My best friend was the blue farm player in top 16 to wounded’s right hand side, he is completely deaf in one ear and I gained so much respect for wounded watching him after that game. Every time someone was talking too loud around the pod, I saw wounded shoosh them all so he can hear. Thank you wounded, that meant a lot to myself and my buddy Shane who was playing. Glad you made top 16 and sorry you didn’t make top 4.
I honestly had never heard of DDB and when I did find it it’s hard to navigate not pleasant to look at. The Colors are a crutch discord is so much better for finding decks people actually currently play. The community there to help you brew the decks is outstanding and so helpful. Thanks for another great episode gentlemen.
Yeah everyone’s a little biased towards what they want to happen, and I’m no exception. With the massacre example I stand by what I said, but in the top 16 I see both sides, but context adds a lot. The tymna jeska player on Mardu wincon.deck had significantly outdrawn me already with tymna, so I was surprised the other blue farms didn’t focus some attention there. - Wounded
I def think that you guys are right there should be no ‘winner’ of the top 4 if they decide not to play. That said, I totally empathize with not wanting to play after a long tournament, and I also sympathize with wanting to secure a slightly better payout. I think both are 100% valid reasons to not play and should not be looked down on.
Dude so happy I found this channel! Great vibes and you guys know your stuff! So do you guys pimp out your cedh decks? Like both of you love Ob and Florian you gotta pimp those out
On the game 2 play by Spurling. I think an important factor to remember is he's playing against x player, y player and Wounded Satellite on Kinnan. I'd probably try to kneecap the well known consistent top cut player as soon as an opportunity presents itself. It's a compliment as frustrating as it may be.
I absolutely believe that. However, there are a few people in cEDH that will draw extra attention based on reputation alone. It's a badge of honor that players like you, Waffle, Ian and so on.
without any more context I probably would have focused the kinnan in top16 too. TOR is like necropotence where if you cant beat them on CA you have to try and beat them on life. And if your one ring was at five you've already drawn 15 cards off it
My thoughts exactly. If 3 of the other players use their life totals and they don’t want to swing at each other…. they’re going to swing at you. Also in my local meta, everyone hates Kinnan players cause they either have a busted opening and win quick or they whiff and whiff and counterspell and counterspell until the game goes to time. So in top16, I can definitely understand wanting to punch the UG control player
Max P just angry that Dargo/Sidar is a top tier deck and Florian isn’t ;) Needs a basic land slot pls n ty (justice for clam chowder) also ardenn tana is heat. Hipster Stax is fire. Keep up the great work guys!
Biggest consideration on the Massacre is…does Talion player expect Kinnan to fight over the Massacre, giving Blue Farm at least 2+ cards? The obvious answer is yes 😅 (don’t boost the player who’s winning, save it for Tymna)
I don't like the ddb, I think it's highly nepotistic and a lot of the decklists, generally, are complacent when it comes to updating with the metashifts; additionally their understanding of how a lot of the "non-meta" decks (such as my darling Rocco) work is outrageously poor.
i was listening to lemora's cards top new player list, and decided ob nix sounded fun. Went to the DDB to try to find it and it wasn't on there - well timed, i'll check out edh top 16 instead.
Frankly, I supported the DDB a ton and still serve as a reviewer for the DDB, but after this last update my faith has been shaken in it. Having the disconnect between the reviews and the manager decisions not only felt like a big middle finger to you but also to the review team.
I've played this game for over 25 years. I have never built a deck from anyone else's list. The joy of the gaming is solving the puzzle your own way, like nobody else is, and that's the entire appeal of EDH to me. Being able to do it in cEDH is an even harder puzzle and I live for it.
I approached cedh the same way and got smashed lol. I eventually started looking at lists to see what they do and now i use what i have to to keep up. Then throw some spice in it lol. Here lately ive been throwin god pharoahs statue and channel countermagic. Its been lovely to use niche stuff.
@@Chris-e1w6n totally get that. I just refuse to take no for an answer and keep building new ideas. Some better than others, definitrly getting stronger over time.
@@ReyaadawnMTG niche cards and brewers advantage are where its at for home brewing. Doing things most players arent prepared for. My brother attacks your mana and that really messes up cedh players. He also was on morph cards before they caught on recently. We test new stuff but i take proven decks to a tourney. Have fun brewing!!
Cast amber -> target elf with HBH trigger. Tap amber for GG, cast elf for G, target amber with HBH trigger. Net + 1G. Do this a billion times until you can cast the elf using your floating every time instead of tapping amber. Continue loop but tap amber for blue instead and cast elf using some of your floating G mana. You never tap the elf.
Alright, here's my personal experience and issues with the database: I'm primarily a Sisay player. There's 4 Sisay lists on the database. 3 of them are relatively up to date even if two of them aren't really typical Sisay decks (the Pod and the Stax lists are atypical but have gotten some top 16s on occasion). However, and I don't want to put any hate on Rebell Son, she's a fun creator, but her Sisay list hasn't been updated in 4 months. She's admitted on the Sisay Discord that she doesn't have time to play Sisay to make changes. She's been playing 60 card formats to gain some experience from them which is fine, but if you're playing 60 card formats you're not staying up to date with the current cEDH meta. And on top of that, the last major change she made 4 months ago was removing a bunch of cards she had added in that have not been played in pretty much any tournament Sisay list ever (Orim's Chant, Cursed Mirror, Machine God's Effigy, Pithing Needle, Lightning Greaves?). And before that, the list hadn't been updated in months. Several people reached out to the database asking them to remove Rebell's Sisay list because it didn't reflect the Sisay lists being played at all and was clearly being neglected. And yet nothing was done. Meanwhile, I know at least two different 5C "Goodstuff" Sisay lists, one of which was Clam Chowder, have been submitted to the database, and rejected. So we have actual work and innovation into new archetypes being done, and that doesn't make the list, but outdated versions of the deck remain on the database. At this point the only good the database is doing is hosting a link to the Sisay Discord, where you actually get experienced players like Malcolm and Baneslayer who can give advice and there's actually up to date lists.
I heard fish bowl was a mess and the judges didn't know much, Ex. them saying at the beginning if you show a card to another player everyone gets to see that cards. Also someone accidently put a top deck tutor into their hand as well as the classic missed triggers that are may ability's.
I havent trusted the database since i discovered cedh. Just a ton of gatekeeping. Some great creators but overall id rather go to the creators direct then use that site.
@@untilthewheelsfalloff1751 I agree with Wounded, they shouldn't give out victory points if you make top "x" but don't win. I understand playing to a draw but where's the competitive spirit in "cEDH" if people are messing with the rules like that.
It speaks to the grade A bs that Ob Nix did in fact get returned to the DDB, but it took a whole day of arguing, outrage, and bullying to make it happen. Piss poor performance on their part. #justiceforflorian
Why does it feel like every commander's community, discord server, and content creator all has similar or even the exact same kind of story with the DDB? I've been trying to say for almost two years now that we need to move beyond that walled garden of a website already. Cedh players still strive to be on their when it feels like their relevancy has waned for a very long time now.
The database is obsolete since short off 3 years. That's what you get when you can't keep up with a shifting meta and complement with a lot of emotional decisions regarding its inclusions, and which lists do make the cut. How many of those decklists haven't been updated in a year? When perception takes priority over data and especially real, unbiased, passion, you don't have a reference for your followers you have suggestions to fall behind. It's an edh database, it's not, decisevely, 'competitive' both in its essence and in its actuation.
You clearly have personal animus against the cEDH DDB for personal reasons and perceived slights. You can deflect and claim its for the betterment of the DDB and "community", but it appears to be personal animosity. It was a hit piece segment that dovetailed into advertisement for your own resources. Petty and unnecessary schoolyard sniping. Good podcast overall. Keep up the good work.
@@hungryguitarstudent No doubt. Top16 is what I use to determine alot of things. My opinion is that devoting time to Twitter beef and Tally-keeping grudges is not useful.
@@garrettshouler9348 Regardless of their personnal experiences, 99.99% of the arguments they gave in this video can be factually verified, namely via consulting meta and conversion numbers on edhtop16. They actually have good points demonstrating that the ddb is irrelevant and misleading. As a new player, I've actually been initially mislead by the ddb. I have no clue about Twitter beefs 🤷♂
You literally play the tournament to get to the top 4 for a chance to play and win. What’s the point of not playing? Make it make sense. And please don’t say anything about points lol
Na I completely understand splitting top 4 and going home early. I've been in situations like that and everyone's just exhausted and wants to go home. I do agree though that the people who draw at the end shouldn't be considered as champions. They just made top 4 split and should get top 4 points or whatever.
I remember when the Malcolm Discord submitted Malcolm Tana to the database for the first time and it immediately got a few tops & wins just for it to get rejected but Cinestra & Twice's Okun Zndrsplt was able to get in 😐 I think Malcolm Tana eventually got in on the second try.
My best friend was the blue farm player in top 16 to wounded’s right hand side, he is completely deaf in one ear and I gained so much respect for wounded watching him after that game. Every time someone was talking too loud around the pod, I saw wounded shoosh them all so he can hear. Thank you wounded, that meant a lot to myself and my buddy Shane who was playing. Glad you made top 16 and sorry you didn’t make top 4.
Edhtop16 has eclipsed the database.
I have at this point messaged Zain about paying him back for the sandwich. - Wounded
Lol "friends dont let friends use the database" is my new motto!
Is it ok if I steal this? 🤣
You guys put out the best CEDH content, love it.
Great discussion, I enjoyed the insights based on real world performances
I honestly had never heard of DDB and when I did find it it’s hard to navigate not pleasant to look at. The Colors are a crutch discord is so much better for finding decks people actually currently play. The community there to help you brew the decks is outstanding and so helpful. Thanks for another great episode gentlemen.
Put some respect on the Utah cedh Meta. Schmant putting in that work baybee
It’s always questionable threat assessment when you lose lol
Yeah everyone’s a little biased towards what they want to happen, and I’m no exception. With the massacre example I stand by what I said, but in the top 16 I see both sides, but context adds a lot. The tymna jeska player on Mardu wincon.deck had significantly outdrawn me already with tymna, so I was surprised the other blue farms didn’t focus some attention there. - Wounded
I def think that you guys are right there should be no ‘winner’ of the top 4 if they decide not to play. That said, I totally empathize with not wanting to play after a long tournament, and I also sympathize with wanting to secure a slightly better payout. I think both are 100% valid reasons to not play and should not be looked down on.
Dude so happy I found this channel! Great vibes and you guys know your stuff! So do you guys pimp out your cedh decks? Like both of you love Ob and Florian you gotta pimp those out
Yeah we tend to bling our shit out, and coming soon we will actually have matching Ob and Florian altars 😂 - Wounded
@@ColorsAreACrutch yooo that’s sick!
On the game 2 play by Spurling. I think an important factor to remember is he's playing against x player, y player and Wounded Satellite on Kinnan. I'd probably try to kneecap the well known consistent top cut player as soon as an opportunity presents itself. It's a compliment as frustrating as it may be.
Every player in that pod was an accomplished well respected player
I absolutely believe that. However, there are a few people in cEDH that will draw extra attention based on reputation alone. It's a badge of honor that players like you, Waffle, Ian and so on.
Was a great time to seeing you at the Fishbowl, wounded! Hope I'll one day show up to a top 16 to prove Florian to ya!
I hope you know I am actually one of biggest Florian believers in the cedh community, I’ll just never think it’s better than Ob
without any more context I probably would have focused the kinnan in top16 too. TOR is like necropotence where if you cant beat them on CA you have to try and beat them on life. And if your one ring was at five you've already drawn 15 cards off it
My thoughts exactly. If 3 of the other players use their life totals and they don’t want to swing at each other…. they’re going to swing at you. Also in my local meta, everyone hates Kinnan players cause they either have a busted opening and win quick or they whiff and whiff and counterspell and counterspell until the game goes to time. So in top16, I can definitely understand wanting to punch the UG control player
Max P just angry that Dargo/Sidar is a top tier deck and Florian isn’t ;)
Needs a basic land slot pls n ty (justice for clam chowder)
also ardenn tana is heat. Hipster Stax is fire.
Keep up the great work guys!
Biggest consideration on the Massacre is…does Talion player expect Kinnan to fight over the Massacre, giving Blue Farm at least 2+ cards? The obvious answer is yes 😅 (don’t boost the player who’s winning, save it for Tymna)
I don't like the ddb, I think it's highly nepotistic and a lot of the decklists, generally, are complacent when it comes to updating with the metashifts; additionally their understanding of how a lot of the "non-meta" decks (such as my darling Rocco) work is outrageously poor.
Where do I find vods for his games?
i was listening to lemora's cards top new player list, and decided ob nix sounded fun. Went to the DDB to try to find it and it wasn't on there - well timed, i'll check out edh top 16 instead.
Just in time for the weekend 😎
Frankly, I supported the DDB a ton and still serve as a reviewer for the DDB, but after this last update my faith has been shaken in it. Having the disconnect between the reviews and the manager decisions not only felt like a big middle finger to you but also to the review team.
Yep, 100% at this point the Florian thing has become a meme. But the disrespect to the reviewers is kind of shocking. -Max P
Old Stickfingers DDB clout farmer here. I believe Florian should 100% on the DDB. #SticksOutForFlorian
I've played this game for over 25 years. I have never built a deck from anyone else's list. The joy of the gaming is solving the puzzle your own way, like nobody else is, and that's the entire appeal of EDH to me. Being able to do it in cEDH is an even harder puzzle and I live for it.
I approached cedh the same way and got smashed lol. I eventually started looking at lists to see what they do and now i use what i have to to keep up. Then throw some spice in it lol. Here lately ive been throwin god pharoahs statue and channel countermagic. Its been lovely to use niche stuff.
@@Chris-e1w6n totally get that. I just refuse to take no for an answer and keep building new ideas. Some better than others, definitrly getting stronger over time.
@@ReyaadawnMTG niche cards and brewers advantage are where its at for home brewing. Doing things most players arent prepared for. My brother attacks your mana and that really messes up cedh players. He also was on morph cards before they caught on recently. We test new stuff but i take proven decks to a tourney. Have fun brewing!!
#DDBSucks
Wouldn’t the dork need haste for the Hullbreaker line since you bounce it? Am I missing something?
Cast amber -> target elf with HBH trigger.
Tap amber for GG, cast elf for G, target amber with HBH trigger.
Net + 1G.
Do this a billion times until you can cast the elf using your floating every time instead of tapping amber.
Continue loop but tap amber for blue instead and cast elf using some of your floating G mana.
You never tap the elf.
Ahhhhh I see!! Even more busted than I thought. Thanks man.
@@chunkymonkey428 No problem :)
Alright, here's my personal experience and issues with the database:
I'm primarily a Sisay player. There's 4 Sisay lists on the database. 3 of them are relatively up to date even if two of them aren't really typical Sisay decks (the Pod and the Stax lists are atypical but have gotten some top 16s on occasion).
However, and I don't want to put any hate on Rebell Son, she's a fun creator, but her Sisay list hasn't been updated in 4 months. She's admitted on the Sisay Discord that she doesn't have time to play Sisay to make changes. She's been playing 60 card formats to gain some experience from them which is fine, but if you're playing 60 card formats you're not staying up to date with the current cEDH meta. And on top of that, the last major change she made 4 months ago was removing a bunch of cards she had added in that have not been played in pretty much any tournament Sisay list ever (Orim's Chant, Cursed Mirror, Machine God's Effigy, Pithing Needle, Lightning Greaves?).
And before that, the list hadn't been updated in months. Several people reached out to the database asking them to remove Rebell's Sisay list because it didn't reflect the Sisay lists being played at all and was clearly being neglected. And yet nothing was done.
Meanwhile, I know at least two different 5C "Goodstuff" Sisay lists, one of which was Clam Chowder, have been submitted to the database, and rejected.
So we have actual work and innovation into new archetypes being done, and that doesn't make the list, but outdated versions of the deck remain on the database. At this point the only good the database is doing is hosting a link to the Sisay Discord, where you actually get experienced players like Malcolm and Baneslayer who can give advice and there's actually up to date lists.
I heard fish bowl was a mess and the judges didn't know much, Ex. them saying at the beginning if you show a card to another player everyone gets to see that cards. Also someone accidently put a top deck tutor into their hand as well as the classic missed triggers that are may ability's.
I havent trusted the database since i discovered cedh. Just a ton of gatekeeping. Some great creators but overall id rather go to the creators direct then use that site.
Ending was sooooo weak. Also that manglehorn that you finessed away was my buddy’s.
😂😂😂 That's a rip.
@@sorensinsanity4411 ending of the tournament was so weak. My refusal to do ties is what killed me.
@@untilthewheelsfalloff1751 I agree with Wounded, they shouldn't give out victory points if you make top "x" but don't win. I understand playing to a draw but where's the competitive spirit in "cEDH" if people are messing with the rules like that.
@@sorensinsanity4411 he got out, played by a better player who shut him down
It speaks to the grade A bs that Ob Nix did in fact get returned to the DDB, but it took a whole day of arguing, outrage, and bullying to make it happen. Piss poor performance on their part. #justiceforflorian
Why does it feel like every commander's community, discord server, and content creator all has similar or even the exact same kind of story with the DDB? I've been trying to say for almost two years now that we need to move beyond that walled garden of a website already. Cedh players still strive to be on their when it feels like their relevancy has waned for a very long time now.
Only two people i know have mastered kinnan..... Tyler from p2w and wounded
My boy Gaddock Teeg isn't on the Database so yeah i dont trust it! ❤❤❤
New players need references. Only cedh database isn't the best reference anymore and is being replaced by better ones.
Hey now wounded! Thats mean we still have 1 hyper annoying person who wont give up 2 color sisay(it sucks) cough* jonas cough*
I have been summoned.😂
Also, who are you and why do you say I'm hyper annoying? I don't recognize your name.
Dang. Kinda rude to call someone you don’t personally know hyper annoying, and doing it in public too
The database is obsolete since short off 3 years. That's what you get when you can't keep up with a shifting meta and complement with a lot of emotional decisions regarding its inclusions, and which lists do make the cut. How many of those decklists haven't been updated in a year? When perception takes priority over data and especially real, unbiased, passion, you don't have a reference for your followers you have suggestions to fall behind. It's an edh database, it's not, decisevely, 'competitive' both in its essence and in its actuation.
It needs to be known you got out played by a deck that you help put on the map and if the other two hadn’t been dumb, you would’ve lost
You clearly have personal animus against the cEDH DDB for personal reasons and perceived slights.
You can deflect and claim its for the betterment of the DDB and "community", but it appears to be personal animosity.
It was a hit piece segment that dovetailed into advertisement for your own resources. Petty and unnecessary schoolyard sniping.
Good podcast overall. Keep up the good work.
Edhtop16 kinda superseded the ddb
@@hungryguitarstudent No doubt. Top16 is what I use to determine alot of things.
My opinion is that devoting time to Twitter beef and Tally-keeping grudges is not useful.
@@garrettshouler9348 Regardless of their personnal experiences, 99.99% of the arguments they gave in this video can be factually verified, namely via consulting meta and conversion numbers on edhtop16. They actually have good points demonstrating that the ddb is irrelevant and misleading. As a new player, I've actually been initially mislead by the ddb. I have no clue about Twitter beefs 🤷♂
You literally play the tournament to get to the top 4 for a chance to play and win. What’s the point of not playing? Make it make sense. And please don’t say anything about points lol
Na I completely understand splitting top 4 and going home early.
I've been in situations like that and everyone's just exhausted and wants to go home.
I do agree though that the people who draw at the end shouldn't be considered as champions. They just made top 4 split and should get top 4 points or whatever.
I remember when the Malcolm Discord submitted Malcolm Tana to the database for the first time and it immediately got a few tops & wins just for it to get rejected but Cinestra & Twice's Okun Zndrsplt was able to get in 😐
I think Malcolm Tana eventually got in on the second try.