffic lights. I had only ever run HM distances at that point but my fastest 5K is still from that era. I now run marathons and I'm probably fitter but not as fast at the sub-threshold paces these days.
Graeme Orbree trained exactly this way in the 90s for his pursuit world titles, his reckoning was that each round was a race effort there were two of these per day for the two day event He trained at race speed or dead slow recovery nothing in between
He was also quite the character, but people are so very different physically, but also mentally. What works to get one person to give it their all, might not work for others. :)
Marius bakken always says, that you can train at race pace and Get as Mechanicly efficient as you want, but in the end you will always be Limited by the things happening inside your body like enzymes and stuff. So trainig much at threshold and increasing threshold speed is the biggest factor for distance runners. This prossess also takes a lot longer time than race prepping, where you mabye need like 10 sessions to Get ready.
Nice video! Sweet Spot training is an excellent way to build capacity without taxing the ability to recover. Interval sweet spot training to teach close to race pace with greater volume is a really smart approach
Awesome video! I just subscribed too! Love your approach to making videos. Currently I have been obsessed with learning about Jakobs life and training. Look forward to more of your training videos
Fascinating research, obviously there is something important going on here. My question is, as a senior (68 years old) has there been any research work on how 'older athletes' can adopt a structured training program to 1. improve their long-term health while enjoying more competitive sports, 2. stay injury-free as our bodies change with age. You, me, we all are getting older. Training can still be fun if we could do it better (than just being an "old gym rat").
@@growtocycle6992 Are you sure about that? Traditional wisdom has it that strength, coordination, ligaments, flexibility and muscle mass, all decline more rapidly than endurance, with age. Hence require more attention, in order to slow aging related decay.
@@paulnorman8274 the issue is avoiding injury and also it's based on the knowledge that there are world class ultra marathon runners in their 50s/60s.... Short distance is out of the question at this age
Any chance you could give us a rehash in a dedicated episode, about how to adapt this to training for the half and full marathon, please and thank you@@goranwinblad ? :) Also, a quick question: without using a dedicated lactate measuring device, but instead relying on the likes of Garmin and their algorithms, what % under the lactate threshold should we assume when starting double treshhold training? i.e. How far below the "reported" LT should we be, ideally? Thank you again for your amazing and super insightful content - sincerely appreciated.
Some nuance: this is athletes chasing performance. Train smart. Yes, in order to not get injured. But I would rather say: train fun. Sport is for fun! Performance could be fun, and what is fun depends on the person. For me, the treadmill for performance is not worth it.
And why would you do sports if it’s not for performance? Or for health and fitness gains? If folks wanted fun , what could be more enjoyable than would just spend all day on the sofa snacking with a game console or tv. Sports are PAINFUL and STRESSFUL activities, and I question the sanity of anyone do it for fun. If you’re going to be doing sports, it can only be for the purpose of a performance metric. So, isn’t it logical to choose the most efficient method to get there?
@@slowcyclist4324I think you would benefit tremendously from reading the book RUN by Matt Fitzgerald. It talks about how some of the worlds best runners (of their time) because this book is a little dated, would run by feel and would run based on fun and enjoyment of the run, which allowed them to not only run BETTER But also for more years than other athletes that didn’t enjoy their workouts and burnt out!
I love how these scientists come up with such interesting training modalities and strategies. It is always wild to me when a country like China has a vastly different training modality for something like weightlifting that works out and the immediate response by the west is "doping!" even though they are most tested athletes. I just want the same standards and praise applied for how cool this stuff is.
I’ve been using a pulse oximeter since 2016 to manage threshold. What’s funny is your blood oxygen and heartrate are not directly linear and there is a pronounced sweet spot where backing off slightly until your index recovers into the 90s which allow significantly more capacity to run longer. Lactate system is anaerobic and the body is incredibly efficient when you train the system that uses oxygen transport most efficiently
Hello, it is interesting to hear that long sweetspot sessions (slightly below 4mmol) are beneficial for runners. But do you know how does it translates for cyclists where 80:20 is popular? Essencially, interval session in or above treshold?
I've also read that blogpost. It's very interesting, to say the least. I thought one interesting thing worth noticing was that Jakob Ingebriktsen's dad seems to be claiming he didn't learn anything from Bakken. But Marius posted a lot of emails between them that showed how Ingebriktsen was totally trying to learn from Bakken. Now he seems to want to take all the glory for himself. I don't think Bakken said his sweet spot for the interval was significantly below his LT, I think what he meant was that his LT (and a lot of elite athletes) actually was lower than the 4mmol/l that is generally thought of as where the LT is.
Use light wind-braking pants and jackets, and you're fine. When it's below zero C degees I use sports wool underwear, over zero I use different technical underwear. Wool socks are used from 6-7 degrees C. When raining and cold, I have a light gore-tex jacket.
Pyramid intervals: Warm up 30 min 1 min on 1 min off 2 min on 1 min off 3 min on 1 min off 3 min on 1 min off 2 min on 1 min off 1 min on 1 min off Rest 10 mins and repeat 2 more times. Cool down for 30. Minutes on are in zone 3 or 4. Minutes off are in zone 1. Warmup and cool down zone 1 or 2.
Ingebrigsten endurance training was amazing in the Paris 1500 metre final when not one, not two but three athletes all ran past him in the final 100 metres.
@@Lewythefly I did, it was a very weak field. Mo Farah in his prime, just like the 1500 metre guys have worked him out, would have creamed him with his race tactics over 5K and a proper sprint finish not his plodding final 200.
Thank you for the video I like your critical thinking on 'not as important if non-pros go over their lactate threads-hold since you don't train the same volumes and typically have longer rests'. On the same note, I think that you should keep running outdoors if you enjoy it unless you're going for medals. Sell the treadmill ^.^
People start to realize that volume beats the american movie style all out workouts. This is too complicated for regular peaople, but the idea is push yourself as much as possible while making sure you can repeat the next day.
I've read on several running forums that Norwegian proxy for the lactate meter is 85% of max HR. Is this true? As I understood it, the idea is that 85% MHR is conservative approach, providing cushion so that you avoid drifting past threshold rate which is generally anywhere from 88-92% of MHR depending on how highly trained the runner is.
Yes, by running slightly slower, you can do double the volume of training. It always has to be smart training though. It's nothing new, it's been done for decades, but Jakob Ingebrigtsen is the best in the world, so his training gets lots of interest.
So i've been doing double threshold with out looking into any of this stuff, i just felt i was making better gains doing 2 easier sessions than 1 intense one.
Hej Hej Göran! You inspired me to pick up running agin after a long time with this video! Thank you! - Is the 4x4 intervalls a "sub method" of performing the lactate threshold trainging? I read Marius's paper and searched online but some experts call the 4x4 method the norwegian method... but doesn't the 4x4 train way past the lactate threshold?
As far as the treadmill is concerned i have yet to see one that can do speed workouts. When they make one that can handle 25 second 200 meters let me know. Also the best thing for form is to have someone film you on a cinder track and then on an artificial surface. Then watch it in slow motion. On an uneven surface you learn to maximize your efficiency in foot placement, body lean etc. On an artificial surface your foot does not slide like it does on a cinder or dirt surface. You want to get your weight over your foot at an optimum efficient angle in respect to your body. It is hard to explain without showing but for instance if you overstride on dirt you slide a few inches because your foot is reaching. A treadmill will not give you optimum feedback because of the rollers and suspension.
Yeah the treadmill can't do everything. I never use them these days but have in the past, most recently as last year but I walked/jogged on it backwards for knee rehab training which I learned from Knees Over Toes Guy. Anyway it should only be a supplement to reg training. I love running on grass and dirt myself because it makes me stronger and running on a track is a piece of cake after. I haven't been on a cinder track I don't think but the track I ran on as a kid is just small rocks, gravel and some dirt anyway (might have to go back there lol).
Norway has a few good distance swimmers but they haven't shown any speed under 400m. You would think there would be knock on success in the middle distance events - 200 & 400m. Their mens national team record in the 4x200 is slower than junior age club teams from Canada (UCSC) & USA (Lakeside)
Folks seem to have the impression that wealth might be an important parameter here. In my opinion it is much more related to tradition, history and behavior if we try to view this through a sosiologic lens. Norwegians are outdoor a lot in general, and many have (or have access) to a cabin usually a couple of hours drive away. This lifestyle sort of is ingrained in the common way of living going wayyyy back, and this was originally to have an opportunity for simple but low cost family leisure normally either for weekends and holidays. Because back then an abroad travel for the holidays was viewed upon as very costly and luxurious, something you do rarely except for special occassions. This tradition is very well alive and kicking today, even if the standard of many cabins has a much higher standard today as a concequence of the rize in income and/or GDP. So both the normality of this way of living as well as the easy availability to nature and outdoor activities (and sports) is in my opinion a much better explanaition for the norwegian way of results, and maybe physical health in general. I would even question that if significant personal wealth creates winners in this matter. Good health maybe, due to access to better food and health services, but rarely for the creation of world top long distance runners (or skiers). But I agree for the average norwegian middleclass, it probably does not hurt;-) Except for the latter, all I can add to this little discussion is that norwegians drink the second most coffee in the world, after the swedes sorry to say, but again, that probably does not hurt either......Regards (average norwegian couch potato)
Norway also has the best chess player in history, Magnus Carlsen. He was world champion for ten years and stepped down voluntarily a couple of years ago because he got bored preparing for mandatory title matches all the time. Now he just plays when he wants to. Norwegians have mad skills at everything is my conclusion.
Goran - some comments. I also am non norwegian , living Norway, ran sub30 10K in the 90's, and have seen a lot of good people train. I read MB's article, and honestly a lot of it is not so new. But what is , is the intense use of blood lactate testing over heart rate, as you can keep the workouts down intensiry to have the massive volume of work, the double sessions, and not get absolutely trashed. but hard enough to still improve. Otherwise the training is not so different to Kenyan workouts with lots of mid intensity volume multi pace intevals and so on. Two negative comments - I think the treadmill stuff is wrong. The problem with treadmills is that running on them is a trick to an extent... try and outdoor mile or 800, then try to run one indoors - once you trick how you run, you'll be seconds faster for no more effort. The other issue the Ingebrigtsens suffer is that they're tactically naive. I recall when Henrik emerged he appearedvery strong, but always in races was tactically badly placed, and they've never really improved that - championship racing needs tactics as well as strengh, else you just fall prey to 'sit and kick'. Good luck!
What's the Norwegian method, having a family where the oldest is the worst runner, but still very good, the middle one is a little better, and the youngest is the best? The only Norwegian runner who is a cut above is Jakob, and he trained with his European champion and Olympian brothers every day for 10 years before he even reached high school age. His success has very little to do with measuring his blood lactate level or threshold training, I assure you of that. If someone is born into an Olympic-tier team that they get to compete with from the time they're very young and they'll turn out as incredible runners. It's the same as if you're born into a family with a chess grandmaster for a father, the odds are, you will be raised to be a very good chess player.
Interestingly, this training approach seems to correspond with current research about strength training. The best way to gain muscles is having a high volume of sets (30-50 sets a week). The individual number of repetitions within the set don't matter that much and can be somewhere between 8 and 35, as long as a set is close to failure. And similar to the endurance training not being running at all out pace in order to run more, in strength training not training to full failure every set but leaving 1-3 repetitions "in the tank" seems to be better as you won't have as much systemic fatigue and you can do more sets per week, thus more overall volume. I wonder whether there are similar mechanics in training your brain (i.e. when learning a new language or cognitive skill) than can be applied as I feel there are also a lot of similarities between learning and physical training.
I have a question regarding speed. My best 400 was around 52 while training for 8000 meter race. How would one develop a young runners speed for races like the 1500? Do improvements in lactate tolerance and aerobic capacity improve speed as well indirectly?
I’m am just a hs athlete, so this prolly won’t even be helpful, but I don’t think that aerobic will help, but the lactate tolerance might have a decent effect, especially for the shorter distance races that call for more anaerobic stress.
Have you ever considered how Beta-alanine play into this as it increases lactate threshold? Maybe not relevant for longer distance, but studies show significant improvements in intensities around 60 sec mark. Dunno if it will help or transfer unto 1500m for example, but maybe it will help on the sprint part?
This is great and a lot of footballers looking to improve their cardio base would benefit from seeing this nice summary, keep up the great work! I’ll be sharing training and physio videos weekly feel free to check it out if you’re interested!
@5:40 into this video and still no description of 2 treshold training days. What are those tresholds? Some personal lactate numbers to train at? Are these (running) sessions at higher or lower speeds wtr targeted competitive speed?
Its easy to measure anything. The art is to know when to do what how hard. Double threshold day is misleading. There are 2 thresholds LT1 and LT2. The first is above LT2 the other below LT1. Basically a fancy new name for polarization. Standardization has no special physical adaptation advantage. It's advantage is organizational because you can track what training has which effect by knowing what you exactly did and what you are going to do.
As far as I understood, the Ingebrigtsen adapted this double threshold system more and more as a search to avoid injuries. Injuries would come up again and again, so they looked for safer ways to increase volume. That becomes very important for professional runners and helps you accumulate volume.
these nonsense only have Warholm, who's a middle a distance sprinter hurdler, but suddenly, the Norwegian system is revolutionary when the guy the guy is not even an endurance athlete, but a sprinter!!!! these dark wintered light deprived nonsense. my word. and I'm married to a Swede!!!!
You also are starting to see it in strength training and bodybuilding where you have 1-2 reps to spare from total failure (max effort) and can get away with a high enough volume for training stimuli and not hammer away at the muscles (And tendons, ligaments) with "overreach effort" too often (in the long run also getting into stalling development). Yes, at periods total failure, max effort, should be done but the tendency now is to spend more time in the close to, but not at, the max effort.
@@Magnus_Loov Dude, you're talking complete nonsense. Bodybuilding has nothing, at all, to do with middle distance hurdling sprinting. Try making sense or just sit down, you ridiculous nonsense.
@@frank-ko6dewhat?
@@frank-ko6debeing married to a swede doesnt mean what you think 😂 5 million people and most winter Olympic medals in history only due to endurance spurts. Kenya can’t even lace our boots lmfao
I’m 61 now, and did my first marathon at age 55. When I was younger the training, philosophy was run till you puke. My first marathon was abysmal, my second and third not much better. Then I found the book 8020 running by Matt Fitzgerald. That changed everything for me and convinced me that you don’t have to go all out on every work out. It seems to be a simpler version of this Norwegian method. Of course, I didn’t have VO2 max and lactate threshold, measuring available to me, I only had heart rate. But my 5K dropped from about 26 minutes to 22:56 and my marathon went from 5:15 to 4:18. I’ve hung up my distance running, and I’m concentrating on Pole Vault now, and the sprint training for that is just as different from what I learned when I was a teenager.
I think you mean 80/20 running by Matt Fitzgerald, not Matt McMillan. Good luck with your pole vaulting, that's amazing at 61!
@@owen-trombone you are correct, I will edit my post. It was Matt Fitzgerald.
look up hill sprints for a great add
Salute to u for doing it at this age..
80/20 is almost a universal law that you find in every industry for various things
Norway has been low key great in endurance sports. It's just usually focused on cross country skiing - but every so often somebody chooses a different sport and we get a random marathon runner, cyclist, or whatever making waves
Even a 400m sprinter with Ingvaldsen who broke the Norwegian national record this year at the World Championships which was previously held by Karsten Warholm (you know that 400m hurdles record holder guy;).
That's actually true. Cross country skiing is an insane endurance sport.
When i ran interval training was very hard, much harder than today. But no one understood the concept of adaptation, basically that the gains do not come during the training but in the rest between training when your body adapts to the greater stress. Just knowing that and a heart rate monitor can get you very far. But now you add in lactate, VO2 Max, and sleeping devices to measure how well your body reacts to the training and you can completely control your training without breaking down. When i ran it was Russian Roulette, you trained as hard as you could and hoped you missed the bullet in the chamber(breaking down). Now you can predict that long before it happens. My performances took off when i learned that you should always have a little left at the end of a workout, or even a race. Even though it was a small amount, the psychological advantage of always knowing you would finish strong because you had more in reserve than the other guy made a big difference in my confidence.
".. you should always have a little left at the end of a workout..." this
@@Postermaestro My workouts are often biking to work, and I want to not be exhausted starting working, and therefore usually have a little left :)
@@erlendsteren9466 i feel like the way I realized it was by just making the workouts a bit easier such that I wouldn't dread them. Turns out it also made for better improvements. Now this doesn't mean the workout is easy, it's just not pushing it to that absolute end limit like during a race
@@Postermaestro A smart way to work! I believe that sustainable training is the way to go, and when I say sustainable I mean preservering the fun and avoiding injuries and illness which might come fast if we push to hard.
@@erlendsteren9466 agreed!
I've been enjoying your videos a lot, Göran-it's not just your 'content', it's your demeanor which is very honest and hospitable. Cheers from South Australia 🦘🦘
I’ve been doing treadmill repeats and tempo intervals on the treadmill about 3 months. I hated it at first and then started enjoying it just like yourself. It’s definitely increased my top end work speed and endurance and helped take some impact out of the joints. I’ve also noticed you have to have better form on the treadmill at those top speeds, but maybe that’s just anecdotal to my experience. Thanks for another great video, Goran! Still my favorite UA-cam channel.
This makes sense. I ran at my best in Dubai when doing long runs was only possible on the treadmill. My 10km got down to a 32min. For me a lifetime best. When I moved back to Australia, i was doimg hard hill intervals. Also made me srrong but I was no where near as fast. I lacked the treadmill. That is the secret, plus chilling out and not pushing myself like a racehorse. Great video. Thank you.
With so many videos talking about ‘running slow to run fast’ it’s refreshing to hear of some actually successful training techniques that involve ‘running faster’! I ran slow for the last 15 years, lots of mileage all slowly. I then started training doing tempo and threshold sessions and just smashed my marathon and half marathon PB. As you state, it’s all about the right balance of ‘fast and slow’ + ability to recover that gets results - there aren’t any cheat mode or short cuts!
P.s. - treadmills are torture!
Yeah... Run slow to run fast. 😂 Every big UA-cam channel makes 10 versions of this every month as if it's some sort of a new revelation and there are people who would punch you if you tell them only running slow will never make you fast. 😂
i didnt watch the video yet. ive been doing great progress just by running fast, 90 second reduction in my 1 mile time in 2 months. I've been doing maybe 4 vo2max workouts for every 1 slow workout. Not saying my training makes any sense. I think we should have enough slow workouts to get rid of the lactic acid build up from fast workouts (which is something I'm not doing). I don't know how many slow workouts we should have to make this happen, but I Guess something like 1 hard workouts for every 2-3 slow workouts might just achieve this goal (of flushing the lactic acid).
@@pupper5580 Nice. Could you please share some details about your training history? Like how long you've been running and what's been your cumulative mileage over the years and what are your current PBs. Also age if you don't mind.
Interesting insight! Im new to running and saw a lot of this run slow to run faster too.
@@samuelhybrid When you're new, running slow is probably a good idea, you need to build strength and stability without getting injured. Don't rush into it. :)
Thx to your advice I’ve been trying to run almost every day at a lower easy effort with all my speed sessions up hills, It has helped me so much with avoiding injury and slowly getting faster.
Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.
Marius Bakken is a fucking hero to be so systematic and scientific in his approach, so early before everyone else. There was so many coaches just doing what they always done, and then a young runner comes along and research this in such a systematic way, while also being one of the best runners in Europe AND studying to be a doctor. Fucking epic.
I like the Norwegian model and support all the comments. I have a few thoughts of my own regarding the requirements to have a top endurance running country:
1. General ethnic genetics should be strong and athletic. The old Norse and Germanic warriors were strong. The East and West Africans are also known for their physical strength, speed and endurance. In contrast a country like India and China has a population of more than a Billion people each and almost no top runners.
2. Generally speaking altitude born runners have an advantage - Kenya, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Uganda, Morocco, South Africa. However there are altitude living people who do not run well - Peru / Bolivia etc. The East Africans are blessed to have latitude and altitude with relative mild winters.
3. Cold countries must be socia-economically strong to accommodate for winter training. Lesotho for example has the potential to deliver world class runners but the winters are just to harsh and winter training facilities non-existent.
4. Countries with fanatic sport status like football and rugby do not have many top runners. Athletic individuals are sucked into these sports and all funding and prestige goes to the super sport. Latin america football, South African rugby etc…
5. Countries with bad eating habits are at a disadvantage. The USA is a good example. The opposite is true for the Scandinavian countries.
6. Thereafter, the principles of consistent scientific training from a relative young age is important. Cross country is king. Off road trails are important. Over racing should be avoided. Annual increases of total weekly mileage should be calculated. Running specific strength and plyometric training should be included .
Sub stress fracture intensity is different between individuals. (Foot strike, foot anatomy, weight etc). Each individual max long term intensity should be determined. Some runners are Toyota’s and some are Land Rovers.
I like the regular inclusion of lactic threshold training. Johan Cronje bronze 1500m World
Champs and Zola Budd used to do 3-4, 4km time trials per week. Friday for example had a morning and afternoon 4km.
I think treadmill training should only be included in emotional/psych ready elite individuals. There is a risk of boredom / frustration.
Despite many things, I think the Kenyan and Ethiopian models remain the gold standard. They have 1000’s of individuals who have run at the top. Their volume of runners over 40 years remain staggering.
I feel China has what could be some world class runners if using the right people but they are forced to go through the government program that does more harm then good basically only looking for legal cheating loopholes like microdosing to the max you can on drugs like EPO and Steroids at the same time yet not get busted in tests, coming up with excuses for cheating like they have for the swimmers in 2021, or using drugs in the 1990's but never allowing runners to run outside the country so they could cheat using old Drug Testing laws of the era as runners who have escaped China have admitted to being forced to use by the main track coaches/sports doctors who were East German and ex USSR Russia hired right after the fall of the communism as these cheaters were now looking for new jobs.
You’ll never convince me to get on a treadmill, no matter how logical your arguments are 😂
EDIT: guys relax - nothing wrong with treadmills. I just like to be in the outdoors and listen to the birds when I run. I'm fortunate to live in an environment where the weather is good for running all year round.
😂
Uhhmm, yeah. Before you reject the treadmill outright, just try it for 1 month. Maybe that will get you used to it and convince you to try it.
Training on a treadmill isn't running though, it's jumping up and down on the spot.
I like to run barefoot on the treadmill sometimes, but of course running barefoot in freshly cut grass is much much more enjoyable 😊
@@ashleyhouse9690it doesn’t matter. What matters are the results. If a treadmill gets you faster, it’s better than running.
Living/Coaching/Training in Boulder Colorado during the 90s I watched the Kenyans/Africans doing these workouts over and over. 5 - 10 repeats x 1 mile at around 4:30 pace with 1 min recovery was a standard, which was at or just below threshold. Hence so much damn success on the roads/track. I always encouraged the treadmill to keep an athlete off the pavement to save the legs while working on leg speed. Seems logical.
Pretty delusional to attribute successes of African runners in the 90s to their superior training methods over Western runners.. but hey I guess it's the fashion now
Veronik Bilat : a sports physiologist in France was a pioneer in this type of training and at a Running camp at Peperdine University in 2001 we did Lactate monitoring during and after a 3000 meter test run.
To find out best Running speed for training and where you're at in you're fitness !
Veronik spoke on this type of training during the week long camp and has written many articles about this and was training African runners for marathons.
Veronique Billat''s approach was not at all about threshold training. Her training philosophy was workouts at a much higher intensity _30 secs at VO2 max pace (i.e. 3k pace approx)/30 secs jog at VO2 max pace, 4 mins efforts at V02 pace etc. Slower running days to recover. Basically Billat was about polarized training slow running and VO2 max workouts with not much else in between. A totally different approach basically.
This is awesome information! Thank you so much for all of your digging into this!
Glad it is helpful!
Contnue with running until you are at least 90 years old. I wanna see that. Tack för dina videor och lycka till i fortsättningen.
Haha I will try, tack! 😊
I already tried running till I was 90. It didn't work. I ran too many races, died of an enlarged heart. But I think I know where I messed up. Now I'm ready to try again.
To answer your obvious question: Yes, I have since reincarnated. Duh!
@@runcaz7802Did you run out of the crematorium because it was getting too hot?😂
@@okantichrist It was locked, couldn't get out.
I'm 106. 🤗 Still running.
I looked at World Athletics, and Norway has 0.97% of the all time toplist for the 1500 even though they only have 0.06% of the world's population. They also have 0.93% of the mile list, 1.13% of the 2000m list, 1.51% of the 3000m list, and 1.7% of the 2 mile list. That's crazy. I guess science-based training works. What a surprise lol
Any way to see how all those percentages change, if you set aside Superfreak Ingebriktsen? Even if he was a country all to himself, that would be a formidable country in middle distance running. Prior to him, I've never really thought of Norway as a major running country. Skiing, yes. But running?
It doesn’t hurt that it’s an extremely wealthy nation. I’d be more surprised if a poor country had bucked the statistics in the same way, and I wonder whether you’ve compared Norway’s level with comparable first world countries?
Would like to see the comparison against runners from other nations since not all nations are equally represented via total population. The other issue is some nations tend to focus on certain sports over others. E.G. you tend to see the Jamaicans in sprint events.
Now look at skiing and cycling. Overall the only competition is kenya
@@hutchmusician some wintersports sure. but money to do well in running?
Thanks Goran. As runner and an MD, I can not read Bakken's notes. They are all over the place. I am really curious to look at the data myself but it really needs a re-organization and re-write badly. I am so appreciative that Bakken did this, however. Wonderfully insightful foresight.
Maybe actually write it as a paper and get it peer reviewed? Someone should do it, at least for the guy 's effort
Excellent video! thanks from Brazil! keep going!
Swimming has been doing high volume threshold training for years. John Urbancheck was devolving a system for it in the 80s. Cool to see it in other sports
Hard to injure yourself swimming
@@MirkyMan Repeated movements can cause injuries regardless of the sport. Neck, shoulders, back and knee injuries are common among swimmers. You can also drown or have Swimming-Induced Pulmonary Edema in a triathlon or in an open water race.
Urbancheck’s color system has been a game changer for so many programs. May he rest in peace
Thanks for the video. I just did 2 exercise on last sunday. One in the morning and one in the late afternoon. Running on the track is my "thing" now
Marius helped me get p.b.s at the marathon and half marathon at age 49 And 50 and this was after starting running at 33 years old!
your camera presence is so underrated
Wow! I loved this video. I cannot run due to a motorcycle accident but was a bicycle racer and junior coach many years ago. I am now 67 years old and still like the idea of well planned training using a heart rate monitor, intervals, rest/recovery and so on. I had a huge increase in speed the last year being able to drop my cycling group at will as a solo rider. The difference was adding swimming in the morning, including interval training dispersed through the routine.
I did not really know why I got so much faster on the bike as even young riders could not stay with me. Now I think I understand what happened. Thanks for this video
Great insights, Göran! The Norwegian Method's scientific approach and emphasis on controlled threshold training are game-changers for endurance athletes. Thanks for breaking it down. 🌟🏃♂ #EnduranceTraining #NorwegianMethod #OaxSport
This unexpected genre of good video and the wonderful knowledge presented in it is the confirming reason why I like UA-cam than many other open source information platforms.
Glad to hear!
Great video. I don’t even run but this was an awesome watch with quality information!
L. Véronique Billat papers Interval training for performance went in a similar direction around the 2000. A lot of the work focuses around how much volume you can endure with certain intensity and rest intervals and how to maintain certain threshold levels. While those review papers are highly international, including the norwegens, the knowledge was used a lot in French, German cycling and triathlon training.
Yeah the treadmill is perfect for keeping those intervalls consistant and once programmed you can just turn off the head and keep running. But i prefer doing them outdoors. I have a nice park nearby so i do them from one bench to the next. Not scientific but really enjoyable and does the job for me.
Some jerk made a comment about your teeth. Your teeth are fine. Nobody but that guy cares. Thank you for this content
My understanding is that treadmill running can increase the risk of a stress fracture because you hit the ground in nearly the same way every time. The variance in footing outside on the other hand distributed the load a bit.
Always look forward to your videos. Thank you.
Great video! If you're interested in more history on why this testing and training method works well, watch anything by Dr Joe Vigil or pick up his book, road to the top. Vigil pioneered this style of testing and training in the 70s while head coach of Adams State. They won something like 15 national titles in a row, and Vigil went on to train more medalists from the 70s-early 2000s than any other American coach.
"dominating the sport at the time" is wild bro
Thanks for doing this in English! Great video 🏆
If I am not mistaken Norwegians also dominate cross-country skiing and really good in biathlon. Both are endurance sports more than anything else. Unfortunately, the majority of their athletes suffer from asthma and have to use inhalers. All are approved by IOC. Imagine how good they could’ve been if they were completely healthy. They would be impossible to defeat.
There's people that argue the "Asma Wide spread problem" is also a cheat code for dopping.
If they were healty they would not win any competion. "Asthma" is just hoax to take "legal" doping that increase lung efficiency.
In the Texas summer months, treadmill training is superior to outside. I’ve done it both ways and there’s no question that treadmill training is much more effective.
I agree for time of year and certain weather but isnt it easier than running outside?
@@pete5691 No. it’s not easier. I think it’ harder. Especially longer runs. I use a power meter and can adjust it based on lack of wind resistance to make it same effort as outside. I also set my TM to 0.5%. TM is especially helpful at controlling intensity during intervals and longer tempo runs. TM can get very uncomfortable with longer runs tho. My room will heat up, even with AC and fans. If you do it in a gym, it’s less of a problem. But there’s no air movement to cool off.
I think people think the TM is easier because they go by the pace on the TM. That’s usually not accurate. It’s much better to use a foot pod on a TM.
the heat
I had a guess before you mentioned any research.
Stephen Seiler is on this train for sure. I've done parts of his research as a hobby basic person just maintaining some form of fitness.
My quick annecdoete based on him and a few others. Do 80% of training at zone 2 or less. for me at 40 years old, ok shape. 140 heart rate and low exertion. It should feel pretty easy. Light duty. Some time at medium high and some at high high all out for short periods. Interval HIIT. It is so easy to recover and do it again and again. Then pro's who are dedicated and not working full time jobs, can do this multiple times a day. To some extent and focus. Cold therapy and hot therapy is very good for me for recovery. I barely feel stress and strain in my muscles. But progress is made in time and quantity of weights to lift.
Interesting topic for those of us who like to learn and recognize the human wonder that is certainly part of the indivisible environment that surrounds us and how various factors play a role to a greater or lesser extent depending on their temporal and spatial situation.
Without a doubt, measurement has been and will be in the scientific spotlight, however today it is more necessary than ever to take a broader look that involves those elements that could be left out and that play a role as important as that of lactate.
Thank you for generating this type of content. greetings from Chile
Really interesting video - thanks! Do you have a view on the application of double threshold days for cycling (e.g. for a 20km cycle within a sprint triathlon)? Best wishes from the UK 😁
The fastest I've been was when I accidentally did something like this by run commuting to work. I also had unintentional intervals built in due to traffic lights. I had only ever run HM distances at that point but my fastest 5K is still from that era. I now run marathons and I'm probably fitter but not as fast at the sub-threshold paces these days.
Graeme Orbree trained exactly this way in the 90s for his pursuit world titles, his reckoning was that each round was a race effort there were two of these per day for the two day event
He trained at race speed or dead slow recovery nothing in between
He was also quite the character, but people are so very different physically, but also mentally. What works to get one person to give it their all, might not work for others. :)
"..He trained at race speed or dead slow recovery nothing in between" so not like this way
Outstanding as usual Goran, can't say thank you enough! Take care mate, run safe.
Marius bakken always says, that you can train at race pace and Get as Mechanicly efficient as you want, but in the end you will always be Limited by the things happening inside your body like enzymes and stuff. So trainig much at threshold and increasing threshold speed is the biggest factor for distance runners. This prossess also takes a lot longer time than race prepping, where you mabye need like 10 sessions to Get ready.
I’ve got Young kids so I love the treadmill at the Gym! early mornings or late at night so good 👌
Nice video! Sweet Spot training is an excellent way to build capacity without taxing the ability to recover. Interval sweet spot training to teach close to race pace with greater volume is a really smart approach
Very nice video 👍appreciate the extra effort with editing and graphics.
I have been using a polarized training program on the bike and have never been happier.
Awesome video! I just subscribed too! Love your approach to making videos. Currently I have been obsessed with learning about Jakobs life and training. Look forward to more of your training videos
Fascinating research, obviously there is something important going on here. My question is, as a senior (68 years old) has there been any research work on how 'older athletes' can adopt a structured training program to 1. improve their long-term health while enjoying more competitive sports, 2. stay injury-free as our bodies change with age. You, me, we all are getting older. Training can still be fun if we could do it better (than just being an "old gym rat").
General strength training with "heavy weight" is the general recommendation. Ofc keeping prior injuries in mind.
Be careful with intervals... More distance, less speed work
@@growtocycle6992 sounds like an even stronger emphasis on building/strengthing the aerobic base. Thanks
@@growtocycle6992 Are you sure about that? Traditional wisdom has it that strength, coordination, ligaments, flexibility and muscle mass, all decline more rapidly than endurance, with age. Hence require more attention, in order to slow aging related decay.
@@paulnorman8274 the issue is avoiding injury and also it's based on the knowledge that there are world class ultra marathon runners in their 50s/60s.... Short distance is out of the question at this age
I just started the 4X4 regime. It’s brutal lol.
Your advice is always helpful
Glad you think so!
Yet another superb video! Many thanks! :)
Did you listen to the last episode of "I det lange løp" with Marius Bakken? Some good stuff in there about adapting the method to marathon training 🙃
Yes I did, yeah for sure, always interesting listening to Marius!
Any chance you could give us a rehash in a dedicated episode, about how to adapt this to training for the half and full marathon, please and thank you@@goranwinblad ? :) Also, a quick question: without using a dedicated lactate measuring device, but instead relying on the likes of Garmin and their algorithms, what % under the lactate threshold should we assume when starting double treshhold training? i.e. How far below the "reported" LT should we be, ideally? Thank you again for your amazing and super insightful content - sincerely appreciated.
Some nuance: this is athletes chasing performance. Train smart. Yes, in order to not get injured. But I would rather say: train fun. Sport is for fun! Performance could be fun, and what is fun depends on the person. For me, the treadmill for performance is not worth it.
And why would you do sports if it’s not for performance? Or for health and fitness gains?
If folks wanted fun , what could be more enjoyable than would just spend all day on the sofa snacking with a game console or tv.
Sports are PAINFUL and STRESSFUL activities, and I question the sanity of anyone do it for fun.
If you’re going to be doing sports, it can only be for the purpose of a performance metric. So, isn’t it logical to choose the most efficient method to get there?
@@slowcyclist4324because in the long term things that are hard are more “fun” than things that are easy.
@@slowcyclist4324Agreed. This is about performance. Winning is fun but it takes hard work to win.
@@slowcyclist4324 absolutely deranged take
@@slowcyclist4324I think you would benefit tremendously from reading the book RUN by Matt Fitzgerald. It talks about how some of the worlds best runners (of their time) because this book is a little dated, would run by feel and would run based on fun and enjoyment of the run, which allowed them to not only run BETTER But also for more years than other athletes that didn’t enjoy their workouts and burnt out!
I love how these scientists come up with such interesting training modalities and strategies.
It is always wild to me when a country like China has a vastly different training modality for something like weightlifting that works out and the immediate response by the west is "doping!" even though they are most tested athletes.
I just want the same standards and praise applied for how cool this stuff is.
I’ve been using a pulse oximeter since 2016 to manage threshold. What’s funny is your blood oxygen and heartrate are not directly linear and there is a pronounced sweet spot where backing off slightly until your index recovers into the 90s which allow significantly more capacity to run longer. Lactate system is anaerobic and the body is incredibly efficient when you train the system that uses oxygen transport most efficiently
Fantastic Gorman the info is spot on 👌🏾
these ideas are key in rowing, and have been in rowing for a long time.
In swimming, too.
Where can we get more information about this method of training?
Hello, it is interesting to hear that long sweetspot sessions (slightly below 4mmol) are beneficial for runners. But do you know how does it translates for cyclists where 80:20 is popular? Essencially, interval session in or above treshold?
I was going to ask same question. gave me the idea of twice a day workout just under threshold or low sweetspot might work.
Lol as a 5x marathoner who basically mostly trains on a treadmill this makes me happy. I was right! Lmao
Great video info. Ill try the intervals at less intensity now. Thx
I've also read that blogpost. It's very interesting, to say the least. I thought one interesting thing worth noticing was that Jakob Ingebriktsen's dad seems to be claiming he didn't learn anything from Bakken. But Marius posted a lot of emails between them that showed how Ingebriktsen was totally trying to learn from Bakken. Now he seems to want to take all the glory for himself.
I don't think Bakken said his sweet spot for the interval was significantly below his LT, I think what he meant was that his LT (and a lot of elite athletes) actually was lower than the 4mmol/l that is generally thought of as where the LT is.
A good video about the topic. Thank you!
Hey Göran, as a new runner in a cold area of the world what would you say is needed gear wise to have fun jogging throught the autmn and winter?
Use light wind-braking pants and jackets, and you're fine. When it's below zero C degees I use sports wool underwear, over zero I use different technical underwear. Wool socks are used from 6-7 degrees C. When raining and cold, I have a light gore-tex jacket.
Pyramid intervals:
Warm up 30 min
1 min on
1 min off
2 min on
1 min off
3 min on
1 min off
3 min on
1 min off
2 min on
1 min off
1 min on
1 min off
Rest 10 mins and repeat 2 more times. Cool down for 30. Minutes on are in zone 3 or 4. Minutes off are in zone 1. Warmup and cool down zone 1 or 2.
Ingebrigsten endurance training was amazing in the Paris 1500 metre final when not one, not two but three athletes all ran past him in the final 100 metres.
Did you watch the 5k? ......
@@Lewythefly I did, it was a very weak field. Mo Farah in his prime, just like the 1500 metre guys have worked him out, would have creamed him with his race tactics over 5K and a proper sprint finish not his plodding final 200.
@@neilboulton9813 Ingebrigsten recently broke a long standing WR in the 3,000m. Actually, he smashed it!
Amazing Goran as always great vlog
Glad you enjoyed it
Thank you for the video I like your critical thinking on 'not as important if non-pros go over their lactate threads-hold since you don't train the same volumes and typically have longer rests'.
On the same note, I think that you should keep running outdoors if you enjoy it unless you're going for medals. Sell the treadmill ^.^
People start to realize that volume beats the american movie style all out workouts. This is too complicated for regular peaople, but the idea is push yourself as much as possible while making sure you can repeat the next day.
Vad trevligt!
Weather Is Always good for running year-round!😅
Thank you!
I've read on several running forums that Norwegian proxy for the lactate meter is 85% of max HR. Is this true? As I understood it, the idea is that 85% MHR is conservative approach, providing cushion so that you avoid drifting past threshold rate which is generally anywhere from 88-92% of MHR depending on how highly trained the runner is.
Yes, by running slightly slower, you can do double the volume of training. It always has to be smart training though.
It's nothing new, it's been done for decades, but Jakob Ingebrigtsen is the best in the world, so his training gets lots of interest.
@@jono1457-qd9ft thanks but I was asking specifically about the 85% of MHR as proxy for lactate threshold.
Thank you
You're welcome, thanks for watching!
So i've been doing double threshold with out looking into any of this stuff, i just felt i was making better gains doing 2 easier sessions than 1 intense one.
Running to work, and back, may just be the best approximation of elite training available, to us mere mortals....
Manga tussen tack! Some great training advice.
I'm pretty sure many have done this; I remember reading that Kenyans trained this way back in the 80's/90's.
Hej Hej Göran! You inspired me to pick up running agin after a long time with this video! Thank you! - Is the 4x4 intervalls a "sub method" of performing the lactate threshold trainging?
I read Marius's paper and searched online but some experts call the 4x4 method the norwegian method... but doesn't the 4x4 train way past the lactate threshold?
As far as the treadmill is concerned i have yet to see one that can do speed workouts. When they make one that can handle 25 second 200 meters let me know. Also the best thing for form is to have someone film you on a cinder track and then on an artificial surface. Then watch it in slow motion. On an uneven surface you learn to maximize your efficiency in foot placement, body lean etc. On an artificial surface your foot does not slide like it does on a cinder or dirt surface. You want to get your weight over your foot at an optimum efficient angle in respect to your body. It is hard to explain without showing but for instance if you overstride on dirt you slide a few inches because your foot is reaching. A treadmill will not give you optimum feedback because of the rollers and suspension.
Yeah the treadmill can't do everything. I never use them these days but have in the past, most recently as last year but I walked/jogged on it backwards for knee rehab training which I learned from Knees Over Toes Guy. Anyway it should only be a supplement to reg training. I love running on grass and dirt myself because it makes me stronger and running on a track is a piece of cake after. I haven't been on a cinder track I don't think but the track I ran on as a kid is just small rocks, gravel and some dirt anyway (might have to go back there lol).
So aptly to watch this video a few days after Jakob Ingebrigtsen's world record in Chorzow.
Thx. Wonder a bit how their weeks look like and if every week is more less the same.
Could you elaborate on that?
Great video bro
Thanks!
Norway has a few good distance swimmers but they haven't shown any speed under 400m. You would think there would be knock on success in the middle distance events - 200 & 400m. Their mens national team record in the 4x200 is slower than junior age club teams from Canada (UCSC) & USA (Lakeside)
Norway looses alot of atletes to skiing etc. Look at the winter olympic medals, it is not too bad i think.
Folks seem to have the impression that wealth might be an important parameter here. In my opinion it is much more related to tradition, history and behavior if we try to view this through a sosiologic lens. Norwegians are outdoor a lot in general, and many have (or have access) to a cabin usually a couple of hours drive away. This lifestyle sort of is ingrained in the common way of living going wayyyy back, and this was originally to have an opportunity for simple but low cost family leisure normally either for weekends and holidays. Because back then an abroad travel for the holidays was viewed upon as very costly and luxurious, something you do rarely except for special occassions.
This tradition is very well alive and kicking today, even if the standard of many cabins has a much higher standard today as a concequence of the rize in income and/or GDP. So both the normality of this way of living as well as the easy availability to nature and outdoor activities (and sports) is in my opinion a much better explanaition for the norwegian way of results, and maybe physical health in general. I would even question that if significant personal wealth creates winners in this matter. Good health maybe, due to access to better food and health services, but rarely for the creation of world top long distance runners (or skiers). But I agree for the average norwegian middleclass, it probably does not hurt;-)
Except for the latter, all I can add to this little discussion is that norwegians drink the second most coffee in the world, after the swedes sorry to say, but again, that probably does not hurt either......Regards (average norwegian couch potato)
Norway also has the best chess player in history, Magnus Carlsen. He was world champion for ten years and stepped down voluntarily a couple of years ago because he got bored preparing for mandatory title matches all the time. Now he just plays when he wants to. Norwegians have mad skills at everything is my conclusion.
Goran - some comments. I also am non norwegian , living Norway, ran sub30 10K in the 90's, and have seen a lot of good people train. I read MB's article, and honestly a lot of it is not so new. But what is , is the intense use of blood lactate testing over heart rate, as you can keep the workouts down intensiry to have the massive volume of work, the double sessions, and not get absolutely trashed. but hard enough to still improve. Otherwise the training is not so different to Kenyan workouts with lots of mid intensity volume multi pace intevals and so on.
Two negative comments - I think the treadmill stuff is wrong. The problem with treadmills is that running on them is a trick to an extent... try and outdoor mile or 800, then try to run one indoors - once you trick how you run, you'll be seconds faster for no more effort.
The other issue the Ingebrigtsens suffer is that they're tactically naive. I recall when Henrik emerged he appearedvery strong, but always in races was tactically badly placed, and they've never really improved that - championship racing needs tactics as well as strengh, else you just fall prey to 'sit and kick'.
Good luck!
What's the Norwegian method, having a family where the oldest is the worst runner, but still very good, the middle one is a little better, and the youngest is the best? The only Norwegian runner who is a cut above is Jakob, and he trained with his European champion and Olympian brothers every day for 10 years before he even reached high school age. His success has very little to do with measuring his blood lactate level or threshold training, I assure you of that. If someone is born into an Olympic-tier team that they get to compete with from the time they're very young and they'll turn out as incredible runners. It's the same as if you're born into a family with a chess grandmaster for a father, the odds are, you will be raised to be a very good chess player.
Good video.
Interestingly, this training approach seems to correspond with current research about strength training. The best way to gain muscles is having a high volume of sets (30-50 sets a week). The individual number of repetitions within the set don't matter that much and can be somewhere between 8 and 35, as long as a set is close to failure. And similar to the endurance training not being running at all out pace in order to run more, in strength training not training to full failure every set but leaving 1-3 repetitions "in the tank" seems to be better as you won't have as much systemic fatigue and you can do more sets per week, thus more overall volume. I wonder whether there are similar mechanics in training your brain (i.e. when learning a new language or cognitive skill) than can be applied as I feel there are also a lot of similarities between learning and physical training.
I have a question regarding speed. My best 400 was around 52 while training for 8000 meter race. How would one develop a young runners speed for races like the 1500? Do improvements in lactate tolerance and aerobic capacity improve speed as well indirectly?
I’m am just a hs athlete, so this prolly won’t even be helpful, but I don’t think that aerobic will help, but the lactate tolerance might have a decent effect, especially for the shorter distance races that call for more anaerobic stress.
What lactate testing kit is that? How much is it ? Do you have any recommendations for getting one ?
Have you ever considered how Beta-alanine play into this as it increases lactate threshold? Maybe not relevant for longer distance, but studies show significant improvements in intensities around 60 sec mark. Dunno if it will help or transfer unto 1500m for example, but maybe it will help on the sprint part?
I use a treadmill but do not run. I do 4 mph at 12 degrees for about 2.6 miles. Good exercise for a person whose knees can’t take running.
Helpful
Grazie
This is great and a lot of footballers looking to improve their cardio base would benefit from seeing this nice summary, keep up the great work! I’ll be sharing training and physio videos weekly feel free to check it out if you’re interested!
@5:40 into this video and still no description of 2 treshold training days. What are those tresholds? Some personal lactate numbers to train at? Are these (running) sessions at higher or lower speeds wtr targeted competitive speed?
For 99% of runners out there the secret is one and only. Get out the door and Run EASY and CONSISTENTLY.
Its easy to measure anything. The art is to know when to do what how hard.
Double threshold day is misleading. There are 2 thresholds LT1 and LT2. The first is above LT2 the other below LT1. Basically a fancy new name for polarization.
Standardization has no special physical adaptation advantage. It's advantage is organizational because you can track what training has which effect by knowing what you exactly did and what you are going to do.
I believe Hunter McIntyre (hyrox world record holder) uses the norwegian training method principles a lot