I’ve got to say GP, that’s the best (and only) description of what all that means I’ve ever heard! Thank you for going to all of the trouble to dig out the meaning of those specifications. I know it was a lot of work and you did a great job of it. I’m in the process of picking out my first new tractor and it gets overwhelming watching and reading everything. You just made it more simple to understand. Thanks!
Hey thanks Jim! So make sure before you buy, that they show you that spec sheet and graph in the manual. That will help a lot. At the end of the day, you need to know what you can lift safely off the ground. Be well and all the best!
GP, I love your videos, please keep it up! If you look at the triangle created by the lift cylinders and the boom of the loader when the bucket is on the ground, you’ll notice that it’s a much “fatter” triangle then when the boom is fully raised. In the fully raised position the triangle is very “skinny”. The “fat” triangle is what gives the lift cylinders their power. The skinny triangle seriously takes away from that power. In fact if you imagine the boom raising beyond the full lift height of 6.5 feet, it’s easy to see that in theory, the lift cylinders would be pushing directly through the hinge point of the boom in which case they would have no lifting capacity whatsoever. As far as breakout force goes, I believe that has to do with the geometry of the curl function. The curling of the bucket while on the ground can provide tremendous lift capacity because of the geometry and linkage of the bucket cylinders. Hope this makes sense!
Good morning Bert! It actually does make sense to me - thanks! I have never had it explained that way before but it was super helpful. Thanks again! Have a great weekend and all the best!
Dude you made my mind up between an L2501 and a B2650..... I am going B2650, i do not need the extra lift or weight to do my intended tasks. Thank you, your channel has been invaluable in guiding toward practical knowledge. Cheers dude!
Good day. I am really happy it helped. Good luck with the new tractor purchase. Very exciting time! Cheers - maybe let me know how it turns out from time to time.
Break out force is what the curl cylinders can exert on the front edge of the bucket ...in this case leverage to scoop out a bucket of dirt or roll back that massive log. Now looking at the B26TLB specs and it gives a solid description of the forces exerted at certain points.....so wording without giving the specific point means nothing (manufactures game of misleading numbers) and clearly roll back vs breakout force can be interchanged but I view both as what the curl cylinders can do for work at specific points out from the pivot pins at ground level (which is the max breakout point) For the B26 at 1.5m out in front of the pivot pins it is 3969lbs. So for buyers get a hold of the owners manual and carefully compare numbers at the same points of distance Also GP when you curled that log back then tried to do a lift up and nothing happened then you went straight for more throttle and still nothing happened ......brings me to Messicks newest TMT video explaining what just happened or in this case nothing happened nor changed.....anyways great example of the Messicks Vid
Hey bkrgi. Thanks for the comment. Respectfully, not sure I can agree with that. Here is the direct excerpt from the ASAE standards (no mention of curl cylinders): "Section 5.1.5 Breakout force-at pivot pin (Y): Vertical lifting force, in newtons (pounds), the loader will exert at the bucket pivot pin centerline using the lift cylinders only, with the bucket horizontal at ground line." I am not that familiar with a lot of things yet, as you know, but I think this seems pretty clear. Let me know your thoughts - I always welcome your comments. Cheers and thanks for contributing!
Well I can't argue with the Definition but can argue with the wording. Their "breakout force" literally means lift capacity at the pins with bucket on the ground....so your right in how you presented it....it is to do with lift nothing with curl. For me breakout force is the greatest force you can use on the loader which is the curl on the front end of the bucket of which they call it "roll back force". I think the wording and how they themselves define it is what tosses people off ..like me hahaha because I think breakout force on a backhoe and it's to do with the bucket so I think breakout force/what the bucket on the loader can do which is based on the curl function. Anyways great discussion and this would really help newbs who truly want to crunch numbers an make comparisons. Honestly for any buyer I would figure out how much you want to lift then find a tractor that can exceed that amount easily otherwise compromising is in order. When I went looking to buy between the B's, I settled on the very much higher priced TLB cause i did not want something that I could easily twist up....heavier built is better in my world.
Thanks for sending the additional info bkrgi. You make some good points. What I was trying to do was help the new folks like myself, cause when we see that spec, we assume it means it is the lift capacity at ground and it is honestly pretty confusing to new folks who don't have the experience like yourself. But your explanation above helps a lot. Thanks for taking the time to write it out for us. Be well and have a great weekend!!
I would say I tought breakout force like you. So to say, you put the bucket on the ground, FEL in float mode and you measure the "lift" capacity of the bucket only by curling. Apparently, I had it wrong. The rollback seems to define this. Maybe the terms definitions has changed over time after some standardization.
Thanks GP some really good information, I just ordered a B2601 this week, your videos where a huge factor in my decision, thanks so much for all the great videos, you do a fantastic job, keep them coming, have a good one!!
Thank you for researching that. Just got a new tractor and was wondering that exact question. One small issue with your physics, the amount of force which is required to lift the weight is any Force above the weight. Even if it's slightly above the weight it will just lift extremely slowly. I imagine if you were trying to lift something extremely close to the weight rating of your tractor you would hear the pressure release constantly kicking in while you were lifting because of the force required to lift the object at an acceptable speed. the amount of force required to hold the object in the air is equal to the weight of the object. the amount of force required to hold the object up in the air varies as you drive the tractor over rough Terrain. As it bounces your tractor is possibly holding up more than it is rated to lift at times. if you were to pick up an extremely heavy objects and drive over rough terrain you could possibly damage something. I am guessing that I'm telling you nothing that you did not already know. Just a couple things were unclear so I wanted to make sure. Thanks again for doing all that research and actually going to the documentation to find the answers. I appreciate your Channel.
Hey good morning Micayle. I wish I spoke to you first - LOL! You did a great job of explaining it far better than I did. :)) Very much appreciated. Actually I didn't know all of that above but now that you explained it so well, it made a few things I had in my mind come together and make sense. Thanks for taking the time to write it out so clearly. All the best and good luck with the new tractor!! Cheers!
I think that’s a pretty darn good explanation GP! Math is hard but I think when it’s based around something like this, it’s a little more enjoyable for me. Sounds like everyone north and west of me have already gotten snow and I’m just crossing my fingers we’re not next. Hope you’re prepped for winter! I can’t imagine working outside anymore, mostly just waiting for deer season, and ski season after that. Too cold for fun now. Stay warm up there! Cheers!
Hey Jackson! Great to hear from you. Its coming no doubt! But I still have a lot of prep to do before it gets here so I need to get in gear and get ready - it won't be long! Hope we have a great snowmobile season this year. Be well!!
Good luck Travis! So many models now that are out there to choose from. Best of luck in working through all the comparisons and details, pricing etc. Cheers!
Another consideration when lifting heavy weight is the effect on the front wheels. I once had the seal of one of the front tires pop when I made a sharp turn (at low speed) while moving a large log chained to the front end loader. I had to shut down while I dropped the load, removed the wheel and took it to town to be repaired.
Thanks Mr. Fixit! And a big thanks for pushing me to dig deeper to make sure I was not exceeding the ratings for the tractor. Much appreciated. All the best to you and your family!
I have a B2601HSD on order. The salesman told me because I lift 600# logs I need to get the L2501. I just ignored him and I feel more confident in my decision after watching your videos. 1500# 2’ off the ground is more than ample for my needs. Thanks and keep the videos coming 👍🏻
Good morning H! Congrats on the new tractor! You must be pretty excited. I am happy the videos have helped you a bit but please remember , I am still a newbie. I have learned so far that the front axle is rated for 1300 lbs, so I basically now try to lift well under that weight but otherwise if a log is heavier , I simply cut it first and take two pieces. I have also learned not to try to carry 15 foot lengths anymore. It's pretty hard to get them through the forest so I generally cut my lengths to about 8 feet maximum - much easier to manage. I keep lots of weight on the back for ballast and so far, my little 2601 has been great. I am really happy with it for the size and weights of the things I need to do with it. Good luck and let me know how it is going from time to time!
I think the breakout force is what the RV is set to in the loader valve. The pump might only put out 2000 psi but the RV is set to 4000lbs which means that if you push on something you can double the load before the RV cracks and relieves the pressure. So you might only be able to lift 1000lbs but you could put 2000lbs of force on it before the RV kicks in and causes the bucket to drop. This saves the cylinders and structure from damage. There are usually 2 RV's, one in the pump and one in the loader valve. The one in the loader valve is usually set higher.
That was an awesome run done on the lifting capacity GP. You explained things really good, I watch Neal from Messicks. He too, does an excellent job. Thanks buddy have a good evening.
Good morning Barr B! Glad it helped a little. Best I could figure it out so far, so hopefully it is directionally correct based on what I could research. Thanks for watching and all the best to you!
The lift capacity 500mm in front of the pin is what you should be able to lift and be well within the FEL design limits, not the value at the pin. If the centre of gravity of the load is closer to the pin then you can lift more as you get closer to the pin.
I think you are spot-on, GP. Many operators will enjoy your explanation and other experienced operators will share helpful information, as well. Have a fine upcoming weekend.
GP, I certainly agree with your observation that lifting a load at a distance from you is much more difficult that lifting it close in. A key indicator in my view is that the manual shows different units for lift than Break out Force (BoF). The BOF units are for torque, i.e. foot-pounds. A good analogy might be lifting barbells just using your wrist (i.e. curl cylinder). Imagine straight-arm curling a 20 lb barbell only with your wrist, but then extending that barbell from your hand 12" somehow, then trying to curl it again....way harder. The further away the barbell, the harder it is to lift. (twice as far out, means you need twice the torque). This capacity (BoF) is different than what barbell you can lift vertically using only your biceps (lift cylinders).
Good evening Ron. That's an excellent observation and makes good sense. The manual also shows different values for roll back or curl force. This has been an intriguing subject for me Ron. Lots of different or varying views on the definition of BoF. But I think I am getting closer to fully understanding the correct interpretation of it. Thanks again good sir. An excellent example using the barbells. Cheers!
Tried to lift to much once with one of my kubotas. It lifted the back wheels off the ground. Had 600 lb. Rototiller on the back. Best to go easy when lifting the heavy stuff.
@@roflstomps324 yeah there strong little beast seen some city guys useing a b2601 doing sidewalks in the winter wich pretty slick multipurpose and cheaper then spending $140,000 on a holder wich redicluas for a little holder c992
Gp It's your front bucket curl cylindres and I had lots Backhoe and experience with the Breaking force . I'm not crityzing you , love your videos GP I dont wont you to break anything on little tractor b2601 , mY KUBOTA IS 1999 , 24 HDS , LOVE IT ALLMOST 28 years now but it sleep Inside .no heat .have great day .keep the videos comming, God Bless .
Thanks Leo!! Always appreciate hearing from you. And I respect your opinion a lot. You have a lot more experience than me. The important point for me out of all of this is that I know I am not hurting my tractor lifting that 1500 lbs a foot and a half off the ground. And I sort of get the break out force thing (not totally but a bit more than I did). Thanks my friend. And thanks for sticking with me for so long on this channel. Cheers and all the best !
I have a Mahindra 5010 which has a max lift of around 3100 lbs and a breakout of 5225lbs . I never carry a heavy load with it any higher than is necessary to clear the ground. Love my tractor and don’t want to break it.
Great explanation on lifting capacities, what about the capacity of tires, it seems at max loads those front tires are really straining especially on uneven ground? Keep the videos coming, I really enjoy watching and learning!
Good morning hermit! That is a really good question. I noticed that too when I was lifting that Ash timber. That was the first time i saw that the front tires were compressing. I will look into that. Thanks for the kind words and for watching. Cheers!
You should re-do this video because it is miss-leading. The Roll-Back force is similar to using a claw hammer to extract a nail from a piece of wood. It is only using the curl cylinders to curl or roll-back the bucket, pivoting it about the roll pin where the bucket is attached so that the front of the bucket is raising while the back of the bucket is resting on the ground. It is leveraging against the ground for maximum force. The BreakOut force is a combination of the curl cylinder and the lift cylinder to perform the combined function of curling the bucket so that the front edge is raising and the lift arms are lifting the bucket vertically. The BreakOut force is greater than the lifting capacity because it has two cylinders working in tandem to produce the force. But this is only measured at the ground because you can actually rest the bucket on the ground and leverage the bucket against the ground using the curl cylinders for a brief moment while it is also trying to use the lift cylinders to start the lifting process. After the bucket is off of the ground, then all of the force is being derived from the lift cylinders for the rest of the lift stroke, and as the lift cylinder is extended, it actually gets de-rated because of the internal surface area of the exterior cylinder housing that is now taking more and more surface pressure, which can cause a rupture of the cylinder wall as more cylinder wall is exposed to the hydraulic pressure. Maximum cylinder hydraulic pressure and max load is always with the least amount of cylinder wall surface exposed.
Nice job in explaining the technical aspect of the loader. Being in the woods like you I just give her a try and see what she will lift. If it doesn't lift then it gets dragged or cut down to lift size. Good content on the video!!
Paul. Me too. Still not well experienced at being to estimate the weight of things. I do the same thing. If it lifts, I am good. If not, then I haul out the chain. LOL. Thanks!! Be well! Thanks for watching and for the comment!
According to the chart in your manual, I am glad to see that my understanding was wrong, that break out force included the curl function. It likely does, but the graph clearly shows what JUST the lift cylinders can do. But I'll have to argue a bit that it's not the extension of the cylinders that causes the reduction in lift....look again at your cylinders at ground level versus fully lifted. There is a massive difference in the geometry, down low the lift cylinders have far more....uhm, kinda hard to explain, lol. But I THINK the extra lift down low is simple geometry. Combined with some curl power.
You are probably right 10essee! I think I sort of got it ok, but I still have questions about that whole curl thing but I think I feel a little more confident about what it means. At least know pretty much for sure that the Break Out is not the same as the lift capacity. Thanks my friend. Keep smiling !
Good morning Joe, No I believe it is in addition. I asked the dealer and also in the manual it identifies that the loader and bucket together are 610 lbs and the specs are in addition to that as I understand it. Hope that helps. GP.
Very good explanation of the front loaders operation. The designed capacity is very high and just what you would want but, that is just the loader. The capacity of the tractor running gear must also (or not) be considered when lifting heavy loads. Tires, axels, bearing, ect. must all in their turn carry the loads once lifted. All that said, the B-2601 Kubota only has a front axel capacity of just over 1300 lb.s according to the spec. sheet and if you add the bounce factor which is what I think broke the front end of my tractor years ago, weight on the loader can and do become extreme! I am looking for some pictures I took when it happened to me if I find them I well send you copies.
Hey good morning Rick. Yes you bet. I still need to do more digging as you make a good point. If my front end can only handle 1300 lbs, then I need to be conscious of that. Which makes me wonder what other components I need to also be careful of. I'd also like to ask the dealer why the tractor can lift more weight than it can handle on the front axle. Still lots to do. And yes, if you have the pics, I would like to see them. Cheers and thanks again Rick!
Because the loader attaches to the center of the tractor. The load on the bucket is transferred through the loader to the frame. The frame is supported by both axles not just the front! So u were just fine lifting that big ash. Obviously u dont want to bounce around as that increases the forces.
And if you ballast the back of the tractor, even less of the weight is on the front axle. For argument's sake, if you put 1000 lbs on the back of the tractor, that's now pivoting on the rear axle, and lifting the front of the tractor somewhat. When you put load on the FEL, it first balances out that rear load, then puts load on the front axle. Because you've got two pivot points (front axle and rear axle) the overall load is kinda hard to work out - but basically the more you put on the back, the more weight you lift off the front axles. The right amount of ballast is probably as much as you can take so that you can still steer when the FEL is empty - that shifts as much weight to the back axle as possible.
G P math is not my cup of tea wish they had a charts that tell how much you can lift at x amount of feet we have a BX so I will look in the loder manual God Bless PaK
I have a question. 1st very good video. Very informative. Take a 3301 by Kubota. The lift capacity is about 1100 lbs at pivot pin. Tractor and loader probably 22-23 Thousand. The RK 37 demonstrated on outdoor with the Morgans will lift about 22 hundred lbs. Price 20 grand. (Lift at pivot pin as well). So should you lean towards a Rural King as opposed to the Kubota. It seems that Kubota and John Deere have clean lines , good craftsmanship but Tractors like Mahindra, RK, LS, TYM...Smoke them on performance. I would appreciate some feedback . I hear over and over again you're paying for the Green or Orange paint. What do you think? Thanks. Mark.
Good morning Mark. Well, I have to say I am no expert for sure on this but for what it's worth, and in general, here are my thoughts. I think for sure you pay a little more for the paint. But that's because the paint has a long history of engineering, presence and historical long time proven reliability behind it. Not to say that others don't have good engineering, but the market is now becoming much more competitive than it used to be, especially in the compact and utility segments. Take any industry you can think of and usually as new competition enters, the old more established brands take a while to realize or react to the fact that their market share is being depleted. Most if not all those brands above have good long warranties so that would give me comfort. Re: performance. I think the new competitors are doing what they need to do to gain market share. They are providing more value for less money. Of course, without a long timeline of historical performance ( relative to green or orange), they know that is a big consideration for someone spending $20k. and therefore a big hurdle to get the consumer over. Why I bought orange. Of the 4 dealers I visited, the Dealer was awesome, and still is to this day. Selling tractors for 40+ years, so they had long presence, proven long time reliability and experience and that was worth a little more to me since I am a long way from any dealer. But I'll sum up with this - the RKs look like a good tractor with good value for the money. And they have an 8 year warranty on them ( longer than Kubota). And they are trying to break into an established competitive market so they should be providing greater value than the established companies. So if you find the dealer is good and you have confidence in him/her, and after reviewing the full specs ( not just lift capacity) of the various tractors you compare, it looks like a good match for you, I would consider it. The company that makes RK has been around for a very long time. So some research/ googling on them would be helpful too to help provide confidence. Sorry that was a long answer and not sure I helped you much but hope there was something in there that helped. LOL. Good luck and let me know how it turns out if you decide to buy one. Cheers Mark!
@@GPOutdoors Thanks. Very helpful. I guess a point I was making, why would you buy a Kubota 33 hp when you can buy the RK with 37 HP , lifts DOUBLE on the Loader and 2 to 4 Thousand less money? But you are right. One way to put a footprint in this market is to come up with a Tractor with these specs and unbeatable price. Hard to turn down. I have owned the LS 33 hp for 2 years, put 230 hours on it, with zero problems. My lifting capacity on the loader is 1600 lbs. The 3 pt 1800 but I'm looking to upgrade to something a little stronger. I have 2 builders I work for. They flip old houses. Their yards are way overgrown with bushes, ground covers , vines as big as your fist, wild growing small trees and junk. I usually load dumpsters or sometimes bury it. I also dig new driveways . You can go to www.tuckertractorworks.com. and see some photos. I did Construction and remodeling, decks, bathrooms, floors, kitchens, room additions you name it for 30 years but my Arthritis won't let me do it anymore so I bought a Tractor and started doing clean up. I really enjoy it. It is very gratifying and enjoyable. I just like the outdoors, the wildlife, Gods creation and the smell of diesel fuel. Sounds nuts but that's what some of us men do. Thank you for taking the time to answer. God Bless. Mark.
You're welcome Mark. Hope it helped a little. It sounds like you are doing something you enjoy a lot. There is something about being outside working. That is awesome. Enjoy it and be safe! Cheers!
Hi Great videos Something that I recently was reminded of is the weight of the quick release frame on my Kubota loader reduces the lifting capacity of my loader, I have a B3150 with a LA 534 loader and it is disappointing what it fails to lift when compared to my old B2710 that was stolen. I also find the loader operates faster than I would like when working close up. Michael
Good morning Michael. Thanks for sharing - I am not sure if I knew that. Because I am still learning, I now learned to run at low RPMs so the loader operates much slower so I am able to use it easier. The tractor does not need to be at high RPMs unless you need every ounce of capacity to lift something. Under normal use, I run at about 1800 - 2000 RPM on the B and it lifts and operates well and the loader operates nice and slow. Thanks again for sharing your experience and all the best!
Good day Shane. It is manufactured by HLA Attachments ( they have a website by the same name) here in Ontario Canada but they do not sell retail so you would need to go through a dealer. I purchased it from my Kubota dealer and I know Farmer Equipment Sales (website same name) also sells them. Hope that helps. Cheers!
Good overall. Your physics was wrong at the beginning... u were thinking of sliding aka static friction vs rolling aka dynamic friction. That is for sliding things not lifting them. If u have to lift 100lbs vertically then u need 100lbs. 2nd the lift capacity changes as the height increases because the lift cylinder angle changes. Angles and leverage r key. That is why one tractor might have really high break out force but lower lift capacity vs the competition. So if u load trucks u want to focus on the max load at max height. If u dig all the time u want to focus on the breakout force.
Hey thanks Andy. Still a little foggy on it but I think I kind of have the idea. I get what you are saying about the life and height. That makes sense to me for sure. Thanks for giving me a little more info on it. Have a good one and talk again soon. Cheers!
A great many of these tractors are used simply as loaders, and while you are essentially correct , when used as a loader the more break out force you have translates to how well you can load your bucket. example if you can drive into say a pile of soil and pick straight up rather than having to back out somewhat before you can lift your bucket allows you to get a larger load in the Bucket therefore decreasing operator time and in the case of the customer giving them the full scoop they may have paid for. It is also my understanding that currently a comparable John Deere tractor has about 35% more break out force. but either way you look at it each companies tractor has both its pros and cons great video
respectfully, i cannot agree with your explanation of "lift capacity" versus "break-out force capacity." the "lift" capacity of a loader is the total amount of weight you can put in the bucket and then lift the bucket off the ground to the total height of the loader - say 900 lbs. of dirt or gravel or cement blocks, etc. loaded in the bucket. the "break-out" force is like prying a sidewalk slab off the ground by putting a crow-bar under the slab and then putting a brick under the crow-bar to create a "lever effect." think here about Archimedes and his "lever and fulcrum." the bucket on a loader tilts (curls) forward and back (up and down) using separate hydraulic cylinders from those used to "lift" the entire loader. suppose you pulled up to the slab of concrete you were going to put your crow-bar under and slipped the bucket edge under the slab of concrete. if you pulled back on the bucket curling lever allowing the bucket to curl up - that is the "break-out" force. this forces is GREATER than the lift force capacity of the entire loader because the "bucket pins" act as a "fulcrum" and the bucket acts as a lever - thus adding a "mechanical advantage" to the hydraulic cylinders that curl the bucket. you can perform a simple test on any loader to see the difference between "lift capacity" and "break-out force capacity." run your tractor over to any very heavy object - a concrete slab, a large tree trunk, etc. put the heavy object inside the loader bucket and try and lift the object off the ground. if the loader will not pick the item off the ground, the object's weight exceeds the "lift" capacity of the loader. now, do the same thing with the heavy object but this time, do not try and lift the object off the ground with the loader, just put the edge of the bucket under part of the object and "curl" the bucket backward and see if the bucket will pick the item off the ground to the extent that the bucket will curl rearward. that is the "break-out force" capacity - which will always be MORE than the "lift" capacity. if you want to "visualize" "break-out force" put the bucket flat on the ground and then curl the bucket backward. the rear bucket pins are the "fulcrum" and the bucket itself is the "lever."
Hey good morning Jim! Thanks for taking the time to explain the above. This area of the tractor is definitely a head scratcher for me - There are so many different variations of explanations from different folks but I always appreciate respectful feedback. We all learn from each other. Here is where the above explanation causes me pause : In the manual for the FEL, those pages I show on the video outline 3 different "forces" in the Table : Lift Capacity (defined as the amount you can hold at the highest point) -, Break Out Force , and Roll Back Force. Looking at the schematics of the tractor (found below the Table on that page), it appears the Roll Back force lines up with your thoughts above. You can find the manual for the Loader online if you google for Kubota LA434 manual. Also, here is the definition of Breakout Force from the ASAE specs : " 5.1.5 Breakout force-at pivot pin (Y): Vertical lifting force, in newtons (pounds), the loader will exert at the bucket pivot pin centerline using the lift cylinders only, with the bucket horizontal at ground line." . Note it says using the "lift cylinders only". So this is kind of what confuses me as several folks have provided a similar explanation as you have above. So I think I still have some work to do to solve this one.LOL. But hey, if you have time to look at it further, I would appreciate hearing any further feedback you have. Again, I really appreciate you taking the time to help out - it helps all of us. Have a great week and talk again soon!
@@GPOutdoors hi GP. thank you for your kind words. the description of "break out force" in your manual is similar to my example even if the sentence composition is a bit "tortured." look at the side of your bucket and imagine that it is an Isosceles Triangle lying on its side with the "short" vertical axis being at the pivot pin and the two longer (horizontal) axes being the top and bottom of the bucket. the manual states: "Breakout force - vertical lifting force...in pounds the loader will exert at the bucket pivot pin .... using the lift cylinders only... with the bucket horizontal at ground line." that translates to the "bucket lift cylinders" "lifting" the front of the bucket up in the air (curling upward) as the bucket "pivots" on the bucket pivot pin at the back of the bucket. the "lift cylinders" being referred to are the cylinders that operate the bucket only - NOT the cylinders that lift the entire loader assembly. remember, you have TWO "lifting actions" with a tractor loader: 1. the lifting of the entire loader assembly up in the air; 2. the movement of the bucket up and down (curling back and forth) on the pivot pin of the rear of the bucket. the two lifting specifications for any loader refer to each of these two separate actions - "lift capacity" - the maximum amount of weight you can put in a bucket and lift into the air to maximum height AND "breakout force" the maximum amount of "lifting force" as measured in pounds, that the front of the bucket will lift just by "curling" the bucket backwards while the bucket is sitting flat on the ground.
Good morning Jim. That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for explaining that so clearly. So, assuming we have solved Lift Capacity and Break Out Force correctly, then I am still left with trying to figure out what Roll Back Force is? I know I am asking a little more of you , and it's ok if you don't have the time , but care to take a shot at it? It's the last piece of the puzzle...:)) Either way I really appreciate your efforts so far. I will need to vet this a little further and as needed, put together a new video to correct anything that may have been misstated in the first one. So the quest continues. Thanks again!
LOL No way Clifford! That snow is yours my friend. I am happy to wait till ours comes. :)) If you are getting it already, that means it won't be long before we get it here. Geez, I have a lot to clean up before the white stuff flies. I better get in gear. Cheers!
I am pretty much sold on the Kabota but am wrestling with the size, I like yours but if i want to bale some hay then it needs to be a bit bigger. Hmmmm... maybe TWO tractors? ha ha.
Hey RC! I agree to a point with Joel. Buy as much as you can afford and balanced with what you know you need it to do. Good luck and let me know how it turns out! You don't want to find out after that you cannot lift or do what you need to do with it. All the best!
Very true I bet Joel. LMAO. Get the most you can for your budget for sure. Its got to be brutal finding out after the fact that the tractor you bought doesn't do what you need it to. Cheers gents!!
I did last week!!! But I must admit it was one odd job situation where I wish I had a smaller tractor. The next day, I already changed my mind! Bigger/better. Lol!
@@unsignedchar000 I'm trying to sell my 1970 G950 Minneapolis Moline because I've downsized my property and definitely have way too big of a tractor. I wish I could shrink the big mule.
I have about 4 acres here, Lee. Very fortunate to stumble on it years ago and very happy I did. Lots to do here - no rush of course - but lots to do over time. Thanks!
Good point Tomas. I also have to confirm whether the bucket weight or FEL weight is included. I think I still have some more research to do. Thanks for watching and for saying hi as always! Cheers!
I’ve got to say GP, that’s the best (and only) description of what all that means I’ve ever heard! Thank you for going to all of the trouble to dig out the meaning of those specifications. I know it was a lot of work and you did a great job of it. I’m in the process of picking out my first new tractor and it gets overwhelming watching and reading everything. You just made it more simple to understand. Thanks!
Hey thanks Jim! So make sure before you buy, that they show you that spec sheet and graph in the manual. That will help a lot. At the end of the day, you need to know what you can lift safely off the ground. Be well and all the best!
GP, I love your videos, please keep it up! If you look at the triangle created by the lift cylinders and the boom of the loader when the bucket is on the ground, you’ll notice that it’s a much “fatter” triangle then when the boom is fully raised. In the fully raised position the triangle is very “skinny”. The “fat” triangle is what gives the lift cylinders their power. The skinny triangle seriously takes away from that power. In fact if you imagine the boom raising beyond the full lift height of 6.5 feet, it’s easy to see that in theory, the lift cylinders would be pushing directly through the hinge point of the boom in which case they would have no lifting capacity whatsoever. As far as breakout force goes, I believe that has to do with the geometry of the curl function. The curling of the bucket while on the ground can provide tremendous lift capacity because of the geometry and linkage of the bucket cylinders. Hope this makes sense!
Good morning Bert! It actually does make sense to me - thanks! I have never had it explained that way before but it was super helpful. Thanks again! Have a great weekend and all the best!
Dude you made my mind up between an L2501 and a B2650.....
I am going B2650, i do not need the extra lift or weight to do my intended tasks.
Thank you, your channel has been invaluable in guiding toward practical knowledge. Cheers dude!
Good day. I am really happy it helped. Good luck with the new tractor purchase. Very exciting time! Cheers - maybe let me know how it turns out from time to time.
What ever weight it can lift you need to subtract the weight of the Implement
( loader bucket, forks, snow plow, ect )
Break out force is what the curl cylinders can exert on the front edge of the bucket ...in this case leverage to scoop out a bucket of dirt or roll back that massive log.
Now looking at the B26TLB specs and it gives a solid description of the forces exerted at certain points.....so wording without giving the specific point means nothing (manufactures game of misleading numbers) and clearly roll back vs breakout force can be interchanged but I view both as what the curl cylinders can do for work at specific points out from the pivot pins at ground level (which is the max breakout point) For the B26 at 1.5m out in front of the pivot pins it is 3969lbs.
So for buyers get a hold of the owners manual and carefully compare numbers at the same points of distance
Also GP when you curled that log back then tried to do a lift up and nothing happened then you went straight for more throttle and still nothing happened ......brings me to Messicks newest TMT video explaining what just happened or in this case nothing happened nor changed.....anyways great example of the Messicks Vid
Hey bkrgi. Thanks for the comment. Respectfully, not sure I can agree with that. Here is the direct excerpt from the ASAE standards (no mention of curl cylinders): "Section 5.1.5 Breakout force-at pivot pin (Y): Vertical lifting force, in newtons (pounds), the loader will exert at the bucket pivot pin centerline using the lift cylinders only, with the bucket horizontal at ground line." I am not that familiar with a lot of things yet, as you know, but I think this seems pretty clear. Let me know your thoughts - I always welcome your comments. Cheers and thanks for contributing!
Well I can't argue with the Definition but can argue with the wording. Their "breakout force" literally means lift capacity at the pins with bucket on the ground....so your right in how you presented it....it is to do with lift nothing with curl. For me breakout force is the greatest force you can use on the loader which is the curl on the front end of the bucket of which they call it "roll back force". I think the wording and how they themselves define it is what tosses people off ..like me hahaha because I think breakout force on a backhoe and it's to do with the bucket so I think breakout force/what the bucket on the loader can do which is based on the curl function.
Anyways great discussion and this would really help newbs who truly want to crunch numbers an make comparisons. Honestly for any buyer I would figure out how much you want to lift then find a tractor that can exceed that amount easily otherwise compromising is in order.
When I went looking to buy between the B's, I settled on the very much higher priced TLB cause i did not want something that I could easily twist up....heavier built is better in my world.
Thanks for sending the additional info bkrgi. You make some good points. What I was trying to do was help the new folks like myself, cause when we see that spec, we assume it means it is the lift capacity at ground and it is honestly pretty confusing to new folks who don't have the experience like yourself. But your explanation above helps a lot. Thanks for taking the time to write it out for us. Be well and have a great weekend!!
I would say I tought breakout force like you. So to say, you put the bucket on the ground, FEL in float mode and you measure the "lift" capacity of the bucket only by curling. Apparently, I had it wrong. The rollback seems to define this. Maybe the terms definitions has changed over time after some standardization.
Well the good thing is now I know what that other term listed in the spec chart means (Roll Back Force). Thanks guys!!
Thanks GP some really good information, I just ordered a B2601 this week, your videos where a huge factor in my decision, thanks so much for all the great videos, you do a fantastic job, keep them coming, have a good one!!
Thank you for researching that. Just got a new tractor and was wondering that exact question. One small issue with your physics, the amount of force which is required to lift the weight is any Force above the weight. Even if it's slightly above the weight it will just lift extremely slowly. I imagine if you were trying to lift something extremely close to the weight rating of your tractor you would hear the pressure release constantly kicking in while you were lifting because of the force required to lift the object at an acceptable speed.
the amount of force required to hold the object in the air is equal to the weight of the object. the amount of force required to hold the object up in the air varies as you drive the tractor over rough Terrain. As it bounces your tractor is possibly holding up more than it is rated to lift at times. if you were to pick up an extremely heavy objects and drive over rough terrain you could possibly damage something.
I am guessing that I'm telling you nothing that you did not already know. Just a couple things were unclear so I wanted to make sure. Thanks again for doing all that research and actually going to the documentation to find the answers. I appreciate your Channel.
Hey good morning Micayle. I wish I spoke to you first - LOL! You did a great job of explaining it far better than I did. :)) Very much appreciated. Actually I didn't know all of that above but now that you explained it so well, it made a few things I had in my mind come together and make sense. Thanks for taking the time to write it out so clearly. All the best and good luck with the new tractor!! Cheers!
Excellent tutorial !!!!
I think that’s a pretty darn good explanation GP! Math is hard but I think when it’s based around something like this, it’s a little more enjoyable for me. Sounds like everyone north and west of me have already gotten snow and I’m just crossing my fingers we’re not next. Hope you’re prepped for winter! I can’t imagine working outside anymore, mostly just waiting for deer season, and ski season after that. Too cold for fun now. Stay warm up there! Cheers!
Hey Jackson! Great to hear from you. Its coming no doubt! But I still have a lot of prep to do before it gets here so I need to get in gear and get ready - it won't be long! Hope we have a great snowmobile season this year. Be well!!
Thanks. It helps me greatly in choosing a tractor.
Good luck Travis! So many models now that are out there to choose from. Best of luck in working through all the comparisons and details, pricing etc. Cheers!
Another consideration when lifting heavy weight is the effect on the front wheels. I once had the seal of one of the front tires pop when I made a sharp turn (at low speed) while moving a large log chained to the front end loader. I had to shut down while I dropped the load, removed the wheel and took it to town to be repaired.
Good day Keith - that's a great point. Thanks for sharing with us. I agree - front axle capacity is very important. Cheers!
Great explanation with engineered specs. The only way to go, to stay safe and not break the camel's back , as we say.
Thanks Mr. Fixit! And a big thanks for pushing me to dig deeper to make sure I was not exceeding the ratings for the tractor. Much appreciated. All the best to you and your family!
Well done GP, like I told you before, you and Joe are very good teacher !!! Take care Sir !
I have a B2601HSD on order. The salesman told me because I lift 600# logs I need to get the L2501. I just ignored him and I feel more confident in my decision after watching your videos. 1500# 2’ off the ground is more than ample for my needs. Thanks and keep the videos coming 👍🏻
Good morning H! Congrats on the new tractor! You must be pretty excited. I am happy the videos have helped you a bit but please remember , I am still a newbie. I have learned so far that the front axle is rated for 1300 lbs, so I basically now try to lift well under that weight but otherwise if a log is heavier , I simply cut it first and take two pieces. I have also learned not to try to carry 15 foot lengths anymore. It's pretty hard to get them through the forest so I generally cut my lengths to about 8 feet maximum - much easier to manage. I keep lots of weight on the back for ballast and so far, my little 2601 has been great. I am really happy with it for the size and weights of the things I need to do with it. Good luck and let me know how it is going from time to time!
Thanks GP for bringing that subject. This will clear some misconceptions!
I think the breakout force is what the RV is set to in the loader valve. The pump might only put out 2000 psi but the RV is set to 4000lbs which means that if you push on something you can double the load before the RV cracks and relieves the pressure. So you might only be able to lift 1000lbs but you could put 2000lbs of force on it before the RV kicks in and causes the bucket to drop. This saves the cylinders and structure from damage. There are usually 2 RV's, one in the pump and one in the loader valve. The one in the loader valve is usually set higher.
That was an awesome run done on the lifting capacity GP. You explained things really good, I watch Neal from Messicks. He too, does an excellent job. Thanks buddy have a good evening.
You too my friend. Have a great weekend!
An interesting topic with lots of science at play. You did a good job explaining this. Thanks.
Thanks Grampie!!
This, fm NJ, really enjoyed your video and explanation, gave me a much better understanding of my K.
Good morning Barr B! Glad it helped a little. Best I could figure it out so far, so hopefully it is directionally correct based on what I could research. Thanks for watching and all the best to you!
Good information. Thanks. A wonderful weekend to you and your family as well.
You too Chuck! Cheers!
The lift capacity 500mm in front of the pin is what you should be able to lift and be well within the FEL design limits, not the value at the pin. If the centre of gravity of the load is closer to the pin then you can lift more as you get closer to the pin.
Fine explanation, GP. It's obvious you did a lot of research and you delivered well. Enjoyed a full watch; thumbs up.
Hey thanks Houndsman. I think I got it right. If not, then I am sure I was close. LOL. Cheers!
I think you are spot-on, GP. Many operators will enjoy your explanation and other experienced operators will share helpful information, as well. Have a fine upcoming weekend.
You too Houndsman!!
GP, I certainly agree with your observation that lifting a load at a distance from you is much more difficult that lifting it close in. A key indicator in my view is that the manual shows different units for lift than Break out Force (BoF). The BOF units are for torque, i.e. foot-pounds. A good analogy might be lifting barbells just using your wrist (i.e. curl cylinder). Imagine straight-arm curling a 20 lb barbell only with your wrist, but then extending that barbell from your hand 12" somehow, then trying to curl it again....way harder. The further away the barbell, the harder it is to lift. (twice as far out, means you need twice the torque). This capacity (BoF) is different than what barbell you can lift vertically using only your biceps (lift cylinders).
Good evening Ron. That's an excellent observation and makes good sense. The manual also shows different values for roll back or curl force. This has been an intriguing subject for me Ron. Lots of different or varying views on the definition of BoF. But I think I am getting closer to fully understanding the correct interpretation of it. Thanks again good sir. An excellent example using the barbells. Cheers!
Always wondered that but was too lazy to figure it out myself. Thanks GP
You are welcome AK!
Sounds good to me. All I know is that I'm sold on the B2601. Really enjoy your videos.
Hey thanks Jerry! For a small property like mine, it does the job! Really happy with it. Stay warm!
Tried to lift to much once with one of my kubotas. It lifted the back wheels off the ground. Had 600 lb. Rototiller on the back.
Best to go easy when lifting the heavy stuff.
Thanks Dave. I agree. But good to know how fr it will go if really needed. Otherwise, I like to keep it safe and low weight if possible. Cheers!
the towns new T5.115 a 115hp newholland cant lift 940 lbs of bricks on pallets wich kubota could lift it like a hulk :)
@@michaelmactavish1728 My 25 HP L could life that and more... what gives?
@@roflstomps324 yeah there strong little beast seen some city guys useing a b2601 doing sidewalks in the winter wich pretty slick multipurpose and cheaper then spending $140,000 on a holder wich redicluas for a little holder c992
Good video GP. Very informative. I learned some things.
Thanks B Bo!
Gp It's your front bucket curl cylindres and I had lots Backhoe and experience with the Breaking force . I'm not crityzing you , love your videos GP I dont wont you to break anything on little tractor b2601 , mY KUBOTA IS 1999 , 24 HDS , LOVE IT ALLMOST 28 years now but it sleep Inside .no heat .have great day .keep the videos comming, God Bless .
Thanks Leo!! Always appreciate hearing from you. And I respect your opinion a lot. You have a lot more experience than me. The important point for me out of all of this is that I know I am not hurting my tractor lifting that 1500 lbs a foot and a half off the ground. And I sort of get the break out force thing (not totally but a bit more than I did). Thanks my friend. And thanks for sticking with me for so long on this channel. Cheers and all the best !
Great video GP! You did good Thanks
Thanks Nate! All the best!
Great video, Thank You!!
Thanks Barry!
good video. Keep up the good work.
I have a Mahindra 5010 which has a max lift of around 3100 lbs and a breakout of 5225lbs . I never carry a heavy load with it any higher than is necessary to clear the ground. Love my tractor and don’t want to break it.
Morning Mac. Me too! Thanks for watching and for the comment this morning! All the best!
Great explanation on lifting capacities, what about the capacity of tires, it seems at max loads those front tires are really straining especially on uneven ground? Keep the videos coming, I really enjoy watching and learning!
Good morning hermit! That is a really good question. I noticed that too when I was lifting that Ash timber. That was the first time i saw that the front tires were compressing. I will look into that. Thanks for the kind words and for watching. Cheers!
The curl cylinder would move if you had self leveling bucket. good video.
You should re-do this video because it is miss-leading. The Roll-Back force is similar to using a claw hammer to extract a nail from a piece of wood. It is only using the curl cylinders to curl or roll-back the bucket, pivoting it about the roll pin where the bucket is attached so that the front of the bucket is raising while the back of the bucket is resting on the ground. It is leveraging against the ground for maximum force. The BreakOut force is a combination of the curl cylinder and the lift cylinder to perform the combined function of curling the bucket so that the front edge is raising and the lift arms are lifting the bucket vertically. The BreakOut force is greater than the lifting capacity because it has two cylinders working in tandem to produce the force. But this is only measured at the ground because you can actually rest the bucket on the ground and leverage the bucket against the ground using the curl cylinders for a brief moment while it is also trying to use the lift cylinders to start the lifting process. After the bucket is off of the ground, then all of the force is being derived from the lift cylinders for the rest of the lift stroke, and as the lift cylinder is extended, it actually gets de-rated because of the internal surface area of the exterior cylinder housing that is now taking more and more surface pressure, which can cause a rupture of the cylinder wall as more cylinder wall is exposed to the hydraulic pressure. Maximum cylinder hydraulic pressure and max load is always with the least amount of cylinder wall surface exposed.
Good job!
Nice job in explaining the technical aspect of the loader. Being in the woods like you I just give her a try and see what she will lift. If it doesn't lift then it gets dragged or cut down to lift size. Good content on the video!!
Paul. Me too. Still not well experienced at being to estimate the weight of things. I do the same thing. If it lifts, I am good. If not, then I haul out the chain. LOL. Thanks!! Be well! Thanks for watching and for the comment!
According to the chart in your manual, I am glad to see that my understanding was wrong, that break out force included the curl function. It likely does, but the graph clearly shows what JUST the lift cylinders can do. But I'll have to argue a bit that it's not the extension of the cylinders that causes the reduction in lift....look again at your cylinders at ground level versus fully lifted. There is a massive difference in the geometry, down low the lift cylinders have far more....uhm, kinda hard to explain, lol. But I THINK the extra lift down low is simple geometry. Combined with some curl power.
You are probably right 10essee! I think I sort of got it ok, but I still have questions about that whole curl thing but I think I feel a little more confident about what it means. At least know pretty much for sure that the Break Out is not the same as the lift capacity. Thanks my friend. Keep smiling !
How much does the pro lift on b 2620 kubota
Nice informative video
Thanks Teddy!!
thats why kubota is like big haulk hogan there that storng and its all right GP shes a strong little beast cheers
Does the 931 pound lift capacity to its maximum height include the weight of the bucket or the grapple?
Good morning Joe, No I believe it is in addition. I asked the dealer and also in the manual it identifies that the loader and bucket together are 610 lbs and the specs are in addition to that as I understand it. Hope that helps. GP.
Very good explanation of the front loaders operation. The designed capacity is very high and just what you would want but, that is just the loader. The capacity of the tractor running gear must also (or not) be considered when lifting heavy loads. Tires, axels, bearing, ect. must all in their turn carry the loads once lifted. All that said, the B-2601 Kubota only has a front axel capacity of just over 1300 lb.s according to the spec. sheet and if you add the bounce factor which is what I think broke the front end of my tractor years ago, weight on the loader can and do become extreme! I am looking for some pictures I took when it happened to me if I find them I well send you copies.
Hey good morning Rick. Yes you bet. I still need to do more digging as you make a good point. If my front end can only handle 1300 lbs, then I need to be conscious of that. Which makes me wonder what other components I need to also be careful of. I'd also like to ask the dealer why the tractor can lift more weight than it can handle on the front axle. Still lots to do. And yes, if you have the pics, I would like to see them. Cheers and thanks again Rick!
Because the loader attaches to the center of the tractor. The load on the bucket is transferred through the loader to the frame. The frame is supported by both axles not just the front! So u were just fine lifting that big ash. Obviously u dont want to bounce around as that increases the forces.
And if you ballast the back of the tractor, even less of the weight is on the front axle. For argument's sake, if you put 1000 lbs on the back of the tractor, that's now pivoting on the rear axle, and lifting the front of the tractor somewhat. When you put load on the FEL, it first balances out that rear load, then puts load on the front axle. Because you've got two pivot points (front axle and rear axle) the overall load is kinda hard to work out - but basically the more you put on the back, the more weight you lift off the front axles. The right amount of ballast is probably as much as you can take so that you can still steer when the FEL is empty - that shifts as much weight to the back axle as possible.
Hey thanks Andy. Sorry I just saw this- that makes sense - Cheers!
Hey good morning and thanks Paul! Cheers!
G P math is not my cup of tea wish they had a charts that tell how much you can lift at x amount of feet we have a BX so I will look in the loder manual
God Bless
PaK
Me either peter. LOL. But I have a chart which I think I have figured out. All good. Be well and talk again soon!
I have a question. 1st very good video. Very informative. Take a 3301 by Kubota. The lift capacity is about 1100 lbs at pivot pin. Tractor and loader probably 22-23 Thousand. The RK 37 demonstrated on outdoor with the Morgans will lift about 22 hundred lbs. Price 20 grand. (Lift at pivot pin as well). So should you lean towards a Rural King as opposed to the Kubota. It seems that Kubota and John Deere have clean lines , good craftsmanship but Tractors like Mahindra, RK, LS, TYM...Smoke them on performance. I would appreciate some feedback . I hear over and over again you're paying for the Green or Orange paint. What do you think? Thanks. Mark.
Good morning Mark. Well, I have to say I am no expert for sure on this but for what it's worth, and in general, here are my thoughts. I think for sure you pay a little more for the paint. But that's because the paint has a long history of engineering, presence and historical long time proven reliability behind it. Not to say that others don't have good engineering, but the market is now becoming much more competitive than it used to be, especially in the compact and utility segments. Take any industry you can think of and usually as new competition enters, the old more established brands take a while to realize or react to the fact that their market share is being depleted. Most if not all those brands above have good long warranties so that would give me comfort. Re: performance. I think the new competitors are doing what they need to do to gain market share. They are providing more value for less money. Of course, without a long timeline of historical performance ( relative to green or orange), they know that is a big consideration for someone spending $20k. and therefore a big hurdle to get the consumer over. Why I bought orange. Of the 4 dealers I visited, the Dealer was awesome, and still is to this day. Selling tractors for 40+ years, so they had long presence, proven long time reliability and experience and that was worth a little more to me since I am a long way from any dealer. But I'll sum up with this - the RKs look like a good tractor with good value for the money. And they have an 8 year warranty on them ( longer than Kubota). And they are trying to break into an established competitive market so they should be providing greater value than the established companies. So if you find the dealer is good and you have confidence in him/her, and after reviewing the full specs ( not just lift capacity) of the various tractors you compare, it looks like a good match for you, I would consider it. The company that makes RK has been around for a very long time. So some research/ googling on them would be helpful too to help provide confidence. Sorry that was a long answer and not sure I helped you much but hope there was something in there that helped. LOL. Good luck and let me know how it turns out if you decide to buy one. Cheers Mark!
@@GPOutdoors Thanks. Very helpful. I guess a point I was making, why would you buy a Kubota 33 hp when you can buy the RK with 37 HP , lifts DOUBLE on the Loader and 2 to 4 Thousand less money? But you are right. One way to put a footprint in this market is to come up with a Tractor with these specs and unbeatable price. Hard to turn down. I have owned the LS 33 hp for 2 years, put 230 hours on it, with zero problems. My lifting capacity on the loader is 1600 lbs. The 3 pt 1800 but I'm looking to upgrade to something a little stronger. I have 2 builders I work for. They flip old houses. Their yards are way overgrown with bushes, ground covers , vines as big as your fist, wild growing small trees and junk. I usually load dumpsters or sometimes bury it. I also dig new driveways . You can go to www.tuckertractorworks.com. and see some photos. I did Construction and remodeling, decks, bathrooms, floors, kitchens, room additions you name it for 30 years but my Arthritis won't let me do it anymore so I bought a Tractor and started doing clean up. I really enjoy it. It is very gratifying and enjoyable. I just like the outdoors, the wildlife, Gods creation and the smell of diesel fuel. Sounds nuts but that's what some of us men do. Thank you for taking the time to answer. God Bless. Mark.
You're welcome Mark. Hope it helped a little. It sounds like you are doing something you enjoy a lot. There is something about being outside working. That is awesome. Enjoy it and be safe! Cheers!
@@markmccoy1304 Seems you can't buy RK tractors in Canada, so it's not an option vs Kubota. Also, USD 1000 is about CAD 1300+ .
@@BigredApril1951 Thanks.
Hi
Great videos
Something that I recently was reminded of is the weight of the quick release frame on my Kubota loader reduces the lifting capacity of my loader, I have a B3150 with a LA 534 loader and it is disappointing what it fails to lift when compared to my old B2710 that was stolen.
I also find the loader operates faster than I would like when working close up.
Michael
Good morning Michael. Thanks for sharing - I am not sure if I knew that. Because I am still learning, I now learned to run at low RPMs so the loader operates much slower so I am able to use it easier. The tractor does not need to be at high RPMs unless you need every ounce of capacity to lift something. Under normal use, I run at about 1800 - 2000 RPM on the B and it lifts and operates well and the loader operates nice and slow. Thanks again for sharing your experience and all the best!
Were did you get the Graple? And what Brand is it?
Good day Shane. It is manufactured by HLA Attachments ( they have a website by the same name) here in Ontario Canada but they do not sell retail so you would need to go through a dealer. I purchased it from my Kubota dealer and I know Farmer Equipment Sales (website same name) also sells them. Hope that helps. Cheers!
Good overall. Your physics was wrong at the beginning... u were thinking of sliding aka static friction vs rolling aka dynamic friction. That is for sliding things not lifting them. If u have to lift 100lbs vertically then u need 100lbs.
2nd the lift capacity changes as the height increases because the lift cylinder angle changes. Angles and leverage r key. That is why one tractor might have really high break out force but lower lift capacity vs the competition.
So if u load trucks u want to focus on the max load at max height. If u dig all the time u want to focus on the breakout force.
Hey thanks Andy. Still a little foggy on it but I think I kind of have the idea. I get what you are saying about the life and height. That makes sense to me for sure. Thanks for giving me a little more info on it. Have a good one and talk again soon. Cheers!
A great many of these tractors are used simply as loaders, and while you are essentially correct , when used as a loader the more break out force you have translates to how well you can load your bucket. example if you can drive into say a pile of soil and pick straight up rather than having to back out somewhat before you can lift your bucket allows you to get a larger load in the Bucket therefore decreasing operator time and in the case of the customer giving them the full scoop they may have paid for. It is also my understanding that currently a comparable John Deere tractor has about 35% more break out force. but either way you look at it each companies tractor has both its pros and cons great video
Thanks Lee. I still have a few things to sort out in understanding all these specs but learning a little as I go. Cheers!
respectfully, i cannot agree with your explanation of "lift capacity" versus "break-out force capacity." the "lift" capacity of a loader is the total amount of weight you can put in the bucket and then lift the bucket off the ground to the total height of the loader - say 900 lbs. of dirt or gravel or cement blocks, etc. loaded in the bucket. the "break-out" force is like prying a sidewalk slab off the ground by putting a crow-bar under the slab and then putting a brick under the crow-bar to create a "lever effect." think here about Archimedes and his "lever and fulcrum." the bucket on a loader tilts (curls) forward and back (up and down) using separate hydraulic cylinders from those used to "lift" the entire loader. suppose you pulled up to the slab of concrete you were going to put your crow-bar under and slipped the bucket edge under the slab of concrete. if you pulled back on the bucket curling lever allowing the bucket to curl up - that is the "break-out" force. this forces is GREATER than the lift force capacity of the entire loader because the "bucket pins" act as a "fulcrum" and the bucket acts as a lever - thus adding a "mechanical advantage" to the hydraulic cylinders that curl the bucket. you can perform a simple test on any loader to see the difference between "lift capacity" and "break-out force capacity." run your tractor over to any very heavy object - a concrete slab, a large tree trunk, etc. put the heavy object inside the loader bucket and try and lift the object off the ground. if the loader will not pick the item off the ground, the object's weight exceeds the "lift" capacity of the loader. now, do the same thing with the heavy object but this time, do not try and lift the object off the ground with the loader, just put the edge of the bucket under part of the object and "curl" the bucket backward and see if the bucket will pick the item off the ground to the extent that the bucket will curl rearward. that is the "break-out force" capacity - which will always be MORE than the "lift" capacity. if you want to "visualize" "break-out force" put the bucket flat on the ground and then curl the bucket backward. the rear bucket pins are the "fulcrum" and the bucket itself is the "lever."
Hey good morning Jim! Thanks for taking the time to explain the above. This area of the tractor is definitely a head scratcher for me - There are so many different variations of explanations from different folks but I always appreciate respectful feedback. We all learn from each other. Here is where the above explanation causes me pause : In the manual for the FEL, those pages I show on the video outline 3 different "forces" in the Table : Lift Capacity (defined as the amount you can hold at the highest point) -, Break Out Force , and Roll Back Force. Looking at the schematics of the tractor (found below the Table on that page), it appears the Roll Back force lines up with your thoughts above. You can find the manual for the Loader online if you google for Kubota LA434 manual. Also, here is the definition of Breakout Force from the ASAE specs : " 5.1.5 Breakout force-at pivot pin (Y): Vertical lifting force, in newtons (pounds), the loader will exert at the bucket pivot pin centerline using the lift cylinders only, with the bucket horizontal at ground line." . Note it says using the "lift cylinders only". So this is kind of what confuses me as several folks have provided a similar explanation as you have above. So I think I still have some work to do to solve this one.LOL. But hey, if you have time to look at it further, I would appreciate hearing any further feedback you have. Again, I really appreciate you taking the time to help out - it helps all of us. Have a great week and talk again soon!
@@GPOutdoors hi GP. thank you for your kind words. the description of "break out force" in your manual is similar to my example even if the sentence composition is a bit "tortured." look at the side of your bucket and imagine that it is an Isosceles Triangle lying on its side with the "short" vertical axis being at the pivot pin and the two longer (horizontal) axes being the top and bottom of the bucket. the manual states: "Breakout force - vertical lifting force...in pounds the loader will exert at the bucket pivot pin .... using the lift cylinders only... with the bucket horizontal at ground line." that translates to the "bucket lift cylinders" "lifting" the front of the bucket up in the air (curling upward) as the bucket "pivots" on the bucket pivot pin at the back of the bucket. the "lift cylinders" being referred to are the cylinders that operate the bucket only - NOT the cylinders that lift the entire loader assembly. remember, you have TWO "lifting actions" with a tractor loader: 1. the lifting of the entire loader assembly up in the air; 2. the movement of the bucket up and down (curling back and forth) on the pivot pin of the rear of the bucket. the two lifting specifications for any loader refer to each of these two separate actions - "lift capacity" - the maximum amount of weight you can put in a bucket and lift into the air to maximum height AND "breakout force" the maximum amount of "lifting force" as measured in pounds, that the front of the bucket will lift just by "curling" the bucket backwards while the bucket is sitting flat on the ground.
Good morning Jim. That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for explaining that so clearly. So, assuming we have solved Lift Capacity and Break Out Force correctly, then I am still left with trying to figure out what Roll Back Force is? I know I am asking a little more of you , and it's ok if you don't have the time , but care to take a shot at it? It's the last piece of the puzzle...:)) Either way I really appreciate your efforts so far. I will need to vet this a little further and as needed, put together a new video to correct anything that may have been misstated in the first one. So the quest continues. Thanks again!
It sounds good to me I send you and guy some some snow got about 3 inch in western Minnesota
LOL No way Clifford! That snow is yours my friend. I am happy to wait till ours comes. :)) If you are getting it already, that means it won't be long before we get it here. Geez, I have a lot to clean up before the white stuff flies. I better get in gear. Cheers!
I am pretty much sold on the Kabota but am wrestling with the size, I like yours but if i want to bale some hay then it needs to be a bit bigger. Hmmmm... maybe TWO tractors? ha ha.
Hey RC! I agree to a point with Joel. Buy as much as you can afford and balanced with what you know you need it to do. Good luck and let me know how it turns out! You don't want to find out after that you cannot lift or do what you need to do with it. All the best!
It's the same thing my friend said to me. He got a 40 HP tractor with a FEL and a back hoe.
Very true I bet Joel. LMAO. Get the most you can for your budget for sure. Its got to be brutal finding out after the fact that the tractor you bought doesn't do what you need it to. Cheers gents!!
I did last week!!! But I must admit it was one odd job situation where I wish I had a smaller tractor. The next day, I already changed my mind! Bigger/better. Lol!
@@unsignedchar000 I'm trying to sell my 1970 G950 Minneapolis Moline because I've downsized my property and definitely have way too big of a tractor. I wish I could shrink the big mule.
your land is Beautiful, how many acres do you have?
I have about 4 acres here, Lee. Very fortunate to stumble on it years ago and very happy I did. Lots to do here - no rush of course - but lots to do over time. Thanks!
hydraulic fluid has hardly no give so roll back to me would be the hole tractor with load
You have to reconfigure your math cause you have the skid steer connection. That puts it out further than the pins.
Good point Tomas. I also have to confirm whether the bucket weight or FEL weight is included. I think I still have some more research to do. Thanks for watching and for saying hi as always! Cheers!
@@GPOutdoors I like your channel by the way.