forensic skill is gluttony, make sense if you want more evidence with legal way or illegal way just for murdering people, desire to get more clue ? but there kinda error here. maybe the key word here " want more " so many glutton combine with greed somehow.
And I think both Doggocliff and SIMPiercliff both embodies Envy in different ways: both can't obtain what they want the most, making it everyones' problem to a self-destructive degree but not actually looking for a solution or a way to obtain it, the difference being how they went about expressing it. Linto, Hindley, Cathy, and Nelly also show different aspects of Envy and how they deal with imo.
The reason why the Sinners can’t harness “Shin” as of right now is because they don’t know the direct methods of doing so. Shin requires you to channel Light in a fashion that combines both trauma and treasured memories together, creating a harmonious strike that ends up as the rings. Essentially, Shin is the in-between of harnessing E.G.O and Distorting. Since manifesting E.G.O requires you to accept and resolve your own inner turmoil, and Distorting is denying yourself of that personal catharsis, this means Shin is that raw, unfettered strength that comes from positive and negative emotions. Whereas E.G.O and Distortion shapes and molds itself to the user, Shin remains the same regardless of who uses it. It is the Seed of Light in it’s purest form.
For your question on Forensics: Reminder that 7 Assoc. Heathcliff is very much intent on solving whatever case he was given, and Forensics is typically associated with investigating, or gaining knowledge on a subject through observing or testing, in order to solve some kind of crime or mystery. (The exact definition or Forensic is: 'scientific tests or techniques used in connection with the detection of crime.' I don't think any information group would willingly turn down information on a case, especially when they're actively researching it, hence why forensics is more gluttonous than anything else in his kit. It's him searching and taking the information he gained from investigating (Hence why he has the papers in his hands for only this skill.) Anyways, this just an occasional Limbus commenter who happened to take a small Forensics class, and have a good day/night.
@@FreyCheqama I’ll do you one better, or at least a TL;DR. Forensics is Gluttony affinity because 7Cliff just friggin’ wants to get the investigative part of the case over with and finally get to the part where he gets to crack some skulls.
I can think of one other way it could be seen. Based off of his story, (I feel like) he wants to prove that those 'masterminds' can be taken out by... if I remember correctly he calls himself a hillbilly or something like that. Either way, I could see it as him seeking the satisfaction of taking down those self-righteous overconfident people and tearing down what they thought was unable to fail, or that someone not as 'noble' (lacking the right word) would be able drag them down.
@@neroesthepangolinmaster He wants his life to be a series of episodes of Columbo, the arrogant and the rich being caught by a bumpkin that doesn't even seem that smart or capable at first glance.
"Why are they called sinners" 2 points to note on this. One in Korean and Japanese the word used is apparently prisoner (with connotations to sinner). But secondly I think they are sinners because they've all comitted some kind of act they personally see as bad. Going in order of cantos so far: - Gregor has run away from those who looked up to them and also killed several innocent people never intending to do anything but run from the problem (Sloth) - Rodion killed a tax collecter linked to the middle causing her homeplace to get slaughtered out her desire to feel special to feel like she changed things for the better (Pride) - Sinclair desire for attention (gluttony same as Dongrang) caused the deaths of his family by leaking confidential information and (unknowinglly assisting the would be killer) - Yi Sang contributed to the defilement of his own technology after being broken by the circumstances of the league out of Sloth - Ishmael gave up her own purpose in life, stuck herself in the past and let her path be decided by another (Gloom) - Heathcliffs envy caused his rift with Catherine by preventing him from having a conversation with her at the thought she might love another Everyone in the city has sins and everyone in the city will continue to sin. Sin is an inevitability because even good intentions have casualties in the current state of the city. What matters is if people can recognise and accept the weight of their sins, that's what grants one EGO. That's also what makes the sinners are special because they not only recognise their sins but they feel guilt to them yet they weren't brought to a confrontation point (hence they didn't distort or gain EGO) before making a contract with Dante. In fact it seems like the boughs themselves act specifically to bring them to that confrontation point.
I would argue that Sinclair's sin of gluttony is moreso him being unsatisfied/afraid of the changes in his relatively idyllic life (his family getting prosthesises) and in an effort to avoid confronting those changes and his desire to return to the way his life was before, he ends up dooming and destroying what he was attempting to preserve. Sinclair' gluttony is based around his desire for safety and innocence, and it is his desire to have those things in excess that causes him to make a deal with Kromer.
I would say ishmael’s more wrath. It’s been shown several times that she wants nothing but stab ahab with a harpoon. Yes, she is sad of the deaths of her peers, but she’s mainly livid about ahab being the one who did it
@@evalyne1105 Ishmael has aspects of wrath but they don't really play that much a part into what she considers to be her sin. Her wrath wasn't what caused her circumstances after all, it was a reaction to them. Her gloom however is what caused her to lose her own compass and led her to join the pequod in the first place. It also led to her falling to Ahabs command during the journey and led the rest of the pequod to their doom.
i think Envy correlating to charge is about hiding your intentions, hiding your jealousy, envy to others, to then finally be able to release all of it, like storing charge and then dumping it all onto one powerful skill. Much like Heathcliff who has been holding back, almost not wanting to come to the manor to see Cathy, but once he's in there and set to find her, he's DEAD set on finding her, doing whatever it takes to do so, releasing everything he got left in him to go and find her.
I believe lust is only a strong desire, an obsession. A hyperfixation actively on your mind that you crave to fix. While gluttony is an endless urge that won't be satisfied. Gaining more still leaves you unhappy, so you keep eating and eating. It's a pursuit of more rather than a solid fixation.
This yeah. Lust is the pursuit of desire/pleasure. Gluttony is the pursuit of excess. In that sense, you could probably say that PM wrapped up Greed and Gluttony into the same Sin, to make sense for Gloom. To use NFaust/Kromer as an example, her passives are Lust based because her character is all about chasing the righteous, twisted satisfaction she feels when purging heretics. Whereas Sinclair is based around Gluttony because his sin was kickstarted by him wanting more attention, and based around him being unsatisfied with his current (relatively idyllic life) and making a metaphorical pact with the devil so he could avoid confronting the parts of his life he was unsatisfied with.
I always read lust in Limbus as the idea of perversion of things. This is why Don’s and Ryoshu’s ego are based on it because it’s their ideals/visions. It could simply be just about their ideals but I like the idea of them being slightly warped/wrong with Ryoshu seeing it as art when we see murder and Don seeing a bright fun jousting when we see all the blood spilled she brutally stabs out of her opponent.
The reason that Envy is so elusive in the form of Peccatula is because the self needs to remain in-tact to have something to be envious about. you must know what you have to realize someone has something you dont. However, there is one way to fulfill the condition of losing one's sense of self during Distortion to become a peccatula, while at the same time distorting due to the sin of Envy, and that's abjection: becoming envious of humanity as a whole, seeing yourself as less than human. Sound familiar? It is my assertion that Heathcliff, The Heartbroken is a Sin-aligned Distortion, similar to Kromer, Dreamer of Human Wholeness and Dongrang, Who Denies All. Hindley distorted towards envy but because he could realize that Heathcliff took his home, violin, et cetera, he didnt have the taint of sin and he *just* became a dog as Hindley, The Reaved Lamenter. However, Heathcliff's Distortion has elements of Envy Sin alignment along with the things he thinks of himself, the sack of flesh, the barbed wire, the wolf-like creature, that's all Heathcliff's part of the distortion. However, there are clashing elements in here as well. the Chain, the Spikes along the wolf's flesh, the armor plating, nothing in Heathcliff's backstory would explain these things in the same way as the other features. Think back to Dongrang, Who Denies All. He has the clothing, he has the reaping scythe, he has the cow features, all important to Dongrang. However, then there was the Peccatula Gulae-like appearance underneath the facade of the clothing and hat, the vine-like arms. While part of the distortion is his own, part of it has been taken over by his sin of Gluttony as he distorted. If we take that concept, apply it to Heathcliff, The Heartbroken, then work backwards, we can reach a vauge conclusion of what a pure Envy Peccatula would look like if someone became envious of humanity to the point of full Sin Distortion: a sentient hollow shell, a living suit of armor covered in spikes and chains, an imitation of the human that it so longingly wishes to be, but cant.
That envy exactly sounds like what Narcissists are like. A shell of barbed armor with nothing beneath, by making such a facade due to envy their original self is gone. Its all smoke and mirrors, and due to such envy they gave away what they were to be something they aren't.
That in turn would also explain why Envy Peccatulas would be so horrifically rare. Because in order to truly attain a Peccatula, you have to become so lost in sin that you have 0 ability to come back from it. It is far easier to become a Wrathful Peccatula because you become so consumed by Wrath that you become a monster for example (you end up losing the side that makes you human). On the other hand, it is harder to become an Envy Peccatula because the sin itself wants you to be driven towards that sin to embody it, which will just Distort you instead. In order for an Envy Peccatula to even occur, the individual must be both consumed by Envy and have utterly 0 drive to accept the fact that he is envious towards a particular group, which are both contradictory conditions given the nature of Envy.
@@MrZalgo-ml2iw yeah the best way to consistently make envy peccatula would to use a gnome or similar being if that is even possible or feasible because do they count as a human and depending on that answer causes potentially more questions If they do count can they distort and gain EGO If not what does it truly take to get envy peccatula
@@MrZalgo-ml2iw which is why the only way to even begin to sin distort aligned with Envy is to be envious of Humanity in and of itself, which is proportionally exceedingly rare compared to being lost in other sins
"I'm seeing this as envy being about taking something seen as good, useful, or wholesome and twisting it into something unrecognizable." You described envy in a way I haven't seen before and I liked it. Fortune and wellbeing, when taken by envy, is quickly distorted into a new torment; its thorn-laden brambles wrap around the mind of its bearer, filling it with resentment towards those who have it better; those who walk unburdened by the bitter, hollow feeling..
10:57 Gluttony is generally associated with 7 association and their constant search of information to sell to the highest bidder. It's just that Heathcliffs particular speciality, crime investigation, isn't usually associated with the knowledge brokering.
10:45, I believe the reason his S3 is Gluttony is because of what makes Gluttony unique compares to Lust, as both sorta feel rather similar, being "a powerful desire for something". Lust represents a "desire for something" and is the passion that fuels your action to get that thing, whereas Gluttony is more like the actual action of "getting the thing", but with the added detail of over-collecting it beyond what is really needed. 7Cliff's S3 is Forensics, which is the methods and tests performed in order to learn more about a crime and build a case. From his dialogue, he's shown to be REALLY obsessed with solving cases, as his morning line has him ask you to not disturb him since he's figuring a case out, his afternoon line is him has him being really overdue for one of his cases, and his evening line says he can't sleep at all because the case keeps nagging at his mind. When defeated he laments how odd it is that things deviated from "the patterns", and he's constantly talking about how his intuition was right all along from the start, even before he solved anything. From his Identity story: "After a life like that... the hows and whys of a murder scene just come naturally to me. It's just intuition, nothing more. But I'm not like the armchair detectives in those mystery novels. It's not like I can figure out the whole scene and scheme from a glance. Sometimes clues get lost in the whole mess, and... Gah, my head... Calling me a 'profiler', whatever that means... Forcing me to write these reports every damn day... I'm about to lose it." 7Cliff's entire method of investigating is basically "The vibes/broad details suggest it's going to be X kind of situation, so collect as much info as possible about the situation. Then he looks at the evidence and allows his intuition to figure out what evidence is actually important and what exactly occurred". He might not present himself as a "proper investigator" like 7Outis or 7Faust do, and he may struggle to really explain how all the clues fit together to others, but he knows they do " 'cause that's how it always goes with these types". So his S3 is gluttony because he goes into investigations fully aware that "clues can get lost in the mess", so he aims to just gather as much random information as possible since anything could be a critical clue, and then figure out whether it's actually important to solving the case afterwards. Also, a tiny thing, but I've always LOVED Nclair's guard. His whole identity is basically a distortion waiting to happen, Sinclair being so absolutely overwhelmed by Kromer/Nfaust and what she did that he simply gave in, submitted to her and began to base his own self-identity based entirely around what she wants from him. His skill sins are fitting, with gloom showing his despair and submission, lust to show his desire to just not face his problems and become what NFaust wanted from him, and Wrath because Sinclair has a very angry part of him deep down and now that part is allowed to run wild. And then there's his guard, Enough..., which restores his sanity and is actually shocking powerful at a 17 roll on tails, 10 on heads meaning even on heads he still gets a damn good block effect. But importantly, it's sin affinity is Pride. His guard is Nclair looking at himself, looking at what he became, and deciding "Enough is enough... This is going too far", using what fragments remain of his self-worth and self-confidence to stabilize his mindset and stop falling deeper and deeper into NFaust's grasp, at least for a short time. It's such a lovely detail to his character, staying true to the original concept of "a young boy with two very different potentials inside him, struggling to find a balance between them". Even when he's given in to the bad side of himself, submitting control to anyone other than himself, a small part of him still refuses to fully give in. It also shows that unlike the other Ncorp members who use pride on their main skills, representing how they genuinely take pride in their fanaticism, Nclair doesn't take pride in lowering his SP and becoming more fanatic, he becomes gloomful when doing that. The only time he feels genuine pride is when he stands up for himself and says "Enough...".
Great read op, that's actually also such a great view into what is otherwise his other possibility. Now you've made me interested in doing this myself, analysing the character's sin affinities and what it says about a person. Ultimately if you were able to make this view, I keep finding out that Limbus Company is not just an iceberg, it's an entire planet's worth of depth and greatness, from profound surface level story, to what the characters are deep down. 1 Limbillion/Project Moon would read again
I imagine that ego that the sinners use is thanks to YuRias tecnology, especially now that we know that the DD crew is working for limbus, also how temporary they are reminds me of Ezras usage of it
The reason I love the project Moon power system so much even though a lot of it is unexplained is that hypothetically anyone can become really strong if they do the right things instead of being unable to because they weren't born with the magical genetics that gives them a superpowers.
If Papa Bongy, just a chef who loved chicken and his mother could distort, imagine if he gained E.G.O. It's absolutely great how both Ayin and Carmen's Wills are being implemented around the city, while the distortions are bad, it ultimately shows that people finally have cured the sickness of the mind. Even if unhealthy, just like real life people need to be given space and time to finally grow, either by gaining E.G.O. or rejecting it entirely by realizing there is still something left of your old foundation
If Envy in the Project Mooniverse is “Taking something and making it unrecognizable“, then could the reason for there being no Peccatula for that sin be because it isnt like an independent entity, but the thing that transforms the other Peccatula into their “evolved forms“? Edit: well, I was off the mark there. The Envy Peccatula are real and they‘re *I’ll face myself - Persona 4*
Regarding greed as a sin, there is an exchange between Roland and Binah in LoR where the latter asks Roland what a man is, and while he gave a meme reply referencing Castlevania, Binah did take it seriously. Greed is desire and basically at the core of every sin; you can’t sin without wanting something. That’s why it’s not its own separate sin type, because it’s inseparable from its entirety conceptually. As for the relation between envy and charge, we do have Cathy’s commenting how Heathcliff’s comeback against Hindley about how Mr. Earnshaw loved him more ended up burying itself like thorns in the latter’s heart. Aside from the obvious resemblance in imagery for the icon used to represent envy in-game, it also clearly portrayed Hindley’s envy as something that festered and built up inside him over the years, that led to both his own worsening condition and his increasing hatred of Heathcliff. Envy, once it takes root, only becomes stronger and more painful over time, so its connection to charge may lay there.
Greed could also be missing for another reason. Limbus company contains references to the Divine Comedy, in which Dante travels through the different layers of hell. What if The City is the layer of Greed? It certainly seems to be ruled by Greed in most aspects, meaning that having Greed is simply expected and not exceptional, it's not worthy of note because it's everywhere.
It should be noted that electricity is likely so closely related to Envy because envy stems from coveting something that someone has that you do not; that there is at least a perceived difference between yourself and another. The force behind electricity is voltage, which is a difference in electrical potential. Electrical current flows because the most positively charged end of a circuit lacks the electrons present at the most negative end.
The way I see it? The reason the Sinners can use EGO the way they do and Sins the way they do is because of a combination of their pact with Dante…and the fact they’re highly emotional. In a world full of emotionally dead bureaucrats and ruthless thugs, the Sinners are very bad at keeping their emotions in check. Gregor running away from the false apple because of his trauma. Rodya killing the old lady. Don at the checkpoint and in the pawn shop. Ishmael through nearly all of canto 5. Heathcliff’s rage attack during the first combat encounter with the Erlking. They’re not emotionally stable. They’re volatile and let their emotions take the reigns- that’s why they’re spitting out Sin fragments left and right, and why they can gain power through “emotional attachment” to literal inhuman monsters. It’s what makes them different from everyone else. They’re all extremely emotionally driven.
@@luckyalvin3947 it seems he is bottling up his emotions I havent read his book so I lack every single inch of context, but It seems as he is "heartless" just because he has lost direction, to experience everything, just to feel something, rather, feel satisfaction He does experience emotions, it just that he bottles them up, he us too pridefull to show them, they arent a problem right? He is a sinner because he problably signed the contract to finally find prupose/pleasure in life That is why he seeks guideance/someone to tell him stuff to do While he has a rutine, he is directionless Yet that doesnt mean the bottle, the bucket of his emotions he carries isnt getting heavier It's a bitt similar to roland, to "unmask" his emotion idk I read it as that because I can relate to it a bit
@@TheVandive hmmm.... Meursault in The Stranger by Albert Camus has difficulties in recognizing social rules and norms. Moral and those tidbits. Emotion too. Imagine a high functioning psychopath, that couldn't recognize affective side of psychology and perform mainly on logical and cognitive function (though Meursault is kinda illogical. Why would you shoot an Arab just because the sun is hot?)
@@TheVandive he wanted to understand "emotion" and in the case of Limbus Company, "willingness to trust others" (In the sense that he must stop thinking that having others order him to do things is the right thing because he is the only one capable of doing so, a case of Pride). I suspect LCB Meursault in the past is extremely restricted and under great amount of prejudice, this causes him to adopt of mentality of binding himself to others' command (Chains of Others)
@@TheVandive In summary, he suffers from the society's expectation of him, which he fails to deliver. He must learn to live for himself, instead of bowing to the contempt from others
I'm not sure of the exact etymology for calling the Sinners as they are, but iirc, the KR word that refers to the goofs is translated as "Prisoners." Might be related to how they're bound by contract (save for Faust?) to Limbus Company. edit: LMAO the pre and post-canto VI reactions. At this point, you could be the MatPat of PM.
"Prisoners" definitely lines up with the sprites on each of their personal EGOs, though the intentional choice to use "Sinners" in the English translation over prisoners is interesting.
I think there's some truth to that. At the same time, we might be able to interpret prisoner in a few ways, both being literal and being chained to the past
@@corvidreactor7356 I think you might be onto something. After all, Faust's [Representation Emitter] is the only ego that doesn't have the barbed wire in the foreground.
@@longlivethe9989 yes but in the story Faust doesn't become bound till the end of their life for eternity in hell so potentially LimbFaust is unbound until the end of the road
That's crazy. I just assumed that Vergilius's shin just uses Wrath but no i completely missed this detail. I love that the sinners can channel this very own sin power thing they got going on that no one but themselves can use. And every sins having their unique usage and not just skittles colored skills.
I like how fair project moons power system is by that I mean people don't have to be born with a special trait to become strong all they have to do is take the right actions.
I just googled. Guess who is the demon of envy? _Leviathan._ So, we're going to have our big reveal after all, I guess. Or, perhaps, someone more knowledgeable of the comics might help with this theory.
Cinq Sinclair has the ring on his S3, could be something more realized with higher upties. Also, the contract never mentioned de-powering anyone, Dante thought it, but Dante is not a reliable narrator in this scenario, if Faust said it, it'd be a different story.
If a character has 5+ Sin, they take damage equal to 10% of their Max. HP at the start of the Scene, and all Sin is removed from them. Sin can be transferred to another character by attacking and damaging them. (Once per page) Your welcome
One thing Ive always liked about Project Moon is the use of colors to symbolize the persons sin, its very interesting as it continues through their games.
Something to note is that personal E.G.O Manifestation as a concept will most likely be linked intimately with "Shin" once we get our first sinner's partial form. After all, it is only manifested through self-actualization, so using your memories and emotions for devastating attacks wouldn't be a new thing. That idea does leave with a question though: what connections do those with "the Sign"(tm) like Demian and his faction have with it? After all, the dude summons a LOT more light rings than any of the characters before and even after the times he's used "Shin", and somehow NClair is able to partially make it visible to everyone to see while ours and other Sinclairs don't as of now, yet he didn't use it.
A little late to the party but I have insights of the sins based off from other people and it does a good job of explaining it. Though the 7 deadly sins are indeed something that is deemed wrong, I'm more keen on it being a trait that keeps our humanity in check. Wrath represents indignation, rebellion, and the overall determination of the human mind. It also represents spite as well, and is usually deemed as movement-heavy with regards to emotions. Lust is basically just desires made manifest, or the concept of happiness. Enjoyment of something temporary or the ecstasy of something greater, it doesn't matter. What matters is the user's desires for something they truly want. Sloth represents the inaction of one's self, only doing it when needed. Truly unbothered by literally everything, it defines the user's inactivity towards something; although it cannot be summarized as laziness alone. Gluttony represents obsession, whether big or small. Insight and instincts are the ones usually being the dependent variable to gluttony, never enough and wanting more and more as time goes on, never full, but always hungry. Gloom, although seen already as the embodiment of sadness, can be seen as desperation, grief and suffering. Pride is seen as this somewhat of a desire behind a mask that uses whims before anything and disregarding the consequences rather than overestimating oneself, basically neglecting everything around for a bit that they wish to commit. Envy, although not seen clearly, is more or less on the context of a reactionary force or being controlled by an outside force, just like puppets waiting to be moved. In terms of reactionary force, it utilizes the feelings of others rather than oneself.
About the "shin" part, i think its the idea of manifesting mind upon the world. The peak of which would be E.G.O. (resulting in ego being called upon by using sin) but we've seen partial/incomplete manifestations before. I'd go even further to say that sin would be the bad memories and emotions used to push your mind over the edge in order to manifest ego in the heat of the battle
I’ve heard Shin be described as “the purest manifestation of Light one can use” because you have to take in the good and bad emotions of your “core memories” and combine them into rings of Light to propel your attacks. From that perspective, it would be pretty much describable only as “the middle-ground between E.G.O and Distortion”, with Sin being more lenient towards the Distortion side and E.G.O Awakening being an LCB technology to transform those negative feelings into positive ones temporarily, allowing for use of E.G.O without having to face your trauma
I have never seen a setting where are power system is literally added into the world liken the project Moon world. For example haki in one piece it's kind of similar to shin and even though it takes a while to get properly introduced to haki and how it works it kind of just always existed in the world of One piece but but as far as I know shin and distortions/e.g.o are actually very new in the history of the city which I think is a very interesting way to introduce a power system.
"You show me a book where a character lives a happily ever after and i don't call that a magnum opus, that's just Shrek" Bro's implying Shrek is NOT a magnum opus wtf
I feel like this video is flawed due to 2 big things. First one is not mentioning the other most likely reason for sinners EGO to work like that, which is YuRia's forcefull EGO awakening technology. That seems like a good reason as to why they work differently, because those EGOs are being forced out, at a cost. Now, this second reason is most important, and that is neglecting to mention one of the most important sources of information on what the sins represent: Sign of Roses More specifically the passives of each particular roses. I cant really check to verify every detail but I will fact check this later no worries. What you said about Wrath is mostly right, but the rose also puts emphasis in hatred AND self destruction is notably the passive name of the gloom rose. Which makes sense. NClair, Erlking... They both use gloom skills. Lust I think you got mostly wrong. Lust (and as with everything this is my interpretation, not fact) is Desire. Ambitions. The Peccatula was many arms reaching out, ready to take things in. Vergilius us reminded of the children *wanting* him to smile. Kromer's Desire and ambition is the wholeness of humanity. Garden of Thorns is Lust because of how the Abnormality says that we all have desires (sin) and rejecting them is rejecting yourself What is Gluttony then? Gluttony is need meanwhile, which differentiates it from lust just enough. Greed falls into this too because... Its the city. Hunger is just a need for food afterall. Though just because you need It doesnt mean your desire for it cant exceed what you actually need. Sloth doesnt seem to overlap with Gloom as much as you said. Sloth is not acting for yourself more than anything, while also not wanting change. Mindlessly obeying orders is classified as sloth, which can be seen by which kinds of enemies and identities have it. Gloom there isnt much to say beyond the emphasis on self destruction seen on the roses. Pride and Envy are meanwhile hinted to be opposites by the roses. Pride is feelings of supperiority, yes, while Envy is feelings of Inferiority. The reason heathcliff is associated with Envy is due to how he sees himself. The members of the middle use Envy because their reliance on their family. Queequeg is indentified with envy due to her hating what she did with the middle, and wanting atonement. The connection with Charge I think strengths this. Charge units are nothing without charge. They heavily depend on it. Now, this doesnt mean the video isnt a good analysis, of course. Specially regarding the Leviathan stuff. I just thought I would point out that overlooking the Abnormality most closely associated with sin (and the only one to have 1 skill of each affinity) kind of brings It down a bit
Seen and appreciated. All I can say is that I'm regularly surprised about what new sources folks will make me aware of after posting And damn, of course it'd be from the last PM story I haven't fully absorbed, and an Abno that flew under the radar for this. These are probs the details I'll use most when we touch back on this idea in the City's power system.
@@FreyCheqama Glad to see you saw this! I just checked the passives of each rose and yeah, remembered them correctly. What I did not remember were the skill names (which is understandable as they are a bit disappointing with only the sin name plus another word in all cases) Here are all the passives for anyone that doesnt want to have to check 7 different pages for the name of some passives: All: Blooming Sins and Rose on a vine Wrath: Embers, Boiling Wrath, Hatred Lust: Shimmering Lust, Onesided Desire Sloth: Crushing Sloth, Powerless Gluttony: Growing Gluttony, Hunger Gloom: Shimmering Gloom, Anxiety, Self Destruction (me too gloom drenched rose, me too) Pride: Overinflated Pride, Outlash, Superiority Envy: Glaring Envy, Jealousness, Inferiority Complex A bit sad that there are some like lust sloth and gluttony only have 1 passive besides the obligatory "sin name + adjetive" passive, but atleast the other ones are pretty juicy.
I don't know really how to explain it, bit imo, if abnormality/E.G.O/distortion etc. can be compared to building, sins in that case would be individual bricks. In other words, sin is the smallest unit of consciousness/mind/emotion that Light can operate with.
It could be storing grudges resentment desires wishes in till you belive the time is right doing massive damage but without preparation for vengeance or some backing it will fall flat be useless and could harm you more envy is the sin that is all/connects to all outher sins it is all and nothing
I'm betting sins are just representations of emotions, kinda like expanded emotion level system from ruina and shin fuels them directly into power without needing ego. Ego use them to be able to synchronize with abnormalities and thoughts+emotions they represent P.S I'd also say that lust represents being blinded by passion and positive emotions in general, two groups most prominently using them are liu and shi, both very closely knit associations
Great vid, tho i have a kind of different approach when analyzing the Sin Attributes. The Sins aside from related to the emotion, they could related to an element in your standard RPG game, With Wrath is Fire, Lust is Blood/Physical/Flesh, Sloth is Earth, Gluttony is Plant/Nature, Gloom is Water, Pride is Air or Metal and Envy is Electricity or Thunder. With the associated status effect to match. -Sloth is Earth, the status related to it is Tremor but it is also called Vibration in Korean, tremor is used as a charge stand-in because it's sort-of a game mechanic representation of engine reving, bell chimes and rustling of tree branches. -Pride is Air, the Poise status is called Breath in Kr, it represent breathing, calm mind, deep concentration and luck. almost every pride ego gifts in the game currently are Breathing Aids or Luck related items.
In Distortion Detective, Moses notes that sadness usually translates to water in Distortions. Similar connections could be made with other Sins present in Distortions (another comment talked about it, even using it to theorize a possible appearance for a Peccatulum Invidiae (It’s an armor set covered in chains pretending to be human due to its envy of what it can’t be))
I know there's been writeups on other sites like Tumblr about what each sin means. Pride meaning ignoring risks, Envy being about reacting to the actions of another, Gloom being about losing control to negative emotions while Lust being the loss of control due to positive ones.
One thing I want to point out, the description of EGO on the Limbus promotional website implies that Limbus EGOs are what happen if you try to wield an abnormality as an ID, you can do it, but it wont last long before becoming unstable or breaking.
I wonder if the reason we see Wrath on Vergilius skills is because the sinners are filling in the blanks they can't fully understand Shin, so they assume it is something like Wrath since they know him as the Red Gaze which they associate with Wrath
9:47 I have also been told religious philosophers also associate Sloth with spiritual Laziness and procrastination. The saying “the Devil makes work of idle hand” refers to the belief that people with too much free time (medieval people not using to work or praying) tend to get into crime, sinful hedonism, or wasting on some other thing deemed frivolous by the community when jobs like farming require making every hour count. (I can see how most things done for the self and not for powers can fall under Sloth, like T corp would dislike it.) Hope this is helpful if get stumbled why something was classified as sloth.
That description of envy is actually pretty accurate to theological take on it. Like envy the sin of coveting what others have isn't related to trying to steal what others have, its related to things like slander and wanting to take down a peg or ruin people who you perceive having what you want.
“Envy isn’t wanting to live as well as others: It’s wanting them to live as badly as you” -Emotionary (iirc) “You must suffer… like I have” -Roland from Library of Ruina on the Nintendo Switch, channeling the sin of Envy
Interesting analysis. Though I'd like to point out that 心 refers to heart instead of mind, though that doesn't make things any more obvious than it currently is lol.
Just an observation i've made when ask myself that question. Sins are colered like a rainbow. A Light spectrum. Which confirms that Sins originates from the Light.
Also 2 small things. I belive the circles of light are supposed to be called Mang although I dont remember what the translators notes say about it and also I find it very weird how little EGO is talked about in Limbus. Like Dante has notes on thread, threadspinning, xp tickets, we've also been told how he uses like ID tablets in his device to use the ID on the sinners, how he gets the IDs from the bus engine and we even have an explanation on how he gets free event IDs. But nothing about how he has the sinners use the egos, the sin resources or even how he gets EGO from the same place he gets IDs
I think envy is about an unbearable desire for something you don't have. Something that someone else has. And your hate for them. Your grudge against them. Your... Envy. End the more you have those grudges and the stronger your desire, the more devastating will be the moment then you will finally snap and lose it.
I say envy is basically made up of all the other sins To be envious you must be prideful enough to believe you deserve it You must be filled with lust as the all consuming desire to get it You must be greedy or glutinous to want more than you have just a bit more satisfy yourself You must be slothful enough not to work hard for it and to attempt to take it or take from outhers before outher options or after it hasn't worked after enough times Wrath for all consuming hate vitriol and outher emotions You stew in your own self pity and gloom over how you can't get it the normal regular way or you can never get it naturally And envy can harm yourself or outhers in equal measure depending on how far you plan ahead if you are blinded by your emotions and desires and act with haste you will often harm yourself but careful planning and you can ruin outhers with no harm to one self out of pure envy there is some variation between these two extremes
I've always seen Lust as embodying the base needs of humanity (the symbol being shaped like DNA, anything food related being Lust rather than glutony (both chef ID and Soup ego as well as the crab and ambling pearl predation move))
As for the sin affinities of skills, I like to think that the LCB sinners’ skills have their sins decided based on the “depth” of that sin in correspondence to the sinner and their past. If it’s skill 3, it’s their usual, most surface-level emotion, if it’s skill 2, it’s a more deeper, intimate emotion, and skill 3 is their true colors, the emotion that drives them/has driven them in the past. Rodya is a great example: Skill 1 is gluttony, skill 2 pride, skill 3 is wrath. Surface-level/commonly displayed, a little more intimate, her true nature/the driving force behind her key moment. Obviously some don’t match for the sake of in-game balancing, but most do follow this trend
Its interesting but i think we have seen envy way before in Lobotomy Corp, as the Black damage, the animation its also the same purple torns, in the distortion detective Mosses black attacks also had the same form
Moses’ pipe has 4 types of smoke, related to the 4 damage types in LC. She even describes the Pale breath as “the breath of death” (paraphrased), and is forbidden from using it by Ezra cause it shortens her lifespan every time (she still uses it like twice)
Envy can build up because of wanting things that others have and at some point it can be destructive to you and others thats why i think charge is the main of envy but i think envy is like greed because of discontent
To elaborate more on the last comment: Kromer didn't *need* to become obsessed with "human wholeness," she didn't need to kill the townsfolk of Kalf and only does so to satisfy her own desires and ideals of a "perfect" humanity free of "impurity." So she embodies a desire that is "higher" than need. Dongrang, meanwhile, prioritized his own survival and well-being to secure a cushy job at K. Corp. even at the cost of his friends and even most of the City through K. Corp's technology and what it enables. He does not care that others are hurt, so long as HE comes out ahead. Survival, while necessary, shouldn't be at the cost of others, hence Denies All being a Gluttony-EGO and Dreamer of Human Wholeness being Lust.
The Boughs can connect people/minds.. Just as it was intuitively said before the last boss of Canto 6... It must be that facilitated connection that allows the sinners to use E.G.O. like that.
My guess is that sinners use a certain type of shin because most of them are quite young and haven't experienced a variety of trauma (yet) while someone like vergilius lived long enough to have balance in his shin abilities.
Kinda interesting that base Kromer before she resonated with bough is full Pride. "Beginning of humanity's transformation into prideful creatures"? Sounds like her in Canto 3.
I think envy might be litterlly envying other sins for having status effects and instead of having status effect like other sins it just does high damage (nuke skills)
You really have to take a closer look at the Identities when you learn what their skills sin affinities are. Lets take Nclair for example. His skill one is Gloom - likely his regret for listening to Kromer Faust and killing innocent people, just because they had augmentations. Skill 2, Lust - His literal Lust for power, hoping to one day be strong enough to kill kromer (faust). Skill 3, Wrath - His hatred toward Kromer (Faust), his own blind obsession that is killing more and people as he claws for power. My point is, take the time to carefully analyze, theorize and ponder an identity. :) thanks for listening
Lust represents desires, not necessarily of "need" but of "want." A lot of religious-themed Abnos have a Lust theme and of course N&H and Kromer being Lust-heavy with a Crusader motif. Gluttony, meanwhile is more directly about "need," but not always a "necessary" need. It's "need" to the point of "greed" (lol), survival even at the cost of taking from others. So, Wire Mother vs. Cloth Mother.
Envy feels more like you're bottling up all that hate, that "Envy" you have for someone until you finally get the chance to just let it all out and lay waste to that person, i'm just saying, considering charge
The attacks being not specific moves but rather thoughts or desires of characters is something that was also present in Ruina aswell, a lot of guests have pages with names that don't refer to fighting techniques or anything but rather to something they said before or their characteristics. And Angela also was amplifying librarians and guests emotions to receive more books from them while even allowing them to draw power from emotions and borrow Abnormalities powers for a short moment, just like how Limbus sins work. Also it is my understanding that PM equated Gluttony to greed, since we don't have a Greed sin in limbus. Its as if greed is so common in the City that you can hardly call it a sin, only the immeasurable desire of possessing or devouring everything in your way is.
bro, I just had a snap here and I have to share none of the base E.G.Os are/have (I dunno which use in this case) Wrath Afinity like, there's some that consume Wrath, but none IS Wrath
Personaly, i dont see Shin as related to Sin Sin: emotion related to the action Shin: SHEER WILLPOWER. Thus why people not directly EGO related will be able to use it,as most people who watch anime have point out its similarity to one piece and hunter x hunter system where "Shin" is just a neutral will power expresion of power. Now, the reason why sinner are affected by Sin and use Sin seems to be their tie to dante and the golden bows, as most regular humans DONT have afinities on Sin, yet we see their attack have sin afinity as they affect the sinner. As of how EGO works, is that Dante can collect and return the emotion in especific amount thus triggering EGO manifestation. Same with passives, SPECIALLY RESONANCE, as Dante make the emotion tied to the sinner reververate trought the chain of skill thus amplifying it. Or in the case of pasives BORROWING certain skills, like bas Ryoshu 3 Glutonny grant a deploy sinner a damage buff, the same that she does when she get a Glutony resonance. And we have more extreme cases like Gregor who literally grant regeneration as long as the emotions tied to his own regenerative factor are present. So in sintesis they all works the same way, as emotion afect literal reality, yet sin is tied to a spectrum, and Shin is either a neutral of bacant of emotion, being just sheer willpower. Ps: originaly Greed as a sin DIDNT EXIST, as in limbus Gloom, existed. Yet with the profiletaration of Burguess (Merchant replacing noble "blood rights) and later rebranding as capitalism, the sin of Greed, or the want of monetary/materialistic gain become its own distinction. And gloom, or melancoly, asociated with depresion was ignore and forgoten as the new lifetile of debauchery that high class permite make so this wasnt even conciderz thus beig erase from the public mindset. Ps: 2, in the detective novel, last publish chapter is talk about Envy, tied to neurosis and the want to harm with intent, while wrath is just chaotic destruction, envy is tied to a person or object, more and aspect of society than just natural exoresion
In Korean, the sinners are instead called ‘Prisoners’, signifying they’re a prisoner of their past. I think the English team wanted to connect them to Dante’s Inferno
So here is my thoughts on what Sin is and what sin affinities are. One thing that stood out to me was something Binah mentioned back in Lob corp about how the inventions of the backstreets could be wielded against the abnormalities. It makes me think that whether the characters recognize it or not all of the weapons resonate with the mind and emotions in some way. But it also has been making me wonder how the components of the workshop weapons are made. I know that from Ruina that Color tier fabric can be made by the carnival carefully selecting individuals with certain personalities to create clothes that embody the powers of that person. And from Limbus that the Gnomes could make almost anything from living humans including workshop gear (if they weren’t lying about that). The other thing piece of evidence supporting this is how one’s Sanity greatly affects how effective ones combat prowess. Granted I don’t fully know what Sanity represents in limbus company or if it represents different things for different IDs. Like Ting Tang Hong Lu when he’s at max sanity clashing higher than most ego while flailing his knife around on a whim (although I don’t necessarily know if he’s using wish stickers like our world’s ting tang gang). Just some fun thoughts keep up the good content ^^
Fun fact: When it comes to Gloom being here as a replacement, that actually didn’t come out of nowhere. In Orthodox Christianity, there’s actually an 8th deadly sin that is meant to be the worst of all; *Despair.* Otherwise called Gloom. In most other branches it’s considered as a part of Sloth. Though I do agree PM did a good job differentiating the two. And I do agree that getting rid of Greed was probably the right call upon thinking about it. I personally consider Lust, Gluttony, and Greed to be different aspects of the same idea, that being, a strong desire gone wrong. For Gluttony, it’s excess or anything that can be consumed, which can include food, but also other things like media or resources. For Lust, it’s for more abstract things that can give you pleasure in general, which can include sex, power, or even bloodlust, stuff like that. And for Greed, its material wealth and status. Upon thinking about it like that, it becomes a lot more obvious how difficult it would be to turn that into a gameplay mechanic, at least for Limbus. Anyways, this has been your Deadly Sin Seminar (Sin-minar?) by your local Catholic, sorry about the tangents lol, I just think the LBC sins are neat
Random out of character tangent: The color coding of the sins in Limbus also messes me up because I am super into Evillious Chronicles and all the sin contractors there have color schemes that don’t match with the sins in Limbus company at all so I’ll look at envy and go “ah yes that’s Duke Venomania” (actually kinda fitting if you know his backstory)
What do you MEAN we got jack shit about envy skills!? Literally every aspect of Heathcliff's chapter was all about Envy!!! The envious way Hindley views Heathcliff's role in the house, and how Heathcliff deliberately twists Hindley's familial love into a lingering ember of hatred for everyone. Nelly envious of the power and freedom afforded to everyone else around her while she's getting crushed under the endless weight of the Butler's contract, envying everyone else in *all* worlds because there is no way (she can see) that she makes it out of this life OK. And of course Heathcliff and [ ][ ][ ][ ][ ] both envying themselves and each other, refusing to actually communicate to realize that their love isn't unrequited, it's just under the surface! Regardless, I'm glad you're doing actual content instead of AI-driven slop again, please keep that up. :V
edit: for some reason i saw the name and thumbnail and expected the sins to be some weird name for mang so thats why i was talking about mang i only know of mang from leviathan but my personal opinion is i think its something similiar to ego but for the weird sin stuff that limbus has with the sin-based abnoes(?) and all the other stuff or like its just sorta pieces of ego made manifest whether the person is determined enough to manifest or not
Huh, I've always interpreted Lust as some form of "passion"? That's the only explanation I have that actually makes sence for Don and Ryoshu's base ego to have
12 - Sinners 12 - Apostles Clock imagery Heavenly theming Hellish theming Y‘know i dont really believe it myself but… I feel like theres something there. Just getting this weird feeling y‘know?
I remember that there was that theory of the sinners being an ideal dough aka not needing to clear the "base" to refract an id to them, tho it's probably not that
This video made some really nice points, but felt like it frequently went far left field after each one. Especially heartbroken that you made the point about the unique way that the sinners use ego resources for EGO attacks, but then don't stick to it. Additionally, we've seen multiple bosses & even Verg in Leviathan use EGO so it's not like EGO is restricted to our sinners, if anything we're doing it in a very forceful if not inefficient way since enemies keep it up for entire battles while ours is turn by turn & harm our sanity majorly for even that short period of time. All enemies, additionally, use sin affiliate skills. They may not use EGO attacks with those resources produced by it but it doesn't seem like the use of sin to do basic attacks is particularly unique. Shin being referred to as the power of sin through me off guard but I still think ultimately your best points when you went through the in universe definitions of each sin type rather than trying to explain what the skittles packet is & why our sinners have a unique form of it. That all being said, loved your definitions for the sins in Limbus Company & what it means in lore for Sinners to use EGO attacks.. even if I'm very upset you brought up one piece & didn't associate Shin with Haki.
Hey, I appreciate you taking the time to be thoughtful about the video and say something. I was concerned on this one with the delivery and worried about clarity. And it seems that while many enjoyed it, it didn't hit the mark for everyone. But, I DO want to at least give ya some peace on those topics. The reference to characters using EGO was on specifically using Sin resources for EGO rather than the ability to use EGO itself. I was hoping showing the CG with Verg would be enough with implying. But with something going public, there isn't a huge replacement for exact wording /gen. Every character, down to Rats, also does make use of Sin, though not consciously. It's moreso that the use and awareness of Sin and Sin resources are what's specific to the Sinners in both EGO and Passives. Again, this was an instance where telling is worth the effort. As for One Piece, Haki's a much better analogy. But ik not as many people know about Haki since it comes up about halfway in. So I just used Devil Fruits since even non OP fans know about those. Thanks again for being thoughtful. I'm taking the next 11 months or so to keep testing videos in different ways to feel out as much as possible, so talking about this stuff makes a diff. Have a good one!
It was March of this year before Canto 6 came out. Ngl, the phrasing suffered a bit when trying to update it, but I think we only got the announcement after 2024 started
I am still confused to as why project moon made this new sin rings system, but am I allowed to assume that everyone including Roland and iori knows how to use the rings
I feel like envy is an sin that needs something to build it up for its max potential like with w don you build up charge to do the most damage and rcorp Heathcliff with rupture witch is debatable and dechi rodion with the books. anyways I am getting ahead of my self or over thinking it.
Envy is a weird sin, even if the weirdest probably goes to Gloom in a classical sense. Envy is one of the more insidious sins, by that i mean that their effect isn't immediately apparent, and usually requires a build up to a large effect, this is similar to Sloth and Pride in the current Sin List. Simillarly Tremor and Poise also need a build up like with Charge before getting let out. Also i a classical sense Envy is the want of something someone else has. unlike Gluttony or Greed that is the excessive accumulation of something, Envy is the excessive want of something you yourself don't have, usually that others do. It is an inward turning sin looking at your worst traits or things you lack. It does make Envy one fo the weirdest to give a solid definition to due to it's dual nature as being an outward facing sin but at the same time equally inward facing. I do feel that it does go with the whole Twisting things, but i feel it is more twisting a person's view, amplifying the bad and decreasing the good. We probably don't have any Peccatulla representation fo Envy due to its insidious nature, but unlike Sloth and Pride and even GLoom that one can see the signs of relatively quickly, Envy is harder to find and it waits for the critical build up before exploding, like CHarge, one could say that the expression of Envy ends up being on of the other sins. Being angry at those who have what you want, stealing it from others, falling into sadness at the lack of it. It's a weird sins all in, all I do hope we see some more on it in the future.
Somehow, Leviathan keeps on giving.
That's what peak fiction does
Headcanon detected
can't wait for the envy video
Of course the crusty old Fixer who's actually OP has a number of things that are going to be useful at some point, especially from his past.
forensic skill is gluttony, make sense if you want more evidence with legal way or illegal way just for murdering people, desire to get more clue ? but there kinda error here. maybe the key word here " want more " so many glutton combine with greed somehow.
"I just feel bad, that's not a sin!"
Roland, you murdered thousands
Roland: well… That’s that and This is this
You forgot to mention that dongrang distortion embodies the sin of gluttony
You right, I got blinded by Kromer
And I think both Doggocliff and SIMPiercliff both embodies Envy in different ways: both can't obtain what they want the most, making it everyones' problem to a self-destructive degree but not actually looking for a solution or a way to obtain it, the difference being how they went about expressing it.
Linto, Hindley, Cathy, and Nelly also show different aspects of Envy and how they deal with imo.
@@Dadan-danIt's an effloresced ego / ego awakening, not a distortion, btw.
@@FreyCheqama DAMMIT KROMER WHY DID YOU HAVE TO BE BRIGHTER THAN THE SUN!?
@@Xanthopathyhe does distort before he effloresces I think
I sure do love how chibi Rodya became a transition for many PM creators.
The reason why the Sinners can’t harness “Shin” as of right now is because they don’t know the direct methods of doing so.
Shin requires you to channel Light in a fashion that combines both trauma and treasured memories together, creating a harmonious strike that ends up as the rings.
Essentially, Shin is the in-between of harnessing E.G.O and Distorting.
Since manifesting E.G.O requires you to accept and resolve your own inner turmoil, and Distorting is denying yourself of that personal catharsis, this means Shin is that raw, unfettered strength that comes from positive and negative emotions.
Whereas E.G.O and Distortion shapes and molds itself to the user, Shin remains the same regardless of who uses it. It is the Seed of Light in it’s purest form.
So it's the "sin" of indecision.
Or perhaps the fruit of knowledge, burdening people with the freedom to choose and change their mind.
For your question on Forensics:
Reminder that 7 Assoc. Heathcliff is very much intent on solving whatever case he was given, and Forensics is typically associated with investigating, or gaining knowledge on a subject through observing or testing, in order to solve some kind of crime or mystery.
(The exact definition or Forensic is: 'scientific tests or techniques used in connection with the detection of crime.'
I don't think any information group would willingly turn down information on a case, especially when they're actively researching it, hence why forensics is more gluttonous than anything else in his kit. It's him searching and taking the information he gained from investigating (Hence why he has the papers in his hands for only this skill.)
Anyways, this just an occasional Limbus commenter who happened to take a small Forensics class, and have a good day/night.
THANK YOU. I don't think there's going to be any better answer than that
@@FreyCheqama I’ll do you one better, or at least a TL;DR. Forensics is Gluttony affinity because 7Cliff just friggin’ wants to get the investigative part of the case over with and finally get to the part where he gets to crack some skulls.
I can think of one other way it could be seen.
Based off of his story, (I feel like) he wants to prove that those 'masterminds' can be taken out by... if I remember correctly he calls himself a hillbilly or something like that. Either way, I could see it as him seeking the satisfaction of taking down those self-righteous overconfident people and tearing down what they thought was unable to fail, or that someone not as 'noble' (lacking the right word) would be able drag them down.
@@neroesthepangolinmaster He wants his life to be a series of episodes of Columbo, the arrogant and the rich being caught by a bumpkin that doesn't even seem that smart or capable at first glance.
@@chhite7590That's a good alibi mate, I'll go back to the office, oh and just one more thing-
"Why are they called sinners"
2 points to note on this.
One in Korean and Japanese the word used is apparently prisoner (with connotations to sinner).
But secondly I think they are sinners because they've all comitted some kind of act they personally see as bad.
Going in order of cantos so far:
- Gregor has run away from those who looked up to them and also killed several innocent people never intending to do anything but run from the problem (Sloth)
- Rodion killed a tax collecter linked to the middle causing her homeplace to get slaughtered out her desire to feel special to feel like she changed things for the better (Pride)
- Sinclair desire for attention (gluttony same as Dongrang) caused the deaths of his family by leaking confidential information and (unknowinglly assisting the would be killer)
- Yi Sang contributed to the defilement of his own technology after being broken by the circumstances of the league out of Sloth
- Ishmael gave up her own purpose in life, stuck herself in the past and let her path be decided by another (Gloom)
- Heathcliffs envy caused his rift with Catherine by preventing him from having a conversation with her at the thought she might love another
Everyone in the city has sins and everyone in the city will continue to sin.
Sin is an inevitability because even good intentions have casualties in the current state of the city.
What matters is if people can recognise and accept the weight of their sins, that's what grants one EGO.
That's also what makes the sinners are special because they not only recognise their sins but they feel guilt to them yet they weren't brought to a confrontation point (hence they didn't distort or gain EGO) before making a contract with Dante.
In fact it seems like the boughs themselves act specifically to bring them to that confrontation point.
I would argue that Sinclair's sin of gluttony is moreso him being unsatisfied/afraid of the changes in his relatively idyllic life (his family getting prosthesises) and in an effort to avoid confronting those changes and his desire to return to the way his life was before, he ends up dooming and destroying what he was attempting to preserve.
Sinclair' gluttony is based around his desire for safety and innocence, and it is his desire to have those things in excess that causes him to make a deal with Kromer.
I would say ishmael’s more wrath. It’s been shown several times that she wants nothing but stab ahab with a harpoon. Yes, she is sad of the deaths of her peers, but she’s mainly livid about ahab being the one who did it
@@evalyne1105 Ishmael has aspects of wrath but they don't really play that much a part into what she considers to be her sin.
Her wrath wasn't what caused her circumstances after all, it was a reaction to them.
Her gloom however is what caused her to lose her own compass and led her to join the pequod in the first place.
It also led to her falling to Ahabs command during the journey and led the rest of the pequod to their doom.
Three months in the future, and the WARP Train event may have confirmed the connection between Lust and the desire for Humanity.
i think Envy correlating to charge is about hiding your intentions, hiding your jealousy, envy to others, to then finally be able to release all of it, like storing charge and then dumping it all onto one powerful skill. Much like Heathcliff who has been holding back, almost not wanting to come to the manor to see Cathy, but once he's in there and set to find her, he's DEAD set on finding her, doing whatever it takes to do so, releasing everything he got left in him to go and find her.
I believe lust is only a strong desire, an obsession. A hyperfixation actively on your mind that you crave to fix.
While gluttony is an endless urge that won't be satisfied. Gaining more still leaves you unhappy, so you keep eating and eating. It's a pursuit of more rather than a solid fixation.
This yeah. Lust is the pursuit of desire/pleasure. Gluttony is the pursuit of excess. In that sense, you could probably say that PM wrapped up Greed and Gluttony into the same Sin, to make sense for Gloom.
To use NFaust/Kromer as an example, her passives are Lust based because her character is all about chasing the righteous, twisted satisfaction she feels when purging heretics.
Whereas Sinclair is based around Gluttony because his sin was kickstarted by him wanting more attention, and based around him being unsatisfied with his current (relatively idyllic life) and making a metaphorical pact with the devil so he could avoid confronting the parts of his life he was unsatisfied with.
I always read lust in Limbus as the idea of perversion of things. This is why Don’s and Ryoshu’s ego are based on it because it’s their ideals/visions. It could simply be just about their ideals but I like the idea of them being slightly warped/wrong with Ryoshu seeing it as art when we see murder and Don seeing a bright fun jousting when we see all the blood spilled she brutally stabs out of her opponent.
This video is just a chance for Frey to flex how they read Leviathan before it was cool and honestly they're so real for that
The reason that Envy is so elusive in the form of Peccatula is because the self needs to remain in-tact to have something to be envious about. you must know what you have to realize someone has something you dont. However, there is one way to fulfill the condition of losing one's sense of self during Distortion to become a peccatula, while at the same time distorting due to the sin of Envy, and that's abjection: becoming envious of humanity as a whole, seeing yourself as less than human. Sound familiar?
It is my assertion that Heathcliff, The Heartbroken is a Sin-aligned Distortion, similar to Kromer, Dreamer of Human Wholeness and Dongrang, Who Denies All. Hindley distorted towards envy but because he could realize that Heathcliff took his home, violin, et cetera, he didnt have the taint of sin and he *just* became a dog as Hindley, The Reaved Lamenter. However, Heathcliff's Distortion has elements of Envy Sin alignment along with the things he thinks of himself, the sack of flesh, the barbed wire, the wolf-like creature, that's all Heathcliff's part of the distortion. However, there are clashing elements in here as well. the Chain, the Spikes along the wolf's flesh, the armor plating, nothing in Heathcliff's backstory would explain these things in the same way as the other features.
Think back to Dongrang, Who Denies All. He has the clothing, he has the reaping scythe, he has the cow features, all important to Dongrang. However, then there was the Peccatula Gulae-like appearance underneath the facade of the clothing and hat, the vine-like arms. While part of the distortion is his own, part of it has been taken over by his sin of Gluttony as he distorted. If we take that concept, apply it to Heathcliff, The Heartbroken, then work backwards, we can reach a vauge conclusion of what a pure Envy Peccatula would look like if someone became envious of humanity to the point of full Sin Distortion: a sentient hollow shell, a living suit of armor covered in spikes and chains, an imitation of the human that it so longingly wishes to be, but cant.
Yeah that sounds like envy hollow and harmful
That envy exactly sounds like what Narcissists are like. A shell of barbed armor with nothing beneath, by making such a facade due to envy their original self is gone. Its all smoke and mirrors, and due to such envy they gave away what they were to be something they aren't.
That in turn would also explain why Envy Peccatulas would be so horrifically rare. Because in order to truly attain a Peccatula, you have to become so lost in sin that you have 0 ability to come back from it.
It is far easier to become a Wrathful Peccatula because you become so consumed by Wrath that you become a monster for example (you end up losing the side that makes you human). On the other hand, it is harder to become an Envy Peccatula because the sin itself wants you to be driven towards that sin to embody it, which will just Distort you instead.
In order for an Envy Peccatula to even occur, the individual must be both consumed by Envy and have utterly 0 drive to accept the fact that he is envious towards a particular group, which are both contradictory conditions given the nature of Envy.
@@MrZalgo-ml2iw yeah the best way to consistently make envy peccatula would to use a gnome or similar being if that is even possible or feasible because do they count as a human and depending on that answer causes potentially more questions
If they do count can they distort and gain EGO
If not what does it truly take to get envy peccatula
@@MrZalgo-ml2iw which is why the only way to even begin to sin distort aligned with Envy is to be envious of Humanity in and of itself, which is proportionally exceedingly rare compared to being lost in other sins
"I'm seeing this as envy being about taking something seen as good, useful, or wholesome and twisting it into something unrecognizable."
You described envy in a way I haven't seen before and I liked it. Fortune and wellbeing, when taken by envy, is quickly distorted into a new torment; its thorn-laden brambles wrap around the mind of its bearer, filling it with resentment towards those who have it better; those who walk unburdened by the bitter, hollow feeling..
It is one of the seven deadly sins after all :)
10:57 Gluttony is generally associated with 7 association and their constant search of information to sell to the highest bidder. It's just that Heathcliffs particular speciality, crime investigation, isn't usually associated with the knowledge brokering.
10:45, I believe the reason his S3 is Gluttony is because of what makes Gluttony unique compares to Lust, as both sorta feel rather similar, being "a powerful desire for something". Lust represents a "desire for something" and is the passion that fuels your action to get that thing, whereas Gluttony is more like the actual action of "getting the thing", but with the added detail of over-collecting it beyond what is really needed. 7Cliff's S3 is Forensics, which is the methods and tests performed in order to learn more about a crime and build a case. From his dialogue, he's shown to be REALLY obsessed with solving cases, as his morning line has him ask you to not disturb him since he's figuring a case out, his afternoon line is him has him being really overdue for one of his cases, and his evening line says he can't sleep at all because the case keeps nagging at his mind. When defeated he laments how odd it is that things deviated from "the patterns", and he's constantly talking about how his intuition was right all along from the start, even before he solved anything.
From his Identity story: "After a life like that... the hows and whys of a murder scene just come naturally to me. It's just intuition, nothing more. But I'm not like the armchair detectives in those mystery novels. It's not like I can figure out the whole scene and scheme from a glance. Sometimes clues get lost in the whole mess, and... Gah, my head... Calling me a 'profiler', whatever that means... Forcing me to write these reports every damn day... I'm about to lose it."
7Cliff's entire method of investigating is basically "The vibes/broad details suggest it's going to be X kind of situation, so collect as much info as possible about the situation. Then he looks at the evidence and allows his intuition to figure out what evidence is actually important and what exactly occurred". He might not present himself as a "proper investigator" like 7Outis or 7Faust do, and he may struggle to really explain how all the clues fit together to others, but he knows they do " 'cause that's how it always goes with these types". So his S3 is gluttony because he goes into investigations fully aware that "clues can get lost in the mess", so he aims to just gather as much random information as possible since anything could be a critical clue, and then figure out whether it's actually important to solving the case afterwards.
Also, a tiny thing, but I've always LOVED Nclair's guard. His whole identity is basically a distortion waiting to happen, Sinclair being so absolutely overwhelmed by Kromer/Nfaust and what she did that he simply gave in, submitted to her and began to base his own self-identity based entirely around what she wants from him. His skill sins are fitting, with gloom showing his despair and submission, lust to show his desire to just not face his problems and become what NFaust wanted from him, and Wrath because Sinclair has a very angry part of him deep down and now that part is allowed to run wild.
And then there's his guard, Enough..., which restores his sanity and is actually shocking powerful at a 17 roll on tails, 10 on heads meaning even on heads he still gets a damn good block effect. But importantly, it's sin affinity is Pride.
His guard is Nclair looking at himself, looking at what he became, and deciding "Enough is enough... This is going too far", using what fragments remain of his self-worth and self-confidence to stabilize his mindset and stop falling deeper and deeper into NFaust's grasp, at least for a short time.
It's such a lovely detail to his character, staying true to the original concept of "a young boy with two very different potentials inside him, struggling to find a balance between them". Even when he's given in to the bad side of himself, submitting control to anyone other than himself, a small part of him still refuses to fully give in. It also shows that unlike the other Ncorp members who use pride on their main skills, representing how they genuinely take pride in their fanaticism, Nclair doesn't take pride in lowering his SP and becoming more fanatic, he becomes gloomful when doing that. The only time he feels genuine pride is when he stands up for himself and says "Enough...".
What a read, and a newfound respect for Nclair
Great read op, that's actually also such a great view into what is otherwise his other possibility. Now you've made me interested in doing this myself, analysing the character's sin affinities and what it says about a person. Ultimately if you were able to make this view, I keep finding out that Limbus Company is not just an iceberg, it's an entire planet's worth of depth and greatness, from profound surface level story, to what the characters are deep down. 1 Limbillion/Project Moon would read again
He was also the first ID to have a sin affinity on a defense skill, and at uptie 3 i believe.
Holy shit, this is the best Nclair analysis Ive seen.
MMMMMM ITS SO GOOD
I imagine that ego that the sinners use is thanks to YuRias tecnology, especially now that we know that the DD crew is working for limbus, also how temporary they are reminds me of Ezras usage of it
Now THAT is interesting
The reason I love the project Moon power system so much even though a lot of it is unexplained is that hypothetically anyone can become really strong if they do the right things instead of being unable to because they weren't born with the magical genetics that gives them a superpowers.
Kinda reminds me of how the bright nights event wanted to uproot the current system
If Papa Bongy, just a chef who loved chicken and his mother could distort, imagine if he gained E.G.O. It's absolutely great how both Ayin and Carmen's Wills are being implemented around the city, while the distortions are bad, it ultimately shows that people finally have cured the sickness of the mind. Even if unhealthy, just like real life people need to be given space and time to finally grow, either by gaining E.G.O. or rejecting it entirely by realizing there is still something left of your old foundation
@@AedlmonrlThe chickens just end up being cooked and could sacrifice themselves to EGO Papa Bongy for him to regenerate wounds
If Envy in the Project Mooniverse is “Taking something and making it unrecognizable“, then could the reason for there being no Peccatula for that sin be because it isnt like an independent entity, but the thing that transforms the other Peccatula into their “evolved forms“?
Edit: well, I was off the mark there. The Envy Peccatula are real and they‘re *I’ll face myself - Persona 4*
...would that mean that the end of a Peccatula's life-cycle is an Envy Peccatula?
Gotta love how trauma is so ingrained into The City that the people get stronger from it
Regarding greed as a sin, there is an exchange between Roland and Binah in LoR where the latter asks Roland what a man is, and while he gave a meme reply referencing Castlevania, Binah did take it seriously. Greed is desire and basically at the core of every sin; you can’t sin without wanting something. That’s why it’s not its own separate sin type, because it’s inseparable from its entirety conceptually.
As for the relation between envy and charge, we do have Cathy’s commenting how Heathcliff’s comeback against Hindley about how Mr. Earnshaw loved him more ended up burying itself like thorns in the latter’s heart. Aside from the obvious resemblance in imagery for the icon used to represent envy in-game, it also clearly portrayed Hindley’s envy as something that festered and built up inside him over the years, that led to both his own worsening condition and his increasing hatred of Heathcliff. Envy, once it takes root, only becomes stronger and more painful over time, so its connection to charge may lay there.
Greed could also be missing for another reason. Limbus company contains references to the Divine Comedy, in which Dante travels through the different layers of hell. What if The City is the layer of Greed? It certainly seems to be ruled by Greed in most aspects, meaning that having Greed is simply expected and not exceptional, it's not worthy of note because it's everywhere.
You're cooking with this one
It should be noted that electricity is likely so closely related to Envy because envy stems from coveting something that someone has that you do not; that there is at least a perceived difference between yourself and another.
The force behind electricity is voltage, which is a difference in electrical potential. Electrical current flows because the most positively charged end of a circuit lacks the electrons present at the most negative end.
As an avid electricity fan, I hate myself so much for not having made that connection earlier
The way I see it? The reason the Sinners can use EGO the way they do and Sins the way they do is because of a combination of their pact with Dante…and the fact they’re highly emotional.
In a world full of emotionally dead bureaucrats and ruthless thugs, the Sinners are very bad at keeping their emotions in check.
Gregor running away from the false apple because of his trauma. Rodya killing the old lady. Don at the checkpoint and in the pawn shop. Ishmael through nearly all of canto 5. Heathcliff’s rage attack during the first combat encounter with the Erlking.
They’re not emotionally stable. They’re volatile and let their emotions take the reigns- that’s why they’re spitting out Sin fragments left and right, and why they can gain power through “emotional attachment” to literal inhuman monsters. It’s what makes them different from everyone else. They’re all extremely emotionally driven.
Emotionally driven? Explain Meursault.
@@luckyalvin3947 it seems he is bottling up his emotions
I havent read his book so I lack every single inch of context, but
It seems as he is "heartless" just because he has lost direction, to experience everything, just to feel something, rather, feel satisfaction
He does experience emotions, it just that he bottles them up, he us too pridefull to show them, they arent a problem right?
He is a sinner because he problably signed the contract to finally find prupose/pleasure in life
That is why he seeks guideance/someone to tell him stuff to do
While he has a rutine, he is directionless
Yet that doesnt mean the bottle, the bucket of his emotions he carries isnt getting heavier
It's a bitt similar to roland, to "unmask" his emotion idk
I read it as that because I can relate to it a bit
@@TheVandive hmmm.... Meursault in The Stranger by Albert Camus has difficulties in recognizing social rules and norms. Moral and those tidbits. Emotion too. Imagine a high functioning psychopath, that couldn't recognize affective side of psychology and perform mainly on logical and cognitive function (though Meursault is kinda illogical. Why would you shoot an Arab just because the sun is hot?)
@@TheVandive he wanted to understand "emotion" and in the case of Limbus Company, "willingness to trust others" (In the sense that he must stop thinking that having others order him to do things is the right thing because he is the only one capable of doing so, a case of Pride).
I suspect LCB Meursault in the past is extremely restricted and under great amount of prejudice, this causes him to adopt of mentality of binding himself to others' command (Chains of Others)
@@TheVandive In summary, he suffers from the society's expectation of him, which he fails to deliver. He must learn to live for himself, instead of bowing to the contempt from others
I'm not sure of the exact etymology for calling the Sinners as they are, but iirc, the KR word that refers to the goofs is translated as "Prisoners."
Might be related to how they're bound by contract (save for Faust?) to Limbus Company.
edit: LMAO the pre and post-canto VI reactions. At this point, you could be the MatPat of PM.
"Prisoners" definitely lines up with the sprites on each of their personal EGOs, though the intentional choice to use "Sinners" in the English translation over prisoners is interesting.
I think there's some truth to that. At the same time, we might be able to interpret prisoner in a few ways, both being literal and being chained to the past
@@corvidreactor7356 I think you might be onto something. After all, Faust's [Representation Emitter] is the only ego that doesn't have the barbed wire in the foreground.
you bet a character named *Faust* is the most bound of all. Faust is the literal grandfather to most demonic bargain stories, after all.
@@longlivethe9989 yes but in the story Faust doesn't become bound till the end of their life for eternity in hell so potentially LimbFaust is unbound until the end of the road
That's crazy.
I just assumed that Vergilius's shin just uses Wrath but no i completely missed this detail.
I love that the sinners can channel this very own sin power thing they got going on that no one but themselves can use. And every sins having their unique usage and not just skittles colored skills.
Bad rodion spit out the sin
1:35 she spit them out. Are you happy? Deriving rodya of food... Like a maniac..
@@whynotm8fu2playswhatever21 yes... yes i am
@@whynotm8fu2playswhatever21destroyman the III !!
@@conarant6430new sinner added: Destroyman the III
I like how fair project moons power system is by that I mean people don't have to be born with a special trait to become strong all they have to do is take the right actions.
I just googled. Guess who is the demon of envy? _Leviathan._
So, we're going to have our big reveal after all, I guess.
Or, perhaps, someone more knowledgeable of the comics might help with this theory.
Cinq Sinclair has the ring on his S3, could be something more realized with higher upties.
Also, the contract never mentioned de-powering anyone, Dante thought it, but Dante is not a reliable narrator in this scenario, if Faust said it, it'd be a different story.
I think Cinqlair’s S3 ring is just a visual effect, would be strange if some random ID had access to Shin and it just… wasn’t acknowledged anywhere.
forensics green because health wanted to consume the answers to the cases he's assigned probably
This is true, he's like super obsessed with doing research on his GUT instincts, which is just short for Gluttony :y
If a character has 5+ Sin, they take damage equal to 10% of their Max. HP at the start of the Scene, and all Sin is removed from them.
Sin can be transferred to another character by attacking and damaging them. (Once per page)
Your welcome
That's it. That's the video.
Damb
One thing Ive always liked about Project Moon is the use of colors to symbolize the persons sin, its very interesting as it continues through their games.
Something to note is that personal E.G.O Manifestation as a concept will most likely be linked intimately with "Shin" once we get our first sinner's partial form. After all, it is only manifested through self-actualization, so using your memories and emotions for devastating attacks wouldn't be a new thing.
That idea does leave with a question though: what connections do those with "the Sign"(tm) like Demian and his faction have with it? After all, the dude summons a LOT more light rings than any of the characters before and even after the times he's used "Shin", and somehow NClair is able to partially make it visible to everyone to see while ours and other Sinclairs don't as of now, yet he didn't use it.
A little late to the party but I have insights of the sins based off from other people and it does a good job of explaining it.
Though the 7 deadly sins are indeed something that is deemed wrong, I'm more keen on it being a trait that keeps our humanity in check.
Wrath represents indignation, rebellion, and the overall determination of the human mind. It also represents spite as well, and is usually deemed as movement-heavy with regards to emotions.
Lust is basically just desires made manifest, or the concept of happiness. Enjoyment of something temporary or the ecstasy of something greater, it doesn't matter. What matters is the user's desires for something they truly want.
Sloth represents the inaction of one's self, only doing it when needed. Truly unbothered by literally everything, it defines the user's inactivity towards something; although it cannot be summarized as laziness alone.
Gluttony represents obsession, whether big or small. Insight and instincts are the ones usually being the dependent variable to gluttony, never enough and wanting more and more as time goes on, never full, but always hungry.
Gloom, although seen already as the embodiment of sadness, can be seen as desperation, grief and suffering.
Pride is seen as this somewhat of a desire behind a mask that uses whims before anything and disregarding the consequences rather than overestimating oneself, basically neglecting everything around for a bit that they wish to commit.
Envy, although not seen clearly, is more or less on the context of a reactionary force or being controlled by an outside force, just like puppets waiting to be moved. In terms of reactionary force, it utilizes the feelings of others rather than oneself.
Wait till PM adds a “Virtue” mechanic that uses these concepts and makes gameplay 7x more complex
Oh so that's what the rings of light around Indigo Elder's Harpoon are. That explains a lot
About the "shin" part, i think its the idea of manifesting mind upon the world. The peak of which would be E.G.O. (resulting in ego being called upon by using sin) but we've seen partial/incomplete manifestations before.
I'd go even further to say that sin would be the bad memories and emotions used to push your mind over the edge in order to manifest ego in the heat of the battle
I’ve heard Shin be described as “the purest manifestation of Light one can use” because you have to take in the good and bad emotions of your “core memories” and combine them into rings of Light to propel your attacks. From that perspective, it would be pretty much describable only as “the middle-ground between E.G.O and Distortion”, with Sin being more lenient towards the Distortion side and E.G.O Awakening being an LCB technology to transform those negative feelings into positive ones temporarily, allowing for use of E.G.O without having to face your trauma
I have never seen a setting where are power system is literally added into the world liken the project Moon world. For example haki in one piece it's kind of similar to shin and even though it takes a while to get properly introduced to haki and how it works it kind of just always existed in the world of One piece but but as far as I know shin and distortions/e.g.o are actually very new in the history of the city which I think is a very interesting way to introduce a power system.
"You show me a book where a character lives a happily ever after and i don't call that a magnum opus, that's just Shrek"
Bro's implying Shrek is NOT a magnum opus wtf
I feel like this video is flawed due to 2 big things.
First one is not mentioning the other most likely reason for sinners EGO to work like that, which is YuRia's forcefull EGO awakening technology.
That seems like a good reason as to why they work differently, because those EGOs are being forced out, at a cost.
Now, this second reason is most important, and that is neglecting to mention one of the most important sources of information on what the sins represent: Sign of Roses
More specifically the passives of each particular roses.
I cant really check to verify every detail but I will fact check this later no worries.
What you said about Wrath is mostly right, but the rose also puts emphasis in hatred AND self destruction is notably the passive name of the gloom rose. Which makes sense. NClair, Erlking... They both use gloom skills.
Lust I think you got mostly wrong.
Lust (and as with everything this is my interpretation, not fact) is Desire. Ambitions. The Peccatula was many arms reaching out, ready to take things in. Vergilius us reminded of the children *wanting* him to smile.
Kromer's Desire and ambition is the wholeness of humanity. Garden of Thorns is Lust because of how the Abnormality says that we all have desires (sin) and rejecting them is rejecting yourself
What is Gluttony then? Gluttony is need meanwhile, which differentiates it from lust just enough. Greed falls into this too because... Its the city. Hunger is just a need for food afterall. Though just because you need It doesnt mean your desire for it cant exceed what you actually need.
Sloth doesnt seem to overlap with Gloom as much as you said. Sloth is not acting for yourself more than anything, while also not wanting change. Mindlessly obeying orders is classified as sloth, which can be seen by which kinds of enemies and identities have it.
Gloom there isnt much to say beyond the emphasis on self destruction seen on the roses.
Pride and Envy are meanwhile hinted to be opposites by the roses. Pride is feelings of supperiority, yes, while Envy is feelings of Inferiority. The reason heathcliff is associated with Envy is due to how he sees himself. The members of the middle use Envy because their reliance on their family. Queequeg is indentified with envy due to her hating what she did with the middle, and wanting atonement. The connection with Charge I think strengths this. Charge units are nothing without charge. They heavily depend on it.
Now, this doesnt mean the video isnt a good analysis, of course. Specially regarding the Leviathan stuff.
I just thought I would point out that overlooking the Abnormality most closely associated with sin (and the only one to have 1 skill of each affinity) kind of brings It down a bit
Now, I know being 15+ hours late will probably fuck this comment and make it not be seen, but I have to try
Seen and appreciated. All I can say is that I'm regularly surprised about what new sources folks will make me aware of after posting And damn, of course it'd be from the last PM story I haven't fully absorbed, and an Abno that flew under the radar for this.
These are probs the details I'll use most when we touch back on this idea in the City's power system.
@@FreyCheqama Glad to see you saw this!
I just checked the passives of each rose and yeah, remembered them correctly. What I did not remember were the skill names (which is understandable as they are a bit disappointing with only the sin name plus another word in all cases)
Here are all the passives for anyone that doesnt want to have to check 7 different pages for the name of some passives:
All: Blooming Sins and Rose on a vine
Wrath: Embers, Boiling Wrath, Hatred
Lust: Shimmering Lust, Onesided Desire
Sloth: Crushing Sloth, Powerless
Gluttony: Growing Gluttony, Hunger
Gloom: Shimmering Gloom, Anxiety, Self Destruction (me too gloom drenched rose, me too)
Pride: Overinflated Pride, Outlash, Superiority
Envy: Glaring Envy, Jealousness, Inferiority Complex
A bit sad that there are some like lust sloth and gluttony only have 1 passive besides the obligatory "sin name + adjetive" passive, but atleast the other ones are pretty juicy.
I don't know really how to explain it, bit imo, if abnormality/E.G.O/distortion etc. can be compared to building, sins in that case would be individual bricks.
In other words, sin is the smallest unit of consciousness/mind/emotion that Light can operate with.
13:42
I think Envy could also be about holding resentment and bitterness. It's associated with that... and also makes sense with Charge.
It could be storing grudges resentment desires wishes in till you belive the time is right doing massive damage but without preparation for vengeance or some backing it will fall flat be useless and could harm you more envy is the sin that is all/connects to all outher sins it is all and nothing
I'm betting sins are just representations of emotions, kinda like expanded emotion level system from ruina and shin fuels them directly into power without needing ego.
Ego use them to be able to synchronize with abnormalities and thoughts+emotions they represent
P.S I'd also say that lust represents being blinded by passion and positive emotions in general, two groups most prominently using them are liu and shi, both very closely knit associations
Great vid, tho i have a kind of different approach when analyzing the Sin Attributes. The Sins aside from related to the emotion, they could related to an element in your standard RPG game, With Wrath is Fire, Lust is Blood/Physical/Flesh, Sloth is Earth, Gluttony is Plant/Nature, Gloom is Water, Pride is Air or Metal and Envy is Electricity or Thunder. With the associated status effect to match.
-Sloth is Earth, the status related to it is Tremor but it is also called Vibration in Korean, tremor is used as a charge stand-in because it's sort-of a game mechanic representation of engine reving, bell chimes and rustling of tree branches.
-Pride is Air, the Poise status is called Breath in Kr, it represent breathing, calm mind, deep concentration and luck. almost every pride ego gifts in the game currently are Breathing Aids or Luck related items.
This is an excellent addition. There's a good chance we'll come back to this topic later, so I'll def keep the elemental and cultural ideas in mind!
In Distortion Detective, Moses notes that sadness usually translates to water in Distortions. Similar connections could be made with other Sins present in Distortions (another comment talked about it, even using it to theorize a possible appearance for a Peccatulum Invidiae (It’s an armor set covered in chains pretending to be human due to its envy of what it can’t be))
sending love for those incredible lore videos you make
I know there's been writeups on other sites like Tumblr about what each sin means. Pride meaning ignoring risks, Envy being about reacting to the actions of another, Gloom being about losing control to negative emotions while Lust being the loss of control due to positive ones.
I really should get a Tumblr..
@@FreyCheqama I believe lu-is-not-ok has a good sin analysis? There's probably others too though.
One thing I want to point out, the description of EGO on the Limbus promotional website implies that Limbus EGOs are what happen if you try to wield an abnormality as an ID, you can do it, but it wont last long before becoming unstable or breaking.
I do love the use of Everhood music.
I wonder if the reason we see Wrath on Vergilius skills is because the sinners are filling in the blanks they can't fully understand Shin, so they assume it is something like Wrath since they know him as the Red Gaze which they associate with Wrath
9:47 I have also been told religious philosophers also associate Sloth with spiritual Laziness and procrastination. The saying “the Devil makes work of idle hand” refers to the belief that people with too much free time (medieval people not using to work or praying) tend to get into crime, sinful hedonism, or wasting on some other thing deemed frivolous by the community when jobs like farming require making every hour count. (I can see how most things done for the self and not for powers can fall under Sloth, like T corp would dislike it.)
Hope this is helpful if get stumbled why something was classified as sloth.
That description of envy is actually pretty accurate to theological take on it. Like envy the sin of coveting what others have isn't related to trying to steal what others have, its related to things like slander and wanting to take down a peg or ruin people who you perceive having what you want.
“Envy isn’t wanting to live as well as others: It’s wanting them to live as badly as you” -Emotionary (iirc)
“You must suffer… like I have” -Roland from Library of Ruina on the Nintendo Switch, channeling the sin of Envy
Interesting analysis. Though I'd like to point out that 心 refers to heart instead of mind, though that doesn't make things any more obvious than it currently is lol.
Just an observation i've made when ask myself that question.
Sins are colered like a rainbow. A Light spectrum. Which confirms that Sins originates from the Light.
i don’t think anyone thought otherwise
Also 2 small things. I belive the circles of light are supposed to be called Mang although I dont remember what the translators notes say about it and also I find it very weird how little EGO is talked about in Limbus. Like Dante has notes on thread, threadspinning, xp tickets, we've also been told how he uses like ID tablets in his device to use the ID on the sinners, how he gets the IDs from the bus engine and we even have an explanation on how he gets free event IDs. But nothing about how he has the sinners use the egos, the sin resources or even how he gets EGO from the same place he gets IDs
These are some nice takes, honestly. T'was a fun video, and I hope for more videos such as this one.
I think envy is about an unbearable desire for something you don't have. Something that someone else has. And your hate for them. Your grudge against them. Your... Envy. End the more you have those grudges and the stronger your desire, the more devastating will be the moment then you will finally snap and lose it.
I say envy is basically made up of all the other sins
To be envious you must be prideful enough to believe you deserve it
You must be filled with lust as the all consuming desire to get it
You must be greedy or glutinous to want more than you have just a bit more satisfy yourself
You must be slothful enough not to work hard for it and to attempt to take it or take from outhers before outher options or after it hasn't worked after enough times
Wrath for all consuming hate vitriol and outher emotions
You stew in your own self pity and gloom over how you can't get it the normal regular way or you can never get it naturally
And envy can harm yourself or outhers in equal measure depending on how far you plan ahead if you are blinded by your emotions and desires and act with haste you will often harm yourself but careful planning and you can ruin outhers with no harm to one self out of pure envy there is some variation between these two extremes
I've always seen Lust as embodying the base needs of humanity (the symbol being shaped like DNA, anything food related being Lust rather than glutony (both chef ID and Soup ego as well as the crab and ambling pearl predation move))
OK FINE ILL READ LEVIATHAN
Following the latest Retraction Railway, you got Envy very correct I feel.
As for the sin affinities of skills, I like to think that the LCB sinners’ skills have their sins decided based on the “depth” of that sin in correspondence to the sinner and their past. If it’s skill 3, it’s their usual, most surface-level emotion, if it’s skill 2, it’s a more deeper, intimate emotion, and skill 3 is their true colors, the emotion that drives them/has driven them in the past. Rodya is a great example: Skill 1 is gluttony, skill 2 pride, skill 3 is wrath. Surface-level/commonly displayed, a little more intimate, her true nature/the driving force behind her key moment. Obviously some don’t match for the sake of in-game balancing, but most do follow this trend
Its interesting but i think we have seen envy way before in Lobotomy Corp, as the Black damage, the animation its also the same purple torns, in the distortion detective Mosses black attacks also had the same form
Moses’ pipe has 4 types of smoke, related to the 4 damage types in LC. She even describes the Pale breath as “the breath of death” (paraphrased), and is forbidden from using it by Ezra cause it shortens her lifespan every time (she still uses it like twice)
Envy can build up because of wanting things that others have and at some point it can be destructive to you and others thats why i think charge is the main of envy but i think envy is like greed because of discontent
To elaborate more on the last comment: Kromer didn't *need* to become obsessed with "human wholeness," she didn't need to kill the townsfolk of Kalf and only does so to satisfy her own desires and ideals of a "perfect" humanity free of "impurity." So she embodies a desire that is "higher" than need.
Dongrang, meanwhile, prioritized his own survival and well-being to secure a cushy job at K. Corp. even at the cost of his friends and even most of the City through K. Corp's technology and what it enables. He does not care that others are hurt, so long as HE comes out ahead. Survival, while necessary, shouldn't be at the cost of others, hence Denies All being a Gluttony-EGO and Dreamer of Human Wholeness being Lust.
The Boughs can connect people/minds.. Just as it was intuitively said before the last boss of Canto 6... It must be that facilitated connection that allows the sinners to use E.G.O. like that.
My headcanon is that greed is not there because fuck who wouldn't be greedy living in the hellscape that is The City??
My guess is that sinners use a certain type of shin because most of them are quite young and haven't experienced a variety of trauma (yet) while someone like vergilius lived long enough to have balance in his shin abilities.
Kinda interesting that base Kromer before she resonated with bough is full Pride. "Beginning of humanity's transformation into prideful creatures"? Sounds like her in Canto 3.
I think envy might be litterlly envying other sins for having status effects and instead of having status effect like other sins it just does high damage (nuke skills)
You really have to take a closer look at the Identities when you learn what their skills sin affinities are. Lets take Nclair for example.
His skill one is Gloom - likely his regret for listening to Kromer Faust and killing innocent people, just because they had augmentations.
Skill 2, Lust - His literal Lust for power, hoping to one day be strong enough to kill kromer (faust).
Skill 3, Wrath - His hatred toward Kromer (Faust), his own blind obsession that is killing more and people as he claws for power.
My point is, take the time to carefully analyze, theorize and ponder an identity. :) thanks for listening
Hmmm I shall add this to my list of things to make videos about once I am done moving so a little over 5 weeks
Lust represents desires, not necessarily of "need" but of "want." A lot of religious-themed Abnos have a Lust theme and of course N&H and Kromer being Lust-heavy with a Crusader motif.
Gluttony, meanwhile is more directly about "need," but not always a "necessary" need. It's "need" to the point of "greed" (lol), survival even at the cost of taking from others.
So, Wire Mother vs. Cloth Mother.
Envy feels more like you're bottling up all that hate, that "Envy" you have for someone until you finally get the chance to just let it all out and lay waste to that person, i'm just saying, considering charge
The attacks being not specific moves but rather thoughts or desires of characters is something that was also present in Ruina aswell, a lot of guests have pages with names that don't refer to fighting techniques or anything but rather to something they said before or their characteristics. And Angela also was amplifying librarians and guests emotions to receive more books from them while even allowing them to draw power from emotions and borrow Abnormalities powers for a short moment, just like how Limbus sins work.
Also it is my understanding that PM equated Gluttony to greed, since we don't have a Greed sin in limbus. Its as if greed is so common in the City that you can hardly call it a sin, only the immeasurable desire of possessing or devouring everything in your way is.
0:10 So you are saying that shereek had a happily ever after and that it is not a magnum opus ?
Yes. Yes I am.
NOW SHREK 2 THOUGH
bro, I just had a snap here and I have to share
none of the base E.G.Os are/have (I dunno which use in this case) Wrath Afinity
like, there's some that consume Wrath, but none IS Wrath
Personaly, i dont see Shin as related to Sin
Sin: emotion related to the action
Shin: SHEER WILLPOWER.
Thus why people not directly EGO related will be able to use it,as most people who watch anime have point out its similarity to one piece and hunter x hunter system where "Shin" is just a neutral will power expresion of power.
Now, the reason why sinner are affected by Sin and use Sin seems to be their tie to dante and the golden bows, as most regular humans DONT have afinities on Sin, yet we see their attack have sin afinity as they affect the sinner.
As of how EGO works, is that Dante can collect and return the emotion in especific amount thus triggering EGO manifestation.
Same with passives, SPECIALLY RESONANCE, as Dante make the emotion tied to the sinner reververate trought the chain of skill thus amplifying it.
Or in the case of pasives BORROWING certain skills, like bas Ryoshu 3 Glutonny grant a deploy sinner a damage buff, the same that she does when she get a Glutony resonance.
And we have more extreme cases like Gregor who literally grant regeneration as long as the emotions tied to his own regenerative factor are present.
So in sintesis they all works the same way, as emotion afect literal reality, yet sin is tied to a spectrum, and Shin is either a neutral of bacant of emotion, being just sheer willpower.
Ps: originaly Greed as a sin DIDNT EXIST, as in limbus Gloom, existed.
Yet with the profiletaration of Burguess (Merchant replacing noble "blood rights) and later rebranding as capitalism, the sin of Greed, or the want of monetary/materialistic gain become its own distinction.
And gloom, or melancoly, asociated with depresion was ignore and forgoten as the new lifetile of debauchery that high class permite make so this wasnt even conciderz thus beig erase from the public mindset.
Ps: 2, in the detective novel, last publish chapter is talk about Envy, tied to neurosis and the want to harm with intent, while wrath is just chaotic destruction, envy is tied to a person or object, more and aspect of society than just natural exoresion
The indgo elder had rings on his harpoon before throwing it
In Korean, the sinners are instead called ‘Prisoners’, signifying they’re a prisoner of their past. I think the English team wanted to connect them to Dante’s Inferno
"Whatever does come of it though, I'm sure it'll stay in our minds for a long time" Oh the irony
Bigtop burger mentioned, peak fiction
0:50 i can't believe Angela forgot the concept of original sin, smh Ayin should have given her a Bible before trapping her for a million years
So here is my thoughts on what Sin is and what sin affinities are. One thing that stood out to me was something Binah mentioned back in Lob corp about how the inventions of the backstreets could be wielded against the abnormalities. It makes me think that whether the characters recognize it or not all of the weapons resonate with the mind and emotions in some way. But it also has been making me wonder how the components of the workshop weapons are made. I know that from Ruina that Color tier fabric can be made by the carnival carefully selecting individuals with certain personalities to create clothes that embody the powers of that person. And from Limbus that the Gnomes could make almost anything from living humans including workshop gear (if they weren’t lying about that).
The other thing piece of evidence supporting this is how one’s Sanity greatly affects how effective ones combat prowess. Granted I don’t fully know what Sanity represents in limbus company or if it represents different things for different IDs. Like Ting Tang Hong Lu when he’s at max sanity clashing higher than most ego while flailing his knife around on a whim (although I don’t necessarily know if he’s using wish stickers like our world’s ting tang gang). Just some fun thoughts keep up the good content ^^
Fun fact: When it comes to Gloom being here as a replacement, that actually didn’t come out of nowhere. In Orthodox Christianity, there’s actually an 8th deadly sin that is meant to be the worst of all; *Despair.* Otherwise called Gloom. In most other branches it’s considered as a part of Sloth. Though I do agree PM did a good job differentiating the two. And I do agree that getting rid of Greed was probably the right call upon thinking about it. I personally consider Lust, Gluttony, and Greed to be different aspects of the same idea, that being, a strong desire gone wrong. For Gluttony, it’s excess or anything that can be consumed, which can include food, but also other things like media or resources. For Lust, it’s for more abstract things that can give you pleasure in general, which can include sex, power, or even bloodlust, stuff like that. And for Greed, its material wealth and status. Upon thinking about it like that, it becomes a lot more obvious how difficult it would be to turn that into a gameplay mechanic, at least for Limbus.
Anyways, this has been your Deadly Sin Seminar (Sin-minar?) by your local Catholic, sorry about the tangents lol, I just think the LBC sins are neat
Boy, it looks so interesting I genuinely wish it wasn't a gacha game and thus evil...
A SIN, you might say
10:50 my gluttonous ass could never be a forensic scientist
Random out of character tangent: The color coding of the sins in Limbus also messes me up because I am super into Evillious Chronicles and all the sin contractors there have color schemes that don’t match with the sins in Limbus company at all so I’ll look at envy and go “ah yes that’s Duke Venomania” (actually kinda fitting if you know his backstory)
I just realized pride doesn't have eyes....
What do you MEAN we got jack shit about envy skills!? Literally every aspect of Heathcliff's chapter was all about Envy!!!
The envious way Hindley views Heathcliff's role in the house, and how Heathcliff deliberately twists Hindley's familial love into a lingering ember of hatred for everyone.
Nelly envious of the power and freedom afforded to everyone else around her while she's getting crushed under the endless weight of the Butler's contract, envying everyone else in *all* worlds because there is no way (she can see) that she makes it out of this life OK.
And of course Heathcliff and [ ][ ][ ][ ][ ] both envying themselves and each other, refusing to actually communicate to realize that their love isn't unrequited, it's just under the surface!
Regardless, I'm glad you're doing actual content instead of AI-driven slop again, please keep that up. :V
I mean, Shrek *is* a magnum opus.
But I get your point.
edit: for some reason i saw the name and thumbnail and expected the sins to be some weird name for mang so thats why i was talking about mang
i only know of mang from leviathan but my personal opinion is i think its something similiar to ego but for the weird sin stuff that limbus has with the sin-based abnoes(?) and all the other stuff
or like its just sorta pieces of ego made manifest whether the person is determined enough to manifest or not
Huh, I've always interpreted Lust as some form of "passion"?
That's the only explanation I have that actually makes sence for Don and Ryoshu's base ego to have
12 - Sinners
12 - Apostles
Clock imagery
Heavenly theming
Hellish theming
Y‘know i dont really believe it myself but… I feel like theres something there. Just getting this weird feeling y‘know?
Also every Railway has a religion themed final boss
I remember that there was that theory of the sinners being an ideal dough aka not needing to clear the "base" to refract an id to them, tho it's probably not that
This video made some really nice points, but felt like it frequently went far left field after each one.
Especially heartbroken that you made the point about the unique way that the sinners use ego resources for EGO attacks, but then don't stick to it.
Additionally, we've seen multiple bosses & even Verg in Leviathan use EGO so it's not like EGO is restricted to our sinners, if anything we're doing it in a very forceful if not inefficient way since enemies keep it up for entire battles while ours is turn by turn & harm our sanity majorly for even that short period of time.
All enemies, additionally, use sin affiliate skills. They may not use EGO attacks with those resources produced by it but it doesn't seem like the use of sin to do basic attacks is particularly unique.
Shin being referred to as the power of sin through me off guard but I still think ultimately your best points when you went through the in universe definitions of each sin type rather than trying to explain what the skittles packet is & why our sinners have a unique form of it.
That all being said, loved your definitions for the sins in Limbus Company & what it means in lore for Sinners to use EGO attacks.. even if I'm very upset you brought up one piece & didn't associate Shin with Haki.
Hey, I appreciate you taking the time to be thoughtful about the video and say something. I was concerned on this one with the delivery and worried about clarity. And it seems that while many enjoyed it, it didn't hit the mark for everyone. But, I DO want to at least give ya some peace on those topics.
The reference to characters using EGO was on specifically using Sin resources for EGO rather than the ability to use EGO itself. I was hoping showing the CG with Verg would be enough with implying. But with something going public, there isn't a huge replacement for exact wording /gen.
Every character, down to Rats, also does make use of Sin, though not consciously. It's moreso that the use and awareness of Sin and Sin resources are what's specific to the Sinners in both EGO and Passives. Again, this was an instance where telling is worth the effort.
As for One Piece, Haki's a much better analogy. But ik not as many people know about Haki since it comes up about halfway in. So I just used Devil Fruits since even non OP fans know about those.
Thanks again for being thoughtful. I'm taking the next 11 months or so to keep testing videos in different ways to feel out as much as possible, so talking about this stuff makes a diff. Have a good one!
Frey cheqama was this in the works since 2023 that mention of library of ruina in 2024 didn’t sound like it was during this year
It was March of this year before Canto 6 came out. Ngl, the phrasing suffered a bit when trying to update it, but I think we only got the announcement after 2024 started
I am still confused to as why project moon made this new sin rings system, but am I allowed to assume that everyone including Roland and iori knows how to use the rings
They at least have the capacity to learn it!
this was a good ass video
Foe Pride we couldve talked about Ahab and Gluttony with Dongrang
I feel like envy is an sin that needs something to build it up for its max potential like with w don you build up charge to do the most damage and rcorp Heathcliff with rupture witch is debatable and dechi rodion with the books. anyways I am getting ahead of my self or over thinking it.
ah so trauma is a super power
Envy is a weird sin, even if the weirdest probably goes to Gloom in a classical sense. Envy is one of the more insidious sins, by that i mean that their effect isn't immediately apparent, and usually requires a build up to a large effect, this is similar to Sloth and Pride in the current Sin List. Simillarly Tremor and Poise also need a build up like with Charge before getting let out.
Also i a classical sense Envy is the want of something someone else has. unlike Gluttony or Greed that is the excessive accumulation of something, Envy is the excessive want of something you yourself don't have, usually that others do. It is an inward turning sin looking at your worst traits or things you lack.
It does make Envy one fo the weirdest to give a solid definition to due to it's dual nature as being an outward facing sin but at the same time equally inward facing. I do feel that it does go with the whole Twisting things, but i feel it is more twisting a person's view, amplifying the bad and decreasing the good. We probably don't have any Peccatulla representation fo Envy due to its insidious nature, but unlike Sloth and Pride and even GLoom that one can see the signs of relatively quickly, Envy is harder to find and it waits for the critical build up before exploding, like CHarge, one could say that the expression of Envy ends up being on of the other sins. Being angry at those who have what you want, stealing it from others, falling into sadness at the lack of it. It's a weird sins all in, all I do hope we see some more on it in the future.
Yes yes yes do a video for E.G.O
last 3 minutes of the video is basically:
What if aleph enemie in canto 6?
EDIT: I WAS WRONG IGNORE