I forgot about this until now - speaking of Susie not entering the diner because of Catti, we do see her in the diner in one of the chapter 4 teasers from the 2022 anniversary status update. Catti isn’t visible in the screenshot but if she were working at the time she’d be covered up by the textbox anyway. Maybe those two are on better terms as of chapter 4 post-dark world. Also, some people are confused about 13:20 - I am not talking about Kriselle in general, nor is the pairing genuinely heterosexual. The roles they are forced into in the Snowgrave route can be read into as resembling an “abusive heterosexual (patriarchal) marriage”. None of that is really important to my thesis, it was just an aside I made, but I think some people took “heterosexual” out of the context of the surrounding phrase and/or applied the statement to Kriselle as a general ship outside of Snowgrave.
i have an important question. what exactly about kris and noelle in snowgrave can be read as heterosexual? me and a buddy put a lot of time into thinking about this interpretation, and we couldnt make any sense of it without making fallacious arguments. if you could shed some light on it, i'd really appreciate it! my friend's a huge noelle fan and it'd really help this big document he's writing about her. thank you ^^
@@FirstnameLastname-sb3hj i was thinking the same. Like i get what they mean by the patriarchal roles and whatever but does anything really communicate that that is the intended read about their dynamic in the weird route? Because everything i can think of just points to it being an allegory for abusive relationships of any kind. Does it seem specifically "patriarchal" or "heterosexual" because Noelle is a fem-presenting person while Kris often interpreted as more """masc""" by some people (which is something that is not even true since Kris has presented themself so androgynous up to this point, so this is just the product of binarism prevalent in the fandom), and that this makes it easier for people to identify them with the abusive-man and abused-woman dynamic of traditional patriarchal couples? To me that just seems like maybe traditional gender roles being subconsciously applied to Kriselle's relationship, since theres really no interaction between them that parallels the inherent sexism and machismo of an abusive patriarchal het couple. But I'd really love to hear their arguments in case im missing something. Its been a while since ive played snowgrave.
And i want to clarify im not being accusatory either, id really love to know what the other perspective is, and even in the worst case scenario i really understand that deconstructing gender roles in one's mind is no easy feat at all. Also sorry if what i wrote is completely incomprehensible lol English is not my first language.
the Noelle choking Berdly thing is similar to people thinking Kris doesn't like hugs because of what Asgore said even though the original quote is "i forgot if you don"t like hugs LIKE THAT" but people act like Kris hates all hugs
Considering their mother hugs them similarly, perhaps it’s less that they dont like hugs and more symbolic in nature. Maybe they feel they’re coddled or being overly protected. Maybe they feel like they’re restricted, etc. I don’t like the idea of Kris being hugged by their mom as if she doesn’t know better.
It's like people forget Gorey was canonically one of the strongest monsters in UT! He's a boss monster so he's probably unaware of his own strength. At least I hope that's the case, and not to do with how Kris sees their Dad after the divorce and whatever he did to lose his badge.
@@vanilabeans2186 Honestly I think is just this... I mean Toriel hugs Kris very softly and gently, and Asgore lifted them from the ground and squished them like a teddy bear xD. Is like completely different, and people still don´t get it hahaha. Very strong people can give too strong hugs and those can hurt.
Absolutely in love with the idea Susie being the object of everyone's attractions, and just having such low self-esteem that she doesn't accept it. It feels both funny, and like it could set up some genuinely heart wrenching scenes when she learns how much she means to everyone.
Hoenstly I don't even think the Noelle throttling Berdly scene even needed acknowledgement, it's so clearly a bit and doesn't affect their dynamic in any way come the end of the chapter 😭
i really dont know why people took it so seriously. undertale was known for its over the top bits and deltarune is too. i always just thought it was hilarious and left it at that.
Like, Toby is being silly. He is making the funny. Everyone likes seeing Berdly get a little throttled. Hell, apparently people like seeing Berdly get frozen to death and his corpse getting encased in ice if the memes about Snowgrave are anything to go by.
15:08 A really important little detail here is Noelle doesn't kill Spamton with Snowgrave, she uses Iceshock instead. Even when the player is directly calling for her, she's still somewhat able to resist using the spell that very clearly traumatised her.
I always thought the "me too" at the end of the ferris wheel scene was a reciprocation of love, but idk You're spot on on susie and noelle having main plot relevance. Theres a sketch in the undertale artbook of a lizard creature fighting a 4 winged antlered angel in an ice cave.
i think they're teenagers. which is to say, no shit their relationships are kinda messed up sometimes, they haven't learned how to deal with this shit yet.
yeah, teenagers and even adults could have a crush in people they know for a FACT they do bad and messed up things. Like that whole "I can fix them" or "I don't want to fix them, I want them to break me" is because people are attracted to what is bad, even when good natured
@@leonelzubieta8636 yeah so what all relationships end anyways, literally, "till death do us part" the experience and the journey tends to be worth it tho
Man, I am not joking when I say I would watch a 3 hour long video essay about you talking about Deltarune characters. I eat this stuff up and you explain everything so well
I really hope that Noelle eventually becomes a party member with Kris, Susie, and Ralsei. A 4-person battle system would be so cool. Kris would be the leader, Susie would be the tank person who hits very hard, Ralsei would be the healer, and Noelle would be the magic wielder/spell caster.
It'd be fun for like a one-off battle for sure! I honestly wish rpgs with a party limit system would have a fight where it forces you to use more than the regular amount just temporarily.
Tbh, probably won’t happen. Or if it does, it wasn’t planned in advance. Toby admitted he wanted to have Berdly take part in the final fight with a 4 person fight but couldn’t figure out how to program him into the battle. so he just made Queen do the “look behind you!” strategy. I hope Noelle becomes a bigger part of the upcoming chapters for sure.
Something else about Noelle's scene with Berdly after the Ferris Wheel is that Noelle is still under the assumption this is a dream. Thusly, she assumes Berdly is her dreams version of Berdly. If I was dreaming and my best friend said "hey btw I no longer have a crush on you, instead I'm now crushing on YOUR crush" I think a lot of people would respond in a similar way of "WHAT?"
I like these two. But no matter whether their relationship becomes romantic or stays platonic I'm most excited to see how their dynamic changes depending on which route you're on.
@@Youaveragecountryhumansfan Ralsei is not mentioned often as he is mostly sidelined out of the Susie harem group since he lacks an identity beyond serving lightners.
It’s interesting that both Susie and Noelle can kind of “break” the constraints of what’s going on, albeit in different ways (coincidentally both are gamers who play RPG games) based on their personality. Susie doesn’t have to listen to the party’s leader (atypical of most party RPG games). Both Susie and Ralsei elect to listen to Kris. Noelle joins the party and is controllable and will obey whatever you decide, which is different from Susie. But she’s also capable of breaking the game, in an almost horror creepypasta/glitches way. She can jump over or push cones as well to get into inaccessible areas. In a way, these “game mechanics” also strike a resemblance to the ability of Kris to “save” (something they can do independent of the player. Which also makes me think Ralsei’s ability to make “cutscenes” where the player sees something independent of Kris and relay information to the player and Kris. I wonder if Berdley has something similar, or if it’s just these 4 characters. Most of this has nothing to do with your ship video, but something you said inspired this train of thought.
Noelle DOES have determination levels similar to Kris, according to Queen. Monsters can embody DT in this universe just as well as humans, unlike UT. Burghley doesn't get the prompt to really use his DT like Kris and Noelle do. If he somehow makes it into future dark worlds maybe he'll be a party member?
I like the idea of the characters having control over the Dark World in different ways. Genuinely don't think I've ever heard that before. Major credit to you, & I hope this ends up being a real thing and not just your headcanon lol.
as someone who is an aspiring writer, this is eye opening in the sense that i did not realise how much people overthink things like short 30 second gags or character interactions. Like legitimately toby most likely wrote the scene of noelle offering to switch seats as a "she's just trying to help kris out but is still also interested to learn more about susie herself" but the fandom's like "NO THIS IS A SIGN THAT SHE'S SECRETLY A MASOCHIST AND WANTS SUSIE TO HURT HER" which is certainly a very staggering position to see people taking.
I agree that the fandom is looking too much into it, and that Noelle is most certainly NOT that but what is wrong with liking BDSM stuff anyway? Deltarune and Undertale already explores a lot of controversial ideas and humanizes them, like gay relationships, furries, (referring to So Sorry who yes I know did bad things outside of the game, but that wasn't known yet when he was put in in the first place) and people who just tend to feel like social outcasts in general, so I feel like it'd be cool if it had that actually be Noelle's "kink" in a sense. And show it's not necessarily a bad thing to have those types of interests unless you take it too far. I don't think that's what's going to happen, as this is a rated t game but I'm just saying I don't think there would necessarily be anything wrong with that.
@@StarwayBunny i don't think there'd be anything wrong with it either! it's just that, when it comes to such themes, it'd be a lot clearer than this. It's a neat idea but i feel as though the reasoning for drawing this conclusion is... Kind of ludicrous, and is a textbook example of reading so much into something you're practically watching a completely different scene.
i hate hate hate HATE so much how seriously some people in the deltarune community take the characters in aspects that are just so clearly not what the writing of the game is going for. like calling susie x noelle... toxic??? or hating on berdly with a genuine passion like he's some kind of real life incel creep and not just a light-hearted depiction of a self absorbed nerd who's actually just insecure. there's so many other examples of stuff like this i've seen... stuff like people thinking toriel is homophobic?? how does anyone come to that conclusion?? i usually hate it when people bring up fandoms and generalize them but lately the deltarune and undertale fandoms have really been frustrating me lol
@@Paleowgh Idk. When I first heard of it, it was from like a thread on twitter or something about how they think Toriel is actually implied homophobic and how they think it will actually be a plot point in Deltarune or something. And I'm just like... How delusional are you honestly like what. Homophobia basically doesn't even exist in the Undertale world bro
i love how level headed and neutral your commentary is! i find it hard not to find polarizing takes in any fandom and this feels like a nice, objective stance
One thing I feel like is overlooked is that Susie most likely projects her feelings onto others and has a habit of lashing out and yet she never targets Noelle. If we want to read into this then she loves Noelle more than she hates herself and hasn't realized it yet.
Note that with both kris and ralsei keeping BIG secrets from her, a harsh reveal might send susie into an aggressive panic state that only Noelle is situated to pull her out of. If Noelle's mental state is unbalanced enough when susie is vulnerable... Hoo boy. But on a lighter note, Susie has two confirmed suitors by chapter 2. How high will that number rise when she takes a single shower? When she personally saves catti and popular kid jockington? When the class sees her throw an axe into a titanic monster mid-Roaring? Susie is the protagonist of deltarune, and every cliche anime has a harem subplot.
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!! I'm so tired of seeing awful awful takes on Suselle, and Noelle in general. Thank you thank you thank you. Also, my personal headcanon on what happened in Noelle's room on the Weird Route is that when Susie told Noelle it was all a dream, she was like "Oh, I'm so relieved, I could just-!" and then kissed Susie several times, not even because of her romantic feelings towards her, just because she was so utterly relieved that all those horrible things were just a terrible nightmare, and soon she'd wake up everything would be ok again. But, I also really like your comments on the future of their relationship in the weird route - it would be really interesting if, in the weird route, they get together quicker, but break apart by the end of the game because they rushed into it and things got messy, whereas in the regular route they get time to build a relationship. Sort of like, the weird route gives you that instant gratification, but without the positive long-term outcome.
My thoughts exactly on. Yeah Noelle is an example of many traditional feminine characters getting shit on more then usual, but that a whole another issue
I don't like the ship because Toby decided to write those vlog thingies and Noelle is a absolute creep in them, it made me really dislike her when otherwise in the game I liked her.
5:07 I've always thought that, when Kris tells Noelle about Susie eating chalk, the way the line is written implies Noelle very much knew Susie was taking the chalk, she just didn't know WHAT she was doing with it. If she didn't know I figure the line would rather be written more like "Wait, she was eating... chalk?" or something similar to imply she didn't know anything about that. I honestly think EVERYONE knew Susie was taking it, even Alphys who's just spineless and wouldn't call her out on it anyway, because Susie's a delinquent to them and it seems like something she'd do to disrupt the class. The idea that the blog entries aren't of the current timeline is super interesting and one I never considered!! But I do think the chalk comment is misinterpreted just a smidge? Noelle is smart and clearly infatuated with Susie at this point, I figure she'd be able to figure out that it's Susie stealing the chalk especially if she's taken special interest in her. I just don't think anyone's first assumption is gonna be that said thief is EATING the chalk lmao, so she's reasonably surprised
Honestly this video made Suselle click for me. I’ve understood the appeal before but I’ve never noticed how Noelle and Susie just complete eachother like puzzle pieces until this video. Makes me definitely think it’s gonna be canon
Yeah, I never considered the idea of it being related to the shadow crystals. I’m honestly glad, cuz that means whatever is in there will be brought up in some capacity again. My only issue with the Spamton Sweepstakes is that the info revealed in the ARG wouldn’t be accessible to new players. If it becomes relevant in such a way later on in game, that would be cool
@@diamondmemer9754 honestly, the blogposts are even dumber like, literally in chapter 1 if you tell Noelle that Susie is terrible she's surprised, she didn't know she was actually bad so the fact that Noelle supposedly watched Susie brutally bullying Kris doesn't align with what the game have showed us at all. and i also think the newest girl just doesn't make sense because Noelle saw things she shouldn't be supposed to see if she was actually looking through the class' frosted window/
@@albarikrisey she's surprised because she felt that she wasn't actually a bad person, they probably had more interactions beside that one, if the blogposts aren't canon then I don't see the point of their existence
i got over the mic quality real quick after what a great rundown and general archive of pre-chapter 3 susie and noelle interactions this video is. really fucking good. thank you so much for this.
@@demetriam2408 There is so much relating Papyrus and Mettaton together though, way too much for 2 characters that didnt interact in the game at all Unless you count an indirect kiss, they are both the only non-dog characters that will catch the stick with their mouth if you throw it at them
@@doodoo2065 There's also the fact he has MTT branded something during the fight, and I'm also pretty sure it states during his hangout that he watches MTT shows. There is an odd amount of connectivity between Papyrus and Mettaton.
suselle sold me more based off of the snowgrave route recontextualize a lot of noelle's behavior. She doesn't like the winter months because it reminds her of her lost sister. The festive nature of the season repels her because of the negative feelings it invites. She instead finds herself attracted to the occult and the supernatural. The scary, dangerous, and frightening. All conditions fulfilled by winter's neighboring season, fall. More specifically, Halloween. Noelle crushes on Susie not just because of a timid gay feeling, she crushes on her because Susie is a *bad girl*, a *scary girl*, in a school full of goody toeshoes monsters. It's a somewhat toxic attraction. While it's played for wholesome points in the natural route, it gets a lot of nuance taking into account Noelle's fascination with the occult and her trauma. This is a far cry of depth compared to Undertale's Alphys and Undyne where it mostly just culminated in jokey cringe from an Otaku and a Jock both inexperienced in love getting together.
oh my god, never made the connection of her attachment to occult/supernatural/etc with halloween, the very last major stop of the year BEFORE the winter months... like fixating on / getting drawn to the time right before everything went wrong and awful.... love it
People need remember platonic shipping exist Edit: This video is well made btw Edit edit: Kris might not have a crush on Susie,sure the tea leave is high but they still could see Susie as a friend
You know, I really hate this attitude, amongst young fans mostly, that a ship has to be perfect clean and wholesome and never do anything that can even be perceived as problematic otherwise it's Bad. Calling Noelle a stalker is such a stretch!
annoys me too. i see it in almost every fandom nowadays. and its like...i get the ickiness if its incest or something, but just about every ship to people seems "problematic" in one way or another. and often, its argued purely because the person just doesnt like it. what happened to the whole "dont like dont interact" thing?
oh my gods, i think some people are really taking things too seriously. Noelle strangling Birdley is, first and foremost, HILARIOUS. Noelle very likely has a crush on Susie because, despite being this big, mean, tough gal (on the surface), who is rude and scary to everyone else, still chose to show Noelle kindness. That's a great trope, I am not accepting any criticism. Also, all of the characters are exaggerations of who they would be irl, so WHAT if someone wants to be stepped on, even though it's clear that's very likely not going to happen since Susie does not want to hurt Noelle, it's media to be enjoyed, it's not propaganda. Damn people relax. And it's wild that it's ME who has to be saying this (if you know, you know). Great video, honestly, excellent take due to your no-nonsense approach.
Also, if some people are getting their panties in a twist over "uhhh this ship toxic", what about Snowgrave??? Where we take control of the player character (Kris), make them do our bidding and manipulate their friend (Noelle) by abusing her and turning her into a pawn, all the while Kris looks on in horror?? Hypocritical? Nitpicky? It seems so.
And yeah, Noelle's character isn't "chick who has a crush on Susie", it's *so much more complex,* I can't believe people don't see that. If anything, her having a crush on Susie is a perfectly complimentary addition to her as a person, it makes full sense based on her trauma, based on her personal tastes, based on the expectations people force on her, based on her interests, and so on. She's by far one of the most compelling and extensively written characters in Deltarune. I think (and hope) she'll have a much larger role later on and that she lives up to the near main character status.
"force a lesbian and her non binary friend into an abusive heterosexual marriage coded relationship" Toby literally made the Geno route homophobic and transphobic LMAOOO
I think that reading is INCREDIBLY unfair to Toby and the story at large. Like the weird route is messed up but I don't think its THAT messed up. It feels unecessarily cruel for me to believe its the case.
@@skyrimlover777? Not sure I follow. How is it cruel for Toby to portray forcing 2 queer friends into an extrenely hetero coded dynamic where one of them is actively physically suffering from in, and both are drastically mentally and emotionally sufferimg from it
Kris is very obviously interested in Susie, Noelle is very obviously interested in Susie, _Ralsei_ might potentially be interested in Susie, fucking- who knows, Jockington might be interested in Susie "Who gets to be with Susie" is either going to break the fandom, be the Player's choice for who gets to date the lizard, or is going to result in the largest polycule you've ever seen and I will take no other answers
@@ambers6789 There are a nnnNUMBER of things implying that Kris is into Susie! Buuut there's too many to list in just one youtube comment, so I'll just being up the N3W3ST_G1RL_G1RL scene where Susie takes a bite from an apple, throws it at Kris, and then they take _another_ bite from said apple. Literally an indirect kiss Keeping with the theme of apples, that's a notable motif they share. Susie likes apples. Kris smells like apples. There's the aforementioned indirect kiss with an apple. Kris Tea is apple juice to Susie, which she is *exactly* as excited to drink over as Noelle Tea's eggnog. (Literally exactly, it's the same reaction from her to both Teas, just with two different nouns 😭) And now that I've mentioned the Character Teas I can't *not* bring up Kris' reaction to the Susie Tea. Just... _glancing_ at her, seemingly slyly based on Ralsei's comment of "they seem into it" and Susie's flustered "STOP LOOKING AT ME!!" And all that's not even MENTIONING the countless little, _little_ reactions Kris has to things about Susie sprinkled throughout just Chapters 1 and 2 alone. I.E., Susie commenting on Kris not seeming confused or frustrated when you select _Susie_ as the one they'd bring to the Carnival at the end of Chapter 2. She comments about Kris seeming frustrated or confused if you decide for them to bring Noelle or Ralsei, _but not Susie._ Interesting. There's also the whole thing where Kris leaps in front of Chaos King's bullets to protect her entirely without player input, _Susie's own_ wildly different reactions to the Superbosses being dependent on whether or not Kris was in danger, etc. etc. the list goes _on._ phew that is an essay im sorry 💀
I know a video is good when halfway through I pause it and turn into one of those edited manga panels with a character crying and saying "It's just so peak...". I was a little wary of this given that I've seen similar video titles in videos that come across as maybe too critical for their own sake, so I'm very pleased that (so far, I haven't finished watching yet) this video seems to be very balanced and thorough in its analysis.
YESSSS YOU HIT ALL THE POINTS I HAD (even the blogpost au theory which i always keep in my brain whenever people mention it to make claims about the interpersonal dynamics) AND EVEN MORE THAT I HADNT CONSIDERED!!!!! (like the take-2 deltarune theory?? thats so cool i will definitely be rotating this in my brain) im really happy to see such a sound and empirical take on suselle. im definitely biased in favor of them because. well. I just really want suselle to win LMAO theyre very important to me. great vid as always
Finally, someone who gets it. Susie isn’t oblivious to Noelle’s feelings, she’s BEWILDERED by them. The idea that someone like Noelle would want to be around her in any capacity, be it platonic or romantic, freaks her out. She doesn’t know how to handle it at all. It isn’t until the ferris wheel that she finds out what Noelle sees in her, and by that time she had already reflexively pushed her away with the whole “it’s a dream” bit, which she ends up regretting. Yeah she’s not showing outright infatuation with Noelle or anything, but we’re watching in real time as the crack Noelle made in Susie’s shell with that pencil gets wider and wider.
ngl I'm kinda disapponted Noelle wasn't choking berdly. I thought that was too funny. But I did know that was out of confusion and shock more than jelously. And I do think the fandom kinda reads into certain things to much. You can't take one instance of a character and just say that is part of their personality. Noelle doesn't hate berdly just because she shook him about. You already listed all the examples pointing in the other direction.
Wow! I love any UT/DR content, but a really thoughtful analysis like this is a special treat! You've got yourself a sub, and I've got myself a real treasure in finding you. Thank you!!
My epic fan-theory is that Catti and Jockington will be party members in chapter 4 or later but instead of them being separate party members they'll function as one unit with Catti wielding Jockington in battle. She's done it in PE before!
13:30 i never even thought of that being what happened, i just assumed it was the same as normal just like, spookier or something thats very interesting
I really appreciate this video lol its really nice to see someone actually outline how interesting both girls are on their own as well as within their relationship. As you said its so rare for sapphic relationships (and even just sapphic characters in general) to get a spot in the limelight but man even when we actually get it... 😮💨
16:32 idk when im gonna get go bring this up so I'll just do it here because its more interesting than just saying "for the algorithm" "school" is such an underrated song its one of my favourites in the ost. Im a sucker for basslines that use semitonal movement. And the drums are some of the most interesting toby has written! The ways if utilizes deltarunes main theme, chefs kiss. Perfection.
I can kinda relate to your thoughts near the end. As someone older who has already experienced relationships, and even is less interested to be in one anymore. I don’t really care for ships. But more so, I’m interested in the relationships, hardships, and seeing eye to eye as people. How will they react? A dreamy, cute, ship that has no issues what so ever. Is the lamest thing to me. Because all relationships are not perfect. It requires common ground, compromises, arguments, but also growing up. If Susie and Noelle do become a thing. I don’t want it to be boring, and especially in same sex relationships. There are even outside issues such as not approving family or other town members not liking it. He could explore many things. Even unrequited love. It’s a thing many people experience. Even in those together. Sometimes one is a lot more committed than the other.
OUGH I NEVER CONSIDERED ANY OF THIS!!!! this actually cuts way deeper into the relationship and is both well thought out and articulated. i didnt really think about suselle a lot before because it felt shallow, but this goes into the Depths of it? it both shows how susie and noelle compliment each other story and motive wise, and what the basis for the relationship even is outside of being cute. the note about susie’s dream lie and how noelle isnt afraid of things she has control over is such a good observation as well it makes so much sense and its really neat!! also the thing about her liking to have control over things or. not being truly afraid of them reminds me of snowgrave though thas kind of obvious. makes me wonder if itll tie in? alsoalso people think suselle is What (referring to abuse?? or stalking??), and alsoalsoalso god i need to get more media literate or analyze things. anyways cool
12:57 Despite loving the ship dearly and hoping they end up together, if one of them rejected the other I could actually see it being Noelle. But only in the Snowgrave route. She may be too emotionally and mentally drained to start a relationship just yet and she has already been shown to be less timid of Susie in this route (all be it in what she perceived to be a dream). Perhaps it could be a way the Snowgrave route really differs from the normal one. It could be a good consequence of the player's actions too. You can't have your cake and get to eat it too.
Your Deltarune analyses are absolutely incredible! You are so good at these kinds of character deep dives, and I hope you make more videos like these in the future. I'll definitely be going back and rewatching this and your Susie + Ralsei video when other chapters are coming out.
Im surprised by how much people misunderstood completely Noelle and thinks that she is toxic or even creppy. I found her kinda cute and just as someone with a lot of behaviors and thoughts that could be perceived as "weird", especially because by her own nature as someone very shy who can get a bit nervous from time to time. I understand that this misconception of hers is related as how we can have a complete different interpretation of each character... but man, i still can't understand why people thinks that she's toxic... for me, there's no way for her to be THAT.
Even as someone who isn’t that big a fan of this pairing, I really love getting to see this deep dive into it. Getting into not only supporting factors for it but how it affects/will affect the broader narrative is a great way to look at shipping.
I still feel like the "Berdly shaking" scene is foreshadowing. It might be a slapstick joke scene by itself, and I don't even think Berdly will show up much in subsequent chapters (he kind of served his purpose and had his whole arc in chapter 2), but I do believe there's potential for a love-triangle conflict, what with Kris being implied to be interested in Susie as well.
Another small comment just to thank you for this video!! I am very fond of Suselle, I think they make a lot of sense and they complement each other in a lot of ways. Even if they end up being just friends but very good friends I would be happy, I am more interested in how that relationship will influence the story. I have tried to explain other people this and you understood it very well!! The potential of an interesting dynamic is right now like ¨theoretical¨, but people are reading the relationship too literal (saying relationship in general, not necesarily romantic).
This is a really refreshing take on suselle imo. I've seen some especially horrid takes in the fandom about the ship, and about a lot of the ships in general, so this was really nice to see
The Noelle choking Berdly thing was always an exaggeration of the joke to me. I knew it was her grabbing his shirt but the mental image of her choking him out of the blue is funnier to me.
I saw a Reddit post that said “The Newest Girl” is a shadow crystal sort of warped perception. Everyone is acting as the “worst versions of themselves” (Susie threatening to eat Kris, Kris laughing in Susie’s face over it and acting overtly cocky with the apple bite, and Noelle being frozen solid by fear and anxiety), so maybe some of the information we got from the Spamton Sweepstakes have that sort of filter applied to it?
6:10 My take on the Noelle being weird about Susie smashing her into lockers or in the ground is that she is... SUPER horny xD like, she imagines Susie smashing her in a locker but like with a hot kiss or something like that, she is not imaging a puch or something really bad. Something I have noticed about DR is that it has more double-meaning humor and sometimes a little sexy. For example all the teasing between Rudy and Asgore that is like joking but also kind of double meaning (Rudy getting mad of Sans giving him peackles, Rudy saying that Asgore is a fruit but hairy like a kiwi, and all the stuff about the flowers Asgore gives him, even Susie comments that is weird and that she is not trying to understand it XD). It annoys me that people right away label the relationship as toxic when the relationship hasn´t even began... I mean they just talked ONE time like for real, and Noelle started to saw that Susie wasn´t that terrible and scary monster but that she was a goofy silly person and also heroic and I think she even liked her more in THAT way than before... Honestly, it would be fine for me if the relationship wasn´t canon, I like them also as friends, but this is not as bad as people picture it lol. Maybe today teens are more conscious about toxic relationships and this is why some people is seeing red flags there but a lot of those things are meant to be funny and to have a double-meaning. Noelle on her blog puts xD and says a lot of things jockingly, so why they take the smash into the lockers and the other ferris wheel scene so seriously?? She is just trailing off into wishful thinking, and she is not imagine Susie smacking her on the floor with pain but with joy... You know what kind xD.
Really liked the analysis. It took me a while to come to appreciate Noelle’s character (prob cus she’s relatable lol), and this helped me appreciate her even more.
Another banger. Love the actual character analyzing instead of just, you know, theorizing about about what's going to happen in Chapter 7 or whatever. Good stuff, keep it up :3
Honestly, the way I see it, there’s going to be obstacles in a relationship like this (complete opposites), whether or not they can get past those obstacles together is what makes it healthy. We didn’t see any obstacles between Alphys and Undyne because they were already friends, all the obstacles had already been established and overcame in the past, there’s no need to dwell on problems that have been solved. I’ll find it interesting to see how dog man has these two develop. Will he have them overcome character flaws first, or will they get through their flaws together. I hope the former.
Really great video! i desperately wished there were more people who explored the dynamics the cast has with eachother, and you served on that wish perfectly! also nice art!! i didnt expect to see drdt fanart on a deltarune video of all things, but i love seeing other people with the same little niche interests as mine! its kinda cheesy at this point but keep it up!
I like the idea that the only thing that actually changes in the ending of Deltarune is who Susie ends up with. Kris and Noelle are the easiest pairings to get but you also have berdly, ralsei, and Susie alone.
Excellent video! There is one thing I really like about Noelle that most people seem uncomfortable to bring up, which is that she is probably the game’s most forwardly sexual character. The “step on me” humor she employs in chapter 2 tells me that her attraction to Susie is both romantic and sexual. Spamton basically calling her a slut and her making a move on Susie in Snowgrave seems to tie into this. I actually really like this aspect of her character. It’s rare that a lesbian character is allowed to feel those kinds of feelings for another girl while neither being objectified nor sanitized into a pure cinnamon roll uwu. It’s one area where she seems to have some agency. The fact that she fantasizes about Susie being rough and violent seems to track with her enjoyment of fake danger that is purely play, like her enjoyment of horror movies. It makes me wonder if it’s setting up to turn the forced heterosexual marriage angle of Snowgrave on its head.
21:28, you're a deltarune fan, a your turn to die fan, AND a danganronpa despair time fan?!?!?!? holy shit you have excellent taste my friend (also i really like your art)
i’m really glad this video was made…i think you get them in a way very few people do. also glad you brought up the strange romantic undertones in snowgrave route it definitely adds to the uncomfortablility especially through the lens of forcing it upon two queer kids
20:52 If shipping grinds your gears that much then you’re probably aromantic/asexual. I personally am very alloromantic and like love so much but I’m definitely a demisexual (allo lean). Lol
I wonder if the laughter was out of emotional pain, or nervousness, or not knowing how to handle emotions of grief, like Chara. Or who knows, maybe Chara laughed because of the idea that came to them about poisoning themselves in the most painful way possible as ghey just witnessed with Asgore, only more intensively to a lethal extent. If it's that last one then it'd line up with the "Chara climbed the mountain for not happy reasons".
honestly i'd be down for the two getting together, main issue i have with canon shipping is writers most often keep the characters in the infactuation phase to avoid writing an actual relationship. it's like the hero gets the girl trope except stretched out for an entire series. so if toby is gonna get them together, i'd like it to be around the middle of the game so we can actually enjoy seeing them fumbling in the early days of the relationship. what can i say i just find relationship dynamics cute and vastly prefer them over prolongued simping resulting in a incel "nice guy" character.
i love that you mentioned the romantic undertones of snowgrave...... forever sooooo fucked up and interesting to me. as part of your meddling with the game you are forcing these two queer teenagers into a vaguely heterosexual relationship and it's reeeaaal bad. like it sucks but its also soooooo interesting to think about.
Between Noelles crush, Kris crush/desire for friendship, Berdlys weirdness their needs to be a meme animatic with someone asking “Raise your hand if you have had or currently do have a crush of Susie”(half the caste rasies their hand because Susie is the best character ever)
Are you planning on making a video over the relationship with Kris and Noelle? I see there’s a bunch of narrative weight and implications there that I barely see people talk about, especially given how both of them are tied to an integral point of the story, probably with the bunker.
SHE’S GRABBING HIS SHIRT!?!? All this time I thought she was choking him, and that it was supposed to be a moment where she was violent(ly out of character) for comedic reasons!
i also wonder what susie might think in snowgrave if she finds out about what kris and noelle did… because even though kris (or us really) commanded noelle to act, noelle did actually do the killing. susie is violent but does not kill, so i wonder how, if this happens, will change things and their relationship
I don't know why people think Alphyne and Suzelle are the same ship, especially when Alphys's and Undyne's entire relationship is clearly Toby Fox writing Snake/Otacon fanfiction.
I also think that theres, oh i dont know, only two chapters out? and maybe they havent gotten a chance to actually flesh out the relationship yet because they literally started interacting in chapter 2 out of 2
I forgot about this until now - speaking of Susie not entering the diner because of Catti, we do see her in the diner in one of the chapter 4 teasers from the 2022 anniversary status update. Catti isn’t visible in the screenshot but if she were working at the time she’d be covered up by the textbox anyway. Maybe those two are on better terms as of chapter 4 post-dark world.
Also, some people are confused about 13:20 - I am not talking about Kriselle in general, nor is the pairing genuinely heterosexual. The roles they are forced into in the Snowgrave route can be read into as resembling an “abusive heterosexual (patriarchal) marriage”. None of that is really important to my thesis, it was just an aside I made, but I think some people took “heterosexual” out of the context of the surrounding phrase and/or applied the statement to Kriselle as a general ship outside of Snowgrave.
i have an important question. what exactly about kris and noelle in snowgrave can be read as heterosexual? me and a buddy put a lot of time into thinking about this interpretation, and we couldnt make any sense of it without making fallacious arguments. if you could shed some light on it, i'd really appreciate it! my friend's a huge noelle fan and it'd really help this big document he's writing about her. thank you ^^
@@FirstnameLastname-sb3hj i was thinking the same. Like i get what they mean by the patriarchal roles and whatever but does anything really communicate that that is the intended read about their dynamic in the weird route? Because everything i can think of just points to it being an allegory for abusive relationships of any kind. Does it seem specifically "patriarchal" or "heterosexual" because Noelle is a fem-presenting person while Kris often interpreted as more """masc""" by some people (which is something that is not even true since Kris has presented themself so androgynous up to this point, so this is just the product of binarism prevalent in the fandom), and that this makes it easier for people to identify them with the abusive-man and abused-woman dynamic of traditional patriarchal couples? To me that just seems like maybe traditional gender roles being subconsciously applied to Kriselle's relationship, since theres really no interaction between them that parallels the inherent sexism and machismo of an abusive patriarchal het couple. But I'd really love to hear their arguments in case im missing something. Its been a while since ive played snowgrave.
And i want to clarify im not being accusatory either, id really love to know what the other perspective is, and even in the worst case scenario i really understand that deconstructing gender roles in one's mind is no easy feat at all. Also sorry if what i wrote is completely incomprehensible lol English is not my first language.
the Noelle choking Berdly thing is similar to people thinking Kris doesn't like hugs because of what Asgore said even though the original quote is "i forgot if you don"t like hugs LIKE THAT" but people act like Kris hates all hugs
Considering their mother hugs them similarly, perhaps it’s less that they dont like hugs and more symbolic in nature.
Maybe they feel they’re coddled or being overly protected. Maybe they feel like they’re restricted, etc. I don’t like the idea of Kris being hugged by their mom as if she doesn’t know better.
To add to this, Kris *_canonically_* can ask Susie for a hug after the Spamton Neo fight, and they do it *_on their own_* without our intervention.
So true it could just be that Kris just doesn't like bear hugs? Cause asgore is a big guy after all and probably squishes Kris with that hug lmao
It's like people forget Gorey was canonically one of the strongest monsters in UT! He's a boss monster so he's probably unaware of his own strength.
At least I hope that's the case, and not to do with how Kris sees their Dad after the divorce and whatever he did to lose his badge.
@@vanilabeans2186 Honestly I think is just this... I mean Toriel hugs Kris very softly and gently, and Asgore lifted them from the ground and squished them like a teddy bear xD. Is like completely different, and people still don´t get it hahaha. Very strong people can give too strong hugs and those can hurt.
Absolutely in love with the idea Susie being the object of everyone's attractions, and just having such low self-esteem that she doesn't accept it. It feels both funny, and like it could set up some genuinely heart wrenching scenes when she learns how much she means to everyone.
Susie is so loved, even Clam Girl from UNDERTALE was hyping her up
It also narratively makes sense, since Susie has the freedom that none of them have and all of them desire
she's the harem protag of the game
literally everyone loves susie tea too
@@valarmis you ate w this comment
Hoenstly I don't even think the Noelle throttling Berdly scene even needed acknowledgement, it's so clearly a bit and doesn't affect their dynamic in any way come the end of the chapter 😭
i really dont know why people took it so seriously. undertale was known for its over the top bits and deltarune is too. i always just thought it was hilarious and left it at that.
@@bumbabeesthe bird that carries you over a disproportionality small gap is an extremely important part of Undertale lore
@@thegreatchipman ah right, of course. how could i forget. without it, the lore would be in shambles. irreparable.
Like, Toby is being silly. He is making the funny. Everyone likes seeing Berdly get a little throttled. Hell, apparently people like seeing Berdly get frozen to death and his corpse getting encased in ice if the memes about Snowgrave are anything to go by.
Not to mention that she thinks that it’s all a dream at this point.
15:08 A really important little detail here is Noelle doesn't kill Spamton with Snowgrave, she uses Iceshock instead. Even when the player is directly calling for her, she's still somewhat able to resist using the spell that very clearly traumatised her.
I always thought the "me too" at the end of the ferris wheel scene was a reciprocation of love, but idk
You're spot on on susie and noelle having main plot relevance. Theres a sketch in the undertale artbook of a lizard creature fighting a 4 winged antlered angel in an ice cave.
THERES A SKETCH OF WHAT
@thisnameisbad3609 yeah look up "undertale artbook ice cave" it should be the second image that comes up
Oh my god you’re right. I have the book and I just checked. Page 26
I think most interpret that sprite of her shaking Berdly as choking him due to sound effect that follows it often being associated with damage.
Berdly in the dialogue is literally choking as well XD
@@seandorama5932 I mean bro was being violently shaken like a milkshake I wouldnt blame Berdly for being unable to speak
@@GwainSagaFanChannel I guess Noelle miss-shook him for a milkshake!
oh my god that was terrible XD
No, give yourself some credit, that was ice.
@@seandorama5932that was terrible indeed, please leave
i think they're teenagers. which is to say, no shit their relationships are kinda messed up sometimes, they haven't learned how to deal with this shit yet.
yeah, teenagers and even adults could have a crush in people they know for a FACT they do bad and messed up things. Like that whole "I can fix them" or "I don't want to fix them, I want them to break me" is because people are attracted to what is bad, even when good natured
@@invertebradoBut teenager relationships just fail in general
@@leonelzubieta8636 yeah
so what
all relationships end anyways, literally, "till death do us part"
the experience and the journey tends to be worth it tho
@@l0ned1ver95 Yeah, but teen relationships end worse than that
@@leonelzubieta8636 sometimes, not all times
regardless the point is, whatever, let em date, let em live
Man, I am not joking when I say I would watch a 3 hour long video essay about you talking about Deltarune characters. I eat this stuff up and you explain everything so well
Totally agree!!!
His voice is also very nice to listen to. Good videos to listen to while playing games like animal crossing
I really hope that Noelle eventually becomes a party member with Kris, Susie, and Ralsei. A 4-person battle system would be so cool. Kris would be the leader, Susie would be the tank person who hits very hard, Ralsei would be the healer, and Noelle would be the magic wielder/spell caster.
I think a mechanic where you could swap out the main party members would work slightly better, even though it'd be *a lot* of extra text and acts
It'd be fun for like a one-off battle for sure! I honestly wish rpgs with a party limit system would have a fight where it forces you to use more than the regular amount just temporarily.
I feel we need more variety in party members in general. the way Susie and Kris play is almost identical
ofc ralsei also uses magic but hes a healer with mental protection from using harmfull spells that appiles to both people around him and himself
Tbh, probably won’t happen. Or if it does, it wasn’t planned in advance. Toby admitted he wanted to have Berdly take part in the final fight with a 4 person fight but couldn’t figure out how to program him into the battle. so he just made Queen do the “look behind you!” strategy.
I hope Noelle becomes a bigger part of the upcoming chapters for sure.
Something else about Noelle's scene with Berdly after the Ferris Wheel is that Noelle is still under the assumption this is a dream. Thusly, she assumes Berdly is her dreams version of Berdly. If I was dreaming and my best friend said "hey btw I no longer have a crush on you, instead I'm now crushing on YOUR crush" I think a lot of people would respond in a similar way of "WHAT?"
I like these two. But no matter whether their relationship becomes romantic or stays platonic I'm most excited to see how their dynamic changes depending on which route you're on.
we now need a Kris and Susie relationship analysis to complete the trinity
True!
And lancer!
@@droyconAnd ralsei!
@@maila319We already have Susie and Ralsei
@@Youaveragecountryhumansfan Ralsei is not mentioned often as he is mostly sidelined out of the Susie harem group since he lacks an identity beyond serving lightners.
It’s interesting that both Susie and Noelle can kind of “break” the constraints of what’s going on, albeit in different ways (coincidentally both are gamers who play RPG games) based on their personality.
Susie doesn’t have to listen to the party’s leader (atypical of most party RPG games). Both Susie and Ralsei elect to listen to Kris.
Noelle joins the party and is controllable and will obey whatever you decide, which is different from Susie. But she’s also capable of breaking the game, in an almost horror creepypasta/glitches way. She can jump over or push cones as well to get into inaccessible areas.
In a way, these “game mechanics” also strike a resemblance to the ability of Kris to “save” (something they can do independent of the player. Which also makes me think Ralsei’s ability to make “cutscenes” where the player sees something independent of Kris and relay information to the player and Kris.
I wonder if Berdley has something similar, or if it’s just these 4 characters. Most of this has nothing to do with your ship video, but something you said inspired this train of thought.
i love this idea, i hvaent heard anyone bring this up before!!
Noelle DOES have determination levels similar to Kris, according to Queen. Monsters can embody DT in this universe just as well as humans, unlike UT.
Burghley doesn't get the prompt to really use his DT like Kris and Noelle do. If he somehow makes it into future dark worlds maybe he'll be a party member?
If you think about it, both Ralsei and Berdly create cutscenes that tell a story (The Legend and Bluebird of Misfortune).
@@1BeautifulDucklol Berdly is actually Ralsei's counterpart instead of Asriel being Ralsei's and Berdly being Noelle's that's now canon
I like the idea of the characters having control over the Dark World in different ways. Genuinely don't think I've ever heard that before. Major credit to you, & I hope this ends up being a real thing and not just your headcanon lol.
the opening line is funny to me because my mum, who is in her mid 50s, has been reading ships since before I was born 27 years ago :P
as someone who is an aspiring writer, this is eye opening in the sense that i did not realise how much people overthink things like short 30 second gags or character interactions. Like legitimately toby most likely wrote the scene of noelle offering to switch seats as a "she's just trying to help kris out but is still also interested to learn more about susie herself" but the fandom's like "NO THIS IS A SIGN THAT SHE'S SECRETLY A MASOCHIST AND WANTS SUSIE TO HURT HER" which is certainly a very staggering position to see people taking.
I agree that the fandom is looking too much into it, and that Noelle is most certainly NOT that but what is wrong with liking BDSM stuff anyway?
Deltarune and Undertale already explores a lot of controversial ideas and humanizes them, like gay relationships, furries, (referring to So Sorry who yes I know did bad things outside of the game, but that wasn't known yet when he was put in in the first place) and people who just tend to feel like social outcasts in general, so I feel like it'd be cool if it had that actually be Noelle's "kink" in a sense. And show it's not necessarily a bad thing to have those types of interests unless you take it too far.
I don't think that's what's going to happen, as this is a rated t game but I'm just saying I don't think there would necessarily be anything wrong with that.
@@StarwayBunny i don't think there'd be anything wrong with it either! it's just that, when it comes to such themes, it'd be a lot clearer than this. It's a neat idea but i feel as though the reasoning for drawing this conclusion is... Kind of ludicrous, and is a textbook example of reading so much into something you're practically watching a completely different scene.
@@spookytimejunction Agreed.
i hate hate hate HATE so much how seriously some people in the deltarune community take the characters in aspects that are just so clearly not what the writing of the game is going for. like calling susie x noelle... toxic??? or hating on berdly with a genuine passion like he's some kind of real life incel creep and not just a light-hearted depiction of a self absorbed nerd who's actually just insecure. there's so many other examples of stuff like this i've seen... stuff like people thinking toriel is homophobic?? how does anyone come to that conclusion??
i usually hate it when people bring up fandoms and generalize them but lately the deltarune and undertale fandoms have really been frustrating me lol
I am pretty sure most people agree that being Annoying is what means Berdly deserves to die, not being a Incel or anything.
@@thereactor3945but I love him :(
Isn’t the “Toriel is homophobic” thing mostly a joke made by the fandom?
@@Paleowgh Idk. When I first heard of it, it was from like a thread on twitter or something about how they think Toriel is actually implied homophobic and how they think it will actually be a plot point in Deltarune or something. And I'm just like... How delusional are you honestly like what. Homophobia basically doesn't even exist in the Undertale world bro
@@perhapsmoose Ah I see.
Krerdly showing up in the beginning gave me psychic damage
It's scary seeing my "at first it was a joke" ship show up in the public 😭😭
i love how level headed and neutral your commentary is! i find it hard not to find polarizing takes in any fandom and this feels like a nice, objective stance
One thing I feel like is overlooked is that Susie most likely projects her feelings onto others and has a habit of lashing out and yet she never targets Noelle. If we want to read into this then she loves Noelle more than she hates herself and hasn't realized it yet.
Note that with both kris and ralsei keeping BIG secrets from her, a harsh reveal might send susie into an aggressive panic state that only Noelle is situated to pull her out of. If Noelle's mental state is unbalanced enough when susie is vulnerable... Hoo boy.
But on a lighter note, Susie has two confirmed suitors by chapter 2. How high will that number rise when she takes a single shower? When she personally saves catti and popular kid jockington? When the class sees her throw an axe into a titanic monster mid-Roaring? Susie is the protagonist of deltarune, and every cliche anime has a harem subplot.
I'm like 50% certain Kris had a crush on her, too. I'm here for everyone being in love with this one dumbass.
@@Chowder_T yes
@@Chowder_T Yes they do, kind of obvious, even if they don´t talk.
@@Chowder_T im for that simply because at this point susie is more of the protagonist than kris is. and i think its hilarious lmao.
@@MoRPho151 huh did i miss something
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!! I'm so tired of seeing awful awful takes on Suselle, and Noelle in general. Thank you thank you thank you.
Also, my personal headcanon on what happened in Noelle's room on the Weird Route is that when Susie told Noelle it was all a dream, she was like "Oh, I'm so relieved, I could just-!" and then kissed Susie several times, not even because of her romantic feelings towards her, just because she was so utterly relieved that all those horrible things were just a terrible nightmare, and soon she'd wake up everything would be ok again.
But, I also really like your comments on the future of their relationship in the weird route - it would be really interesting if, in the weird route, they get together quicker, but break apart by the end of the game because they rushed into it and things got messy, whereas in the regular route they get time to build a relationship. Sort of like, the weird route gives you that instant gratification, but without the positive long-term outcome.
My thoughts exactly on. Yeah Noelle is an example of many traditional feminine characters getting shit on more then usual, but that a whole another issue
@@starmaker75
Traditional?
She's lesbian.
I don't like the ship because Toby decided to write those vlog thingies and Noelle is a absolute creep in them, it made me really dislike her when otherwise in the game I liked her.
@@CatBitchNami What things?
@@Cute___E
Sweepstakes Noelle vlogs, read 'em yourself and see it.
kerdly analysis when?
I second this!
Agreed
The best pairing
So true
5:07 I've always thought that, when Kris tells Noelle about Susie eating chalk, the way the line is written implies Noelle very much knew Susie was taking the chalk, she just didn't know WHAT she was doing with it. If she didn't know I figure the line would rather be written more like "Wait, she was eating... chalk?" or something similar to imply she didn't know anything about that. I honestly think EVERYONE knew Susie was taking it, even Alphys who's just spineless and wouldn't call her out on it anyway, because Susie's a delinquent to them and it seems like something she'd do to disrupt the class. The idea that the blog entries aren't of the current timeline is super interesting and one I never considered!! But I do think the chalk comment is misinterpreted just a smidge? Noelle is smart and clearly infatuated with Susie at this point, I figure she'd be able to figure out that it's Susie stealing the chalk especially if she's taken special interest in her. I just don't think anyone's first assumption is gonna be that said thief is EATING the chalk lmao, so she's reasonably surprised
Honestly this video made Suselle click for me. I’ve understood the appeal before but I’ve never noticed how Noelle and Susie just complete eachother like puzzle pieces until this video. Makes me definitely think it’s gonna be canon
Ok that "The blogposts are not canon/from this timeline" theory is REALLY cool
Yes I wanna see a Deltarune multiverse where this blogpost event happens in one of the universes.
Yeah, I never considered the idea of it being related to the shadow crystals.
I’m honestly glad, cuz that means whatever is in there will be brought up in some capacity again. My only issue with the Spamton Sweepstakes is that the info revealed in the ARG wouldn’t be accessible to new players.
If it becomes relevant in such a way later on in game, that would be cool
What no it's dumb
@@diamondmemer9754 honestly, the blogposts are even dumber like, literally in chapter 1 if you tell Noelle that Susie is terrible she's surprised, she didn't know she was actually bad so the fact that Noelle supposedly watched Susie brutally bullying Kris doesn't align with what the game have showed us at all. and i also think the newest girl just doesn't make sense because Noelle saw things she shouldn't be supposed to see if she was actually looking through the class' frosted window/
@@albarikrisey she's surprised because she felt that she wasn't actually a bad person, they probably had more interactions beside that one, if the blogposts aren't canon then I don't see the point of their existence
11:20
The vine boom sfx
The lesbian flag
Susie’s smug smile
It’s just *Chefs kiss*🤌
Now *this* is what Toby Fox meant when he said "there will be a Deltarune"
IDK, Susie feels like the typical anime protag who is completely oblivious to the obvious signs until the last minute
i got over the mic quality real quick after what a great rundown and general archive of pre-chapter 3 susie and noelle interactions this video is. really fucking good. thank you so much for this.
Imagine third wheeling a couple that doesn't even exist in the fictional universe the characters are part of
I cant hear "alphyne" without hearing the mario and sonic at the olympic winter games announcer saying "alpine skiing"
Krerdly truthers rise up
The only ship I've ever jumped on board as fast was Papyton and those two characters literally never even talked
@@demetriam2408 There is so much relating Papyrus and Mettaton together though, way too much for 2 characters that didnt interact in the game at all
Unless you count an indirect kiss, they are both the only non-dog characters that will catch the stick with their mouth if you throw it at them
@@doodoo2065
There's also the fact he has MTT branded something during the fight, and I'm also pretty sure it states during his hangout that he watches MTT shows.
There is an odd amount of connectivity between Papyrus and Mettaton.
@@ToyFreddyGaming1987 Mhm! they both like talking in uppercase too, and say "no you" if you try to roast them
suselle sold me more based off of the snowgrave route recontextualize a lot of noelle's behavior. She doesn't like the winter months because it reminds her of her lost sister. The festive nature of the season repels her because of the negative feelings it invites. She instead finds herself attracted to the occult and the supernatural. The scary, dangerous, and frightening. All conditions fulfilled by winter's neighboring season, fall. More specifically, Halloween.
Noelle crushes on Susie not just because of a timid gay feeling, she crushes on her because Susie is a *bad girl*, a *scary girl*, in a school full of goody toeshoes monsters.
It's a somewhat toxic attraction. While it's played for wholesome points in the natural route, it gets a lot of nuance taking into account Noelle's fascination with the occult and her trauma. This is a far cry of depth compared to Undertale's Alphys and Undyne where it mostly just culminated in jokey cringe from an Otaku and a Jock both inexperienced in love getting together.
oh my god, never made the connection of her attachment to occult/supernatural/etc with halloween, the very last major stop of the year BEFORE the winter months... like fixating on / getting drawn to the time right before everything went wrong and awful.... love it
People need remember platonic shipping exist
Edit: This video is well made btw
Edit edit: Kris might not have a crush on Susie,sure the tea leave is high but they still could see Susie as a friend
I’m actually more inclined to believe kris doesn’t have a crush on susie in canon as well but I had to sacrifice it for the bit
Susie might not have a crush on Noelle, sure, the dream scene.
But she still could see Noelle as a friend
You know, I really hate this attitude, amongst young fans mostly, that a ship has to be perfect clean and wholesome and never do anything that can even be perceived as problematic otherwise it's Bad. Calling Noelle a stalker is such a stretch!
annoys me too. i see it in almost every fandom nowadays. and its like...i get the ickiness if its incest or something, but just about every ship to people seems "problematic" in one way or another. and often, its argued purely because the person just doesnt like it. what happened to the whole "dont like dont interact" thing?
oh my gods, i think some people are really taking things too seriously. Noelle strangling Birdley is, first and foremost, HILARIOUS. Noelle very likely has a crush on Susie because, despite being this big, mean, tough gal (on the surface), who is rude and scary to everyone else, still chose to show Noelle kindness. That's a great trope, I am not accepting any criticism. Also, all of the characters are exaggerations of who they would be irl, so WHAT if someone wants to be stepped on, even though it's clear that's very likely not going to happen since Susie does not want to hurt Noelle, it's media to be enjoyed, it's not propaganda. Damn people relax. And it's wild that it's ME who has to be saying this (if you know, you know).
Great video, honestly, excellent take due to your no-nonsense approach.
Also, if some people are getting their panties in a twist over "uhhh this ship toxic", what about Snowgrave??? Where we take control of the player character (Kris), make them do our bidding and manipulate their friend (Noelle) by abusing her and turning her into a pawn, all the while Kris looks on in horror?? Hypocritical? Nitpicky? It seems so.
And yeah, Noelle's character isn't "chick who has a crush on Susie", it's *so much more complex,* I can't believe people don't see that. If anything, her having a crush on Susie is a perfectly complimentary addition to her as a person, it makes full sense based on her trauma, based on her personal tastes, based on the expectations people force on her, based on her interests, and so on. She's by far one of the most compelling and extensively written characters in Deltarune. I think (and hope) she'll have a much larger role later on and that she lives up to the near main character status.
"force a lesbian and her non binary friend into an abusive heterosexual marriage coded relationship"
Toby literally made the Geno route homophobic and transphobic LMAOOO
I got whiplash when she said it even though she's right
still like it more because deltarune weird route is more interesting than route genocide
Can't be Homophobic or Transphobic if you kill *all* sexualities and genders as one
I think that reading is INCREDIBLY unfair to Toby and the story at large. Like the weird route is messed up but I don't think its THAT messed up. It feels unecessarily cruel for me to believe its the case.
@@skyrimlover777? Not sure I follow. How is it cruel for Toby to portray forcing 2 queer friends into an extrenely hetero coded dynamic where one of them is actively physically suffering from in, and both are drastically mentally and emotionally sufferimg from it
Been watching all your DeltaRune vids lately, to fuel my obsession as of late. All of them have been very good!
Kris is very obviously interested in Susie, Noelle is very obviously interested in Susie, _Ralsei_ might potentially be interested in Susie, fucking- who knows, Jockington might be interested in Susie
"Who gets to be with Susie" is either going to break the fandom, be the Player's choice for who gets to date the lizard, or is going to result in the largest polycule you've ever seen and I will take no other answers
Largest polycule or single Susie are the only options I would like to see play out
wait kris is interested in susie??
it's implied iirc? before kris got possessed by us they seemed to follow susie around i think
@@ambers6789 There are a nnnNUMBER of things implying that Kris is into Susie!
Buuut there's too many to list in just one youtube comment, so I'll just being up the N3W3ST_G1RL_G1RL scene where Susie takes a bite from an apple, throws it at Kris, and then they take _another_ bite from said apple. Literally an indirect kiss
Keeping with the theme of apples, that's a notable motif they share. Susie likes apples. Kris smells like apples. There's the aforementioned indirect kiss with an apple. Kris Tea is apple juice to Susie, which she is *exactly* as excited to drink over as Noelle Tea's eggnog. (Literally exactly, it's the same reaction from her to both Teas, just with two different nouns 😭)
And now that I've mentioned the Character Teas I can't *not* bring up Kris' reaction to the Susie Tea. Just... _glancing_ at her, seemingly slyly based on Ralsei's comment of "they seem into it" and Susie's flustered "STOP LOOKING AT ME!!"
And all that's not even MENTIONING the countless little, _little_ reactions Kris has to things about Susie sprinkled throughout just Chapters 1 and 2 alone.
I.E., Susie commenting on Kris not seeming confused or frustrated when you select _Susie_ as the one they'd bring to the Carnival at the end of Chapter 2. She comments about Kris seeming frustrated or confused if you decide for them to bring Noelle or Ralsei, _but not Susie._ Interesting.
There's also the whole thing where Kris leaps in front of Chaos King's bullets to protect her entirely without player input, _Susie's own_ wildly different reactions to the Superbosses being dependent on whether or not Kris was in danger, etc. etc. the list goes _on._
phew that is an essay im sorry 💀
@@ThirdyMeowy oh and by the by if you click on the three dots to the far right of your comments you can pull up an option to edit them! ^^
Great video! The grain on the microphone did drive me a little crazy, but after waiting 3 years for chapter 3 i am way beyond that.
If the microphone quality drove you insane, then you're gonna love the chapter 3 secret boss, Grain E. Mike
The best ship is the friends we've made along the way... Unless if it sinks in a acid pool.
oh… our Friend Ship is sinking and dissolving in the battery acid….
I know a video is good when halfway through I pause it and turn into one of those edited manga panels with a character crying and saying "It's just so peak...". I was a little wary of this given that I've seen similar video titles in videos that come across as maybe too critical for their own sake, so I'm very pleased that (so far, I haven't finished watching yet) this video seems to be very balanced and thorough in its analysis.
YESSSS YOU HIT ALL THE POINTS I HAD (even the blogpost au theory which i always keep in my brain whenever people mention it to make claims about the interpersonal dynamics) AND EVEN MORE THAT I HADNT CONSIDERED!!!!! (like the take-2 deltarune theory?? thats so cool i will definitely be rotating this in my brain)
im really happy to see such a sound and empirical take on suselle. im definitely biased in favor of them because. well. I just really want suselle to win LMAO theyre very important to me. great vid as always
Finally, someone who gets it. Susie isn’t oblivious to Noelle’s feelings, she’s BEWILDERED by them. The idea that someone like Noelle would want to be around her in any capacity, be it platonic or romantic, freaks her out. She doesn’t know how to handle it at all. It isn’t until the ferris wheel that she finds out what Noelle sees in her, and by that time she had already reflexively pushed her away with the whole “it’s a dream” bit, which she ends up regretting. Yeah she’s not showing outright infatuation with Noelle or anything, but we’re watching in real time as the crack Noelle made in Susie’s shell with that pencil gets wider and wider.
ngl I'm kinda disapponted Noelle wasn't choking berdly. I thought that was too funny. But I did know that was out of confusion and shock more than jelously. And I do think the fandom kinda reads into certain things to much. You can't take one instance of a character and just say that is part of their personality. Noelle doesn't hate berdly just because she shook him about. You already listed all the examples pointing in the other direction.
Wow! I love any UT/DR content, but a really thoughtful analysis like this is a special treat! You've got yourself a sub, and I've got myself a real treasure in finding you. Thank you!!
My epic fan-theory is that Catti and Jockington will be party members in chapter 4 or later but instead of them being separate party members they'll function as one unit with Catti wielding Jockington in battle. She's done it in PE before!
13:30 i never even thought of that being what happened, i just assumed it was the same as normal just like, spookier or something
thats very interesting
I really appreciate this video lol its really nice to see someone actually outline how interesting both girls are on their own as well as within their relationship. As you said its so rare for sapphic relationships (and even just sapphic characters in general) to get a spot in the limelight but man even when we actually get it... 😮💨
16:32 idk when im gonna get go bring this up so I'll just do it here because its more interesting than just saying "for the algorithm"
"school" is such an underrated song its one of my favourites in the ost. Im a sucker for basslines that use semitonal movement. And the drums are some of the most interesting toby has written! The ways if utilizes deltarunes main theme, chefs kiss. Perfection.
I can kinda relate to your thoughts near the end. As someone older who has already experienced relationships, and even is less interested to be in one anymore. I don’t really care for ships. But more so, I’m interested in the relationships, hardships, and seeing eye to eye as people. How will they react? A dreamy, cute, ship that has no issues what so ever. Is the lamest thing to me. Because all relationships are not perfect. It requires common ground, compromises, arguments, but also growing up. If Susie and Noelle do become a thing. I don’t want it to be boring, and especially in same sex relationships. There are even outside issues such as not approving family or other town members not liking it. He could explore many things. Even unrequited love. It’s a thing many people experience. Even in those together. Sometimes one is a lot more committed than the other.
OUGH I NEVER CONSIDERED ANY OF THIS!!!! this actually cuts way deeper into the relationship and is both well thought out and articulated. i didnt really think about suselle a lot before because it felt shallow, but this goes into the Depths of it? it both shows how susie and noelle compliment each other story and motive wise, and what the basis for the relationship even is outside of being cute. the note about susie’s dream lie and how noelle isnt afraid of things she has control over is such a good observation as well it makes so much sense and its really neat!! also the thing about her liking to have control over things or. not being truly afraid of them reminds me of snowgrave though thas kind of obvious. makes me wonder if itll tie in? alsoalso people think suselle is What (referring to abuse?? or stalking??), and alsoalsoalso god i need to get more media literate or analyze things. anyways cool
“Emotionally constipated” is such a funny way of describing Susie and characters like her.
12:57 Despite loving the ship dearly and hoping they end up together, if one of them rejected the other I could actually see it being Noelle. But only in the Snowgrave route. She may be too emotionally and mentally drained to start a relationship just yet and she has already been shown to be less timid of Susie in this route (all be it in what she perceived to be a dream). Perhaps it could be a way the Snowgrave route really differs from the normal one. It could be a good consequence of the player's actions too. You can't have your cake and get to eat it too.
Your Deltarune analyses are absolutely incredible! You are so good at these kinds of character deep dives, and I hope you make more videos like these in the future. I'll definitely be going back and rewatching this and your Susie + Ralsei video when other chapters are coming out.
Im surprised by how much people misunderstood completely Noelle and thinks that she is toxic or even creppy. I found her kinda cute and just as someone with a lot of behaviors and thoughts that could be perceived as "weird", especially because by her own nature as someone very shy who can get a bit nervous from time to time. I understand that this misconception of hers is related as how we can have a complete different interpretation of each character... but man, i still can't understand why people thinks that she's toxic... for me, there's no way for her to be THAT.
Even as someone who isn’t that big a fan of this pairing, I really love getting to see this deep dive into it. Getting into not only supporting factors for it but how it affects/will affect the broader narrative is a great way to look at shipping.
13:18 ok this is the best description of Snowgrave I heard
I still feel like the "Berdly shaking" scene is foreshadowing. It might be a slapstick joke scene by itself, and I don't even think Berdly will show up much in subsequent chapters (he kind of served his purpose and had his whole arc in chapter 2), but I do believe there's potential for a love-triangle conflict, what with Kris being implied to be interested in Susie as well.
great video, i loved your takes on the relationship.
btw, the links in the description don't work (if they were supposed to be links)!!
oh thanks for telling me! it’s fixed
Another small comment just to thank you for this video!! I am very fond of Suselle, I think they make a lot of sense and they complement each other in a lot of ways. Even if they end up being just friends but very good friends I would be happy, I am more interested in how that relationship will influence the story. I have tried to explain other people this and you understood it very well!! The potential of an interesting dynamic is right now like ¨theoretical¨, but people are reading the relationship too literal (saying relationship in general, not necesarily romantic).
This is a really refreshing take on suselle imo. I've seen some especially horrid takes in the fandom about the ship, and about a lot of the ships in general, so this was really nice to see
0:18 is the perfect description of what kris and noelle have between each other
The Noelle choking Berdly thing was always an exaggeration of the joke to me. I knew it was her grabbing his shirt but the mental image of her choking him out of the blue is funnier to me.
I love the style of your storytelling
As someone who was never really crazy about Suselle you've helped me understand how they're supposed to work; Good stuff 👍
I saw a Reddit post that said “The Newest Girl” is a shadow crystal sort of warped perception. Everyone is acting as the “worst versions of themselves” (Susie threatening to eat Kris, Kris laughing in Susie’s face over it and acting overtly cocky with the apple bite, and Noelle being frozen solid by fear and anxiety), so maybe some of the information we got from the Spamton Sweepstakes have that sort of filter applied to it?
6:10 My take on the Noelle being weird about Susie smashing her into lockers or in the ground is that she is... SUPER horny xD like, she imagines Susie smashing her in a locker but like with a hot kiss or something like that, she is not imaging a puch or something really bad. Something I have noticed about DR is that it has more double-meaning humor and sometimes a little sexy. For example all the teasing between Rudy and Asgore that is like joking but also kind of double meaning (Rudy getting mad of Sans giving him peackles, Rudy saying that Asgore is a fruit but hairy like a kiwi, and all the stuff about the flowers Asgore gives him, even Susie comments that is weird and that she is not trying to understand it XD).
It annoys me that people right away label the relationship as toxic when the relationship hasn´t even began... I mean they just talked ONE time like for real, and Noelle started to saw that Susie wasn´t that terrible and scary monster but that she was a goofy silly person and also heroic and I think she even liked her more in THAT way than before...
Honestly, it would be fine for me if the relationship wasn´t canon, I like them also as friends, but this is not as bad as people picture it lol. Maybe today teens are more conscious about toxic relationships and this is why some people is seeing red flags there but a lot of those things are meant to be funny and to have a double-meaning.
Noelle on her blog puts xD and says a lot of things jockingly, so why they take the smash into the lockers and the other ferris wheel scene so seriously?? She is just trailing off into wishful thinking, and she is not imagine Susie smacking her on the floor with pain but with joy... You know what kind xD.
Really liked the analysis. It took me a while to come to appreciate Noelle’s character (prob cus she’s relatable lol), and this helped me appreciate her even more.
Another banger. Love the actual character analyzing instead of just, you know, theorizing about about what's going to happen in Chapter 7 or whatever. Good stuff, keep it up :3
Honestly, the way I see it, there’s going to be obstacles in a relationship like this (complete opposites), whether or not they can get past those obstacles together is what makes it healthy. We didn’t see any obstacles between Alphys and Undyne because they were already friends, all the obstacles had already been established and overcame in the past, there’s no need to dwell on problems that have been solved. I’ll find it interesting to see how dog man has these two develop. Will he have them overcome character flaws first, or will they get through their flaws together. I hope the former.
Finally, some good fucking food
Really great video! i desperately wished there were more people who explored the dynamics the cast has with eachother, and you served on that wish perfectly!
also nice art!! i didnt expect to see drdt fanart on a deltarune video of all things, but i love seeing other people with the same little niche interests as mine! its kinda cheesy at this point but keep it up!
0:05 my mom lowkey introduced me to shipping and fanfic, she knows damn well what shipping is
12:33 i see how this could go as more than the gag about her tail
and could be what she is trying to to tell noelle
I like the idea that the only thing that actually changes in the ending of Deltarune is who Susie ends up with. Kris and Noelle are the easiest pairings to get but you also have berdly, ralsei, and Susie alone.
Third theory on the Noelle blog post:
Noelle is writing Friendfiction
(I do not actually beleive this)
Your Deltarune videos are very well made!
8:26 Okay... BUUUUT, it is funnier if we say she is!
Excellent video! There is one thing I really like about Noelle that most people seem uncomfortable to bring up, which is that she is probably the game’s most forwardly sexual character. The “step on me” humor she employs in chapter 2 tells me that her attraction to Susie is both romantic and sexual. Spamton basically calling her a slut and her making a move on Susie in Snowgrave seems to tie into this. I actually really like this aspect of her character. It’s rare that a lesbian character is allowed to feel those kinds of feelings for another girl while neither being objectified nor sanitized into a pure cinnamon roll uwu. It’s one area where she seems to have some agency. The fact that she fantasizes about Susie being rough and violent seems to track with her enjoyment of fake danger that is purely play, like her enjoyment of horror movies. It makes me wonder if it’s setting up to turn the forced heterosexual marriage angle of Snowgrave on its head.
21:28, you're a deltarune fan, a your turn to die fan, AND a danganronpa despair time fan?!?!?!? holy shit you have excellent taste my friend (also i really like your art)
you too 🤝 and thank you!
i’m really glad this video was made…i think you get them in a way very few people do. also glad you brought up the strange romantic undertones in snowgrave route it definitely adds to the uncomfortablility especially through the lens of forcing it upon two queer kids
20:52 If shipping grinds your gears that much then you’re probably aromantic/asexual. I personally am very alloromantic and like love so much but I’m definitely a demisexual (allo lean). Lol
I wonder if the laughter was out of emotional pain, or nervousness, or not knowing how to handle emotions of grief, like Chara. Or who knows, maybe Chara laughed because of the idea that came to them about poisoning themselves in the most painful way possible as ghey just witnessed with Asgore, only more intensively to a lethal extent. If it's that last one then it'd line up with the "Chara climbed the mountain for not happy reasons".
Me to 1.48$ sticker
until about 2 minutes into the video i thought "alphine" was an animal and i was completely confused
People thought Noelle was stalking Susie because of that one post?? That's like, mildly gossipy at most.
hey this is a really cool analysis! subscribed :]
honestly i'd be down for the two getting together, main issue i have with canon shipping is writers most often keep the characters in the infactuation phase to avoid writing an actual relationship.
it's like the hero gets the girl trope except stretched out for an entire series.
so if toby is gonna get them together, i'd like it to be around the middle of the game so we can actually enjoy seeing them fumbling in the early days of the relationship.
what can i say i just find relationship dynamics cute and vastly prefer them over prolongued simping resulting in a incel "nice guy" character.
i love that you mentioned the romantic undertones of snowgrave...... forever sooooo fucked up and interesting to me. as part of your meddling with the game you are forcing these two queer teenagers into a vaguely heterosexual relationship and it's reeeaaal bad. like it sucks but its also soooooo interesting to think about.
Thanks madeline celeste
Between Noelles crush, Kris crush/desire for friendship, Berdlys weirdness their needs to be a meme animatic with someone asking
“Raise your hand if you have had or currently do have a crush of Susie”(half the caste rasies their hand because Susie is the best character ever)
this is an amazing video tho i wish i still lived in ignorance thinking noelle homer simpson chokes berdly
Are you planning on making a video over the relationship with Kris and Noelle? I see there’s a bunch of narrative weight and implications there that I barely see people talk about, especially given how both of them are tied to an integral point of the story, probably with the bunker.
SHE’S GRABBING HIS SHIRT!?!? All this time I thought she was choking him, and that it was supposed to be a moment where she was violent(ly out of character) for comedic reasons!
i also wonder what susie might think in snowgrave if she finds out about what kris and noelle did… because even though kris (or us really) commanded noelle to act, noelle did actually do the killing. susie is violent but does not kill, so i wonder how, if this happens, will change things and their relationship
mcyt fandom solved this "how do you shorthand refer to a platonic relationship" thing by inventing thirty billion duo and trio names
Ok I know noelle doesnt choke birdy but its funny so yes she does
I don't know why people think Alphyne and Suzelle are the same ship, especially when Alphys's and Undyne's entire relationship is clearly Toby Fox writing Snake/Otacon fanfiction.
I also think that theres, oh i dont know, only two chapters out? and maybe they havent gotten a chance to actually flesh out the relationship yet because they literally started interacting in chapter 2 out of 2
This is good stuff, keep it up
Love your theories :)