Jared Diamond: How societies can grow old better
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- Опубліковано 20 вер 2024
- There's an irony behind the latest efforts to extend human life: It's no picnic to be an old person in a youth-oriented society. Older people can become isolated, lacking meaningful work and low on funds. In this intriguing talk, Jared Diamond looks at how many different societies treat their elders -- some better, some worse -- and suggests we all take advantage of mature experience.
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Thank you for shareing your extensive works with us Mr. Diamond.
It's a good talk, but I heard very few answers to the problem being discussed. I also heard not so much about how older generations could help themselves to a small degree by allowing a certain openness towards modern society, instead of tending to shy from it (many do). That aspect is also extremely important. I do agree (being very close to someone who works in elderly care) that the quality of care is becoming worse and less of an important issue and this is due in significant part to the fact that nursing work conditions are becoming worse in some areas of the world. This is not good at all, however the converse reality is just not profitable, which is another good point Jared delivered. It is vital for older generations to never cease learning the world around them. In all of their golden experience (and it certainly is that) they must surely realize that societies modernize and there is no stopping this fact, therefore younger generations need to devise ways to help them (and they be willing themselves) to become acquainted with important developments and technologies. If you are in your teens and you have a grandparent in state-funded or similar elderly care then take a good interest in how they are treated and consider how this may degrade by the time you are sitting in those chairs yourself. Time is slippery.
I'm a huge fan of Jared Diamond.
Charles C Mann is so much better.
magister343 thanks for your view, I'm definitely giving his material a look now.
who isnt?
That face looked familiar... Hmmm so does that name...
OH! Its the writer of Guns, Germs and Steel! (great book about why the west is in control while other parts of the world lagged/are lagging behind - a must read! or must watch)
I had the exact same mental process when clicking this video :D
Also the author of "Why Sex Is Fun?" which is really interesting as well. I remember the first time I heard of the above-mentioned trilogy: an astronomist I admire was asked for summer reading tips in a science magazine and jokingly described Diamond's trilogy along the lines of "You're not allowed to say anything about anything unless you've read these three books." :)
This is so inspiring, it reminds us that success does not always spring from charisma.
Young People have more energy while Old People know how to use their limited energy for the better
I call my elders for everything. I know I can possibly google it but I’d still rather hear it from my aunt or grandma. That could just be me though.
A very insightful and thought-provoking TED Talk :)
I got nothing from this talk except interesting points in history. All of his examples of how old people are better than young people are circumstantial and for the most part, just plain untrue. Setting ego aside?? Being objective?? Are we talking about the same old people here? In this sense, I'm not saying that all young people are better at these things, I'm saying that it's entirely circumstantial. It depends on how the individual raised themselves, moreso than their age. Also, how does a subset of people experiencing the great depression help us avoid another one? What happens when all of the people who've experienced the great depression die? Are we going to instantly fall into another? Of course not! We capture these periods as actual history. Not recycled stories where the features change every time they are told.
Grandparent child care, in our experience, is amazing. Our children have the most unique life experiences being cared for five days a week by their Grandpa. Most kids in North America don't have the same benefit.
SOCIREEEEEEEEEEDY
Everybody has read his book, "Guns, Germs and Steel," but he has also written the great books: "Collapse" and "The Third Chimpanzee." These latter two seem to get less publicity, but I suggest that you read these books, for they are excellent.
Interesting talk.
I'm only 27 and already one of my biggest fears is ending up in a retirement home.
Hope that by the time you reach that age, human euthanasia will be legal. Or rather, fight for that right!
I hope that if I'm old and things get too bad, I can simply request a doctor to off me, if I can't do it myself.
The tv remote isnt complicated and isnt hard to understand, it is the elderlies lack of interest in the device (not that I can blame them) that makes it hard form them to learn and use the "new" device.
To be old better societics,we should previously ask ourself.Because every society has something to learn from each other.
loved it! ageism is a serious problem,especially in advertising!I find particularly disturbing the ads which show almost always a young person(who is usually underaged) as the face for a specific brand(starting from Zara and ending with Coca Cola).The thing is they focus on young people because they are considered to have the strongest power to buy products of any kind.Parents should take a stand and start to discipline their kids and not to give into every wish,starting from nike schoes to iPads because "everyone in the class has one and I have to have it".Adults make the rules and adults make decisions,so you d better start making new ones,because I already see the generation that comes after me and man,it s not looking good at all!
This man is one of the best human beings alive.
Jared Diamond on TED 2008: Why Societies Collapse
Jared Diamond on TED 2013: How Societies Can Grow Old Better
Jared Diamond on TED 2020: You Should Have Listened To Me
All cultures and societies have something to learn from each other
Another great talk from TED. What accent is this? I figure its American but where from?
I disagree with the reason he states that hospitals prioritize the young when resources are limited. my understanding is the real reason is because younger patients are more likely to survive a major surgery.
Lewis Townsend what he forgot to say is that he’s assuming this is controlled, i.e. factored in (also known as “all things being equal”). if 2 people have an equal chance of living for ten years from surgery, but resources would inly allow one to get it, we give the surgery to the younger one because we value youth as opposed to experience.
7:17
I agree that down prioritizing the elderly with respect to healthcare seems cruel. But as he himself said its a case of limited resources and he just justfied this (and much worse) for some traditional sociaties by the same argument.
Is it me, or does he look a bit like Abe Lincoln?
I imagine Abe Lincoln sounded something like this guy
What a legend
It's not about how societies can grow old better, it's about how people can grow old better in society.
I think this leads to the question, where will you be when you are old? And, how have you influenced the youth of today to be able to take care of you? 40-50 yrs from now you will be left behind in technological education. Your bones will not respond the way they do now. You will probably be sick. You have to ask, will the youth of tomorrow feel you have outlived YOUR usefulness?
+yvonne Dunlap
i will probably be like my womanizing grandpa,
the men of my family have a strong and long lasting potency,
How many times did he say traditional societies?
Sadly not all persons (young or old) have sought to cultivate or improve themselves, so IMHO a seniority-based system is not entirely advisable. I can think of quite a few petty complaining recluse elderly, as well as some seriously foolish youth, but at least the young have an excuse... On the other hand, there are some amazing elder persons who actively participate & contribute in their communities best they can & that is definite grounds for full-on respect! This is also true of some young community-oriented persons. So, if we wish to remain relevant to society, then perhaps we should take an active role of contribution as opposed to entitlement simply due to going gray. We can choose to stay active & informed to stay relevant; or at least that's my take on it.
This was just sad.. We can do better as humans towards our parents and elders..
What part of the US is he from? I like his accent. Is it Boston? Maine?
i don't know, it's been bothering the hell out of me :\
Boston, MA. So yeah, that's a New England accent. Like Mayor Quinby from The Simpsons.
I know of one elderly person in a beer add. The most interesting man in the world, in fact! :)
{How individuals within societies can grow old better}
I think Jared Diamond has some excellent points. To encapsulate: youth in the Western Culture do not take advantage of the resources in their own back yard, their parents. Coca Cola and beer ads are aimed at the young because biologically certain organs can only filter these beverages for a period of time.
Jared Diamond
Hasn't he noticed that the younger generation is NOT having kids? & doesn't he know that the average age of US politician is actually OLD... 60!
It pains me to hear Jared plead for the utility value of older people. Many of his arguments are a stretch to say the least.
The only reason why we should value and respect older people is because we want to become old one day ourselves. That's why we want to built a society that is capable of taking care of those that are performance wise redundant rather than forcefully trying to make every cog in the machine spin.
***** I think that attitude is as divisive as Jared's because it works both ways. It's once again trying to turn the whole thing into some form of contract.
I don't respect elderly in that manner. I'm not that impressed with the world they've put me in. Not in the slightest.
However, I don't need to be impressed in order to take care of them because I want to create a better world than they did. One that includes facilitation for them as well as other weaker groups.
***** I'm saying that simply having been on the planet before us is neither impressive or respectable. This was the century of growth, abundance and prosperity and look what they've done to the place.
There's a few elderly I greatly respect simply because they're awesome/brilliant, not because they're old. As for the vast majority, I'm disappointed. I truly am. There's hardly anything worth praising in what the babyboomers did to this planet.
And still, I won't begrudge them their care. Not because of their merits, but because they are human beings. Disappointing human beings.
***** That's another weird attitude. I don't need to be perfect in order to asses what other people have done. These people had all the abundance, they could've shaped this world into anything and they've chosen this. To demand respect for that is laughable. And then to imply that people need to be respected before they get access to a decent lifestyle is even more ridiculous.
***** That fatalistic and cynical view is exactly what repulses me about so many elderly. They're all a bunch of navel-gazers and I'll take great care never to become one of you.
Not all older people are like that. The problem with today's modern societies (I'm 30, btw, so not a senior) is that everything is based on an underlying notion of productivity. Everyone does not have a dollar value. Not every hour has to be spent networking or at otherwise being productive. Some of these elderly people are parents sacrificed heavily for a bunch of aloof, condescending and ungrateful children and it really makes me sick to the stomach to think of it, especially as the holidays come around.
Where is he from, can't place his accent?
Is this true about old people in America
If you have to choose who gets the organ, I think going with the younger person makes sense. They've had less time to live. An 18 year old versus a 70 year old? Shouldn't we give people a chance to have a little life? The productivity rationale may be practical, but it's kind of cold.
One of the most importat problems, is the number of elderly. in traditional societies living 70 years meant much more, because out of 100 people only one would live that long, so his abilities and experiences were quayet unique. but today the same thing might be right with some one who has lived 120 years or so.
other reason for elders (in my opinion) unfair treatment is, today medical facilities make it posible for people to be alive withought living. elderly are loved in traditional societies because they are valuable to them not because every one feels sory for them, but 7 of 10 ealderly I know have been hospitalized every other day, and have lived a (I asume ) painfull life not as a person but as a pasant! under heavy medications not to become healthy, but to live painfully while using the medication. I sure do not wish such future for my self.
MY MAN JD!
Many elderly are not good people. It makes a "respect the elderly" ethos absurd.
Many young people are not good people.
wisdomtoknow
No kidding, the point is, they grow up to be elderly and they don't magically become good people in the process.
My point is, that not all people are not good people. So respecting anyone based on age alone is not a good ethos.
But many older people are good people.
Jared Diamond's latest book, 'The World until Yesterday', as lucidly written and accessible as usual, deals in greater depth with the theme of his current talk.
In chapter 6 of the same book, he brings back the valuable lessons that he learned in the treatment of the elderly while studying the traditional Fijian society and shares it with his 'youth worshipping' society.He is doing the right thing.That is a real problem in the West.
However, it is also becoming a problem for those traditional societies that are now blindly copying everything from the West in their fast drive to 'open up and develop '. I am concerned with that mimicry. I am concerned with Ethiopia's aping in that regard.
It is not just that we are discarding or devaluing our senior citizens and the indispensable cultural values and wisdom residing in them.
We have also allowed that our wealth distribution mirror the inequalities of the West without even the mitigation of the Welfare State.
We are oblivious to the glaring fact that our Epidemiology while still showing the huge burden of infectious diseases, it is also exhibiting the increasing prevalence of metabolic disorders including the various Cancers particularly in our urban canters.
How are we to safeguard our well- being ?
There are more fundamental questions to ask.
What should be our idea of 'development'? When is it that we can rightly say we are growing economically?
What should we do in resisting the big Juggernaut of Market Economics and Globalization?
Aren't there any better ways to HUMANIZE OUR ECONOMIES and really FREE ( Amartya Sen's 'unfreedom' comes to mind) the poor?
How do we fight against our acculturation?
How do we again dignify the elderly and through them, connect with our living and vital past?
ok cool
Many old persons are incapable of being useful. They can't work, carry loads or perform as they did when they were young. Some are very sick. Some develop Alzheimer's or other types of dementia. It's a fact of life.
Are they worth less? I think not.
Unfortunately, modern societies consider these citizens as a burden. This view has been heard by many of the older generation and they now feel that they are unwanted. Some will even consider euthanasia if they become sick and dependant of others. What is the usefulness of the dependant elderly? They provide the opportunity for individuals, communities or societies to develop compassion. Today's societies are more a group of individuals than a community. They have forgotten how to share there abilities to help others or to give back to those who have helped them develop the skills to do so. The elderly are mainly non self sufficient and are dependant. Let's remind ourselves of the importance of giving without expecting to receive in turn. Or dependant members of our societies allow us to show compassion. The best use of all. I suggest to J. Diamond to look at societies that practice compassion. He might be surprised to see that all members, even the sickly dependant elderly, are useful to it's harmonious development.
"he might be surprised" ? what?
My text was cut. "He might be surprised to see how communities thrive harmoniously when practicing compassion toward the sick, the elderly, the dependant."
C TERIO
no, i read your comment intact.
Jared isn't going to be SURPRISED TO SEE those things because he already knows about them quite well. Here i'll link you to a video where he talks all about it:
watch?v=yPGwA7t6bpI
ps: IT'S THIS FUCKING VIDEO.
You may as well be saying that Jared would be surprised-to-see that his last name is Diamond. i mean wtf dude
You could play a good drinking game to this talk, Just drink every time he says “Soc,I,eties”
Yeah people who are this highly travelled tend to aquire neat accent combinations.
Amazing that a man with the confidence to wear a maroon blazer still can't let go of the combover...
"We older people are not fluent in the technologies essential for surviving in modern society." Over-generalization! Multitudes of older workers in high tech fields have been long conditioned to constantly re-learn changing technology at a blistering pace. They age yet remain quite fluent in tech. So, they can babysit the grandkids PLUS help them use their favorite tablet app!
For dry itchy eyes use clear eyes
the issue i see is that "older people" in tribal societies were 40ish rather then 80ish. the problem with taking advice from such a source should be obvious
Dos XX... granted, even though they have an older gentleman, he is not socializing and surrounded by young women
Some notes:
some societies kill their elderly - usually living in marginal societies (e.g., deserts) or nomadic (can’t bring them along)
other end of spectrum - elderly live in same house or nearby family, cared for and respected
two reasons for this variation
#1: usefulness of old people (produce food, care for children, produce goods, sources of knowledge and leadership)
#2: society’s values (Confucian doctrine of filial piety; US places low value on elderly, for example, hospitals have explicit policy of allocating limited resources to the young)
Why does US place such low value on the elderly?
-Protestant work ethic (elderly work less)
-American emphasis on self-reliance and independence
-Cult of youth (modern advertising)
People living longer; ratio of old:young increasing; a flatter world is leading to more distance between families
Elderly are less useful today due to widespread literacy, the Internet, technological requirements
Areas where they can be useful:
#1: primary caretakers for grandchildren, extended family
#2: sharing of unique experiences (e.g., experiencing Great Depression and World Wars)
#3: supervising, strategizing, teaching, synthesizing, devising long-term plans
More if you're interested
www.kevinhabits.com/ted/
He sounds like the smart gremlin from gremlins 2.
Google! Fix your youtube! And stop automatically sharing my comments to google+ you hippy
I enjoy the use of traditional. When you realize there are about 25-50 modern countries, and around 200 not modern, or traditional. He would be more accurate to say in the normal countries on the planet. Andy of Hobo Traveler com
*societies*
Why don't you take that experience you have gathered for over 60 years and use it to figure out how to change channel on your tv.. Coca Cola is targeting their ads against young people because old people have already made up their mind about the product.. And people move to different places because they want to, not because of old people (well sometimes old people are a pain and you move)
I know right, some of this guy's conclusions are really not very smart.
***** "..And people move to different places because they want to, not because of old people": Why do you make this statement? How is it relevant to what Jared Diamond actually says?
filosofoeduardo2 I can't remember why, i wrote that back in november.. I guess I'm getting old :)
Cough, cough, hack, spit. Sleep.
That constant chewing on hard candy was fairly distracting.
Ironically, I find this boring
He looks like an old Russell Crowe
mmmmmmmmmmmmmm nice
:)
you taught me nothing, all of this information was obvious and you offered nothing.
just like this comment.