Hey, good video once again bro! I have been expecting your video in CB500X. It would be nice if you can do a comparison of that vehicle against Triumph's Tiger 660 sport.
Like many riders, I appreciate reliability and dependability over performance, especially when the performance of a machine like the T700 is solid. The price difference doesn't rule my decision because I'm willing to pay for what I want. Thank you for another superb discussion.
Especially with an adventure motorcycle, I wouldn't take anything unreliable into the wilderness, on 2 or 4 wheels, i dont want to be stranded in/on anything miles away from civilization.
But dependability depends on how well the suspension works offroad. If you fall on your arse because the suspension isn't up to the job you have then incurred more cost repairing the bike and perhaps repairing yourself so I guess the moral is, beware false economies.
@@captainwin6333 I would argue you are conflating dependability with capability. If you are taking the bike into a situation where it's outclassed. That is a capability problem. If you have a part randomly fail that should have been fine given the conditions.. like the engine detonating, oil leaks, clutch issues, abs issues, traction control issues, etc. those are reliability issues. The KTM give you a whole slew of tech that the T7 doesn't. That's great if you really want it but if you don't care it's a liability. I'm looking to buy a new bike this next year and it's between the: • Aprilia Tuareg 660(80hp, 51.6 ft-lb, 449 lb) $11999 (like this bike, lots of suspension travel, few weird design quirks, not sure about parts availability or reliability) • Tenere 700(72.4 hp, 50 ft-lb 452 lbs) $10299 (About as simple as it gets, great reliability, lacking the bells and whistles of the competition, little cheaper, little less power, little less capable stock) • KTM 790 adv R (88.4hp, 59.4 ft-lb, 464 lbs ) $12000 (2020 used, out of warranty) This bike is pretty hardcore but there are reliability issues, Sometimes hot and crazy is fun but do you want to live with it?)
Thanks I was afraid that I did all the work for nothing And after-more 50 years riding motorbikes …. and repairing (not the KTM hahaha) but my other motorbikes I thought it’s time to share some of that knowledge. But I’m not that acquainted, whit this way of fomenting in UA-cam’s… I can’t even find my post back …. I maybe have to dig deeper.
I now own a T7, and best advice I'll give anyone looking to get an ADV bike, join the owner groups for each model and brand. Thats what I did 6 months before putting a deposit down on an adv bike. The KTM groups scared me to the point of not even taking a look at them again for a bloody long time. Literally not a single problem on the T7 pages, only issue being the exhaust bracket that everyone cuts off anyway and goes to a high mount, and that is only a problem if you crash it hard. Big Rock did a really good job on this review/comparison, well done mate. PS: From what I have seen here in Aus, it seems only the Suzuki DR's and Yammy T7's that survive reliably in our harsh environment, and Kawasaki KLR650 gets an honourable mention.
I've owned all the Japanese brands, dirt and street, but no ADV bikes and nothing tops Yamaha for reliability and build quality in my experience. The same goes for ATVs.
@@locomike102 Suzuki and Kawi are not way behind. Ojectively, the big 4 Japanese are within a few percent of each other in reliability reports. Subjectively, I've ran at least 1 bike from each of the big 4 into the ground and never had a defect-related failure in any of them.
I really appreciate your no BS approach to reviews. Your first hand experience and objective observations can't be beat (not to mention the seamless editing). Thanks and keep Rocking!
I've heard the argument regarding tubeless versus tubed tyres for ages - This is the first time I've heard anyone calmly explain why people prefer the different options - AWESOME WORK!!! Actually this whole video was interesting and well structured, with good info and enough riding footage to keep me engaged :)
@@jordesign yes. the tubeless quibble is total bs. whether one rides tubes or tubeless, he will carry a spare tube. if he cannot plug a tubeless tire, he'll install a tube. i only run tubeless and neutech tubliss. i can fix most punctures flats in a few mins without removing tire. in the rare event that tire is so damaged that i cannot plug it, i'll install a tube. so, the tubeless criticism is bs and misinformation. tubeless is much much easier option and no worries about pinch flats. i totally disagree with the tubeless criticism. tubes suck.
@@damytzeus Yep! 100%. As I said in a separate comment, the only real disadvantage to tubeless is that you have to pay a premium (or trust a DIY project) to get them.
@damytzeus I do see one potential downside to tubeless, and that is that tubes will allow you to go down to lower tyre pressures in low grip environments (like sand) without worrying about the tyre coming off the bead or dirt in the bead, etc. Of course, you do then have the downside of now worrying about pinch flats, and also the extra weight of the tube set up (I've seen guys save about 2 kgs of unsprung weight by switching to tubeless), but it is really going to depend on your type of riding as to which you'd prefer. I'd say most people would do better with tubeless, but tubes do have their advantages.
You're the bomb, buddy👍. Balanced, INTELLIGENT, objective, and incredibly helpful reviews. So glad you were able to get things worked out with regaining control of your channel after the hackers messed with you.
Other thoughts.. I recently put 600+ miles mostly dirt on my 790r camped out at Mammoth around the 28th Sept. The revvy nature of the 790r, low engine flywheel effect that bothers beginners wanting low end torque makes that bike with the chosen traction settings super flickable in the trees! Uncanny! Felt at times like my 500! Climbs hills I surprised myself. Get back on road, select road, or rally, sport bike like. You said yourself most versatile. Had the time of my life sloshing around back there. Walk to the garages, see it, have that smile. 5k miles almost. Nice review. Cb
I considered doing that before, trucking my bike somewhere to camp and ride so that I can keep my bike light for day rides. Do you just leave your truck at a campsite unattended? That part always sketches me out that someone would screw with my shit. Mammoth is an awesome area to ride so I'm itching to just go..
Great presentation of the strengths and weaknesses of each bike. In my case, recall issues and very poor dealer service experience led me to sell my R1200GS Adventure even though I loved riding it. I wanted to get a Tenere 700 but my local dealer could not get one in 2021. I bought a base model Africa Twin DCT instead. I did not consider either of the mid size KTMs because of reliability concerns. I did not consider another BMW based on my experience with dealer service. With respect to the Austrian and German brands, I don't believe they intentionally sacrifice reliability for performance. I worked as a reliability engineer for part of my career. The methods of achieving reliability are not rocket science. It is primarily based on 3 things - design margin for strength of mechanical parts, rigorous testing to find the weak links and good quality control processes both internally and with parts vendors. The premium Euro brands have talented staff that know this. IMO, they sacrifice reliability for increased profits because they can still sell every bike they make based on image and perception of higher performance. Their profit per bike sold goes up if they cut out reliability testing and strict quality control processes.
I was reliability engineer too. Granted it was years ago. I found design engineers don’t take reliability seriously. Think it’s just extra work. I owned a 790 adv. most of my issues were mfg defects. Lack of quality control. Like it was assembled by engineering techs, which maybe it was. Stripped screws. Now, they know the rear shock is an issue. The Japanese look at it differently. They just consider quality part of the job. I worked for Japanese auto supplier. They use SPC religiously. Quality and no defects were a given.
well written. As a former BMW-mechanic (15 years) I just can say you are absolutly right. The quality of the bikes went less after every new model which they released. I still love BMW..... before 1200 cc. (proud owner of a T7 rally)
Makes a lot of sense. I own motorcycles, cars, trucks, tractors, heavy equipment, music gear(I’m a musician and play in studio and bands), and lots of tools. I used to let my patriotism, pride and ego create Bias in my decisions. I let all that go. It is FACT that Japan had its act together on a quality and consistency in value (they can do this even if it’s a budget level machine or whatever). Germans can machine things precisely out of quality materials, but they always have overall flaws. Kaizen. Culture. Idk what it is but, Japan is serious about quality. I love classic American music instruments. The “sound”. The wood. Etc. In regards to drumsets. I LOVE USA made Ludwig drums from North Carolina. The look and sound is amazing. But, every time I bought a USA drumset…I’d have to disassemble it and reassemble it to get everything torqued correctly with proper washers and nuts and such. I can buy budget levels Japanese drums….Yamaha for example, and every screw, nut, bolt is precisely torqued. Even the cheaper Chinese version. There is something wrong in USA. Yes, we build the best war weapons, jets, tanks, large machinery, rockets, and guns. We have access to the best steel and materials. But when it comes to assembly…I guess we have too many Kid Rocks and Joe Dirts in the factory. White trash hung over spiteful factory workers I guess? Yes, there are exceptions. Just as a whole. In regard to dirt bikes. The Japanese seem to limit features and focus on quality. KTM throws the ideas out there and goes for it. They sell what we “want”. But, it seems the features are not quality checked. And the models change so frequently. I love the slick features, light weightness of the KTM stuff. But holy hell. It seems most people won’t admit the reliability issues until “after” they get their bike sold. It is hard to ride an old xr650L beside a super lightweight 501 KTM in the mountain trails. There are no comparisons. But it seems that the old xr650L will just keep running year after year.
@@technicalitems731 I feel your point. As a reseller of electric tools for more then 30 years in durabilty the Japanese are way up in the top of quality. And it is quit simple to adress why. It is simply a honer thing. It is rooted in the Japanese culture over a very very long time. And we Westeners are lacking honer. We want profit as quicly as possible. And we don't feel bad when a customer has to do day in and day out a shitty job and will be ripped off. Because what do we really do ? We sell those hard working people simply an idea. An idea of exploring the world. To get free and escape from the shackles of their not forfilling jobs and mortgages. BMW is almost a bit wicked in that. They have spend so much money for the psycholical side of selling. And the long way round did not make this better. Just worse. An awfull quility control. Well aware of the bigger tolerances in their products and parts. Profit, profit and profit as much as possible and in the big numbers. Our CEO's in the Western world. Most of them have really psychologicall problems. This was an outcome from a big and reliable study. Most of the Western CEO's are narcastic and are a bit of a psychopath. They think that they have to ruthless and because of their mentall problems they do not loose one night sleep over firing honest and hard working people. And also not in holding them into a psychologicall grip. But then what really will start to happen is that the " spirit" of a company will get lost. And a screw will not get fixed as it should have been properly fixed. In countries as Japan they are aware of this. Our Western CEO's are most of the time just really useless people who do more harm then good. But it is what it is. And our Western future will become even more black then as it already is. We are walking the completely wrong path. Amen.🙏😎
Good comparison - thanks. I am a very satisfied T7 owner. I’m an older rider and don’t ride as aggressively as I did years ago. I also value reliability over performance so all in all the T7 is a good bike for me. I too carry a fuel Rotopax to increase my range. I wish it had cruise control but I can live without it. I purchased an aftermarket tubeless rear wheel; I keep a more street biased tube tire in the OEM wheel and a more trail biased tire on the tubeless. Thanks again - ride safe.
Another objective, well-experienced, researched vid and you just ‘nailed’ the comparison of the 2 bikes. Reliability is a STRONG trait to beat in ANY product, especially when beyond immediate “help”.
I’ve seen more than one video where someone got stranded on a KTM because a sensor or wiring went bad. Besides that, it’s such a cool bike. If reliability wasn’t a priority for me, I’d definitely get one.
Thanks for your honest opinion , I owed the T7, and all you said is correct, I put on better suspension front and rear, added crash bars and a better bottom bash plate, install better air filter and pre filter, added a thumb cruise control and heated grips, very happy with the bike, also put on the tusk soft panniers and racks, so you can take the bags on on and off with the quick release pin. And have the desert fox gas bag.
Another great, informative & enlightening review. I was also undecided between these two bikes, but ended up buying the 790R. The Port Elizabeth (South Africa) KTM dealership played big part in my final decision. They gave me a very good price for my old 1190, & the 790R ended up cheaper than the T7. I have had some issues with the KTM franchise not honouring their commitments to warranty claims for parts breaking, but the PE dealership once again proved to be the best I have ever dealt with by taking care of those issues for me. I am also quite new to adventure riding, especially the dirt riding aspect, but I am very happy, so far, with my choice. Thanks again for a great, unbiased & honest review
Another top video . Normally I don't watch long videos anything longer than 7 to 10 minutes but I seem to enjoy your videos because I like the way you run your comparison, it's very thorough.
Fantastic video with sensible comparisons, which inform the average rider. Happy to report though that after 17500km (mostly off road) on my 890R I've not experienced any of the issues you've mentioned. Love your videos brother.
This compression ratio is very interesting and a very good point , it also to a small degree explains the Honda Africa Twin and Honda's reliability , the Africa Twin comp. ratio is 10.1.1 , VERY GOOD point sir
High Compression in itself does not shorten enginelife. If the engine is constructed that way from the factory, all other parts are sized for it. Upping the compression on an engine on the other hand will shorten engine life.. Look at diesels, they 18:1 an higher, and diesels will run forever..
@@pgkr67 Diesels apparently last a lot longer because of increased lubrication. I'm thinking engine life largely depends on lubrication ability/oil changes/ highway vs city/ how thrashed the engine is?
@@pgkr67 well, look at a low compression bike like a Dr 650 compared to a KTM 500, the DR engine lasts a lot longer with less maintenance, and diesels last forever due to low rpm and being vastly overbuilt and heavy.
Compression ratios,high or low,,arent immediate indicators of reliability......the engine maker designs it all as a package,top to bottom. The rods and crank and cases are designed to last a long time with the higher CR ratio....it wouldnt make sense otherwise.
I just discovered your channel and I have to say... GREAT JOB IAN!! You are by far the most detailed, non-bias and experienced ADV bike reviewer I have ever come across. Thank you for all the hard work. Keep at it!
Thank you for that excellent, comprehensive and very fair comparison of 3 interesting bikes. I really appreciate the thoroughness of your preparation and coverage. It was very helpful. I now favour the T7 but would prefer tubeless wheels and better suspension. Safe roads!
Very well made comparison. Love what you’re doing! Keep on the good work! A month ago I’ve made a UA-cam video on why I changed from the T7 to the 890 advR. For me the main reason was the low centre of gravity.
The 3rd gear wheelies are also fun on the 890R. The effortless 4000 rpm cruising is a pleasant way to ride when not in a big hurry. I laugh when walking away from the 890R,every time,too much fun!
@@bradsanders6954 I am constantly thinking about what to do. I own a 1190R. Should i buy a Honda CRF 300 Rally and spend a lot of extra money on it. Or should i trade in the 1190r and go for a 890R ? On my bucketlist is a trip from the Netherlands to Turkey and Iran. 2 till 3 months in the backcountry. And see as much forgotten history as possible. I love the raw power of my current ktm. But it is way to heavy for technicall offroad. Would i be possible to do it all with a 890R ?
@@keesverhagen9227 Im getting used to my 890R more after almost 4000 miles,its no lightweight really but is pretty nice on any dirt road Ive taken it on....if you love the power of 1190 a 300 Rally probably wont keep your interest long...a test ride on an 890 would be a good thing. They're a nice bike on or off road.
As always, a great job on the comparison. Two areas you did not address and which tilt in the 890's favor are actual price paid and availability. When I decided to upgrade from my KLR650 early this year, there were no T7s available at the dealers in my area. And, when they came in, they would have $1,500 to $2,500 added to the price. My local KTM dealer had five 890 Rs on the floor. I got mine at MSRP and they threw in an extended warranty. I was leaning 890 anyway, due to the extra tech, the fuel range and the on-road performance. If I had insisted on the T7, I would have spent September watching UA-cam videos of the Continental Divide instead of riding it. Perhaps I have just been lucky, but my 890R has given me 7,500 trouble-free miles.
Based on your reviews my plans for next year's purchase of a motorcycle had become clearly obvious. Simple clear concise technique for reviews thank you.
I have test drive a 790 and 890 and really was impressed by everything it did except of the engine at low RPM so I decided buying a T7 which eventually discovered as mistake as I didn’t love at all its high center of gravity and it was hell to pick up when it falls to ground, it also felt to me quite old school and cheep
Great comparison. Your videos are just getting better one after another. You explained very well that the ktm engine is a more high performance and high rev engine, but maybe you should also have said that the T7 engine provides a more torque engine in low revs when doing a slower pace and more thecnical offroad. In the T7 you can do almost all the tracks in 2nd or 3rd gear. Keep up the good work. Thanks.
Totally agree. On the T7 I can close the throttle In 3rd gear all the way down to idle and then tractor out… ANY KTM would have stalled out. Huge difference!
11:16 in, this video is so valuable to me as a new rider buying my first bike. The differences are summarised and explained so I can understand and compare. Compression ratios, IMU, tyres types... Hadn't yet managed to consider these.
Then, I would buy one, straight away. As is, Japanese bikes lack that quantum leap in optimum, design and performance. KTM lacks quality control, and hence reliability.
There is no perception on reliability. KTM suffers from reliability due to lack of quality control. Get quality control right, and the reliability of KTM will improve immensely.
Perfect thoughts and points. Maybe an episode talking about dealership issues. The best KTM/BMW dealer known to man is Eurosport Asheville, if you ever need parts or anything, call and talk to Travis.
thanks for this. Nice, in depth, useful and well presented. I had a 2014 Vstrom 1000 for 7 years and cannot fault the reliability, rideability, balance etc - a very honest, lovely bike to tour (the attributes the Tenere 700 will have although it's more off the beaten path focused). I traded to a run-out KTM 790 Adventure (standard, not R) because the price for a new Tenere was virtually the same and the Tenere was in short supply anyway). I totally understand the reliability thing but this time I wanted to take the "gamble" in order to get things like cruise control, tubeless tyres and other goodies that the KTM provided. I didn't go in blind - I was willing to trade other things I value for these things I wanted to try. Most of my riding will be sealed roads and decent dirt roads although I'll still do rough stuff to get to somewhere new. I EXPECT some issues down the track but another thing I added to the buying equation was that my standard Adventure won't get the same (mis)treatment as will many of the Rs, where owners seem to want to test the bike's mechanical integrity to the limit- so I'm probably in a better position to minimise potential problems. 3,000 kms now and nothing yet. It's proven a capable and stupendously fuel efficient steed to this point - I've always wanted to get 500+ kms between refills and this will do it quite readily - a boon for covering big distances between outback Australian towns
The 890 r is a beast. It does just want to run, on and off road. I ride a 300xc-w and just picked up an 890 adventure r and I couldn't believe how well it does off road. It's not something you can just toss around like the 300 but it was surprisingly nimble and it ate up the rocks and bumps at speed like they weren't there. I found myself having to actually pay attention and slow down from time to time because a crash with that big of a bike could be bad but it didn't want to go slow.
I really was in 2 thoughts about Tenere vs KTM790 now I've made my choice. Thank you so much for this valuable info. As a previous owner of Tenere 660 and out of it for 2 years, ready to go back in the saddle it has to be the Tenere 700
The KTM maintenance thing is a bit of a myth. It may have been that way years ago, but have never had any issues with my KTMs. I've owned 5, and all have been rock solid for years of hard riding with no maintenance issues. The T700 is a good value, but you will want to upgrade the suspension right away and the wheels are not the strongest either. Upgrades can easily take you to KTM cost levels. The KTM 890 R is such a capable off road machine and comes ready for the trail. The wieght is down low and the suspension is superb. Its very confidence inspiring. Unless you absolutely can't afford the added cost, it's the clear winner and would be my choice every time.
Hey thanks for your unbiased comparison, keep up with the good work! Pretty much spot on, same dilemma with me, decided with the T7 all things considered, still waiting for she to arrive though... I've been searching for aftermarket solutions for the T7, bumped in MCcruise electronic cruise control, 22L acerbis fuel tank, higher spring rate for the rear, touratech seat, etc. Aside from suspension, I'm wondering if these upgrades would make the T7 the obvious choice over the 890r, and eventually still keep some money in the pocket for fuel...!
Good review, I just got my first adventure bike, coming from small dual sport dirt bikes, it400, cr250,wr250r,drz400e,yz250fx and the 28000mi 2013wr250r is my favorite, here is my review with 2500miles on the T7, first what I like, motor very good, suspension very good by just changing clickers to rebound 10 out and compression 6 out and preload cranked hard, for me handles good on dirt and road, yamaha reliability, like the styling, what I don't like, seams the bars are to far from the seat, its heavy, if you riding it hard and by accident you get on gnarly rocks, roots, dirt and your picking good lines doing very good then it happens, you drop it, your by yourself, now you realize your on a very hard trail over your head, you drop it again and again, get stuck in a mud hole, wow did I say heavy, Talking to myself the whole time, what was I thinking, I think maybe just get one of them new 300 from honda or Kawasaki just put a windscreen and call it my advernture bike, just saying
Thanks for a great video. I own a 790 ADV R 2020. Love the bike, but having some issues that KTM Sweden refuse to fix. Even that warranty is still valid. Looking for a replacement!
reliability and performance are not mutually exclusive - ktm is just prioritizing cost reduction and margins increase over customer's satisfaction, its a bad strategy in the long term imo as they jeopardising sales. Another thing to consider when buying a ktm are the extra costs of i.e. qs, riding modes, heated grips these you need to pay extra for, at least thats what they do on the "duke" platform. Despite all that i do think that ktm has potential, however they need to fix things and they def need to support their customers when issues are reported. p.s. thanks for the video i found it very informative
Very perceptive and keen comparison, thanks, man! Beyond the superb Yamaha reliability, I also appreciate your concern on access to quality gas in remote countries. In short, for "world travelers", who don't priorize speed and high performance over scenery, the T7 beats all the way!! Greetings 🇧🇴
Nobody who rides either needs even the horsepower that the Tenere has. Let's be real. Most KTM riders I've met have more money than brains, and even less in the riding skills department, same goes for most Doucheati owners lololol
The KTM’s really rock but your comments on ownership and reliability are soooo true. I have been stranded in the desert twice. Sold my 990 because of issues. My 690 has spent over a month in the shop the internet will tell you all about the issues. It’s a shame because the the reliable Japanese bikes just don’t have the fun factor.. There are a number of well known issues on the KTM’ s but the company doesn’t warranty them as well.
Compression rating is not biggie when the engine is built for it. Think diesel engines. They run 16-22 to 1 compression rate, and they last a long time. In terms of fuel. Both the 790 and the 890 has knock sensors. If you fill up with low octane fuel, it will handle it..
Very nice, fair comparison. I could own either bike but the reliability of the T7 is a big deal. The Yamaha CP2 engine was tested by a German outfit and was deemed the most reliable motorcycle engine. The engine has awesome character too. I have a 2020 MT-07, it is a really fun, light weight bike.
Really enjoy your comprehensive bike reviews, and believe they are among the best on youtube! Great balance between your data analysis and road tests. Also love the intermittent charting and tables - especially great for making quick comparisons of critical data between models. I have heard an increasing number of KTM owners reporting problems with excessive engine heat. To a point where more than a few riders, particularly those doing a lot of stop and go riding in urban traffic, actually suffered first degree burns on their legs, likely facilitated by the lack of air flow, especially on hot summer days. Experience anything similar while operating a KTM 790 or 890? Thanks.
Perhaps one of the most thorough, unbiased, and intelligent motorcycle comparison videos I have ever seen, which is what the average consumer wants. Thumbs up. Quite frankly, I would choose the Tenere 700 for its reliability. but which it had cruise control, color TFT, quick shift, and Tubeless Tires. Even that long travel suspension might not seem to be necessary for urban riding, you should see some of the roads I have to ride on here in the midwest ! Bumps that make you go OUCH ! I would love to see you do one on a bike I am considering(, 2022 Yamaha Tracer 9 after a a few months of ownership, but that is a different, less dirt oriented bike than what you are into, so not likely.
Great review man. I appreciate your detailing of the unique things you noticed about each bike. I think some riders will prefer the KTM based on your review, and others will prefer the Yamaha, based on the same review. FYI: I'm probably going the Yamaha route.
I am a returning rider after nearly a decade of too much car use!! I would love a Tenere 700 and think it is the top of my list. However, as a returner even 10,000 dollars is a lot of money. So I will begin on a smaller Honda CRF 300 and hone my skills set as the tenere will be sooo much more capable than me!! Thank you for taking the time to do this video, it is appreciated.
Enjoyed you video - very objective........ compliments. I'm doing Vladivostok to Europe next year and was wondering about doing it on an 890R (vs my 1250) but my biggest concern is reliability (.....actually peace of mind). When I did Southern Africa, the US and the Middle East I was not concerned about reliability. Stay well and ride safe.
And what bike you will use? The 890? I’m thinking about getting the 890r or the t7, and, omg! I can’t decide… I travel a lot around Europe every years, a lot of kms off-road and highway, the t7 fuel range is so frustrating, but the reliability of the 890r kills me…
Excellent review! I think the 790/890 is just so revolutionary and ahead of its time, that's maybe why KTM struggled with the reliability. I had a couple of issues with mine but I still absolutely love that bike. It's an acquired taste though. First impression is that it looks and sounds terrible. But it just grows on you. I plan on keeping mine for a very long time. Thanks again for the review.
There is nothing revolutionary or ahead of its time about this bike. Everything they did to it has been done before. That is absolutely no excuse for bad quality.
"I hope they (KTM) will work out these issues...." They probably won't. I own a KTM 690 Enduro R. Great bike, fairly light and powerful and great for extended dirt roads. However I don't think I would buy another KTM. My bike has only given me a couple of issues (fuel pump failure being one), and overall it's easy to work with. What gets me though is they've had fuel pump issues since they released the model in 2009. Mine was a 2017 model and they should have fixed the issue by then. I also found the wiring loom to be badly terminated/poorly protected, and there are other known weak spots for which you are basically expected to buy expensive aftermarket parts to resolve, when they would cost a couple of dollars if they fixed them at the time of manufacturing (such as stronger subframe bolts, fragile fuel filler cap that lets dust in...). All they seem to do each year is change the stickers, whereas it should be evolving into a bulletproof adventure/enduro platform right out of the box. As you correctly said, they prioritize performance and weight over reliability.
Well, I mean the more they play on your heart strings with amazing riding capability, great sound, agressive design and all that gets ur emotions rise, better the chances that u'd buy another one few yrs down the line if not earlier. That is, unless u know what u value. Meanwhile if a manufacturer designs a bulletproof machine with the same performance u wouldn't have any reason to put any money into it, much less buying another one. Just pure consumerism 🍊🍋 Same can be said about Yamaha but in a different way. The way Yamaha makes money is out from modifications, licensing and pure brand awareness. They're undoubtly the most marketable Motorcycle brand around so they don't need to do much but just to release a good product that's as moddable as it's commercially viable once every 2-3 yrs and the product basically sells itself. Their machines are tuned to be reliable and fun but certainly not to be the best cuz that's where U, the consumer, comes in. ; ) Yamaha concept of Motorcycling is basically one of the few rn that could survive the apocalypse and that's because its adaptable, customizable and elastic, thus it feels more human and alive, KTM can't do that yet since they're not as recognizable nor big compared to the Japanese giants so they took more of a consumerism route. It works now but few yrs down the line some changes will be made Looking at how the world is now. Meanwhile they will still be making SUPERB machines with doubtable reliability cuz that's what's sells.
To be fair they've addressed a lot of stuff too rocker arms, fuel cap, clutch slave cylinder e.t.c. - 2021 is much more reliable and overall better machine then 2009. Plus I suspect 690/701 is a very niche bike that that does not sells in big numbers, changing things it much more expensive then couple of bucks.
@@alexanderzhulin3528 That's a good point - I forgot about the rocker arms. I thin They were fixed by the time got mine but I still have spares in case. What is annoying is that each time they bring out a new model they have a tendency to quietly "fix" these issues without saying so -- I mean you never get a comprehensive list of improvements or changes that shows some level of transparency and would give you more confidence in the brand.
@@alexanderzhulin3528 How can subframe bolrs and clutch slave cylinder O ring issue etc? How the heck NOT NOT be a couple buck issues??....seriously? I mean supposedly they FINALLY did something with the slave cylinder but not the first time I heard that either It bothers me how care less the company seems to be about important things....like charging money to make the 690 safe in the dirt...you have to PAY for a "dong;e" to insure you have back brake.....THAT is like criminal if you ask me
Really good review! Densely packed info all the way through. In fact this is the most info in the fewest minutes I can remember seeing. Thank you for valuing our time!
Thanks for being honest. I will probably never buy KTM, the quality / reliability is just unacceptable. Rather just rent one and let the the owner deal with the problems :D
Yeah I bought a 2019 790 adventure and while I do love riding the bike everything else is just bullshit. I gotta figure out what I want n I'm trading mine in. I'm thinking the new tiger 900, Vstrom 1050, or maybe even that new harley pan america. Something. But one thing is for sure I'm am sick and tired of the shop having my kTm more than me. Sucks cause like I said I really do love riding the bike.
@@bdraidian6280 Brett Tecks just did a video on the Tiger 900 and had nothing bad to say. That is the one I would have an eye on of the ones you listed. Vstrom will be dead reliaible tho. Harely is tempting, but I will let others find out the kinks so Harley can fix them for the 2nd year model. People are already reporting problems starting the engine.
I support your thoughts exactly. although I dont own either bikes I consider them as an alternative to my bmw 800gs. I consider reliability the most important thing when buying a motorcycle. KTM need to get some quality control in their factories or employ some more competent engineers. Some of the faults they have in their bikes that I read continuously about are just poor design and inferior quality. That should not happen on an expensive motorbike. I wont buy one until I read their quality is vastly improved
Agreed with some regret as I love the KTM's look and design. But some of the horror stories I've read? Well no thanks. I'm happy and content with my 2018 Africa Twin
Quality control and KTM do not go hand-in-hand, even less so now that most of their stuff is being made in China! Reliability - that is why I own an F800GSA!!
Great breakdown. Accurate. The bonus with a KTM is you have a bike that is "basically" off-road-ready for a rider over 165 lbs. with enough adjustability/suspension to do off-road. The downside is you're dealing with KTM bugs. A T700 would take 3-5K in suspension and farkles to make it competitive and then you're still missing some basics like Cruise Control. It's not an easy decision.
Yep… I’m thinking about to get one of the two and I can’t decide…. Every year I do a “big” travel in adventures bikes (1 month without stop), and I can’t decide what is the best… the scary of the reliability of the Ktm or the crappy fuel range of the T7…
@@gomesracer I look at KTM's like VOLVO's...they never run right, but they usually are at least running. I met Bret Tkacs in Nashville and we all know his opinion on KTM. I test road a Tiger 900 Rally Pro...if I were in this market and price range it would be on my short list. He just did a video on one. Again...the downside is aftermarket support, reliability, depreciation, etc...but it was an AMAZING bike.
p.s. I had to remind my friend with one who was complaining to our BMW friend about the reliability that KTM is Austrian...not GERMAN! :) (Me on my Honda...just sat back and chuckled)
I have been riding a 790 for 4 years and agree with you on the KTM reliability, performance and issues. It is currently getting new cams and a head paid for by KTM. Thank goodness. My Triumph 800 XC and DR are just as much fun to ride with much less issues and drama. There is something to say about reliability and peace of mind while out on a multiple day trip. I also agree with you on tubeless tires vs tube tires. Thanks for everything.
Such a informative and common sense review of these bikes. It's huge you have ownership experience with both. You always answer the questions that I have. Well done again!
Own a 2019 KTM 790R. So far no issues with it after 7000 miles. But I have talked with a few other 790 owners who have experienced failures of one sort or the other. The old yarn on buying any sort of motorized vehicle was to find out whether it was assembled in the factory on a Friday if you could. The 790 I own has been recalled twice. Once for the rear brake and once for the front brakes. KTM used their own design instead of Brembo probably to save money which probably seemed like a good idea at the time. After both recalls I'll bet their management regret that decision. Visual appeal definitely goes to the T700. The KTM 790/890 is a quirky looking motorcycle.
I own a 790 S since Aug 2020 ...I find your analysis very accurate. Fantastic Bike , but I had problems with front brake though. Both discs were replaced under warranty . I had many Hondas before...I was not prepared for this kind of issues. As you said, we all Hope KTM will work more on reliability.
I had a 2011 1190 Adventure and loved riding it. But it suffered from a lot of little problems, the worst of which, an oil leak, that took a year for the dealer to solve. I eventually sold it for that reason. Then I owned a 2016 Husky 501 FE, and it had similar issues. It's sad to hear that KTM hasn't solved their QC issues, because their bikes are really fun to ride. You make a good point about weight vs reliability.
100% agree. That is why I moved from KTM after 20+ years. Just constant issues, big and small. Fun to ride and I do love KTM but enough is enough. My 350 XCF even snapped it's swing arm!
Yep Friends bike snapped it's 1190R frame also. He does ride it hard off road to be fair but I would expect a "hardcore" off road brand like KTM to take a good G out with falling apart. KTM have had a heap of issues with the porous engine cases. Might explain your oil leak? Of was it something else the dealer found?
We saw your recent ride over the rocky surfaces on the Yamaha. I was worn out just watching ha. A lot to be said for the better KTM suspension. The KTM saddle tanks are brilliant - they mimic a Boxer motor. Great thorough review, to save $3k or not, that is the question ha.
I agree but the KTM suspension still needs work. If you have to modify both then what does it matter. The Yamaha is still less to start with. Never owned a ADV bike that hasn't needed suspension work for proper off road work.
@@twowheelpilot The options for T7 suspension now IMO makes it handle much better than the KTM when you spend the difference on upgrades, all with zero of the reliabilty issues or breakdown of fancy electronics which have done very miserably here in Australia.
Very good points regarding compression ratio, and the various consequences. It's no secret that many Japanese motorcycles are very reliable. Another good video... thank you.
Only thing I will say going to compression ratios. The KTM 790/890 fuel management system can handle low octane fuel. The knock sensor which will detect pre-detonation and correct with ignition timing. But great review! Very in-depth
Invaluable review. The takeaway is reliability and peace of mind on a bdr or that worry in the back of your head that your super performing, lightweight bike might cause you some fits... and possibly far away from services. As a senior rider you've helped me make my personal decision. Love your Channel, SUPER INFORMATIVE. keep up the great work. Thanks..
Another great review Ian. I sold my KTM 790 adventure R, and I’m now shopping around for T7, simply because of the reliability factor. I only wish it had tubeless tires and a more comfortable seat.
I've had plans to buy a new bike for the next riding season. I've had my eye on the T7 but they are impossible to find. Now I've been vacillating back and forth between the T7 and 890. I literally can't make up my mind. I've decided that which ever one makes it self available by spring, I'll buy.
Where i live, the tenere 700 world raid cost me £9995 brand new, and a KTM 890 R was £8995, brand new. I opted for the Tenere for the reasons mentioned in the video - reliability. I sleep much better at night for this. Am very happy with it, looking forward to many dependable miles. I have come from an R1200GSA, and a Tracer 9gt. Althought the 9gt had all the bells and whistles, i dont miss any of the electronics.
Great comparison - very fair and unbiased. Kudos! I think the KTM's sound may have something to do with the firing order (meant to mimic the 75 degree KTM twins), but the Tenere sounds like a badass bike should. My 790R has been trouble free luckily, but if you had those issues I can see it spoiling the experience. It is nice to see more and more options out there. Cheers
I own a KTM 790R. He has totally nailed the bike, the pros/cons, the ownership experience. KTM banks on people to expect less of a good dealership and ownership experience in lieu of best of breed performance. They dont have to, but they do. Dealers suck. Luckily my bike has been hugely reliable after 5000k miles. Zero issues with a good portion off road. Great review. I would buy either bike and for the exact reasons he listed on both sides.
Really really loved this review. You hit the nail on the head many times and stayed unbiased and explained a lot of different perspectives and made some points that I’m sure others (including myself) weren’t considering. I desperately hope that you can do a 790/890 vs Tiger 900 Rally Pro review as well once you’ve had enough time on the Tiger. I strongly believe with how much better technology has gotten in the last decade that we should be able to have a bike with tech like the KTM and reliability similar to the Yamaha, and I’m hoping the Tiger 900 is the answer. It’s on my short list of bikes I’m considering for next season, along with the Norden 901 and Aprilia Tuareg 660.
Well said I have a KTM 300 XC great bike....... never left me on the trail but it’s had its problems. For an ADV bike I’ll stick with the Japanese. May not be “Ready to Race” but always ready to ride!
i have ride the 790s a lot, i own one, and i have ride a friends t7.. and... i love the t7... not more than i love my 790 since i made my 790 pretty mine with mods and everything... but he t7 is lacking in certain areas where my 790s is not... even the suspension on the t7 would bottom out after dialing it for the weight of the rider while the 790s will not bottom out... obviously you can push the 790s suspension even futher and make it bottom out but is by abusing it rather than logically using it... even after revalve and re-sprung both of the bikes the 790s Apex 43's are a big leap ahead, like it moves even further apart of what the t7 has to offer... probably that's the reason why so many people are installing 3000 dollars worth on suspension on every t7 i see out there... at least here in Europe... for 10.000 dollars the T7 is a steal, you can do the same, and reach the same spots as you will with a 790s or 790r, the different lays in how well you feel in both bikes... for me there is pretty difficult to compare by words both bikes since they are so much different... because the 790 is completly different than any bike out there... on the T7 i feel like in another adventure bike... in the 790 i feel like in a naked bike with 21-18's... You have done a great, respectful video of this two bikes... i have 20k's on my 790S right now, trouble free... only a couple of adjustment issues when new before the first service, but after that has been a solid bike... for me, amazing. the 890 has fixed A LOT, a lot, of the 790 issues... on the groups i'm at the failure rate is not even close, not even 10% the first year of failures of the 890 vs what the 790 was from my experience here at Europe groups...
The clutch, the brakes and the exhaust are the same on the 790 as on the 890. People have had lots of problems with these parts. So it looks like they did not fix the bike. Just put a shiny new engine and kept the low quality components.
@@SamiNami No they are not Brake disks are new, they changed the reference on early 2020 for 790's and the 890's come with the new reference, i know because they replaced mine without failure. Cluth is not the same not even close, the baskets and the disk are different. Exhaust... what problem could a exhaust give? condensation? if you consider that a problem probably a electric bike could be better suit.
I wish when people talked about the pricing they would talk about the “dealer fees” too so we can get a better idea of whether or not we’re getting a good deal. The dealer fees add significantly to the price of a bike.
Nice review! I have only had 1 KTM a 1290 SuperAdventure the first generation. I took it on many trips some months long. I had no issues but I understand many do. I sill loved that bike and the only bike I like more than the 890-R is the Norden 901.
$10k for a new T7 is a steal. Yamaha make a Rally version with a bigger tank for $500 more. Then make an SP version with Ohlins adjustable front and rear suspension, sell it for $12k. A range of 3 T7's. No need to add TC, nor power modes, nor a TFT. One of the reasons this bike is a WORLDWIDE best seller is because "keep it simple, stoopid"... oh and it is actually a true dual sport....
I’ll stick with my 2021 Yamaha T7. The only thing is I wish it wasent so top heavy. I also had to install lowering links and I moved the front fork tubes up 1 1/2”-2” up so the front would match the rear. I am 5’8” tall so that’s a must for me.
Great review! You do a very detailed reviews. I think both bikes are fantastic! I know there are reliability issues with the KTM but they are so much better in the performance end of things that it was worth it to me. I own a 790r and have had a few issues but have been pretty lucky so far. I did consider the Yamaha right up tell I found out it has no sub frame. I can do a lot of repair on the KTM and never get close to what it would cost if you had a hard fall on the Yamaha and had to replace the entire frame. The bike would just get totaled by the insurance company. There are people on UA-cam that have had that happen to them. So i will just fix anything that comes up on the KTM for now. Hopefully Yamaha will start using sub frames. If they do I would definitely take a hard look at one.
So my first bike is a 2021 Ktm890S, which I've turned mostly into an R model. Since day one I received mine with 9k miles for 10.2k but had now over 3 times where some the problems above you mentioned and this last one which almost cost me my life throttle sticking in 3rd gear... The live-wire throttle bodie failed... and ktm mechanics stumbled even at ktm. Replaced a wire and housing electronics covered all under warranty until Sept 2023. Just went to the dealer to swap for a more reliable tenere700 t7. Less electronics, less risk. Thank you for your reviews!
I nearly bought a T7. They're non existent so I didnt. 6 months later they still dont exist...None.........But I bought an 890R and holy moly its the funnest bike Ive ever owned. I ended up really liking the electrical package,and the HP,and the torque,and the great handling,even the stock seat works,I dont want it to be a trailbike so the weight of either doesnt matter that much..Is 450 or 470lbs middleweight? Middle of what? 1000 lbs almost? Too big both of them to be any sort of trail or dirtbike. Any dirt road is fine but I'll take a 2 stroke for trail riding anyday....which saves me the trouble of trying to turn my 890R into something it will never be,a great off roadbike.
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Absolutely outstanding review. Your objectivity and candor are commendable. I enjoy each episode, stay safe and keep up your excellent site. GOD BLESS
Love your honesty
@Big Rock Moto Have you thought on upgrading the suspension on the T7 with something like K-tech piston kit or Rally Raid products?
@@mikedeclerck1421 8
Hey, good video once again bro! I have been expecting your video in CB500X. It would be nice if you can do a comparison of that vehicle against Triumph's Tiger 660 sport.
Like many riders, I appreciate reliability and dependability over performance, especially when the performance of a machine like the T700 is solid. The price difference doesn't rule my decision because I'm willing to pay for what I want. Thank you for another superb discussion.
Especially with an adventure motorcycle, I wouldn't take anything unreliable into the wilderness, on 2 or 4 wheels, i dont want to be stranded in/on anything miles away from civilization.
But dependability depends on how well the suspension works offroad. If you fall on your arse because the suspension isn't up to the job you have then incurred more cost repairing the bike and perhaps repairing yourself so I guess the moral is, beware false economies.
@@captainwin6333 I would argue you are conflating dependability with capability. If you are taking the bike into a situation where it's outclassed. That is a capability problem. If you have a part randomly fail that should have been fine given the conditions.. like the engine detonating, oil leaks, clutch issues, abs issues, traction control issues, etc. those are reliability issues. The KTM give you a whole slew of tech that the T7 doesn't. That's great if you really want it but if you don't care it's a liability.
I'm looking to buy a new bike this next year and it's between the:
• Aprilia Tuareg 660(80hp, 51.6 ft-lb, 449 lb) $11999 (like this bike, lots of suspension travel, few weird design quirks, not sure about parts availability or reliability)
• Tenere 700(72.4 hp, 50 ft-lb 452 lbs) $10299 (About as simple as it gets, great reliability, lacking the bells and whistles of the competition, little cheaper, little less power, little less capable stock)
• KTM 790 adv R (88.4hp, 59.4 ft-lb, 464 lbs ) $12000 (2020 used, out of warranty) This bike is pretty hardcore but there are reliability issues, Sometimes hot and crazy is fun but do you want to live with it?)
@@christopherbeddoe406 Well, I live with my wife so…
watch the clutch on them
You are to be commended for your in depth analysis.Your effort is greatly appreciated.Thanks JHB-SA.
I appreciate that!
What do you thing Bruce Should I get one?
@@robkennedy8103 I would move up to the 890 being the refined 790 so to spk.Nice to see you here.
Thanks I was afraid that I did all the work for nothing And after-more 50 years riding motorbikes …. and repairing (not the KTM hahaha) but my other motorbikes I thought it’s time to share some of that knowledge. But I’m not that acquainted, whit this way of fomenting in UA-cam’s… I can’t even find my post back …. I maybe have to dig deeper.
About to buy the 790 adventure 2023, just because of this I’m going to look the new Tenere, great work.
I now own a T7, and best advice I'll give anyone looking to get an ADV bike, join the owner groups for each model and brand. Thats what I did 6 months before putting a deposit down on an adv bike. The KTM groups scared me to the point of not even taking a look at them again for a bloody long time. Literally not a single problem on the T7 pages, only issue being the exhaust bracket that everyone cuts off anyway and goes to a high mount, and that is only a problem if you crash it hard. Big Rock did a really good job on this review/comparison, well done mate.
PS: From what I have seen here in Aus, it seems only the Suzuki DR's and Yammy T7's that survive reliably in our harsh environment, and Kawasaki KLR650 gets an honourable mention.
Although I wasn't buying a adventure bike that's exactly what I did to buy my crf450l. Followed the pages for a year. Great advice
I've owned all the Japanese brands, dirt and street, but no ADV bikes and nothing tops Yamaha for reliability and build quality in my experience. The same goes for ATVs.
@@MatthewC137 I agree, although Honda is close. The rest are way behind.
@@locomike102 Suzuki and Kawi are not way behind. Ojectively, the big 4 Japanese are within a few percent of each other in reliability reports. Subjectively, I've ran at least 1 bike from each of the big 4 into the ground and never had a defect-related failure in any of them.
@@trippyrides5674 *EXACTLY* , 👍
I’ve had my T7 for a year now and no crash bars. I have dropped my bike plenty and no damage. Thanks for the video.
I really appreciate your no BS approach to reviews. Your first hand experience and objective observations can't be beat (not to mention the seamless editing). Thanks and keep Rocking!
I've heard the argument regarding tubeless versus tubed tyres for ages - This is the first time I've heard anyone calmly explain why people prefer the different options - AWESOME WORK!!! Actually this whole video was interesting and well structured, with good info and enough riding footage to keep me engaged :)
thanks
@@BigRockMoto I've wondered this about tubeless set up: Can you carry a spare set of tubes and pop tubes into the tire in order to get home?
@@jordesign yes. the tubeless quibble is total bs. whether one rides tubes or tubeless, he will carry a spare tube. if he cannot plug a tubeless tire, he'll install a tube. i only run tubeless and neutech tubliss. i can fix most punctures flats in a few mins without removing tire. in the rare event that tire is so damaged that i cannot plug it, i'll install a tube. so, the tubeless criticism is bs and misinformation. tubeless is much much easier option and no worries about pinch flats. i totally disagree with the tubeless criticism. tubes suck.
@@damytzeus Yep! 100%. As I said in a separate comment, the only real disadvantage to tubeless is that you have to pay a premium (or trust a DIY project) to get them.
@damytzeus I do see one potential downside to tubeless, and that is that tubes will allow you to go down to lower tyre pressures in low grip environments (like sand) without worrying about the tyre coming off the bead or dirt in the bead, etc. Of course, you do then have the downside of now worrying about pinch flats, and also the extra weight of the tube set up (I've seen guys save about 2 kgs of unsprung weight by switching to tubeless), but it is really going to depend on your type of riding as to which you'd prefer. I'd say most people would do better with tubeless, but tubes do have their advantages.
You're the bomb, buddy👍. Balanced, INTELLIGENT, objective, and incredibly helpful reviews. So glad you were able to get things worked out with regaining control of your channel after the hackers messed with you.
Other thoughts.. I recently put 600+ miles mostly dirt on my 790r camped out at Mammoth around the 28th Sept. The revvy nature of the 790r, low engine flywheel effect that bothers beginners wanting low end torque makes that bike with the chosen traction settings super flickable in the trees! Uncanny! Felt at times like my 500! Climbs hills I surprised myself. Get back on road, select road, or rally, sport bike like. You said yourself most versatile. Had the time of my life sloshing around back there. Walk to the garages, see it, have that smile. 5k miles almost. Nice review. Cb
I considered doing that before, trucking my bike somewhere to camp and ride so that I can keep my bike light for day rides. Do you just leave your truck at a campsite unattended? That part always sketches me out that someone would screw with my shit. Mammoth is an awesome area to ride so I'm itching to just go..
@@alvk3996 I camp with an RV, the 790r on the back. No problems
@@CBWANADA fuckin rich americans 😂
Great presentation of the strengths and weaknesses of each bike. In my case, recall issues and very poor dealer service experience led me to sell my R1200GS Adventure even though I loved riding it. I wanted to get a Tenere 700 but my local dealer could not get one in 2021. I bought a base model Africa Twin DCT instead. I did not consider either of the mid size KTMs because of reliability concerns. I did not consider another BMW based on my experience with dealer service. With respect to the Austrian and German brands, I don't believe they intentionally sacrifice reliability for performance. I worked as a reliability engineer for part of my career. The methods of achieving reliability are not rocket science. It is primarily based on 3 things - design margin for strength of mechanical parts, rigorous testing to find the weak links and good quality control processes both internally and with parts vendors. The premium Euro brands have talented staff that know this. IMO, they sacrifice reliability for increased profits because they can still sell every bike they make based on image and perception of higher performance. Their profit per bike sold goes up if they cut out reliability testing and strict quality control processes.
interesting. sounds about right.
I was reliability engineer too. Granted it was years ago. I found design engineers don’t take reliability seriously. Think it’s just extra work. I owned a 790 adv. most of my issues were mfg defects. Lack of quality control. Like it was assembled by engineering techs, which maybe it was. Stripped screws. Now, they know the rear shock is an issue. The Japanese look at it differently. They just consider quality part of the job. I worked for Japanese auto supplier. They use SPC religiously. Quality and no defects were a given.
well written. As a former BMW-mechanic (15 years) I just can say you are absolutly right. The quality of the bikes went less after every new model which they released. I still love BMW..... before 1200 cc. (proud owner of a T7 rally)
Makes a lot of sense. I own motorcycles, cars, trucks, tractors, heavy equipment, music gear(I’m a musician and play in studio and bands), and lots of tools. I used to let my patriotism, pride and ego create Bias in my decisions. I let all that go. It is FACT that Japan had its act together on a quality and consistency in value (they can do this even if it’s a budget level machine or whatever). Germans can machine things precisely out of quality materials, but they always have overall flaws. Kaizen. Culture. Idk what it is but, Japan is serious about quality. I love classic American music instruments. The “sound”. The wood. Etc. In regards to drumsets. I LOVE USA made Ludwig drums from North Carolina. The look and sound is amazing. But, every time I bought a USA drumset…I’d have to disassemble it and reassemble it to get everything torqued correctly with proper washers and nuts and such. I can buy budget levels Japanese drums….Yamaha for example, and every screw, nut, bolt is precisely torqued. Even the cheaper Chinese version. There is something wrong in USA. Yes, we build the best war weapons, jets, tanks, large machinery, rockets, and guns. We have access to the best steel and materials. But when it comes to assembly…I guess we have too many Kid Rocks and Joe Dirts in the factory. White trash hung over spiteful factory workers I guess? Yes, there are exceptions. Just as a whole. In regard to dirt bikes. The Japanese seem to limit features and focus on quality. KTM throws the ideas out there and goes for it. They sell what we “want”. But, it seems the features are not quality checked. And the models change so frequently. I love the slick features, light weightness of the KTM stuff. But holy hell. It seems most people won’t admit the reliability issues until “after” they get their bike sold. It is hard to ride an old xr650L beside a super lightweight 501 KTM in the mountain trails. There are no comparisons. But it seems that the old xr650L will just keep running year after year.
@@technicalitems731 I feel your point. As a reseller of electric tools for more then 30 years in durabilty the Japanese are way up in the top of quality. And it is quit simple to adress why. It is simply a honer thing. It is rooted in the Japanese culture over a very very long time. And we Westeners are lacking honer. We want profit as quicly as possible. And we don't feel bad when a customer has to do day in and day out a shitty job and will be ripped off. Because what do we really do ? We sell those hard working people simply an idea.
An idea of exploring the world. To get free and escape from the shackles of their not forfilling jobs and mortgages. BMW is almost a bit wicked in that. They have spend so much money for the psycholical side of selling. And the long way round did not make this better. Just worse. An awfull quility control. Well aware of the bigger tolerances in their products and parts. Profit, profit and profit as much as possible and in the big numbers. Our CEO's in the Western world. Most of them have really psychologicall problems.
This was an outcome from a big and reliable study. Most of the Western CEO's are narcastic and are a bit of a psychopath. They think that they have to ruthless and because of their mentall problems they do not loose one night sleep over firing honest and hard working people. And also not in holding them into a psychologicall grip. But then what really will start to happen is that the " spirit" of a company will get lost. And a screw will not get fixed as it should have been properly fixed. In countries as Japan they are aware of this. Our Western CEO's are most of the time just really useless people who do more harm then good. But it is what it is. And our Western future will become even more black then as it already is. We are walking the completely wrong path.
Amen.🙏😎
Good comparison - thanks. I am a very satisfied T7 owner. I’m an older rider and don’t ride as aggressively as I did years ago. I also value reliability over performance so all in all the T7 is a good bike for me. I too carry a fuel Rotopax to increase my range. I wish it had cruise control but I can live without it. I purchased an aftermarket tubeless rear wheel; I keep a more street biased tube tire in the OEM wheel and a more trail biased tire on the tubeless. Thanks again - ride safe.
Another objective, well-experienced, researched vid and you just ‘nailed’ the comparison of the 2 bikes. Reliability is a STRONG trait to beat in ANY product, especially when beyond immediate “help”.
I’ve seen more than one video where someone got stranded on a KTM because a sensor or wiring went bad. Besides that, it’s such a cool bike. If reliability wasn’t a priority for me, I’d definitely get one.
Thanks for your honest opinion , I owed the T7, and all you said is correct, I put on better suspension front and rear, added crash bars and a better bottom bash plate, install better air filter and pre filter, added a thumb cruise control and heated grips, very happy with the bike, also put on the tusk soft panniers and racks, so you can take the bags on on and off with the quick release pin. And have the desert fox gas bag.
Hows the weight after all that? Pretty top heavy feeling?
Another great, informative & enlightening review. I was also undecided between these two bikes, but ended up buying the 790R. The Port Elizabeth (South Africa) KTM dealership played big part in my final decision. They gave me a very good price for my old 1190, & the 790R ended up cheaper than the T7. I have had some issues with the KTM franchise not honouring their commitments to warranty claims for parts breaking, but the PE dealership once again proved to be the best I have ever dealt with by taking care of those issues for me. I am also quite new to adventure riding, especially the dirt riding aspect, but I am very happy, so far, with my choice. Thanks again for a great, unbiased & honest review
Thanks for a great review of these two popular bikes. Love the detail and common sense, honest comments. Thanks.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Another top video .
Normally I don't watch long videos anything longer than 7 to 10 minutes but I seem to enjoy your videos because I like the way you run your comparison, it's very thorough.
Awesome, thank you!
Fantastic video with sensible comparisons, which inform the average rider. Happy to report though that after 17500km (mostly off road) on my 890R I've not experienced any of the issues you've mentioned. Love your videos brother.
This compression ratio is very interesting and a very good point , it also to a small degree explains the Honda Africa Twin and Honda's reliability , the Africa Twin comp. ratio is 10.1.1 ,
VERY GOOD point sir
High Compression in itself does not shorten enginelife. If the engine is constructed that way from the factory, all other parts are sized for it. Upping the compression on an engine on the other hand will shorten engine life.. Look at diesels, they 18:1 an higher, and diesels will run forever..
@@pgkr67 Diesels apparently last a lot longer because of increased lubrication. I'm thinking engine life largely depends on lubrication ability/oil changes/ highway vs city/ how thrashed the engine is?
@@pgkr67 Diesels also redline at around 4000 rpm. Their cooling systems are way more efficient too.
To your point: the bottom ends are bulletproof.
@@pgkr67 well, look at a low compression bike like a Dr 650 compared to a KTM 500, the DR engine lasts a lot longer with less maintenance, and diesels last forever due to low rpm and being vastly overbuilt and heavy.
Compression ratios,high or low,,arent immediate indicators of reliability......the engine maker designs it all as a package,top to bottom. The rods and crank and cases are designed to last a long time with the higher CR ratio....it wouldnt make sense otherwise.
The power on a KTM just doesn't stop, that's why people love them, thanks for making these videos.
Yeah, I'll take the"box of rocks".
I just discovered your channel and I have to say... GREAT JOB IAN!!
You are by far the most detailed, non-bias and experienced ADV bike reviewer I have ever come across.
Thank you for all the hard work. Keep at it!
Thank you for that excellent, comprehensive and very fair comparison of 3 interesting bikes. I really appreciate the thoroughness of your preparation and coverage.
It was very helpful.
I now favour the T7 but would prefer tubeless wheels and better suspension.
Safe roads!
Very well made comparison. Love what you’re doing! Keep on the good work! A month ago I’ve made a UA-cam video on why I changed from the T7 to the 890 advR. For me the main reason was the low centre of gravity.
The 3rd gear wheelies are also fun on the 890R. The effortless 4000 rpm cruising is a pleasant way to ride when not in a big hurry. I laugh when walking away from the 890R,every time,too much fun!
@@bradsanders6954 I am constantly thinking about what to do. I own a 1190R. Should i buy a Honda CRF 300 Rally and spend a lot of extra money on it. Or should i trade in the 1190r and go for a 890R ? On my bucketlist is a trip from the Netherlands to Turkey and Iran. 2 till 3 months in the backcountry. And see as much forgotten history as possible. I love the raw power of my current ktm.
But it is way to heavy for technicall offroad. Would i be possible to do it all with a 890R ?
@@keesverhagen9227 Im getting used to my 890R more after almost 4000 miles,its no lightweight really but is pretty nice on any dirt road Ive taken it on....if you love the power of 1190 a 300 Rally probably wont keep your interest long...a test ride on an 890 would be a good thing. They're a nice bike on or off road.
As always, a great job on the comparison. Two areas you did not address and which tilt in the 890's favor are actual price paid and availability. When I decided to upgrade from my KLR650 early this year, there were no T7s available at the dealers in my area. And, when they came in, they would have $1,500 to $2,500 added to the price. My local KTM dealer had five 890 Rs on the floor. I got mine at MSRP and they threw in an extended warranty. I was leaning 890 anyway, due to the extra tech, the fuel range and the on-road performance. If I had insisted on the T7, I would have spent September watching UA-cam videos of the Continental Divide instead of riding it. Perhaps I have just been lucky, but my 890R has given me 7,500 trouble-free miles.
Congratulations ! Your straightforward, clear reviews, no hype, like talking with an old friend !
Keep your great videos coming ! 😊😊
Based on your reviews my plans for next year's purchase of a motorcycle had become clearly obvious. Simple clear concise technique for reviews thank you.
I have test drive a 790 and 890 and really was impressed by everything it did except of the engine at low RPM so I decided buying a T7 which eventually discovered as mistake as I didn’t love at all its high center of gravity and it was hell to pick up when it falls to ground, it also felt to me quite old school and cheep
I watch your channel purely because of your unbiased and honest reviews, great job!
thanks
Great comparison.
Your videos are just getting better one after another.
You explained very well that the ktm engine is a more high performance and high rev engine, but maybe you should also have said that the T7 engine provides a more torque engine in low revs when doing a slower pace and more thecnical offroad. In the T7 you can do almost all the tracks in 2nd or 3rd gear.
Keep up the good work. Thanks.
Totally agree. On the T7 I can close the throttle In 3rd gear all the way down to idle and then tractor out… ANY KTM would have stalled out. Huge difference!
11:16 in, this video is so valuable to me as a new rider buying my first bike. The differences are summarised and explained so I can understand and compare. Compression ratios, IMU, tyres types... Hadn't yet managed to consider these.
Thank you for the side by side comparison of these two great bikes!
Very simple. KTM ought to be made by Yamaha or Honda. ☺
Then, I would buy one, straight away. As is, Japanese bikes lack that quantum leap in optimum, design and performance. KTM lacks quality control, and hence reliability.
There is no perception on reliability. KTM suffers from reliability due to lack of quality control. Get quality control right, and the reliability of KTM will improve immensely.
😂😂😂
Why ?
@@davidmallia628How many KTM’s have you owned?
Perfect thoughts and points. Maybe an episode talking about dealership issues. The best KTM/BMW dealer known to man is Eurosport Asheville, if you ever need parts or anything, call and talk to Travis.
Excellent review! I own a 1250GSA，it’s reliable. But it's too heavy for offroad riding. I want to get the KTM, more funny.
Looking forward to you reviewing the Norden 901.
It will be unreliable. It s a KTM.
thanks for this. Nice, in depth, useful and well presented. I had a 2014 Vstrom 1000 for 7 years and cannot fault the reliability, rideability, balance etc - a very honest, lovely bike to tour (the attributes the Tenere 700 will have although it's more off the beaten path focused). I traded to a run-out KTM 790 Adventure (standard, not R) because the price for a new Tenere was virtually the same and the Tenere was in short supply anyway). I totally understand the reliability thing but this time I wanted to take the "gamble" in order to get things like cruise control, tubeless tyres and other goodies that the KTM provided. I didn't go in blind - I was willing to trade other things I value for these things I wanted to try. Most of my riding will be sealed roads and decent dirt roads although I'll still do rough stuff to get to somewhere new. I EXPECT some issues down the track but another thing I added to the buying equation was that my standard Adventure won't get the same (mis)treatment as will many of the Rs, where owners seem to want to test the bike's mechanical integrity to the limit- so I'm probably in a better position to minimise potential problems. 3,000 kms now and nothing yet. It's proven a capable and stupendously fuel efficient steed to this point - I've always wanted to get 500+ kms between refills and this will do it quite readily - a boon for covering big distances between outback Australian towns
Report back after 50,000 kms; keep a list.
The 890 r is a beast. It does just want to run, on and off road. I ride a 300xc-w and just picked up an 890 adventure r and I couldn't believe how well it does off road. It's not something you can just toss around like the 300 but it was surprisingly nimble and it ate up the rocks and bumps at speed like they weren't there. I found myself having to actually pay attention and slow down from time to time because a crash with that big of a bike could be bad but it didn't want to go slow.
You have become my go to channel for honest-to-God detailed well researched, well rounded rounded reviews and comparisons. Great work! Thanks!
I really was in 2 thoughts about Tenere vs KTM790 now I've made my choice. Thank you so much for this valuable info. As a previous owner of Tenere 660 and out of it for 2 years, ready to go back in the saddle it has to be the Tenere 700
The KTM maintenance thing is a bit of a myth. It may have been that way years ago, but have never had any issues with my KTMs. I've owned 5, and all have been rock solid for years of hard riding with no maintenance issues. The T700 is a good value, but you will want to upgrade the suspension right away and the wheels are not the strongest either. Upgrades can easily take you to KTM cost levels. The KTM 890 R is such a capable off road machine and comes ready for the trail. The wieght is down low and the suspension is superb. Its very confidence inspiring. Unless you absolutely can't afford the added cost, it's the clear winner and would be my choice every time.
Hey thanks for your unbiased comparison, keep up with the good work!
Pretty much spot on, same dilemma with me, decided with the T7 all things considered, still waiting for she to arrive though...
I've been searching for aftermarket solutions for the T7, bumped in MCcruise electronic cruise control, 22L acerbis fuel tank, higher spring rate for the rear, touratech seat, etc.
Aside from suspension, I'm wondering if these upgrades would make the T7 the obvious choice over the 890r, and eventually still keep some money in the pocket for fuel...!
One of the best comparison tests I've seen. Excellent work!
Good review, I just got my first adventure bike, coming from small dual sport dirt bikes, it400, cr250,wr250r,drz400e,yz250fx and the 28000mi 2013wr250r is my favorite, here is my review with 2500miles on the T7, first what I like, motor very good, suspension very good by just changing clickers to rebound 10 out and compression 6 out and preload cranked hard, for me handles good on dirt and road, yamaha reliability, like the styling, what I don't like, seams the bars are to far from the seat, its heavy, if you riding it hard and by accident you get on gnarly rocks, roots, dirt and your picking good lines doing very good then it happens, you drop it, your by yourself, now you realize your on a very hard trail over your head, you drop it again and again, get stuck in a mud hole, wow did I say heavy, Talking to myself the whole time, what was I thinking, I think maybe just get one of them new 300 from honda or Kawasaki just put a windscreen and call it my advernture bike, just saying
Thanks for a great video. I own a 790 ADV R 2020. Love the bike, but having some issues that KTM Sweden refuse to fix. Even that warranty is still valid. Looking for a replacement!
Excellent review as always! Considering the T7 over my V-Strom 650 but I do spend more time on the road than off.
reliability and performance are not mutually exclusive -
ktm is just prioritizing cost reduction and margins increase over customer's satisfaction, its a bad strategy in the long term imo as they jeopardising sales. Another thing to consider when buying a ktm are the extra costs of i.e. qs, riding modes, heated grips these you need to pay extra for, at least thats what they do on the "duke" platform.
Despite all that i do think that ktm has potential, however they need to fix things and they def need to support their customers when issues are reported.
p.s. thanks for the video i found it very informative
Very perceptive and keen comparison, thanks, man!
Beyond the superb Yamaha reliability, I also appreciate your concern on access to quality gas in remote countries. In short, for "world travelers", who don't priorize speed and high performance over scenery, the T7 beats all the way!!
Greetings 🇧🇴
Nobody who rides either needs even the horsepower that the Tenere has. Let's be real. Most KTM riders I've met have more money than brains, and even less in the riding skills department, same goes for most Doucheati owners lololol
The KTM’s really rock but your comments on ownership and reliability are soooo true. I have been stranded in the desert twice. Sold my 990 because of issues. My 690 has spent over a month in the shop the internet will tell you all about the issues. It’s a shame because the the reliable Japanese bikes just don’t have the fun factor.. There are a number of well known issues on the KTM’ s but the company doesn’t warranty them as well.
KTM has development cost transfered on customers.....
Great review! Especially liked that you touched on the compression ratios and fuel…something I never would have thought of or considered. Cheers.
Compression rating is not biggie when the engine is built for it. Think diesel engines. They run 16-22 to 1 compression rate, and they last a long time. In terms of fuel. Both the 790 and the 890 has knock sensors. If you fill up with low octane fuel, it will handle it..
Very nice, fair comparison. I could own either bike but the reliability of the T7 is a big deal. The Yamaha CP2 engine was tested by a German outfit and was deemed the most reliable motorcycle engine. The engine has awesome character too. I have a 2020 MT-07, it is a really fun, light weight bike.
Well said!
Engine sound, feel, character, so important, strange that KTM such a letdown there.
Excellent comparison and detailed; concur with your perspective on KTM quality challenges. Curious to what Honda does with the TransAlp.
Always unbiased, balanced and professionally honest reviews 👍👍.. keep it that way . Blessings
Really enjoy your comprehensive bike reviews, and believe they are among the best on youtube! Great balance between your data analysis and road tests. Also love the intermittent charting and tables - especially great for making quick comparisons of critical data between models. I have heard an increasing number of KTM owners reporting problems with excessive engine heat. To a point where more than a few riders, particularly those doing a lot of stop and go riding in urban traffic, actually suffered first degree burns on their legs, likely facilitated by the lack of air flow, especially on hot summer days. Experience anything similar while operating a KTM 790 or 890? Thanks.
Perhaps one of the most thorough, unbiased, and intelligent motorcycle comparison videos I have ever seen, which is what the average consumer wants. Thumbs up. Quite frankly, I would choose the Tenere 700 for its reliability. but which it had cruise control, color TFT, quick shift, and Tubeless Tires. Even that long travel suspension might not seem to be necessary for urban riding, you should see some of the roads I have to ride on here in the midwest ! Bumps that make you go OUCH !
I would love to see you do one on a bike I am considering(, 2022 Yamaha Tracer 9 after a a few months of ownership, but that is a different, less dirt oriented bike than what you are into, so not likely.
thanks
Great review man. I appreciate your detailing of the unique things you noticed about each bike. I think some riders will prefer the KTM based on your review, and others will prefer the Yamaha, based on the same review.
FYI: I'm probably going the Yamaha route.
Thanks for watching!
I am a returning rider after nearly a decade of too much car use!! I would love a Tenere 700 and think it is the top of my list. However, as a returner even 10,000 dollars is a lot of money. So I will begin on a smaller Honda CRF 300 and hone my skills set as the tenere will be sooo much more capable than me!!
Thank you for taking the time to do this video, it is appreciated.
Enjoyed you video - very objective........ compliments. I'm doing Vladivostok to Europe next year and was wondering about doing it on an 890R (vs my 1250) but my biggest concern is reliability (.....actually peace of mind). When I did Southern Africa, the US and the Middle East I was not concerned about reliability. Stay well and ride safe.
Going to interject that you should definitely post videos/pics if you have a channel. Sounds like an awesome ride.
And what bike you will use? The 890? I’m thinking about getting the 890r or the t7, and, omg! I can’t decide… I travel a lot around Europe every years, a lot of kms off-road and highway, the t7 fuel range is so frustrating, but the reliability of the 890r kills me…
Best video. Thanks for doing my homework.
Excellent review! I think the 790/890 is just so revolutionary and ahead of its time, that's maybe why KTM struggled with the reliability. I had a couple of issues with mine but I still absolutely love that bike. It's an acquired taste though. First impression is that it looks and sounds terrible. But it just grows on you. I plan on keeping mine for a very long time. Thanks again for the review.
There is nothing revolutionary or ahead of its time about this bike. Everything they did to it has been done before. That is absolutely no excuse for bad quality.
You can really tell how much thought and care you put in to your presentation. We’ll done, subscribed!
Thanks
"I hope they (KTM) will work out these issues...."
They probably won't.
I own a KTM 690 Enduro R. Great bike, fairly light and powerful and great for extended dirt roads. However I don't think I would buy another KTM. My bike has only given me a couple of issues (fuel pump failure being one), and overall it's easy to work with.
What gets me though is they've had fuel pump issues since they released the model in 2009. Mine was a 2017 model and they should have fixed the issue by then. I also found the wiring loom to be badly terminated/poorly protected, and there are other known weak spots for which you are basically expected to buy expensive aftermarket parts to resolve, when they would cost a couple of dollars if they fixed them at the time of manufacturing (such as stronger subframe bolts, fragile fuel filler cap that lets dust in...). All they seem to do each year is change the stickers, whereas it should be evolving into a bulletproof adventure/enduro platform right out of the box.
As you correctly said, they prioritize performance and weight over reliability.
Well, I mean the more they play on your heart strings with amazing riding capability, great sound, agressive design and all that gets ur emotions rise, better the chances that u'd buy another one few yrs down the line if not earlier.
That is, unless u know what u value.
Meanwhile if a manufacturer designs a bulletproof machine with the same performance u wouldn't have any reason to put any money into it, much less buying another one.
Just pure consumerism 🍊🍋
Same can be said about Yamaha but in a different way.
The way Yamaha makes money is out from modifications, licensing and pure brand awareness. They're undoubtly the most marketable Motorcycle brand around so they don't need to do much but just to release a good product that's as moddable as it's commercially viable once every 2-3 yrs and the product basically sells itself.
Their machines are tuned to be reliable and fun but certainly not to be the best cuz that's where U, the consumer, comes in. ; )
Yamaha concept of Motorcycling is basically one of the few rn that could survive the apocalypse and that's because its adaptable, customizable and elastic, thus it feels more human and alive, KTM can't do that yet since they're not as recognizable nor big compared to the Japanese giants so they took more of a consumerism route. It works now but few yrs down the line some changes will be made Looking at how the world is now. Meanwhile they will still be making SUPERB machines with doubtable reliability cuz that's what's sells.
To be fair they've addressed a lot of stuff too rocker arms, fuel cap, clutch slave cylinder e.t.c. - 2021 is much more reliable and overall better machine then 2009. Plus I suspect 690/701 is a very niche bike that that does not sells in big numbers, changing things it much more expensive then couple of bucks.
@@alexanderzhulin3528 That's a good point - I forgot about the rocker arms. I thin They were fixed by the time got mine but I still have spares in case. What is annoying is that each time they bring out a new model they have a tendency to quietly "fix" these issues without saying so -- I mean you never get a comprehensive list of improvements or changes that shows some level of transparency and would give you more confidence in the brand.
@@alexanderzhulin3528 How can subframe bolrs and clutch slave cylinder O ring issue etc? How the heck NOT NOT be a couple buck issues??....seriously? I mean supposedly they FINALLY did something with the slave cylinder but not the first time I heard that either It bothers me how care less the company seems to be about important things....like charging money to make the 690 safe in the dirt...you have to PAY for a "dong;e" to insure you have back brake.....THAT is like criminal if you ask me
KTM transfered the cost of development and quality control to future customers....
Anyone in rush for sponsoring them?
Really good review! Densely packed info all the way through. In fact this is the most info in the fewest minutes I can remember seeing. Thank you for valuing our time!
Thanks for being honest. I will probably never buy KTM, the quality / reliability is just unacceptable. Rather just rent one and let the the owner deal with the problems :D
Yeah I bought a 2019 790 adventure and while I do love riding the bike everything else is just bullshit. I gotta figure out what I want n I'm trading mine in. I'm thinking the new tiger 900, Vstrom 1050, or maybe even that new harley pan america. Something. But one thing is for sure I'm am sick and tired of the shop having my kTm more than me. Sucks cause like I said I really do love riding the bike.
@@bdraidian6280 Brett Tecks just did a video on the Tiger 900 and had nothing bad to say. That is the one I would have an eye on of the ones you listed. Vstrom will be dead reliaible tho. Harely is tempting, but I will let others find out the kinks so Harley can fix them for the 2nd year model. People are already reporting problems starting the engine.
@@SamiNami cool. Awesome. Yeah the tiger was my top pick. I love the looks of the Vstrom. Thanks for the reply.
@@SamiNami Did you notice the trailer with his name on it? Of course he has nothing bad to say.
@@montaego it seems like his name is edited in there as a joke
Best, objective comparison I have seen of these two bikes!!! Thanks
I support your thoughts exactly. although I dont own either bikes I consider them as an alternative to my bmw 800gs. I consider reliability the most important thing when buying a motorcycle. KTM need to get some quality control in their factories or employ some more competent engineers. Some of the faults they have in their bikes that I read continuously about are just poor design and inferior quality. That should not happen on an expensive motorbike. I wont buy one until I read their quality is vastly improved
Fully agree, I won't be buying anything KTM until they up their game on quality.
How's your gs?
Agreed with some regret as I love the KTM's look and design.
But some of the horror stories I've read? Well no thanks. I'm happy and content with my 2018 Africa Twin
@@tutes0133 I sold my AT and got the T7 and can’t be happier
Quality control and KTM do not go hand-in-hand, even less so now that most of their stuff is being made in China! Reliability - that is why I own an F800GSA!!
BEST Comparison of these 2 bikes I ever saw! Congratulation!
Great breakdown. Accurate. The bonus with a KTM is you have a bike that is "basically" off-road-ready for a rider over 165 lbs. with enough adjustability/suspension to do off-road. The downside is you're dealing with KTM bugs. A T700 would take 3-5K in suspension and farkles to make it competitive and then you're still missing some basics like Cruise Control. It's not an easy decision.
Yep… I’m thinking about to get one of the two and I can’t decide…. Every year I do a “big” travel in adventures bikes (1 month without stop), and I can’t decide what is the best… the scary of the reliability of the Ktm or the crappy fuel range of the T7…
@@gomesracer I look at KTM's like VOLVO's...they never run right, but they usually are at least running. I met Bret Tkacs in Nashville and we all know his opinion on KTM. I test road a Tiger 900 Rally Pro...if I were in this market and price range it would be on my short list. He just did a video on one. Again...the downside is aftermarket support, reliability, depreciation, etc...but it was an AMAZING bike.
p.s. I had to remind my friend with one who was complaining to our BMW friend about the reliability that KTM is Austrian...not GERMAN! :) (Me on my Honda...just sat back and chuckled)
Dan, nowhere near that much money. Send the boingers to Noleen for tuning. They charge about $700 and you get perfection.
@@Propelled ..."and farkles"
I have been riding a 790 for 4 years and agree with you on the KTM reliability, performance and issues. It is currently getting new cams and a head paid for by KTM. Thank goodness. My Triumph 800 XC and DR are just as much fun to ride with much less issues and drama. There is something to say about reliability and peace of mind while out on a multiple day trip. I also agree with you on tubeless tires vs tube tires. Thanks for everything.
Such a informative and common sense review of these bikes. It's huge you have ownership experience with both. You always answer the questions that I have. Well done again!
Much appreciated!
Own a 2019 KTM 790R. So far no issues with it after 7000 miles. But I have talked with a few other 790 owners who have experienced failures of one sort or the other. The old yarn on buying any sort of motorized vehicle was to find out whether it was assembled in the factory on a Friday if you could. The 790 I own has been recalled twice. Once for the rear brake and once for the front brakes. KTM used their own design instead of Brembo probably to save money which probably seemed like a good idea at the time. After both recalls I'll bet their management regret that decision. Visual appeal definitely goes to the T700. The KTM 790/890 is a quirky looking motorcycle.
I own a 790 S since Aug 2020 ...I find your analysis very accurate. Fantastic Bike , but I had problems with front brake though. Both discs were replaced under warranty . I had many Hondas before...I was not prepared for this kind of issues. As you said, we all Hope KTM will work more on reliability.
Exactly the very same experience I had !!!
Coming from a Honda I think I'll join team blue. Can't be arsed dealing with such issues. Rather go slower and get there than strand going faster.
I had a 2011 1190 Adventure and loved riding it. But it suffered from a lot of little problems, the worst of which, an oil leak, that took a year for the dealer to solve. I eventually sold it for that reason. Then I owned a 2016 Husky 501 FE, and it had similar issues. It's sad to hear that KTM hasn't solved their QC issues, because their bikes are really fun to ride. You make a good point about weight vs reliability.
100% agree. That is why I moved from KTM after 20+ years. Just constant issues, big and small. Fun to ride and I do love KTM but enough is enough. My 350 XCF even snapped it's swing arm!
Yep Friends bike snapped it's 1190R frame also. He does ride it hard off road to be fair but I would expect a "hardcore" off road brand like KTM to take a good G out with falling apart. KTM have had a heap of issues with the porous engine cases. Might explain your oil leak? Of was it something else the dealer found?
We saw your recent ride over the rocky surfaces on the Yamaha. I was worn out just watching ha. A lot to be said for the better KTM suspension. The KTM saddle tanks are brilliant - they mimic a Boxer motor. Great thorough review, to save $3k or not, that is the question ha.
I agree but the KTM suspension still needs work. If you have to modify both then what does it matter. The Yamaha is still less to start with. Never owned a ADV bike that hasn't needed suspension work for proper off road work.
@@twowheelpilot The options for T7 suspension now IMO makes it handle much better than the KTM when you spend the difference on upgrades, all with zero of the reliabilty issues or breakdown of fancy electronics which have done very miserably here in Australia.
The elephant in the closet is still the 30hp difference.
Very good points regarding compression ratio, and the various consequences. It's no secret that many Japanese motorcycles are very reliable. Another good video... thank you.
Well said!
Only thing I will say going to compression ratios. The KTM 790/890 fuel management system can handle low octane fuel. The knock sensor which will detect pre-detonation and correct with ignition timing. But great review! Very in-depth
Invaluable review. The takeaway is reliability and peace of mind on a bdr or that worry in the back of your head that your super performing, lightweight bike might cause you some fits... and possibly far away from services. As a senior rider you've helped me make my personal decision. Love your Channel, SUPER INFORMATIVE. keep up the great work. Thanks..
Good objective info. Don't own any of the two in discussion, but appreciate the neutral opinion. Well done. South Africa. 👍
Another great review Ian. I sold my KTM 790 adventure R, and I’m now shopping around for T7, simply because of the reliability factor. I only wish it had tubeless tires and a more comfortable seat.
I've had plans to buy a new bike for the next riding season. I've had my eye on the T7 but they are impossible to find.
Now I've been vacillating back and forth between the T7 and 890. I literally can't make up my mind. I've decided that which ever one makes it self available by spring, I'll buy.
Check AJP Pr7
Where i live, the tenere 700 world raid cost me £9995 brand new, and a KTM 890 R was £8995, brand new. I opted for the Tenere for the reasons mentioned in the video - reliability. I sleep much better at night for this. Am very happy with it, looking forward to many dependable miles. I have come from an R1200GSA, and a Tracer 9gt. Althought the 9gt had all the bells and whistles, i dont miss any of the electronics.
Great comparison - very fair and unbiased. Kudos! I think the KTM's sound may have something to do with the firing order (meant to mimic the 75 degree KTM twins), but the Tenere sounds like a badass bike should. My 790R has been trouble free luckily, but if you had those issues I can see it spoiling the experience. It is nice to see more and more options out there. Cheers
How long have you had the KTM, what mileage ? I like to keep my vehicles a long time so opt for lower stress over performance....
@@davidnobular9220 I bought mine in May of 2019 and have about 22k miles on it with about 1/3 being dirt miles. It has remained trouble free. Cheers
I own a KTM 790R. He has totally nailed the bike, the pros/cons, the ownership experience. KTM banks on people to expect less of a good dealership and ownership experience in lieu of best of breed performance. They dont have to, but they do. Dealers suck. Luckily my bike has been hugely reliable after 5000k miles. Zero issues with a good portion off road. Great review. I would buy either bike and for the exact reasons he listed on both sides.
Really really loved this review. You hit the nail on the head many times and stayed unbiased and explained a lot of different perspectives and made some points that I’m sure others (including myself) weren’t considering. I desperately hope that you can do a 790/890 vs Tiger 900 Rally Pro review as well once you’ve had enough time on the Tiger. I strongly believe with how much better technology has gotten in the last decade that we should be able to have a bike with tech like the KTM and reliability similar to the Yamaha, and I’m hoping the Tiger 900 is the answer. It’s on my short list of bikes I’m considering for next season, along with the Norden 901 and Aprilia Tuareg 660.
The Tiger is pretty good. Review coming monday
@@BigRockMoto Awesome. Can’t wait to watch it.
What an amazingly thorough and honest review. I don't think I've ever seen better...
I still carry a tube for my tubeless tires as a last resort. 21 fits fron and rear in a pinch and will seat the bead enough to ride
Excellent comparison! I would have to say it's the best thorough comparison of any review on ever seen.
Keep up the good work.
thanks
Well said I have a KTM 300 XC great bike....... never left me on the trail but it’s had its problems. For an ADV bike I’ll stick with the Japanese. May not be
“Ready to Race” but always ready to ride!
and always bring you home.
instant subscribe, on par with 44teeth channel, great straight forward expert analysis and 0 nonsensical hype
thanks
i have ride the 790s a lot, i own one, and i have ride a friends t7.. and... i love the t7... not more than i love my 790 since i made my 790 pretty mine with mods and everything... but he t7 is lacking in certain areas where my 790s is not... even the suspension on the t7 would bottom out after dialing it for the weight of the rider while the 790s will not bottom out... obviously you can push the 790s suspension even futher and make it bottom out but is by abusing it rather than logically using it... even after revalve and re-sprung both of the bikes the 790s Apex 43's are a big leap ahead, like it moves even further apart of what the t7 has to offer... probably that's the reason why so many people are installing 3000 dollars worth on suspension on every t7 i see out there... at least here in Europe...
for 10.000 dollars the T7 is a steal, you can do the same, and reach the same spots as you will with a 790s or 790r, the different lays in how well you feel in both bikes... for me there is pretty difficult to compare by words both bikes since they are so much different... because the 790 is completly different than any bike out there... on the T7 i feel like in another adventure bike... in the 790 i feel like in a naked bike with 21-18's...
You have done a great, respectful video of this two bikes... i have 20k's on my 790S right now, trouble free... only a couple of adjustment issues when new before the first service, but after that has been a solid bike... for me, amazing.
the 890 has fixed A LOT, a lot, of the 790 issues... on the groups i'm at the failure rate is not even close, not even 10% the first year of failures of the 890 vs what the 790 was from my experience here at Europe groups...
The clutch, the brakes and the exhaust are the same on the 790 as on the 890. People have had lots of problems with these parts. So it looks like they did not fix the bike. Just put a shiny new engine and kept the low quality components.
@@SamiNami No they are not
Brake disks are new, they changed the reference on early 2020 for 790's and the 890's come with the new reference, i know because they replaced mine without failure.
Cluth is not the same not even close, the baskets and the disk are different.
Exhaust... what problem could a exhaust give? condensation? if you consider that a problem probably a electric bike could be better suit.
Thank you for your time and all precious information on this video. I really appreciated !
I wish when people talked about the pricing they would talk about the “dealer fees” too so we can get a better idea of whether or not we’re getting a good deal. The dealer fees add significantly to the price of a bike.
And the sales tax... 11% in LA
Nice review! I have only had 1 KTM a 1290 SuperAdventure the first generation. I took it on many trips some months long. I had no issues but I understand many do. I sill loved that bike and the only bike I like more than the 890-R is the Norden 901.
Thanks for sharing!
$10k for a new T7 is a steal.
Yamaha make a Rally version with a bigger tank for $500 more.
Then make an SP version with Ohlins adjustable front and rear suspension, sell it for $12k.
A range of 3 T7's.
No need to add TC, nor power modes, nor a TFT.
One of the reasons this bike is a WORLDWIDE best seller is because "keep it simple, stoopid"... oh and it is actually a true dual sport....
I agree with most of your points, but no bike at 200kg with the weight up high can be called a true dual sport 😉
Depends on the rider! 💪Some People with 300 pound motorcyles have problems
Great video as always. Your indepth analysis is always appreciated
Another great review! Thank you.
I’ll stick with my 2021 Yamaha T7. The only thing is I wish it wasent so top heavy. I also had to install lowering links and I moved the front fork tubes up 1 1/2”-2” up so the front would match the rear. I am 5’8” tall so that’s a must for me.
Great review! You do a very detailed reviews. I think both bikes are fantastic! I know there are reliability issues with the KTM but they are so much better in the performance end of things that it was worth it to me. I own a 790r and have had a few issues but have been pretty lucky so far. I did consider the Yamaha right up tell I found out it has no sub frame. I can do a lot of repair on the KTM and never get close to what it would cost if you had a hard fall on the Yamaha and had to replace the entire frame. The bike would just get totaled by the insurance company. There are people on UA-cam that have had that happen to them. So i will just fix anything that comes up on the KTM for now. Hopefully Yamaha will start using sub frames. If they do I would definitely take a hard look at one.
So my first bike is a 2021 Ktm890S, which I've turned mostly into an R model. Since day one I received mine with 9k miles for 10.2k but had now over 3 times where some the problems above you mentioned and this last one which almost cost me my life throttle sticking in 3rd gear... The live-wire throttle bodie failed... and ktm mechanics stumbled even at ktm. Replaced a wire and housing electronics covered all under warranty until Sept 2023. Just went to the dealer to swap for a more reliable tenere700 t7. Less electronics, less risk. Thank you for your reviews!
I nearly bought a T7. They're non existent so I didnt. 6 months later they still dont exist...None.........But I bought an 890R and holy moly its the funnest bike Ive ever owned.
I ended up really liking the electrical package,and the HP,and the torque,and the great handling,even the stock seat works,I dont want it to be a trailbike so the weight of either doesnt matter that much..Is 450 or 470lbs middleweight? Middle of what? 1000 lbs almost? Too big both of them to be any sort of trail or dirtbike. Any dirt road is fine but I'll take a 2 stroke for trail riding anyday....which saves me the trouble of trying to turn my 890R into something it will never be,a great off roadbike.
Awesome review, it solved many of my doubts. Keep it up!