God bless Seattle's mountaineering scene. Apparently Seattlites are the only people who can make a straight forward yet thorough video on crevasse rescue. Thank you so much for making this video and well done. I get it now.
In a mountaineering scenario you would more than likely have crampons on, are you still supposed to step on the rope with crampons on as a backup @lukemtb?
Yo Luke and team - awesome job on this video! It has been a very useful resource for me the last 2 years for my Denali team last year and Rainier team this year. Perfect brush-up skill video for those who have taken a formal course.
Thanks for the clear camera work, the step by step sequence, the setup and the voice over. Since there are many ways of achieving the same result, here are my two cents: 1) metal to metal = not cool. (Red biner on blue / green biner). I'd prefer red biner on the second anchor or over both webbing. 2) instead of pulling by hand, the rescuers can also attach the rope to hip and walk away from the fallen climber.
@inboulder Why do you see metal-on-metal as an issue? The anchors aren't fully equalized so we shouldn't see cross-loading, even if they were the angle is small that the effects of cross-loading wouldn't have an practical impact in this scenario. For prussik backup see annotation at 2:50. For climber communication see annotation at 5:42. On ice, screws/v-threads may be used.
Instead of a pulley and a fig 8 on a loop can u use a petzel micro? and can 1 use the middle persons overhand knot otr however they ties in as the anchor instead of the prosik for an anchor?
perform a rescue of these characteristics depends basically on the ability of people to provide a simple, easy and safe solution with the resources and conditions they face. from Colombia (s.a) god job guys !!
Overall, a very nice presentation on a complex topic. A few (opinionated) comments from a guy who knows this topic well: - I LOVE the anchor and sound effects at 1:36! - Grace has a long dangling blue sling, better shorten that up of she will trip for sure. - The end climbers are not carrying extra rope in a coil. What are they going to do if the middle person fall sin and need a 3:1 Z to get them out? With out carrying coils, nothing.
Well shot and mostly very clear- kinda glossed over the prussic minding pulley though- which is key because it is what sucks up the rope you have pulled through (this could also be a garda hitch as well
@johngo6283, thanks for the comments. To respond to some of your comments: - Re. hauling with legs. It depends on how much weight/friction are you against. We have tried live load with gloved hands. Yes it was hard. Pulling with legs is more efficient. - Re. 1" webbing. No I never carry them on climbs. I couldn't find green 9/16" but still wanted to color match. It was shot in a basement anyway so I thought it wasn't a big deal being a little unrealistic w.r.t. webbing choices :)
Ideally, I would load the initial anchor with an LRH, build a deaman anchor, and transfer the load to the second anchor and abandon the first one. The inital anchor is a vertical placement of an ice axe and I don't see a lot of value compared to a deadman. However, this requies additional gear (cordelette) and skills (tying an LRH), which is beyond the scope of the course we teach.
Best instructional video on a Z-pulley rescue I've found - good job! To clarify - there is nothing done to equalize the weight-bearing between the initial anchor and the primary anchor - so the primary anchor works strictly as a backup in case the initial anchor fails, correct?
Reading down the comments, someone else brought up the initial anchor's weakness as just a vertical axe. Is the only reason for this choice of placement a time issue? Would a deadman not be the preferred method.
Affirmative, vertical placement is much quicker. I can see a case for a deadman, however, if the climber's self arrest is super solid. Of course snow conditions would dictate if a vertical placement is at all appropriate (in super soft snow, it's probably going to have low efficacy). There's a delicate balance of speed vs. level of "bomb-proofness" here. Having been in a crevasse when freezing cold, I personally would accept some trade-offs in favor of speed.
Nice work guys!! and it looks very doable when your 3 climbers. but mots people around here travel in pairs. would be interesting to see how it would work with 2! cheers
@johngo6283, continue... Re. chest prusik/waist prusik. I guess we use different terminologies here. For reasons beyond me we call it chest prusik (maybe it's in front of the chest?) in the course. I'm not defending the terminology but don't think it's a big deal. The webbing you wear on the chest is called "chest harness" in our terminology.
Yes, this video was not intended to cover all scenarios of crevasse rescue. Perhaps in subsequent videos we can address 6-9:1 and other scenarios as well. I think it's good feedback to clarify the scope/context of the video though. For most these systems are very difficult for new mountaineers/alpinist to get their head around, so this video attempts to offer a clearer introduction to the fundamentals. Keep the feedback coming.
@johngo6283, continue ... Re. anchor rigging. I know this is not the best solution w.r.t biner loading and equalization. If you keep the two anchors as in-line as possible, cross loading shouldn't be too bad. We are talking about forces in the range of 2-3 kN here.
Really great video. It appears that the note that comes on at 2:45 in the upper left hand corner of the screen is incorrect. It should either refer to Grace (rear climber in green) or Brook (middle climber in blue). It refers to Grace (middle climber in green). Other than that, thanks!!
Re. lack of extra coils. Again, we need to put it into context. In this course, we would ALWAYS travel with at least two rope teams. In the worse case, they would resort to another rope. Even with one rope, as long as either end person is not on the edge of the crevasses, they can still raise with a 3:1 with some load releasing and some resets. If both of them are on the edge, they need to rap into the crevasse and build anchors on the vertical wall, which makes things much more complicated.
enjoyed this and the fun commentary re internet pedantry in the notes. legit loled at ""This takes place in a parking lot - I think roping up in this setting is overkill"
thanks for this btw... please do show us how to do a 5:1 system ... also, can you show us a demo on how to do rope work over a crevasse? how do you deal with excess slack ?
I assume you noticed that Red was "Ryan", Blue was "Brooks", and Green was "Grace"? Hint: there's a mnemonic device there. ;-) But yes, it could be simpler.
I doubt that Brooke and Grace would be able to haul Ryan's weight with a 3:1 system. A 9:1 is a more likely starting point (if you placed another "Z" on the first "Z" you'd have a compound 9:1 system). I think it's important to show climbers how to achieve additional mechanical advantage for this reason.
- Ouch, that green 1" webbing has got to go. Do people really bring this on climbs? - Clipping biner to biner is totally okay, as long as they are lockers. But in this video, at 3:54 there is some some cross loading on the biner gates I am not too thrilled about. Adding a locking biner here with th epully would be a fine idea. - Using a cordelette rather then 2 slings gives a master point and a shelf which simplifies the rigging a lot.
- hauling with hands at 7:22, no way will that work. The pullers should prusik into the haul rope and haul with their leg and body weight, not with their hands and forearms - nice vertical wall at 7:27! - nice addition at 8:02, by retying a backup fig 8 while the hauling pulley is reset, this is not taught very often and a good idea. - narrator keeps talking about a chest prusik, I think e meas waist prusik.
I am a person very passionate about this industry if you're still productive with your channel I will engage in a conversation with you any day anytime 24 hours a day 7 days a week I'm from Fairfield county of Connecticut and I am the builder of a mechanical device that is more stronger and more heavier than the most which implements to the climber that there's a secure product waiting at their attachment point to be illustrated with the bigger muscle groups of the body which will entertain future education processes that we were unable to receive in the past. #zrunner #zrunnersrs
All that safety is useless when you have a disaster waiting to happen in your system. Carabiner to carabiner is no bueno... especially on a haul pulley. Tri-axial loading can cause the whole system to fail, which wire gates easily do. Carry a couple auto-lockers for rescues, and clip to the anchor webbing (with gates opposing), for your buddies sake.
Thanks for the comments, heavyswimmer. With this setup tri-axial or x-loading would be unlikely as the the anchors aren't fully equalized, and the prusik + the anchor wouldn't be loaded at the same time. Freeze 7:47 to see how loading plays out. That said as Deling commented below, ideally you would use a load releasing hitch on anchor 1 (quick vertical ice axe anchor), release onto anchor 2 (solid deadman), and configure the biners/backups separately. I'm going to itemize known issues/clarifications in the description. It'd be nice to create a V2 of this video in an actual crevasse with some corrections/clarifications. I also think showing the system w/o backups first (then add backups) provides a clearer demonstration of how things work.
God bless Seattle's mountaineering scene. Apparently Seattlites are the only people who can make a straight forward yet thorough video on crevasse rescue. Thank you so much for making this video and well done. I get it now.
Fantastic video. Well done. The use of different colors of the slings and biners really helps for clarity. I appreciate you posting this.
Excellent video lesson for all mountaineers. I have searching for this topic 2 years.
Thanks a lot.
In a mountaineering scenario you would more than likely have crampons on, are you still supposed to step on the rope with crampons on as a backup @lukemtb?
Thank you for making this video even under rain
Yo Luke and team - awesome job on this video! It has been a very useful resource for me the last 2 years for my Denali team last year and Rainier team this year. Perfect brush-up skill video for those who have taken a formal course.
By far the best tutorial on youtube! No skipping steps, slow and simple! THANK YOU!
Thanks for the clear camera work, the step by step sequence, the setup and the voice over. Since there are many ways of achieving the same result, here are my two cents:
1) metal to metal = not cool. (Red biner on blue / green biner). I'd prefer red biner on the second anchor or over both webbing.
2) instead of pulling by hand, the rescuers can also attach the rope to hip and walk away from the fallen climber.
Thank you for the thorough walkthrough. I appreciated the effort put into the filming and editing. Well done!
@inboulder Why do you see metal-on-metal as an issue? The anchors aren't fully equalized so we shouldn't see cross-loading, even if they were the angle is small that the effects of cross-loading wouldn't have an practical impact in this scenario. For prussik backup see annotation at 2:50. For climber communication see annotation at 5:42. On ice, screws/v-threads may be used.
Instead of a pulley and a fig 8 on a loop can u use a petzel micro? and can 1 use the middle persons overhand knot otr however they ties in as the anchor instead of the prosik for an anchor?
where was this video when I took Basic???
perform a rescue of these characteristics depends basically on the ability of people to provide a simple, easy and safe solution with the resources and conditions they face. from Colombia (s.a) god job guys !!
- Ryan's leg prusik seems to be taped up to keep it out of the way, this is an excellent idea and rarely done, good job.
Overall, a very nice presentation on a complex topic. A few (opinionated) comments from a guy who knows this topic well:
- I LOVE the anchor and sound effects at 1:36!
- Grace has a long dangling blue sling, better shorten that up of she will trip for sure.
- The end climbers are not carrying extra rope in a coil. What are they going to do if the middle person fall sin and need a 3:1 Z to get them out? With out carrying coils, nothing.
can you use a carabiner instead of a pulley if you didnt have one?
By far best instructional iv seen!
Hope to see more!
Well shot and mostly very clear- kinda glossed over the prussic minding pulley though- which is key because it is what sucks up the rope you have pulled through (this could also be a garda hitch as well
#zrunnerselfrescuesystem the program for people to get out of high story buildings during fire related scenarios. please help me share this info. ♥️♥️
@johngo6283, thanks for the comments. To respond to some of your comments:
- Re. hauling with legs. It depends on how much weight/friction are you against. We have tried live load with gloved hands. Yes it was hard. Pulling with legs is more efficient.
- Re. 1" webbing. No I never carry them on climbs. I couldn't find green 9/16" but still wanted to color match. It was shot in a basement anyway so I thought it wasn't a big deal being a little unrealistic w.r.t. webbing choices :)
Ideally, I would load the initial anchor with an LRH, build a deaman anchor, and transfer the load to the second anchor and abandon the first one. The inital anchor is a vertical placement of an ice axe and I don't see a lot of value compared to a deadman. However, this requies additional gear (cordelette) and skills (tying an LRH), which is beyond the scope of the course we teach.
excellent camera work and narration. Thanks for this.
Best instructional video on a Z-pulley rescue I've found - good job! To clarify - there is nothing done to equalize the weight-bearing between the initial anchor and the primary anchor - so the primary anchor works strictly as a backup in case the initial anchor fails, correct?
stevenjkayser yes
Reading down the comments, someone else brought up the initial anchor's weakness as just a vertical axe. Is the only reason for this choice of placement a time issue? Would a deadman not be the preferred method.
Affirmative, vertical placement is much quicker. I can see a case for a deadman, however, if the climber's self arrest is super solid. Of course snow conditions would dictate if a vertical placement is at all appropriate (in super soft snow, it's probably going to have low efficacy). There's a delicate balance of speed vs. level of "bomb-proofness" here. Having been in a crevasse when freezing cold, I personally would accept some trade-offs in favor of speed.
Very good demonstration
Nice work guys!!
and it looks very doable when your 3 climbers. but mots people around here travel in pairs.
would be interesting to see how it would work with 2!
cheers
@johngo6283, continue...
Re. chest prusik/waist prusik. I guess we use different terminologies here. For reasons beyond me we call it chest prusik (maybe it's in front of the chest?) in the course. I'm not defending the terminology but don't think it's a big deal. The webbing you wear on the chest is called "chest harness" in our terminology.
Finally, a DECENT z pulley demonstration. I can't believe it's taken this long to have one posted that is worth a crap.
Yes, this video was not intended to cover all scenarios of crevasse rescue. Perhaps in subsequent videos we can address 6-9:1 and other scenarios as well. I think it's good feedback to clarify the scope/context of the video though. For most these systems are very difficult for new mountaineers/alpinist to get their head around, so this video attempts to offer a clearer introduction to the fundamentals. Keep the feedback coming.
@johngo6283, continue ...
Re. anchor rigging. I know this is not the best solution w.r.t biner loading and equalization. If you keep the two anchors as in-line as possible, cross loading shouldn't be too bad. We are talking about forces in the range of 2-3 kN here.
Great job guys! Super informative and well put together.
Really great video. It appears that the note that comes on at 2:45 in the upper left hand corner of the screen is incorrect. It should either refer to Grace (rear climber in green) or Brook (middle climber in blue). It refers to Grace (middle climber in green). Other than that, thanks!!
really well explained and made simple - perfect
Re. lack of extra coils. Again, we need to put it into context. In this course, we would ALWAYS travel with at least two rope teams. In the worse case, they would resort to another rope. Even with one rope, as long as either end person is not on the edge of the crevasses, they can still raise with a 3:1 with some load releasing and some resets. If both of them are on the edge, they need to rap into the crevasse and build anchors on the vertical wall, which makes things much more complicated.
brilliantly explained, very pedagogic
Great video, clear explanation. Thank you.
enjoyed this and the fun commentary re internet pedantry in the notes. legit loled at ""This takes place in a parking lot - I think roping up in this setting is overkill"
Fantastic effort and detail on this video. Thanks. Sending to my rafting friends.
My god that's confusing ,,, but I loved watching it all ...
You can pretty easily do this with just prusiks
thanks for this btw... please do show us how to do a 5:1 system ... also, can you show us a demo on how to do rope work over a crevasse? how do you deal with excess slack ?
Excellent video, thank you.
Search vimeo's site for "Swapping Leads on Multi-Pitch Trad Routes"
Thanks. Yes I think it was a mistake to use names instead of just "green climber" or "middle climber". Simpler is better.
I assume you noticed that Red was "Ryan", Blue was "Brooks", and Green was "Grace"? Hint: there's a mnemonic device there. ;-) But yes, it could be simpler.
I doubt that Brooke and Grace would be able to haul Ryan's weight with a 3:1 system. A 9:1 is a more likely starting point (if you placed another "Z" on the first "Z" you'd have a compound 9:1 system). I think it's important to show climbers how to achieve additional mechanical advantage for this reason.
Thanks for sharing. That was a great vid.
And now I remember why I need to go practice this....
well made, thks
really good explain video, keep going !
- Ouch, that green 1" webbing has got to go. Do people really bring this on climbs?
- Clipping biner to biner is totally okay, as long as they are lockers. But in this video, at 3:54 there is some some cross loading on the biner gates I am not too thrilled about. Adding a locking biner here with th epully would be a fine idea.
- Using a cordelette rather then 2 slings gives a master point and a shelf which simplifies the rigging a lot.
@o4show its true but its funny how they can do this but cant drive in snow at all ;)
- hauling with hands at 7:22, no way will that work. The pullers should prusik into the haul rope and haul with their leg and body weight, not with their hands and forearms
- nice vertical wall at 7:27!
- nice addition at 8:02, by retying a backup fig 8 while the hauling pulley is reset, this is not taught very often and a good idea.
- narrator keeps talking about a chest prusik, I think e meas waist prusik.
A 6:1 would be sufficient and is much quicker to achieve.
I am a person very passionate about this industry if you're still productive with your channel I will engage in a conversation with you any day anytime 24 hours a day 7 days a week I'm from Fairfield county of Connecticut and I am the builder of a mechanical device that is more stronger and more heavier than the most which implements to the climber that there's a secure product waiting at their attachment point to be illustrated with the bigger muscle groups of the body which will entertain future education processes that we were unable to receive in the past.
#zrunner #zrunnersrs
excellent video
the best one on youtube
I would give you ten thumbs up if it was possible
phuck the rain
All that safety is useless when you have a disaster waiting to happen in your system. Carabiner to carabiner is no bueno... especially on a haul pulley. Tri-axial loading can cause the whole system to fail, which wire gates easily do. Carry a couple auto-lockers for rescues, and clip to the anchor webbing (with gates opposing), for your buddies sake.
Thanks for the comments, heavyswimmer. With this setup tri-axial or x-loading would be unlikely as the the anchors aren't fully equalized, and the prusik + the anchor wouldn't be loaded at the same time. Freeze 7:47 to see how loading plays out. That said as Deling commented below, ideally you would use a load releasing hitch on anchor 1 (quick vertical ice axe anchor), release onto anchor 2 (solid deadman), and configure the biners/backups separately. I'm going to itemize known issues/clarifications in the description. It'd be nice to create a V2 of this video in an actual crevasse with some corrections/clarifications. I also think showing the system w/o backups first (then add backups) provides a clearer demonstration of how things work.