PSA for Fantasy writers: your story doesn't _need_ a revolution. Your story doesn't _need_ a love triangle. The Hunger Games came out over a decade ago, you can drop the outline already
And hunger games didnt even have really a love triangle, she was probably forced to include one, why its never really one. And if you do include them, do reserch revolutions at least somewhat to at least get interesting ideas.
If they MUST include it, I'd like to see a love triangle where character A is in love with character B, B in love with C, and C in love with A And they chase and pine after each other until they either move on or start getting so close that they all fall for one another and end up in a polycule lol Most of the time, all these YA "love triangles" are actually love corners where the female protagonist is pushed into by toxic men (thinking of Twilight) OR the author makes it abundantly clear from page 1 who the end choice is going to be, so it's obvious that the love triangle is just there for the drama (also thinking of Twilight lol but pretty much every single YA I've ever read; the author has a clear favourite and it's painfully obvious).
@@nenegrey2282 Yes, a love triangle is where all three points are included. That’s actual drama cause there is no clear couple winning whereas in the “love corner”, one character is default, and it’s a (very biased) “toss up” between the other two.
omg same, like i'm writing a very classic fantasy story that will eventually have some romance, but isn't centred around it, and it feels like all other YA fantasy is just... this
YES. I’m not a writer but this is the main problem I have with YA of any focus (dystopian, fantasy, post apocalyptic, etc) and why I stopped reading it altogether. It’s nothing but: MMC can’t keep it in his pants and is constantly brooding and “tortured” and can’t take a damn joke and takes himself waaayyyyy too seriously. And he falls in love with a random girl he knows nothing about and who isn’t interesting in the least because she’s supposed to be his fated mate and he’s horny/lonely” YAWN. and FMC is dying to be dicked down 24/7 (highly unrealistic) and has no personality beyond “not being like other girls” but all of a sudden once she meets *insert unique/“sexy”/mouthful of a name with a weird pronunciation here* suddenly her life has meaning and she becomes more interesting” YAWN. EEEWWW. it’s just so cringe and gross. It’s 2024 and dammit this should not still be happening.
This right here. I need to do so much research nowadays just to even buy a book in the adult fantasy section without a "spicy" love triangle, lazy worldbuilding or the political understanding of a 4 year old smh
As someone who works in publishing. Write the book. I promise you it’s not as bad as you think and IF it is…it’s better than most books being bought rn.
This isn’t every YA book, but a lot of them I feel like are too afraid to “kill their darlings.” The stakes feel so much lower if you don’t feel like major characters are in danger. There’s also nothing I despise more than when an author will lead the audience to believe that they have mustered up the courage to actually kill one of their darlings, only to have them be miraculously brought back to life ten pages later.
@@randompromises1038 It’s been a while since I’ve read those, and I don’t remember who actually died. I wanted Rowan to die. Partially because I don’t particularly like him, and partially because there could have been some interesting subtext about choosing to give up immortality there.
I agree, I remember reading this one sci-fi YA book that had seemingly 'killed' off the main male love interest and it was such a fitting end to the series I was so happy, aaaand then he miraculously survived blowing up in space and falling to the planet below. Have never loathed a series more than after that, especially because it would've been more cohesive if the darling actually STAYED dead
The problem with being an 'aura seer' is that the vast majority of human beings can already read people's emotions no problem. Like, basic empathy and common sense isn't a magical power. You don't even need empathy to learn how to read emotions. So what's special or interesting about it?
The Deanna Troi problem: either you can only read what everyone else can already read (“I have a feeling he’s lying but I’m not sure why”) or when it’s plot convenient you can just read their whole mind (“he’s planning to kill the king with poison tomorrow morning!”) or the author needs to use heavy-handed manipulation to keep you away from things you can’t know yet because the plot wouldn’t happen if you knew
I immediately thought how much that would be useful to me and other ASD people, and imagine if THAT was the plot of the story. That at least would be interesting
Not to the point the magical readers should be able to. People are actually rubbish at being correct at seeing other's emotions, that's why the whole 'read body language' is pseudoscience. So an aura seer could be somebody who actually can do what the body language experts claim they can do. What is the problem is the second half of your comment - authors not knowing how to handle it.
@@emmanarotzky6565 Deanna Troi is a good example. The author could've done a Charmed thing and made it so she would have been overwhelmed by the emotions and took them on herself. Hell, then you have a whole bit where she'd be learning how to control or handle having other people's emotions.
I'm a freelance editor. I have worked with some AMAZING authors. I have also worked with authors who never wrote anything before they had too much time during the pandemic. I saw a post online yesterday from someone who is a self-published author and they said they weren't even a reader before lockdown, then they...got bored of what they were reading and decided to write their own stuff? Good writing takes YEARS of practice, of consuming good stories and learning how to put words together in a pleasant way. I just did a trial edit yesterday for someone who so clearly wanted to write a Hunger Games rip off and.........ugh. I know no one wants to hear "You're not ready for publishing yet," but it isn't bullying, it's because you need to practice. That first idea you have doesn't need to be a 100,000 word manuscript.
That's what fanfiction is for but some people are not into any fandoms or feel passionate enough to get into it. Fanfics create a non commercial chill space where you can dump your writing and expectations are proportionate. It can be cheesey, overdone, not well written or maybe immature but the community is low stakes and everyone acknowledges that writing bad things paves the way to write good things. Unfortunately there isn't a space equal to fanfic for original authors who just want to write for fun. Wattpad is a thing yes but it's associated more with teenagers and even then it pushes to monetization
Im a YA/NA fantasy writer and this is EXACTLY why i had to leave the writing industry, until recently. I call these paint-by-numbers, popcorn/candy reads because they're all filler and no substance lmao
SAME! I hope to write something and get published. Readers are hungry for something meaningful, and hopefully aspiring authors will continue to recognize this and strive to fix it.
though to be fair, i feel like those books get published BECAUSE they are mediocre. it seems like the demand for such books have risen, thanks to tiktok, and so the authors are okay with settling for mediocrity and agents actually looking for mediocrity. on the other hand, writing decent plot and romance and not just some trendy trope infested garbage is not likely to generate the "buzz" around it.
i feel like many authors are primarly romance/erotica writers, but since "romantasy" is what sells they plop their couple into a barely-sketched fantasy world and call it a day
I think the mediocrity comes from ya authors writing concepts they read about in other ya books (whether those books are mediocre or not) and not fully understanding (or maybe even agreeing with the conclusion those other authors came to) those concepts like racism, colonialism, sexism, etc. and so they have nothing deeper to write about or think about. I think YA authors forget that even a cute fantasy romance requires critical thinking
My story Encryption Straffe was first drafted as a kinda generic YA and then I shifted the POV to different people in the world who can explain how the world is shaped and how the hero-equivalent affected their lives. At east it's more fun to write.
I've realized over the years that I'd rather deal with clunky or awkward prose if the actual story, character writing, and plot beats are interesting and well done, but the opposite just makes me feel like I've been tricked and wasted my time.
TW: self-harm I can see self-harm being used as a coping mechanism, HOWEVER, B I G caveat. Self-harm isn’t JUST cutting. Pretty much any negative coping mechanism that someone uses as a form of punishment, or simply just because it makes them feel better is self-harm. Scratching yourself, degrading yourself, any form of pain; hell, I consider even starving yourself as a form of self-harm. If a person’s only portrayal of self-harm is cutting, then I have to wonder at the reasoning behind it
And some nuance I never see given is not all self-injurious behavior is self harm either. I have BFRB-related compulsions that often end up causing me pain or physical harm, but I’m not doing it to intentionally hurt myself, it’s a side effect of what I feel I “need” to do. But also things like certain tics or stims might hurt someone, but aren’t done with the intent to hurt themselves. Which is very different from me going out of my way to intentionally trigger myself with content online, which is definitely self harm but it’s emotional self harm, not physical.
TW: my own experiences with SH Excellent points you both! I think a lot of people use “cutting” because it’s the most sensationalized coping mechanism, unfortunately. It’s the most likely to turn heads; and when a character does it everyone kind of knows instinctively what’s going on, so the author doesn’t have to do research into the how, or the why. I used to scratch myself if I got angry, because it felt like there was no other way for me to express it. And I’d cycle between forgoing long sleeves (because I wanted people to notice) and hiding them with long sleeves. That kind of nuance can so easily be missed if an author doesn’t take the time to do research and asking about other people’s experiences. I find it helpful to describe those experiences as something akin to an addiction, because even after I’d long stopped, I still feel the urge to if I get angry enough.
I used to SH via cutting when I was younger, but as I got older I started taking on an arguably worse form of it by going online to read comments made by awful people and internalizing what they would say.
Theses days it feels like every fantasy book I read prioritizes the romance over everything else. Mostly applies to adult fantasy but it just gives 14 yo writing a werewolf book on Wattpad during math class. No planning or storyboarding just "hmm how do I make my 19 year old sheltered female lead meet her enemy that's not really her enemy"
I feel like the issue here is that the ppl writing the YA fantasy are only focused on romance, specifically certain tropes of romance (like bad boy x good girl dynamic) and they skimp out on world building since the type of readers invested in these types books only read it because of that romance trope dynamic. They don’t care about the quality of the writing so long as their favorite ship dynamic or kink is played out
Also, as a fanfic writer, I notice that a lot of newer authors were former fanfic writers as well. The appeal to writing fanfiction is being able to just write a story without having to worry about world building as the readers already know the original media material. Tho when these former fanfic writers become authors, they dont bother to properly world build since world building isnt necessary for writing fanfiction to inform new readers. I can see thats why a lot of greek retellings in romance genres can be confusing for those who aren’t familiar with greek mythology or be inaccurate, since the authors are approaching the mindset of not needing to world build and assume bcuz greek mythology is popular (tho not every detail of it), they dont have to world build, just write the romance. Even then the romance just follows the stereotypical archetypes u see a like reylo, edward x bella, which readers only care about reading that dynamic in a book, not the whole thing
It _also_ explains the recycling/life cycle of the Trope of the Day. Even in fandoms, writers chase trends, because whatever 'top dogs' are around set the stage for what's popular. Thus, the only way to get any traction yourself is to do the exact same thing. This can go on for years and years; everyone and their dog writing That One Popular Fic's premise. The mindset's just in the 'mainstream' now, with financial incentives and Hollywood deals dangled in front of the whole industry's noses.
Most of these tropes are like fast fashion in book form, if that makes sense. Like, the writers or publishers, whoever, are so worried about staying on top they just crank out crap, with no real thought to actual substance.
Also, the remark about mixing high notes and low notes reminded me of Disney's Mulan (animated). Part of why the destroyed village hits the audience so hard is because right up to the reveal of said village, there's the bouncy, funny song "A Girl Worth Fighting For". Fun, light, everybody's friendly... and the smoking wreckage, doll in the snow, and the general's helmet. Ouch.
I feel like I'm too young to pull the "back in my day we had GOOD YA fantasy", line but honestly, it's true. Tamora Pierce. Garth Nix's Old Kingdom trilogy. Phillip Pullman. Jonathan Stroud. Why does no one talk about these anymore? It feels like the internet has forgotten about all of the actually good, if a bit older, YA fantasy and it is a travesty. Edit: Not to mention the stellar children's fantasy that exists, namely the Chronicles of Prydain by Lloyd Alexander and The Dark is Rising sequence by Susan Cooper. Just had to shout those out as well!
The Circle of Magic quartet, Old Kingdom Trilogy, and Bartimaeus trilogy are some of my favourite books! The former in particular is very dear to me. I love the found family aspect, and how close the four main characters feel, and the unusual magic system. I also have some of the Edge Chronicles books, and I'd like to read all of them some day, and Terry Pratchett's Tiffany Aching books are among my favourite books ever. Diana Wynne Jones has some fantastic books as well--the Howl trilogy, the Dark Lord of Derkholm, the Merlin Conspiracy, the Dalemark quartet, Dogsbody, Fire and Hemlock, Eight Days of Luke, Aunt Maria, The Homeward Bounders, the Chrestomanci series, and more, all amazing books. I'm still often confused by what qualifies as a divide between 'kids' books' and 'YA', since YA can mean so many different things now and encompasses a huge range of different kinds of books. There are some good new series out there, though--the Nevermoor series, the Kyoshi novels, the Amari series, and Aiden Thomas is shaping up to be a very popular author. I've never read His Dark Materials, though I know there's been a whole lot of controversy over the ending and the prequel series being of debatable quality.
@@kurathchibicrystalkitty5146 I thought the new Pullman books were stellar! And I loved the original trilogy, although I think I'm overdue for a re-read.
@@hollym7878 I'd vaguely heard that the new trilogy was getting a lot of mixed reviews, but that was years ago, so maybe opinions have changed over time. I only read the first one, and didn't like it, though maybe not reading the original trilogy beforehand might've been a factor? [I do know all the plot twists and spoilers already.] I do really like the idea of daemons, at least.
The thing that confuses me about the Aura seer thing is, what happened that the emperor needed a new Auraseer in the first place? Like she only killed everyone at the convent, if the Aura seer needs to stay at the palace, then wouldn't he still have one? Do this women stay at the convent all their lives until the Emperor needs a new one? I'm confused about this particular plot
A character who constantly cries due to ptsd after accidentally vomiting genocide could be really interesting. Not that I think that’s what they did. Get a feeling they just fridged all the other empaths.
This is why I want to create a story wherein someone deals with horrific trauma or has a disability and IT AFFECTS THEIR LIFE. A mage with ADHD who slacks on his school and therefore struggles due to it. Someone who was abused in their childhood who now has DID, and it affects their life and the way they deal with magic. Someone who's self harming despite being a super powerful knight. Just humanity and regular issues I suffer with in these fantasy people.
I remembered reading city of bones cause people recommended Cassie EVERYWHERE. Well, I have to say, I was so traumatized with that book and YA Romantasy that I have not taken a single book from Cassie since then
I hated the City of Bones series. Her "Infernal Devices" series I did actually enjoy--perhaps the writing matured a bit? Idk. It didn't feel AS cringey, but it still had the flavor. Perhaps it was just more tolerable, idk. But yeah, her first series is not good.
The infernal devices is her one book series where i was obsessed and it was genuinely good, the others are either bad or have questionable narrative points
@@the_goddess_1859 the only thing I remember about that book is me yelling "this dumb chic is an insult to teenager" cause in my head, the main girl is Cassie's representation of how teenager behave :)))
As a lover of fantasy genre in books, I admit that there was a moment that I almost fell out of love with fantasy because of the advent of "YA Fantasy" and their focus solely on romance rather than intricate worldbuilding. This is why I am select on which fantasy titles I read and hopefully enjoy. I enjoyed the Grishaverse books of Leigh Bardugo and the Shades of Magic series by V.E. Schwab, as they are, I believe, among the list of remaining fantasy series that still has credibility in the fantasy genre. Sad to see that my favorite genre has become too washed with mediocre writing, considering how fantasy is not only an escape from the uncertainty of real life but a stimulant for my stressed, neurodivergent brain.
Tolkien really helped outline what fantasy COULD be, especially high fantasy, and it feels like that's fading away. Which makes me sad. I LOVE huge world building, I LOVE it when authors attempt their own language building, I love magic systems, I love lore and history, like create a world for me with awesome characters. Make the romance a part of it, not the focus. And it's never a good, healthy romance, either. It feels like every male interest is a toxic cesspool. Like give me better options at least. I used to love the "bad boy to lover" trope, and now I see it as a red flag.
So true. Fantasy is my favorite genre, but I find myself reading less and less of it specifically because the chaff is so omnipresent now it's hard to find any wheat. I detest these mediocre paint-by-numbers "romantasies" with a passion for this.
@@the_goddess_1859 *...Epithet Erased: Prison of Plastic* is pretty darn similar to what you would want... please let me talk about my favorite book i've had a hyperfixation on for 7 months now that no one cares about, PLEASE, I NEED TO TALK ABOUT THIS BOOK I LOVE IT SO MUCH-
I read Belladonna recently and I was just so disappointed. Got lured in by a gorgeous cover and an interesting premise and then the actual contents was confused, muddy, generally unclear as to where they actually were. :/ I keep trying to give the book away
I think a large part of these writers (not just YA/NA) is I get the impression they think writing is easy. Easy in a sense they don't have to plan things out, edit, etc. They think planting seeds of what is popular (i.e. forbidden love) would be enough. I'm a folklorist too and I noticed this with certain retellings, including one who admitted she never read a well-known mythic epic that she 'RETOLD' (still mindblown). I received an ARC and I FELT IT right away. It was actually well-written but it felt lacking in that regard.
I've been mulling over a plot I've been excited about since high school. I'm nearing thirty now and still am not pleased with some of the plot threads. I COULD NOT IMAGINE just cranking that bad boy out in its original form.
Go for it! I would love to read it. It shows to me that you CARE! (In fairness, sure these writers may care, but I still feel they think it's super easy, and their writing suffers.) @@the_goddess_1859
I picked up "The Girl of Fire and Thorns" on a whim from the bargain bin the other day and it was so mid that I can't stop thinking about it. The cover shows a blond white woman when the mc is fantasy Latina, and it's downhill from there, but I have serious brainrot about it for some reason.
Yes! It's a second world fantasy where THEE Christian God moved people to a new world and every hundred years there is a chosen one with a blue gem in their bellybutton. It also has poor fat representation, colorism, lots of weird religious stuff, underage marriage...a mess.
@@ReadswithRachel from Wikipedia “The Princess of Orovalle, Lucero-Elisa de Riqueza, was born as the chosen one, selected by God to fulfill a prophecy shown by a blue gem in her navel called the Godstone. Lucero-Elisa lacks confidence in herself, and often eats out of unhappiness; she is described as "fat" in the novel.” On second thought, this one isn’t even mediocre, it’s just bad
Oh my god I thought nobody else would say this, these books are just painting by the numbers, is like Sarah J. Maas made a manual and everyone else is just following adding absolute no flavor to it.
Some YA Fantasy that I’ve loved lately: Song of Silver, Flame Like Night by Amelie Wen Zhao, A Study in Drowning by Ava Reid, and Girls of Paper and Fire by Natasha Ngan I hate that some people think that just because a book is for a young audience, the quality doesn’t matter! It matters so so much!
I know this particular book is older, but I feel like authors really should stop with writing generic fantasy imperial Russia at this point. It never does it justice when it comes to... you know... actual real life imperialism and colonialism in this time
Not to say most of the times it's so painfully obvious they write about it from a western perspective. I am sorry but the cold war brainrot the western has about what Russia (and eastern europe at large) was and still is makes me churn everytime a sliver of a plot there gets introduced. It's always written with the POV of white people as if Russia hadn't colonized almost all central Asia. You never see a turkic/central asian character in these novels. Also it almost reeks of exoticism, don't ask me why. They see cold climate, poor potato eaters and the vague plot of Anastasia and they jump on it immediatly
Unfortunately, most novels are mediocre. I think it feels more prevalent today because most of the mediocre books of the past have been forgotten. Time is a sieve, filtering out the bad, the mediocre, and even the good, leaving only the truly exceptional and skewing our view of the quality of past art. Edgar Wallace, for example, wrote a lot of good books (and a surprisingly few mediocre ones, given he wrote more than 200 works (novels, plays, and short story collections) in 28 years), was phenomenally popular, and 90 years after his death virtually none of his works are remembered.
The best-seller lists of the late 60s being dominated by the smut of Harold Robbins, Jacqueline Susann, and the like, led a group of journalists to write the intentionally poorly-written “Naked Came the Stranger”, because they thought any schlock could become a best-seller if there was enough sex. Sure enough, it sold 20,000 copies before the authors came clear.
I think also more books are being published in thr past + social media marketing has exposed a lot of "mediocre" books to the public than before. It also doesnhelp that romance is what sells the most and if u are not interested in it, its more obvious to see how lacking a book is when u remove the romance plots
I'm always so worried that my writing is mediocore. Because I'm confident enough in my work to say that it isn't bad but how can I be sure it isn't mediocore?
Use the eyes of others! Betareaders, editors, people with fresh eyes and different perspectives. Also, read lots yourself. I can tell where I should improve by reading other stories that are very well written. It shows me the contrast between that standard and my own work.
Idk if I’m alone in this or not (probably not,) but the editing process is my favourite part of the writing process. Like the whole world and story is laid out for you and you can just play with it until “good” becomes “fantastic.” The hardest part is just getting my ideas to paper in the first place lol!
Nah, you're right! I actually enjoy editing since it means reviewing back what you wrote and enjoying your geniuses (or stupidity). Also, it helps me go "Aha!" when I realizes what I can fix or what I missed. The problem has always been writing it down in the first place! 😭
Thank you! All YA readers deserve better, but especially the actual young people reading these. I worry these books will put them off reading more in the future or turn them off the fantasy genre when there are better books or there if they keep going.
And its not that fantasy books wer always good, but damn, they should at least try to have a plot and worldbuilding and at least try work that out. It doesnt work always out, but erotica without trying that shoulsnt be sold as fantasy but erotica. And erotica has a market. A big market,
The other major ick I'm seeing is young female readers are beginning to idolize the objectively awful male lead characters in these books. They're like...harassing other men who "give the vibes", I've straight up seen "If he isn't this obsessed and crazy about me, I don't want him" and I'm like girl...HE WILL KILL YOU, WHAT DO YOU MEAN???
This is something interesting I've noticed with a lot of recent YA books and series. They don't feel written for the current YA audience. They feel written for 25+ year olds who want to keep only reading what they consider "YA quality." Which is sad because older YA fantasy was really good. There's also the observation that YA feels more like the romance genre leaving actual romance to only be erotica. Which is just weird imo, but that's a different discussion.
I stopped reading books for fun for a very long time. At a certain point every time I picked up a new book it felt like I was just reading a worse version of a thing I'd already read before. All it took was a couple weeks in a row of deciding "eh I don't really feel like going to the bookstore/library" and I was out of the habit. I don't think the publishing industry can push out only bangers even if it wants to but I think there's an attitude that it doesn't matter if you put out mediocre content for YA and Kids and I think that backfires.
The other day i decided to read a proper book after a while, and half way there i thought: I've read better fanfics. While writing fanfics is a proper art (considering i write them myself), if you're a published author, I'd expect your book to feel better than a smut fic a fan wrote because they love a ship so much.
Different expectations. Since fanfics are a non commercialized activity that is also a refuge for marginalized people there is a different approach. Fanfic readers acknowledge the fact that bad things need to get written to hone your craft and putting your work out there is a big scary leap. With tradpub that grace falls off because readers rightfully expect quality control and some competency since money is involved. Considering that the industry is gatekeepey, crystalized in its biases and hails white peoole above all readers get rightfully pissed at undeserving notoriety and praise
I've been looking around my local library's catalog for fiction books with transmasc rep. And I've noticed that there's significantly more transgender fiction in the YA section than in the adult fiction section. Specifically, there are a lot of results for YA Fantasy. Don't get me wrong I love that YA authors are creating more rep for us! But I was wondering, is this a regular trend everywhere? And if so, why are there more YA authors writing transgender rep than authors writing for adults? (btw Rachel I have been watching your channel for almost my entire undergrad career and I want to thank you for making such entertaining and educational videos!!)
I think that it’s because this generation of authors is the first to get the opportunity to write their stories in this amount, and they’re writing the rep they always wanted to see that the generation after them needs. But that generation writing it was the generation who was reading YA not even that long ago. Many of them are only 20-30 and have been working on those stories a long time. I think many of them will naturally start moving to writing more books for adults and the generation reading their YA stuff will then take over writing the YA stuff
Oh man Kingdom of the Wicked also genuinely made me angry. It was hard to quantify why, but I think it had to do with all the little elements that we were just told were a thing, but never shown. Especially the brotagonist, which sin was he??? Wrath? I think he was Wrath. And the main girl, whatever her name was, kept insisting how evil he was, how many terrible things he'd done as to indicate she shouldn't trust him. But the author never told us anything specific Wrath had done on the past. The author also never showed Wrath doing anything terrible in the present of the novel, the one moment that was considered dubious, magic was involved iirc a random dude having his body controlled, wasn't even Wrath's doing, it was the main chick. And on top of all that, the main chick basically trusted Wrath instantly. It was just a whole bunch of running around for no fucking reason.
exactly why i like middle grade fantasy more! the plots usually don't revolve around romance and usually focus on friendships or familial bonds, and the fantasy worlds and magic systems tend to be more original and not just built around a trope.
hmmm the thing is that a book can have a lot of effort in it but is not marketed well, or doesn't have mass appeal. Even if it might be great technically.
@@MariaRodriguez-dx6sm That's exactly the issue, naive TSTL but "special" girl paired with a generic dark, tall and brooding bad boy (who's also a royal or an immortal fae / vampire), or maybe 2 of them where one is the prince and the other the leader of the rebellion, or one is a childhood friend and the other is a villain, or witch paired with a witch hunter, or poor girl from a colonized nation paired with the son of the colonizing emperor, has a big chance to go viral on tiktok, while anything that doesn't rely on cheesy romance tropes like love triangle or enemies-to-lovers will get little buzz, and it's especially bad if the book is queer or with Black characters (or generally POC), then it's getting even less buzz.
My mediocre y/a series (if it counts as that) would be the Adventures of Jacky Faber series. It's a like 13 book historical fiction series about an obnoxiously impulsive girl who pretend to be a boy to join the British Navy, and the entire series is just "Jacky makes 3-5 bad impulse decisions and had to deal with the consequences of her own actions until it eventually resolves itself." But every book ends basically where it begins narratively, and every book she falls for a new man, (general a grown-ass adult who should not be talking to her, she's like 14) only for her to rebuff them because she's still hung up on the guy she decided is her soul mate when she was 10. Also she's almost sexually assaulted in every book. It was infuriating. I'd started book five before I was like "I actually hate this" and DNF'd.
I read them as a kid too! I loved this first book as a child but stopped reading around book 5. It felt like the plot was being recycled and Jackie kept making the same mistakes and regressing on any character growth.
@@mittag983 Yeah, like the guy writing it forgot his protagonist was a young teen girl for most of his work and was writing as if she was a mid-twenties woman.
Thank you so much for bringing up Raybearer. It is such a wonderful and heartbreakingly beautiful book. I adore all of the characters (Ekundayo made me feel seen) and am currently enjoying the sequel, Redemptor.
Oh my gosh, as you started describing the plot, I realized I’d tried reading this before but stopped pretty much after the first page because of how it handled self harm. I’m glad I didn’t finish it
It's kind of dissapointing that a plot like "Main character struggles to make sense of herself due to being overwhelmed by the emotions of others" was developed so poorly, because that's perfect psychological horror and unreliable narrator material.
I've noticed there's been this *overflow* in mediocre books for a while now and it kind of worries me. It's showing that the publishing industry (big surprise 😮💨) is trying to sell shlock and claim its decent. The issue is, that its causing genuinely good stories to fall through the cracks. We're being told a story is Jaws and we're getting Sharknado.
I feel it's excusable for your first few books, honestly. The issue is mediocrity is becoming celebrated. People are insisting all that is made should be candy, and not hearty, filling meals. And the other issue is a lot of us are damn tired of candy and want some damn good pot roast
I’m so happy to hear this 😭🥹 I’ve been legitimately considering getting an art tablet and learning to do art just for fun and sometimes I watch the skillshare classes on introductions to art and I’m just like… getting the itch to try it out.
Why? Because YA Lit is the Mean Girls of publishing. You have to be in the clique to get published. If you don’t agree with everything the clique says then you’re out.
As an aspiring YA author listening to you explain and downfalls of the books and the ways the author could have created more suspense really brought more insight to my own work! Thanks for this video!
Thank you for doing these videos where you use a mediocre/terrible book as an example on what writers shouldn't do and take the time to point out to us not yet published writers where you believed they went wrong and giving not only examples of books that did the same theme better, but also sharing your thoughts and ideas on what would have made the mediocre or terrible books better. I really appreciate you spending the time to take Skillshare courses in order to build more knowledge and theory to be able to make videos like this. 💜This is one of the many reasons I love your channel. 💜 I am in the middle of writing an Epic Fantasy series, and when I look at what fantasy books are popular at the moment, all I see are these types of YA Romantasy books, or the Adult versions of the same (usually Dark Romantasy), but this is not where my books fit at all, which makes me unsure about whether they would do well. (Although I'm based in NZ so will probably have to go the self-published route which makes things harder as well). My influences are more old-school like Robert Jorden, Anne McCaffrey, Raymond E Feist, Tamora Pierce. Brandon Sanderson, and Terry Brooks, as I have pretty much read all of these authors books, and I am currently working my way through Robin Hobb.
@@ReadswithRachel Thank you! Can I ask which Robin Hobb books you like? I am currently reading through the Farseer (Assassin) Trilogy and it took me a while to get into it, and its a little annoying how much the main character fails. But the writing is pretty good.
I had the privilege of having Benjamin Percy come to my college English class, and the lessons he taught about storytelling are ones I still remember over 10 years later. He's excellent, glad they have him on SkillShare!
To this day I find it difficult to put into words how upset I was at Red Queen’s dogged devotion to mediocrity. You couldn’t avoid its aggressive promotion for even a second, and for what?
My favourite author ever is Kate Elliott and most of her books are adult SFF but she did one foray into YA Fantasy with the Court of Fives trilogy and I *ate* that trilogy up. Elliott is already generally prolific with her worldbuilding in exactly the way I love and her characterization is top-notch, so I love most of her series. What made Court of Fives a stand-out YA Fantasy for me though is specifically the many contradicting needs and desires which main character Jes finds herself in the middle of. The setting is inspired by the Roman rule of Egypt when Roman classes were above the Egyptian classes, and she is one of the daughters of a Roman-analogue up-and-coming soldier and an Egyptian-analogue civilian woman, so she is already straddling two worlds without being able to fully enter either of it. She is an athlete in a special field that is beloved by the country, but there are reasons why she has to hide it in her family life which adds strain to her daily life. And later, the political pickle she finds herself in basically forces her to choose between ALL these avenues and more. Seeing her juggle all of it against her own cares and desires, all the while discovering what she *doesn't* know about the world and having her limited perspective expand was a joy throughout the series. In my opinion, it's one of those stories where plots, character arcs and settings all have their own things going on and they all reflect each other in one way or another (like the same light reflecting off all the different angles of a jewel, if I have to get ~cringe~ poetic here). All the while, if I were to /simplify/ the plot hooks and beats and list them in order, anyone who read it in passing would think it was a "regular" YA Fantasy (young girl, unlikely love interest in power, a family to protect, a huge injustice that needs to be overcome, whispers of revolutions, etc). UGH I RECOMMEND IT TO EVERYONE THOUGH because even when you can see where things might be going due to genre trends, I can assure you that things don't stay where you think they're going to stay. (Also the unlikely love interest in power in this case is a character I want to wrap in blankets and bows, he is so precious.)
A series that I will ALWAYS recommend is Skulduggery Pleasant. It's initially children's, but becomes YA later on by virtue of heavy themes and violence. No matter how dark it gets, there's always some wit and comedy there to balance it out. Also there's a funny skeleton who wears a suit, and there's not nearly enough books with those.
I was obsessed with the Infernal Devices trilogy when I was much younger. I loved it to bits, and then it gradually faded into a guilty pleasure sort of feeling, and then couldn't even think about it without cringing. That was my only venture into 'typical YA territory'. Unless Seraphina and Shadow Scale [by Rachel Hartman] count?
@@Eosinophyllis I wished Seraphina could've had the princess as a love interest. I felt like they had a lot more chemistry together. Or maybe I just thought the irony was too good to pass up, the idea of a half-dragon girl falling in love with a princess...
You had me at the Sleep Token comment. Because that was a straight up fact. Enjoying that I found you a few videos back. Getting back into focusing on my reading hobby this year and looking for reviewers who are into similar books as me.
I love your constant use of inclusive language, even word choices that are relatively new to the public. The one that stood out to me the most was saying “d*ed by su**ide” (which is a cause of death) instead of “committed su**ide” (which implies an immoral choice). Your word choice matters and is appreciated ❤️
You’ve made some really good points here. I’ve temporarily stepped away from YA as I felt I was giving consistently negative reviews. Which I initially thought was maybe indicative of “aging out”of the genre. But then I noticed that manyyyyy booktubers were complaining about a dip in quality so maybe it was that too. 100% agree about Raybearer!! One of my all time favorite YA books. I just so wish that Redemptor had been of the same caliber 😫
when benjamin percy was a visiting teacher at my college, i was lucky enough to take a writing workshop class with him, and even 10+ years later i still think of that class fondly and i grew so much as a writer during that semester. it's exciting to hear that he's got skillshare videos up, since he's a brilliant teacher!
As someone who is (trying to be) a writer … I wish I had your ability to step back from a story and see what would raise the stakes and made it not mediocre. I know you’ve been taking lots of online courses to get there but dang … I wish I could see these kinds of things in my own work 😂. It would simplify matters.
I originally set out to write ya fantasy, but my tastes have matured a lot. What really made me fall out of love with ya as a category is the abysmal lack of world building, three dimensional characters and meaningful relationships. YA rarely utilizes its potential, instead tries to chase after as many popular tropes it can have. I slowly stopped reading ya books because it became the equivalent of eating unflavored jello. It’s bland, it’s tasteless, it doesn’t try to be something different. I know there’s better authors in this category but as of now, ya fantasy is really the bottom of the barrel (to me). As an aspiring writer, your videos are really helpful to me. I don’t think I’ll be setting out to write in YA fantasy because it doesn’t inspire me, but it’s good to hear what I should avoid. I have a question though. If a book features an immortal protagonist (because all my protagonists are non human, immortal beings) would it belong in New Adult or Adult or Young Adult section? That’s one thing I can’t understand.
Well, how can someone tell, if you didn't say anything about it. 😂😂😂😂 They are immortal, okay. Means it is fantasy I guess. That's it. There's nothing more you can get out of it. I don't understand the question. If you don't want to write YA of course it can't be Young adult. 😂😂 Teenies. New adult is about young adults 18-25 and adults are adults. 😂 It depends on how old the characters are and where the main focus is. You could have easily search the differences on the interent though. This is really funny to me, because you literally speak about YA, that you don't like it etc. And than you ask about what young adult is. So you read YA but you literally don't know what YA is. 😂 Maybe you should first learn the genres and subgenres and what they require and what defines them before writing a book. If this is a spoiler, of how serious you take your research, I don't know how this book will be....
Just want to help a bit, your character's age isn't really matter compares to your audience target, mostly when it comes to immortal character. A character can be hundred years old vampire, but if the story centers around teenagers and is targeted towards teens, then it will be for teens. It def depends on your story, the target, and how the characters present themselves (did they present as adults or present as teens? Or even present as old people lol).
@salmaterserah5137 thank you! That’s something at least. My story probably isn’t targeted at teens, I think it’s gotta be new adult. Thanks for the help.
Honestly, I love writing fantasy, but my writing isn't good. I can acknowledge that. The world building isn't great and the cast of characters isn't very diverse because I'm in my anima bubble. That's why I'd never publish my work. Because guess what - you don't have to publish your writing. You can keep it to yourself. Especially if you're as sensitive about your writing as I am :D
I know some people hated it, but in high school, this was what was TRUE "fae" (Shakespearean faeries) for me WAY before Sarah J Maas used fae to be something uglier and more boring. It's called Iron King by Julie Kagawa. It has a talking cat and one of the best characters to grace fantasy in my humble opinion, Puck. All the YA tropes in the mid-2010s BUT her world building was just...gorgeous. Still have yet to see anyone match her. Mary Pearson's Vow of Thieves is also really well done.
omg I'm reading snow like ash rn and I'm marking every single thing that is egregious or makes no sense or honestly gets on my nerves and I have so many sticky notes
reposting this comment because i accidentally posted it as a reply before 😂 ive been on a kick rewatching your old videos when this popped up, perfect timing!
What also makes YA Fantasy feel so bland is because it’s so often the almost same base concepts, the same tropes, the same cliché romance, same supernatural beings, etc. Especially the last one is getting old, at least for me right now. So in my current project I take a deep dive into japanese mythology, because I think that’s underutilised outside of manga and anime (and my new obsession additionally to greek mythology). I can only remember reading one Fantasy trilogy based on japanese mythology, and when I searched for more, the results were mostly more textbook-like explanations of Japanese creatures and myths, which was disappointing. Especially cause I‘m already reading some of those for research 😂
Oh for sure. There’s tons of great YA fantasy books! I’m just talking about the subjective sub category of ya fantasy books I found to be mediocre. But most of my top favorite books are ya fantasy books. I mentioned Raybearer by Jordan Ifueko at the end but other favorites are Kingdom of Souls by Rena Barron, Furyborn by Claire Legrand, and An Ember in the Ashes by Sabaa Tahir. All five stars!
16:15 that would have been a better fit. Imagine the possibilities it could hold to have a more shocking reveal, that author showed their full hand way too soon. Imagine dreaming or seeing symbols in her life that remind her of the incident. A clanging of keys, the enveloping of snow, a burning candle falling over, anything!!
I was going to ask what YA fantasies you would recommend that accomplished the plot beats your were discussing. And you recommended Raybearer, which is probably my fave YA fantasy right now. I notice a lot of comments complained that the romance aspects took over in mediocre YA books, and the authors let the plot and flow suffer. In comparison, because Raybearer had a solid plot and solid worldbuilding, and the conflict between her and her love interest was related to the plot, the romance never got in the way and was interwoven well with the plot. If the Raybearer's love interest had been a platonic friend, the plot would have still flowed the same. I also expected Raybearer to have a love triangle, but it did not. So I also recommend that book, which is part of a duology. Plus, the couple's romance is cute, outside of the conflict.
i LOVE how you do your skillshare sponsorships! it always feels like such an integral part of the video because you often reference back to a course that helped you craft your review
I just hate the prevalence of love triangles, they aren't interesting, even when I was the correct age for YA it annoyed me so I moved on from it very quickly.
Are…are we all into Sleep Token? I feel like a lot of people I watch lately have been all on them and I’m like HELL YEAH BUT ALSO….but it all makes sense cause they truly do make me FEEL
This is how I feel about Fourth Wing (even though it's not YA). The characters talk like ever-day modern college students, the story and characters are generic and unremarkable and the long I read it the more bored I became, and even though it had a structure and the plot flowed well, it was just the food equivalent of an unsalted piece of cooked chicken. It's mostly popular the same way some people will watch a movie just because it has their favorite actor in it and because it's so easy and familiar. THe entire time my brain was itching for something to ponder, something to be excited to find out or anticipate, but everything was just so bland and I knew more or less from the start how a lot of stuff would play out before it even happened. It also has one of my biggest pet peeves of being sold as enemies-to-lovers and having a morally-gray or villain-type love interest when the only shades of gray on his person are the tattoos on his ethnically ambiguous tan and toned body. The only bad thing he does is tell Violet he's going to kill her, and the other character who threatened that, Jack, actually made any actual attempts. Romantasy girlies just want a character that feels like a villain without him actually doing anything morally questionable.
This sort of plot is a pet peeve of mine, so rant incoming. I wish there was more actual fantasy dystopia, where the world building is properly explored. It used to be 'too much world-building' was often the fantasy problem, but with the rise of romantasy, that's secondary to 'world-building took a back seat to shipping'. I also want to see a speculative fiction revolution where the rebels/revolutionaries aren't annoyed just because the current monarch is bad, but because they don't want to live in a hereditary autocracy - probably an imperialistic one, too- and the current monarch has just tipped a situation over the edge. A revolution that wants to overthrow the status quo because the problems were inherent in the system is a lot more realistic, and it's often economic catastrophe rather than only despotic behaviour that ferments revolution. This book is set in fantasy Imperial Russia, so maybe the author should have looked into why the last Tsar got deposed, but Stalin didn't. But that's a complex question with a very complex, multifaceted answer and this book is a mediocre vehicle for a love-triangle and not an attempt at social critique, or actually writing 'Russian Revolution... with magic' so of course nothing like that was thought about. Often in these stories the answer to the 'bad monarch' is to replace them with a 'good monarch' who is often a relative of the first, which makes it feel more like a coup than revolution. This is the 'Lion King' solution, or the 'Snow White' solution... In real life, the autocrats that take over after revolutions, regardless of what ideals they initially aspired to, usually end up as despots, and are rarely directly connected to whoever was overthrown. Also, Revolutions tend to have ideals beyond just 'get rid of the current leader'. Communism doesn't have to exist in her world, but some ideal amongst her revolutionaries for what a better world should look like ought to! I get the feeling that Prince Anton in this is going to end up the new leader in a sequel... Also, where are the fantasy democracies? Where are OTHER forms of fantasy power-structures? I feel like the whole genre is stuck in a mixture of fairy tales and Tolkien high fantasy, and a genre that by definition should allow for very broad imagination doesn't use that, in a way that science-fiction does more frequently. This is weird because other than swapping magic for technology, and alien worlds for mystical ones, it's the same core concepts of speculative fiction.
My answer is that I found the first grisha book so underwhelming back when it first came out that I quit reading the entire YA genre lmao. I don’t know if it was that particular book and love triangle or if it was simply the last straw on the camel’s back after reading a lot of much worse examples. ETA: I will say that these days my lack of reading YA is partly due to time - iirc I’ve put a few on the to read list if my mom specifically recommends them to me, and just failed to get around to them.
Ohhhh my godddd how you felt about Burning Glass is exactly how I felt about Powerless by Lauren Roberts. It’s blowing up on goodreads with so many 5 star ratings and I don’t get it. A deep dark frustration settled in my soul when I finished that book.
I think another huge problem with modern books is that many of them lack internal consistency. Characters motivations don’t match their actions or change from one scene to the next with no explanation. Characters described to be super powerful in one scene are overpowered in two seconds the next. A skill is supposed rlly difficult and takes years to learn but the protagonist masters it in a month at most. An object or worldbuilding device is said to be super useful or important in the beginning of the story and then never comes up again. A fantasy object supposedly has one specific use but then is used in a completely different way with no explanation…probably more examples but u get the idea
not really related to anything per se, but you really remind me of the family friend who babysat me as a kid, and who encouraged me to write my (admittedly terrible) stories while i stayed at her house, using her microsoft word. now i'm here, trying to dip my toes into Actual Professional Writing because i have a story and an idea, and listening to your videos in the background feels like falling into bed after a long day. that is to say, i'm a big fan and i love when you post analysis and videos like this that go over the state of the industry.
tbh mediocrity is like an industry wide issue rn. It's what kinda put me off reading anything new because its just a giant coin flip on whether the book ACTUALLY feels like it got any editing to be a good story
Oh for sure, I’m doing separate videos about this in different genres and age ranges. One genre this happens to me a lot in is thrillers (specifically ones that don’t utilize supernatural elements). I can’t even count the amount of thrillers I’ve DNFed in the last two years at this point because they don’t differentiate themselves from each other. It feels like deja vu.
The first 500 people to use my link will get a 1 month free trial of Skillshare!: skl.sh/readswithrachel01241
PSA for Fantasy writers: your story doesn't _need_ a revolution. Your story doesn't _need_ a love triangle. The Hunger Games came out over a decade ago, you can drop the outline already
I know HG probably isn't even the true root of the issue but my god _why does everything need a revolution_
And hunger games didnt even have really a love triangle, she was probably forced to include one, why its never really one.
And if you do include them, do reserch revolutions at least somewhat to at least get interesting ideas.
If they MUST include it, I'd like to see a love triangle where character A is in love with character B, B in love with C, and C in love with A
And they chase and pine after each other until they either move on or start getting so close that they all fall for one another and end up in a polycule lol
Most of the time, all these YA "love triangles" are actually love corners where the female protagonist is pushed into by toxic men (thinking of Twilight)
OR the author makes it abundantly clear from page 1 who the end choice is going to be, so it's obvious that the love triangle is just there for the drama (also thinking of Twilight lol but pretty much every single YA I've ever read; the author has a clear favourite and it's painfully obvious).
A decade?? Oh no
@@nenegrey2282 Yes, a love triangle is where all three points are included. That’s actual drama cause there is no clear couple winning whereas in the “love corner”, one character is default, and it’s a (very biased) “toss up” between the other two.
as someone who writes YA fantasy that ISN'T romance centric... feeling like i'm out in the trenches rn
omg same, like i'm writing a very classic fantasy story that will eventually have some romance, but isn't centred around it, and it feels like all other YA fantasy is just... this
YES. I’m not a writer but this is the main problem I have with YA of any focus (dystopian, fantasy, post apocalyptic, etc) and why I stopped reading it altogether. It’s nothing but: MMC can’t keep it in his pants and is constantly brooding and “tortured” and can’t take a damn joke and takes himself waaayyyyy too seriously. And he falls in love with a random girl he knows nothing about and who isn’t interesting in the least because she’s supposed to be his fated mate and he’s horny/lonely” YAWN. and FMC is dying to be dicked down 24/7 (highly unrealistic) and has no personality beyond “not being like other girls” but all of a sudden once she meets *insert unique/“sexy”/mouthful of a name with a weird pronunciation here* suddenly her life has meaning and she becomes more interesting” YAWN. EEEWWW. it’s just so cringe and gross. It’s 2024 and dammit this should not still be happening.
Godspeed and thank you for your service 🫡
YA and adult fantasy writer (I refuse to call it NA because it's in such a weird place LOL) here and I feel your pain.
Drop some titles, I wanna read something good!
Worst part is that the homogeneous writing style and meh quality have migrated to adult fantasy
yep, it feels like the entire concept of the "new adult" genre is just an excuse to write this kind of YA but get more explicit with the romance.
Yeah, crappy writing, boring 13 a dozen mediocre story, copypaste plot/characters but add sex and profanity to make it 'adult'!
This is what Ive been afraid of and I'm sad to hear that it really is happening ;;
This right here. I need to do so much research nowadays just to even buy a book in the adult fantasy section without a "spicy" love triangle, lazy worldbuilding or the political understanding of a 4 year old smh
As someone who works in publishing. Write the book. I promise you it’s not as bad as you think and IF it is…it’s better than most books being bought rn.
This is something I needed to see as an aspiring fantasy author. Thank you
That’s the only sentence I really need to hear lol
wrote the book, I'm querying, might not get trad pub... I'm sad
This isn’t every YA book, but a lot of them I feel like are too afraid to “kill their darlings.” The stakes feel so much lower if you don’t feel like major characters are in danger. There’s also nothing I despise more than when an author will lead the audience to believe that they have mustered up the courage to actually kill one of their darlings, only to have them be miraculously brought back to life ten pages later.
Milk toast God mode, always and forever, truly.
the Illuminae series did that "kill your darlings" bait and switch in every. fucking. book. it got irritating.
Throne of Glass killed the WRONG Darling and I went DNF immediately after
@@randompromises1038 It’s been a while since I’ve read those, and I don’t remember who actually died. I wanted Rowan to die. Partially because I don’t particularly like him, and partially because there could have been some interesting subtext about choosing to give up immortality there.
I agree, I remember reading this one sci-fi YA book that had seemingly 'killed' off the main male love interest and it was such a fitting end to the series I was so happy, aaaand then he miraculously survived blowing up in space and falling to the planet below. Have never loathed a series more than after that, especially because it would've been more cohesive if the darling actually STAYED dead
The problem with being an 'aura seer' is that the vast majority of human beings can already read people's emotions no problem. Like, basic empathy and common sense isn't a magical power. You don't even need empathy to learn how to read emotions. So what's special or interesting about it?
The Deanna Troi problem: either you can only read what everyone else can already read (“I have a feeling he’s lying but I’m not sure why”) or when it’s plot convenient you can just read their whole mind (“he’s planning to kill the king with poison tomorrow morning!”) or the author needs to use heavy-handed manipulation to keep you away from things you can’t know yet because the plot wouldn’t happen if you knew
I immediately thought how much that would be useful to me and other ASD people, and imagine if THAT was the plot of the story. That at least would be interesting
Not to the point the magical readers should be able to. People are actually rubbish at being correct at seeing other's emotions, that's why the whole 'read body language' is pseudoscience. So an aura seer could be somebody who actually can do what the body language experts claim they can do. What is the problem is the second half of your comment - authors not knowing how to handle it.
Honestly magical to people who can't mentalize though xD
@@emmanarotzky6565 Deanna Troi is a good example. The author could've done a Charmed thing and made it so she would have been overwhelmed by the emotions and took them on herself. Hell, then you have a whole bit where she'd be learning how to control or handle having other people's emotions.
I'm a freelance editor. I have worked with some AMAZING authors. I have also worked with authors who never wrote anything before they had too much time during the pandemic. I saw a post online yesterday from someone who is a self-published author and they said they weren't even a reader before lockdown, then they...got bored of what they were reading and decided to write their own stuff?
Good writing takes YEARS of practice, of consuming good stories and learning how to put words together in a pleasant way. I just did a trial edit yesterday for someone who so clearly wanted to write a Hunger Games rip off and.........ugh. I know no one wants to hear "You're not ready for publishing yet," but it isn't bullying, it's because you need to practice. That first idea you have doesn't need to be a 100,000 word manuscript.
That's what fanfiction is for but some people are not into any fandoms or feel passionate enough to get into it. Fanfics create a non commercial chill space where you can dump your writing and expectations are proportionate.
It can be cheesey, overdone, not well written or maybe immature but the community is low stakes and everyone acknowledges that writing bad things paves the way to write good things.
Unfortunately there isn't a space equal to fanfic for original authors who just want to write for fun. Wattpad is a thing yes but it's associated more with teenagers and even then it pushes to monetization
Im a YA/NA fantasy writer and this is EXACTLY why i had to leave the writing industry, until recently. I call these paint-by-numbers, popcorn/candy reads because they're all filler and no substance lmao
Popcorn is at least tasty, reading mediocre dribble gives me headaches
@@exomake_mehorololo came here to say that, thank you haha
I call them granola books. Messy, lies about taste, is dry and gets everywhere. 😂
the only good thing i can say about this, is that i feel more confident about my writing knowing that Fouth Wing got published + the secuel
SAME! I hope to write something and get published. Readers are hungry for something meaningful, and hopefully aspiring authors will continue to recognize this and strive to fix it.
😂
The writing style of fourth wing feels very much like a first draft. Of an author whose first language isn't even English, that's how choppy it is 😅
Same and Lightlark as well! Hell, E.L. James and CoHo exist as well. 🥲🤞
though to be fair, i feel like those books get published BECAUSE they are mediocre. it seems like the demand for such books have risen, thanks to tiktok, and so the authors are okay with settling for mediocrity and agents actually looking for mediocrity. on the other hand, writing decent plot and romance and not just some trendy trope infested garbage is not likely to generate the "buzz" around it.
Rachel, you can't use the phrase "fling yourself into the sun", Lauren M Davis copyrighted the sun 😂
Oh shoot you are so right! How could I forget! I’ll also start supplementing my vitamin D because the sun, as we know, belongs to Lauren.
i feel like many authors are primarly romance/erotica writers, but since "romantasy" is what sells they plop their couple into a barely-sketched fantasy world and call it a day
Oh look you just described Fourth Wing lol
Sjm could've written omegaverse smut on AO3 about fairies and left us be 😭
I think the mediocrity comes from ya authors writing concepts they read about in other ya books (whether those books are mediocre or not) and not fully understanding (or maybe even agreeing with the conclusion those other authors came to) those concepts like racism, colonialism, sexism, etc. and so they have nothing deeper to write about or think about. I think YA authors forget that even a cute fantasy romance requires critical thinking
My story Encryption Straffe was first drafted as a kinda generic YA and then I shifted the POV to different people in the world who can explain how the world is shaped and how the hero-equivalent affected their lives. At east it's more fun to write.
Yes this!
I've realized over the years that I'd rather deal with clunky or awkward prose if the actual story, character writing, and plot beats are interesting and well done, but the opposite just makes me feel like I've been tricked and wasted my time.
Same.
Okay, but I hate how awesome these book covers are. How dare they put such art on top of such subpar stories? 😂
The artists are really the MVPs here!!
@@ReadswithRachelfrom a professional graphic designer, thank you
Yeah, that’s why they sell horrible books with amazing covers, because it’s hard to say no to them.
TW: self-harm
I can see self-harm being used as a coping mechanism, HOWEVER, B I G caveat. Self-harm isn’t JUST cutting. Pretty much any negative coping mechanism that someone uses as a form of punishment, or simply just because it makes them feel better is self-harm.
Scratching yourself, degrading yourself, any form of pain; hell, I consider even starving yourself as a form of self-harm.
If a person’s only portrayal of self-harm is cutting, then I have to wonder at the reasoning behind it
Good point!
And some nuance I never see given is not all self-injurious behavior is self harm either. I have BFRB-related compulsions that often end up causing me pain or physical harm, but I’m not doing it to intentionally hurt myself, it’s a side effect of what I feel I “need” to do. But also things like certain tics or stims might hurt someone, but aren’t done with the intent to hurt themselves. Which is very different from me going out of my way to intentionally trigger myself with content online, which is definitely self harm but it’s emotional self harm, not physical.
Exactly! Sometimes (most, honestly) it's a very subtle, minute thing that's not automatically noticeable.
TW: my own experiences with SH
Excellent points you both! I think a lot of people use “cutting” because it’s the most sensationalized coping mechanism, unfortunately. It’s the most likely to turn heads; and when a character does it everyone kind of knows instinctively what’s going on, so the author doesn’t have to do research into the how, or the why.
I used to scratch myself if I got angry, because it felt like there was no other way for me to express it. And I’d cycle between forgoing long sleeves (because I wanted people to notice) and hiding them with long sleeves.
That kind of nuance can so easily be missed if an author doesn’t take the time to do research and asking about other people’s experiences. I find it helpful to describe those experiences as something akin to an addiction, because even after I’d long stopped, I still feel the urge to if I get angry enough.
I used to SH via cutting when I was younger, but as I got older I started taking on an arguably worse form of it by going online to read comments made by awful people and internalizing what they would say.
Theses days it feels like every fantasy book I read prioritizes the romance over everything else. Mostly applies to adult fantasy but it just gives 14 yo writing a werewolf book on Wattpad during math class. No planning or storyboarding just "hmm how do I make my 19 year old sheltered female lead meet her enemy that's not really her enemy"
I feel like the issue here is that the ppl writing the YA fantasy are only focused on romance, specifically certain tropes of romance (like bad boy x good girl dynamic) and they skimp out on world building since the type of readers invested in these types books only read it because of that romance trope dynamic. They don’t care about the quality of the writing so long as their favorite ship dynamic or kink is played out
Also, as a fanfic writer, I notice that a lot of newer authors were former fanfic writers as well. The appeal to writing fanfiction is being able to just write a story without having to worry about world building as the readers already know the original media material. Tho when these former fanfic writers become authors, they dont bother to properly world build since world building isnt necessary for writing fanfiction to inform new readers. I can see thats why a lot of greek retellings in romance genres can be confusing for those who aren’t familiar with greek mythology or be inaccurate, since the authors are approaching the mindset of not needing to world build and assume bcuz greek mythology is popular (tho not every detail of it), they dont have to world build, just write the romance. Even then the romance just follows the stereotypical archetypes u see a like reylo, edward x bella, which readers only care about reading that dynamic in a book, not the whole thing
@@pizzadogma omg that's such a good point about former fanfic writers!
That why I couldn’t get into any modern fantasy YA novel .
It _also_ explains the recycling/life cycle of the Trope of the Day. Even in fandoms, writers chase trends, because whatever 'top dogs' are around set the stage for what's popular. Thus, the only way to get any traction yourself is to do the exact same thing. This can go on for years and years; everyone and their dog writing That One Popular Fic's premise. The mindset's just in the 'mainstream' now, with financial incentives and Hollywood deals dangled in front of the whole industry's noses.
Most of these tropes are like fast fashion in book form, if that makes sense. Like, the writers or publishers, whoever, are so worried about staying on top they just crank out crap, with no real thought to actual substance.
Also, the remark about mixing high notes and low notes reminded me of Disney's Mulan (animated). Part of why the destroyed village hits the audience so hard is because right up to the reveal of said village, there's the bouncy, funny song "A Girl Worth Fighting For". Fun, light, everybody's friendly... and the smoking wreckage, doll in the snow, and the general's helmet. Ouch.
OOF this is such a good comparison
I hate when the blurb sounds so freaking good and then it’s a mediocre story
I used to never really read reader reviews on stuff, now I feel like I have to.
Funny, for me that synopsys sounded like the most boring book ever
I feel like I'm too young to pull the "back in my day we had GOOD YA fantasy", line but honestly, it's true. Tamora Pierce. Garth Nix's Old Kingdom trilogy. Phillip Pullman. Jonathan Stroud. Why does no one talk about these anymore? It feels like the internet has forgotten about all of the actually good, if a bit older, YA fantasy and it is a travesty.
Edit: Not to mention the stellar children's fantasy that exists, namely the Chronicles of Prydain by Lloyd Alexander and The Dark is Rising sequence by Susan Cooper. Just had to shout those out as well!
I need to reread Tamora Pierce's books. I loved those in middle school
The Circle of Magic quartet, Old Kingdom Trilogy, and Bartimaeus trilogy are some of my favourite books! The former in particular is very dear to me. I love the found family aspect, and how close the four main characters feel, and the unusual magic system. I also have some of the Edge Chronicles books, and I'd like to read all of them some day, and Terry Pratchett's Tiffany Aching books are among my favourite books ever. Diana Wynne Jones has some fantastic books as well--the Howl trilogy, the Dark Lord of Derkholm, the Merlin Conspiracy, the Dalemark quartet, Dogsbody, Fire and Hemlock, Eight Days of Luke, Aunt Maria, The Homeward Bounders, the Chrestomanci series, and more, all amazing books.
I'm still often confused by what qualifies as a divide between 'kids' books' and 'YA', since YA can mean so many different things now and encompasses a huge range of different kinds of books. There are some good new series out there, though--the Nevermoor series, the Kyoshi novels, the Amari series, and Aiden Thomas is shaping up to be a very popular author. I've never read His Dark Materials, though I know there's been a whole lot of controversy over the ending and the prequel series being of debatable quality.
@@kurathchibicrystalkitty5146 I thought the new Pullman books were stellar! And I loved the original trilogy, although I think I'm overdue for a re-read.
@@hollym7878 I'd vaguely heard that the new trilogy was getting a lot of mixed reviews, but that was years ago, so maybe opinions have changed over time. I only read the first one, and didn't like it, though maybe not reading the original trilogy beforehand might've been a factor? [I do know all the plot twists and spoilers already.] I do really like the idea of daemons, at least.
For every good YA book you mentioned there were probably ten bad ones that came out too you just don't remember them because they were forgettable.
personally i can't imagine anything more harmful and stifling to creativity than following formulas for how to write fantasy
The thing that confuses me about the Aura seer thing is, what happened that the emperor needed a new Auraseer in the first place? Like she only killed everyone at the convent, if the Aura seer needs to stay at the palace, then wouldn't he still have one? Do this women stay at the convent all their lives until the Emperor needs a new one? I'm confused about this particular plot
A character who constantly cries due to ptsd after accidentally vomiting genocide could be really interesting.
Not that I think that’s what they did.
Get a feeling they just fridged all the other empaths.
This is why I want to create a story wherein someone deals with horrific trauma or has a disability and IT AFFECTS THEIR LIFE. A mage with ADHD who slacks on his school and therefore struggles due to it. Someone who was abused in their childhood who now has DID, and it affects their life and the way they deal with magic. Someone who's self harming despite being a super powerful knight. Just humanity and regular issues I suffer with in these fantasy people.
I remembered reading city of bones cause people recommended Cassie EVERYWHERE.
Well, I have to say, I was so traumatized with that book and YA Romantasy that I have not taken a single book from Cassie since then
I hated the City of Bones series. Her "Infernal Devices" series I did actually enjoy--perhaps the writing matured a bit? Idk. It didn't feel AS cringey, but it still had the flavor. Perhaps it was just more tolerable, idk.
But yeah, her first series is not good.
@@the_goddess_1859 200 pages in and the main leads were so f boring that I felt cheated. Lucky that I dropped it off before the incest part. Gross...
Ever since I found out about her incest and plagiarism scandal I have not picked up anything from her 😭
The infernal devices is her one book series where i was obsessed and it was genuinely good, the others are either bad or have questionable narrative points
@@the_goddess_1859 the only thing I remember about that book is me yelling "this dumb chic is an insult to teenager" cause in my head, the main girl is Cassie's representation of how teenager behave :)))
As a lover of fantasy genre in books, I admit that there was a moment that I almost fell out of love with fantasy because of the advent of "YA Fantasy" and their focus solely on romance rather than intricate worldbuilding. This is why I am select on which fantasy titles I read and hopefully enjoy. I enjoyed the Grishaverse books of Leigh Bardugo and the Shades of Magic series by V.E. Schwab, as they are, I believe, among the list of remaining fantasy series that still has credibility in the fantasy genre.
Sad to see that my favorite genre has become too washed with mediocre writing, considering how fantasy is not only an escape from the uncertainty of real life but a stimulant for my stressed, neurodivergent brain.
Tolkien really helped outline what fantasy COULD be, especially high fantasy, and it feels like that's fading away.
Which makes me sad. I LOVE huge world building, I LOVE it when authors attempt their own language building, I love magic systems, I love lore and history, like create a world for me with awesome characters. Make the romance a part of it, not the focus.
And it's never a good, healthy romance, either. It feels like every male interest is a toxic cesspool. Like give me better options at least. I used to love the "bad boy to lover" trope, and now I see it as a red flag.
So true. Fantasy is my favorite genre, but I find myself reading less and less of it specifically because the chaff is so omnipresent now it's hard to find any wheat. I detest these mediocre paint-by-numbers "romantasies" with a passion for this.
@@the_goddess_1859 *...Epithet Erased: Prison of Plastic* is pretty darn similar to what you would want... please let me talk about my favorite book i've had a hyperfixation on for 7 months now that no one cares about, PLEASE, I NEED TO TALK ABOUT THIS BOOK I LOVE IT SO MUCH-
I read Belladonna recently and I was just so disappointed. Got lured in by a gorgeous cover and an interesting premise and then the actual contents was confused, muddy, generally unclear as to where they actually were. :/ I keep trying to give the book away
I think a large part of these writers (not just YA/NA) is I get the impression they think writing is easy. Easy in a sense they don't have to plan things out, edit, etc. They think planting seeds of what is popular (i.e. forbidden love) would be enough. I'm a folklorist too and I noticed this with certain retellings, including one who admitted she never read a well-known mythic epic that she 'RETOLD' (still mindblown). I received an ARC and I FELT IT right away. It was actually well-written but it felt lacking in that regard.
I've been mulling over a plot I've been excited about since high school. I'm nearing thirty now and still am not pleased with some of the plot threads. I COULD NOT IMAGINE just cranking that bad boy out in its original form.
Go for it! I would love to read it. It shows to me that you CARE! (In fairness, sure these writers may care, but I still feel they think it's super easy, and their writing suffers.) @@the_goddess_1859
I picked up "The Girl of Fire and Thorns" on a whim from the bargain bin the other day and it was so mid that I can't stop thinking about it. The cover shows a blond white woman when the mc is fantasy Latina, and it's downhill from there, but I have serious brainrot about it for some reason.
Is this the one where she has like a gem in her bellybutton?
Def a good example of aggressively mediocre
A gem… in her bellybutton…. Like trolls?!
Yes! It's a second world fantasy where THEE Christian God moved people to a new world and every hundred years there is a chosen one with a blue gem in their bellybutton. It also has poor fat representation, colorism, lots of weird religious stuff, underage marriage...a mess.
@@ReadswithRachel from Wikipedia “The Princess of Orovalle, Lucero-Elisa de Riqueza, was born as the chosen one, selected by God to fulfill a prophecy shown by a blue gem in her navel called the Godstone. Lucero-Elisa lacks confidence in herself, and often eats out of unhappiness; she is described as "fat" in the novel.” On second thought, this one isn’t even mediocre, it’s just bad
Oh my god I thought nobody else would say this, these books are just painting by the numbers, is like Sarah J. Maas made a manual and everyone else is just following adding absolute no flavor to it.
A mediocre manual.
I call it "Maas Production."
@@ManILoveFurina
I'm just going to COPY that 😗😆
@@ManILoveFurina you win the internet for today.
I feel like you're right. Other authors saw how popular her books are and started copying her writing, and in a way this destroyed YA fantasy
Some YA Fantasy that I’ve loved lately: Song of Silver, Flame Like Night by Amelie Wen Zhao, A Study in Drowning by Ava Reid, and Girls of Paper and Fire by Natasha Ngan
I hate that some people think that just because a book is for a young audience, the quality doesn’t matter! It matters so so much!
^this! Teens deserve well plotted books!
I am so excited for A Study in Drowning
I have 2 short stories coming out in 2024 so far, but as a YA writer, it's becoming a personal goal for you to deem my novel debut "not mediocre." 😂
please let us know when it does! i would love to read more from smaller and indie authors
I know this particular book is older, but I feel like authors really should stop with writing generic fantasy imperial Russia at this point. It never does it justice when it comes to... you know... actual real life imperialism and colonialism in this time
Not to say most of the times it's so painfully obvious they write about it from a western perspective. I am sorry but the cold war brainrot the western has about what Russia (and eastern europe at large) was and still is makes me churn everytime a sliver of a plot there gets introduced.
It's always written with the POV of white people as if Russia hadn't colonized almost all central Asia. You never see a turkic/central asian character in these novels.
Also it almost reeks of exoticism, don't ask me why. They see cold climate, poor potato eaters and the vague plot of Anastasia and they jump on it immediatly
Unfortunately, most novels are mediocre. I think it feels more prevalent today because most of the mediocre books of the past have been forgotten. Time is a sieve, filtering out the bad, the mediocre, and even the good, leaving only the truly exceptional and skewing our view of the quality of past art. Edgar Wallace, for example, wrote a lot of good books (and a surprisingly few mediocre ones, given he wrote more than 200 works (novels, plays, and short story collections) in 28 years), was phenomenally popular, and 90 years after his death virtually none of his works are remembered.
The best-seller lists of the late 60s being dominated by the smut of Harold Robbins, Jacqueline Susann, and the like, led a group of journalists to write the intentionally poorly-written “Naked Came the Stranger”, because they thought any schlock could become a best-seller if there was enough sex. Sure enough, it sold 20,000 copies before the authors came clear.
I think also more books are being published in thr past + social media marketing has exposed a lot of "mediocre" books to the public than before. It also doesnhelp that romance is what sells the most and if u are not interested in it, its more obvious to see how lacking a book is when u remove the romance plots
There's also less gatekeeping. Anyone can publish absolutely anything now. There's no like...sincere quality control it feels like anymore
I'm always so worried that my writing is mediocore. Because I'm confident enough in my work to say that it isn't bad but how can I be sure it isn't mediocore?
Use the eyes of others! Betareaders, editors, people with fresh eyes and different perspectives.
Also, read lots yourself. I can tell where I should improve by reading other stories that are very well written. It shows me the contrast between that standard and my own work.
you can't. you can only put it out into the world and see what people think. if it's mediocre, you can try again!
Idk if I’m alone in this or not (probably not,) but the editing process is my favourite part of the writing process. Like the whole world and story is laid out for you and you can just play with it until “good” becomes “fantastic.” The hardest part is just getting my ideas to paper in the first place lol!
Nah, you're right! I actually enjoy editing since it means reviewing back what you wrote and enjoying your geniuses (or stupidity). Also, it helps me go "Aha!" when I realizes what I can fix or what I missed.
The problem has always been writing it down in the first place! 😭
Thank you! All YA readers deserve better, but especially the actual young people reading these. I worry these books will put them off reading more in the future or turn them off the fantasy genre when there are better books or there if they keep going.
And its not that fantasy books wer always good, but damn, they should at least try to have a plot and worldbuilding and at least try work that out. It doesnt work always out, but erotica without trying that shoulsnt be sold as fantasy but erotica.
And erotica has a market. A big market,
The other major ick I'm seeing is young female readers are beginning to idolize the objectively awful male lead characters in these books. They're like...harassing other men who "give the vibes", I've straight up seen "If he isn't this obsessed and crazy about me, I don't want him" and I'm like girl...HE WILL KILL YOU, WHAT DO YOU MEAN???
This is something interesting I've noticed with a lot of recent YA books and series. They don't feel written for the current YA audience. They feel written for 25+ year olds who want to keep only reading what they consider "YA quality." Which is sad because older YA fantasy was really good.
There's also the observation that YA feels more like the romance genre leaving actual romance to only be erotica. Which is just weird imo, but that's a different discussion.
Don’t forget the straight up porn that’s shelved right next to Harry Potter and Percy Jackson in bookstores. That stuff belongs in NA, not YA.
Yep , thats scary. I am that ya should have sexscenes and that possible, but not straight up porn , aproviate@@gem9535
I stopped reading books for fun for a very long time. At a certain point every time I picked up a new book it felt like I was just reading a worse version of a thing I'd already read before. All it took was a couple weeks in a row of deciding "eh I don't really feel like going to the bookstore/library" and I was out of the habit. I don't think the publishing industry can push out only bangers even if it wants to but I think there's an attitude that it doesn't matter if you put out mediocre content for YA and Kids and I think that backfires.
The other day i decided to read a proper book after a while, and half way there i thought: I've read better fanfics. While writing fanfics is a proper art (considering i write them myself), if you're a published author, I'd expect your book to feel better than a smut fic a fan wrote because they love a ship so much.
Different expectations. Since fanfics are a non commercialized activity that is also a refuge for marginalized people there is a different approach.
Fanfic readers acknowledge the fact that bad things need to get written to hone your craft and putting your work out there is a big scary leap.
With tradpub that grace falls off because readers rightfully expect quality control and some competency since money is involved. Considering that the industry is gatekeepey, crystalized in its biases and hails white peoole above all readers get rightfully pissed at undeserving notoriety and praise
I've been looking around my local library's catalog for fiction books with transmasc rep. And I've noticed that there's significantly more transgender fiction in the YA section than in the adult fiction section. Specifically, there are a lot of results for YA Fantasy. Don't get me wrong I love that YA authors are creating more rep for us! But I was wondering, is this a regular trend everywhere? And if so, why are there more YA authors writing transgender rep than authors writing for adults? (btw Rachel I have been watching your channel for almost my entire undergrad career and I want to thank you for making such entertaining and educational videos!!)
I think that it’s because this generation of authors is the first to get the opportunity to write their stories in this amount, and they’re writing the rep they always wanted to see that the generation after them needs. But that generation writing it was the generation who was reading YA not even that long ago. Many of them are only 20-30 and have been working on those stories a long time. I think many of them will naturally start moving to writing more books for adults and the generation reading their YA stuff will then take over writing the YA stuff
Oh man Kingdom of the Wicked also genuinely made me angry. It was hard to quantify why, but I think it had to do with all the little elements that we were just told were a thing, but never shown. Especially the brotagonist, which sin was he??? Wrath? I think he was Wrath. And the main girl, whatever her name was, kept insisting how evil he was, how many terrible things he'd done as to indicate she shouldn't trust him. But the author never told us anything specific Wrath had done on the past. The author also never showed Wrath doing anything terrible in the present of the novel, the one moment that was considered dubious, magic was involved iirc a random dude having his body controlled, wasn't even Wrath's doing, it was the main chick. And on top of all that, the main chick basically trusted Wrath instantly. It was just a whole bunch of running around for no fucking reason.
Same, I couldn't figure out why I hated it. I narrowed in on the teasing, that seemed way overdone
exactly why i like middle grade fantasy more! the plots usually don't revolve around romance and usually focus on friendships or familial bonds, and the fantasy worlds and magic systems tend to be more original and not just built around a trope.
It's sad that the YA author that I love , who actually put effort into their books and writing. They all are midlist authors
hmmm the thing is that a book can have a lot of effort in it but is not marketed well, or doesn't have mass appeal. Even if it might be great technically.
Drop their names!!
I think the mediocre readers play a big part in the state of YA, let's be real
@zkkitty2436 Amber Mcbride, Riss m Neilson , Tessa Gratton, and Jamie Pacton
@@MariaRodriguez-dx6sm That's exactly the issue, naive TSTL but "special" girl paired with a generic dark, tall and brooding bad boy (who's also a royal or an immortal fae / vampire), or maybe 2 of them where one is the prince and the other the leader of the rebellion, or one is a childhood friend and the other is a villain, or witch paired with a witch hunter, or poor girl from a colonized nation paired with the son of the colonizing emperor, has a big chance to go viral on tiktok, while anything that doesn't rely on cheesy romance tropes like love triangle or enemies-to-lovers will get little buzz, and it's especially bad if the book is queer or with Black characters (or generally POC), then it's getting even less buzz.
My mediocre y/a series (if it counts as that) would be the Adventures of Jacky Faber series. It's a like 13 book historical fiction series about an obnoxiously impulsive girl who pretend to be a boy to join the British Navy, and the entire series is just "Jacky makes 3-5 bad impulse decisions and had to deal with the consequences of her own actions until it eventually resolves itself." But every book ends basically where it begins narratively, and every book she falls for a new man, (general a grown-ass adult who should not be talking to her, she's like 14) only for her to rebuff them because she's still hung up on the guy she decided is her soul mate when she was 10. Also she's almost sexually assaulted in every book. It was infuriating. I'd started book five before I was like "I actually hate this" and DNF'd.
I loved the first few of these as a 3rd-5th grader, but the series was just way too long and the later books were not good
Also I haven’t reread them since middle school so maybe they were more problematic than I realized
I read them as a kid too! I loved this first book as a child but stopped reading around book 5. It felt like the plot was being recycled and Jackie kept making the same mistakes and regressing on any character growth.
I remember this to be a very strangely pedophilic book
@@mittag983 Yeah, like the guy writing it forgot his protagonist was a young teen girl for most of his work and was writing as if she was a mid-twenties woman.
Thank you so much for bringing up Raybearer. It is such a wonderful and heartbreakingly beautiful book. I adore all of the characters (Ekundayo made me feel seen) and am currently enjoying the sequel, Redemptor.
Oh my gosh, as you started describing the plot, I realized I’d tried reading this before but stopped pretty much after the first page because of how it handled self harm. I’m glad I didn’t finish it
It's kind of dissapointing that a plot like "Main character struggles to make sense of herself due to being overwhelmed by the emotions of others" was developed so poorly, because that's perfect psychological horror and unreliable narrator material.
I've noticed there's been this *overflow* in mediocre books for a while now and it kind of worries me. It's showing that the publishing industry (big surprise 😮💨) is trying to sell shlock and claim its decent. The issue is, that its causing genuinely good stories to fall through the cracks. We're being told a story is Jaws and we're getting Sharknado.
You know what though, if the worst thing anyone can say about my book is that it’s mediocre (mostly affectionate), I’ll honestly be glad. 😅
I feel it's excusable for your first few books, honestly.
The issue is mediocrity is becoming celebrated. People are insisting all that is made should be candy, and not hearty, filling meals. And the other issue is a lot of us are damn tired of candy and want some damn good pot roast
I hate the similarities between all the YA fantasy coverart.
I’m thinking of making my own book cover art and the best part is that as the writer, no one knows what fits the book more than me.
Perfect for upcoming writers to use as writing advice 🥰 Thank you!
most tasteful and well integrated ad read I've heard!
I snagged one of the skill share trials from your last video and have been learning how to make book covers and graphic design. Enjoying it a lot!
I’m so happy to hear this 😭🥹 I’ve been legitimately considering getting an art tablet and learning to do art just for fun and sometimes I watch the skillshare classes on introductions to art and I’m just like… getting the itch to try it out.
Why? Because YA Lit is the Mean Girls of publishing. You have to be in the clique to get published. If you don’t agree with everything the clique says then you’re out.
As someone who loves fantasy stories but avoids YA fantasy-romance books like the plague, I feel like you read my mind
As an aspiring YA author listening to you explain and downfalls of the books and the ways the author could have created more suspense really brought more insight to my own work! Thanks for this video!
I’m so glad!
Thank you for doing these videos where you use a mediocre/terrible book as an example on what writers shouldn't do and take the time to point out to us not yet published writers where you believed they went wrong and giving not only examples of books that did the same theme better, but also sharing your thoughts and ideas on what would have made the mediocre or terrible books better.
I really appreciate you spending the time to take Skillshare courses in order to build more knowledge and theory to be able to make videos like this.
💜This is one of the many reasons I love your channel. 💜
I am in the middle of writing an Epic Fantasy series, and when I look at what fantasy books are popular at the moment, all I see are these types of YA Romantasy books, or the Adult versions of the same (usually Dark Romantasy), but this is not where my books fit at all, which makes me unsure about whether they would do well. (Although I'm based in NZ so will probably have to go the self-published route which makes things harder as well).
My influences are more old-school like Robert Jorden, Anne McCaffrey, Raymond E Feist, Tamora Pierce. Brandon Sanderson, and Terry Brooks, as I have pretty much read all of these authors books, and I am currently working my way through Robin Hobb.
I’m a fan of some Brandon Sanderson books and some Robin Hobb so I look forward to the day you publish!
Thank you for being here 💕
@@ReadswithRachel Thank you!
Can I ask which Robin Hobb books you like?
I am currently reading through the Farseer (Assassin) Trilogy and it took me a while to get into it, and its a little annoying how much the main character fails. But the writing is pretty good.
I didn’t read the assassin’s apprentice but I read ship of magic and enjoyed it!
I had the privilege of having Benjamin Percy come to my college English class, and the lessons he taught about storytelling are ones I still remember over 10 years later. He's excellent, glad they have him on SkillShare!
To this day I find it difficult to put into words how upset I was at Red Queen’s dogged devotion to mediocrity. You couldn’t avoid its aggressive promotion for even a second, and for what?
I wanted it to get better so bad. I read 2.5 books out of that series before I finally realized it wasn’t going to get better.
My favourite author ever is Kate Elliott and most of her books are adult SFF but she did one foray into YA Fantasy with the Court of Fives trilogy and I *ate* that trilogy up. Elliott is already generally prolific with her worldbuilding in exactly the way I love and her characterization is top-notch, so I love most of her series. What made Court of Fives a stand-out YA Fantasy for me though is specifically the many contradicting needs and desires which main character Jes finds herself in the middle of. The setting is inspired by the Roman rule of Egypt when Roman classes were above the Egyptian classes, and she is one of the daughters of a Roman-analogue up-and-coming soldier and an Egyptian-analogue civilian woman, so she is already straddling two worlds without being able to fully enter either of it. She is an athlete in a special field that is beloved by the country, but there are reasons why she has to hide it in her family life which adds strain to her daily life. And later, the political pickle she finds herself in basically forces her to choose between ALL these avenues and more. Seeing her juggle all of it against her own cares and desires, all the while discovering what she *doesn't* know about the world and having her limited perspective expand was a joy throughout the series. In my opinion, it's one of those stories where plots, character arcs and settings all have their own things going on and they all reflect each other in one way or another (like the same light reflecting off all the different angles of a jewel, if I have to get ~cringe~ poetic here). All the while, if I were to /simplify/ the plot hooks and beats and list them in order, anyone who read it in passing would think it was a "regular" YA Fantasy (young girl, unlikely love interest in power, a family to protect, a huge injustice that needs to be overcome, whispers of revolutions, etc). UGH I RECOMMEND IT TO EVERYONE THOUGH because even when you can see where things might be going due to genre trends, I can assure you that things don't stay where you think they're going to stay. (Also the unlikely love interest in power in this case is a character I want to wrap in blankets and bows, he is so precious.)
A series that I will ALWAYS recommend is Skulduggery Pleasant. It's initially children's, but becomes YA later on by virtue of heavy themes and violence. No matter how dark it gets, there's always some wit and comedy there to balance it out.
Also there's a funny skeleton who wears a suit, and there's not nearly enough books with those.
I was obsessed with the Infernal Devices trilogy when I was much younger. I loved it to bits, and then it gradually faded into a guilty pleasure sort of feeling, and then couldn't even think about it without cringing. That was my only venture into 'typical YA territory'. Unless Seraphina and Shadow Scale [by Rachel Hartman] count?
I think Seraphina counts. I love those books. Thank you for reminding me they exist
Ehhhhh seraphina isn’t really a cardboard cutout YA story- there’s no real romance iirc
@@Eosinophyllis I wished Seraphina could've had the princess as a love interest. I felt like they had a lot more chemistry together. Or maybe I just thought the irony was too good to pass up, the idea of a half-dragon girl falling in love with a princess...
@@kurathchibicrystalkitty5146 same :( oh well! it was still a really good book and good enough on a reread
Part of why I am training to be an editor is to try to curb even a little of this crap
Ugh I want to as well! Im sure a lot of these stories could be better.
You had me at the Sleep Token comment. Because that was a straight up fact. Enjoying that I found you a few videos back. Getting back into focusing on my reading hobby this year and looking for reviewers who are into similar books as me.
I love your constant use of inclusive language, even word choices that are relatively new to the public. The one that stood out to me the most was saying “d*ed by su**ide” (which is a cause of death) instead of “committed su**ide” (which implies an immoral choice). Your word choice matters and is appreciated ❤️
Yes this is a very respectful and kind way to talk about this topic
To be honest, I learned that thanks to my audience and I’m very grateful to you all for teaching me this stuff so I can do better.
You’ve made some really good points here. I’ve temporarily stepped away from YA as I felt I was giving consistently negative reviews. Which I initially thought was maybe indicative of “aging out”of the genre. But then I noticed that manyyyyy booktubers were complaining about a dip in quality so maybe it was that too.
100% agree about Raybearer!! One of my all time favorite YA books. I just so wish that Redemptor had been of the same caliber 😫
when benjamin percy was a visiting teacher at my college, i was lucky enough to take a writing workshop class with him, and even 10+ years later i still think of that class fondly and i grew so much as a writer during that semester. it's exciting to hear that he's got skillshare videos up, since he's a brilliant teacher!
As someone who is (trying to be) a writer … I wish I had your ability to step back from a story and see what would raise the stakes and made it not mediocre. I know you’ve been taking lots of online courses to get there but dang … I wish I could see these kinds of things in my own work 😂. It would simplify matters.
I originally set out to write ya fantasy, but my tastes have matured a lot. What really made me fall out of love with ya as a category is the abysmal lack of world building, three dimensional characters and meaningful relationships. YA rarely utilizes its potential, instead tries to chase after as many popular tropes it can have. I slowly stopped reading ya books because it became the equivalent of eating unflavored jello. It’s bland, it’s tasteless, it doesn’t try to be something different. I know there’s better authors in this category but as of now, ya fantasy is really the bottom of the barrel (to me).
As an aspiring writer, your videos are really helpful to me. I don’t think I’ll be setting out to write in YA fantasy because it doesn’t inspire me, but it’s good to hear what I should avoid. I have a question though. If a book features an immortal protagonist (because all my protagonists are non human, immortal beings) would it belong in New Adult or Adult or Young Adult section? That’s one thing I can’t understand.
Well, how can someone tell, if you didn't say anything about it. 😂😂😂😂
They are immortal, okay. Means it is fantasy I guess.
That's it. There's nothing more you can get out of it.
I don't understand the question. If you don't want to write YA of course it can't be Young adult. 😂😂
Teenies.
New adult is about young adults 18-25 and adults are adults. 😂
It depends on how old the characters are and where the main focus is.
You could have easily search the differences on the interent though.
This is really funny to me, because you literally speak about YA, that you don't like it etc. And than you ask about what young adult is.
So you read YA but you literally don't know what YA is. 😂
Maybe you should first learn the genres and subgenres and what they require and what defines them before writing a book.
If this is a spoiler, of how serious you take your research, I don't know how this book will be....
@alyssum130 wow so just because I don’t share spoilers about my own story, you sure got very pissy. What’s up your ass this morning
Just want to help a bit, your character's age isn't really matter compares to your audience target, mostly when it comes to immortal character. A character can be hundred years old vampire, but if the story centers around teenagers and is targeted towards teens, then it will be for teens. It def depends on your story, the target, and how the characters present themselves (did they present as adults or present as teens? Or even present as old people lol).
@salmaterserah5137 thank you! That’s something at least. My story probably isn’t targeted at teens, I think it’s gotta be new adult. Thanks for the help.
Honestly, I love writing fantasy, but my writing isn't good. I can acknowledge that. The world building isn't great and the cast of characters isn't very diverse because I'm in my anima bubble. That's why I'd never publish my work. Because guess what - you don't have to publish your writing. You can keep it to yourself. Especially if you're as sensitive about your writing as I am :D
I voraciously consume YA lit and it just makes me sad these days.
I might need recommendations of YA fantasy without smut because I'm THAT tired 😭😭😭
I know some people hated it, but in high school, this was what was TRUE "fae" (Shakespearean faeries) for me WAY before Sarah J Maas used fae to be something uglier and more boring. It's called Iron King by Julie Kagawa. It has a talking cat and one of the best characters to grace fantasy in my humble opinion, Puck. All the YA tropes in the mid-2010s BUT her world building was just...gorgeous. Still have yet to see anyone match her.
Mary Pearson's Vow of Thieves is also really well done.
I'm trying to write a ya fantasy right now....sigh
omg I'm reading snow like ash rn and I'm marking every single thing that is egregious or makes no sense or honestly gets on my nerves and I have so many sticky notes
reposting this comment because i accidentally posted it as a reply before 😂
ive been on a kick rewatching your old videos when this popped up, perfect timing!
Omg yay! glad you're here!!!
What also makes YA Fantasy feel so bland is because it’s so often the almost same base concepts, the same tropes, the same cliché romance, same supernatural beings, etc.
Especially the last one is getting old, at least for me right now. So in my current project I take a deep dive into japanese mythology, because I think that’s underutilised outside of manga and anime (and my new obsession additionally to greek mythology). I can only remember reading one Fantasy trilogy based on japanese mythology, and when I searched for more, the results were mostly more textbook-like explanations of Japanese creatures and myths, which was disappointing. Especially cause I‘m already reading some of those for research 😂
I liked Snow like Ashes when I read it haha. It also has the funniest book dedication ever.
You and mariness making my year as always. Bless
Mad respect for authors that try crazy shit in stories and don't stick the landing.
Your "rewrite" is soooo much better. You really should write THAT book.
The YA genre has many options for enjoyable reads. It's always sad when a book doesn't meet expectations.
Oh for sure. There’s tons of great YA fantasy books! I’m just talking about the subjective sub category of ya fantasy books I found to be mediocre. But most of my top favorite books are ya fantasy books. I mentioned Raybearer by Jordan Ifueko at the end but other favorites are Kingdom of Souls by Rena Barron, Furyborn by Claire Legrand, and An Ember in the Ashes by Sabaa Tahir. All five stars!
Do you have recs? Everything seems to be recommending what TikTok girlies want anymore, and they have lost my trust, ngl
THIS 👏👏👏
I thought I was going insane being the only one who thought like this.
16:15 that would have been a better fit. Imagine the possibilities it could hold to have a more shocking reveal, that author showed their full hand way too soon. Imagine dreaming or seeing symbols in her life that remind her of the incident.
A clanging of keys, the enveloping of snow, a burning candle falling over, anything!!
No one in history has just locked people they didn’t like into a room en masse
I was going to ask what YA fantasies you would recommend that accomplished the plot beats your were discussing. And you recommended Raybearer, which is probably my fave YA fantasy right now. I notice a lot of comments complained that the romance aspects took over in mediocre YA books, and the authors let the plot and flow suffer. In comparison, because Raybearer had a solid plot and solid worldbuilding, and the conflict between her and her love interest was related to the plot, the romance never got in the way and was interwoven well with the plot. If the Raybearer's love interest had been a platonic friend, the plot would have still flowed the same. I also expected Raybearer to have a love triangle, but it did not. So I also recommend that book, which is part of a duology. Plus, the couple's romance is cute, outside of the conflict.
Fellow raybearer fan! YESSSS ALL OF THIS.
I should really film a full review of raybearer
Raybearer is a nearly perfect YA fantasy. So good omg.
Damn, I watch a lot of videos promoting Skill Share, but yours is the video that finally got me.
i LOVE how you do your skillshare sponsorships! it always feels like such an integral part of the video because you often reference back to a course that helped you craft your review
"caravale is not mediocre, it's bad" slay. i've never read it and never will
I'm finally planning out my book this year so this video is really going to help me tbh
I’m so glad!! ❤
I just hate the prevalence of love triangles, they aren't interesting, even when I was the correct age for YA it annoyed me so I moved on from it very quickly.
Are…are we all into Sleep Token? I feel like a lot of people I watch lately have been all on them and I’m like HELL YEAH BUT ALSO….but it all makes sense cause they truly do make me FEEL
This is how I feel about Fourth Wing (even though it's not YA). The characters talk like ever-day modern college students, the story and characters are generic and unremarkable and the long I read it the more bored I became, and even though it had a structure and the plot flowed well, it was just the food equivalent of an unsalted piece of cooked chicken. It's mostly popular the same way some people will watch a movie just because it has their favorite actor in it and because it's so easy and familiar. THe entire time my brain was itching for something to ponder, something to be excited to find out or anticipate, but everything was just so bland and I knew more or less from the start how a lot of stuff would play out before it even happened. It also has one of my biggest pet peeves of being sold as enemies-to-lovers and having a morally-gray or villain-type love interest when the only shades of gray on his person are the tattoos on his ethnically ambiguous tan and toned body. The only bad thing he does is tell Violet he's going to kill her, and the other character who threatened that, Jack, actually made any actual attempts. Romantasy girlies just want a character that feels like a villain without him actually doing anything morally questionable.
This sort of plot is a pet peeve of mine, so rant incoming. I wish there was more actual fantasy dystopia, where the world building is properly explored. It used to be 'too much world-building' was often the fantasy problem, but with the rise of romantasy, that's secondary to 'world-building took a back seat to shipping'.
I also want to see a speculative fiction revolution where the rebels/revolutionaries aren't annoyed just because the current monarch is bad, but because they don't want to live in a hereditary autocracy - probably an imperialistic one, too- and the current monarch has just tipped a situation over the edge. A revolution that wants to overthrow the status quo because the problems were inherent in the system is a lot more realistic, and it's often economic catastrophe rather than only despotic behaviour that ferments revolution. This book is set in fantasy Imperial Russia, so maybe the author should have looked into why the last Tsar got deposed, but Stalin didn't. But that's a complex question with a very complex, multifaceted answer and this book is a mediocre vehicle for a love-triangle and not an attempt at social critique, or actually writing 'Russian Revolution... with magic' so of course nothing like that was thought about.
Often in these stories the answer to the 'bad monarch' is to replace them with a 'good monarch' who is often a relative of the first, which makes it feel more like a coup than revolution. This is the 'Lion King' solution, or the 'Snow White' solution... In real life, the autocrats that take over after revolutions, regardless of what ideals they initially aspired to, usually end up as despots, and are rarely directly connected to whoever was overthrown. Also, Revolutions tend to have ideals beyond just 'get rid of the current leader'. Communism doesn't have to exist in her world, but some ideal amongst her revolutionaries for what a better world should look like ought to! I get the feeling that Prince Anton in this is going to end up the new leader in a sequel...
Also, where are the fantasy democracies? Where are OTHER forms of fantasy power-structures? I feel like the whole genre is stuck in a mixture of fairy tales and Tolkien high fantasy, and a genre that by definition should allow for very broad imagination doesn't use that, in a way that science-fiction does more frequently. This is weird because other than swapping magic for technology, and alien worlds for mystical ones, it's the same core concepts of speculative fiction.
But all of that will deter from the love triangle though!!! We need 400 pages of tropey cringe writing of enemies to lovers/s
Thank you for actually suggesting good skillshare courses cause I have been wanting to learn more from them
I’m happy to! I’ve learned quite a lot from using them, personally.
My answer is that I found the first grisha book so underwhelming back when it first came out that I quit reading the entire YA genre lmao. I don’t know if it was that particular book and love triangle or if it was simply the last straw on the camel’s back after reading a lot of much worse examples.
ETA: I will say that these days my lack of reading YA is partly due to time - iirc I’ve put a few on the to read list if my mom specifically recommends them to me, and just failed to get around to them.
Ohhhh my godddd how you felt about Burning Glass is exactly how I felt about Powerless by Lauren Roberts. It’s blowing up on goodreads with so many 5 star ratings and I don’t get it. A deep dark frustration settled in my soul when I finished that book.
Oh no. I’m reading that one soon 🫠
I think another huge problem with modern books is that many of them lack internal consistency. Characters motivations don’t match their actions or change from one scene to the next with no explanation. Characters described to be super powerful in one scene are overpowered in two seconds the next. A skill is supposed rlly difficult and takes years to learn but the protagonist masters it in a month at most. An object or worldbuilding device is said to be super useful or important in the beginning of the story and then never comes up again. A fantasy object supposedly has one specific use but then is used in a completely different way with no explanation…probably more examples but u get the idea
not really related to anything per se, but you really remind me of the family friend who babysat me as a kid, and who encouraged me to write my (admittedly terrible) stories while i stayed at her house, using her microsoft word. now i'm here, trying to dip my toes into Actual Professional Writing because i have a story and an idea, and listening to your videos in the background feels like falling into bed after a long day. that is to say, i'm a big fan and i love when you post analysis and videos like this that go over the state of the industry.
tbh mediocrity is like an industry wide issue rn. It's what kinda put me off reading anything new because its just a giant coin flip on whether the book ACTUALLY feels like it got any editing to be a good story
Oh for sure, I’m doing separate videos about this in different genres and age ranges.
One genre this happens to me a lot in is thrillers (specifically ones that don’t utilize supernatural elements). I can’t even count the amount of thrillers I’ve DNFed in the last two years at this point because they don’t differentiate themselves from each other. It feels like deja vu.
The free trial is going to help me write a comic for my uni project, thank you!! 🖤
I’m so glad!! I hope it goes well.