Is Linus Trolling The Linux Community?
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- Опубліковано 25 лис 2021
- Linus and Luke (from Linus Tech Tips) recently published video number two of their "Linux gaming challenge". In this video, both men had some complaints about their Linux experience so far. Linus, in particular, had a lot of negative things to say. Here are some of my thoughts on their video.
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I don't think Linus is an advocate of any particular OS, Windows is just what he's used to. He has recently been rather harsh on Windows 11 as well, I believe he's mostly just an advocate of an easy, intuitive user experience in any context.
@ThisIsMyRealNameSrs A brilliant and well reasoned retort.
@ThisIsMyRealNameSrs lol watch the video on windows 11 from this week dude
I fully agree as someone who has only seen a few videos. LTT is an advocate for a streamlined experience, easy of use, functionality that any type of user can use, stuff being up-to-date, stuff getting fixed that need to be fixed, and the creation of software/hardware/drivers that are needed for a great experience. I got all of this from his Linux gaming-streamer challenge videos.
No. Given that LTT has covered Linux before, Linus has messed with more OSs than just Windows, given that they went about solving their problems in the jankiest possible ways. This was a hatchet job. It was rage baiting and they're not even done yet.
@ThisIsMyRealNameSrs Would a fanboy be willing to ditch Windows for a month and be willing to not only learn the ropes of Linux, but actually do real troubleshooting and work through the pain that comes with switching rather than chickening out? Linus and Luke haven't chickened out yet.
I don't understand why you and many other die-hard Linux users understand this kind of commentary as "blaming Linux" or whatever else. The aim of this challenge is to document the experience they've had using the system, not to put a blame on anyone. The real point of interest is: *that's* what the experience was, not "who's at fault."
When I say "I don't use Linux because I have many video games that don't run well on my hardware with Linux" it's not me saying I expect Linus Torvalds to get out of his way and help me or suggesting the distro I use is bad. I'm just describing my personal experience. Whether a fault of Linux or not, this kind of software environment won't suit everyone, and that's more important.
And yes, he did a couple of silly things in this series so far already, but they're not super unreasonable for a novice Linux user to do and they are likely things an inexperienced user could do. To suggest he's trolling just because of that is absurd.
I think the problem is not at all about documenting, but in the way that it is considered Linux fault in some ways. Also, I think the tone seeming condescending is not helping. But I see your point, I just don't think it does justice to the " Linux as a beginner " concept. ^^
@Chris Idema You don't need to be in a Linux cult to understand that the design of a website isn't the issue of the operating system you're using. Just as one example. Now I ask you how is your cult called? Ignorance? (btw I wrote this comment on my fancy win10 Pro computer and I didn't catch fire!)
This react video reveals the main problem the Linux community has when it comes to attracting Windows users.
According to the Linux community every useability and UX "complaint" a Windows user has is "not legit".
They all have forgotten the struggle they went through learning how to use Linux. And for some reason they dont want to make it easier for people to get into Linux - yet they want people to drop windows and use Linux. ROFL
Linux community in general is pretty toxic. The entire community is based around programmers, people whose magic words are "it works on my machine"
Programmers simply put can't think of the users, that's why when they see things like a complete noob not knowing that different package managers work differently they simply dismiss it as "trolling". There's really no need to have 16 different ways to install something, you really only need 1 good way to install stuff
Honestly, I don't see anything that Linus did to be unreasonable. As a matter of fact, Linus is the perfect representation of a Windows immigrant. The fact that the Linux community attempts to blame him for Linux's shortfall (like that time apt destroyed his install) is just proof of how toxic the community is
Yup and this video is a Prime example of The toxicity of the Linux community.
For Linux to go mainstream, it has to work 90%, assume zero knowledge from the user, and do 99% of tasks in the GUI.
@@yvesbeilher637 Once Linux goes mainstream, it will turn into Windows (or, most likely, MacOS) ... and there goes "Linux is free, as in free beer and free speech" ..
That is hell. Baby Linux will be created, but it won't be adopted by the real users.
@@yvesbeilher637 lol keep copium. That's why linux won't compete with windows because people like you. Most of pc users are from windows and most people in linux comes from windows. If you keep gatekeeping linux and act like it's only for nerds, linux will be forgotten one day.
@@yvesbeilher637 That's not true. I've been wanting to jump ship to Linux for the longest time now. I've fired up more vm's testing numerous distros than I could count at this point. (Currently, I'd say my favorite has been Fedora with a KDE environment just for it's simplicity.)
As an OPERATING SYSTEM, I think Linux is just better than Windows. It feels far more stable to me and I'd say it's actually rather intuitive as there are so many distros to choose from on top of a plethora of even more customization options that you could quite literally tailor your Linux experience to anything you'd ever want. And, while first learning how exactly Linux works can be hard to wrap your head around at first, I think overall it is a learnable experience when you simplify how things actually operate. (For instance, you know DIY Linux distros? Well, that ESSENTIALLY is just copying and pasting text from a wiki to install everything. It's basically what an installation of Windows does behind the scenes. The only difference is by having it automated or doing it by hand.)
I use my computer for basic web browsing and gaming, and while I do think Linux as an OS is more intuitive, the fact that it's functionality just does not fully support applications/games has been the one thing that has kept me from switching. (Even games that supposedly have a "Gold Rating" on ProtonDB. You usually are giving up some caveats even with such a rating. Usually it involving the multiplayer and anti-cheat. And that's only counting STEAM, other game distributions are an entirely different can of worms.)
Sure, if my gaming library was different and I only played games that ran on Linux flawless, I would have no excuse. But, I just don't have that, nor SHOULD ANYONE have to do that.
Yes, to some Linux would really be the better option. To some, everything they use on windows, works just fine on Linux. And because of that, they might as well just jump ship to cut the telemetry from Microsoft. But to others, that just isn't the case at the moment. And the thing is, I think the main problem due to this is that Linux ISN'T mainstream. It's not "good as it is." It could be so much better if the market share of Linux was higher. More native applications, patches to run non-native apps and games, etc. People trying to gatekeep Linux and then complaining about the "year of Linux" meme are the problem as to why it's development is frankly just so slow.
While I don't think Linux will ever be a Windows killer, one day, I do think Linux will be able to basically be indistinguishable from Windows in terms of being able to run programs. But getting to that day is just going to stay at a snails pace if the Linux community doesn't evolve to get more backers.
The truth is, most people are going to want a seamless experience. And Linux just isn't there yet for EVERYONE. It is for SOME, but not EVERYONE. (Or even the majority for that matter.) And with Linux making up such a small amount of the market share, less adopters is just going to make big companies not even bother helping their applications have ease of access with Linux.
So yes, I welcome Linux becoming more mainstream. That away, faster progress can be made, and I can finally be able to switch and not have to worry about a game I love not even opening.
That Windows users need/have "zero knowledge" is simply wrong. The only difference is that Windows has near 80% market share on the desktop, hence everyone knows somebody who can help. Every basic computer course is about Windows, every Grandma has a grandchild who fixes her Windows, ... etc. That's all implicit knowledge transfer!
If you put a "zero knowledge" user in front of a PC and tell them to install and use Windows completely on their own they will fail just as miserably as with any other OS.
my man really just came out with "play different games" as a solution to gaming on linux
try to run garageband or any other mac exclusives, probably wouldn’t work out well 😁✨ no one walks up to microsoft and complains to them as to why they can’t play bloodborne on their xbox (i mean, some might 😌🍷)
That's the solution if you want to play a PlayStation game and you have an Xbox
@@sekivt So we should stop considering linux owners as pc owners? When we say "PC master race" we're refering to windows owners only? Cool.
@@jamzbraz technically if we go by the first definition i found online, macs are also pcs, so...
no, we should not stop considering linux users as pc owners but we should consider mac owners as pc owners aswell ^-^
mac is just a fancy term for apple pcs (and the first part of mac 'n cheese 😋)
Bro Linus isn't a freaking devs to debug the code. If you encounter bugs in your game, would you open the codes and debug yourself?
You're making a big mistake treating LTT as if he's reviewing a Linux distro, instead of showcasing what kind of problems someone who's moving away from Windows could get into.
The purpose of this series is to show Distro developers what they should fix/change to make their distro more beginner friendly, not just bash on Linux in general.
these are common issues related to the kernel or the core of the distribution that the final distro is based on. No sane person expects its developers to change thisese.The purpose of distros in the first place is so that you can hop between them to find somethng you like, not to bash on the developers for not making a "user friendly" OS, which was built on top of a OS never meant to be user friendly....
@@abidulla4638 Every os SHOULD be meant to be user friendly. It will be used by users not robots. Even with having advanced flexibility it still should be user friendly as much as possible
@@abidulla4638 a kernel can be user friendly? or i misinterpreted your statement? i did think what people interact to are programs, either console based or gui based, so what does the kernel do in this disscusion? how can a kernel be user friendly if it's pourpose isn't that, instead is to allow programs to run, wich them can be user friendly
@@klanowicz Even if they aren't user friendly, they should at least be honest about it....
He acts like Linux is easy and great and everything he does is "common sense"
@@klanowicz advanced flexibility contrasts with ease of use almost always. a barebone linux distribution, used on HPC computers or FreeBSD used for NAS and high performance servers allow for maximum flexibility and are very hard to grasp for normal users because of how minimal they are. of course things like puppy linux or alpine exist, which aim to provide good experience on very slow computers, but they are NOT easy to use when you dive deep into them, like all Linux distros. There is no silver bullet OS that is both easy to grasp as a frontend (GUI) and backend (kernel) at the same time. Windows and Darwin (mac) lock you out of the backend parts, while Linux is famous for having a sucky frontend interface which requires immense customization to function and / or look nice. Of course, everyone aims to be "user friendly", but at some point a developer has to pick sides: do they want something a noob can install and not have to worry about maintaining it (which makes it bloated) or a workstation OS that works and is suitable for professional use. You can never have both. there will always be compromises
I've watched Linus for quite a while. I never would consider him a "Windows fanboy". It seems like the standard being used is "if they don't hate Microsoft and Windows, then they're fanboys".
if you don't hate Windows at this point you have Stockholms syndrome
@@impersonator4439 - To be fair, I'd argue that something like Stockholm syndrome occurs far more often, in far more domains, than most people would be willing to acknowledge.
@@impersonator4439 Nah, I hate Linux and Windows too. Compiling your own perfect kernel, code compiler, and make your own hardware with your own firmware and all that for you and only for you just like TempleOS is the bare minimum acceptable standard for exclusion of Stockholm syndrome.
@@chrinaldi The correct response to the stupidity produced by @Andreas Persson.
Windows Fanboy in the context that he centralizes himself in Winland.
Nothing more implied I think.
As a Linux enthusiast who runs Gentoo, I find Linus and Luke's experience frustrating and painful. However, I fully agree and understand the point being made, until we as the Linux community can stand back and say ok maybe not everyone is going to get it straight away, and act accordingly, and actually help make the user experience better by helping noobs instead of roasting them, and Devs actually get it together with ui, then people are not going to switch. People will look at videos like this and think that we're all just a bunch of a holes, and just go back to windows. I really like some of your content, but I really think you missed the point here
Hi Gentoo mate :)
@@BruceCarbonLakeriver Hello fellow masochist
Thank you for your wise words. The biggest obstacle on Linux ever getting real foothold among average users is the way too big ego of the "it is the Linux way" preaching developers.
When Windows 10/11 came out I said it's time to make a break from Windows.
Unfortunately for gaming and working remotely it's still not an option. I still remember my friends firing up Gentoo in the basement in 2002 and it not recognizing things like CD drives. Recompile. Change an option. Recompile. I have a throwaway laptop running Garuda that I really enjoy, it's just not ready to be a daily driver.
Everyone complains about Linux support but no one wants to pay for Linux support.
7:00 Actually simple script that would spit out something like "APT is for Debian based distros, use pacman or pamac instead" aliased as apt, apt-get (and maybe other popular package managers) is not a bad idea. Remember, we're talking about entry level distros which users will make such a stupid, simple mistake. Don't RTFM Linus, he kinda has the point
It'd be a lot of work. We can't just make it for apt. We'd have to make aliases for every package manager out there to reference to itself if it detects a call to the others. But the user can't do a simple Google search upon seeing an error message.
@@sayannandy876 There are like 4-5 popular package managers for desktop Linux. Apt for Debian family, dnf for red hat, pacman for arch, and eopkg for solus. Any other is really obscure one, and if is familiar for you, you don't really need help
@@sayannandy876 You don't even need a script for that, you could even alias apt, dnf and eopkg as 'echo "use pacman instead"'
Could easily break "command -v apt" or similar.
Maybe a bash alias would be better.
I loved the second part to his challenge because he goes after Nvidia and other major companies for not supporting Linux sufficiently causing all of the issues in the video. Hopefully, the size of his channel complaining about that lights a small fire under those companies' feet.
It won't
If he would actually stick to linux and try to force the chance yeah maybe but as a temporary thing nah i doubt a change will occur
@@pappo666 nah that won't get them to support Linux either - Only a big increase in market share will move them
I think it would at least make the companies more willing to discuss the need of Linux support. It will - however - encourage people to fill in the holes left by companies who refuse to support Linux - even if it means that reverse-engineering and/or getting ahold of proprietary source code gets involved in the process. But regardless, LTT's challenge will undoubtedly encourage more people to become Linux developers.
*cough* Gabe Newell *cough*
“An idiot admires complexity, a genius admires simplicity, a physicist tries to make it simple, for an idiot anything the more complicated it is the more he will admire it, if you make something so clusterfucked he can't understand it he's gonna think you're a god cause you made it so complicated nobody can understand it. That's how they write journals in Academics, they try to make it so complicated people think you're a genius”
― Terry Davis, Creator of Temple OS
i miss him
i miss him
i miss him
Him I miss
@@Harambe8 This is not a joking matter.
DT you were the reason I finally decided to take the leap to Linux. Although I've thoroughly enjoyed my experience so far and still enjoy your content, everything LTT are going through are the exact same issues I've encountered when I first made the switch.
I feel you are now so accustomed to Linux way of things to you it is "obvious" to go search for these things. This simply isn't a newbie way of thinking. Learning how to learn is one of the hardest tasks a beginner has to pick up and if they are not coming from a development background this simply just might escape them.
I do concede a lot of issues in Linux are due to the fact a lot of companies just do not give priority to creating drivers for Linux, however, that's because the majority of people use Windows and for those companies their bottom line is more affected by Windows users.
If we as a community really want to get improve the state of things we should try and get the majority to use Linux instead of Windows. We will not do that by trying to call legitimate complaints from newbies "trolling"/"making things up" just because they aren't thinking about things the way experienced Linux users might.
I wish he could listen to your valid points, but Linux is held back and gate-keeping by people like him...
I agree, I use both and understand them both well. I really do think that a big issue with Linux is the community, it's all so anti non-FOSS stuff that it's infuriating.
I remember when I asked on a forum a bit ago about how to use Ableton Live on Linux (hoping someone knew how to get wine to run it or something) the vast majority of replies were "Ableton sucks, use this alternative instead" or "this FOSS alternative is better" or "use windows in a VM" Which is useless because none of it answered the question I actually asked
And this applies to Windows as well. I sometimes ignore its many faults, because I have been using it for so long I just tune those issues out, know how to work around it etc.
@hugo
really?
It already is happening under WSL ( a.k.a. Microsoft )...
I think you should stop living inside a cave and start following the news... why not?... 😏
Btw, I love Linux more than your useless comments which do NOT help Linux and its true potential...
Have a nice day...
I've given computer help to people that just don't know very much, and from what I can tell, some people would be hopelessly lost if they tried to install Linux, so Linus' mistake really didn't seem unreasonable to me. Yeah, he's a computer guy, but he's a Windows computer guy, not Linux.
Having watched the whole Daily Linux Driver series that Linus made, that "trolling" comment made here came off as condescending to me, and could probably drive off some potential Linux users.
As a sysadmin who specialises in linux based environments, i agree with linus tbh. In a lot of the issues he has brought up i agree with you that they arent an issue of the operating system but they are still issues that users will experience regardless.
Most Linux usage problems for most users fall right in PEBKAC, and most problems are failure to google and if you don't want to google I am fine with saying don't use Linux. If windows blows a bluescreen and an error code I google it.
Linux main problem is that for a silly person like me that just wants to click install play without googling stuff for half hour see wich of the dozens of different 'flavours' of linux yours is and what 'flavor' of linux is based. (example linux mint is based on linux ubuntu wich is based on debian) That and in many cases u cant rly just click install on stuff and u have to resort to the terminal to even get anything done is what keeps majority of people from looking at linux with more confidence. It can be done, android and google proved just that. It just needs to be simple enough for everyone else to use. U shouldnt have to google basic stuff such as installing obs. Tried linux mint btw and im running it now on my old laptop for browsing and text editing. Works fine but i didnt have to use the terminal. It can be done it just needs more effort into simplifying things
@@johntilghman the problem is you are comparing errors, to installing a program. Yes, research on errors with windows or linux is fine. The problem is, in windows you can install programs without research. You need to research just to install programs on linux... That's the issue.
@@jkjkjkkjkjk I would agree to a point, there are MANY programs that can be installed in Linux just by clicking a button in a software center. But it is true that is not always the case. But I am one of those people who don't think it's a waste of my time to learn, is it quick and easy? no. But I am not afraid to say that maybe ALL people shouldn't use Linux. But it is getting a lot better than it was.
@@johntilghman i agree its getting better. I also agree its not a waste of time to learn complex systems. I think its just better to admit, it's getting better, but its not as good as it can get, yet. Hopefully one day soon.. i also think that although it's definitely not a waste of time to understand the complex parts of a system, linux would be better and get a larger user base if it allowed for users to get into deep custom tinkering, but also allowed for people who didn't have the ability/time/drive to research just to get basic installs/usage out of it... at least to start with, to open the doors to the linux world to them....and some linux OS out there are getting closer...
I think there is potential for both users, and i hope it one-day gets there.
But linux users taking it on the chin that the installs/basic use functions still needs some development/improvement, is better than the expectations that ALL users should need to do research to use it's basic functions, is my opinion.
The fact he wants to give SteamOS a chance, I don't think he's even close to a "windows fanboy". He's convenience oriented but not a fanboy.
He just like what is User-Friendly and intuitive, he doesn’t like Windows 11, doesn’t seem to agree on some Linux Distro.
@@paradox_monke7338 Agreed on that.
He's a "whoever pays him money to make a particular video" fanboy.
@@Gooberpatrol66 That complaint is so tired. One of his biggest sponsors is intel and he constantly shits on intel and makes positive videos about AMD.
@@Gooberpatrol66 tafuck? He's got sponsored by Intel and shit on it many times, countless times he goes against corporate bullshit, he's not a faboy, he wants to use the damn computer
The struggle I have with a lot of your takes here is that they haven't done research. For many linux users, this makes no sense sure. But for many average computer users (which they are trying to reflect in the challenge), they don't want to do research, they want it to just work.
This, right here, is the reason why the "year of the Linux desktop" will never come to be
Exactly. My fiance uses Mac and I use PC. My first experience using MacOS was on her laptop, and despite never using it before, I was able to get a grasp on everything pretty quickly, as I'm sure she would if she switched to Windows. Linux, not so much. I like Linux, but it is definitely a system designed BY software engineers, FOR software engineers
Fair statement. But how many average users know what Gnu Linux is about?
You're comparing multi billion dollar monopolized propriety (bloated spyware) operating system to a free and open source system run and developed by the community for everyone.
ua-cam.com/video/J1bBG1NtL18/v-deo.html
When i put my first foot in the linux pool, i knew i should study that operating system. I think the average PC user already doesn't care, so they would never bother. IF Linus put better content on Manjaro, on how to actually use the software instead of complain, it might actually be better.... but, i get it... he doesn't know how to use the software, BUT it usually doesn't stop them. Does linus actually know how to do a lot of the technical stuff that goes on in his studio? I ask this, because he has been quick to complain on something he CLEARLY doesn't know.
@@edstar83 Who cares about any of that if the software isn't easy to use?
Every other Linux channel I've watched has understood the point of the series, and given answers to the problems they've had without acting like a know-it-all. But of course, DT had to play the arch user role. Linux has a lot of problems, and the best thing we can do is accept it, and try to fix them
Yea DT is so far out of touch with the average user that it's embarrassing to watch this video.
@@tekelupharsin4426 I stopped watching DT because of his attitude, and only came back to watch this video because I'm interested in what other linux users would think of the challenge, and honestly I'm not surprised this was his reaction.
Funnily enough, I know a few linux users who hate Linus, they can't stand the guy, but really liked the challenge videos
@@UntrackedEndorphins Do you really think it makes any sense to migrate to Linux if you are a gamer and streamer? Sure if you also free software movement etc but in that case those aspects should be in focus of the challenge.
Now it absolutely doesn't make any sense. It's only going to give problems in the first month's time.
If you can logically explain why this challenge is a good thing, then please do so and I will change my mind.
You only migrate to Linux with other reasons in mind. And those reasons need to be highlighted, or this video series could just declare Linux as bad. As it certainly won't beat Windows on Windows gaming and doing Windowsy tasks.
Obviously I think even bad publicity might be beneficial on the long term.
@I Sleep Every other Linux channel are so into getting publicity that they are not pointing out the obvious issues with the challenge.
It makes no sense for anyone to migrate to Linux for playing Windows games and to stream. That's going to be horrible time.
The only reason one would migrate to Linux is something that Linux is better or because of supporting free software ideology.
Gaming is great, as that allows you to not use Windows at all, and it allows more migration from those gamers who want to migrate to Linux for other reasons but who also want to play games.
Unless the real reasons for migration are not addressed, this challenge really makes no sense and DT is the one with balls to say it out loud.
I would have wanted to love this challenge, but it really doesn't make sense. But even bad publicity is better than nothing, so in that sense I'm slightly feeling positive about this series, but the challenge still doesn't make sense.
@@juzujuzu4555 there's people who exclusively game on Linux, and with the upcoming support Linux will have because of Valve, yes it does make sense. And I don't care about changing your mind, this isn't reddit kid
DT i am a fan of this channel, and i watch it all the time. I feel that the critiques and issues that Linus has with Linux is justified. Linus is approaching the challenge from the point of view as a total noob, and things like the script, and the apt issues can be a lot more noob friendly.
If we want wide adoption of Linux, we CANNOT and SHOULD NOT have the approach that there is any "BASIC" information that someone should know before they install Linux. I think that attitudes like that are what makes people think that all Linux users are elitists and not noob friendly, and make them not willing to try a new OS that they are already intimidated by.
Linux has the massive hurdle of it is not the average persons first OS they have used, or even choose. So we (Linux) need to be way better platform operationally and in the UX realm than Windows / Mac / etc, but we also need to essentially make it so noob proof that it guides new users to the correct tools if they want to do something. Realistically how hard would it be for a distro creator to make it point to Pacman if they typed in Apt? or even create a warning that popped up saying "This distribution doesn't use APT, please use Pacman to install packages"?
I feel that some people in the Linux community have the idea that the people essentially need to conform to Linux, when really Linux needs to conform to the people (including noobs), after all isn't that a big selling point of Linux, that it is so customisable?
Then why Linus is using the CLI a his first way to install something? Why doesn't he Google stuff like any sane person would? Why isn't he using the graphical installation software? Why is he using an Arch-based distro? Why he never updated his system? Nothing of what I listed is "new Linux user" level, so why are you all vouching for Linus "purity" in all this when it is obvious he is trying hard to derail his experience? Luke is doing it the proper way and is what 90% of new Linux user will experience if they switch from Windows.
@@Traumatree True, the only thing that i critique from the competition is the distro from Linus, but then again i don't know if the focus on gaming is the thing that changed the distro selection, but my mother uses Ubuntu at home and know at work. Why didn't he started with that?? PopOS is also a gaming distro and they are based on that flavor of Linux, so I just don't get it.
If you want to develop / design a user- and beginner-friendly Linux version, the first thing you have to do is not to ask the users to type any commands into any command prompt. - There are very few people out there who want to use their PC the way they did in the days of DOS.
@@Traumatree Because pop os crapped out and he heard arch linux was good.
@@Traumatree Why would the average person first switching on a Linux machine know anything about the things you just listed?
Windows, MacOS, Android all hand-hold new users and provide a safty net, it isn't impossible for Linux to do that to.
If you google how to do anything in Linux you are unlikely to not get a command-line answer! That's the problem for a lot of potential new users.
I think Linus makes some good points, albeit snarkily. Its easy as a seasoned Linux user to understand the differences between distros and package managers, but coming from an OS like Windows or MacOS where installing a program is as easy as downloading it, and double clicking it, you can't expect newer users to understand that different distros use different installers. To them its all Linux.
To your point about being able to Google the issue, well, that's true of literally everything. It doesn't change the fact that its not an intuitive system
Yep. If you can type a command and it will suggest a package that is missing... It can inform you that your trying to use the wrong package manager. Also hardware support is still trash for peripherals and audio devices. "It's not Linux fault" but it is the hardware manufacturers fault and they need to step it up. I am hoping as the steam deck is released it will wake up Logitech, and others and make them officially support Linux.
Came to say this. Linus is coming into the challenge as a newbie would. How would a newbie know that Linux distros use different package managers? To a non-user of Linux, the last thing that they will think is that such a base level thing is so different between distros.
Not sure why he calls it basic knowledge - according to who? Sure, maybe basic knowledge to seasoned Linux users, but not something that someone that is just starting Linux would know, much less know that they have to look it up and learn about it.
That’s the problem with Linux - a pointless amount of forks; each have their own different quirks and hoops to jump through. It’s never going to go mainstream this way - if even such a simple thing as installing a program requires a different way of doing it ,between distros, and specially if you need to “google it.” At that point, consider a new user nope-ing out of using Linux.
The problem is that Seasoned and Good MS Windows users/administrators do think they will be great at administrating Linux. They are not, and that is Linus a perfect example of.
I really don't think I could set up a MS Windows machine as fast and proper for gaming as he does. But he seams to think that he could manage a Linux machine as fast as I would do. He can't. Not even if it would have been about some strange distribution like the one that all "cool kids" on the block need to run to be considered cool and brags about it.
(No, it is not a complain about those that actually uses that distro and knows it, and don't brag about it. The are actually cool).
Just because you are good at MS Windows, doesn't make you good at Linux. And vice versa. And I don't think Linus have accepted that. Or he is trolling, which could be an explanation, but I don't think that.
Get gud Linus! Sheesh!
You're a seasoned Linux user? What flavor? Not too spicy I hope!
Short answer : No.
All the points in the LTT video showcased the growing pains most new Linux users face and not trolling.
Stop taking his opinion on linux as a personal attack.
Have you watched the video?
@@RT-. ...
@@flacjunkie5553 I'm saying that the video addresses his points, such as: it's not Linux's fault drivers aren't written for it, and it's not Linux's fault that Windows software wasn't made compatible by the developers, including games. Most of his complaints being that he can't reproduce his exact Windows workflow on Linux.. aren't really Linux's bugs or issues. Yes, there were some user experience issues, but were those major enough that they deserve the "Linux hates me 😠" headlines on his videos?
@@ikanfs3120 I don't think you get what I'm trying to say: most of the issues all these videos had were trying to run Windows only games or software through Linux. Native software and games run flawlessly (at least for me), and don't require any troubleshooting. **It's not Linux's fault Windows only products aren't made compatible with it, and it isn't WINE/Proton's duty to do that either.**
Thank you, I just wanted to say that. Linus doesn't care who's fault it is. He just says that thing didn't work, that's it.
> "It's rather simple and I don't know... it's not even a real complaint."
As someone who daily drives Linux and who is subscribed to you via your RSS feed from Odysee:
NO - it's simple *if you are used to it*. Linux is great, but it's not "simple" if you have to google how to do something. It should be intuitive even for a windows user, but you shouldn't *need* to google it.
> "At some point, you're running that operating system you need to know how that operating system works."
And this is why (I think) at this point, most people shouldn't use Linux - because they don't know how it works.
I'm not even watching beyond the 7-minute mark - I'm going to spend my UA-cam Premium time on a different channel that understands the problems Linus and Luke face and that is willing to take constructive criticism.
simple ≠ user friendly
What a one way to flex! Why would anyone use UA-cam Premium anyway.
@@FaranAiki people have to pay $10/month for services like Netflix, but UA-cam gives away their service for free. I see it in the same way I see supporting open source projects, but it just so happens that UA-cam isn't open source. Plus, other ways of downloading videos are against UA-cam's terms and conditions
@@johnw1787
I see.
I use Linux. I like Linux. I like tinkering with Linux.
However, I sometimes think the Linux community isn't nearly as intelligent as they believe they are. It really wasn't hard to understand the point of Linus's experiment.
The arrogance of open source communities really turns people off. Freedom to some of you might mean having complete control of your OS. Freedom to someone else might mean having an OS that just works so they can spend time doing something else.
Yes, it was difficult to understand.
hahaha loved that reality check line: many times nerds aren't as intelligent as they believe they are
@@furiousfellow1583 Yep, and at least Linux nerds manifest the stereotype of nerds being socially talentless.
@@TheSimoc 🤣
agreed
I understand that the “pacman” complaint seems unreasonable, but you have to understand that most users don’t differentiate between Linux distributions like you would differentiate Windows and Mac, like you said. For most, Linux is Linux and you would believe they are “build” the same when they are actually not. I had the same issue, and while is very simple to fix as you said, it is still a little “hiccup” people may find, specially when they are very new to Linux.
I do believe it would be a nice touch from developers to simply throw a warning saying that you need to use “this” command instead of “that” when using commands that do the same functionality between distros. What Linux needs desperately is accessibility and ease-of-use features if they really want to capture users from other OSs. This would be an example of a small but helpful change.
Why would I have to understand that? Everyone who comes to Linux with expectations that it's going to be like Windows is inevitably going to have a bad time. Just like anyone who is used to Linux is going to have a bad time if he has to use Windows and expects it to be like Linux.
Nobody has any understanding in the "Windows community" when I have problems installing and running programs on Windows. Nobody goes out of their way to accommodate me... So why is it expected that the "Linux community" accommodates newbies coming over from Windows, even to the point of changing how things work on Linux to be more similar to Windows (thus, more often than not, making Linux worse)?
If you decide to change your operating system, you have to do your research. It's not easy, it takes time and effort.
This, sure a lot of Linus' complaints weren't really linux's fault per say but they are none the less issues which impect the accessibility and ease of use of the platform as a whole. The point of the video series is not to judge the quality of Linux but to explore the viability of your average gamer switching to Linux. And at least from Linus' perspective the conclusion rightfully seems to be that for many people it would not be a good experience. More tech savvy viewers who are up for the challenge will likely realise this on their own and not be swayed by the short comings whereas those who really shouldn't be using Linux in its current state will stay away.
@ if the "linux community" and the user friendly distros want as many people as possible to use them, *they* have to do the research, *not the newcomer* . The average tech illiterate doesn't have programs that crash easily (browser, maybe a word processor), and because microsoft and apple poured in a lot of money into design and user friendliness, the need for community support isn't as important. In linux, everything is community support.
Also yes, linux is good after i researched everything, including problems, but after researching i know more about an OS' inner workings than an average tech illiterate in their lifetime. Even if it's absolute surface knowledge, not everyone needs to know even this much before being able to use their OS.
If you want the user to research it, then you should not want Linux distros to be mainstream.
what about a plugin for bash shell that makes this kind of error message show, and that would only be preinstalled on noob friendly disrtos? So the veterans can have a de bloated shell, but the new users can just have a plain sailing experience
I heard that when you try apt and apt-get in Garuda Linux you get the output for man pacman. I think this should be the default behavior for all non debian distros.
before you google the question "what is the package manager in manjaro" you require the prior knowledge that a package manager can be a thing at all
most guides on installing this and that softwares usually default to apt-get install whatever so on a UX perspective it's obviously a thing that can happen so there might be a simple fix to that somehow, it can be as simple as having CLI error message suggesting a noob-targeted wiki
Exactly. On VM Ubuntu I tried to install an app that didn't exist and apt told me there were other similar app names. I was thankful for that!
@@theodorealenas3171 Ya, but that is an apt feature, not a bash feature. Bash simply can't do that equivalent with commands, it would require a complete overhaul on how it rejects commands, something that isn't even in the Linux purview.
I agree with most of Linus' complaints, but the bash will not have any feature like this any time soon
@@benruss4130 come on there just has to be a way. I hope if Linux changes to be accessible they make a very different terminal emulator that shows you options and hints in some corner.
@@theodorealenas3171 There definitely is a way, the Distro developers could VERY easily put responses to 'incorrect' commands like sudo apt-get. In fact, it would take one line in the bash config file. What would be even better than that (or good along side that) though would be a little skip-able intro to the operating system on fist install that covers basic stuff like CLI package management.
Most install guides specify which installer is for which distro. Also you don't have to google anything with package manager as the keyword. "Install program menjaro" leads you straight to a page describing pacman
As much as I like DT, I have to admit that this was an uncharacteristically subpar video.
Garuda Linux actually tackled the "apt install" problem with a simple yet powerful "alias apt='man pacman' " solution. Pretty clever.
lol its a dumbass solution just use pacman
little tweaks like that are what will help noobs learn linux, not reactions like this video. He acts like such an arrogant prick in this video.
Haha good one 😅
Sneaky :D
Honestly, you're taking this extremely personally. Why do you keep talking about "blame"? If, say, things don't work on Linux because of proprietary hardware, it's not about who's to blame, but it's still a genuine problem that people need to know about that's detrimental to a person's experience who's considering switching.
How can you tell Linus he needs to calm down before making a video the next time when you're here making ominous statements like "we from the open source community don't like to be treated unfairly" and "you're coming after us" and "you've almost pushed it to the boundary and you need to be careful" and "we just might respond in a big way"? "Hell hath no fury like the Linux community." Right, you're just doing him a favor by warning him, it's absolutely not that you're personally pissed off to the point where I can hear it in your voice.
[I honestly don't know why my comment keeps disappearing. This is the third time I'm posting it. I'm going to *assume* that DT is not actually just sitting here manually deleting it just because it's critical of him. But I've never had this happen before. Trying again...]
Like, you're coming at this like a typical Linux expert, wondering why this idiot Linus just doesn't know more about Linux. Why isn't he simply a Linux expert like you? Then he wouldn't have any problems! Why doesn't he just know exactly which package manager works for which distro and that some instructions work only for some distros and not others? Why doesn't he simply know what peripherals he should and shouldn't buy, and understand how to run arcane scripts off Github to get stuff working?
These are very real issues. Some of them are a problem with the way Linux distros are developed, some of them are just a sad reality of lack of support from vendors. But either way they're things people will be dealing with when they switch, and it's 100% fair that Linus is bringing them to light. That's not treating the Linux community unfairly, it's just... how things are.
That said I do think he can and should be a bit more fair to Linux, and I think he should probably have done a bit better than he did given how long he's personally been using computers, but any sufficiently naive user will absolutely run into these things, especially when they go down the rabbit hole of googling for solutions that involve the command line, and your reaction here is way, way over the top.
You need to chill bruh
The problem with how Linus phrases things is that he says: "The GoXLR device I bought doesn't work correctly on Linux! The Linux community needs to do better than that!!!"
For almost every driver issue he has he says "the Linux community must do better" but the Linux community *can't* do better, because driver development is the manufacturer's job! The fact that there are so many handwritten Linux drivers for things manufacturers didn't bother to release a driver for is a point of praise for the independent, unpaid developers of these open source drivers (like the ps4 controller driver, the k10temp driver, etc).
@@helloitismetomato Do you want me to start complaining about corsair products (peripherals) not working well on cheap windows desktops? or that most "gamer" stuffs don't work on mac?
Well I can but if you're a linux or a mac user, then you are not the target audience of those devices, and those complaints deserve to go on /dev/null (you're supposed to do suggestions or requests, not complaints if you don't have that kind of ego like his)
When you're using ANYTHING, you proceed with caution right? You read all the manuals, make sure you use the manufacturer charger, and all the other assumptions to make sure you don't break anything. Linus doesn't do that, and instead insists that all his random shenenigans work flawlessly in linux, and that's unfair. I can do the same exact thing on a mac, and I would be just as unfair.
@@insu_na he's not blaming Linux devs, he's just documenting his struggles. He's frustrated at the experience and that doesn't mean he's blaming Linux devs. The goxlr part was frustration at the state of the industry, the script bit was frustration with how github assumes you're a developer even though non-devs need to use it
Most of the things Linus has "problems" with (regardless of the reason for it) are things that "the masses" will encounter when they install "Linux" based on reccomendation or out of curiosity and test it out.
The things he points out are things that Either the manufacturer of a product or the developers for different things could do to make Linux more accessible for random normal people.
It might seem dumb what mistakes he makes but i assure you that most people expect some level of handholding from the OS.
He is basically showcasing what the average "dumb user" will run into to shed light onto things that could be improved.
And the thing about "you should know" is that cases where it applies are exactly the cases that normal people need to be told what the Norm is so they can understand.
No normal random Person is going to think about searching the Internet what package manager he should use if he doesnt even know what a package manager is. Its good to explain errors when they happen so average people can understand them too.
Today we live in an era where we get bombarded with information Form all sides so the ability to try and research problems gets lost more and more. To compensate we put information in spots where they are needed, not central libraries anymore.
If an average Person used to that lifestyle encounters the "you should have known" he will just walk away and use what 'he knows' and thats not going to be Linux then.
For Linux to become more popular so we can get the manufacturer support we all want, we need to Start and make the user experience "normal" enough so that enough people are not instantly turned away the second they have a basic problems.
Try to install, configure and run without problems Windows assuming you have never used it before. It's pure hell. Also if you buy laptop with preinstalled Linux, it's going to work like a charm.
He is unfair to Linux as the way he is looking the whole thing is unfair. Trying to install Linux on custom PC with lots of esoteric hardware, for the purpose of running Windows games on it, with using the Windows paradigms, it's certainly going to be hard as phuck.
This challenge would make sense if it continued for a year. You get all the problems and issues based on you not knowing things happens in the beginning, and that period takes many many months. Also gaming is simply the most idiotic thing to do on the challenge because there is simply no possibility for Linux giving any additional benefits for running Windows software.
Longer time would at least give some benefits through it being stable and not giving a shit, there being much better updating system etc.
This challenge seems like designed to attack Linux just before Valve releases Steam Deck and SteamOS and tries to get people migrate from Windows to Linux. Because based on the things I already stated, among many others, there is no logical motive other than trying to show how much better Windows is. As for the esoteric hardware and gaming, especially at this point when Valve's kernel updates and other stability, compatibility, performance updates are not yet ready.
The only thing I'm claiming is that this challenge is stupid. It would have been much better if it were between employees of the LTT who are not so busy, and who might actually enjoy learning new things, and who could continue this challenge for at least couple of months. Perhaps even continuing it for as long as there are people continuing the race, only letting the competition to stop in a year. And different prices for the people who dropped at different places.
Linux cannot be made more normal. It could be made more bug free, desktop environments could be made more intuitive, there could be better guides and slightly better support, though I think support for the most used distros are pretty good. The main thing that gets people to switch back, and to not even try, is the fact that you absolutely need to learn new paradigms, lots of new things, basics of terminal if you plan to do anything but the basic usage of office, web, playing media.
The sad reality is that modern computers are just too fast for the performance related things to matter, Windows is now also stable and secure enough that those things matter for the most. So essentially Linux lost it's possibilities it had from the late 2000s till Windows 10. Sure lots of people quit Windows 10, but those that didn't got used to it, and were now even less likely to migrate.
If Valve builds great gaming OS and manages to get momentum on getting drivers up in shape, kernel updates that improve further compatibility and performance, it really can be huge next year and in 2023. But will non Steam games work good enough, that's something I don't know. But I see the possibility of Linux becoming good enough for gaming that Windows doesn't offer much more than Linux. That would get tons of people to Linux, and gamers are essential in spreading the knowledge, being the IT support people for their friends and family. So that's the next possibility, and if things do not work out right, then it's going to be a long long time before there's another chance.
The tone is the issue, not most of what he complains about. He sounds like a Karen to me, complaining that the free samples are too small, and I don't even daily drive a Linux desktop. If I was a Manjaro Dev, I'd laugh in his face and just tell him "k, bye".
@@watcheths this attitude is the problem with the Linux "community"
'windows way' and 'normal' are not synonims. i'm often completly lost on windows. i mean, how should i connect bt headphones, and swich audio output to it? why should i even 'switch audio', why not just connect bt headphones and listen to music, just like i i on my linux box? how cat i install anything? why should i have to go to all those diferent portals and download app individually? how can i even make sure that i install real app, and not some hacked version?
@@MediaRippers Why? What will we loose if we do not engage with an abrasive personality?
A lot of these responses are ignoring LTT’s goal with these videos. Answering the question: is Linux good for the average gamer in 2021. I think his videos are doing a good job at answering this question.
He’s not “making stuff up to pile on Linux”, he’s encountering and explaining the problems that an average user will have trying to game on Linux.
The average user should know how to use google to ask the question 'how to install a program on manjaro' The average user pauses before continuing when the OS screams 'WARNING: You are about to remove essential files' and you have to type a full sentence in order to proceed that states to do it anyway. Among many other things he went out of his way to make hard for himself.
@@fictitiousnightmares the average computer user does NOT know how to search for answers.
@@jonytube LOL. It's 2022. If they don't, that is a problem.
@@fictitiousnightmares even then, it's a Linux issue, if they don't know how to search for stuff but can somehow manage to run windows no problem, that means it is a better user experience on windows
@@DamianS78 Sure, if you like Trillion dollar corporations tracking and controlling what you do on your own computer for their own profit. It's a better user experience. And nobody has 'ran windows no problem.' Everyone has had a learning curve they went through, from installation to drivers, to getting certain programs or hardware working to learning how to do certain things. The majority of those people learn by, oh who would have guessed, searching for the answers! It's a user issue.
Funnily enough, I'm just about ready to switch my new laptop to a Linux distro since it comes with Windows 11, and what mostly pushed me towards it was Linus' video. I watched your recent video complaining about the new Ubuntu release, and decided to check out other videos. This video is just about as bad as you can get as a content creator.
First, I actually use powershell in windows frequently, but +90% of people will think you're trying to hack something if they see you using it. The fact that you think people should just naturally know what a shell is and how to use it is ridiculous.
Second, asking for user friendly error messages should be BASIC, as you put it. Saying that it's not a real complaint is highly pedantic. If I go up to someone who has only used android phones before, for example, and tell them to open a file in a windows pc that doesn't have a executable program associated to just immediately run it, then say ''Lol, how could you not know that you need this program to run it, or that this file doesn't natively open on this OS without this program", I would look, and feel, like a complete asshole. The fact that you can't just agree that trying to run the .deb in a non Debian distro should just come up with an error message saying "hey, this is for another pack manager, I use .xxx files" makes you just sound like an obnoxious gatekeeper.
Third, as most other people here in the comments have said, Linus' video is about transferring your existing workspace to Linux from Windows. The fact that you can't understand that the complaints he has is relative to this transferring process, is, again, appalling. If he had come to you to help him with this, you probably would've started telling him to use these other programs or whatnot since you might have actual knowledge for replicating his windows experience, as if he should've just known that, or that it wouldn't take probably tens of hours to find out what he should use by himself "just using Google" as you put it. How would a layman do this?
Last. the reason most people won't use Linux is GUI and user friendliness related, things Microsoft, Apple and Google have long capitalized on. To me, the most ironic thing is that you keep saying that you're the open-source community, yet most seem to refuse to be open to new, inexperienced and people that don't have the time or energy. Proprietary OS is made to be the most open to new people, and they're closed-source software makers. You use "hand-holding" as a negative term, to say that people should just find out themselves, while the actual market competitors have made things like plug and play a necessity to attract the most unskilled users. Yes, this bloats the OS, but payoff is that grandma can just take the webcam out of the package it came in, plug it in a usb port, open Zoom and be seen and heard by her family in the call. If it was to your liking, she would be 30 minutes into Google search results or a UA-cam video trying to find out what is happening.
I hope you never run into a situation where you don't have the time or resources to learn something that would be so critical as using a computer, and when you go to UA-cam or another more mainstream platform to find help, you find the equivalent of this video. You seem to be as out of touch with the general population as Bill Gates is to poor people.
I'm so tired about the Linux-Windows discussion. I use Windows 10 and 11 often, because I've these desktops and laptops from work. At home I use Linux distros. I don't care about the distro, because everything is in the cloud. I started with Knoppix many, many years ago. Now I only need data and I don't do video-editing or coding. So I don't care. I like Linus, but please let him do his Windows thing. A few years ago he said he wasn't sure what he was going to do. Than a new model. All right by me, but I'm not so interested anymore. I think there are more interesting stories to tell about Windows, but when you love games it might be a must. I don't know and don't care. But don't tell me that Ubuntu of Linux Mint are incomplete compared with Windows 10 or 11.
Spot on.
@@LenQuerido Yes, I understand that Linux is working fine for you and everything of yours is in the cloud.
If someone, like Linus, says I tried this and this did not work, the situation is about him and someone should hold his hand and help him out. I don't see anything wrong with hand holding.
Some people just say, use a search engine. Well, sometimes the search engine returns a million pages, some of the info is too old or they give bad advice.
The web is the wild wild west.
For example, sometimes I need a specific project to do something. Unfortunately, the author gives source code. The code is ancient. You try to compile it on a modern system and you get errors. Now what? Now I have to invest hours to try to see if someone else has found a solution or maybe I can find a solution.
@@LenQuerido I just read the comment.... where did they say or IMPLY that it was incomplete??
Did your laptop battery drain with linux lol
Hand holding is necesary if you want linux to be more popular tho
Only in just-works distros
I almost don't feel it needs to be mainstream,the best distros that Linux users love the most are the complete "do it yourself distro's" all distros that have tried to do down the "easy as windows" route has been hated by the Linux community. Not to say there isn't a place for those distros because they are great for new users,I started there too years ago before deciding arch Linux was where I wanted to be.
Skill up users. We’ve had computers in every office for 30 years, users cannot keep thinking that it’s okay for them to not understand anything
@@chillary8372 people understand windows and it works you can't expect them to learn a separate operating system
People with entire degrees in tech don’t want to learn a new operating system. It’s a pretty big problem actually not just carol in accounting
I think there is a difference between criticising Linux and it’s community and describing all the issues during his time on Linux, if you would watch other videos you would know that real criticism went towards companies refusing to support Linux rather than the Linux itself.
And also this challenge was all about “gaming on Linux” not developing, being devops, sysadmin or power user. I wouldn’t expect from someone who wants to install free and open source OS for gaming to know git clone or packet managers and this challenge suppose to emulate this type of people’s behaviour, and to bring those people to Linux and broader gaming market with them you can’t just tell them well “learn this and that before you will be worthy to use this superior OS” if someone ( like me, I’m devops and I work with Linux server on daily bases ) has daily maybe 1 or 2 hours of free time to play a game don’t expect them to waste this on Linux bug fixing
Yeah, DT was just too cruel in this vid. He keeps calling Linus a windows fanboy and totally fell into the category of Linux chads that he was afraid of when starting the challenge.
I'll tell you what's really going on. LTT Linus has a deal with Valve. What you're seeing is part 1. Then LTT Linus is going to use a Steamdeck and you'll see part 2. BTW if you're playing games that's the definition of wasting time.
@@1pcfred From the years I've watched Linus, there's been no evidence he ever hid a sponsor. If valve has a had in it, he'd tell you. Also, part 2 and 3 dont have steamdeck.
Also, remember, this whole linux challenge came after windows TPM 2.0 fiasco requirements where people with old hardware would most likely be screwed (i got a z820 golliath here with 2xeons and 98gb ram, but no TPM 2.0 for example). So, the idea is to push for linux (again) more and more to the masses.
You can't be a linux gate keeper. Linux has come phenominally the past 15, 10, even 5 years. gaming is getting better and better. People are sick of of windows' problems and apple's insane brand tax. He's geniuenly trying to show linux as a viable solution.
The video--rightfully so--shows the frustrations a fresh newcomer might have with Linux. Even with Linus' tech background, he faced problems. So, imagine what it would be like for a non-tech user?
These videos shouldn't be taken as bashing linux, but should be used as constructive criticisms which the linux community can continute to use and keep improving linux.
@@MahmoudElgassier you can just add a registry key to get around the TPM requirement. Linux is fine. It always has been. What we need is better users. Linux is nothing short of amazing when you're good with it. Just don't do what LTT Linus does. You're going to tell me about Linux when I've been running it for 26 years? I like how Linux used to be compared to where it's been going on lately.
@@1pcfred the TPM registry bypasses the installation of windows. however, that disables the auto updates and you have to get the updates manually to install. It's still a mess.
"what we need is better users". I'm sorry, but that's just being narrow minded. Your users is what keeps you alive. The more, the better. You can still be a sys admin and run pure command linux (I do that at work already), but getting more people in and excited about it makes it grow. We in IT sometimes have this stigma of being snobby, and I--for one--do not like that.
For many, Linux is new. Linux is different. Linux is needs practice. We in the Linux community should absolutely be more welcoming and happy to help the transition to Linux, as well as listen to legitimate critiques and learn from them to make Linux better.
Don't forget, first time Mac-to-Windows or Windows-to-Mac users have the same frustrations many have coming to Linux. The only difference is the vast support from both online and immediate people in the vacinity to help with Win or Mac.
if the rebuttal is "it's linux, you're going to have to figure stuff out," it's a HUGE problem for the point of view LTT wanted to give. If you want Linux to be more mainstream and not just a niche OS, you have to do more than just defend your community. But it seems like this video is more about defending the existing community than reaching out to linux noobs
Nop. You totally miss DT's point that a lot of LTT's issues don't even have to do with Linux.. AT ALL.. but with the manufacturers that decide not to support Linux. In addition, the rest of his complaints were just plain ignorance of not knowing the basics (e.g. apt on Debian), which is something you should already know before making a big decision such as deciding to install a new OS.
I can perfectly well understand the linux community being frustrated by some of Linus's criticisms. My only rebuttal is Linus is coming from the perspective of "the average user". Not people familiar with computers, let alone an operating system. I actually REALLY like his suggestion of a wider consolidation of Linux distros. So most of the heavy lifting security and compatibility work is centralized, meanwhile people can still spin off with smaller community distros based on personal preference/philosophy. And when it comes to the "general user", the terminal needs to be a value add, not a requirement.
I've convinced a couple of my friends that I was playing with on Windows to try out Linux, never in my life I've got a complaint that Linus has mentioned. Either he didn't know how to google stuff, or he was trying to be an idiot on purpose. Either way, I'm positive he could've done better if he wanted...
@@xydian4282 ah yes another "open source" advocate
Still, 2 of the issues are complete nonsense. Like, if you try to use Windows Store on Android, that's onto you for not reading about the OS beforehand. Yes, it is a problem that non tech savvy users will run into, but no one talks about it? Why? Because we can't do anything about it. There are some things that NEED to be done by the user on every platform, including research. Not knowing how to run a script or even know what that is, is the Windows equivalent of not knowing how to run a .exe file or know what that even is. Yet, do we see people thinking it is a problem? No, so then why should it be a Linux problem? It's not.
Something I think you're missing, is that Linus made the point that the "Linux" community has been saying for the last couple of years, that "Linux" is fine for gaming. In other words, it's being presented to gamers as a single OS called (wait for it....) "Linux".
So, while saying that "apt is the wrong command for Manjaro" is totally correct, it's missing the point - the website provided instructions for "Linux", and Linus followed them as he would instructions for Windows or OSX.
Sure, this is an educational/Linux OS fragmentation issue, but it's central to the point. When Linus comes across instructions saying "this is how to do this in Linux" he's naturally going to think "guess that's how it works in Linux". Having to know that different distros use different package-managers isn't obvious when what you're being presented with is (again....) "Linux." Note: telling someone the right package-manager to use also wont help, as Apt and Pacman have differing package names.
I suspect that they started out thinking that different distros were just different versions of the same OS - think Windows for ARM vs Windows XP, Windows Embedded etc. Still the same basic OS (Windows dev here, they all suck), and they work pretty much the same way. Not so for "Linux" :)
It's not Windows-v-Linux it's Windows-v-Arch, or Windows-v-Debian, but that's not how it's been presented to them as gamers.
You get that, I get that, they don't.
Exactly. If Linux and its distros aim to be newcomer friendly, they should help them navigate the unfamiliar territory as much as they can.
@@hindigente Windows is a commercial product, Linux is a community project. Linux =/= Windows. Get that fact on your head.
@@maynnemillares So? What has one product being a commercial product and another product being freeware got to do with the comparisons between the two for the end user?
End user just wants something to work as expected. While both get it wrong at times, Linus is highlighting the issues he is facing trying to use his Linux install. This is basically a first impression series of Linux and not really anything to do with windows and he is highlighting the issues he finds
@@maynnemillares That doesn't change how easy something is. The latest office printers can be a pain to use if you are used to how they used to be back in the day, and they are/were all very expensive in their respective time periods.
What website? I think you are missing something yourself. He didn't go to any website. It just magically popped in his head to type apt-get install obs-studio for some reason. I totally agree with Derek on this. He could've Googled it in no time, but no, he sat in front of the camera and complained about stuff that isn't even related to Manjaro or bash in any way
I think you misunderstood the point of Linus videos. He wanted to see, how Linux is for a normal Windows User. He doesn't want to bash Linux. It doesn't really matter, why something can't work (like no apt command) or why something is not intuitive. Its just a bad user experience for a new user. With what you said you also confirm the point from him a bit, that Linux is not for the general public, but you need to be a bit Tech savy, which you don't really need to be with Windows (because the drivers exist there, and you don't need the hacks). For the point Linus was trying to make, in my opinion he was quite fair. And I say this, even though i do everything on Linux, but I know it's just not a really good experience at the moment for the normal user, if you want to use it for everything you used windows for
You do not need to be a bit tech savvy for the average user. My cousin's mom who was in her 60s was a very casual user who 99% of the time was just using her desktop for the web browser. She had a computer that was still running Windows XP in 2013. It was always having problems. We installed Linux Mint and all the tech support issues for her went away. I showed her how to do updates and told her to run that at least once a week. She died two years ago, but she used that computer daily for 6 years without issue. The typical non-power user has zero issues using Linux.
@@jeremybarlow2291 it has. When the non-poweruser wants to download a Programm with online instructions. The user you described is a lowpower user. That won’t game or install something. The normal user someone who eventually installs something and casually games. That’s where windows is aimed for. Linux isn’t very good at it. But my respect that she learned this new system.
If he doesn’t bash Linux he would need to use something else like zsh
"Its just a bad user experience for a new user. With what you said you also confirm the point from him a bit, that Linux is not for the general public, but you need to be a bit Tech savy, which you don't really need to be with Windows (because the drivers exist there, and you don't need the hacks)."
Like you just said and like DistroTube was trying to explain, we wouldn't have to be that tech savy if the companies were building drivers for Windows as well as for Linux.
On Linux, Nvidia cards owners have a lot of problems as myself with some technologies like DLSS not working properly out of the box, not because Linux is "too complex for the common of mortals" but because Nvidia themselves are too lazy to develop that same piece of software for both Windows and Linux.
@@pixelcat5281 99% of cards and peripherals work out of the box with Linux with zero need to obtain any drivers. nVidia stands out because of their refusal to open source drivers which would mean the Linux community would gladly help them make better drivers for their stuff. it's actually a piss poor corporate management problem. AMD just works out of box with zero headaches 99.9995% of the time. How bizarre? The same goes for a ton of peripherals. Are there some stand out problems with printers? Yes, but they are much rarer as noted by the super easy experience Linus and Luke had.
Why are you taking everything like a personal insult? He clearly is just saying his frustrations as a Windows user migrating. Thats kind the whole point... I didn't think Linus was "blaming Linux" at any point.
Trolling? No. What he's doing is giving a sample of the sorts of UI and UX problems that are critical to solve if widespread Linux adoption is ever going to be anything but a pipe dream.
It's not impossible. Linux installation has gone from being a real hassle to actually easier than Win 10 for some distros. User friendliness in general has improved amazingly over the last ten years. It just not enough to catch up to Windows or Apple on everything that comes after the base install. Linux distros have reached somewhere between Win95 and Windows XP levels of user friendliness I'd say, so there's still something like a 20 to 25 years worth gap to close, and of course Microsoft and Apple still actively develop their systems so it's a moving target to chase. The thing with mass adoption is this: you have to catch up BEFORE people will switch in large numbers. Getting people to switch first and then hoping that manufacturers and developers will flock to support the platform is not realistic. In the end it's about money. Support and design cost money, and without a user base of sufficient size there's no money in it. Without competitive ease of use, there's no user base of sufficient size.
I'd say the two major issues with Linux are that the valued "freedom" makes attempts at standardization and cross compatibility like herding cats, and that there's a cultural tradition of feeling like good UI and good UX are crutches that only n00bs need and so aren't taken very seriously during development. It creates way too many friction points for new users who don't want DIY system administration for their computer any more than they want to take a hammer and beat sheet metal to make DIY body panels for their car. Yeah, it's fun if you enjoy it, but everyone else just wants a turn-key solution that works. Linux isn't there yet. Except maybe Android, and there's some justifiable debate as to whether Android really counts.
I mostly agree, but have to note for Linux' favor, that actually the user-friendliness of Windows has taken a steep and ongoing downhill after XP, and the current state of user-friendliness of Linux is rather on the level of almost Windows 10 or 11.
So Linux really has still a long road to reach the UX of Windows 95 or XP, but it has already become a really viable rival for current Windows releases due to Microsoft having brought their moving target closer.
Same also applies much to the Apple's OSes although I have less experience about them.
In addition to the UI design and uncomprehensiveness of GUI, as well as software and hardware support, which are often cited as typical issues of Linux, also the disastrously overlooked phenomenon is the unsustainable software bloat, which plagues much of all platforms and Linux is generally somewhat better about it than modern Microsoft and Apple products, but still especially the mainstream Linux distros have way too much bloat.
And the apologists please, don't even try to argue that the bloat is unavoidable when all the drivers and apps have been included to make the distro suitable for beginners. No, it only and merely affects to the size of installation package/image. They definitely don't need to hog down RAM and CPU - you can make a simple GUI to select only the necessary pieces to run. Or about the drivers, all the automatic hardware detection runs anyway and loads only the specifically needed drivers, not the zillion others included for which no devices are found to be present in the setup.
@@TheSimoc I'm sorry but I have to disagree, Linux distros are nowhere close to the user friendliness of windows 10/11.
I understand lot's of enthusiasts dislike windows 11 but people take it too far, Privacy is the main issue user friendliness isn't in anyway worse than XP (maybe it is in a few areas but just as many things have been improved since then, I mean remember how many viruses people got back then).
Your average windows user can upgrade to windows 11 and pick up right where they left off, yes there are a few issues as there are with every new release but it fundamentally works the same as it always has.
I run IT at a small office and none of our fairly tech illiterate staff had any issues. Meanwhile when I installed Ubuntu on an older machine, the amount of support they needed for basic tasks was ridiculous, after a week and a half of trying to tough it out I went back to windows because despite the speed loss Ubuntu was just far too hard for them and it wasn't getting any easier. Most older people lack Tech confidence meaning that they doubt their ability to solve even simple IT problems, so as soon as they need to start googling error codes to install software (or god forbid open terminal) it's game over. And trust me your average person will never be willing to do in the amount of research required to use Linux effectively when for them Windows 11/Mac OS both work perfectly fine.
Every task the average user would want to do on windows can be quickly and easily done via the GUI. People claim that you can use Linux entirely through the GUI but actually trying that leads to no end of issues that lead to a google rabbit hole that wastes so much time, and whenever you bring this up people tell you "lol just use the terminal" then act surprised when a novice like Linus bricks their OS.
he average user's eyes glaze over the moment they see the terminal and until you can use Linux as easily without terminal as with it the OS has no hope with regular consumers. Even most young tech savvy users aren't interested in memorizing a bunch of commands just to use their computer. Every distro I've ever tried has ended up a far more infuriating experience than I've ever had with Windows/Mac, there's a reason they remain so popular and it's because Apple/Microsoft have spent decades researching how to make the experience as accsesable as possible whilst Linux requires an uncalled for level of expertise to do anything more complicated than browsing Facebook.
The idea that Linux is as easy to use as windows 11 is only true for you because you presumably already have an understanding of the terminal, plus I'd have to imagine your doing stuff the average user isn't because otherwise I'm not really sure what your finding so difficult about windows 11.
Btw I'm not saying any of this to make out that Linux is bad, It isn't. In fact it's wonderful for a certain demographic of users. However I feel that these users overestimate the technical ability of the average user (as an IT professional I can tell you they have so so little), and underestimate the difficulty that novices face.
These Linus videos demo that brilliantly as tbh Linus is doing way way better than the average person would (remember I've seen it with my own eyes) and yet people still accuse him of trolling or being intentionally dumb, trust me regular people would make the exact same mistakes and like 50 more besides.
With the APT vs Pacman issue, most documentation for Linux geared for newbies is based on Ubuntu.
Thus it's understandable that someone whose only experience is with Debian-based distro may think apt is the Linux package manager.
So trying apt on Manjaro, understandable. Repeating it again and again because you refuse to read the error message, is well user error.
"most documentation for Linux geared for newbies is based on Ubuntu", so it's not "Linux documenten", it's Ubuntu documentation.
@@mononix5224 That for you and I, but for the new user it’s just Linux.
EDIT: Interviews With Monster Girls is great.
@@ybenax That is the exact problem, as long as we (people who talk about Linux distros and such) keep on using the confusing terminology the confusion will keep on happening. Maybe we should use "a Linux" as a short-hand for "a Linux distribution", like Lisp programmers talk about "a Lisp" for any language that is considered to be in the Lisp language family.
And yes, Interviews With Monster Girls is indeed great and I really need to rewatch it, because it's been a while...
Between Ubuntu, Mint and Rasperry Pi OS all being Debian derived, APT is pretty widely used in "My First Linux" type distros.
@@mononix5224 This is the "distro" problem in general. It doesn't have a direct analogue in the Windows/Mac world, so it's hard to easily explain what's going on to someone who hasn't used anything else before.
I agree with you that Linus should've RTFM but to be honest, he is demonstrating a typical end-users reaction and experience. When I did some tech support and customer service I had many people yelling at me because they couldn't log into a website. That is the level of technical knowledge that people have, they barely can log into a simple website. Yes, reading documentation is important but assuming your end users are going to do that is just hoping for the best.
And that's exactly the point of his Linux challenge - how would the average user respond to this situation.
I wish people could understand this. The gatekeeping won't make people ditch proprietary stuff any faster, it will only encourage them embrace proprietary stuff even more because of groups of people in the open source and Linux communities hazing them for not being pros the minute they first log into Linux.
But the problem is, if that's who you're targeting, then can you really say you're targeting "gamers?" I'd argue not. So bringing up a problem that only a non-gamer should have, because of a lack of whatever (sleep, research, etc.) is an inappropriate complaint directed toward Linux & its community when the goal is to see how hard it is for gamers to game on Linux.
I think he's being fair(to a point) but not thinking about it from the standpoint that it's an entirely different OS, Just like when I was a kid and new to a computer in general, knew nothing of Windows 95, and was left to my own devices, yes some things were difficult but after all the things i had trouble with i learned every setting, what fixes what issues and a lot more. Same with Linux, i've been here for about a year(happily on EndeavourOS) but i have messed with a few different distros, had issues in them all but now i know how to fix said issues.
Linus is a web master dude
can be cringe sometimes watching newbies trying to find their way with something new that you know well, but gotta appreciate them trying to taking their first step. that's how all of us start the journey.
Linus reacting the way he is, is exactly how I reacted when I tried Linux first. Then i went back to windows. Somehow i decided to try linux again and had luckilly a better experience. Unfortunately the fact remains that the pains linus is facing are universal.
They aren't universal. Common, possibly.
@@nomathic7672 copium
lol. "Universal." I've never had to deal with OBS studio, multiple monitors, NVIDIA display software, the wrong package manager, color LED keyboards, or type a sentence about how I know I'm going to mess up my desktop environment but do it anyway. If you're talking about general driver issues, that's the same with migrating to any new OS. Even people upgrading Windows (notably Vista) or Mac OS versions have the same driver and setup problems. You avoid a lot of that by installing a popular "full" distro like Mint or Ubuntu or Debian, not some new or DIY distro like Pop OS or Arch or Gentoo.
Sebastian and Luke are not typical users with state-of-the-art $1K graphics cards, server racks, and monitors in different rooms. Luke had very few problems with Mint and most/all of them were solved with a restart...
luckily*
But it is a one-time pain and you are fine once you get the hang of things.. It would be the same if I tried to switch to mac. It's not like the pain from switching to a new OS is just a "Linux thing."
I like how you say that Linus is a windows fan boy, when he has pointed out bad stuff about windows a number of times but then you get butthurt when people don't understand some aspects of what you are seemingly fan boying
Regarding the driver issue - if I already have several hundred dollars of really good quality hardware that simply doesnt work right on Linux, that's a huge dis-incentive to switching.
Of course but it works both ways as DT said in the video. For example I have a perfectly fine Ryzen 1600x in my computer here, so my doing a "lets try Windows 11 for a month" would be a very boring video with me without a computer for a whole month, or an incredible short video.
@@Henrik_Holst It is possible to install windows 11 on it. I have windows 11 on a secondary ssd on my pc that has i7 4790k (not supported cpu) and everything works fine. I use windows only for gaming
@@Henrik_Holst I mean, besides being fundamentally wrong about not being able to install windows 11 on that CPU, there is a huge difference between core system components not being compatible and peripherals not being compatible. Either way though, you miss the point that if you're telling me switch to Linux because it's better than Windows (something the Linux community loves to push), but my devices won't work properly if I switched, then quite simply I'm not going to find the experience better than windows.
@@pelataan69 Possible with workarounds that require a special app from github yes, and I think I've made my point?
If that does not satisfy you I also have an old Thinkpad here that you cannot even install Windows 10 on, should we try that one?
@@twitchyarby It's not possible without downloading a hack from github, which kinda was the point here. But I have machines with even older cpu:s than that if you really want to go down that path, the world is also full of old hardware that only works in Windows XP due to the drivers never been updated to Windows 10.
"if you're telling me switch to Linux because it's better than Windows" - I would never do such a thing. The main issue here seams to be that people thinks that Linux is Windows but better when its a completely different system altogether.
Or yes for me Linux is far superior to Windows, but I have zero idea what it would be for you, that can only you decide.
I started learning Linux a few weeks before discovering this challenge and Linus experience more or less mirrors exactly my struggles. I kept looking for Linux specific guides not understanding the difference between a distro and a GUI. On top of that if you don't know exactly what to search for you will find a hundred wrong answers that you think are the right thing.
i basically had none of these issues in the video, really felt to me that he was having extremely poor luck, i guess i must be extremely lucky then? who knows
Linux community logic: Linux isn’t and shouldn’t be Windows. Windows is idiot-proof and user-friendly. Therefore, Linux SHOULDN’T be idiot-proof and user-friendly.
Great job, guys.😂
Yo, DT. I think you were a bit too harsh on this video. We all know Linus is a windows guru, but he's not a fanboy. Looking at his vids and remembering when I migrated to Linux, I remember some of the pains he's going through. I think if you kept the "I'm sick of windows, I want to move to Linux for the first time with absolutely zero help from friends" notion in mind, you'd be more understanding.
It took me quite a bit of work to get my dad into Linux, with lots of "this makes no sense, windows is ..." Comments.
This is a great chance for distro devs to take notes and maybe twerk some things, while giving Linux more visibility and forcing larger companies to take note and support the OS.
I still love your channel, and I still love learning from you, boss.
> I want to move to Linux for the first time with absolutely zero help from friends
Linux distros have, for better and for worse, always relied on community to help deliver good experiences. Linux distros are not finished products designed to be used by people in isolation; they're collections of lots of software that has evolved over time, and using them in a pleasant way requires getting a feel for them and learning how they work a little bit. The ‘zero help’ mindset, unfortunately, doesn't really work on Linux desktops.
@@vpxc And that’s exactly why the “year of the Linux Desktop” won't be a thing any time soon. Windows and Mac OS has really nailed their UX down after several years of refinement and simplification. Seeing the reactions of some people calling Linus “stupid” instead of accepting the flaws and actually coming up with ways to make it easier to use, makes me think that it won't really happen if nobody treats criticism as criticism instead of personal attacks.
@@Annabelle_UwU well said. Totally agree
At a certain point he clicked on the script and this was displayed on the screen.
Even if he could not figure out the many ways to download it, I wonder what technical issue prevented this "guru' from selecting the script manually and copy pasting it into an editor.
This has nothing to do with the operating system.
@@NotBlackice i watched all the video and all the LTT series so far.
Linus raised some valid points about the issues he had with Linux. However the inability to click around the github interface, or Google how to use it, or even select the script manually with the mouse has nothing to do with Linux and is inexcusable.
There is no mention of the inability to copy and paste from the browser in this video since the part of the original video where linus shows the script in the browser was skipped and not commented upon.
The thing is: the first time I installed Linux, I didn't even know what was a package, let alone a package manager. Bear in mind that Linus is a tech-savy guy and knows the fundamentals of Linux way more than the average PC user. It is not a few minutes reading, it is really complicated to understand what is going on when everything is new. I only recommend Linux to a noob friend if I can install, configure and explain some things,otherwise I don't ever bother. Linux distros have to decide if they are aimed to everyone or for enthusiasts only.
I absolutely agree with this, and Linux community doesn't seem to be helping here at all. They look more and more like terminal savages :D
@@MeduotasMedutis I advocate for the terminal all the time, but will point a GUI option as-well, because most people even professional users, obviously outside of software development want a nice big button to fix their problem.
@@devilmanscott not to be rude or anything but as casual user myself I want no problems in a first place.
@@MeduotasMedutis Well, that's impossible, you do realise even this simple comment I am sending to you is going throw numerous servers, sending billions of bytes being checked in near real time, going through numerous security checks and so on.
I think people forget how amazing computing really is, it shouldn't really work as smoothy as it does.
But I agree that usability should be as smooth as possible for normal users.
The thing is Linux is just the kernel.
Linux mainstream exists already, aka Android
Mainstream desktop Linux doesn't. Linux on x86_64 computers usually go to servers and doesn't have a big sponsor like Google (except chromeOS)
I’ve tried Linux (Mint/Ubuntu) for the second time after years this week just to regret it and reinstall Windows again. And the problems Linus is going through in these series perfectly describes how I went. I spent 2 days with literally no sleep trying to solve problems I was having just so in the end going back to Windows because I was spending most of the time fixing bugs and not doing what I actually wanted to do (work). And as someone who knows how to look for stuff to solve my problems and do it on my own, it was impossible. While on Windows I got everything working in minutes (after install).
I think you should consider that Linus represents the majority of user problems when trying to use Linux for the first time. You talk like every problem he’s going through as “common sense” when in reality, it’s just because you already know.
And Linus is way more tech savvy than the regular windows user, imagine how it's gonna go for everyone else 🙄
I had the same experience as you, I love Linux and tried getting into it many times but it always ends up in *many* hours lost fixing problems that shouldn't be a thing in the first place (e.g. sound or wifi not working, menus not doing what they should, etc).
this
@@MyNewSoundtrack totally agree, the biggest project I ever done using linux is installing my printer working (It actually took me days to figure out to get my outdated printer working, the instruction of installation were not straight forward). Other issues I face is random system freeze, which i have no idea why as it was working perfectly for few days.
@@kenrock2 I recently started dual booting Zorin OS 16 alongside win10. I really like it but it prompted a message about additional drivers, and that included my wifi adapter which was working fine. I installed the "additional driver", rebooted and wifi was completely gone. I tried every single solution out there for about *2 days* but I just gave up and reinstalled the entire OS from scratch 🙃
Now imagine the common folk dealing with this kind of situation 🙄
Also my speakers weren't working at all, but headphones did. This issue was magically solved by putting the laptop to sleep and waking it up 🙄
@@MyNewSoundtrack I have similar problem too. I once had install the nvidia driver brokes my operating system and wont be able to boot in.😭
I guess Linux is not completely driver friendly. I have an old laptop installed with Linux wasn't really that stable and frequently freezes after using for a period. I spend days figuring it out, and also look into forums for solutions to my case. I have tried changing the swap file size and changing partition format but to no avail. It wasn't a faulty hardware as it works perfectly under windows without any issues at all. So I gave up and looked for alternate distros.
I suspect it could be the newer kernel version that causes the problem. but I did not dig deeper into the rabbit hole as i have been spending too much time in troubleshooting the technical issue before I can even start to learn how to use Linux, which is why some newcomers gave up linux easily.
With all the criticism and struggles, I'm still learning it. Just hopefully one day I could adapt to using it.
I get the points listed in the video, and I've seen multiple videos talking about it, calling Linus unsophisticated, saying he's playing like a child, saying various things to the effect of he could figure it out. But I have not seen one video praising Linus for what he's doing, he is walking through as a user. When I knew user joins a platform you have to be aware of the hurdles. If Linus couldn't figure something out, how many people have switched to linux, experience one of the issues, and then have just left and reinstalled windows. When he describes apt versus pac-man, it would be very hard for bash to maintain something like this, but how hard it would it be to have a program that displays text describing Pac-Man and how to do the same command in pac-man. Don't do it for you but explain it to the user. He is attempting to find out how user friendly Linux is, how easy it is to switch nowadays versus in the past. We should be looking at these issues from the same point of view that valve does. Valve is said if proton doesn't work for a game, it's a bug. If the user has an issue figuring something out on linux, that is a bug. That is something that we can do better. If a driver does not work on Linux with a specific product, that is a bug. We cannot hide behind the philosophy of "well that's just how it works, the manufacturer has to make a driver" because then progress never gets made, and we're always in a cat and mouse situation where nothing works for new users and well that sucks. Distros like pop, manjaro, elementary. They should all be looking at these videos as a ux design test, as what can we improve. these should be some of the experiences and videos that get attached to bug reports to fix some of these issues, to write some programs for new users. What would be the harm of including a program named apt-git, that's optionally installed, that when it's ran tells the user to run Pac-Man? Stubbornness, ignorance, and an overall problem with elitism that is rampant in the Linux community. If we ever want manufacturers to write drivers, if we ever want to get the user base higher, if we ever want Linux to be a real product that you can use on the desktop day-to-day with no issues. Then we need to start listening to new users rather than telling them that they're stupid. Linus is putting his neck out, getting hate from everyone, in an attempt to help the Linux community out. We should listen to him.
I would like to begin with a little joke - there's already "The best gaming Linux distro" out here. It's been out for a decade at least. It's called Android :)
Regarding some points Linus made - several of those points are definitely on the conscience of companies making those products - like nVIDIA with their outdated (hello from 90-ies) control panel. Like RGB control apps being non existent for particular piece of hardware. Not that i personally care about RGB... Well this is yes and no. Yes, those companies should make Linux versions of their app. On other hand - they most likely feel that Linux desktop is not widespread enough that they should. Or maybe they are unsure which distros to support? Who should help those companies adapt their products if not Linux community? At least talk to them.
And Linux community... ufff... i have been using internet since i was 23, from 1994. and i can say that Linux community, at least in my country is extremely toxic and unfriendly towards newbies. I have never met so much arrogant elitist pricks as in our local Linux community who think that more you talk crap about Windows the more of a Linux expert you are.
Yes, total beginners coming into Linux means you will get basic and stupid questions all the time. But if you are not ready to accept that ... i don't know. Sometimes i think Linux desktop society does not want to increase Linux desktop market share.
As for Linus did not knowing how to make .sh file run... erm.. i thought he has a bit more knowledge about Linux, that you need to set +x. But some newbie coming to Linux might not know that either.
In the end i want to say that old saying that Linux, Windows, MAC .. whatever ... they are just tools. Use what is best for your task. I will not use Linux out of principle (i am not Stallman) but i will not use Windows out of principle either. Whatever helps me to get my job done easier and faster. I have to use Windows, Linux and AIX in my daily job. Good thing is that those videos might spur Linux community to work on these issues improving EXISTING distros. Please don't create additional over 9000 new, "even more frendlier" distros. That's not helping.
@@danethorson7992 what a lame joke! Not going into desktop vs mobile gaming issue but Android only runs games that are specifically tailored for it. Any linux distro for pc is better, especially with steam and proton.
Linus reacting the way he is, is exactly how I reacted when I tried Linux first. Linus is trying to show what a new user feels and experiences when they try Linux for the first time, I did sudo apt-install when I tried Manjaro first, and this is something that others might also have done, so him making this mistake is not something that you should be surprised by. Not everyone is a Linux wizard, so I think your reaction to Linus's video doesn't make any sense. You are taking it as personal attack where as Linus is showing what everyone in the Linux community already knows. Him actually mentioning all of this in his video might help the Linux community seeing that he does have some sort of an influence in the tech industry.
Also the "basic" stuff you talk about in the video somewhere around 7 or 8 minute mark does not make sense as well, its not basic, if you are on windows or mac, you can use the same installer or installing method to, well install a program so him or anyone else for that matter thinking that apt might be the way to go for an app install isn't crazy because remember, he did install Pop OS before Manjaro which he messed up. accidently. It might be basic for people who have been using Linux for a long time or who have an experience with Linux but for a newbie, its not basic at all.
To your point about being able to Google the issue, well, that's true of literally everything. It doesn't change the fact that Linux is not easy to use for a newbie. With this video he is trying to help out the people who are trying Linux for the first time, you are treating this video as a review video or an attack which it isn't. Bad reaction video.
not really, as a noob i know most of problem that Linus have with the terminal.
@@wongjowo9152 if you know about all those issues and terminal etc, you really aren't a noob then, you might not be an advanced user but you surely do know more than someone who just started using Linux. I remember when I started, I had tons of issues, same goes for Linus, he might know a thing or two about Linux but he clearly isn't as good as he is on windows, and the point of this video is to show what a new user who is trying Linux for the first time goes through.
I get what you're saying, but Linus to me seemed to be presenting himself as an expert (and he generally is), rather than explaining it as a 'noob' (which usually comes in the summary of his videos).
Granted his expertise is mostly hardware and close-to-system software, but you would expect an expert to do basic reasearch or at least clarify that they're trying to show/explain their experience from more of a 'noob' standpoint. And that dropped-the-ball a bit idea is what the reaction video is about.
How can you use "the same installing method" on windows to install a program? Windows is one OS by one company. Linux distros are essentially different OS's although being built around the same core architecture. You cannot use the microsoft app store on Mac as far as i know or the google play store on windows. Which is to be expected.
@@thetechfella1 I understand your point but in the beginning of the first video, Linus clearly mentioned that he doesn't know much about Linux, he hasn't used it that much apart from the videos he made for Linux where he had Anthony with him who knows his way around Linux. I could see both Linus and Luke struggling the way I did when I started using Linux, and Linus seemed more lost that Luke too specially during the first video.
I think Linus is acting as an "auditor" here and brings up some fair points.
By the way DT I said it before, but I encourage you to become a teacher. (o:
Absolutely ridiculous! Linus has been reviewing products on UA-cam for 15+ years now. He's criticized all major players in the computer industry including Google, Intel and AMD. He did a reaction video to the Framework computer, and then did a full disclosure video stating that he believes in the Framework company so much (and their open architecture) that he is personally investing in it. He believes in full disclosure and truth in product reviews. Take your conspiracy theories elsewhere, they hold no weight here!
No, he's trolling everyone just to increase his subs and income. Move along, people, nothing to see here. Whatever "The QVC Kid" says now or in the future on Linux won't make the slightest difference. He should stick to what he's good at, namely shilling hardware to self-entitled gamers.
@@littlepeon So Linus is your poster-boy - I bet you even have a Linus plushie too. But even that is just opinion, albeit a rabid one.
@@terrydaktyllus1320 no I'm not a LTT fanboi, however at least Linus is being honest about Linux, unlike Derek. This hasn't been the first time DT has tried to spread misinformation, and I doubt it will be the last. If you look at Derek's "look at Windows 11" video, DT struggles to do things that most MS users would have no problem accomplishing. Simple things like changing wallpaper, but DT could bother to RTFM(and yes windows has plenty of documentation on how to use it).
Most of the issues gone over in this video really were things that basic entry level research into how to transition to a Linux based desktop OS would have resolved.
It can be a painful experience to transition if you don't learn some of the fundamental information related to both GNU/Linux in general and that specific to whatever distribution you're interested in.
Linus' issues and criticisms thus far are largely that of things that are inherently out of the hands of the GNU/Linux community as a whole, out of the hands of the distribution maintainers, or are just a result of not doing basic research going in.
Don't get me wrong, though, it is good to have someone like Linus call out these issues, even those that could have been easily avoided, because he has a huge following and commands significant influence in the tech space. Thereby, this creates opportunity for some UX improvement in desktop distributions, but also exerts at least some pressure on companies that don't offer quality support or any support at all for Linux.
There's no guarantee that this will bring over more support for proprietary hardware and software, but it's better than nothing, so I hope that he continues and make this a recurring feature of his channel; I'd love to see them try again in a year or so. I'm sure they're receiving unwarranted criticism from a small segment of the community, but I genuinely hope that this won't dissuade them from doing this again. It may not be easy, but progress is not made without significant effort and I think we can all agree that moving more and more away from Windows and macOS can only be a good thing.
Windows isn't necessarily easier. A lot of the way Windows functions is obscure and inconsistent, with many potential failure points, but since it is, far more often than not, the default computing experience that we all learn and use this means that most of us already have a fundamental understanding of the OS and its quirks and issues. This is how Windows came to dominate the computing space. Microsoft, often through exploitative and questionable tactics, managed to make themselves the default option early on and have largely managed to maintain this position ever since. It's like a self perpetuating dominance over the computing space.
Most people in this comment section came from Linus's channel after searching for reactions of the Linux users. They seem to struggle to comprehend that most of the problems in Linus's video could've been solved by a simple google search in mere seconds.
@@xydian4282 not everyone is willing to waste his time to search to fix every little problem
I used linux for a year and used to google alot of stuff
But then i realized it's just isn't worth it to waste all my free time googling and give up on games i like just so some low life linux fanboy can be happy I'm using it
I entered it to support the open source community
And quit it because talking with low lifes who just mock you for not knowing the correct command and every part of it
I don't mind gate keeping
But they do it in a very toxic way like drive through into your intentions like they are the gods and acting childish
Personal insults for stupid shit like operating system like it's your mom or your god
While I'm and linus is just normal users
I would've loved to support the community
But it isn't worth it
Quitting is best for all
So some people will learn to get a real life
Watching the linux community's reaction and general reception of Linus' challenge and the issues he ran into has been the biggest Windows commercial i've ever watched. As someone who has been so frustrated with windows on so many occasions, i have seriously contemplated getting linux instead. Every "linux guru" i've watched has said it is the easiest thing in the world, yet when i watch someone seriously try it out in a manner similar to what i would personally do he gets shat on and accused of trolling.
When someone new to your platform runs into issues with things being unintuitive, and the immediate reaction is "stop being uneducated you dumb dumb, you should have known to either type these ancient runes into the command line, or known to go through these 4 menu's and click this button to magically fix the problem without any indication of this fixing said problem", they'll first look at you like you have three eyes, and then switch back to their previous OS. For 99.9% of people they want something that works. It's cool that linux let's you tinker with literally every option of the OS, but the overwhelming majority don't care, and for those people you need at least ONE distro that is ACTUALLY user friendly. And even if a single distro is "the most user friendly", that is currently the same as a physicist saying "this is the most intuitive way to understand string theory". It is still jargon and unusable for most people.
There is an old example from people studying design, of the "push/pull" door. If you have a "pull" style door that every person keeps trying to push, that means you designed a terrible door, and yes, it is YOUR fault, not the user. People need to actually decide if they want the masses to adopt linux, because from my perspective, it doesn't actually seem like it. If not, then fair, keep doing you. But then i don't want to see people spewing lies about how it's more "user friendly" than ever with an ocean of users basically going "yaaaaas" in the comments.
I love your example. Didn't that study lead to pull handles being vertical and push handles being horizontal? :D
-> we need horizontal and vertical handles in Linux.
@@Atlessa It's been replicated and elaborated on further since then, so i'm not sure of the current details as it relates to the push/pull door, but the principle still applies. If every new user commits a "user error", then frankly, it's not user error. It's bad design.
Microsoft and apple realized this years ago, and have poured significant time and resources into trying to minimize obstacles. Hardcore linux powerusers can screech all they want about people "not being willing to read the manual", and they are right. But why would a user read the manual, when they can just get an OS that doesn't need one? You can only fix an issue once you acknowledge it exists, and i see a whole lot of people in denial of this problem.
"But then i don't want to see people spewing lies about how it's more "user friendly" than ever with an ocean of users basically going "yaaaaas" in the comments." I feel that's been shown unavoidable in the modern days of the internet time and time again. Bubbles form naturally; which is also why I so adore Linus for doing this challenge.
I've made my own experiences both in education and while doing a bit of a hobby Raspberry project with Linux and basically had very similar experiences to what you and Linus described.
- Being called an idiot and looked at funny whenever I'd ask a, I assume in their eyes, stupid question why something doesn't work like this on Linux in the education setting. (A few people were actually helpful and not condescending - thank god.)
- Consulting a sheer endless amount of guides to fix issues like GPU supported browsing and office on a Raspberry Pi only for a lot of these guides being outdated, no longer working or me simply being too stupid to make them work. Fun fact - the solution that did work ended up performing worse than disabling GPU acceleration altogether.
There's hope Valve's SteamOS will offer a good foundation for noobs like myself with enough standardization and sheer quantity of people asking the same questions that the answers will be reliable.
@@Innosos My hope also rests on SteamOS. Steam is a profit oriented company who want as many people as possible on their platform. If they can create a sandboxed OS with good driver support, they got a new user in me.
Enjoy your spyware os.
you seem to have taken this as some kind of personal attack when his experience was similiar to my own first few weeks on linux. Most of what he said is absolutely true and the only way it will change is if someone popular calls out maintainers and manufacturers.
yup, this video only proofs the hostility in the Linux desktop community towards new users, you cant expect a new comer to already know that Linux is a divisive environment with many package managers , ppas, repos, flatpaks, snaps, app images and so on, Linus's comments seem to be very valid for me I had to do a lot of research at the beginning to understand this one topic that on Mac or windows is just out of the way because they have a unified way of installing their stuff.
Also the way he said, "only buy stuff that work on Linux" like really? Linux worldwide holds only around 2.09% desktop market share, even Chrome OS has a bit more, which company creates something and goes "oh yeah I'm gonna test it first for the 2.09% of my possible customers" lol
Linus is definitely not trolling. He is like better educated new user. Linux keeps leaving stuff broken and most PC users won't have the patience to fix it.
Open source people taking constructive criticism as personal attack! What a shocker, that totally didn't ever happen before /s
You literally have this with switching from any operating system, if you’ve never used MacOS before you wouldn’t know how to do everything you used to do on Windows either
@@0-h031 no but I sat down at a mac for the first time with just a pair of braincells bouncing around upstairs and didn't have to google anything to get rolling, and mac os is objectively a bad os.
22:10 I find it interesting how you interpreted that as him "blaming" linux. To me this whole video series sounds more like an experience report on how it feels using linux. And sure, he's very critical of it, but then again this is valuable feedback on how a new user experiences the switch to linux (and I bet he already had more patience than most would have).
If we ever want to increase adoption rate, this is not something we should take as an attack on the community, but rather as pointers on where we still need to help new users use the software we are so proudly advocating for
Linux is never going to massively increase market share on the desktop
@@JonnyInfinite buddy, it already is.
@@empyrionin hardly
I agree. If any other operatingsystem "Brand" (Mac, Windows) had different install routines for different versions / iterations then sure, you'd expect Linux to have as well. But that's not the case. When I had a brief look into Mint Lisa I used the gui to install because the terminal was just overwhelming me. I had no idea of all the different pakage managers and what not.
I faced much of the frustration of things not working and as someone who isn't into linux most answers on questions in forums etc were way too complicated and went into system stuff i didn't understand even an inch because they were written by absolute Linux cracks - which is much appreciated but that also leads to these answers not being understandable for absolute new comers.
Also, I felt the last portion of this video (we have a community and you have to be careful) almost felt like a threat. People don't want to bash on linux / its distributions. They are just genuinely frustrated that everything is so fragmented. every version requires entirely different processes at times and little is uniform. Why would you tell me "hey, be careful what you say there"....
@@boahneelassmal He makes it sound like it's a toxic fandom, like kpop or such. I'm sure Linus will be safe from a bunch of nerds tbh
I've been using Linux since the mid 1990's. Kernel 1.2.3 on Slackware, If my memory is correct.
Linus is 100% correct.
Linux zealots have been claiming that desktop linux is going to be the latest and greatest thing every year. This is nonsense until the linux community grasps the difficulties that users have to overcome to use linux . Mac users don't have this level of difficulty when they learn windows. Windows users don't have this level of difficulty when using a Mac. I have helped countless people switch back and forth. Never has one of the new users had this level of difficulty. Linus is not a tech noob. If he is having these difficulties your average non tech person doesn't have a hope in hell.
I still have difficulties with some aspects of Linux, even after 25 years of use.
This video shows why Linux will NEVER become mainstream. The linux community attitude is partially to blame.
Honestly, Linus complaints aren't really valid. All of the complaints highlighted in this video were bogus. I've watched Linus videos for years now and in these Linux challenges and felt very disappointed. Especially given the state of Windows 11 at this time, and how Microsoft is treating its paying customers.
As a user of Linux since Yggdrasil installed off the back of a Linux Bible on a 286 with a parallel power cd-rom, I too think Linux is a great operating operating system that is far better than Windows or MacOS, not catering to the lowest common denominator. That of course doesn't mean it needs to be 'hard', but with that comes some level of need on the users part to understand what their doing. Either they use the interwebs to find the help themselves, or as you said they get some help from someone they trust personally like yourself, in their home.
Linus is literally using one of the best documented Linux distributions out of the major distributions. Both the Manjaro and Arch wiki's are available by a simple Google search. Personally I have them setup as search shortcuts in Firefox to quickly check keywords out. What's funny? If Linus had searched the Arch Wiki for the keyword "OBS", all those wiki pages have a standard "Installation" header section which tell you the EXACT NAME of the package to install. In the case of the OBS page there is a link "installed" to be clicked which links to the pacman page illustrating EXACTLY HOW TO INSTALL A PACKAGE ON THE BASH COMMAND LINE.
Given the above. Given that Linus "is not a tech noob" and no doubt can read English, being he's a West coast Canadian. No doubt it's possible he could have easily solved this OBS installation problem. Someone else did all the work to document the steps he needed to take. They already painstakingly took the time to eliminate any question as to how it should be done.
People give Arch so much crap, but it's one of the best documented distributions I've found under the Linux umbrella. Instead of trying to be "easy", instead it just documents all the hard parts well and gives you the steps to power through correctly. Maybe Linus should have used his noggin instead of his noodle. I agree with DT on this, I don't think his heart was in it. I think it was some kind of half-hearted stunt that has caused some frustration, to which we see on camera in the form of a lack of serious journalism.
I use Linux on my desktop everyday. MacOS is crap as a UI, Windows is usable but not as open, and Linux has it's ups and downs and not everything is as simple. As DT says though, once you go Linux you start to buy with an eye for Linux support, etc. Even then, there's an amazing amount of crossover due to community and commercial buy-in. Don't pile on more crap where it's not warranted.
Linus is definitely not a windows fanboy… he’s literally said multiple times that there are just as many inconveniences on windows and that he hates to use it in many scenarios
I'll be honest, when I first installed Manjaro back in 2019 and I ran sudo apt-get because this is all I knew about Linux I had a nice "oh shit" moment. I'm daily driving Arch and Artix right now but it's been 2 years of me learning about stuff and a lot of reading. I invested and still investing a lot time in Linux mostly to get used to it for my future work, this was the main goal right after was escaping from Windows. It takes time and it's not for everyone but it really pays off. It's just that most people don't want to learn anything new even just for fun of learning it.
4 years ago, I did the same thing when I decided to try and move over to an Arch system after I was more than comfortable daily driving in a Debian system. I was warned that Arch uses pacman and didn't think anything of it. Needless to say, I learned "sudo pacman install [package]" was not a universal moniker for installing packages after that. So when anyone complains that someone is stupid for wanting to use the keyword INSTALL to *INSTALL* some software, I actively choose to roll my eyes and say "Sure, okay buddy."
Exactly. Linus is doing the challenge from the perspective of a complete Linux noob. A noob that would go online for pretty much all the answers to every problem they face so if it says run apt-get to install something of course he is going to do that, it is a perfectly valid and honest mistake. I really don't know why Derek says it is not a "legit" complaint.
I love this quote: "It's just that most people don't want to learn anything new even just for fun of learning it.". That is IMO entirely the correct attitude when it comes to operating systems. The OS needs to get out of the way. It should be a commodity, not a feature. It should facilitate running applications with the least amount of hassle (aside from the hassle arising from security concerns). Drivers and applications I install in Windows, these days, work almost entirely without fail, first time. The risk of them damaging the OS to the point where you need to reinstall is close to zero. Yet this is what happened to Linus. That, and his other issues, remind me of what Windows was like in the 90s. It is not something I would want to go back to.
I am a Windows software developer since the early 90s with some Unix and Linux experience. These days I use LTSC. I don't like Microsoft's direction. Switching to a Linux host for work and just plain Linux for gaming is something I might like. However Linus' videos and the comments from Chris Titus have made it clear that it's not for me at this time. Learning a new OS is one thing. Dealing with the rough user experience I remember from 20 years ago is something else.
You are ready for NixOS now 😊
If this is going to be your future field that is great. Some of us have other disciplines. Forcing medical, engineering, construction, and others to become as good at a field while mastering their own field is unrealistic.
In the mind of the average user who wants to try Linux, it doesn't matter whose fault it is that something doesn't work on Linux. They will always see it as a Linux problem.
It's the exact same thing when people install dodgy hardware and software on Windows and the system crashes. They always blame Windows and not the garbage that they installed.
If users are the problem then there’s nothing you can do to *fix* it
@@chillary8372 if you write software for the masses thats exactly NOT the successfull line of thinking. Always write for the dumbest imaginable user.
@@LeFoenk we desperately need to stop deskilling users, and that won’t happen if we keep allowing people to think it’s okay to not know anything about the tools they’re using
@@chillary8372 its impossible for most people to invest that kind of time and brainpower. I have no clue how most things i use on a daily basis work exactly. I dont have the hours for that.
@@chillary8372 I like your mindset!
A video of a man spectacularly missing the point
Trying to use Linux has been pretty much a dumb experience for me personally. From the difficult installation, to bad experience using applications and long winded solutions to problems. I wanted to use a computer for it's ability, not test my knowledge or patience or spend time Googling stuff. Some people in this "community" are straight up hateful instead of helpful. And they can't see past their own noses either.
base on your comment, seems you really got a hard time in the distro you choose (compared to mine)
hard to believe if you actually used a beginner friendly distro
@@michalski9141 Ubuntu. The experience described above was pretty much mine.
Mint. Ditto.
openSUSE. Ditto.
@@centralintelligenceagency9003 "experience" none of you described any of your experience past "uuuh bad" I'd appreciate some actual examples that could lead us to real solutions / debates rather than some complaining. sorry if I come off as rude that's just my style of dialoge, I prefer words actually leading towards a goal.
@@michalski9141 What, you expect me to use a youtube comment section as tech support?
All that matters is, when I had those distros running, I encountered problems left right and center, and not one of the fixes yielded by googling worked,
NOT ONE.
And this spanned several installations over several hardware configurations.
Are you deluded to the point that you believe that the problems with linux for people who just want a working computer and who don't want to spend years of their life learning the inner workings of the OS they try to use can be solved from being described ONE issue over text by a layman?
Come on man. I have to call you out on this. I'm sad to see a smart guy like you fall into this trap. The whole video you're reacting to is about a non-Linux user explaining the pain points he, personally, has encountered when trying to use Linux for the first time, painting himself as a kind of average windows gamer trying to make the switch in the reality of what Linux gaming is in late 2021. You are representing those hostile elements of the community you mention at the end when your response is to seemingly take Linus's experience as some kind of an insult and try and negate his frustrations rather than talking about how to help new users have an easier time making the transition.
You cant have it both ways. You can't just suppose for no reason that Linux is easy to use for a new user and then blame that new user when it turns out it's actually not. If you actually want Linux to be easy enough for mass appeal, this video should be a gold mine of legitimate complaints for you to consider. Neglecting and downplaying the complaints in this video is completely counter-intuitive for you as an open source advocate. Surely you must see that. You are only advocating for Linux elitism when you blame the new user for not knowing what they, by definition, will not know, exactly because they are a new user. That's what new means. It means they don't know how to do it. Blaming them for it does not help anyone.
So, Linus was confused about how to google Linux advice? He googled "how to install OBS on Linux" instead of googling 'how to install OBS on Manjaro?" How is that not a legitimate thing for a newbie to do? He tried it and he learned. So does everyone. How does you implying he's willfully ignorant, for not knowing something he didn't know, help anyone? I bet you didn't know different distros have different package managers until you learned about it the first time. That's the whole point of us trying to see Linux from a newbie's perspective! They're supposed to not know all these little things we take for granted when we just assume that the entirety of Linux, with all the hundreds of different distros, is somehow obvious just because we happen to already know how to make sense of it all.
And all that nonsense about how to get scripts from GitHub? The whole wider point Linus was making was that needing to download scripts at all is not a newbie friendly way of handling core functionality, even though GitHub really should just have a download button somewhere. Using command line tools to sync repositories is all fine and dandy, but there's nothing newbie-friendly about that. Imagine being a new user to Linux and trying to solve an end user problem with scripts: You go to GitHub for the first time ever, not knowing anything about it, and just trying to figure it out because you have to, to get your games working. Are you really trying to say you can't imagine how that could be legitimately frustrating for people? Imagine some other random noob who hasn't used any scripts for anything since the DOS days. You can't see how it could feel strange to them to suddenly have to go back to shells and scripts twenty-five years later? It's not about having options, it's about those situations when downloading a script is your only choice. Lots of people who are new to Linux have never done that before. It's completely legitimate for them to think it's a strange way of handling things.
Of course this all becomes easy once you learn to do it, but the whole point of this whole LTT video series is to show what Linux looks like to someone who hasn't yet learned all these peculiarities. When you say they should just RTFM and "get good," you're not actually adding anything to the conversation because a noob is by definition someone who doesn't yet know.
You say you're an advocate for open source and you want to get as many people as possible to switch over? If that's true, then you yourself should be much more newbie friendly. Most of this video is you just explaining something you already know as if it's a criticism of someone who doesn't yet know all the same things you do. That's obviously not a legitimate way of making Linux easier for newbies. We don't have to want that. Linux doesn't have to be easy. But we can't just have our cake and eat it, too. We have to at least admit that Linux can be unintuitive and convoluted to the uninitiated. Instead of talking down to Linus, and all newbies by proxy, you should maybe be more proud of your own skill as a veteran. You don't need to pretend everything is simple and easy just because you know how to do it. These things can still be hard even if they have become easy to us.
For people who want Linux to become easier and more ready for mass appeal, these are exactly the kind of new user challenges we have to take seriously. If anything, Linus is a power user, and most true newbies will be much less willing to just learn and learn and learn when all they want to do is play their games. But, for the Linux community members who don't care about Linux being easy for newbies, the least you can do is not attack them for lacking knowledge they can't have, by definition. A noob who actually knew how to use Linux wouldn't be a noob anymore.
You're doing a lot of deflecting in this video. Blame Linux's lack of hardware compatibility on the hardware companies. Blame Linux's lack of game compatibility on the game companies. Linux, in your eyes, is a simple and easy and beautiful, and everyone should use it. All the problems can be blamed on something else and thus people should never speak a bad word about their experiences in trying to actually use Linux in the real world. The problem there is of course that people only have one, total user experience. It doesn't matter where you want to place the blame, the problems still happen.
When you say Linux is a wonderful user experience for someone who already has Linux-specific hardware, and only wants to use Linux-specific software and only play Linux-native games, you're not making Linux any easier for all the normal people who legitimately do want to use Linux the same way they are now using Windows. You should be more honest about not being able to have it both ways. You have to either admit that Linux is not for everyone, or you have to be more open to new people wanting to cross over on their terms, not yours. Otherwise, it's too much to ask for.
The Linux experience is what it is, even if all the negatives are someone else's fault. If you want to be a good advocate for open source, you should strive to be more understanding toward an outsider's point of view. You saying it's somehow unfair for Linus to be frustrated at Linux when his Linux experience is the source of that very frustration is not helpful. In this situation, you're the one who's not being objective. That would be fair enough, but you say you want to be an advocate for open source. In that case, you have to suck it up and just accept that new users will get frustrated with Linux even when you think the legitimate blame should be directed elsewhere.
You say most of Linus's complaints were outside the scope of Linux, but that's not true. That's a completely arbitrary distinction for you to make. For him, "Linux" is the totality of his experiences and if you want to be a good advocate, you have to accept that as a legitimate point of view for any new user trying to make the switch. If you want to teach people like that to change their perspective, you have to change your approach. You can't start by just outright negating half of what they say. As frustrating as it might be for you, you have to be the one to suck it up, and pander to them much more, if you really want to be the one to change their minds.
Linus was not being "unfair" toward Linux. There's no such thing as fairness, in that sense. There's no reason people should be obligated to be "fair" toward Linux just because we're the open source "good guys." All of Linus's criticism is completely fair because it was all directed at his own personal experience. If you want him to be more "fair," you need to approach people like him on their own terms and then find a way to change their minds and turn them into open source advocates. Otherwise, they are completely within their rights when they put their own user experience above any concerns for their portrayal of open source, PR-wise. You said it yourself: an honest look at Linux gaming from the perspective of an average gamer was always going to look bad, in 2021.
Again, I'm only encouraging you to be more honest, and be more compassionate toward differing views, so that you could be better at your own stated mission.
Exactly this.
t's not a "why Linux sucks video" it's a "Problems I encountered while using Linux." for the end-user it does not matter if it's the Linux Kernel, the distro, the webside, the hardware or the drivers.
The problems exists and are reasons for the user to potentially not use Linux.
For example, I am a junior web dev so I use Github on a daily basis and the process to download a specific file is NOT as easy as it should be. There should be a tiny download button next to each file or in the right click menu. Both of these are doable.
Oh and as a side note on the Github point, yes it's not a linux problem but windows does not force you to use Github. That's Linus' point.
wow what a read i agree with everything
You got an a+ from my free open source professor
Exactly. It doesn't matter if it's someone else's fault that Linux doesn't do this or that. In the user's mind, it's a Linux problem.
It's exactly the same when people install dodgy hardware and software on Windows and it bsods. Users always blame Windows and not the garbage that they installed.
I think Luke had fewer problems because he went with Mint which, in my humble opinion, is a great distro to transition from Windows to Linux.
I tried MANJARO as a arch and gentoo user and really hated it, seemed like arch easy mode but buggy and unintuitive.
Can confirm. Switched from win10 to Mint roughly when the news of win11 came out, haven't looked back since.
(I only use win10 as a bootstrapper for some of my games, everything else (including MOST games) I now do on Linux)
Wright.
@@atis7 Like 100% of the problems I got when I tried manjaro was because of me dual booting it with windows. I hear Garuda (also easy arch) has the same kinds of issues when not being the only bootable os.
Idk if it's a KDE thing or manjaro thing, but I can confirm that manjaro had no problems when I ran it as the only os, and that it didn't matter I'f I dualbooted from one drive with some bootloader tinkering, or from two separate drives.
@@atis7 I can agree with you, vanilla arch is so much better than Manjaro if you have the knowledge of installing vanilla arch. Manjaro defenetly seems buggy and unintuitive and ubuntu breaks itself nowadays.
It's so funny you calling him "Windows fanboy" even when he isn't while you are clearly a blind "Linux fanboy", which is so stupid. Being fanboy about anything is stupidity. Your mindset is the reason why Linux is such a pain to everyone who tries it. The Linux Challenge is not a personal attack to anyone. It's a totally realistic experience of a Windows user trying to use Linux. I would probably mistaken more things than them. You can't just say "you have to know what you are doing" cuz if I have to study hours upon hours to know how to use a OS and not destroy it, that's not a me problem. Linux as is is not really a trip I would recommend to anyone. It seems more buggy than Windows and require more tinkering for a worst experience in general. And that's kinda ok. The Linux community is used to this. Linux on PC is never going to be a thing for most people cuz people like you don't give a shit about new users. _It is perfect the way it is. Nothing has to change._
Contraditory considering you want people to go to Linux, at the same you ignore the problems and when they appear you say "it's your fault, the experience is perfect"
Perfectly worded. I was honestly about to write something like this, but you went ahead and did it. I completely agree
I use linux. I remember the switch. I agree with Linus completely.
@@f__kyoudegenerates I'm planning to switch the moment Apex Legends starts working on it. Then I'm gonna use it pretty much for everything besides video editing. I'm probably gonna dual boot Linux Mint for beggining and Windows 10 LTSB from 2015. That windows version should have no bloat while still managing to run all the new apps i use
The problem is that the solutions were a search away..... If you are going to talk about a problem at least ensure that there is an actual problem. I believe this is what dt was trying to explain. He acknowledges there are issues but also knows that there are solutions. Linus paints the process of installing a package as hard and confusing when he wasn't even using the correct package manager. Had he just searched his error the video would be 2m shorter.
Rofl you noob
"Would have taken him 3 seconds" Yes. Linus did figure it out after a 3 second google search, in fact, and pointed out the pitfall for other newcomers, and you're dragging him for it and accusing him of trolling. Knowing full well that he's not one of us. But he's the one operating in bad faith here? You sure?
Here's the issue: that 3 second google should not be required at all, because it asks the -NEW- user to understand concepts they cannot have possibly been exposed to, especially when the problem can VERY EASILY be handled upstream in both major families of Linux distros. Simple command alias/script outputs a 'Wrong package manager, use this one instead.' Done and dusted. 1 line of code for each package manager, just a simple echo? And that's too much to ask of the most savvy user base in all of computing? C'mon.
I'm using Windows and LInux for over a decade and yes you need to google on both! The only ppl who don't need to google stuff up are those who coming to me for "repairing their computer" ... and most of them were windows user...
@@BruceCarbonLakeriver Never had to google how to install something on windows browser or winget. On linux i had to watch a whole video to figure out how to use apt.
3:30 - Yes, it would have taken him 3 seconds... If he knew he needed to ask the question in the first place. If you don't know that different distributions all have their own package manager, then you don't know you need to Google it. When you once learn "on Linux you install things in the console with the command 'apt'" and it was working before and it isn't working now, the first thought would not be that "oh, this Linux works differently than the other Linux".
Let me guess ... Average Joe's very first experience with a car is based on idiotically pressing the pedals because he's just used to how bikes work, right ? Right ?
@@Smjork Given that everyone has some experience with cars for years and that you need to actually practice (which usually includes being taught by an adult) before you get a license... that comparison completely fails.
If you want to compare it to cars at all, then I present to you: the manual car.
Given that the vast majority of people have only used automatic cars, I can tell you that only the exceptionally few could even turn a manual car on, much less be able to shift gears and drive it without immediately causing the motor to hard shut off.
amen to this, thinking the exact same thing that anything can be answer easily if you know how to ask the "correct" question, but not everybody know how
@@DemiImp He-He :-) Maybe in your country ... or on some other planet ... but in most countries I know statements like "My father taught me how to drive and he's a pro" will not get you a driver's license. A mandatory training program, with a certified instructor and the exam with policeman may or may not bring you the driver's license. *Anyway, the point is you have to LEARN, to be TAUGHT, TUTORED. It is MANDATORY, not OPTIONAL. Same applies to operating systems and computers in general.* Otherwise you're just the proud owner of an object which you are literally incapable of using.
And if he doesn't know, why wouldn't he ask the generic question of "how to install in Manjaro"? I've found that it's easy to introduce people to Linux when they're brand new to computing. It's the people that think they're an expert that I have the most trouble with. As Linus said in his video "a little knowledge is dangerous".
There's a lot of good comments here already, so I'll just say this bit: The Linux community as a whole really needs to stop parsing feedback and critisism as a personal attack.
Not saying this UA-camr is particularly thin-skinned, but I'm disheartened to see that (generally speaking, and more often than not) it's just easier to tear down people new to Linux instead of implementing ways to be more accessible.
Furthermore, I found myself nodding in recognition quite a bit as Linus ran into things that are still an issue a decade since I had a Linux rig.
If my novice-computer level has the same issues that a far more experienced techie does, that's gotta be saying something.
this!!
He's not exactly tearing him down for not knowing how to use Linux. The vast majority of all Linux users probably, were at some point beginners. He probably was there at that point too. He's only taking issue with him talking about a general learning process as a problem. You face this issue in every operating system.
Regarding his complaint about using apt and not being told it’s wrong, the only way I could see this being an issue is if a user looks up how to install a package on “Linux” instead of specifying their distro, where they might find instructions for the wrong one and try it. But someone should know the name of the distro they installed and would probably look up for that name, so there shouldn’t be any issue.
This guy really is a Linux user. The complete lack of consideration for the fact that Linux is in no way intuitive to any other OS in the world
Garuda for example has aliases for apt that point to the pacman man page, which is a nice addition. It wouldn't necessarily be unreasonable to expect something similar in Manjaro.
I had a good chuckle when I spotted that in the .bashrc . They must have seen Linus coming ....
@@ambarrlite Too bad Linus didn't jump on the Garuda train in the beginning when picking a distro.
If you are on arch then you should already know better. Hand hokding isnt the Linux way thankfully
@@NotBlackice I mean a lot of people have been using it for years so cool I guess?
Feels like the most toxic people in this community are people who never touched Linux lol
@@NotBlackice agreed
I hear people whinge about Linux not getting mainstream adoption, then when someone points out issues, they get attacked...
This mentality will forever have developers etc not writing drivers for Linux etc...
Needs to be change in many areas
You are thinking like an experienced Linux user, but you have to understand Linus' point of view as a rather savvy newbie. Gatekeeping won't make Linux any more accessible, welcoming or better. These LTT videos bring lots of good things for the OS: a new audience & feedback on the various aspects of the OS which can be improved.
LTT video has so many misleading points. The package manager is a thing to learn for users, okay. But about Nvidia? No it's Nvidia's design. About the install a bash script from github, how can it be problem of Linux when he right click and download the script in the wrong way with his browser? Well maybe the point is Linux distro doesn't have it by default? What if he does the same thing on Windows? Will he blame Windows OS for 3rd party software doesn't have the thing?
@@dmknght8946 "Will he blame Windows OS for 3rd party software doesn't have the thing?" we know he'd blame the website ^^
You made good points I can agree on all of them :)
He's complaining because, exactly like all the other people who might be tempted to try Linux because of the Steam Deck, people who are new to Linux but heard a few scattered things about it years/decades ago or even recently, will have absolutely no idea what they are doing. The average user is not tech savy, and Murphy's Law tells us that *"if something **_CAN_** break, it **_WILL_** break, and in the most damaging way possible".* And if Linux doesn't become friendly for the tech-unaware, it will still be an operating system for developers and enthusiasts only, as Linus pointed out. If you want Linux to achieve mass-adoption, you have to make it as intuitive and user-friendly as Linux, or even more so.
And while I believe PopOS might become closer to be that because System76 wants to make a noob-friendly linux, it should also have a built-in system for managing themes and graphical environment (aka. "desktop" environment, but not limited to the desktop and so the name shall be changed) from a single place, to make it look and feel more like one of the many other operating systems available to the users (i.e. few other distros allow users to go from looking like Gnome to looking like Windows XP to looking like Windows 11 to looking like MacOS to looking like Windows 7 in a few seconds and with only a few clicks? Even the WIndows themes are nowhere near that powerful without auxiliary applications to cover for the missing functionality).
Windows doesn't tell me what to do to install an app, either, but it also doesn't have an app manager (arguably, because it has one but it's absolute sheet and most people not use it or don't even know it exists, and it also lacks almost all apps users actually want to use), and users are expected to find installers and install them themselves or find standalone applications, and in both cases run those apps to use them. But since there is not much consistency between distros, and cross-compatibility is a much bigger issue than on Windows, people are forced to use an app manager even if they don't want to, and when the package manager they were told by someone to use in linux (and again, for newbies all distros are the same but have different themes and apps pre-installed), then they take that at face value and blame linux at a whole if that particular flavour (distro) of linux doesn't have that particular app manager. And there could easily be a single app manager which to detect on which OS it is and behave differently, like using an option which to tell it which way to behave or which other sub-app to pass those instructions to and receive the output from.
And don't even get me started on Linux apps' naming being absolutely horrendous. Let me give you an example of two frequently-used apps for both windows and linux, and how their naming differs: _Windows:_ File Explorer, Notepad. _Linux:_ Dolphin, Kate or Mousepad. How am I supposed to know a dolphin refers to a file explorer? Or that mousepad refers to a text editor, and not something you put under your mouse for it to have better traction and to not discolor the furniture right under you're moving your mouse for more than a month or two, or even know that second term if they are not tech-savy?
And I didn't even touch on file extensions and how there is absolutely no way to make a certain file type behave as an executable ( .exe ) does on windows when you double-click it, or to have the file extension decide which app the file should be opened with, regardless of what the file header tells it it is.
And believe, I would very much want to have linux be used by everyone and their grandparents, but the sad reality is that linux developers (for the most part) don't even care if non-techie users will join the ecosystem, which means linux will not be improved to become more user-friendly for those people, which means that linux loses on the chance to become *THE* mainstream operating system, and that hurts linux and linux-enthusiasts the most. Hopefully, PopOS will manage to make a truly user-friendly distro which to be used as a de-facto distro for all people new to linux and which to not need a normal non-techie noobie to open the terminal even once in years if not decades of usage, or at least have someone else do that instead. But I doubt that will happen, either.
Think of it this way: If all the new-user-candidates tell you a certain product is broken, maybe it's the product which is broken and not people's unwillingness to learn how to use "properly", which means to use it as the developers intended. Take it from the world of business: If the product is not intuitive-enough for most use-cases except very niche uses, then it will most likely fail as a product. If you refuse to go in the direction the user-candidates say they are heading with or without you, then you complain that those user-candidates don't become users, then it's up to you, not up to the people who refuse to use a product which is not good-enough for them.
You got so many valid points.
I totally agree with you as both Linux and Windows user.
Man, as a windows fan who is trying to dabble my fingers in linux, I was just starting to enjoy your content - only to see this video. I was hopeful to see you advocate for changes to be made to make linux more beginner friendly, but was instead greeted with a out of touch and purposefully ignorant response to the many problems that plague new linux users. Even just a followup video addressing the comments would have been nice to see, but instead, nothing.
When you say you advocate for everyone to switch to linux and it's your life passion, I would've hoped you would have been more considerate and attune to the problems people face with it!
Linux is extremely beginner friendly in many distributions, but people are accustomed to being entitled, babied, and lazy by companies that have to coddle them because their users pay their salary. Linux as a whole (for the most part) is community driven, meaning nobody has to hold your hand. Yet, there are endless amounts of resources. Linux shouldn't even be seen as a single entity anyways, so to say that one should "advocate for changes to be made to Linux to be more beginner friendly" just shows there's a fundamental lack of understanding as to what Linux actually is.
@@nomathic7672 Okay, keep gatekeeping then. Consumers aren't lazy, they just don't want to waste hours every time a little issue pops up, and are perfectly complacent with the default setup of the os. Until beginner distributions can catch up to the reliability of Mac os + Windows, it will never be considered by an average consumer.
@@nickm.4274 lol "gatekeeping" your entitlement is seeping through so evidently you didn't bother to read or liste to anything at all
@@nickm.4274 I dont think this thread is worth replying to anymore but before I exit this stupid conversation I'd like to point out that these problems that come up are for the most part, because the Linux community as a whole has to constantly fight against hardware changes that are influenced by monopolies that have zero interest in allowing Linux or computing in general to succeed.
I personally don't think that Linux will EVER be consumer friendly in the Mac/Windows sense because the way tech world works will never allow it to. It will work great but there's a base amount of work and responsibility involved and nobody is OBLIGATED to hold your hand. Nobody is being paid here (unless you're Red Hat or Canonical or whatever).
This notion of gatekeeping is hilarious though. A buzzword people love to parrot when they feel annoyed at someone or something. No substance.
@@nomathic7672 Case in point.
This video really makes you come across as the exact sort of person they complained about, and the exact sort of person who pushes people away from linux. It’s not reasonable to expect a new user to understand all the nuances of the software, especially not when they are to achieve basic functions.
The gatekeepers who just don't want to improve the experience of a normal user.
nuances?
When does it happen that ppl are expecting an out of the box experience by diving in ANY new situation? It doesn't even work with Windows....
@@BruceCarbonLakeriver The difference is that because Windows' install base is so large, and because it is the default OS for most companies, almost everyone has had a basic introduction to Windows. Linux doesn't have this same level of familiarity with most users. Not only that but windows does make most things FAIRLY easy and consistent across the board. Want to install a file? Download the installer and double click to run the wizard. Linux on the other hand requires you to use a Package Manager and each package manager handles things just a little bit differently. Not to mention that just because the OS shipped with a specific Package Manager, that doesn't mean you have to stick with it or that you will use it for everything. Manjaro comes with Pamac but you also have Pacman, and Yay as options. Windows also has made most processes graphical based which again assists with users being able to just intuit how it should work. Not to mention that for the most part the naming scheme of basic tools in windows is VERY obvious and straight forward. Need to jot down a note? Notepad or Sticky Notes are great for it. Need to take a screen shot of a specific part of your screen? Snipping Tool is here to snip that screen shot. But Linux? Who the hell is Kate and why is she putting her name on my notes? And what do glasses have to do with screen shots, Eh Specy? I sure am glad that I can easily brows my files with File Explorer on Linux... Oh wait no, it is called Dolphin for some reason here.
The basic user experience for these Distros is ABYSMAL, sure the OS can do most things when you learn how to work with it. But ACTUALLY basic stuff, not perceived basics from the Linux community are just very obtuse.
I like both channels. As a confused Linux noob, just as Linus is, too, I feel his pain.
Edit: Linus probably would had made the video better by making it clear ("clearer", though it's apparent) that his video is coming from the point of a Linux noob, and that there's no crime in it.
Well it certainly doesn't help that his words are somewhat condescending to linux
The problem i have is how he frames things. Yeah a linux noob will have a hard time with the OS but its at least expected that a noob will face an error and will google it right away hell i started linux 3 months ago and faced almost every issue known to man in ubuntu but that didnt stop me with almost no expertise on terminal stuff
@@victorhugo-wo2ci have you met the average user? Most don't "google" their tech problems, they either ignore it, ditch it or hand it over to someone who might know how to fix it.
And if I was a non-tech person looking at Linux cause I saw some buzz about it, you can almost guarantee that I'd run back to Windows as soon as I saw nth many options for distros.
And I'm saying this as as a sys admin who runs both Windows and Linux servers on a "use case" basis
@@swatmajor1 can confirm, family members never google things, they ask me right away. Same with friends. They just let me know their problem and then I google it, lol.
@@victorhugo-wo2ci Dont expect average use to google and debug shit
I found that problem when I tried Linux, it took me like what 2 or 3 hours to figure out how to run a script for the first time so I am with Linus on this.
Same with me. It took many months to figure out where things were under Kubuntu, how to install software manually.
My first experience with Win 3.11 was the same. It took years to learn the details but that was in 1994. I spent time learning about DOS commands, the hardware, and more.
That's the reality of it. In the 80s, knowing how to use a computer was a big deal. Not many had a PC. You needed to take courses on it and read books.
Cus ur bad at computers
@@Nobodylihshdheuhdhd No, I was just new to linux.
how is running a script relevant to the desktop experience? was running scripts on windows easier?
@@michalski9141 yes, you just double click on them and they run, dont even need the terminal.
Linus is not a Windows fanboy. Far from it. He has criticized Windows on more than one occasion. He even did a top 5 reasons why Windows sucks. His words in another video, “I am not saying Windows is amazing and perfect. Because it’s not.” And yeah, he did use Mac OS on more than one occasion but he didn’t like it. Come to think of it that quote might be from the same video where he daily drove an iMac back in like 2014 where he said “Windows is just fine, and Mac OS is just fine.”
You are watching the video as if it was trying to make people move away from Linux, but in fact it's probably doing the opposite, people need to know what problems they might come across, and this video is about what Linus who is a complete begginer found difficult or consfuisnf about Linux. He is not trying to make a video to shit on Linux so people use windows so stop trying to view the video as if it was what he was trying to do.
It's hard to wrap my ahead around HOW out of touch one must be to think that those complaints from Linus are fabricated. Every single one of the hiccups is something that either I myself have encountered when I first started using linux or the few people I know who have used linus have encountered before.
I am quite taken aback because I see his reaction and I actually believe that he actually thinks Linus is trying to make stuff up - like that is not the experience most non-linux people have.
Incredibly out of touch with the average person / gamer, I have to say.
I'm only two minutes in and already imagining when you have an issue to the OS, complain about it to the IT support, the IT support just say, "you must be trolling"
Yeah, I found this channel recently and thought it was cool, but damn this video is making me dislike this guy lol.
It's painfully ironic how he even says his mission in life is to drive people away from windows and into linux, but he thought Linus was trolling and dismisses every problem linus encountered.
It's so sad to see he already failed in his supposed life mission by being so incredibly dense and out of touch.
It's funny that Linus could probably do a better job of converting people into linux than this dude ever could.
Linus have pulled shit like that before. For views. To get his point across. Etc. He’s a very dishonest person and borderline manipulative.
@@dreammfyre I don't know about that. You might be absolutely right. I don't know the guy. But my comment has nothing to do with him. Whether or not Linus is a dishonest and borderline manipulative person, the fact remains that every single one of the issues faced by Linus I have faced or seen first hand as well.
The fact remains that one ought to be seriously out of touch to even remotely suggest Linus' experience is not the experience of the average person or gamer that tries Linux.
Even if Linux photoshopped his whole video and none of it was faced by Linus himself, my point remains. It really doesn't have to do with Linus itself, or any Linus that uploads a video.
@@dreammfyre can you give any examples?
It’s ironic that the open source community is full of gatekeepers like this guy
was thinking the same thing. He sounds condescending as fuk.
He only made valid points though? And Linus straight up lied about that apt-get thing not giving any error
@@ARMcPro he missed the point entirely
@@truongkimson Not really. Everything he said is pretty much justified because Linus straight up LIED. Please be more accepting of other opinions. I know you might be a fan of Linus, but just accept the fact that he straight up LIED about something for no clear reason.
@@ARMcPro funny how you talk about accepting others' opinions but you yourself can't accept that this guy didn't get the point
Interesting to see so many Linux users defending Linus.
Also interesting to see the number of people harping about Linus trying to use the wrong package manager I don't use Linux for this sole reason.
With Windows if I have a program to install, that's what I do just click the install button and the process begins and finishes with minimal user inputs.
I am a 71 year old Aussie and built my own computers I just watch video and play games. Linux has nothing to lure me away from Windows.
Eh... I dont think he's trying to troll, we in the linux community do have a disgusting level of holier than thou attitude and a superiority complex.
We will complain about complexity and nuances when a "simp" is trying to transition over and just gives up/hates it, yet we will not even remotely give the same benefit of the doubt to the functionality issues of other systems.
Not only do we have a lot of gatekeepers, our gatekeepers tend to have a stronger influence in areas like blogs and forums.
UX is a critical component of users transitioning over. Most users just want to have something they normally use (software, tools, flows) just work, at least with minimal effort, requiring not that much more pre-existing knowledge. This is the bit that is Linux's biggest weakness.
Linus isn't trolling, and even if he is, his criticisms are valid.
Not to mention, the so called "basic" knowledge is still beyond the scope for an avg user. The problem isnt that it's a simple Google search, the problem is that the new user is supposed to know what to lookup anyway, this AGAIN requires a bunch of pre-existing knowledge.
Tinkering with OSs and software is something I love, and it's hard for me to imagine someone who doesn't enjoy that process - as it's something that I enjoy so much. But most people don't, and honestly and it's the worst possible outcome when they go to do a task. UX is something I really care about - and having tech-stubborn family members, I always try to give people them the best ootb experience. For this reason, I almost always choose to install Windows or ChromeOS for others.
This process of preferring those OSs over handing out Linux isn't a choice I made out of stubbornness, I love loonix, but the consistent problems, negative feedback, and infrequent adoption is what drives me to not suggest any linux desktop to normies. It's just not fun, lacks utility, and an awful experience currently - and doesn't seem to be improving imo.
Anyway, I like seeing realistic depictions of the Linux experience, and I completely agree that Linus's complaints are valid. But being someone who actually enjoys LTT while simultaneously being decent in Linux, I find the experience of watching his new videos on the subject absolutely painful.
wow... someone who realizes it that most linux advocats have some superiority complex. They feel like some priest who is trying to converto you 24/7, and if you give em legit feedback they are like: how dare you windows overall useer that only uses linux as a server and not as a main driver giving some normal criticism
Not to be harsh on the linux community, it's great that they exist, but maybe try seeing the choiche of ones OS as a chouche and not as a religion :)
" Most users just want to have something they normally use (software, tools, flows) just work"
I agree with you, just want to add different (or at least selectable) filesort on the built-in file managers to the list of things that make transition difficult, especially for someone who will still dual boot and would need consistency across os's.
I love how whenever a peice of hardware doesnt work on Linux, the comunities responce seems to always be: "Well don't use that."
That is not a good answer.
That seems to be the sentiment with most issues with Linux. It’s not Linux it’s you, it’s not Linux it’s your hardware. This is why Linux will never be anything more than 1% because the average users isn’t going to waste time researching and fixing things when there are better alternatives that just work. An OS is a tool not a religion. I hope the open source/Linux community don’t use a smartphone because if they do, then they are hypocrites too
Yea, a lot of people were making comments that he should have went with an amd gpu instead as if that's practical and representative of the average user.
@Nalini LTT are not average computer users. I’m all for Linux taking off as I do like it myself. But it’s time to stop burying our heads in the sand and fix what is holding it back. I’ve seen it often where people get recommended Linux based on false claims about game performance and compatibility and then they never want to use Linux again because they were misled. I feel it’s a case of running before you can walk.
I totally get what you are saying about the community and they are for better and worse a unique group of people. But this inability to take criticism and a joke really doesn’t help them.
Open source roms won’t be around for long, it’s definitely a dying art and what I’m getting at is that no matter what you do online, you’re always tracked. So privacy alone isn’t enough of a reason for most people to switch.
I do think Linux can go far. With the likes of valve pushing it and giving it direction too could mean a big shakeup is on the horizon. But as it stands right now and as someone who works in IT and deals with computer illiterate people all the time, it’s not there yet. Same with gaming, because on high end hardware you spend ages tinkering and getting things to work when you can use windows which has no hassle and performs better in games. All hope rests on Valve and the community embracing the criticism to improve Linux instead of being offended and acting like a cult.
Ok if some random hardware doesn't work on Windows, what would you say? Still use it? Your comment makes no sense et all LOL
@@BruceCarbonLakeriver On Windows, if there is a peice of hardware that doesnt work - quite often someone will make it work. What I am complaining about is an attitude that gives up on improving compatability with hardware.
"Of course it doesn't...this is not a real complaint"... And that right there is why Linux on the Desktop will remain niche; an interesting operating system that could become big on the desktop, held back by its supporters who don't understand the concept of CX or UX.
well said
This isn't a real complain since almost every major Linux distro now has a freaking app store built-in.
@@muhammadnaghdi919 are you dense man?
@@muhammadnaghdi919 And how long did that simple step take? And what's the UX for those app Stores?
@@Fredjoe5 point and click? Duh?
I am primarily a developer, but it find it great when I use rust that rustc will often supply these little help messages, such as suggesting if you've made a typo or referred to a field that is another struct down.
I think it would be interesting to possibly have a more enhanced "command not found" response that could suggest the command you wanted, such as pacman in the case where apt was typed in.
When people say "you don't need to reboot Linux after updates", what they really mean to say is "you don't need to reboot if you manually restart all of the affected services AND your distro supports live kernel patching (which is usually only the paid ones)". Usually logging out and back in again is enough to restart most things, but then you might as well reboot.
So I would just reboot after upgrade on my desktop Linux system. The only Linux I won't reboot is my Linode sever, and of course sometimes it just reboot itself if their is a scheduled maintenance.
My distro doesn't have live kernel patching, and I don't reboot on kernel updates. The current kernel will continue running just fine after the new one has been installed; the system is smart enough to allow multiple kernels to be installed at the same time without conflicts. Sure, I won't get the benefit of the update until I actually boot into the new kernel, but I can delay rebooting until it's convenient.
especially when most GN/linux distros reboot in seconds not like windows lmao. My void linux with musl reboots in 6 seconds on an old toshiba pc from 2010
most users don't have your level of experience, Linus is actually voicing many of my frustrations that I have experienced. If you want to know what drives people away from linux after someone of your school has attracted them over...listen to what he is saying. I like tinkering with linux and I have learned ALOT, but with these compatibility issues and unsuported titles, we can't make the full switch. These issues are very real for those who just need a pc for the end result. Most don't want to be an OS mechanic to get results from a pc, they need a work flow.
Yep, and his response to Linus is the stereotypical response of Linux users. I mean they want people to use more and more, but when newbies ask/complain about stuff not working, this isn't the way to actually convince someone to continue to use Linux. Because Linus is quite level-headed here, and his complains are legit and most of us who started had similar issues.
There's not a more toxic or trolling group against The Linux Community than those within the community itself. Especially The Arch Community. And I'm someone that used Arch for a few years before giving up on it earlier this year.
"sudo: apt-get: command not found". We will never know what he actually did to get Manjaro to try and install "dependencies for apt" and somehow force him to try apt-get again
I wouldn't say he is a Windows fanboy. He has some valid criticisms towards Windows and he openly talks about them in his podcast.
No, but he's obviously been so entrenched in Windows and ONLY Windows for so long that he can't even conceptualize basic OS operations outside of the Windows framework. Like was pointed out... why in the world would he expect typing "sudo apt-get" to suggest something else to him? Does typing "display disks" in the Windows terminal suggest maybe what he wants is "diskmgr?" It's like he's literally expecting Linux to act like Siri, when even Windows doesn't do that.
@@rodjacksonx You should perhaps consider that that is a shortcoming of Linux rather than a shortcoming of the user. sudo apt-get isn't a Windows thing. It was something that Linus learned from his first Linux video. I think it is absolutely a valid assumption that apt-get would work in Manjaro as well. Most people who use Windows don't even know Windows command line commands - why would you expect Linus to know commands for an OS that he's never used before?
@@rodjacksonx Exactly, he _has_ been entrenched in Windows. And it _is_ why he can't conceptualise basic OS operations outside of Windows. That's kinda the entire point.
What you people always forget is to see it from the Windows user perspective. They are switching from a comfortable OS they have used their entire lives, that they know, that is easy to use for even the most casual user on the planet, to an OS that is completely different in form and function. No one switching from Windows for the first time has ever installed something with apt or pacman, hell, most people havent even used the command line in Windows. Why are you expecting people to know the commands for an OS they haven't used before?
What praise or criticism LTT Linus has depends on who's paying him.
@@1pcfred So, who is paying Linus to criticise Windows?
Geez, you're acting like Linus is in a crusade to hurt Linux, or he's making fun of Linux or wants to make it look bad when it's the complete opposite, he has been making videos for a while promoting Linux, one of his employees Anthony makes videos about Linux and how to switch from Windows, these series he's making is an attempt to promote Linux, by acting like a complete novice normie coming from Windows, y'know the other 99% of computer users that only use Windows, he's taking that role to shed some light on how it feels to be in those shoes, is not that hard to understand what he's trying to do, yet you sound kind of upset like he offended you or something, you need to chill and stop your conspiracies, he's not a Windows fanboy, he's not after the community or out to destroy Linux, anyone that watches his videos regularly could tell you that, if he was a Windows fanboy, would he really make a challenge like this? promoting Linux?
I've been watching your videos for years but this was kinda cringe and just a bad take overall, the kind of elitism that keeps Linux a niche. Remember what is obvious knowledge to you is not obvious to noobs or people that are not like us and don't do research, those people can have a place in Linux, if it doesn't exist we need to create it.. because we want more people to abandon proprietary software and use FOSS don't we? isn't that your mission?
You hit the nail on the head, this was a ridiculously cringeworthy response by DT and came off way too personally offended. I’m not particularly a Linus viewer but this video did favors to anyone calling out the Linux community as elitist
It's been a while since I've agreed with a comment as strongly as I do right now. Love DT, but this take gave me secondhand embarrassment. It's equally kinda funny when he even lectured Linus about relaxing on what he wants to rant about before making said rant. "Do as I say, and not as I do."
@@MyselfAgain Hypocrisy at its finest.
And this kind of gatekeeping/elitism you mentioned is also how the Linux community will ultimately *kill* Linux altogether because they keep on getting hazed for not "doing it right" or being a pro the moment they log in for the first time when switching to Linux. People will only further embrace proprietary stuff if the big names of the Linux community keep on gatekeeping and hazing new users who know absolutely nothing about Linux.
Based on a bit more info I'd say LTT Linus is on a mission to sabotage conventional Linux distributions. He's a Valve shill. The burn is a long one though so it hasn't all dropped yet. In a recent WAN show he let slip that he has his own Valve rep, because why wouldn't he? We are talking about one of the biggest tech influencers here after all.
Rust shows that user friendly error messages in a power user application can in fact exist and help a massive amount. While you can argue about this in Arch Linux, which is targeted at experienced users, Linus was using Manjaro, which as far as I know is like a more user friendly layer on top of Arch Linux so it would actually make sense to have a powerful error handler there which can say "do you mean pacman instead".
6:00 Bash can be configured to automatically show improved messages for "command not found" error". For example, Ubuntu has package called `command-not-found` installed by default which automatically looks for packages if you try to run a command that's not installed yet. Arch could use similar solution *and* they could tell that "apt-get", "apt" or other Debian related commands shouldn't be used and provide examples of correct commands instead. Command line could be made much more compatible with beginners without causing any problems for experienced users.
I am a fan of both this channel and Linus' channel, and have been watching Linus' channel for a long time. I remember the (recentish) video he put out showing his unadulterated excitement when he was able to get rid of the last Windows machine in his rack. He may not be as up to par on the desktop, but dude is *not* a Windows apologist on the server side.
Fwiw, my first distro was Slackware, on 3.5" diskette.
It's true. He was really excited about doing this with Linux and giving it a go. Linus always wants to improve the tech community. Be it through healthy criticism, or childlike excitement.
If I was paying a site license for a Windows server, I'd be giddy at ditching it as well.
You are looking at this from the perspective of somebody that has spend years doing research and learning about Linux. You are willing to do that, so the argument of "you could have known this if you did more research" might seem reasonable to you. The reality is that 99% of computer users don't want to google how to get their OS working. The majority of people want things to be simple and just work out of the box. People who read the documentation and care about bloat, efficiency or licenses are a tiny fringe group of enthusiasts.
4:30 he's probably using zsh which is Manjaro's default shell now. If you type the name of a program that isn't installed, but is available in the package repositories, zsh will prompt you on whether or not you wish to install it.
I don’t have a problem with Linus’s complaints. These are the kinds of complaints I had when I first started using Linux, and they make sense for a new Linux user who doesn’t know much about how computers work in general.
What I have a problem with is the fact that these complaints came from Linus, for two reasons. First is that Linus works with computers all the time and has a more than decent understanding of how they work. The things he’s complaining about are things that he should have been able to figure out easily. Not being able to figure out basic things makes me wonder how he manages to run even Windows successfully.
Second is that because of who he is and how popular his channel is, I guarantee that video of his scared away hundreds, maybe even thousands, of people from ever even giving Linux a try. There are people out there right now who will never ever ever migrate away from Windows because of that video.
As someone who generally enjoys your videos I think you're missing the whole point of this entire experiment. The idea was to see how easy it would be for a seasoned windows gamer/user to switch to Linux. Linus (and I'd argue most people who are *interested* in Linux but primarily Windows users) isn't complaining about the open source community not supporting his devices/hardware/peripherals. Basically telling someone that they bought the wrong hardware when they were using Windows and they messed up is just not the right message to be sending to the normies. "You have a GoXLR/NVidia GPU. You messed up. You shouldn't have bought that. Buy something else and come back." Is this really how you want to come across as one of the more popular Linux ambassadors on the platform? Generally speaking, Linus is simply conveying the issues he's experiencing, not pointing at the FOSS community and blaming them for things out of their control. When he does specifically complain about what the FOSS community has done or not done it's usually from the perspective of a complete Linux novice speaking about the user experience, as a new user. I have to say that I agree with most of Linus's complaints as a *relative novice* because I've also had a lot of the same experiences distro hopping and not knowing just how much things change when you go from something like Ubuntu to Manjaro (KDE). Let's not mention the completely different keybinds/functionality with terminal based editors like nano vs basically any other text editor that the general public has come across. Do you really have to change basic keybinds like ctrl+f to something else and not even call the term in the bottom menu "find" or even "search"? I would say that if you want to install linux on a laptop but don't want to get into the weeds, Elementary, Pop, and Zorin do a pretty damn good job of giving people most of the functionality they would want out of the box. But if you want to do *anything* relatively involved you have to blindly follow guides you find online and hope and pray they are still valid for your build. And also hope you didn't mess anything up because if you did mess up one thing in a 15 page guide you basically need to start over from scratch (I did this today reinstalling on btrfs and timeshift). Overall for the most basic users who only want to browse the web, linux is extremely accessible. If you want *anything* more, you have quite the learning curve ahead of you. And that's Linus's point, I think. It's certainly how I feel.
Totally agree. Distrotube got super defensive.
I almost never comment on videos, but this video didn’t sit right with me. I’m a fan of DT as well but I couldn’t help but feel disappointed because it seems like he’s missing the point of the original video(s). DT’s tone comes off (in my opinion) like he’s interpreting Linus’ points as attacks rather than constructive criticism which does far more harm than good. For instance: what’s the point of implying that Linus is trolling in the title? It comes off as incredibly condescending-especially to a new user like Linus-and is just going to perpetuate the sentiment that the Linux community is toxic/not friendly. I want to give DT the benefit of the doubt and guess that it’s just hyperbolic for the sake of clickbait, but even then, I feel like it’s not a good look for our community. Besides the title, it felt like most of DT’s responses to Linus’ criticisms were essentially “you’re a technical fellow, you should have known better, shame on you” which purely reinforces all of the negative stereotypes that haunt the FOSS/Linux community.
The implications of outcasting new/novice users are massive, and is one of the reasons why Linux continues to have such a low market share. FOSS/Linux will never see mainstream adoption if the only thing people know about it is how shitty and unhelpful the community is. I really want to someday live in a world where proprietary software *isn’t* the norm (optimism aside, more high quality FOSS = everyone wins) but we’ll never get there if we keep constantly taking steps in the wrong direction.
I’m still a fan of DT and will continue to watch/support the channel (hell, i’m writing this because I genuinely care), but this video was not it. I really hope that moving forward he puts more thought into what impact his videos has on the perception of the Linux community as a whole.
@@fsktt Well said.
UI/UX developers: how should we layout our buttons for the most understandable and easy experience?
DT: why don't you just search the things you don't know you don't know for the ecosystem specific to your system and then run this completely foreign command in this text interface you've never used before? You must be trolling if that's not obvious to you
as much as a love DT, he seemed so out of touch this video... really quite sad about it tbh
That mistake with apt-get is legit, also happened to me when I first tried a arch distro, I even had problems instaling a program in a debian based os because it wasn't available at debian repository, just at ubuntu's, and since most of us start at ubuntu or other derivative os that is also common
Of course, it is. To think otherwise is just ridiculous! apt-get is one of the most famous Linux commands as Ubuntu is the most used distro, it's basically synonymous with repository installation. Even people who don't use Linux know about that command. I imagine this is a very common issue with newbie users using a non-Debian distribution, and to think this is not a problem just shows how far removed DT really is.
In my opinion, there should be a standardized command for repository-based installations to avoid confusion(non of this Yum, Pacman, Pamac bullcrap), and apt-get seems like the most logical and respectable for it.
What are you talking about “there’s no Windows-community”? The biggest ones are Windows of course.