Lads lads lads. Will tune in later on the drive. Just banter, never said you were liar. I thought my crap Aussie accent would have been taken in jest. Got my hands on 2. Not 1. At the end of day, both frames have a green QC PASS sticker on the bottom and a serial number . Thus, they get analysed that way as if another customer would receive them. Ps Jesse i defended you in those accusative comments to my own video… and i never talked shit about Edwin. You’re barking up the wrong tree here pal. You have made my Tavelo video about you.
we have this thing called DR(design review) in engineering, and PT did that on a released frameset Did Tavelo's design outsource skipped that part? Either way, the real issue is that the QC is SHIT.
@@PeakTorque you're good on my book pt. I know you'll all be adults that knows how to handle this. at the end of the day, thsu is why I tune in to many peoples reviews/comments/opinions about stuff because we might get facts we never imagined possible
It looks to me like a obvious friendly joke from Peak Torque and blown out overreaction on Jesse's part. It was so hard to watch. You guys are so eager to bash everyone around but when someone rises concerns about something you haven't been super vocal about you loose your minds and start defending not only yourself but the product. You saw quality of the frame in his video, if you paid your money for a frame and got the same would you try to mask the issues? His rant was legit imo
@@simonRt well, I don't disagree but I get it from Jesse's perspective too. Exactly because the two are often critical, they rely on being trustworthy themselves. I guess the audience that follows both channels gets this and understands both PT's snark and that Chris and Jesse are no shills (and no engineers either). But considering the comments, there's also an audience that doesn't get all this. And I think this is really what triggered the strong reaction - fear of a threat to your credibility.
@@HinduReal I agree. Unfortunately they didn't react in a friendly manner which would put PT words in an "obviously joking" category. Instead a hostile attitude may look like they are feeling guilty, or trying to hide something. I really hope they resolve the situation, PT already posted de-escalating comment.
Exactly. PT has a following that doesn't get it is snark, and PT should be aware of this and take it into his account in his communication style. Otherwise he will end up with a situation like Hambini has with Reginald Scott at some point or another. He already took a dump on Benji from LRCP for his fitness, which was also just banter, but this is now becoming a pattern.
@FT__Bicycling_____-sc7yv yeah, considering this is UA-cam and them doing this for a while you'd think they'd take it with a grain of salt and move on.
Generally a bigger fan of Nero than PT, but this was painful to watch. Could not be more obvious that PT's jab at Jesse was done sarcastically and with no intent whatsoever to imply lack of integrity. There seems to be pretty much unanimous agreement (even in your own video's comment section) on this. For how much this show relies on banter, it's honestly hard to grasp how easily you've got your panties bunched here. We all get a wrong read now and again, hope you guys can show some humility and admit how wrong you got this one in a future video or something.
Long time fan of this channel, although reconsidering, but I doubt Jesse will have the humility to acknowledge this. Otherwise they would've said something by now...
@lazeroth89 it might have been banter, but it still instilled doubts ithehr viewer. No wonder Jesse didn't like it. He's got every right to refute the video
So my take on this is that I regularly watch the Nero Show and I like their generally blunt and direct banter, with some levity tossed in for good measure. And with the Tavelo build, Jesse was his usual no-nonsense self, telling us his initial impressions and saying he is going faster on it than his rim-brake Giant. Details to follow, he added. Great, got it. Then I saw part of the Peak Torque video and, as an occasional viewer, I wasn't sure if the call-out was serious or playful. It was brief, sure, but it did seem to link Jesse to the marketing jive both he and Chris regularly disparage on the Nero Show, so I can understand Jesse wanting to defend his reputation and his experience with his Tavelo frame. It may have been a genuinely playful inside joke, but most viewers are not insiders, probably best not to joke about others. Themselves, sure, and viewers about hosts, sure, like I was initially wondering, hey, what's up with Jesse, long a rim-brake Giant loyalist, not being allowed by Chris to ride the new Giant with those fancy disc brakes. 😀
As just a viewer with of course no skin in the game and no reason to have an emotional response to anything PT said. I didn't think he was saying Jesse was "lying" and "misleading viewers" but that he would have just sent the bike off to get it built up(like most people who aren't bike mechanics and not short of cash) so of course would have had no idea about these potential issues like the undersized BB, headset etc etc. So I think you may have taken him the wrong way. Just my 2cents.
@@melbournecyclingsegments7510 I don't think i could be described as boring. Getting shot. Banging the uni professor's wife, getting thrown out of uni a couple of times etc. Getting sued umpteen times. Colourful, not boring!
Jesse, Peak Torque's comment about you sounded like a banter. It did not sound like he called you a liar. You took it too strongly than it was intended.
As a viewer of both Nero show and Peak Torque, it was pretty clear that his offhand reference to you Jessie (and ccache) was just tongue in cheek sardonic banter. It is pretty clear from his other videos that his actual opinion of both of you as bike riders is very high. It is not his fault UA-cam comments are as always utter trash. It is true that a certain part of UK cycling UA-cam (Hambini, Peak Torque, Mapdec) is very engendering focused, caliper obbessed (perhaps too much) and there is a bit of a cultural clash when that audience encounters the more riding/racing focused Nero show.
He was not really going after you. But the QC issues probably make these a bad option for anyone who does not have a relationship with a good mechanic.
Sounds like they're taking it too seriously or playing it up for some YT drama. PT made a 5 second joke and continued to the roast the frame, not the Nero show.
I think to call it Banter would be having Jesse on board first. I don't think the comments are banter and I suspect that maybe strikes a cord more. To put out an honest opinion to try and help guide the general public and then be a called a liar (as a joke or not) nobody would enjoy. I suspect his build was that bad he struggled to believe anyone was telling the truth but there is a way to go about it
Peak torque went to town on this frame, good information for anyone who’s considering buying one. Like P.K says it’s not like it’s a cheap frame it’s mid range and above. It’s a big investment for the average joe.
His two were early models which later YT’s who received frames didn’t have. If he would have made this video weeks before everyone else, all the former YT’s could have had the opportunity to verify his comments. Which none had the issues he had. Sad thing is, he knew by that time his was a unique situation but he decide to roast anyways and not cross reference any other YT’s experience. Just me me me
Lads, he was taking the piss about how you got it built at a bike shop, rather than doing it yourself on discovering these QC issues first hand. Elite cyclists and not being able to take the slightest bit of banter 🤝
Buy a frame from your local shop that has good customer service. Call me a snob but saving an extra $500-$1,000 isn’t worth it to me on a new bike. I rather pay the extra $1,000 and get a bike that I know is made well and a bike I will keep for years to come.
Boys you probably should have delayed the show a day or so to take a breath. You will cringe when you play this back. I normally watch full length of the show each week, not today..
This is called QUALITY CONTROL. They don’t have it. Your frame has issues you could go around, but his frame has far worst ones then yours. I wouldn’t buy a product that has faulty or none QC and end up losing my dollars! Good luck with Chinese stuff!!! 😂😂😂
The core issue the PT is addressing is that these Chinese brands are hand picking frames for the UA-cam viewers that do not reflect their broader QC/quality. The result is that consumers are misled. Also, let's dispense with the "there's no financial gain for JC" line. Yes, there is - he received a bike worth thousands for free.
"They don’t have it (QC)". How do you know? Can you document that? If you watch some of Mapdecs videos quite a few "western" brands also seem to have "some" qc problems, even those with quite a hefty price tag.
Honestly, fellas, I watched the video and felt like PT's "callout" was a lighthearted jest. I did not get the vibe at all that it was an actual blast. This probably was worth a phone call or message before taking it up a notch. I think you'll find that his intention was not malicious.
Honestly this is embarrassing. You dish out crap to everyone (which is great) but one small comment and you both overreact and get defensive. Important to note that while the frame you got was mostly fine, it would have been carefully picked for you with additional QC unlike the regular customers who order it.
Wow, you took it very seriously. I think PT was bantering and you're reacting strongly to some critique that isn't there. Sometimes it's worthwhile to not react immediately and gain some perspective, at least it works like that for me when I interpret something as criticism / personal attack. Many times it isn't.
When talking about the BB, you show your mechanic struggle with the press fit, then you show your mechanic using an enormous amount of torque, a big ole' breaker bar, you can see him straining, to get a thread-together bottom bracket into your press fit shell... that didnt' "fix" the problem... he just muscled it in.
The bottom bracket issue is huge.. You shouldn't have to deal with that at this price point. I agree with peak torque, that's a deal breaker for most and you shouldn't be recommending it..
Did Nero ever had one ? I doubt it... Those two, especially chrisy would suck dick for sponsorships. You already forgot how he cried on every episode he can't get any ?
I read the comments first before watching the show, finally got to understand how Jesse got quite emotional. I know that you mature adults will talk it out on private soon but as what everyone else have said, it was honestly just banter from PT. i don't think he has any ill will from that. you guys all chill and let's have the usual thing in our little cycling bubble.
I think you are acting very defensive. The QC issues with BB, headset, seatpost are all valid points. You should not need to come up with a work around. All the issues where you also expeirenced you are downplaying. Users expect everything to work witrhout issues when buying a new frame. Also keep in mind that he is coming as this from an engineering standpoint.. Most of the issues are valid, not the other way around. Even if some of the issues are unique to him, the fact that there are multiple issues, calls out there are QC issues with Tavelo's manufacturing process. With that said, I do agree that Peak Torque shouldn't have called you out personally.
@@ConstantRider I don’t think they were arguing over anything. PT had a lot of problems with his frame(s). Others didn’t. So it’s a QC issue. Your comment about who to trust is exactly why Jesse isn’t happy. Because idiots watch it and have this kind of take.
On this episode of two Australians get butt hurt over English humour. PT didn't say you were shills or missleading, just that you paid a bike shop to deal with the frame that should be good from the factory.
And they telling like he says the mechanic is bad or something. Actually if u cannot see the problems while riding, like PT suggested, its a compliment to the mechanic not the other way around.
Which is extra hilarious considering australians like to pretend they are kings of banter themselves. What happened to them to make their skins so incredibly thin.
He got 2 Tavelo frames with the same issues. He got really unlucky😂. Tavelo is not a cheap chinese frame. Making a too small BB is a scandal on a frame that cost 1800-2000 Usd.
Luck has nothing to do with it. Very likely Tavelo sent JC a handpicked frame intended to deceive audiences because it doesn't reflect their broader QC or manufacturing quality.
Will be interested in the bearing life of Jesse's BB. READ - Hambini's page on 30mm and DUB spindles in PF 86/92 being a recipe for disaster. This info plus poor QC means an even possible worse outcome .😮
You guys are too funny today, comical how Jesse did not have the issues and went over one by one, turns out he did too noticed the same issues. Had he have to buy the frame, bb, groupset with his own money and pay a shop to do the work few times over his attitude would have been different , between the crappy frame, crappy Chinese grpupset, having 2 shops do the work twice he sure has a lot of courage to come out swinging like this . I can only imagine if the western brands would release such dud products what the reaction would be
You guys are going off about nothing with the peak torque beef. He never said 90% of the stuff you are claiming. Never called you a liar. Never said you're getting paid. I don't get this video, very bad look.
Jesse, I'm British. We are sarcastic, that was Banter. Your viewers won't drop because PT made a cheeky 7 second edit with your name, he even attempted a terrible accent. What will lose you support is a rant that lasts over 26minutes........ legit having watched the PT video prior to this the only thing I remembered about you from it was friendly banter between mates and the rest was interesting about the complications building up the bike as I enjoy building my own. I actually thought when you started that rant you would have laughed it off and said something funny in response. But the way you took it had me considering hitting the unsubscribe. Its sad really.
Nahhhhh, according to Jesse C you should buy $35 plastic cups and install because they have better give. How pathetic is that approach ????? We have access to best BB on the market , premium bearings, ceramic bearings, precision CNC but nooooo. Go plastic and ride happy.
Embarrassing yourselves lads, wasn't questioning your integrity. Granted, you didn't encounter all the same issues as he did, but you did skirt over the bb fault, just because you found a fix doesn't make it OK. He didn't question your mechanics skills or integrity either, just suggested you should get them in to give their build experience
The bottom bracket issue is bad. It is now seemingly a consistent issue.. The bars don't bother me.. The uncut fork length is going to make it inappropriate for a lot of customers. The inability to use cabeled Di2 would concerning. But an engineer will look at things a bit differently from a mechanic as they are in a better position to see design issues potentially problematic. Some Chinese frame companies seem more mature than others. I own three Chinese frames. I would not buy a Tavelo.
Which frames you own? Finished grad school and starting a real job in a new city. Thinking about upgrading my alu gravel bike. But also there's a lot more road cycling here so also considering that direction.
@@cjohnson3836 1. ICAN A10. This is a rim brake bike with a very aero frame, super light, very fast. It has been completely trouble-free from day one, and the mechanic who built it up told me he was super impressed by the overall build quality. I put Ultegra DI2 on it and I still love that bike and ride it a lot. It's got thousands of miles on it. 2. I have a Yoeleo R12, which is their allround aero roadbike. I should note that this is the second one of those I had because the first one had to be replaced under warranty. Getting that arranged was NOT easy!!! Their customer service is pretty bad overall except for one guy there who finally helped me. But I like the bike a lot. I very much appreciate the geometry which is not super aggressive like the Tavelo that is the subject of this video. It's not the lightest bike out there either, mine is 8 kg with pedals on. but it's fairly typical for its class. Very comfortable, stable in fast decents. 3. I also have a Yoleo R11, which is lighter and which they describe as a climbing bike. I don't like it very much and also the hole for the bottom bracket was too large. It creaks. I'm eventually going to have to figure that out. Long story how I got that frame. I also have a lot of experience with Chinese wheels. I've had several sets of ICAN wheels (Aero 50) and they have all been fantastic although should be noted they are not the most modern design out there, but great value for the money and good build quality. I had a set of Yoeleo SAT but they were not very good and developed cracks around the spoke holes fairly early on. I have a set of Eiite 50D wheels and they're so far fantastic. The bottom line is I will never spend any more money on a Yoeleo product. I would not hesitate to buy a frame or a wheel from ICAN (who also have great customer service).. And I would definitely consider Winspace. Possibly Elves
Those customers should look at an endurance bike. PT is super tall, Chinese frames don’t really cater for super tall Western riders. It’s made to run slammed or little stack and either 12 speed Di2 wireless or Etap. Sorry guys who’s running old stuff, tech moves on.
@justinkase8716 Yes, that's true. I'm a bit taller, so I've looked into this a lot. Some are better than others for taller people (but PT is really tall). Two that have longer head tubes are the ICAN A9 and Yoeleo R12 (ICAN is a much easier company to deal with). Those aren't frames in the Tarmac SL8 weight range like the newest Winspace, but for a lot of people will be a really good option. They run around 1000-1200 USD for the frames. And yes, in the future, I'll probably run wireless groupsets, but my 11 sp Ultegra Di2 is bulletproof and excellent. A lot of people like me may transfer a groupset from one bike to another, so PT's info was useful.
Let's just throw a rational argument out there... Rare for a UA-cam comments section... It was clearly banter from PT, HOWEVER, it's the connections ascociated with it which imply that there is a lack of integrity. I can completely understand Jesse's reaction to the above, might be a little blown up in parts but for me it's pretty justified. These are passionate guys and especially on reading comments under PT's video I can see how he wants to fight his corner and has every right to do so considering the experience he has had. Whole thing is just a tad misunderstood but both parties are correct in this case. If anything it highlights what we already know with Chinese gear that's QC is "hit and miss". I hope Nero can invite PT on and clear the air in an episode soon and may lead to further conversations on how to approach these providers going forward. Enjoyed the episode. Top work as usual lads l.
If you need to buy a plastic BB because the $150 one you bought that should fit can’t fit……. That’s shit. As a bike mechanic, I’d be telling my customer get a refund. I don’t see any question regarding your integrity. But ppl are listening to your comments and review of a product, for you, it was no big deal that you needed to go out and get a different BB. For me and for other ppl, they would consider that a complete fail.
Come on Jessie. Getting your knickers in a twist and then admit that your BB was also egg shaped? Why didn’t you say that in your review? It’s a deal breaker as regards quality control.
Chris, Jessie, I think the best thing you can do here is look upon this as a learning experience. If you want to review bikes and be taken seriously, lean into that competitive spirit and raise your game! i) I don't want to denigrate either of your bike mechanic's skills, but the standard worldwide is obviously quite low. @Mapdec should be the norm, but I've yet to see anyone else showing what it takes to _properly_ correct these dreadful BBs and brake mounts etc. Pretty much I'm not going to take seriously any assessment of frame quality unless it's subject to the same level meticulous attention to detail we see from Paul and his colleagues, I want to see how much it's going to cost in money and hassle to properly put things right. Even if the manufacturers should be doing all this at the QC stage, it's pretty clear that the overwhelming majority of bike mechanics and workshops need to dramatically improve. A 'fix' that appears to work for a few weeks/months is a bodge if you then end up with a creaking BB, ruined axle, or ruined frame 1-2 years down the line. The right tools for facing, sizing and aligning are the only way to go. ii) You absolutely cannot spin the Tavelo issues in a positive light :/ between Jessie's frame and PT's two frames, that's _three out of three_ that have out of spec BBs. How many times do we need to hammer this point? It's a _hole that should be round and the correct size._ It's obscene when it isn't on any bike, whether it be a $500 frame or a $7500 frame. The bike industry and its' brands absolutely deserve to be crucified for this. I'm in the UK, the sale of goods act say that goods should be free of minor defects, including cosmetic defects. I think most or Europe is similar, and yet it has become normalized that we consistently receive functionally defective products. We are morally and legally entitled to better than this. Don't make excuses or attempt to play down any defects, you earn the shill label when you do that. iii) Your ride experience's are totally valid, but the reality is it only has (very) limited value in terms of a bike review e.g. Jessie is lighter and _a lot_ more powerful than me, probably the case for many, if not most viewers. Grant (GC performance) is probably closer in terms of being relatable, but he rides in pan flat Florida, whereas I am in a relentlessly steep part of the UK with poor road quality, so again his ride experience is limited in how valuable it is. I will likely watch Jessie's video when it drops, and it's good that he's taking his time over it, but what we've seen so far is mostly the benefits of contemporary aero and disc vs round tubes and rim brake wheels. It doesn't really say much particularly about the Arow. You can't really do anything about the large variation in morphology between riders, so I'm not sure what you can do other than be really clear about any subtle nuances between bikes. You probably need to ride a lot more bikes and do back to back to back comparisons. iv) You are going to be called shill no matter what you do. You can buy stuff with your own money or be subscriber funded, and 'ream' products Hambini style, some people will never believe there is any integrity in what you do. However, whenever you're accepting _anything_ from brands or sponsors, you are clearly and unambiguously part of their marketing whether you like it or not. There is a no-win situation there, you do need good relationships in general with brands if you want regular access to review products, and a means to pay the bills. It's is a difficult line to tread, I think Dave Arthur is quite artful in what he says and what he doesn't say, but a lot of it goes over viewers' heads as he gets called shill more than anyone. Pretty much you're going to have to develop a much thicker skin and learn to address criticism and shortcomings in any review or product showcase, the one thing that is certain is you can't afford to gloss over product design and manufacturing defects. v) FWIW, I think there are plenty of channels reviewing bikes that are pure trash and they have been called out many times, they don't even try to change and don't have any value, I don't think there are many people putting yourselves into that category, mostly the response is a demand for much higher review standards. vi) Finally, while Chinese brands do come under fire a lot, and rightly so in many cases, the whole bike industry is under fire. Plenty of folks regularly disgust at $6500 Pinarello frames for poor paint, slipping seat tubes, disintegrating computer mounts etc. Factor have been found out, similar quality issues as everyone else and claimed weights that are just fantasy :/ From my perspective, if I could afford a $15K hyper-bike, there is literally _nothing_ available that I could say I fully trust the brand and quality, _and_ can get the features and looks that would appeal to me, and that's just wrong. Everything mid-tier to upper tier should be fantastic every time at the prices being asked.
Jesse, your skin is way too thin :) Having to hear you defend yourself like that was so cringe. PT should have called you before publishing his video probably, and / or you should have called him instead of over reacting like that. Let's call that cultural misunderstanding.
This totally. it's laughable. No where did he call them "liars" or anything. He made one bit of joking banter. Jeez, seeing how worked up they are is unreal
Bought? they were given to him. His two frames were early production which they had resolved hence why the other YT’s didn’t have issues. If he would have put his video out first - we would have heard different from the other guys either validating or explaining their experience.
Inconsistency in QC from Tavelo should be the main message. Buyer’s beware. If I paid for Jesses frame with that BB, I would return it. If I got it for free I would probably keep it too.
So many people are hard on Nero Show today, i am glad i have learned something new, when buy a new frame and has undersized BB, egg shaped , try to install high quality BB, remove and dispose of it , go buy $35 plastic Sram DUB cups and live happy with the results, !!!! Even Hambini would agree with this method >GENIUS
Watched your video and it left me thinking, WTF has PT said that you guys didn't show? Watched PT'S video and I now think that you guys have well and truly ended up looking like a pair of muppets! I would say an apology is required and it should be heading South to North.
@@alexasher looking at millers shocked face... Lol... this just add to my previous observations - this dude is 100% gay. He acts like a triggered lesbian
Jesse always has bad takes but completely missed PT taking the piss here 😂 The bottom bracket is a big deal. PT isn’t looking at things from “I can make it work” perspective, he is looking at it from engineering/QC point of view. A frame of this cost shouldn’t have this issue.
Casual viewer of both PT and this channel here, but this does feel like a huge overreaction. Yeah, the 'boutique bike builder' comment may be a bit off but the point being made was that the frame was given to someone else to build so you wouldn't know about the issues. I don't think it's the huge criticism that you've taken it to be, but the issues PT has experienced absolutely need to be called out. BTW... it isn't really 'fixing' an undersized BB by using one that has some flex in the plastic shell. Unfortunately, you'll absolutely be put on a pedestal for criticism if you receive products from manufacturers free of charge. That practice, in itself, really should mean that you go over it with a fine tooth comb to ensure any subsequent reviews / promotion of the item are thorough and as neutral as possible. If the review process feels vague, or an afterthought, then credibility is a difficult one to manage. All of this 30 minute chat could have been condensed into "I'm not an engineer but I've not had most of the issues that PT has highlighted. However, I am a bike racer and it does that well". End of the day, you've got loads of engagement from publishing this video which is what it's designed to do... everyone's happy!
Why does Jesse think that comment was ONLY about him? The fucking Tavelo is all over instagram with fancy builds hence the generic poke at it. And add gaslight shiller miller into the mix these guys have really pissed me off. I was chill about this at first but all they want is drama. Where is their original content? Why don’t they actually make some.
Given the relatively high price of the frame, Niro Show, GC performance and other youtubers have a responsibility to carefully review the product. Saying that "i didn't experience the problem in the frame I got" is not good enough. Shipping a bb that does not fit is laughable given the price. Its easy to see this product is been given more attention than it deserves by vloggers. This should be a concern for the consumer. Thanks to PT for calling out all the issues.
Coming back to this while thing, it all seems a bit of a shame really. I really enjoy both shows and loved the episode when peak torque was on Nero. Seems the relationship now irreparably damaged. All a bit stupid and egg over all faces.
Wow I was expecting a much more chill response, this is a bit disappointing. I don't think there was half as much "liar" name-calling in PT's video as is assumed here - the whole focus is on the build quality/ability to build the bike, which you guys (or anyone else) didn't really talk about.
I appreciate hearing the issues with QC with a bike. I have a trek whose fork brake mounts are wonky, same with a Lynskey. Changed the bottom bracket on my Trek myself and the overspray around the bottom bracket is a pain. I think you give bike shops too much credit. Trying to find a shop willing to face stuff around where I live is dang near impossible.
You defo should have mentioned the bb, not acceptable. If it was my money I would be pissed. I think you might lose some trust from your viewers. Just be honest up front!
I mean, you guys are the marketing team for all the products from China. I’m not surprised you were called out. I recall a video where you said, 'We want sponsors, sponsor us.' Well, when you have sponsors and you promote their bikes on your channel, you become responsible if the product turns out to be subpar. So if you don’t like being called out, then either avoid getting sponsored or refrain from showcasing any bikes on your channel. Also, you said “ Is spent all day at the bike shop” sure, but, did you tell your audience all the issues the frame was having? Or did you just avoid talking about it and showcase the final product in your channel without mentioning the bads?
Tavelo Official Response to Peak Torque Concerns Peak Torque Concerns I have some more issues about the engineering: 1. The bb shell is slightly undersized (40.87 to 40.92) but i will confirm a more accurate measurement 2. The fork expander is very tight in the fork (even when loosened bolt) 3. The black steerer shim does not fit in the gap. Too tight 4. The seat post wedge clamp edges arrived damaged and are very sharp. They have damaged the seat-post. I always mention in videos that sharp corners that clamp on carbon need to be smoothed and chamfered on the engineering drawings. 5. The one-piece headset top cap has too much friction and is difficult to preload. A separate bolt and cap would be better in my opinion. Tavelo’s Response: We would like to extend our gratitude to Alex for his time and thorough review of our Tavelo AROW frame set. Although the initial impressions of his two early production framesets were not entirely satisfactory, we have since addressed several of the issues he highlighted. Additionally, we are incorporating many of the constructive suggestions he mentioned in his video for further improvements. We take Alex’s feedback seriously and are committed to refining our product based on his valuable insights. 1. The production of Peak Torque’s frames was expedited to ensure the quickest delivery. However, this haste led to a lapse in quality control, particularly in the bottom bracket (BB) area. Improperly fitted BB covers allowed leakage of the transparent curing putty, which, once hardened, behaves like epoxy resin. (This putty is applied after sanding off the mold release agent and serves as a paint primer.) The leakage compromised the BB area, leading to potential issues with tolerances and shape. To address this, we now use properly sized rubber sleeve covers for the BB area, preventing contamination of the BB surfaces. Our updated mass production process includes a 100% inspection of all installation surfaces to ensure they meet the required tolerances. Additionally, regarding our supplied Bottom Brackets - we have worked with our BB supplier to implement rigorous tolerance and quality control procedures, preventing future complications with their products. 2. This issue arises from the O-ring on the expander, which necessitates high design accuracy. We aim to maintain a precise fit; however, if the installation is performed according to the provided instructions, the process should remain straightforward without complications. To enhance aerodynamic performance and achieve a sleeker head tube profile, we opted for a D-shaped steer tube. This decision necessitated the design of a custom D-shaped expander plug. The expander requires a specialized installation process, which we will detail in a comprehensive "User Instruction Manual" to facilitate proper installation and disassembly. 3. We were not anticipating any tolerance issues with the CNC steer shim from our supplier. Unfortunately, as Alex discovered, the shim was oversized. We have since addressed this by implementing a rigorous testing process to ensure each shim fits correctly. 4. As Alex noted, the seat post wedge was damaged during shipment, resulting in sharp edges on the wedge,the damage of BB plastic shell was also damaged during shipment.We have since enhanced our packaging to better protect all components during transit, ensuring they arrive in perfect condition and preventing similar issues in the future. 5. Future frame-sets will be shipped with two-piece headset cap & bolt, as well as the one-piece unit.Using one-piece headset cap requires adding grease according to "User Instruction Manual".
Imagine sending a product out for review without doing the basic checks first…. personally I simply now wouldn’t trust any of the QC procures for the regular paying public
You guys are sending a frame to PT or Hambini & you’re not TRIPLE CHECKING IT?! That’s insane. At least we know it wasn’t a « Hambini Special » but still… like you had it coming
Honestly mechanics figure this kinda stuff out daily. And we as consumers never know. All good Jesse, you ride more than most people, I trust your assessments!
You're over reacting to PT. Frame quality is PT main point and he provides context on quality concerns. A Better benchmark would be a side by side comparison of a similarly priced competitor frame.
jesse coyle is a shiller and a sellout mate, try to build your own bike with these chinese parts before praising mediocre stuff. if that frame costs 2k, it should be easy to build without LBS wizardry. tavelo quality is on par with cheasphiet velobuild frames
OY! C’mon Jesse , you and Chris are great together and I never miss a cast or any of Mr Torques as well. The man knows of what he speaks and I took it as a bit of jest. I’m Canadian so maybe I’ve missed something 🤷🏻♂️. You two need to iron this misunderstanding out mate🤝
Yeah you’ve got this wrong here, fellas. You’re being far far too sensitive for what was quite obviously PT taking the mick. You could’ve surely clarified this with him privately before laying in to him here.
As far as this PT thing goes - One thing I'll say is that I like listening to / watching you guys because of your healthy level of cynicism regarding cycling products and the industry in general. I haven't watched any cycling UA-camrs who I would say are less 'shill' or more honest than you two. I did watch Peak Torque's video before seeing this one, and it certainly never made me question your integrity, or that of the people around you. Keep up the good work.
I found your show about 6 months ago and I’ve continued watching weekly because I find that you guys have a good chemistry and I enjoy your conversations about cycling. In no way would I consider either of you “Bike Reviewers”. I value your opinions but you guys aren’t a bike review channel and you clearly aren’t trying to be. Just two guys talking about bike stuff and I like it. You guys have something good. When I’m buying a cycling product or a bike, I draw information from many sources and make my decision based on the general consensus of the quality and value of said product. I would never base my decision solely on a single person’s opinion. Honestly, I’m more interested in opinions from actual customers than any UA-cam channel…except maybe Hambini..lol. Lots of people in the comments here are coming down pretty hard on you guys for your reaction. I haven’t seen PT’s video but if you guys felt like your integrity was being besmirched, you have the right to feel that way and respond in kind. Keep doing what you’re doing guys, you’re doing a good job 👍🏻
Dunno if you're just making more of the Peak Torque comment to create some beef and get more views, but he didn't seem to he calling you a liar in his video. It was more like he was saying that because Jesse had a professional mechanic build his bike, he won't have picked up on the issues/snags that PT encountered. That was my take anyway. 🤷♂️
why on gods green earth would one want to go off to purchase a BB shell that can deform because you have a deformed BB with a passed quality control check on it. There should be a 0 tollerance for this when purchasing a frame, which to be honest, is not a small amount of money. This is not small change I would have laying around my house. Defending it is insanity.
Also another point worth mentioning and I stand to be corrected but as far as I'm aware PT paid for his frame and Jesse and GC performance was sent free frames. It's not too much of a stretch to imagine they sent you and GC performance cherry-picked frames (unbeknownst to you), hence why you guys had much fewer issues.
PT calling you out seemed more like banter than anything really serious. And it seems like companies are just sending PT the products that really didn't pass QC. He's been frustrated about this himself but I guess he's also riding with it. Nonetheless keep the show going it's been fun lol
Received my size 580 Arow 1 month ago (QX580F0103). The mechanic who built my bike had a lot of praise of the frame quality, and didn't have any of these QC issues. Bike has been great so far after 1,000 miles.
If we READ Tavelo’s response on here, they mentioned they’ve addressed some of PT concerns before that - or your production frame wouldn’t have been problem free weeks ago.
All drama aside the fact that all three frames had issues at this price point is piss poor. The selling point of a Chinese frame for me has to be manufacturing perfection. The ‘I just used a different bb’ defence doesn’t wash. At that money you could buy second hand western branded frame, which may still have issues but a least says Pinarello on the down tube.
I think you guys are getting too bent out of shape about the Peak Torque comment. I watched that video and took his reference to Jesse as a bit of fun ribbing. I think you guys are a bit thin skinned and OTT in taking it so personally and spending so much time defending yourself.
Lads lads lads. Will tune in later on the drive. Just banter, never said you were liar. I thought my crap Aussie accent would have been taken in jest. Got my hands on 2. Not 1. At the end of day, both frames have a green QC PASS sticker on the bottom and a serial number . Thus, they get analysed that way as if another customer would receive them. Ps Jesse i defended you in those accusative comments to my own video… and i never talked shit about Edwin. You’re barking up the wrong tree here pal. You have made my Tavelo video about you.
You can get two hands on mine any time. You'll need them.
@@PeakTorque you would be bit surprised how serious Jesse took you! 😂😂
Fan of both shows! 👍
PT, you hurt his feelings. Really triggered him.
we have this thing called DR(design review) in engineering, and PT did that on a released frameset Did Tavelo's design outsource skipped that part? Either way, the real issue is that the QC is SHIT.
@@PeakTorque you're good on my book pt. I know you'll all be adults that knows how to handle this. at the end of the day, thsu is why I tune in to many peoples reviews/comments/opinions about stuff because we might get facts we never imagined possible
It looks to me like a obvious friendly joke from Peak Torque and blown out overreaction on Jesse's part. It was so hard to watch. You guys are so eager to bash everyone around but when someone rises concerns about something you haven't been super vocal about you loose your minds and start defending not only yourself but the product. You saw quality of the frame in his video, if you paid your money for a frame and got the same would you try to mask the issues? His rant was legit imo
Two VERY sensitive guys
@@simonRt well, I don't disagree but I get it from Jesse's perspective too. Exactly because the two are often critical, they rely on being trustworthy themselves. I guess the audience that follows both channels gets this and understands both PT's snark and that Chris and Jesse are no shills (and no engineers either).
But considering the comments, there's also an audience that doesn't get all this. And I think this is really what triggered the strong reaction - fear of a threat to your credibility.
@@HinduReal I agree. Unfortunately they didn't react in a friendly manner which would put PT words in an "obviously joking" category. Instead a hostile attitude may look like they are feeling guilty, or trying to hide something. I really hope they resolve the situation, PT already posted de-escalating comment.
Exactly. PT has a following that doesn't get it is snark, and PT should be aware of this and take it into his account in his communication style. Otherwise he will end up with a situation like Hambini has with Reginald Scott at some point or another.
He already took a dump on Benji from LRCP for his fitness, which was also just banter, but this is now becoming a pattern.
@FT__Bicycling_____-sc7yv yeah, considering this is UA-cam and them doing this for a while you'd think they'd take it with a grain of salt and move on.
Generally a bigger fan of Nero than PT, but this was painful to watch. Could not be more obvious that PT's jab at Jesse was done sarcastically and with no intent whatsoever to imply lack of integrity. There seems to be pretty much unanimous agreement (even in your own video's comment section) on this. For how much this show relies on banter, it's honestly hard to grasp how easily you've got your panties bunched here. We all get a wrong read now and again, hope you guys can show some humility and admit how wrong you got this one in a future video or something.
It was banter at Jesse's expense - here's the answer, take it and shut it
Yeah kinda surprised by the response. Nero show is my favorite but this seems excessive
Long time fan of this channel, although reconsidering, but I doubt Jesse will have the humility to acknowledge this. Otherwise they would've said something by now...
@lazeroth89 it might have been banter, but it still instilled doubts ithehr viewer. No wonder Jesse didn't like it. He's got every right to refute the video
So my take on this is that I regularly watch the Nero Show and I like their generally blunt and direct banter, with some levity tossed in for good measure. And with the Tavelo build, Jesse was his usual no-nonsense self, telling us his initial impressions and saying he is going faster on it than his rim-brake Giant. Details to follow, he added. Great, got it. Then I saw part of the Peak Torque video and, as an occasional viewer, I wasn't sure if the call-out was serious or playful. It was brief, sure, but it did seem to link Jesse to the marketing jive both he and Chris regularly disparage on the Nero Show, so I can understand Jesse wanting to defend his reputation and his experience with his Tavelo frame. It may have been a genuinely playful inside joke, but most viewers are not insiders, probably best not to joke about others. Themselves, sure, and viewers about hosts, sure, like I was initially wondering, hey, what's up with Jesse, long a rim-brake Giant loyalist, not being allowed by Chris to ride the new Giant with those fancy disc brakes. 😀
As just a viewer with of course no skin in the game and no reason to have an emotional response to anything PT said. I didn't think he was saying Jesse was "lying" and "misleading viewers" but that he would have just sent the bike off to get it built up(like most people who aren't bike mechanics and not short of cash) so of course would have had no idea about these potential issues like the undersized BB, headset etc etc. So I think you may have taken him the wrong way. Just my 2cents.
Yeh that's how I understood it when I saw his video.
That is how i understood it too. For me it was not even a call out guys. And the only ones cooking this up are you two.
Me too but it’s not my first language
It's how I understood it too.
Likewise .. that’s the way I also understood it. I don’t believe it was a personal attack towards Jesse.
Peak Torque is misleading everybody he thinks his gauge is enough for my bore.
😂😂😂😂😂😂 good one
📏🕳🤏🏼
Thank God for you, I was starting to think that all these engineering folks were booooooooring 😂
@@melbournecyclingsegments7510 I don't think i could be described as boring. Getting shot. Banging the uni professor's wife, getting thrown out of uni a couple of times etc. Getting sued umpteen times.
Colourful, not boring!
We need two fingers test 😂
Jesse, Peak Torque's comment about you sounded like a banter. It did not sound like he called you a liar. You took it too strongly than it was intended.
agreed, lighten up Francis
Quit crying both of you. I couldn’t watch it after a few minutes. Get a life.
No. Get real. PT was being an ass.
@@donwinston fanboy alert...woop woop
Yep, clickbait
As a viewer of both Nero show and Peak Torque, it was pretty clear that his offhand reference to you Jessie (and ccache) was just tongue in cheek sardonic banter.
It is pretty clear from his other videos that his actual opinion of both of you as bike riders is very high. It is not his fault UA-cam comments are as always utter trash.
It is true that a certain part of UK cycling UA-cam (Hambini, Peak Torque, Mapdec) is very engendering focused, caliper obbessed (perhaps too much) and there is a bit of a cultural clash when that audience encounters the more riding/racing focused Nero show.
@@friendofships spot on
He was not really going after you. But the QC issues probably make these a bad option for anyone who does not have a relationship with a good mechanic.
Lol don't put mapdick in the same line with PT. Mapdick is a certified clown who knows shit
This!!!
@@friendofships it kinda is your fault if the comments are always trash if thats the audience you curate and pander to
PT barely mentioned Jessie and did a straight forward review on the product he got. Jessie and Chris went on a personal attack. Just saying…
I apologise on behalf of all Australians, I promise we can take the bants
British humour is lost on the rest of the world, watching you 2 having a meltdown is hilarious 😂
It's not their fault. Older Australians grew up with Fawlty Towers, Benny Hill, Young Ones and Black Adder. These young chaps missed out....
@@richardggeorge Oh yes, so true all what I watched. Nothing beats Benny Hill music
@@richardggeorge even though I'm German (I know, I know, don't judge me): Fawlty Towers ftw
I mean, as far as I know Chris is from Ireland and should totally get it. Bit surprised tbh
I’m not British or Australian, but I had Benny Hill music playing in the background in my mind the entire soapbox time. :D Bro-drama fun.
Sounds like they're taking it too seriously or playing it up for some YT drama. PT made a 5 second joke and continued to the roast the frame, not the Nero show.
exactly this, passing banter - nothing more
Typical Aussies
No need for roasting Nero show. those 2 insecure clowns take care of it by themselves
Millennials suffering butthurt. I love the tears... getting more popcorn. 🤣😈
Faux outrage and UA-cam drama is their MO.
I think it was just banter from PT tbh
Totally! You guys are taking this way too seriously! O_O
More banter: Proof right here, you are responding to Peak Torque like shelds !
yeah 100%, they've read this completely wrong.
Check the comment section of PTs video, a fair amount of viewers are praising him and trashing “dishonest reviewers” on UA-cam.
I think to call it Banter would be having Jesse on board first. I don't think the comments are banter and I suspect that maybe strikes a cord more. To put out an honest opinion to try and help guide the general public and then be a called a liar (as a joke or not) nobody would enjoy. I suspect his build was that bad he struggled to believe anyone was telling the truth but there is a way to go about it
Peak torque went to town on this frame, good information for anyone who’s considering buying one. Like P.K says it’s not like it’s a cheap frame it’s mid range and above. It’s a big investment for the average joe.
His two were early models which later YT’s who received frames didn’t have. If he would have made this video weeks before everyone else, all the former YT’s could have had the opportunity to verify his comments. Which none had the issues he had. Sad thing is, he knew by that time his was a unique situation but he decide to roast anyways and not cross reference any other YT’s experience. Just me me me
Lads, he was taking the piss about how you got it built at a bike shop, rather than doing it yourself on discovering these QC issues first hand. Elite cyclists and not being able to take the slightest bit of banter 🤝
This frame is $2200 , there shouldn't be problems like this.
They charge what they think people will pay. Not what's it worth
Exactly, simple
Not worth it 💯
simple, no discussion needed
Buy a frame from your local shop that has good customer service.
Call me a snob but saving an extra $500-$1,000 isn’t worth it to me on a new bike. I rather pay the extra $1,000 and get a bike that I know is made well and a bike I will keep for years to come.
Boys you probably should have delayed the show a day or so to take a breath. You will cringe when you play this back. I normally watch full length of the show each week, not today..
Agreed! Especially the stuff they dish out against other YT channels etc!
@@anthonymiller4004 Agree, should have let things cool down and come back to it with cool heads.
I also got 1/3 of the way through. Couldn't get past the butt hurt.
Agreed, first time in 90 odd shows i have skipped most of it
Same here, Jesse being sooo offended was painful to watch, I gave up at 8 minutes in. Poor showing, Nero boys.
re the BB - "shouldn't happen but I'm not crying about it" you also didn't spend 1880USD on the frame
This is called QUALITY CONTROL. They don’t have it. Your frame has issues you could go around, but his frame has far worst ones then yours. I wouldn’t buy a product that has faulty or none QC and end up losing my dollars! Good luck with Chinese stuff!!! 😂😂😂
every western brand has a major recalls or two, but you're still buying them.
The core issue the PT is addressing is that these Chinese brands are hand picking frames for the UA-cam viewers that do not reflect their broader QC/quality. The result is that consumers are misled. Also, let's dispense with the "there's no financial gain for JC" line. Yes, there is - he received a bike worth thousands for free.
"They don’t have it (QC)". How do you know? Can you document that? If you watch some of Mapdecs videos quite a few "western" brands also seem to have "some" qc problems, even those with quite a hefty price tag.
@@boc-tonysyklist2145 basic QC would catch the egg shaped bottom bracket LMAO
@@jacklalalaful Didn´t say it was perfect, just extra careful ;-p
How to make a 30 min reaction to a 2 second pun.
Worst episode in a while lads.
Chill mates. It was banter, if PT called you out for anything it was only getting a mechanic to build it for you.
He's just shit stirring and they fell for it
Pretty defensive, found it weord
@@jelbic thought his head was gonna explode 🤯
Their insecurities are showing
This is when I notice how young you are - boys dont dramatize a comment.
Or dont you have other content?
This is such a Sydney male reaction to something that was very obviously just banter.
Honestly, fellas, I watched the video and felt like PT's "callout" was a lighthearted jest. I did not get the vibe at all that it was an actual blast. This probably was worth a phone call or message before taking it up a notch. I think you'll find that his intention was not malicious.
This video is pure slop
Doesn't hold its speed 😂
Bit flexy but spins up well
Honestly this is embarrassing. You dish out crap to everyone (which is great) but one small comment and you both overreact and get defensive.
Important to note that while the frame you got was mostly fine, it would have been carefully picked for you with additional QC unlike the regular customers who order it.
Typical gay behavior. Man just look at miller. There is no chance this dude is straight
Wow, you took it very seriously. I think PT was bantering and you're reacting strongly to some critique that isn't there. Sometimes it's worthwhile to not react immediately and gain some perspective, at least it works like that for me when I interpret something as criticism / personal attack. Many times it isn't.
When talking about the BB, you show your mechanic struggle with the press fit, then you show your mechanic using an enormous amount of torque, a big ole' breaker bar, you can see him straining, to get a thread-together bottom bracket into your press fit shell... that didnt' "fix" the problem... he just muscled it in.
The bottom bracket issue is huge.. You shouldn't have to deal with that at this price point. I agree with peak torque, that's a deal breaker for most and you shouldn't be recommending it..
And yet he mentioned it anyway about the BB issue (Jesse)
Jesse has a paper thin ego and cant understand basic banter from PT. Nobody is calling you a liar but GCPerformance is looking kinda suspect tbh
kinda?
GC always looks sus'
@@SuperDodoe GC, Nero, many others lost any credibility,
Did Nero ever had one ? I doubt it... Those two, especially chrisy would suck dick for sponsorships. You already forgot how he cried on every episode he can't get any ?
GC is a bike shop owner, all videos of his should be viewed as advertisements to some degree.
I read the comments first before watching the show, finally got to understand how Jesse got quite emotional. I know that you mature adults will talk it out on private soon but as what everyone else have said, it was honestly just banter from PT. i don't think he has any ill will from that. you guys all chill and let's have the usual thing in our little cycling bubble.
And we thought Aussies were more resilient. this butthurt duo routine is just cringey
I think you are acting very defensive. The QC issues with BB, headset, seatpost are all valid points. You should not need to come up with a work around. All the issues where you also expeirenced you are downplaying. Users expect everything to work witrhout issues when buying a new frame. Also keep in mind that he is coming as this from an engineering standpoint.. Most of the issues are valid, not the other way around. Even if some of the issues are unique to him, the fact that there are multiple issues, calls out there are QC issues with Tavelo's manufacturing process. With that said, I do agree that Peak Torque shouldn't have called you out personally.
Am I going to trust a qualified Mechanical Engineer or two slick boys from Sydney... mmmmm?
@@ConstantRider I don’t think they were arguing over anything. PT had a lot of problems with his frame(s). Others didn’t. So it’s a QC issue. Your comment about who to trust is exactly why Jesse isn’t happy. Because idiots watch it and have this kind of take.
On this episode of two Australians get butt hurt over English humour. PT didn't say you were shills or missleading, just that you paid a bike shop to deal with the frame that should be good from the factory.
And they telling like he says the mechanic is bad or something. Actually if u cannot see the problems while riding, like PT suggested, its a compliment to the mechanic not the other way around.
Which is extra hilarious considering australians like to pretend they are kings of banter themselves. What happened to them to make their skins so incredibly thin.
He got 2 Tavelo frames with the same issues. He got really unlucky😂. Tavelo is not a cheap chinese frame. Making a too small BB is a scandal on a frame that cost 1800-2000 Usd.
Especially when you have no opportunity to get back up from the manufacturer when stuff goes wrong.
Unlucky or poor manufacturing process on the brand
( Nero's free Tavelo also had the undersized BB). So that's 3 out of 3 😮
Luck has nothing to do with it. Very likely Tavelo sent JC a handpicked frame intended to deceive audiences because it doesn't reflect their broader QC or manufacturing quality.
Will be interested in the bearing life of Jesse's BB. READ - Hambini's page on 30mm and DUB spindles in PF 86/92 being a recipe for disaster. This info plus poor QC means an even possible worse outcome .😮
You guys are too funny today, comical how Jesse did not have the issues and went over one by one, turns out he did too noticed the same issues. Had he have to buy the frame, bb, groupset with his own money and pay a shop to do the work few times over his attitude would have been different , between the crappy frame, crappy Chinese grpupset, having 2 shops do the work twice he sure has a lot of courage to come out swinging like this . I can only imagine if the western brands would release such dud products what the reaction would be
You guys are going off about nothing with the peak torque beef. He never said 90% of the stuff you are claiming. Never called you a liar. Never said you're getting paid. I don't get this video, very bad look.
Jesse, I'm British. We are sarcastic, that was Banter. Your viewers won't drop because PT made a cheeky 7 second edit with your name, he even attempted a terrible accent. What will lose you support is a rant that lasts over 26minutes........ legit having watched the PT video prior to this the only thing I remembered about you from it was friendly banter between mates and the rest was interesting about the complications building up the bike as I enjoy building my own. I actually thought when you started that rant you would have laughed it off and said something funny in response. But the way you took it had me considering hitting the unsubscribe. Its sad really.
22:06 what repercussion *should* one face for calling out a non-round, undersized BB and a shit seat clamp design that's broken to boot?!
Thanks for highlighting PT's comments. You prompted me to check out what he said and let's just say I won't be buying a Tavelo frame.
12:33-13:43. Why should you have to get another BB? Case closed in my book.
Nahhhhh, according to Jesse C you should buy $35 plastic cups and install because they have better give. How pathetic is that approach ????? We have access to best BB on the market , premium bearings, ceramic bearings, precision CNC but nooooo. Go plastic and ride happy.
‘I’m not here crying about [the fact my frame has crap tolerances and should have never left the factory]’ 😂😂😂😂
PeakTorque dropped a truth show again, what a legend!
Embarrassing yourselves lads, wasn't questioning your integrity. Granted, you didn't encounter all the same issues as he did, but you did skirt over the bb fault, just because you found a fix doesn't make it OK.
He didn't question your mechanics skills or integrity either, just suggested you should get them in to give their build experience
The bottom bracket issue is bad. It is now seemingly a consistent issue.. The bars don't bother me.. The uncut fork length is going to make it inappropriate for a lot of customers. The inability to use cabeled Di2 would concerning.
But an engineer will look at things a bit differently from a mechanic as they are in a better position to see design issues potentially problematic.
Some Chinese frame companies seem more mature than others. I own three Chinese frames. I would not buy a Tavelo.
Which frames you own? Finished grad school and starting a real job in a new city. Thinking about upgrading my alu gravel bike. But also there's a lot more road cycling here so also considering that direction.
@@cjohnson3836 1. ICAN A10. This is a rim brake bike with a very aero frame, super light, very fast. It has been completely trouble-free from day one, and the mechanic who built it up told me he was super impressed by the overall build quality. I put Ultegra DI2 on it and I still love that bike and ride it a lot. It's got thousands of miles on it. 2. I have a Yoeleo R12, which is their allround aero roadbike. I should note that this is the second one of those I had because the first one had to be replaced under warranty. Getting that arranged was NOT easy!!! Their customer service is pretty bad overall except for one guy there who finally helped me. But I like the bike a lot. I very much appreciate the geometry which is not super aggressive like the Tavelo that is the subject of this video. It's not the lightest bike out there either, mine is 8 kg with pedals on. but it's fairly typical for its class. Very comfortable, stable in fast decents. 3. I also have a Yoleo R11, which is lighter and which they describe as a climbing bike. I don't like it very much and also the hole for the bottom bracket was too large. It creaks. I'm eventually going to have to figure that out. Long story how I got that frame. I also have a lot of experience with Chinese wheels. I've had several sets of ICAN wheels (Aero 50) and they have all been fantastic although should be noted they are not the most modern design out there, but great value for the money and good build quality. I had a set of Yoeleo SAT but they were not very good and developed cracks around the spoke holes fairly early on. I have a set of Eiite 50D wheels and they're so far fantastic. The bottom line is I will never spend any more money on a Yoeleo product. I would not hesitate to buy a frame or a wheel from ICAN (who also have great customer service).. And I would definitely consider Winspace. Possibly Elves
Those customers should look at an endurance bike. PT is super tall, Chinese frames don’t really cater for super tall Western riders. It’s made to run slammed or little stack and either 12 speed Di2 wireless or Etap. Sorry guys who’s running old stuff, tech moves on.
@justinkase8716 Yes, that's true. I'm a bit taller, so I've looked into this a lot. Some are better than others for taller people (but PT is really tall). Two that have longer head tubes are the ICAN A9 and Yoeleo R12 (ICAN is a much easier company to deal with). Those aren't frames in the Tarmac SL8 weight range like the newest Winspace, but for a lot of people will be a really good option. They run around 1000-1200 USD for the frames. And yes, in the future, I'll probably run wireless groupsets, but my 11 sp Ultegra Di2 is bulletproof and excellent. A lot of people like me may transfer a groupset from one bike to another, so PT's info was useful.
lmao why so serious
that's what happens when you get caught with your hand in the cookie jar
Let's just throw a rational argument out there... Rare for a UA-cam comments section...
It was clearly banter from PT, HOWEVER, it's the connections ascociated with it which imply that there is a lack of integrity. I can completely understand Jesse's reaction to the above, might be a little blown up in parts but for me it's pretty justified. These are passionate guys and especially on reading comments under PT's video I can see how he wants to fight his corner and has every right to do so considering the experience he has had.
Whole thing is just a tad misunderstood but both parties are correct in this case. If anything it highlights what we already know with Chinese gear that's QC is "hit and miss".
I hope Nero can invite PT on and clear the air in an episode soon and may lead to further conversations on how to approach these providers going forward.
Enjoyed the episode. Top work as usual lads l.
If you need to buy a plastic BB because the $150 one you bought that should fit can’t fit……. That’s shit. As a bike mechanic, I’d be telling my customer get a refund.
I don’t see any question regarding your integrity. But ppl are listening to your comments and review of a product, for you, it was no big deal that you needed to go out and get a different BB. For me and for other ppl, they would consider that a complete fail.
Come on Jessie. Getting your knickers in a twist and then admit that your BB was also egg shaped? Why didn’t you say that in your review? It’s a deal breaker as regards quality control.
Jessie acts like an eggshaped bb isnt a big deal on a $2200 frame
@@SuperDodoe Jessie acts like an eggshaped bb
Peak torque fighting nero is like your parents going through it 😂
We'll watch from upstairs.
💯
@@helmetculture Are these guys father figures for you?
Proof that Jesse can't take what he likes to dish out. Have we forgotten how many people and things you've insulted since starting this podcast?
Chris, Jessie, I think the best thing you can do here is look upon this as a learning experience. If you want to review bikes and be taken seriously, lean into that competitive spirit and raise your game!
i) I don't want to denigrate either of your bike mechanic's skills, but the standard worldwide is obviously quite low. @Mapdec should be the norm, but I've yet to see anyone else showing what it takes to _properly_ correct these dreadful BBs and brake mounts etc. Pretty much I'm not going to take seriously any assessment of frame quality unless it's subject to the same level meticulous attention to detail we see from Paul and his colleagues, I want to see how much it's going to cost in money and hassle to properly put things right.
Even if the manufacturers should be doing all this at the QC stage, it's pretty clear that the overwhelming majority of bike mechanics and workshops need to dramatically improve. A 'fix' that appears to work for a few weeks/months is a bodge if you then end up with a creaking BB, ruined axle, or ruined frame 1-2 years down the line. The right tools for facing, sizing and aligning are the only way to go.
ii) You absolutely cannot spin the Tavelo issues in a positive light :/ between Jessie's frame and PT's two frames, that's _three out of three_ that have out of spec BBs. How many times do we need to hammer this point? It's a _hole that should be round and the correct size._ It's obscene when it isn't on any bike, whether it be a $500 frame or a $7500 frame. The bike industry and its' brands absolutely deserve to be crucified for this.
I'm in the UK, the sale of goods act say that goods should be free of minor defects, including cosmetic defects. I think most or Europe is similar, and yet it has become normalized that we consistently receive functionally defective products. We are morally and legally entitled to better than this. Don't make excuses or attempt to play down any defects, you earn the shill label when you do that.
iii) Your ride experience's are totally valid, but the reality is it only has (very) limited value in terms of a bike review e.g. Jessie is lighter and _a lot_ more powerful than me, probably the case for many, if not most viewers. Grant (GC performance) is probably closer in terms of being relatable, but he rides in pan flat Florida, whereas I am in a relentlessly steep part of the UK with poor road quality, so again his ride experience is limited in how valuable it is.
I will likely watch Jessie's video when it drops, and it's good that he's taking his time over it, but what we've seen so far is mostly the benefits of contemporary aero and disc vs round tubes and rim brake wheels. It doesn't really say much particularly about the Arow.
You can't really do anything about the large variation in morphology between riders, so I'm not sure what you can do other than be really clear about any subtle nuances between bikes. You probably need to ride a lot more bikes and do back to back to back comparisons.
iv) You are going to be called shill no matter what you do. You can buy stuff with your own money or be subscriber funded, and 'ream' products Hambini style, some people will never believe there is any integrity in what you do. However, whenever you're accepting _anything_ from brands or sponsors, you are clearly and unambiguously part of their marketing whether you like it or not.
There is a no-win situation there, you do need good relationships in general with brands if you want regular access to review products, and a means to pay the bills. It's is a difficult line to tread, I think Dave Arthur is quite artful in what he says and what he doesn't say, but a lot of it goes over viewers' heads as he gets called shill more than anyone.
Pretty much you're going to have to develop a much thicker skin and learn to address criticism and shortcomings in any review or product showcase, the one thing that is certain is you can't afford to gloss over product design and manufacturing defects.
v) FWIW, I think there are plenty of channels reviewing bikes that are pure trash and they have been called out many times, they don't even try to change and don't have any value, I don't think there are many people putting yourselves into that category, mostly the response is a demand for much higher review standards.
vi) Finally, while Chinese brands do come under fire a lot, and rightly so in many cases, the whole bike industry is under fire. Plenty of folks regularly disgust at $6500 Pinarello frames for poor paint, slipping seat tubes, disintegrating computer mounts etc. Factor have been found out, similar quality issues as everyone else and claimed weights that are just fantasy :/
From my perspective, if I could afford a $15K hyper-bike, there is literally _nothing_ available that I could say I fully trust the brand and quality, _and_ can get the features and looks that would appeal to me, and that's just wrong. Everything mid-tier to upper tier should be fantastic every time at the prices being asked.
Stopped reading after mentioned mapdick. This dude is a clown
Jesse, your skin is way too thin :)
Having to hear you defend yourself like that was so cringe. PT should have called you before publishing his video probably, and / or you should have called him instead of over reacting like that.
Let's call that cultural misunderstanding.
All of the "I didn't have that problem" statements goes a long way in confirming the point that their QC is whack.
also, Jesse was sent a free frame. of course they'll ensure the QC is better on that one
Lads, such an Aussie response, happy to dish it out but take personal offence if anyone does it back.
Really? not all.of us are piss-weak snowflakes full of woke BS. Some of us truly eat cement and just harden the f'up
LOL thats exactly what we say about the brits
As a Brit I can say this is also true
This totally. it's laughable. No where did he call them "liars" or anything. He made one bit of joking banter. Jeez, seeing how worked up they are is unreal
Riding the wave of Peak Torque's ballsy review that most don't dare to make.
I don't see how it was ballsy. It was a frame from a small builder that he bought himself. Doing an aggressive review like he did helps his views.
Bought? they were given to him. His two frames were early production which they had resolved hence why the other YT’s didn’t have issues. If he would have put his video out first - we would have heard different from the other guys either validating or explaining their experience.
Peak Torque will no doubt be on a future podcast and we will all tune in for the drama.
Inconsistency in QC from Tavelo should be the main message. Buyer’s beware.
If I paid for Jesses frame with that BB, I would return it.
If I got it for free I would probably keep it too.
first Raygun 🕺 now jesse Australia has seen better days
You left out the ball tampering saga in the cricket and resulting tears
So many people are hard on Nero Show today, i am glad i have learned something new, when buy a new frame and has undersized BB, egg shaped , try to install high quality BB, remove and dispose of it , go buy $35 plastic Sram DUB cups and live happy with the results, !!!! Even Hambini would agree with this method >GENIUS
Watched your video and it left me thinking, WTF has PT said that you guys didn't show? Watched PT'S video and I now think that you guys have well and truly ended up looking like a pair of muppets! I would say an apology is required and it should be heading South to North.
It finally happened. The nero show has become the touchy and defensive guys who take themselves way too seriously.
Those 2 drama Queens where always like that
Might be the last Nero show I watch tbh. Honestly had to turn it off after 3mins. Only whales and bats could listen to the high pitched whining.
@@alexasher looking at millers shocked face... Lol... this just add to my previous observations - this dude is 100% gay. He acts like a triggered lesbian
Jesse always has bad takes but completely missed PT taking the piss here 😂 The bottom bracket is a big deal. PT isn’t looking at things from “I can make it work” perspective, he is looking at it from engineering/QC point of view. A frame of this cost shouldn’t have this issue.
omg this drama has made me SO stiff and compliant
Uh so there's people buying random china frames based on a quick review from a guy that rides in circles? No offence tho
Casual viewer of both PT and this channel here, but this does feel like a huge overreaction. Yeah, the 'boutique bike builder' comment may be a bit off but the point being made was that the frame was given to someone else to build so you wouldn't know about the issues. I don't think it's the huge criticism that you've taken it to be, but the issues PT has experienced absolutely need to be called out. BTW... it isn't really 'fixing' an undersized BB by using one that has some flex in the plastic shell.
Unfortunately, you'll absolutely be put on a pedestal for criticism if you receive products from manufacturers free of charge. That practice, in itself, really should mean that you go over it with a fine tooth comb to ensure any subsequent reviews / promotion of the item are thorough and as neutral as possible. If the review process feels vague, or an afterthought, then credibility is a difficult one to manage.
All of this 30 minute chat could have been condensed into "I'm not an engineer but I've not had most of the issues that PT has highlighted. However, I am a bike racer and it does that well".
End of the day, you've got loads of engagement from publishing this video which is what it's designed to do... everyone's happy!
Why does Jesse think that comment was ONLY about him? The fucking Tavelo is all over instagram with fancy builds hence the generic poke at it. And add gaslight shiller miller into the mix these guys have really pissed me off. I was chill about this at first but all they want is drama. Where is their original content? Why don’t they actually make some.
@@PeakTorquebecause for some reason he thinks he is relevant 😂🤔😂
No way jesse has a 1500 watt sprint😂 all UA-camderes has amazing nr on their own pm
Wait, why is this so early? What am I supposed to watch tomorrow morning at 5am?
Given the relatively high price of the frame, Niro Show, GC performance and other youtubers have a responsibility to carefully review the product. Saying that "i didn't experience the problem in the frame I got" is not good enough. Shipping a bb that does not fit is laughable given the price. Its easy to see this product is been given more attention than it deserves by vloggers. This should be a concern for the consumer. Thanks to PT for calling out all the issues.
Amateurs. Send a couple of frames to me to cut up and review. 🤣
Im sure Joe @chinacycling will send you one💪
Coming back to this while thing, it all seems a bit of a shame really. I really enjoy both shows and loved the episode when peak torque was on Nero. Seems the relationship now irreparably damaged. All a bit stupid and egg over all faces.
Wow I was expecting a much more chill response, this is a bit disappointing. I don't think there was half as much "liar" name-calling in PT's video as is assumed here - the whole focus is on the build quality/ability to build the bike, which you guys (or anyone else) didn't really talk about.
Listening now, your issue is with the comments under his video which makes more sense. Chris you're going full conspiracy theory
I appreciate hearing the issues with QC with a bike. I have a trek whose fork brake mounts are wonky, same with a Lynskey. Changed the bottom bracket on my Trek myself and the overspray around the bottom bracket is a pain. I think you give bike shops too much credit. Trying to find a shop willing to face stuff around where I live is dang near impossible.
You defo should have mentioned the bb, not acceptable. If it was my money I would be pissed. I think you might lose some trust from your viewers. Just be honest up front!
He did call it out at the time 🤷🏻♂️
Loved the detail of PT's review of this frame.
shoehorning a plastic bb into an egg shaped bottom bracket on a 2200$ frame is really unacceptable
Easy guys, it's called British humor
As an Englishman living on Aus, they don't always get our sarcasm or piss taking
I mean, you guys are the marketing team for all the products from China. I’m not surprised you were called out. I recall a video where you said, 'We want sponsors, sponsor us.' Well, when you have sponsors and you promote their bikes on your channel, you become responsible if the product turns out to be subpar. So if you don’t like being called out, then either avoid getting sponsored or refrain from showcasing any bikes on your channel.
Also, you said “ Is spent all day at the bike shop” sure, but, did you tell your audience all the issues the frame was having? Or did you just avoid talking about it and showcase the final product in your channel without mentioning the bads?
Absolute scenes....youtuber violence looool. There's too much butt hurtedness to watch the entire ep
Tavelo Official Response to Peak Torque Concerns
Peak Torque Concerns
I have some more issues about the engineering:
1. The bb shell is slightly undersized (40.87 to 40.92) but i will confirm a more accurate measurement
2. The fork expander is very tight in the fork (even when loosened bolt)
3. The black steerer shim does not fit in the gap. Too tight
4. The seat post wedge clamp edges arrived damaged and are very sharp. They have damaged the seat-post. I always mention in videos that sharp corners that clamp on carbon need to be smoothed and chamfered on the engineering drawings.
5. The one-piece headset top cap has too much friction and is difficult to preload. A separate bolt and cap would be better in my opinion.
Tavelo’s Response:
We would like to extend our gratitude to Alex for his time and thorough review of our Tavelo AROW frame set. Although the initial impressions of his two early production framesets were not entirely satisfactory, we have since addressed several of the issues he highlighted. Additionally, we are incorporating many of the constructive suggestions he mentioned in his video for further improvements. We take Alex’s feedback seriously and are committed to refining our product based on his valuable insights.
1. The production of Peak Torque’s frames was expedited to ensure the quickest delivery. However, this haste led to a lapse in quality control, particularly in the bottom bracket (BB) area. Improperly fitted BB covers allowed leakage of the transparent curing putty, which, once hardened, behaves like epoxy resin. (This putty is applied after sanding off the mold release agent and serves as a paint primer.)
The leakage compromised the BB area, leading to potential issues with tolerances and shape. To address this, we now use properly sized rubber sleeve covers for the BB area, preventing contamination of the BB surfaces. Our updated mass production process includes a 100% inspection of all installation surfaces to ensure they meet the required tolerances.
Additionally, regarding our supplied Bottom Brackets - we have worked with our BB supplier to implement rigorous tolerance and quality control procedures, preventing future complications with their products.
2. This issue arises from the O-ring on the expander, which necessitates high design accuracy. We aim to maintain a precise fit; however, if the installation is performed according to the provided instructions, the process should remain straightforward without complications. To enhance aerodynamic performance and achieve a sleeker head tube profile, we opted for a D-shaped steer tube. This decision necessitated the design of a custom D-shaped expander plug. The expander requires a specialized installation process, which we will detail in a comprehensive "User Instruction Manual" to facilitate proper installation and disassembly.
3. We were not anticipating any tolerance issues with the CNC steer shim from our supplier. Unfortunately, as Alex discovered, the shim was oversized. We have since addressed this by implementing a rigorous testing process to ensure each shim fits correctly.
4. As Alex noted, the seat post wedge was damaged during shipment, resulting in sharp edges on the wedge,the damage of BB plastic shell was also damaged during shipment.We have since enhanced our packaging to better protect all components during transit, ensuring they arrive in perfect condition and preventing similar issues in the future.
5. Future frame-sets will be shipped with two-piece headset cap & bolt, as well as the one-piece unit.Using one-piece headset cap requires adding grease according to "User Instruction Manual".
The moral of this story is buy a Z3 frame
better add lifetime replacement and warranty on your low quality qc'd frame if youre charging 2k usd for that
Sounds like you’re testing your products on the paying public to me 🤔
Imagine sending a product out for review without doing the basic checks first…. personally I simply now wouldn’t trust any of the QC procures for the regular paying public
You guys are sending a frame to PT or Hambini & you’re not TRIPLE CHECKING IT?! That’s insane. At least we know it wasn’t a « Hambini Special » but still… like you had it coming
Honestly mechanics figure this kinda stuff out daily. And we as consumers never know. All good Jesse, you ride more than most people, I trust your assessments!
Jesse needs a poggio fr fr
You're over reacting to PT. Frame quality is PT main point and he provides context on quality concerns. A Better benchmark would be a side by side comparison of a similarly priced competitor frame.
jesse coyle is a shiller and a sellout mate, try to build your own bike with these chinese parts before praising mediocre stuff. if that frame costs 2k, it should be easy to build without LBS wizardry. tavelo quality is on par with cheasphiet velobuild frames
I don’t think this video will age well. I have really enjoyed the CMC YT channel but wow - what an over reaction by Jesse. Cringe
Why are you winding each other up. You come off as the most butt hurt duo online.
Should have picked up the phone and called PT before recording a podcast..
OY! C’mon Jesse , you and Chris are great together and I never miss a cast or any of Mr Torques as well. The man knows of what he speaks and I took it as a bit of jest. I’m Canadian so maybe I’ve missed something 🤷🏻♂️. You two need to iron this misunderstanding out mate🤝
Yeah you’ve got this wrong here, fellas. You’re being far far too sensitive for what was quite obviously PT taking the mick. You could’ve surely clarified this with him privately before laying in to him here.
After seeing this frame, now I want a new giant propel
As far as this PT thing goes - One thing I'll say is that I like listening to / watching you guys because of your healthy level of cynicism regarding cycling products and the industry in general. I haven't watched any cycling UA-camrs who I would say are less 'shill' or more honest than you two. I did watch Peak Torque's video before seeing this one, and it certainly never made me question your integrity, or that of the people around you. Keep up the good work.
I found your show about 6 months ago and I’ve continued watching weekly because I find that you guys have a good chemistry and I enjoy your conversations about cycling. In no way would I consider either of you “Bike Reviewers”. I value your opinions but you guys aren’t a bike review channel and you clearly aren’t trying to be. Just two guys talking about bike stuff and I like it. You guys have something good.
When I’m buying a cycling product or a bike, I draw information from many sources and make my decision based on the general consensus of the quality and value of said product. I would never base my decision solely on a single person’s opinion. Honestly, I’m more interested in opinions from actual customers than any UA-cam channel…except maybe Hambini..lol.
Lots of people in the comments here are coming down pretty hard on you guys for your reaction. I haven’t seen PT’s video but if you guys felt like your integrity was being besmirched, you have the right to feel that way and respond in kind.
Keep doing what you’re doing guys, you’re doing a good job 👍🏻
Dunno if you're just making more of the Peak Torque comment to create some beef and get more views, but he didn't seem to he calling you a liar in his video. It was more like he was saying that because Jesse had a professional mechanic build his bike, he won't have picked up on the issues/snags that PT encountered. That was my take anyway. 🤷♂️
why on gods green earth would one want to go off to purchase a BB shell that can deform because you have a deformed BB with a passed quality control check on it. There should be a 0 tollerance for this when purchasing a frame, which to be honest, is not a small amount of money. This is not small change I would have laying around my house. Defending it is insanity.
Huge congrats on the master win Chris! And cracking finishing line shot too :)
Yavelo Arow is indeed incomplete. Arow is missing an 'r'. Robin Hood disapproves🏹
wow bro how much IQ did it that for that joke!
😂
Also another point worth mentioning and I stand to be corrected but as far as I'm aware PT paid for his frame and Jesse and GC performance was sent free frames. It's not too much of a stretch to imagine they sent you and GC performance cherry-picked frames (unbeknownst to you), hence why you guys had much fewer issues.
PT calling you out seemed more like banter than anything really serious. And it seems like companies are just sending PT the products that really didn't pass QC. He's been frustrated about this himself but I guess he's also riding with it. Nonetheless keep the show going it's been fun lol
Received my size 580 Arow 1 month ago (QX580F0103). The mechanic who built my bike had a lot of praise of the frame quality, and didn't have any of these QC issues. Bike has been great so far after 1,000 miles.
If we READ Tavelo’s response on here, they mentioned they’ve addressed some of PT concerns before that - or your production frame wouldn’t have been problem free weeks ago.
@@justinkase8716 yea, and good on them for taking feedback and sorting qc issues. just providing my anecdotal experience w/ the frameset.
All drama aside the fact that all three frames had issues at this price point is piss poor. The selling point of a Chinese frame for me has to be manufacturing perfection. The ‘I just used a different bb’ defence doesn’t wash.
At that money you could buy second hand western branded frame, which may still have issues but a least says Pinarello on the down tube.
I think you guys are getting too bent out of shape about the Peak Torque comment. I watched that video and took his reference to Jesse as a bit of fun ribbing. I think you guys are a bit thin skinned and OTT in taking it so personally and spending so much time defending yourself.