Keith Edginton Yeah, if you think that leaving people in the dark is a good thing. If I am doing something wrong and someone has good advice, then I would appreciate hearing it. Obviously be respectful in delivering the advice. Even if a person is snarky and has sound advice, then I would like to hear it. There is a ton of info needed to learn on how to set up the perfect system, so I don't see how it's a bad thing to help people with some shortcuts on their journey.
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Wisdom, knowledge and patience. Is there any better virtues in any individual ? You could add his brilliant delivery too and then you could call it complete, which it is. Hats off to you Steve, few equals.
I spent 40 years or so being pissed that no matter what gear I bought my setup sounded, well to be polite, less than I thought it should... I was, again, ready to buy new speakers... but then I decided to experiment with acoustics, which I did using clothing, hoodies, sweaters and blankets... when my listening room looked like an exploded laundry hamper I decided it was time to design and make my own, real, stuff, which I did, ultimately doing up the room totally with absorption, diffusers, bass traps, window and door solutions and more... Then 3 days after deciding I was done... I decided I didn't like my speakers and they were the wrong style and I designed and built my own. Point I wanted to get to... it was a real pleasure this week when I moved the big homemade speakers into the treated room (they were developed in a different room, but that room is coooooold in winter) and was able to get fantastic sound with minimal effort vs spending months being frustrated and try try try again.... So instead of buying new speakers, I learned about acoustics, designed and built my own stuff and then designed built and refined my own speakers, all for less money and with fantastic results (it would be very hard for anyone to come up with speakers I would take over the ones I built) and I also now have a deep knowledge base, well trained ears and I can have deep meaningful conversation with speaker designers and acoustics experts. But, best of all, now all my systems sound great...
My brother is a film school grad that works for a major LA publication. He's worked at Billboard and so on. In his spare time he of course lands several side gigs producing music videos. The artists perform their vocals in his walk-in closet full of clothes. His recordings are great! LOL. It doesn't have to be fancy. I am a McIntosh MC2505 away from having my first complete analog system. I'm definitely treating the room.
You give some sound advice there (no pun intended 🤣). I'd like to add that treating the ceiling above your usual listening position is often overlooked. It made a huge difference in my home studio. Cheers Steve. Love your videos. 🍻
One of the Best Ideas for Soundproofing is "SoundProof Curtains" That Stops Outside Noise by 80% (25 Db) Tested. Check Here: livesoundproof.com/best-soundproof-curtains/
Steve, my room has floor to ceiling bookcases filled with books and there’s piles of books all over the floor. Then I squeeze a chair in and I sit and sip bourbon while listening to music. It’s a great sounding space.
Pudding Patrol is that double malt or blended whisky, or only American Whiskey which I believe is blended. I would suggest the Scottish or Irish malt whisky could be even better
Adding GIK absorbtion and deflection panels has worked wonders for our media room. My AV gear is modestly priced but we are totally satisfied with how the room sounds for both listening to music and watching movies. Steve, we are on Long Island so if you are interested in making a trip out of BKLYN you'd be most welcomed 🤗. We truly do appreciate all you do for the community. Thanks.
@@Oneness100 the room is 18ft wide x 30ft long and 7ft high. Low frequencies are managed with a couple of GIK 24x48 bass absorbtion panels as well as a few DIY bass absorbtion panels - sizes vary.
@@Omegga26 7ft high? OUCH.. I hope you realize that the GIK panels you have aren't really doing much below maybe 80hz and the room dimensions you gave me have LOTS of room mode problems starting in the low 30hz range and you have many Axial mode problems that should be treated with diaphragmatic absorption devices and that you'd need to start lining walls with them, especially if you play your content at relatively high SPL levels.. it would definitely clean things up….
More important than gear. Importance for audiophile playback in order:Great performance of material, good performance space, recordist does no harm, good microphones, (electronics, recorder, mix, mastering, pressing, packaging, distribution, etc.). Each additional step adds less and is able to wreck the process. Reproduction is similar in that the space where the tranducer (loudspeaker) is makes more difference to quality than any electronics that are not broken. If you are renting in an attached situation, focus on headphones.
Have you noticed that all advertising photos of high-end equipment, especially speakers, picture them in minimalist environments where they would sound atrocious?
Pictures need to look good. Audio needs to sound good. A model might sound great, but it needs to be priced right. That might mean less photography and ad budget, and more engineering-QC. Don't care much about metallic leather piano black finish with ufo levitation led's. Make them big, with low distortionand I'll buy em, you betcha!
pdx r13 It irritates me as it seems to suggest that you should buy those speakers as just another expensive design object for your living room, to show off to your visitors. Don't bother listening to them.
What bothers me is that many speakers with good engineering have insanely expensive finishes applied, with no option for diy bare plywood and lower price. E-V used to sell fantastic speaker / crossover sets with blueprints for a cabinet. I prefer to listen in the dark in my hobbit hovel, caring nothing for the price of WAF.
@@pirate0jimmy I definitely respect that, but having a "hobbit hovel" is a luxury I would say most people, even with pretty high-end systems, don't have. It's gonna be in their living room shared with the wife and kids. I guess it's a similar analogy to fast cars - very few are made stripped out with no AC or electric windows, because there's value and then there's perceived value. Personally, I will always pay extra (or seek out at a reasonable price) the posh piano-lacquered mahogany finish or whatever because when I'm not eyes-closed immersed in Bach or The Flashbulb, I have to walk past the darn things every day - and give a satisfied grunt of aesthetic approval. Also, commercial (speaker) manufacturers have to separate themselves from the hundreds of DIY projects out there, in bare ply with screws everywhere. There's always decent science in those designs and I'm sure a lot sound fabulous for not much cash but you're less likely to get it "family approved" when the room looks like a timber-yard.
I remember the HUGE Speakerlab cabinets in my childhood livingroom powered by a cageless Heathkit tube pair my dad built. DON'T TOUCH EVER. The Altec coaxials were at work with the MM-1100, and later MCI. I didn't have anything even close as good until military paychex began arriving, then "used good" 1990's SS, like Bryston pre, A-77, Soundcraft Delta, Grado cartridges, GFA5800, and KEF c-95. Serious money was for microphones and outboard. Microphones are the only bits that have held better than half of price (never sell!), everything else depreciating like old computers (-1% a week from new price) and getting demolished by international movers. What fun..... Old age smarts begin to kick in: lighter gear I can move in one trip, fewer channels, good sounding rooms with documentary approach. Darkness is the decor solution. Glow of tubes and panel backlights.
mike mullins When I focused my attention on room acoustics and building my own acoustic treatment devices and away from gear it totally transformed the hobby for me. Once I got my room tuned I no longer had ANY doubts about hearing the gear for what it really is . Made the observation and decision process when auditioning gear much more streamlined. And, of course, everything sounded orders of magnitude better.
@@roquesoprano913 I ended up going online to different websites that talked about acoustical treatments of rooms and auditoriums, everybody from professional contractors to DIY I have ended up DIY due to price.
+1. Well made pressed cd is a decent format, second to good vinyl and 2T quarter inch tape. I wish HDCD was open source to fake the 17th through 20th bits.
I also think acoustic panels can definitely help improve soundstage. I've played around what number of panels and placement. Definitely can be viewed has extreme if you see some pics I have. But I definitely like them. I also use ATS. I'd like to send some pics to you Steve if I can.
Of course, in my home, I don’t have a room or a wall, that belongs to the exclusive domain of my better half who is a self expressed expert on interior decorating and I’m only the Cave Man in a modern home, clumsy and without any abilities, natural or learned, about colors, style, fashion, cuisine, and such. My listening area is a small area in a location where I have been allowed to keep all my “stuff”, and it is that “stuff” that becomes my acoustical treatments. 😂😳😉. It has become my “Fortress of Solitude”, not large enough to be called a Man Cave, more like a Man Burrow. But I enjoy my music just as much as if I would be in the finest Venue. 😉👍🏻
John Doe Of course I’m not bitter, and of course I am exaggerating just a little bit 😉 but my space is my little studio where I maintain my music library of music literature and my assorted collection of my trumpets in various, sizes, shapes, tonal colors, etc and I when I practice my playing infiltrates every nook and cranny in the house and in that way I get my revenge 😂😂😂😂😂
John Doe Although I have never served in the military I offer my services to the families of the deceased American Veterans to Honor their unselfish Service to our Country with the playing of Taps. Although I have done it countless times and many more times in recent years, it’s never routine but a meaningful tribute to the sacrifices they gave in service for the freedoms so many take advantage of and fail to realize and understand.
Good advice this. Thanks! Here in sunny FL every room in the house has an acoustic blender hanging in the middle of the ceiling. Ya gotta turn off those awful ceiling fans. They chop up sound and spit it all over the room.
And.....as always.... Thank you so much for presenting. Tomorrow I'm going to play around with some carpeting around/in front of my speakers. For I have committed a sin...bare floors! Aesthetics vs better acoustics....not sure who I was trying to impress....better sound anyday of the week. Hot pink shagpile rug...get ready to be unraveled!!! 😎😎😎
I will admit the LRS speakers in my second system with the bare wood floors did benefit by placing a thick rug right in front of them with them still on the wood, and also having closed the filmy curtains behind them. The radiate both directions so the reflections do need some taming.
@@JohnDoe-np3zk I live in a climate where it's mostly hot all year round, hence no carpet. My bare floors upstairs are large tiles and I would image they reflect greatly. The room itself is rather awkward as its open plan. So...no doors....large balcony with glass doors one side....staircase the opposite side, with dining and kitchen (windows in each of those sections). I will play around with a roll of carpet I have stored away Friday evening. Glad to hear that your room treatments have helped improve your issues some. Cheers 🎶🎶🎶
@@nostro1001 my room is pretty big and open with these LRS and I have them in an alcove situation which helps the bass but creates even more reflections without the thin filmy curtains that really seem to help with the sound as in kind of amazingly maybe vs. thick curtains?
The room is the most influencial link in the audio chain. Good advice Steve. I could do a thing or two to ameliorate the dimensions of my listening room, tumbling down the walls adjacent to my kitchen or to entrance stairs 🤔
This is probably the most challenging part for me since I have lot’s of hard surfaces - wood floors, wood ceiling, large panes of glass. It all looks very nice but can be difficult for good audio. The best I could do is put down a rug, two large bass traps in the back corners and a couple panels behind my head... oh yeah, did I mention that my main seating is directly against the back wall? Not ideal. But it’s a multi-functional room and needs to look nice as well. Also helpful, I have two subwoofers to even out any room modes and I do use a miniDSP to correct the lower frequencies.
I used two 12 inch Yoga blocks behind my sofa (one at each end between the sofa and the wall). This moves the sofa away from the wall by a small amount, but keeps it in place (doesn't move when I sit down). The 12 inches makes a big difference as you don't get the bass resonances which seem to be at the wall.
Thanks Steve appreciate the request to not trash other people and their room and or equipment. I can attest the room is usually the last thing addressed normally by most people including myself lol.
Thank you Steve. Now I don't have to make this video. Next to speaker placement, room treatment has done more to improve my listening experience than anything else. I mean more than upgrading from Micca $79 speakers to NHT Super Ones, to ELAC Uni-Fi UB5s. More than changing from an integrated amp to Emotive separates and 100s of times more than cables.
Fascinating topic; room influence can't be overstated. Rugs, drapes, tapestries, etc. are a great, simple approach to what is a very complex issue. Steve: any experience with Stillpoints Apertures?
Could not agree more....the room is the most important component to sound quality. Some rooms are more challenging than others for lots of reasons including personal aesthetics style. It can definitely be a compromise in certain situations.
Quite independent from room Treatment, one listening arrangement with huge audible benefit is the "nearfield setup". Just Begin with an equilateral triangle 1.5 feet each side, at the center of the room. You are at one of the Three points, and the two stereo speakers occupy the other two points (placed ear-height, pointing at your ears). Start with that triangle, and fine tune from there. Champagne results from beer budget! (Obviously easy with small "monitor size" speakers. Impossible with Klipschorns).
You need at least 4 ft from speaker to each wall, side and front. Otherwise, you're still going to have reflections. And yes, you do have to sit rather close to the speakers and the speakers should be placed maybe a few feet apart…. But you need to have distance to each wall surface...
Be careful to not over-do-it with absorption, resulting in your room becoming similar to an anechoic chamber. You neither want your room to be too lively nor too dead. Either extreme is bad. Some folks think that in order to really hear what is in a recording that you have to rid your room of 100% reflections (have a dead, anechoic room). Those folks are mistaken (too much to write to explain why). Although every situation is different, I suggest 1) carpeting on the floor, 2) using panels designed for absorption (or rugs) to be placed behind the speakers, 3) bass traps in or near the corners, and 4) diffusion panels everywhere else. I am suggesting #2 because any sound that went from the speakers, and then reflected off of the wall behind you, and made it all the way back to the wall behind the speakers, should at this point be squashed (absorbed). That sound is a long reflection, and you really do not want that one reflecting off of the back wall and making it to your ears (your brain will not enjoy trying to make sense of that late reflection). Although panels that are purpose-built for this topic will probably do the best job, you can use plants (real or artificial), curtains, and all sorts of other decorative items to act as diffusors. If you have a flat-screen TV between your speakers, you can initially try a test by throwing blankets or towels over the TV. Then sit down and listen, and do so for a few songs. I bet you will notice an improvement (even if it is subtle). If you do not hear an improvement, then remove the blankets/towels from being draped over the TV, and listen again. Often, it is easier to hear the sound get worse, which will be the case when you allow your flat-screen TV to, again, reflect the sound. Cheers!
The best room treatment for my small 10 x15ft room with the speakers on the long wall was upgrading to Sonus Faber Olympica 3's speakers with a Rel 510 subwoofer. The clarity is great at low and high volume with no distortion and fantastic separation between the instruments . No room treatment, but I do use Dirac with a Rotel 1580MKII. I may get some wall panels, but there's no room for bass traps or putting the speakers at the distances recommended by Sonus Faber, nor room to put the REL behind the speakers. At some point, you just have to enjoy the quality without trying to get that 10% more quality for $$$. The best room treatment is high-end equipment that works in the space you have and then listening is a state of mind.
Thanks Steve. Apart from furniture & rugs I used GIK abfusors and Primacoustic London kits. A simple test of how well the room is treated or damped is if the human voice sounds present in the room (this is why you get so many comments on interviews with people in echoey music rooms;-)
The two biggest improvements I have tried are: 1. Place the speakers across a corner at 45 degree angles to the walls to avoid direct reflections, followed by 2. Diffuse the ceiling reflections which remain.
Directional corner horns with a properly engineered dispersion angle don't have the same room reflection issues as a direct radiator speaker. Just one more reason to use horns. All rooms could use some kind of treatment though, especially bass traps.
One of the best and cheapest ways to treat your listening area is through the use of mineral wool batting. It comes in bales and each section is 2 ft X 4 ft X 2 inches. Use one sheet to absorb treble and 2 sheets together to absorb bass. You can frame this material with wood and cover with speaker cloth to make it look better. It then can be secured anywhere there is a reflection.
My room has two walls with windows on them. The other two walls are broken with no insulation. My door.....what door? Ceiling.....you're kidding me right? Will a diffuser help?
Another possibility is DSP with room correction. I have the original room treatments called room tunes that I purchased 25 years ago. When I combine the two I acheive great results. I could probably do better and the DSP is undoubtedly robbing me of a little sound quality but all in all my system sounds very good.
Great vid, considerate and much needed. Can covering surfaces too much be a problem? Weird thing for our living room...if we put a big rug over our hardwood floors, it kills the tone and - dare I say - richness of the instruments. Things get lifeless. Makes no sense! But a small rug in front of our couch works. We do have thick curtains over our large windows 👍🏼
It's all about TYPE of treatment, amount of treatment and placement.. I would highly suggest going here to watch literally hundreds of short 5 to 10 minute videos on room treatment, do's don'ts, barrier for soundproofing, etc. HIGHLY educational. ua-cam.com/users/Acousticfields101 The problem with using the wrong type of absorption CAN make the room sound lifeless, so you have to be careful what you use. The difference in velocity based absorption is the absorption coefficient curve and the most critical is from 125hz to 500hz. That's the 2 octave range where most music resides. With carpet, and drapes, it's hard to know what the absorption coefficient curves are, so you have to use something for the floor, but you might have to try different types of carpet. Drapes? I would suggest using a good quality open cell foam with a good sloping curve. Acoustic Fields has the best curves I've seen so far.. VERY natural sounding..
Yes it can sound too dead. Reflections off the floor generally sound more natural than horizontal wall reflections. We interpret them differently when using sound for dimensionsl imaging. I only absorb first reflections on walls, use textured ceilings (eventhough I hate them) and diffuse back wall reflections
I have a 20 foot flagpole at the house. I’ve saved rather than destroyed my old ragged flags. They line my stereo/work room. They not only absorb the sound but look awesome as well. I learned it by chance in the 70’s at college. We hung a huge flag across the ceiling in our dorm room. It really sucked up the sound.
Modal resonances are determined by room's dimensions. Which modal resonances are excited are determined by speaker placement. Which resonances are heard are determined by the listening position.
Room acoutics are very important, I found this out after moving into a new apt. with now 9ft ceilings, big walls, L Shaped room is the worst. But cost on acoustic treatments is why most people don't buy, think if you spend a 1k on treatments or in my case will be more like 2k. You could put that 1k which what I've seen to be a conservative #, you could apply that 1k towards better speakers which according to other experts say you will improve your sound stage. Experts opinions of course. Thxs Steve very informative.
Cube room is even worse than L shape. One note boom with second peak from identical 24" thin sheetrock everywhere. Only worse in cube all-concrete room. No Eq can fix this. This is an acoustic prison torture.
Thousands of pounds of books are fantastic diffusors, as well as reduce heating cost by reducing room volume. Tell the wife! Honey, it's inventory to sell on-line.
My family room is open on one side, it has a vaulted ceiling in the middle, two windows on the rear that are covered with vertical blinds and a sliding glass door with vertical blinds, and carpeted floor. I think if I had a better room perhaps my Monitor Audio speakers would sound better. Thanks for the video.
Sometimes there is blind luck OR maybe it's just not that important to most people . in 1985 i bought the original polk SDAs monsters , a carver M1 amp and a parasound preamp at half price . my room was 10 feet wide and 15 ft long with fifteen ft slanted ceiling . i set up everything as instructed by the company and treated the room as well . the result was spectacular . fast forward to four weeks ago when i bought a new system ( i gave the old one to my son) and the room where i listen , sleep , watch tv etc. must be considered the anti audiophile room .everything about it is wrong for good listening . not being able to change the room ,i plopped down the new towers on either side of the tv up against the wall and toed them in to my sitting position in bed . hooked up everything , turned it on and miraculously , i was back in 1985 with an almost identical sound. how is that possible ? well i do t know but i'm not going to sabotage it by following some rules of placement and room conditioning .
I added acoustic foam squares on the walls, here and there, but left the 8 huge glass showcase doors on the left side untreated, because I can’t figure out what to do with them.
Let us know if you come up with anything. I have 16’ of patio doors on the north side of my living room that I don’t want to cover and block the light and the view. I am currently trying to rotate my room contents and speakers by about 20 degrees so the room and the walls no longer have parallel surfaces.
Best sound I ever had was when my bed was in front of my speakers. Then I got married and everything changed, the sound system was moved to different room :)
What is the one component of your audio system which has not been designed to give the best-quality audio within a specified price range? Your room. There are also subliminal issues which affect our general enjoyment of sound. Have you ever heard an expensive audio system which sounded great, but you don't have a burning desire to "live there"? There are many websites and UA-cam videos from a variety of sources which explain and/or demonstrate the effects of acoustical treatment in average-sized rooms which most of us have. Be careful, if a room is "corrected" to improve the sound, it may cause some people to hate the sound of an untreated room. That's what happened to me, I hate leaving my audio room. I avoid leaving my room. I have become an audio recluse (audio hermit?). And, I have NO regrets. Check out GIK, ATS, Real Traps, Acoustic Fields for info and quality treatments. Acoustical foam does work, but the quantities of foam required to effectively treat a room tend to reduce the actual space for humans. Some foams are better than others. Check out Blackbird Studio C for the ultimate example of diffusion treatment. An easy test for room acoustics: Set a smartphone or other audio recording device in the center of the room, record yourself as you walk around the room speaking, clapping, singing, farting...whatever. Listen to the playback with headphones or earbuds. It can be very revealing. From what I have experienced, for every $200 put into quality acoustic treatment, the improvement in audio quality is roughly equal to spending $500-1000 to upgrade your speakers. ok, enough of my medicated rambling.......
Hello Steve, first i want to say that i love your videos and your philosophical approach to music :) i'm a ware that despiste we love music of course, sometimes i think we love more "sound" :) so here is the question. i have a bookshelf in a lateral whall sideways to the speaker. The distance to be consideree to the sidewall should be to the wall or to the bookshelf? Thank you and have a nive year! Regards from Portugal
I've hung numerous acoustic foam panels in my mother-in-law suit located across the hallway from my bedroom. While the panels help ( to some extend) to insulate the perpetual sound of raunchy porn coming from a pair of Sopras driven by Vinni Rossi monoblocks in my mother-in-law's bedroom, I am under scrutiny by my co-op board and accusations of running an illegal brothel out of my Manhattan coop. The one positive is my Mongolian GF has picked up sufficient Japanese in the process by paying attention to the Sopras. However, I can only distinguish words like KI-MO-TZI, KI-MO-TZI.
Correct me if I'm wrong but diffusers can be as simple as that cd case behind Steve in the video, or if it was filled with books and there is no real need to buy special diffusers to the job
No using furniture as diffusers won't work anywhere near as good as using good quality proper real diffusers. Books in a bookshelf will actually absorb more than they will scatter the sound.
@e james Diamond is the hardest substance known to man. If one could imagine getting enough diamond material. Then making solid diamond bricks or sheets. Then build a room out of it. The earths core has plenty of the stuff. Just finding a way to harvest it. Oh and the price. Definitely not practical. It was just a joke 🤣
My room is very annoying..when sitting on my couch the bass is almost not there..if I stand up theres tons of bass. Have tried moving the speakers in every ditection to no avail. Any thoughts?
Im building a room so within reason i can do what i want… but how to know what treatment i need when i have not yet got all my furniture and stuff in place? So i cant make structural improvements without moving my things into place… thats not ideal…. Please advise how to work best?
I’ve more or less had the same equipment in 6 different houses. The room has the most effect over anything else in the chain. Get the room right before spending mega bucks on gear. Even then gear doesn’t need to cost more than a few hundred dollars/pounds per component to be as good as it’s ever going to get. Comparing your speakers in your room to a truly good pair of headphones is a good way to evaluate how your recorded media is supposed to sound. You are eliminating room acoustics and can focus on the recording. Then you can try to get your speaker and room relationship to simulate your headphones sound. It will never be 100% right, but it’s a good way to judge and try and fix what issues may be there.
Been there. Done that. Save your money. DIY diffusers are cheaper and just as good. But if you must buy, Synergistic Research HFT are WAY more effective than anything you can get from any diffuser.
Just one thought I would add - in many instances, you will get far more return on your dollar if investing in room treatment compares to high-end cabling, and the worse the room acoustics are, the greater the return and impact on sound. Happy listening 🎉
Dressing your room for control of reverberance bar your system is the most important thing you need to do for good sound reproduction. Because it is difficult and expensive most audiophiles move it to the bottom of the list.
@ David.....agreed. I for 1 plead guilty as per above. However, I do pay attention to speaker placement and seating accordingly. Then it's pretty much set & forget. The thing is.....bought treatments are awkward, in that you don't have any idea what the treatment will sound like, if indeed it's the type that's even required. Diffusion, bass traps and so on....it's not like you can have a listen. So, there's probably more to it than meets the eye. And that may also play apart. It seems from here and elsewhere that pleasing one's partner is all part of the game for many. Unsightly hangings on walls etc may not be overly appreciated!!
I'm sorry Miss Jackson, Ooooh My room is real, I have 4 walls and hardwood floors, Sound treatments I need to explore, I'm sorry Miss Jackson, Ooooh My room is real, Imaging is such a mess, Booming bass causes me distress
I like my concrete floor first of all. My reflections are what I like too with my bare walls and bare windows. The key is where you place the speakers and as you say break it up. I don't want muted sound. How many auditoriums have soft surfaces. I like live music a lot now.
@@UncleBenjs I will reflect on your generalization and conclusion based on prejudice and then reject it as just another attack by somebody who is a joker
@@JohnDoe-np3zk If you were in my big room (before I took the system out for winter) I would demonstrate to you how a relatively tiny amount of properly place absorption in a big loud hard surface room will improve the sound 1000% and make it better for stadium rock concert level listening (my speakers are 'domesticated' PA speakers... open baffle made with pro drivers, will put out 120+ db's without issue...), I would also demonstrate how diffusers are massively helpful for great sound. There is nothing generalized about what I'm saying, but there is years of experience with designing and installing acoustic treatments.
@@bc527c you might be right, my speakers though have ribbon tweeters facing front and rear (Infinity Kappa 8s) and the woofer floor bounce off my linoleum seems a non issue. The mid bass is a dome and spreads sound out well as does the dreaded polydome midrange that I love but eventually the soft dome cracks good I have a few extras. Anyway I digress but tbh I do think they are "well placed" and although my room is bright, I have some great equipment and listen usually at a little lower level now and also maybe 6 ft away and 8 ft apart so pretty nearfield. Not sure where I would put the treatment with this situation...
No, not necessarily. But, like ANY diffuser placement, you should do it while music is playing and so you can listen and test for the best place, as a good diffuser will make an impact... so you need to get it in the right spot. I have diffusers behind my open baffle speakers, in both rooms they spend time in, and their effect is quite real and quite noticeable and quite helpful. All that said, I have no idea what is going on in your room, so you will have to make the ultimate decision. That said... if your brain thinks up the question... then you should experiment and find the answer... What I'm trying to say is, out of the blue my brain will come up with some acoustics idea and I'll mull it over for a bit and then try it and it almost always works out... so, follow your brains ideas....
@@pala23mj People do charge a lot for diffusers... and they are a trick to design oneself, and you need a bit of a woodshop/workspace. Instead of telling you about the software I used for it's trial period and how I did over 500 designs with it before hitting the shop and how I did prototypes and tests.... I'll just say that these GIK units at the link are likely one of the best choices for purchase... or to try and copy... www.gikacoustics.com/product/4a-alpha-panel-diffusor-acoustic-panel-bass-trap/ That said, probably not a good choice for the wall behind the speakers... Quadratic diffusers are great, but expensive and a bit of a project to figure out a cost effective way to make on your own. www.atsacoustics.com/acoustic-qrd-diffuser.html?d=GPGEN01&kw=1141-QRD&gclid=Cj0KCQiAiNnuBRD3ARIsAM8KmltEsZFcptCfVkFQT-GMTw9_1sb0OBzg4XE6UVhua4S5g-bjoWJq7h0aApIyEALw_wcB Now that one is not too expensive, but at 6" deep it does not really work below (a guess) 2-3 khz. This is the style I've made, but mine are quite a bit different and mine work down to 20-40 hz... www.reyweb.com/diy-acoustic-diffuser-panels/ cheers.
Can anyone in the UK recommend products available here? Generally my sound is OK but the bass is very uneven between 60-80Hz and also certain mid-high frequencies stick out which I'm pretty sure it's not the speakers' fault (Piega Classic 5.0) as they were very refined in the demo-room!
Orientation in the room, especially rectangular. Isolate the turntable as best you can. Near field listening. Get the speakers off of the floor, away from walls and corners. Fill the rest of the room with your life, art, books and the etcetera.
Good advice. However, I think the importance of symmetry needs mentioning. If you place a bookcase on the left wall, place a similar bookcase on the right wall, and so forth. If you hang drapes in front of a window in the right wall, then hang drapes in the same place on the left wall, even if there isn't a window.
That used to be the case but the acoustic experts now recommend binaural dissimilarity. Ie a absorber, diffuser, absorber on one side wall and a diffuser, absorber, diffuser on the opposite side wall.
@@C--A That makes no sense, and as a former sound engineer, as doubt any expert would recommend that. Do you have any references to back up this mysterious claim?
@@stefanhansen5882 It's not a mysterious claim. It's from most of the top acoustician's who do the room treatments for the hi end commercial and consumer cinemas. Years of research and testing showed that the human ears preferred binaural dissimilarity. The top room acoustician's with many years of experience didn't just decide to change to binaural dissimilarity. They only done so after valid scientific research showed it had benefits. Anthony Grimani one of best room acousticians in the USA with decades of experience now primarily uses binaural dissimilarity unless a client wants a symmetrical or different room treatment layout. Heres one of the recent Audioholics room treatment videos with Gene and Anthony Grimani. You don't get any snakeoil with Audioholics - ua-cam.com/video/Eo5fDGGmAyw/v-deo.html The one hour one minute mark Anthony Grimani talks about binaural dissimilarity.
@@stefanhansen5882 I myself do like symmetry in a room as you and others. It's certainly visually more pleasing to the eyes. But I think binaural dissimilarity does actually have merit when you think properly logically about it. Not just for how how symmetry looks better for our eyes. Ie we want a balanced sound but in the real world outside walking about not much is the same symmetrically entering the left of the ear and the right of the ear. A movie scene on television is meant to replicate the real world. You can even apply that to music not recorded in symmetrically identical conditions. So the binaural dissimilarity layout of acoustic room treatments is to a certain degree kinda mimicking how the human ears hears sounds in real life.
@@C--A I find this very interesting, and appreciate that you introduced me to this - for me - new perspective. Still, I am skeptical. If a control room is "slanted" to the left and we listen to what was recorded in this control room, then we need to listen in an equally "slanted" room to hear the music as the producer intended it. But what is the control room was "slanted" to the right? Then our "left slanted" listening room becomes useless. It makes no sense to me. And how about headphones? Based on this idea of "anti-symmetry" then headphones ought to be designed "slanted" as well. This is a can of worms, if you ask me.
Hey Steve, I met a girl at a party last week who's the spitting image of Jana. Turns out this girl and her dad are musicians! I didn't get to talk to her for very long, but thought I would share that.
No No!!!... Egg cartons are really bad. They are only 2' deep and have a repeating pattern that cancels & reinforces the same frequencies over their entire surface. They will scatter some reflections (good) but with a very uneven frequency response (bad).
I don't think this is such a difficult thing - when it comes to sound, "hard" and "flat" surfaces are bad - "soft" and "irregular shaped/curved" surfaces are good. Find a balance. And your room will sound great.
Generally, sort of, yes. Exceptions for non-free diffusors based on some heavy math. Bigger rooms beat smaller rooms, even when smaller rooms are extensively treated, like loudspeakers and boxers. Bigger rooms also hold more of your stuff.
@@pirate0jimmy That is untrue, bigger rooms won't always beat a smaller room. A bigger room requires much more powerful efficient speakers and a very powerful high wattage amplifier. Plus lot's more room treatment as the volume of the room will be much bigger. A small room will cost way less than a much larger room. A bigger sound stage admittedly with a bigger room. But how many people actually have a big music listening room? And by big it would be at least 40 feet by 30 feet with a 12 feet high ceiling. Probably very very very few people.
To make my stereo sound better i would have to move, the floors are paper thin, if i jump, it almost sounds like a gong, my last place had concrete floors and my stereo sounded 80% better
No if your room is full of junk trying to use the junk as a DIY room treatment it will sound awful. A uncluttered room with some acoustic absorbers and diffusers will sound much better.
“Take it easy. He’s figuring it out as best he can.”
Great advice across many situations.
this guy is the only coach the world needs
Indeed. Arrogant and elitist people are as big of a blotch on the hobby as the snake oil salesmen. People like Steve makes people want to join in.
Keith Edginton Yeah, if you think that leaving people in the dark is a good thing. If I am doing something wrong and someone has good advice, then I would appreciate hearing it. Obviously be respectful in delivering the advice. Even if a person is snarky and has sound advice, then I would like to hear it. There is a ton of info needed to learn on how to set up the perfect system, so I don't see how it's a bad thing to help people with some shortcuts on their journey.
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Plato
Wisdom, knowledge and patience. Is there any better virtues in any individual ? You could add his brilliant delivery too and then you could call it complete, which it is. Hats off to you Steve, few equals.
I spent 40 years or so being pissed that no matter what gear I bought my setup sounded, well to be polite, less than I thought it should... I was, again, ready to buy new speakers... but then I decided to experiment with acoustics, which I did using clothing, hoodies, sweaters and blankets... when my listening room looked like an exploded laundry hamper I decided it was time to design and make my own, real, stuff, which I did, ultimately doing up the room totally with absorption, diffusers, bass traps, window and door solutions and more... Then 3 days after deciding I was done... I decided I didn't like my speakers and they were the wrong style and I designed and built my own. Point I wanted to get to... it was a real pleasure this week when I moved the big homemade speakers into the treated room (they were developed in a different room, but that room is coooooold in winter) and was able to get fantastic sound with minimal effort vs spending months being frustrated and try try try again.... So instead of buying new speakers, I learned about acoustics, designed and built my own stuff and then designed built and refined my own speakers, all for less money and with fantastic results (it would be very hard for anyone to come up with speakers I would take over the ones I built) and I also now have a deep knowledge base, well trained ears and I can have deep meaningful conversation with speaker designers and acoustics experts. But, best of all, now all my systems sound great...
bvocal glad to hear!
⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️👌
Adding ATS Acoustic panels to my room improved my system as much as adding any pair of speakers or piece of equipment.
My brother is a film school grad that works for a major LA publication. He's worked at Billboard and so on. In his spare time he of course lands several side gigs producing music videos. The artists perform their vocals in his walk-in closet full of clothes. His recordings are great! LOL. It doesn't have to be fancy. I am a McIntosh MC2505 away from having my first complete analog system. I'm definitely treating the room.
You give some sound advice there (no pun intended 🤣). I'd like to add that treating the ceiling above your usual listening position is often overlooked. It made a huge difference in my home studio. Cheers Steve. Love your videos. 🍻
My room sounds the best when the wife puts up a Christmas tree.
Bass trap.
😅😅
My room sounds best when she’s out of the house :-)
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@@gdwlaw5549 You know his wife .
What from the bar
Steve, my room has floor to ceiling bookcases filled with books and there’s piles of books all over the floor. Then I squeeze a chair in and I sit and sip bourbon while listening to music. It’s a great sounding space.
JL Main Bookshelves and books are really great natural diffusers :-)
Whiskey is a really great natural diffuser :-)
Pudding Patrol is that double malt or blended whisky, or only American Whiskey which I believe is blended. I would suggest the Scottish or Irish malt whisky could be even better
@@Harald-MacGerhard Sorry dude but that's actually a untrue myth. Bookshelfs with books will absorb much more than they will scatter the sound. 👌🏾
Adding GIK absorbtion and deflection panels has worked wonders for our media room. My AV gear is modestly priced but we are totally satisfied with how the room sounds for both listening to music and watching movies. Steve, we are on Long Island so if you are interested in making a trip out of BKLYN you'd be most welcomed 🤗. We truly do appreciate all you do for the community. Thanks.
What are you using for low frequency problems below 100hz?? And what's the dimensions LxWxH is your room?
@@Oneness100 the room is 18ft wide x 30ft long and 7ft high. Low frequencies are managed with a couple of GIK 24x48 bass absorbtion panels as well as a few DIY bass absorbtion panels - sizes vary.
@@Omegga26 7ft high? OUCH..
I hope you realize that the GIK panels you have aren't really doing much below maybe 80hz and the room dimensions you gave me have LOTS of room mode problems starting in the low 30hz range and you have many Axial mode problems that should be treated with diaphragmatic absorption devices and that you'd need to start lining walls with them, especially if you play your content at relatively high SPL levels.. it would definitely clean things up….
While technically true, anyone from Brooklyn would never say they are from Long Island
Room acoustics and speaker placement, so very critical, so often an afterthought
More important than gear. Importance for audiophile playback in order:Great performance of material, good performance space, recordist does no harm, good microphones, (electronics, recorder, mix, mastering, pressing, packaging, distribution, etc.). Each additional step adds less and is able to wreck the process. Reproduction is similar in that the space where the tranducer (loudspeaker) is makes more difference to quality than any electronics that are not broken. If you are renting in an attached situation, focus on headphones.
Have you noticed that all advertising photos of high-end equipment, especially speakers, picture them in minimalist environments where they would sound atrocious?
Pictures need to look good. Audio needs to sound good. A model might sound great, but it needs to be priced right. That might mean less photography and ad budget, and more engineering-QC. Don't care much about metallic leather piano black finish with ufo levitation led's. Make them big, with low distortionand I'll buy em, you betcha!
pdx r13 It irritates me as it seems to suggest that you should buy those speakers as just another expensive design object for your living room, to show off to your visitors. Don't bother listening to them.
What bothers me is that many speakers with good engineering have insanely expensive finishes applied, with no option for diy bare plywood and lower price. E-V used to sell fantastic speaker / crossover sets with blueprints for a cabinet. I prefer to listen in the dark in my hobbit hovel, caring nothing for the price of WAF.
@@pirate0jimmy I definitely respect that, but having a "hobbit hovel" is a luxury I would say most people, even with pretty high-end systems, don't have. It's gonna be in their living room shared with the wife and kids. I guess it's a similar analogy to fast cars - very few are made stripped out with no AC or electric windows, because there's value and then there's perceived value. Personally, I will always pay extra (or seek out at a reasonable price) the posh piano-lacquered mahogany finish or whatever because when I'm not eyes-closed immersed in Bach or The Flashbulb, I have to walk past the darn things every day - and give a satisfied grunt of aesthetic approval. Also, commercial (speaker) manufacturers have to separate themselves from the hundreds of DIY projects out there, in bare ply with screws everywhere. There's always decent science in those designs and I'm sure a lot sound fabulous for not much cash but you're less likely to get it "family approved" when the room looks like a timber-yard.
I remember the HUGE Speakerlab cabinets in my childhood livingroom powered by a cageless Heathkit tube pair my dad built. DON'T TOUCH EVER. The Altec coaxials were at work with the MM-1100, and later MCI.
I didn't have anything even close as good until military paychex began arriving, then "used good" 1990's SS, like Bryston pre, A-77, Soundcraft Delta, Grado cartridges, GFA5800, and KEF c-95. Serious money was for microphones and outboard. Microphones are the only bits that have held better than half of price (never sell!), everything else depreciating like old computers (-1% a week from new price) and getting demolished by international movers. What fun.....
Old age smarts begin to kick in: lighter gear I can move in one trip, fewer channels, good sounding rooms with documentary approach.
Darkness is the decor solution. Glow of tubes and panel backlights.
bout time we talk about the white elephant of audio gear. Thanks. I have halted upgrading gear and started designing room treatments.
mike mullins When I focused my attention on room acoustics and building my own acoustic treatment devices and away from gear it totally transformed the hobby for me. Once I got my room tuned I no longer had ANY doubts about hearing the gear for what it really is . Made the observation and decision process when auditioning gear much more streamlined. And, of course, everything sounded orders of magnitude better.
where start reading about it ?
@@roquesoprano913 I ended up going online to different websites that talked about acoustical treatments of rooms and auditoriums, everybody from professional contractors to DIY I have ended up DIY due to price.
mike mullins thanks Mike ! same route for me
Nobody tells to better than Steve , he makes Hi.Fi accessible with superb , interesting presentation
As always ..Thanks !
Thanks Allan!
room treatment is crucial and it's also an art
would like to read abc book or like of it
Wow look at all those wonderful CDs! Long live the CD!
+1. Well made pressed cd is a decent format, second to good vinyl and 2T quarter inch tape. I wish HDCD was open source to fake the 17th through 20th bits.
I also think acoustic panels can definitely help improve soundstage. I've played around what number of panels and placement. Definitely can be viewed has extreme if you see some pics I have. But I definitely like them. I also use ATS.
I'd like to send some pics to you Steve if I can.
How about a photo segment on viewers room treatment ideas!
Of course, in my home, I don’t have a room or a wall, that belongs to the exclusive domain of my better half who is a self expressed expert on interior decorating and I’m only the Cave Man in a modern home, clumsy and without any abilities, natural or learned, about colors, style, fashion, cuisine, and such. My listening area is a small area in a location where I have been allowed to keep all my “stuff”, and it is that “stuff” that becomes my acoustical treatments. 😂😳😉. It has become my “Fortress of Solitude”, not large enough to be called a Man Cave, more like a Man Burrow. But I enjoy my music just as much as if I would be in the finest Venue. 😉👍🏻
well at least your aren't bitter in your burrow...
John Doe Of course I’m not bitter, and of course I am exaggerating just a little bit 😉 but my space is my little studio where I maintain my music library of music literature and my assorted collection of my trumpets in various, sizes, shapes, tonal colors, etc and I when I practice my playing infiltrates every nook and cranny in the house and in that way I get my revenge 😂😂😂😂😂
@@Aswaguespack I bet you can play Taps really loud first thing too
John Doe Although I have never served in the military I offer my services to the families of the deceased American Veterans to Honor their unselfish Service to our Country with the playing of Taps. Although I have done it countless times and many more times in recent years, it’s never routine but a meaningful tribute to the sacrifices they gave in service for the freedoms so many take advantage of and fail to realize and understand.
Good advice this. Thanks!
Here in sunny FL every room in the house has an acoustic blender hanging in the middle of the ceiling. Ya gotta turn off those awful ceiling fans. They chop up sound and spit it all over the room.
Sounds like a great diffuser
And.....as always....
Thank you so much for presenting.
Tomorrow I'm going to play around with some carpeting around/in front of my speakers. For I have committed a sin...bare floors!
Aesthetics vs better acoustics....not sure who I was trying to impress....better sound anyday of the week.
Hot pink shagpile rug...get ready to be unraveled!!!
😎😎😎
I will admit the LRS speakers in my second system with the bare wood floors did benefit by placing a thick rug right in front of them with them still on the wood, and also having closed the filmy curtains behind them. The radiate both directions so the reflections do need some taming.
@@JohnDoe-np3zk I live in a climate where it's mostly hot all year round, hence no carpet. My bare floors upstairs are large tiles and I would image they reflect greatly. The room itself is rather awkward as its open plan. So...no doors....large balcony with glass doors one side....staircase the opposite side, with dining and kitchen (windows in each of those sections).
I will play around with a roll of carpet I have stored away Friday evening.
Glad to hear that your room treatments have helped improve your issues some.
Cheers 🎶🎶🎶
@@nostro1001 my room is pretty big and open with these LRS and I have them in an alcove situation which helps the bass but creates even more reflections without the thin filmy curtains that really seem to help with the sound as in kind of amazingly maybe vs. thick curtains?
The room is the most influencial link in the audio chain. Good advice Steve. I could do a thing or two to ameliorate the dimensions of my listening room, tumbling down the walls adjacent to my kitchen or to entrance stairs 🤔
Empty square or cubical room. 10x10 with 24 inch stud spacing, and 10 foot height. Small cube: headphone listening space.
This is probably the most challenging part for me since I have lot’s of hard surfaces - wood floors, wood ceiling, large panes of glass. It all looks very nice but can be difficult for good audio. The best I could do is put down a rug, two large bass traps in the back corners and a couple panels behind my head... oh yeah, did I mention that my main seating is directly against the back wall? Not ideal. But it’s a multi-functional room and needs to look nice as well. Also helpful, I have two subwoofers to even out any room modes and I do use a miniDSP to correct the lower frequencies.
I used two 12 inch Yoga blocks behind my sofa (one at each end between the sofa and the wall). This moves the sofa away from the wall by a small amount, but keeps it in place (doesn't move when I sit down). The 12 inches makes a big difference as you don't get the bass resonances which seem to be at the wall.
Maybe look at inline speakers or planar monitors. Expensive but they are very directional
Thanks Steve appreciate the request to not trash other people and their room and or equipment. I can attest the room is usually the last thing addressed normally by most people including myself lol.
Thank you Steve. Now I don't have to make this video. Next to speaker placement, room treatment has done more to improve my listening experience than anything else. I mean more than upgrading from Micca $79 speakers to NHT Super Ones, to ELAC Uni-Fi UB5s. More than changing from an integrated amp to Emotive separates and 100s of times more than cables.
Fascinating topic; room influence can't be overstated. Rugs, drapes, tapestries, etc. are a great, simple approach to what is a very complex issue.
Steve: any experience with Stillpoints Apertures?
Great advice, Steve. Those are the things I always do when I move.
Could not agree more....the room is the most important component to sound quality. Some rooms are more challenging than others for lots of reasons including personal aesthetics style. It can definitely be a compromise in certain situations.
Quite independent from room Treatment, one listening arrangement with huge audible benefit is the "nearfield setup".
Just Begin with an equilateral triangle 1.5 feet each side, at the center of the room. You are at one of the Three points, and the two stereo speakers occupy the other two points (placed ear-height, pointing at your ears).
Start with that triangle, and fine tune from there.
Champagne results from beer budget!
(Obviously easy with small "monitor size" speakers. Impossible with Klipschorns).
You need at least 4 ft from speaker to each wall, side and front. Otherwise, you're still going to have reflections. And yes, you do have to sit rather close to the speakers and the speakers should be placed maybe a few feet apart…. But you need to have distance to each wall surface...
Be careful to not over-do-it with absorption, resulting in your room becoming similar to an anechoic chamber.
You neither want your room to be too lively nor too dead. Either extreme is bad. Some folks think that in order to really hear what is in a recording that you have to rid your room of 100% reflections (have a dead, anechoic room). Those folks are mistaken (too much to write to explain why).
Although every situation is different, I suggest 1) carpeting on the floor, 2) using panels designed for absorption (or rugs) to be placed behind the speakers, 3) bass traps in or near the corners, and 4) diffusion panels everywhere else.
I am suggesting #2 because any sound that went from the speakers, and then reflected off of the wall behind you, and made it all the way back to the wall behind the speakers, should at this point be squashed (absorbed). That sound is a long reflection, and you really do not want that one reflecting off of the back wall and making it to your ears (your brain will not enjoy trying to make sense of that late reflection).
Although panels that are purpose-built for this topic will probably do the best job, you can use plants (real or artificial), curtains, and all sorts of other decorative items to act as diffusors.
If you have a flat-screen TV between your speakers, you can initially try a test by throwing blankets or towels over the TV. Then sit down and listen, and do so for a few songs. I bet you will notice an improvement (even if it is subtle). If you do not hear an improvement, then remove the blankets/towels from being draped over the TV, and listen again. Often, it is easier to hear the sound get worse, which will be the case when you allow your flat-screen TV to, again, reflect the sound.
Cheers!
Yeah I had a blanket party for my TV. It didn't like it.
Thank you @Steve Guttenberg for the helpful sound tips. Very much appreciated from this hip-hop head ☺️💎💯💯💯💯🎶
The best room treatment for my small 10 x15ft room with the speakers on the long wall was upgrading to Sonus Faber Olympica 3's speakers with a Rel 510 subwoofer. The clarity is great at low and high volume with no distortion and fantastic separation between the instruments . No room treatment, but I do use Dirac with a Rotel 1580MKII. I may get some wall panels, but there's no room for bass traps or putting the speakers at the distances recommended by Sonus Faber, nor room to put the REL behind the speakers. At some point, you just have to enjoy the quality without trying to get that 10% more quality for $$$. The best room treatment is high-end equipment that works in the space you have and then listening is a state of mind.
Thanks Steve.
Apart from furniture & rugs I used GIK abfusors and Primacoustic London kits.
A simple test of how well the room is treated or damped is if the human voice sounds present in the room (this is why you get so many comments on interviews with people in echoey music rooms;-)
The two biggest improvements I have tried are: 1. Place the speakers across a corner at 45 degree angles to the walls to avoid direct reflections, followed by 2. Diffuse the ceiling reflections which remain.
Directional corner horns with a properly engineered dispersion angle don't have the same room reflection issues as a direct radiator speaker. Just one more reason to use horns. All rooms could use some kind of treatment though, especially bass traps.
Steve I can't help but think you made this video just for me :), great info!
One of the best and cheapest ways to treat your listening area is through the use of mineral wool batting. It comes in bales and each section is 2 ft X 4 ft X 2 inches. Use one sheet to absorb treble and 2 sheets together to absorb bass. You can frame this material with wood and cover with speaker cloth to make it look better. It then can be secured anywhere there is a reflection.
Two sheets to absorb bass?!
Yeah - I’d love to see the dB reduction in the low frequencies readout with a mighty 4” of wadding.
My room has two walls with windows on them.
The other two walls are broken with no insulation.
My door.....what door?
Ceiling.....you're kidding me right?
Will a diffuser help?
Another possibility is DSP with room correction. I have the original room treatments called room tunes that I purchased 25 years ago. When I combine the two I acheive great results. I could probably do better and the DSP is undoubtedly robbing me of a little sound quality but all in all my system sounds very good.
Great vid, considerate and much needed. Can covering surfaces too much be a problem? Weird thing for our living room...if we put a big rug over our hardwood floors, it kills the tone and - dare I say - richness of the instruments. Things get lifeless. Makes no sense! But a small rug in front of our couch works. We do have thick curtains over our large windows 👍🏼
It's all about TYPE of treatment, amount of treatment and placement..
I would highly suggest going here to watch literally hundreds of short 5 to 10 minute videos on room treatment, do's don'ts, barrier for soundproofing, etc. HIGHLY educational.
ua-cam.com/users/Acousticfields101
The problem with using the wrong type of absorption CAN make the room sound lifeless, so you have to be careful what you use. The difference in velocity based absorption is the absorption coefficient curve and the most critical is from 125hz to 500hz. That's the 2 octave range where most music resides.
With carpet, and drapes, it's hard to know what the absorption coefficient curves are, so you have to use something for the floor, but you might have to try different types of carpet. Drapes? I would suggest using a good quality open cell foam with a good sloping curve. Acoustic Fields has the best curves I've seen so far.. VERY natural sounding..
Yes it can sound too dead. Reflections off the floor generally sound more natural than horizontal wall reflections. We interpret them differently when using sound for dimensionsl imaging.
I only absorb first reflections on walls, use textured ceilings (eventhough I hate them) and diffuse back wall reflections
I have a 20 foot flagpole at the house. I’ve saved rather than destroyed my old ragged flags. They line my stereo/work room. They not only absorb the sound but look awesome as well.
I learned it by chance in the 70’s at college. We hung a huge flag across the ceiling in our dorm room. It really sucked up the sound.
Room dimensions are fixed but speaker placement and listening position has some of the same net effect as altering the room's dimensions.
No, no it doesn't. Sorry but what you say has zero effect on room modes.
I agree with you.
Modal resonances are determined by room's dimensions.
Which modal resonances are excited are determined by speaker placement.
Which resonances are heard are determined by the listening position.
Room acoutics are very important, I found this out after moving into a new apt. with now 9ft ceilings, big walls, L Shaped room is the worst.
But cost on acoustic treatments is why most people don't buy, think if you spend a 1k on treatments or in my case will be more like 2k. You could put that 1k which what I've seen to be a conservative #, you could apply that 1k towards better speakers which according to other experts say you will improve your sound stage. Experts opinions of course. Thxs Steve very informative.
Cube room is even worse than L shape. One note boom with second peak from identical 24" thin sheetrock everywhere. Only worse in cube all-concrete room. No Eq can fix this. This is an acoustic prison torture.
The only time clutter is a benefit.
I should be set, will have to tell my wife right away.
Thousands of pounds of books are fantastic diffusors, as well as reduce heating cost by reducing room volume. Tell the wife! Honey, it's inventory to sell on-line.
@@pirate0jimmy books on a bookshelf actually do very little to scatter the sound. They absorb much more than they diffuse 👌🏾
Brilliant idea thanks 🔊🕪♩ 👍
My family room is open on one side, it has a vaulted ceiling in the middle, two windows on the rear that are covered with vertical blinds and a sliding glass door with vertical blinds, and carpeted floor. I think if I had a better room perhaps my Monitor Audio speakers would sound better. Thanks for the video.
my family room that opens to the kitchen sounds similar to yours, and I wonder if acoustic panels will really help.
Good advice, great shirt.
Surface caos is the best. Big libraries full of books, stone walls carpets, furnitures, non parallel walls, etc..
Sometimes there is blind luck OR maybe it's just not that important to most people .
in 1985 i bought the original polk SDAs monsters , a carver M1 amp and a parasound preamp at half price . my room was 10 feet wide and 15 ft long with fifteen ft slanted ceiling . i set up everything as instructed by the company and treated the room as well .
the result was spectacular .
fast forward to four weeks ago when i bought a new system ( i gave the old one to my son) and the room where i listen , sleep , watch tv etc. must be considered the anti audiophile room .everything about it is wrong for good listening .
not being able to change the room ,i plopped down the new towers on either side of the tv up against the wall and toed them in to my sitting position in bed . hooked up everything , turned it on and miraculously , i was back in 1985 with an almost identical sound.
how is that possible ? well i do t know but i'm not going to sabotage it by following some rules of placement and room conditioning .
I added acoustic foam squares on the walls, here and there, but left the 8 huge glass showcase doors on the left side untreated, because I can’t figure out what to do with them.
Let us know if you come up with anything. I have 16’ of patio doors on the north side of my living room that I don’t want to cover and block the light and the view. I am currently trying to rotate my room contents and speakers by about 20 degrees so the room and the walls no longer have parallel surfaces.
You are awesome man.
rugs yes. 40 yrs ago a nasty room was tamed with a wool rug on the wall.
My own made diy skyline diffuser. Its very effective for me.
Best sound I ever had was when my bed was in front of my speakers. Then I got married and everything changed, the sound system was moved to different room :)
What is the one component of your audio system which has not been designed to give the best-quality audio within a specified price range? Your room.
There are also subliminal issues which affect our general enjoyment of sound. Have you ever heard an expensive audio system which sounded great, but you don't have a burning desire to "live there"?
There are many websites and UA-cam videos from a variety of sources which explain and/or demonstrate the effects of acoustical treatment in average-sized rooms which most of us have.
Be careful, if a room is "corrected" to improve the sound, it may cause some people to hate the sound of an untreated room. That's what happened to me, I hate leaving my audio room. I avoid leaving my room. I have become an audio recluse (audio hermit?). And, I have NO regrets.
Check out GIK, ATS, Real Traps, Acoustic Fields for info and quality treatments. Acoustical foam does work, but the quantities of foam required to effectively treat a room tend to reduce the actual space for humans. Some foams are better than others. Check out Blackbird Studio C for the ultimate example of diffusion treatment.
An easy test for room acoustics: Set a smartphone or other audio recording device in the center of the room, record yourself as you walk around the room speaking, clapping, singing, farting...whatever. Listen to the playback with headphones or earbuds. It can be very revealing.
From what I have experienced, for every $200 put into quality acoustic treatment, the improvement in audio quality is roughly equal to spending $500-1000 to upgrade your speakers.
ok, enough of my medicated rambling.......
Great Video !
That's an awesome shirt btw
Hello Steve, first i want to say that i love your videos and your philosophical approach to music :) i'm a ware that despiste we love music of course, sometimes i think we love more "sound" :) so here is the question. i have a bookshelf in a lateral whall sideways to the speaker. The distance to be consideree to the sidewall should be to the wall or to the bookshelf?
Thank you and have a nive year! Regards from Portugal
I've hung numerous acoustic foam panels in my mother-in-law suit located across the hallway from my bedroom. While the panels help ( to some extend) to insulate the perpetual sound of raunchy porn coming from a pair of Sopras driven by Vinni Rossi monoblocks in my mother-in-law's bedroom, I am under scrutiny by my co-op board and accusations of running an illegal brothel out of my Manhattan coop. The one positive is my Mongolian GF has picked up sufficient Japanese in the process by paying attention to the Sopras. However, I can only distinguish words like KI-MO-TZI, KI-MO-TZI.
This is some snl/30 rock shit
Correct me if I'm wrong but diffusers can be as simple as that cd case behind Steve in the video, or if it was filled with books and there is no real need to buy special diffusers to the job
No using furniture as diffusers won't work anywhere near as good as using good quality proper real diffusers.
Books in a bookshelf will actually absorb more than they will scatter the sound.
Great advice, thanks Steve !
I noticed that my exposed brick front wall does a good job acoustically.
Nothing beats diamond walls, floors and ceilings. But again if you can get it 😂
@e james Diamond is the hardest substance known to man. If one could imagine getting enough diamond material. Then making solid diamond bricks or sheets. Then build a room out of it. The earths core has plenty of the stuff. Just finding a way to harvest it. Oh and the price. Definitely not practical. It was just a joke 🤣
@e james I assuming if the brick is plastered and is flat it negates the benefits
My room is very annoying..when sitting on my couch the bass is almost not there..if I stand up theres tons of bass. Have tried moving the speakers in every ditection to no avail. Any thoughts?
Im building a room so within reason i can do what i want… but how to know what treatment i need when i have not yet got all my furniture and stuff in place? So i cant make structural improvements without moving my things into place… thats not ideal…. Please advise how to work best?
great advice
Acoustimac is also a good company to look at. They seem to have more options than GIK
Would you say cheap speakers in a great room are better than expensive speakers in a poor room?
Do big plants in room helps?
The music probably helps the plants.
How about a floating floor/elecated floorboards? I've always been under the impression that a floating floor is best for lower frequencies
Dean Churchman Go for it! But that’s not easy or cheap!
I’ve more or less had the same equipment in 6 different houses.
The room has the most effect over anything else in the chain. Get the room right before spending mega bucks on gear. Even then gear doesn’t need to cost more than a few hundred dollars/pounds per component to be as good as it’s ever going to get.
Comparing your speakers in your room to a truly good pair of headphones is a good way to evaluate how your recorded media is supposed to sound. You are eliminating room acoustics and can focus on the recording. Then you can try to get your speaker and room relationship to simulate your headphones sound. It will never be 100% right, but it’s a good way to judge and try and fix what issues may be there.
Thank Steve!
Nice shirt 👕
why do you still have the Schitt DAC in the system? I thought the Denafrips was the new king ?
He might own the Schiit, whereas the other may have been a review unit.
How about video on room correction software? Dirac live or Lyngdorf room perfect
Been there. Done that. Save your money. DIY diffusers are cheaper and just as good. But if you must buy, Synergistic Research HFT are WAY more effective than anything you can get from any diffuser.
How about and open room? Full front wall but partly open back wall fully open right side wall, multi depth left wall.
Just one thought I would add - in many instances, you will get far more return on your dollar if investing in room treatment compares to high-end cabling, and the worse the room acoustics are, the greater the return and impact on sound. Happy listening 🎉
Link to sound panels is missing info. Takes me to a "Ruh-Roh" page.
Dressing your room for control of reverberance bar your system is the most important thing you need to do for good sound reproduction. Because it is difficult and expensive most audiophiles move it to the bottom of the list.
@ David.....agreed. I for 1 plead guilty as per above.
However, I do pay attention to speaker placement and seating accordingly. Then it's pretty much set & forget.
The thing is.....bought treatments are awkward, in that you don't have any idea what the treatment will sound like, if indeed it's the type that's even required.
Diffusion, bass traps and so on....it's not like you can have a listen.
So, there's probably more to it than meets the eye. And that may also play apart. It seems from here and elsewhere that pleasing one's partner is all part of the game for many. Unsightly hangings on walls etc may not be overly appreciated!!
Are you ready to buy your last room for your audio setup? 😃
LOL
According to the rules of music you must call it "Miss Jackson" if your room is nasty.
I'm sorry Miss Jackson, Ooooh
My room is real,
I have 4 walls and hardwood floors,
Sound treatments I need to explore,
I'm sorry Miss Jackson, Ooooh
My room is real,
Imaging is such a mess,
Booming bass causes me distress
I like my concrete floor first of all. My reflections are what I like too with my bare walls and bare windows. The key is where you place the speakers and as you say break it up. I don't want muted sound. How many auditoriums have soft surfaces. I like live music a lot now.
I don't think you understand how speakers and acoustics work
@@UncleBenjs I will reflect on your generalization and conclusion based on prejudice and then reject it as just another attack by somebody who is a joker
@@JohnDoe-np3zk If you were in my big room (before I took the system out for winter) I would demonstrate to you how a relatively tiny amount of properly place absorption in a big loud hard surface room will improve the sound 1000% and make it better for stadium rock concert level listening (my speakers are 'domesticated' PA speakers... open baffle made with pro drivers, will put out 120+ db's without issue...), I would also demonstrate how diffusers are massively helpful for great sound. There is nothing generalized about what I'm saying, but there is years of experience with designing and installing acoustic treatments.
@@bc527c you might be right, my speakers though have ribbon tweeters facing front and rear (Infinity Kappa 8s) and the woofer floor bounce off my linoleum seems a non issue. The mid bass is a dome and spreads sound out well as does the dreaded polydome midrange that I love but eventually the soft dome cracks good I have a few extras. Anyway I digress but tbh I do think they are "well placed" and although my room is bright, I have some great equipment and listen usually at a little lower level now and also maybe 6 ft away and 8 ft apart so pretty nearfield. Not sure where I would put the treatment with this situation...
@@bc527c 100% right, thank you for going into the detail I couldn't be bothered to LOL
The easiest way is to start with the ceiling. Maybe 10 - 25% coverage is enough.
Why people worry more about ceiling reflections than floor reflections if the floor is closer to the speakers?
Sonab speakers project upwards so early projection from the floor is out.
Are diffusers a bad idea behind a bi-polar speaker. Definitive technology BP7002.
No, not necessarily. But, like ANY diffuser placement, you should do it while music is playing and so you can listen and test for the best place, as a good diffuser will make an impact... so you need to get it in the right spot. I have diffusers behind my open baffle speakers, in both rooms they spend time in, and their effect is quite real and quite noticeable and quite helpful. All that said, I have no idea what is going on in your room, so you will have to make the ultimate decision. That said... if your brain thinks up the question... then you should experiment and find the answer... What I'm trying to say is, out of the blue my brain will come up with some acoustics idea and I'll mull it over for a bit and then try it and it almost always works out... so, follow your brains ideas....
@@bc527c Thank you for your thoughts and input! Any good companies come to mind for diffusion or is DYI an option??
@@pala23mj People do charge a lot for diffusers... and they are a trick to design oneself, and you need a bit of a woodshop/workspace. Instead of telling you about the software I used for it's trial period and how I did over 500 designs with it before hitting the shop and how I did prototypes and tests.... I'll just say that these GIK units at the link are likely one of the best choices for purchase... or to try and copy...
www.gikacoustics.com/product/4a-alpha-panel-diffusor-acoustic-panel-bass-trap/
That said, probably not a good choice for the wall behind the speakers... Quadratic diffusers are great, but expensive and a bit of a project to figure out a cost effective way to make on your own.
www.atsacoustics.com/acoustic-qrd-diffuser.html?d=GPGEN01&kw=1141-QRD&gclid=Cj0KCQiAiNnuBRD3ARIsAM8KmltEsZFcptCfVkFQT-GMTw9_1sb0OBzg4XE6UVhua4S5g-bjoWJq7h0aApIyEALw_wcB
Now that one is not too expensive, but at 6" deep it does not really work below (a guess) 2-3 khz.
This is the style I've made, but mine are quite a bit different and mine work down to 20-40 hz...
www.reyweb.com/diy-acoustic-diffuser-panels/
cheers.
Can anyone in the UK recommend products available here? Generally my sound is OK but the bass is very uneven between 60-80Hz and also certain mid-high frequencies stick out which I'm pretty sure it's not the speakers' fault (Piega Classic 5.0) as they were very refined in the demo-room!
i like ur SHIRT
i have a home studio wat do u suggest acoustic panels at the back wall or Diffussor
I have a sloped high ceiling in my listening room. Is this considered bad or good in terms of sound bouncing back?
George Pantazis Non-parallel opposing surfaces are good.
Orientation in the room, especially rectangular. Isolate the turntable as best you can. Near field listening. Get the speakers off of the floor, away from walls and corners. Fill the rest of the room with your life, art, books and the etcetera.
Good advice. However, I think the importance of symmetry needs mentioning. If you place a bookcase on the left wall, place a similar bookcase on the right wall, and so forth. If you hang drapes in front of a window in the right wall, then hang drapes in the same place on the left wall, even if there isn't a window.
That used to be the case but the acoustic experts now recommend binaural dissimilarity. Ie a absorber, diffuser, absorber on one side wall and a diffuser, absorber, diffuser on the opposite side wall.
@@C--A That makes no sense, and as a former sound engineer, as doubt any expert would recommend that. Do you have any references to back up this mysterious claim?
@@stefanhansen5882 It's not a mysterious claim. It's from most of the top acoustician's who do the room treatments for the hi end commercial and consumer cinemas. Years of research and testing showed that the human ears preferred binaural dissimilarity.
The top room acoustician's with many years of experience didn't just decide to change to binaural dissimilarity. They only done so after valid scientific research showed it had benefits. Anthony Grimani one of best room acousticians in the USA with decades of experience now primarily uses binaural dissimilarity unless a client wants a symmetrical or different room treatment layout.
Heres one of the recent Audioholics room treatment videos with Gene and Anthony Grimani. You don't get any snakeoil with Audioholics - ua-cam.com/video/Eo5fDGGmAyw/v-deo.html
The one hour one minute mark Anthony Grimani talks about binaural dissimilarity.
@@stefanhansen5882 I myself do like symmetry in a room as you and others. It's certainly visually more pleasing to the eyes. But I think binaural dissimilarity does actually have merit when you think properly logically about it. Not just for how how symmetry looks better for our eyes.
Ie we want a balanced sound but in the real world outside walking about not much is the same symmetrically entering the left of the ear and the right of the ear. A movie scene on television is meant to replicate the real world. You can even apply that to music not recorded in symmetrically identical conditions.
So the binaural dissimilarity layout of acoustic room treatments is to a certain degree kinda mimicking how the human ears hears sounds in real life.
@@C--A I find this very interesting, and appreciate that you introduced me to this - for me - new perspective. Still, I am skeptical. If a control room is "slanted" to the left and we listen to what was recorded in this control room, then we need to listen in an equally "slanted" room to hear the music as the producer intended it. But what is the control room was "slanted" to the right? Then our "left slanted" listening room becomes useless. It makes no sense to me. And how about headphones? Based on this idea of "anti-symmetry" then headphones ought to be designed "slanted" as well. This is a can of worms, if you ask me.
Hey Steve,
I met a girl at a party last week who's the spitting image of Jana.
Turns out this girl and her dad are musicians!
I didn't get to talk to her for very long, but thought I would share that.
I used to laugh when Jeremy Kipnis showed me the Oolog Acoustics speakers in his livingroom. Hard walls, glassandbrick and zero acoustics treatment.
If you want to go real cheap my buddy used old cardboard egg cartons, he’s a recording engineer and was desperate. It worked wonders. 😎
ahah
No No!!!... Egg cartons are really bad. They are only 2' deep and have a repeating pattern that cancels & reinforces the same frequencies over their entire surface. They will scatter some reflections (good) but with a very uneven frequency response (bad).
MAHOOONEEEYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!
i have floor to ceiling bookcases
Sadly my main system doesnt sound as good as my secondary system because of the room. Tile, glass windows etc...
I would swap them around!
I don't think this is such a difficult thing - when it comes to sound, "hard" and "flat" surfaces are bad - "soft" and "irregular shaped/curved" surfaces are good. Find a balance. And your room will sound great.
Generally, sort of, yes. Exceptions for non-free diffusors based on some heavy math. Bigger rooms beat smaller rooms, even when smaller rooms are extensively treated, like loudspeakers and boxers. Bigger rooms also hold more of your stuff.
@@pirate0jimmy That is untrue, bigger rooms won't always beat a smaller room. A bigger room requires much more powerful efficient speakers and a very powerful high wattage amplifier. Plus lot's more room treatment as the volume of the room will be much bigger.
A small room will cost way less than a much larger room. A bigger sound stage admittedly with a bigger room. But how many people actually have a big music listening room? And by big it would be at least 40 feet by 30 feet with a 12 feet high ceiling. Probably very very very few people.
To make my stereo sound better i would have to move, the floors are paper thin, if i jump, it almost sounds like a gong, my last place had concrete floors and my stereo sounded 80% better
My floor is concrete with tiles and a underlay & carpet over it.
people say, bookshelves with books are great diffusors providing some absorbtion also
Not so much. Check out GIK acoustics. I have found them to be realistic, fair and very willing to provide advice (for free).
So the more junk you have int he room, the better the sound :)
No if your room is full of junk trying to use the junk as a DIY room treatment it will sound awful.
A uncluttered room with some acoustic absorbers and diffusers will sound much better.