For me, I like/need the cadence sensor and throttle combination. I've had a serious motorcycle injury so can't necessarily use one of my legs to it's fullest. Consequently I sometimes need to use the throttle to start off from a standstill, sometimes I ghost pedal in order to get the motor assist as my leg won't do what I want it to do. A torque sensor would leave me stranded sometimes. Some days my legs work as they are supposed to and then it's a great day!! My ebike has been a blessing.
@@JERRYPRO121 the Aventon Level 2 is a torque with throttle, thats what i have now and i love it. I have a bad ankle so peddleing tends to hurt after a while, with this setup i can get all the benefits of biking and when my ankle starts hurting i can just throttle until i am able to peddle again
I was going to say, I thought I saw a couple of manufacturers advertising both in one bike!! This seems like it would be the best combo to me (as long as it had a throttle)..... Kyle, you dropped the ball not addressing the combo pack... I would not be surprised to see more bikes going this way.
So you mentioned that people should ride the bike first to see the difference so they can make an intelligent decision that suits them best. I'm in South Florida does anybody know if there's a place anywhere in Florida where I can go and ride a few bikes before buying one?
Thanks for the great channel! In 350+ miles of hilly local roads, I've gone from factory settings where zero position = no power, and with a crank throttle, to zero position = 25% power and a thumb throttle because of very steep hills in my area. When the transition from steep downgrade to steep upgrade is within a few feet, a thumb throttle is key to instant access to full power, regardless of whether it's cadence or torque. It's an awkward moment of discovery that you've stalled and your ebike does indeed weigh 70 pounds as you're absentmindedly falling to the pavement. BTW, don't worry about the fall...it's the stop that hurts. I also installed a dropper seat post, dramatically improving the safety of stopping at intersections. I loved the full leg extension of the fixed position high seat before discovering both my legs had shortened by four inches when I had to steady the stopped ebike.
I had a 750-watt hub drive cadence sensor bike that could go 33 mph with little effort for long stretches. I now have a 1000-watt Bafang Ultra mid-drive torque sensor that can get as high as almost 40 mph but I can’t maintain that speed for long as it is too exhausting . So with just PAS I could potentially cover more ground quicker with my old cadence based 750-watt hub bike, although as stated, the torque sensing 1000-watt mid drive feels more natural. As Kyle mentioned , both have advantages, and while I prefer the torque sensor, I do often miss cruising 33 mph while essentially ghost pedaling.
Great explanation! My wife and I are on our 4th set of e-bikes. The first 3 have been folding with cadence sensors with throttles. We now have Juiced RCS's with a combo Cadence/Torque sensor which are mounted near the rear hub near the motor. So far we love the more natural feel of pedaling these. They also have thumb throttles which we use to start out and to add power going up hills. I have also ridden mountains bikes with mid motors and crank torque sensors. These are extra fun but I still prefer having a throttle on E-bikes.
Cadence sensor with throttle works brilliantly. Use the throttle when starting out from a stop. The delay time of the cadence sensor on my bike has very, very little delay.
Thanks for the video, the last bit was the gold, the Bafang that does it all. I am a throttle user so I have to have it, but when I pedal I would love the more natural feel, definitely better for an actual MTB rather than a casual rider., I am somewhere in the middle. Sounds like cadence will exist on the entry level bikes and is the right choice for those people and the torque sensor exists on the higher end bikes and the right choice for those people, hopefully this video will help those right in the middle where there is some grey area, thanks
I like a cadence sensor with KT torque sensor simulation. Basically, it's power control rather than speed control. But, a full time throttle is a must.
I'm very light and not sure I weigh enough to fully activate my torque sensor. On long flat rides the motor shuts off at 18 mph and it's supposed to get to 20. That said it's super smooth,quiet and climbs stairs confidently. Nimble in rock gardens but you have to time the pedals not to hit. It's the Brose. Power through the chain means wear and expensive parts. If the chain or derailleur breaks you're stuck. It meters power in teaspoons and has incredible range. The Bafang is another beast entirely. At high settings the power comes on like a spastic light switch and will eagerly launch me into trees,rocks and pedestrians. Sometimes the brake cut off fails and it's burning out while I bull wrestle it under control. Almost yanked my arms off when the brakes wore out. But the throttle is magic and makes it so moto you can't stop riding. You can hold the nose up going off little jumps and do power pivots roosting. Also able to power through turns where pedals would hit the ground if you had to pedal. Top speed is 30 plus but you're dumping energy in buckets and have half the range. All that power eats chains and sprockets. The power doesn't seem as hooked up and tractable but skittery. It's exciting but more exhausting than the smooth Brose. Bafang is living at the pitch that is near madness. Also started way back on the cheap China 1000 watt hub drive and it is amazing. Truly a magic carpet ride with shifting, pedals,chain all not required. Break a chain and keep on going. Parts never wear out. Accelerate from a stop to eye watering seamlessly. Burn out into thrust like an automatic transmission. I ignored the rear gears and used the three front for granny,cruise and overdrive. Sadly it had lots of unsprung weight and got flats sometimes several times a day. I think it blew from speed alone at times and the tube was shredded. Changing flats with the weight,wires and brakes destroyed my back and I never went back. Someday I will and do it tubeless but that had just come out and I didn't want to spend the money. I spent more in tubes and patches. Tubeless rules. My friend had the Sur Ron and I could keep up with the Bafang not with the Brose. He couldn't lift it easily and got stink eye from hikers and horse riders. Never any vibes on the more bike looking rides. They're all good for something in areas the others are weak.
I prefer the cadence because I'm 69 and if I'm too far from home I don't want to have to use a lot of leg power to get home but still get the exercise I need.
I love my Tongsheng mid drive with torque sensor. It also has a throttle for taking off from a complete stop, which is great to save the ol' knees. I transfered the Tongsheng to another build from my recumbemt trike. I think haveing a T.S. set up is better on a two-wheel bike because when I stand up and crank on the handlebars, it really feels great! However haveing switched out my TS kit for a cadence kit I am very disappointed riding my trike now. I bought a bottom bracket torque sensor, and found out later that this systen is not compatable with the controller that came with the Chinese kit.
As a person getting back into biking at the age of 60 after a 25 year absence, the cadence sensor was the best for me. I bought the Aventon Aventure after they dropped the price $500 and I am convinced I bought the right bike for me. Is there a torque sensor in my future? Possibly. But right now I am loving the bike I have.
I know my comment here is a little late on this video but I'm relatively new to e-biking, and dealing with wanting to pedal along with my hub motor only to realize I mostly can even pedal fast enough to add value I now have a question about an obvious short coming of all e-bike controllers and displays. I've recently ordered new front and rear gear sets for my 24 speed mountain bike to allow me to give pedaling value back to my motors energy use. As I researched the gearing ratio options, all knowledgeable bike riders recommend shifting decisions based on your pedaling cadence RPM's. There are even cadence RPM monitors marketed to bikers to assist with shifting decisions. So here's my question, why do none of the e-bike controller displays show cadence RPM? It is very important information that could be displayed, but is totally overlooked.
My next bike will have torque sensor with throttle. I like my RadRover, but I'd like it better with torque sensing. With the stock motor controller, the delay starting off was often a balance issue for me. It is much more ride-able with your motor controller installed, as the delay is hardly noticeable, but still has more power taking off in other bike traffic or people than I feel control with. There are not a lot of level trails around here. Can't wait to get your Bolton Air Forks. Any idea when they will ship to you?
THANKS for this informative video!! So, I just learned about what is ... well... "a little off" about my just unboxed Velotric Discover-1 Ebikes! Don't get me wrong, these are a great value but they do use the cadence type sensors, and as I discovered, it can be DANGEROUS!! What I learned on my first test-drive - uphill on a 1.5 mile climb, is it works great, the levels of assist are definite and I did see that "ghost pedaling" works! Then i stopped to check little things, and on I went. Foot on the pedal, rotate... aaannnnd WOAH!!! The pedal assist was still at 4, and when the cadence sensor said move, it almost went out from under me!! NO LIKEY!! Well, honestly, I think it will just take some getting used to! One other thing I found, these bikes will not move with just the throttle! They need the cadence input, then the throttle will slightly add to that - sort of. May need some tuning... Wish I knew this info!! Next bike will likely be a torque sensing with throttle!
well not moving with throttle isnt a cadence sensor problem.... juiced ripracer for example can use throttle from a dead stop and its cadence based and from the video if u moved the pedal with a torque sensor it will also move pretty quickly but not as fast as cadence...
you can adjust all 9 levels of algorithms , you can ask bafang to program or you can do it at home with a computer and a usb cable. I have 3 torque sensors set up for different riding styles. I think most people would be floored if they rode the sensor that Bafang programed for me, they call it hot rod mode! level 1 takes you to 24mph and level 9 tops you out at 61mph . it really just depends how you program your torque sensor just like an automatic transmission in a car.
Same bike. Same experience. I like that I can set it on 1 or 2 and forget it. I provide all the power normally but when I reach a hill and slow down, the magic begins. However, I am considering the Level 2.0 (torque/hub/throttle) for my next bike. It looks great and rides more easily, like a traditional bike.
In the biking world "ghost pedaling" is when the cranks/pedals rotate on their own when you are walking alongside a bike. Instead, I prefer to call the phenomenon of pedaling on an ebike without adding pressure to the pedals "air pedaling" because "ghost pedaling" already has an established meaning.
Bikes with gummy freewheel cones tend to ghost pedal when bike is wheeled along, I had to put some engine oil onto the freewheel bearings as the chain was almost getting thrown off while coasting
I dont understand why alot of times manufacturers treat torque sensor and throttle as mutually exclusive. Dont get me wrong I love my torque sensing ebike but there are times when it would be nice to just thumb the throttle and go from a stop while I'm getting my feet resettled on the peddles.
I like cadence sensor with torque simulating controller. I dont think i could go without throttle. ') Sometimes after 70miles trip on fat bike i dont feel like cranking anymore.
After many years of motorcycling, I'm looking at my first Ebike. Have learned a ton so far. It will be mid-drive, torque sensor, throttle. But this video showed something new (to me): thumb throttle on left side?! Isn't there such a thing as twist throttle on right, like a motorcycle?
radbikes have a twist throttle on the right. the aventon level 2 I ended up with has a thumb throttle on the left, which i actually prefer because it doesn't interfere with using the shifter.
from what i can see a good option is a bike that can reach max speed with throttle only, that way u don't have to worry about pushing yourself 100% all the time to get to top speed with a torque sensor... so imo if throttle only can get to top speed then just get torque sensor ...if u cant get to top speed throttle only get cadence so u can hit topspeed... I use my bike to get to work so cadence is better seems throttle is limited to 20mph and i have to use pas 5 with pedaling to get to 28mph... i rather not get to work a sweaty mess so cadence is the way to go for me on my current bike... but if i could i would like a bike capable of getting to topspeed throttle only but also having torquesensor for the times i want to workout or conserve battery... i think this is the best all around bike to have.. Topspeed capable with throttle only while also having a torquesensor
I've had a 750watt Bafange mid drive cadence sensing bike. I could go as fast as I wanted, 30mph. But I did not care for it as I got no real exercise riding it, but I did like the mid drive.. Once I rode a torque sensor ebike I decided that was the bike for me. I wish the Magnum with the torque sensor was available before I purchased my current bike. But I do like my Serial 1 Mosh/City, and I saved $1000 during their Black Friday event. While I do like the bike, and think it was worth what I paid. I do not think it's worth the normal MSRP. It really does just feel like you're riding a normal bike, but it just gives you a little assist when you need it. After having both, I would never buy another ebike without a torque sensor. I really do like that little Magnum with the torque sensor.
pity they nowadays still don't have C and T modes in torque sensing ones most of the torque sensors can sense the cadence aswell, so the fact they only give you A or B kinda sucks
So, if the mid drive sprocket rotates backwards. Why do they say it is not compatible with coaster brakes? Seems to me if you push back on the pedals the chain would still lock the brake in the rear hub. What am I missing here? Thanks
On mine unless the motor is kicked in the MPH won’t show which to me doesn’t seen right surely the MPH should always show even if rolling down a bank or am I wrong as only just had it to be honest or does it mean the cadence sensor is knackered, any help would be really appreciated thanks, cool video dude
the one thing i dont like about the cadence sensor is the lag time the power comes on and more importantly off. the lag between you stopping pedaling and when the actual motor stops has caused me to almost crash before. nay way to adjust this? thanks!
Awesome video! I went down the proverbial “rabbit hole” researching e-bikes and I have finally come up with a very simple conclusion: IF you are a cyclist (i.e. carbon fiber Fuji road bike, Specialized Stump Jumper, etc.) then a torque sensing mid-drive is for you. If you are an occasional cyclist (i.e. single speed beach cruiser), a hub-drive with cadence sensor is for you. I am the cyclist, so I bought a Biktrix FS Juggernaut with a 1,000W mid-drive and I got my wife a 500W hub-drive cruiser. Love this channel, BTW. Definitely gonna visit the shop soon since we live in Sacramento. Cheers!
@DASO_MILITIA I did a "range ride" by getting on the bike trail in Old Town Sacramento and rode to Hazel Ave (fish hatchery) and back. I took my charger with me just in case, but didn't need it. It was 22 miles each way for a total of 44 miles round trip (70 km) and I still had 30% battery life (~15 miles) remaining.
I have a smart motion which has both cadence and torque sensor. You can change whilst riding by a double click on a button which means you can work at the pace you want when you want. I am 85 years old and both knees are completely shot but I can still ride 40kms per day.by varying the sensor and the effort required at any time.
Smartmotion is a New Zealand designed brand, only sold in NZ and Australia as far as I know. There is a control built into the display labelled "Power" / "Eco" which actually switches between Cadence sensing (Power) and Torque sensing (Eco). Most torque sensors also transmit a digital cadence signal as well as an analogue torque signal, so if the controller is set up to process both signals, and there is a switch that allows you to choose, you can have either. They use Chinese Dapu motors. I am not aware of another bike brand or another motor type that offers that choice.
@@dennisluz6453 the bike is a SmartMotion all their better bikes have the feature. Designed in New Zealand and assembled there but Made in China or somewhere. The one I have is the X-City which is a step through hard tailed mountain bike, now I think the latest is the Neo but their standard bikes also have the feature.
Torque sensor with throttle seems like the best of both worlds. If you want to relax, the bike can do all the work. If you want to get a workout in, lower the boost and start peddling.
Torque sensor is much more natural to pedal. Feels like bionic legs that amplifies my efforts. You can raise/lower the boost based on your mood. Works great and gives better bike control.
Thanks for the video. This was the best video I’ve seen clearly explaining the difference between cadence and torque sensors. Before this I didn’t truly understand the difference, but now I do.
I like the cadence sensor bike for the overall control I have. I start out with the throttle and adjust PAS and gears as needed, giving me the effort level that suits my 75 year-old legs. The one plus of the torque sensor is on trails where one wants the bike to respond in realtime. The lag of a cadence sensor can be a liability when riding up and down or over roots and rocks.
Ah! Great explanation. I guess while riding uphill in lowest gear..and you just can't push the pedal anymore the cadence sensor would see no demand, that is where the throttle would have to be utilized or..cadence override. Impulse power Scotty.
@@wendygerrish4964 As a matter of fact, Wendy, I ride up two steep hills on my ride to the gym and back. The throttle is very convenient at the steepest point for a quick burst of maximum power. I ride for exercise, so I try to use the minimum PAS most of the time. When you ride the same roads daily, after a while you know what PAS levels and what gears you use for the whole trip. Impulse power is a great idea... for the VERY steepest! We have one such hill where I live.
I also like cadence sensors and I ride trails a lot. A responsive cadence sensor gives me good control and makes getting to the trails a lot easier! I rode a Trek Powerfly (torque sensor Bosch) up to a trailhead and I was exhausted before I even started the trail.
@@erikkpritchard I understand what you're saying. I've had a similar experience here in Nevada City riding up a long (3-4 miles) hill to my favorite trail on a 40nm/250W mid-drive. The bike was great on the trail, but exhausting for this old guy to get to the trail. By comparison, my 24", 70-80nm/750W Bolton has no trouble with the hill, but lags just a bit with the application of power, going from not-pedaling to pedaling. If I wasn't so old, I'd buy a 750W mid-drive to add to my stable.
As an older person, my vote is for cadence sensor!!! With two bad knees and two replacement hips, I'll take the easiest option! However, ebikes had a BIG impact and my ability to get around! I pedal 99% of the time! I got into ebikes because I had given up on bike pedaling Forever! I might even be ready for one of those torque sensors one day!
> *"As an older person, my vote is for cadence sensor"* Hear, Hear! I can participate when I like, and I can _Ghost Pedal_ when I like (which is most of the time). I love having the choice.
I have several bikes but can’t ride them anymore do to Congestive Heart Failure. I understand that E-bikes that help with peddling, can help you slowly get back into shape. Also with a Throttle if you get tired you just stop peddling and let the motor take ver.
It is quite simple: there is a significant divide between older people (and often older people with some physical disability) and younger bike riders who like the challenge of physical activity with torque sensors. The former, I suspect, prefer cadence sensors for obvious reasons and also because they mostly use their bikes for easy, reasonably flat terrain, and when throttle can come in handily when they are tired. Yes, yes, pedaling is good exercise, I acknowledge.. As an older person who has had back surgery I was considering a eBike with hub motor and torque sensor (plus front fork suspension and hydraulic brakes) but now I think that maybe a cadence sensor with throttle may be better for me because of my physical limitations and my preference for riding over paved streets or fine packed sand trails (no gravel or hills). It could also save me $$$ going this route.
The longer I ebike, the more I pedal, FACT! Ebikes are definitely beneficial to older riders. Whenever I get crap from the SPANDEX ARMY, who paid more for their bikes than I did mine, I have to laugh! They mean well. You don’t need spandex and watermelon calfs to enjoy and benefit from biking! At the same time, I’m enjoying it so much I want to make it my primary form of transportation.
I like the cadence sensor, as a older guy that hasn’t ridden in a long time it works for me. I like the throttle and ghost peddling. I still get plenty of exercise…but I also can still make it home without killing myself on some of the hills.
Thanks for this. I bought an Aventon Aventure (one). I didn't get to use it this year so it sat. Next thing I know the Aventon Aventure II (two) is on the market. I had originally felt buyers remorse for now owing an "older" version, without torque sensor, since the new model has it, as I'm sure you know the earlier Aventure has cadence. After viewing this I'm happy with my earlier model since you covered the pro and cons. I feel my riding style, as someone commented, lends it self to the cadence. It's not just a case of one being newer and better as I originally thought.
Just to confuse the subject, my Juiced Bikes HyperScorpion has both a cadence and a torque sensor as well as a throttle. The cadence sensor is always active, but the torque sensor can be turned off in the settings menu. I like riding with both on. It feels good to me to be rewarded for riding as hard as I can.
i should of read the comments before i posted the same thing. nice to see i'm not the only one that still watches new " Ebikes Explained " vids. on a side note - i've mentioned in emails to juicedbikes on making the " scorpion tall seat " able to flip-up and access an enclosed/lockable compartment - maybe Kyle at Bolton EBikes could look into the feasibility of creating and selling this ?
I have a Juiced bike CrossCurrent with both torque and cadence sensors and really like this setup as it feels very natural with a smooth power delivery. It’s a class 3 bike so also has a throttle. A friend has a Santa Cruz mid drive with torque sensor, nice bike, but it can’t keep up with the CrossCurrent as being a class 1 bike it has no assist over 20 mph. I suspect the Santa Cruz would be strong on big hills though, where the extra torque of the mid drive and the low gear potential of the 12 speed cassette would be a big advantage.
I thought I saw a couple of manufacturers advertising both in one bike!! This seems like it would be the best combo to me (as long as it had a throttle)..... Kyle, you dropped the ball not addressing the combo pack... I would not be surprised to see more bikes going this way.
Love this video! Thank you. I have been getting into eBikes lately and have ridden a torque sensor (Specialized) bike once, but only own cadence sensor bikes. I really would love to see a low priced, high quality torque sensor bike.
I have ridden e bikes but don't own one, but my idea is when I buy one, I want a torque sensor bike with no throttle. I ride a regular bike now and all I want an e-bike for is to help with the hills but if I have a throttle, it might defeat my goal of riding a bike for exercise. I want the assist in direct relation to my effort.
Thank you so much, this video helped me so much as I am planning to get rear hub conversion kit and i was unsure of what each sensor is like. You wouldnt believe how relieved I am now, May Jesus be with you, God bless.
After viewing a lot of UA-cam videos this particular day, 1/18/23, I am very interested in the Aventon Level.2 ebike. Being a Class 2 ebike having the torque sensor with hub drive it still has a throttle, which I feel would be the choice, I would be most happy with having.
On a long gentle hills cadence automatically slows even if you press harder on pedals, your slower cadence is sending signal to motor you want less power assistance, as slower cadence and lower power assist will continue to slow your forward progress. On a hill bike motor understands your decreasing the cadence meaning that you want less power assist. Torque sensing will see you are trying to increase speed by pressing harder on pedals, and motor will increase the power assist letting you continue climbing the long gentle incline... if you have a steep short hill stand up and apply pressure to pedal on a non electric bicycle it lets you climb the hill. With torque sensing standing up will increase power assist provided by the motor unlike the cadence sensing that is reducing power assist because the signal to motor with less cadence is you want less power assistance. Unless you have no undulations in elevation, I can not understand why any eBike rider would want less power on hills from cadence sensing....
For commuting, for someone getting from A to B, I much prefer the cadence sensors from everything said. Some day I might feel like shit, and don't want to pedal hard. I want to reserve this decision for me. But because I am in EU, most such bikes are illegal anyway.
Very helpful, but you don't address the safety issues between the two, particularly in heavier bikes, as well as what it means to "feel more natural." Personally, I think most heavy high powered hub drive cadence sensor bikes are dangerous. Most have a serious lag and an unsteady thrust forward when the power is kicking in. I had a bit of an emergency in transitioning the bike out of a rut. I had to slow way down and then I needed a little power to make the transition. When I started to peddle, the rear drive cadence sensor (on low power) delayed then kicked in more power than I needed, causing the bike to surge forward and crash. This was a well made Ebike that I was renting. I never felt like I could get into a groove where I felt like I was peddling the bike. ( I guess that is what you call ghost peddling). I own a specialized Ebike and a Benno Boost, both with mid drive motors and lots of power than can power up a hill, but yes you have to work like a real bike. I feel like I have strong legs and no lag and no surge. I think another thing your review should include is that not all cadence sensors or torque sensors are the same, so its not just a matter of selecting a torque sensor or a cadence sensor, but selecting the right brand of either. The sophisticated computer motors and how those computers operate ( like Bosch and like the Specialized Motors) play a big part on making the bike feel totally like a bike and not like a moped with pedals. I sometimes feel like I could use a throttle but it too dangerous for me personally. That said, Averton recently came out with a beautiful cargo bike that has a good torque sensor with a rear hub motor, as has Specialized and both of them look a lot more safe and both can come with a throttle. I am 65 and I feel like its easier for me to control a mid drive/torque sensor bike, but if I needed a throttle I would get a bike that also had a well made torque sensor.
I debated a mid drive Bafang (cadence) or Tonsheng(torque). I normally ride a full suspension mtb and wanted to still have a good workout riding. I choose the Tonsheng (torque) and super happy with my choice. I still get a great workout and go twice (ok maybe 40%) faster And clean many hills and features that I couldn't on my regular ( I like phrase 'acoustic') mtb. I also agree with others that describe a torque sensor to feel more like you have bionic legs rather than just having the motor do the work for you. On my new bike I still feel like I am riding a bike and not a scooter.
a torque sensor Bafang Ultra would give you 1000-1500W and 160Nm with reliability and quality. Bafang hub motors combined with a torque sensor would give you also a lot of power. Yet, you chose the cheapest? solution. Don't know. But probably the least weighing solution at least.
For elderly riders, a throttle is a must, and this is why: connective tissues, tendons and ligaments, and cartilage menisci become much more fragile to high stress (think high torque), so it's not uncommon in benign and completely unexpected situations for something to suddenly "give" (or start hurting severely), and in bicycle riding this could be knees or or leg muscles. Usually if one relaxes for a moment and adjusts the vectoring of the force on the thing in the "give" state, it returns to normal, and ordinary use and pressure can then be applied. The highest likelihood of a sudden pause like that in riding will occur almost exclusively when at a dead stop and subsequent start when forces on the rider's legs and joints are the highest. Stops and starts, unsurprisingly, are also typically at traffic intersections. A bicyclist wants to accelerate smoothly and ride in the most predictable and straightforward way in a traffic intersection for obvious reasons: it's dangerous to suddenly pause or wobble in the middle of an intersection as one is making a turn or even going straight. I don't care how much AI is layered onto a torque or cadence sensing motor: it cannot ever predict the unpredictable. But usually the elderly person themselves can SENSE when these events are about to happen. That forewarning can then be used by the elderly person to force the ebike, via the throttle, to take on more of the load when that person knows they must suddenly reduce the load or torque in the middle of an intersection to adjust their legs or body. So based on your description of torque vs cadence sensing bikes, cadence sensing bikes with a throttle makes vastly more sense for elderly riders. If a bike is torque sensing, it will have no clue why someone is reducing the torque on a crank, whether it is deliberate or due to sudden unexpected leg discomfort. Of course, if a throttle is added to torque sensing bike, which as you say is not common now, then that could potentially be as good or even better than a cadence bike with a throttle. The key however, for elderly use, IMO, is the throttle. The lack of a throttle on torque sensing bike is an absolute deal breaker for many if not most elderly.
Really enjoyed it. You explained it so well that without a bike I’d know what to expect from each type of ebike. I bought my first e-bike (Giant mid-motor torque sensor) after months of research. Now after months of riding, it does feel like I’m doing most of the work, sometimes wondering where the heck the motor is! After watching your video, I fully understand now. The advantage though -that I intended and preferred- being that I’m still getting my cardio every time I ride. Thank you very much
Chiming in from south western Canada here. I can see the argument for either. I'm just beginning to learn the concept of these pedal assist assemblies. Mine is cadence. I think I do prefer that despite not experiencing the difference. As a man in his mid 50s and not being hugely athletic, I like the safety net of having the throttle if I need it and not having to necessarily work hard to activate the full potential of the motor. I'll even touch the throttle off the line just enough to get me into pedaling mode.
Probably the best explanation of the differences I’ve seen. I’m on a cadence, hub, with throttle and 8 gears. 100 miles a week to work rain or shine on mostly level roads. I use the throttle every time from a stop. I call it my launch gear. Makes for a smooth transition. Doesn’t take much of a hill or wind before ghosting has become a big irritant. I need to test drive a torque machine. Sometimes I want the exercise, but usually I want a 20 minute ride to work without sweating and just enjoy the time on 2 wheels.
My first e-bike was a fat tire bike with a cadence sensor. It was a blast. I just got a new road e-bike with a torque sensor. I absolutely love it!!! So smooth!
One thing I found very disconcerting with cadence sensor bikes is that when you try to gradually ease off on the pedaling, knowing you have to stop soon, it tends to think you still want power (because the cranks are still spinning). So instead of cruising at a steady speed you find yourself accelerating. I'm sure there are strategies to avoid this, but it's a noticeable part of how torque sensor systems feel more natural (more effort = more power) versus cadence (power provided by the motor is somewhat disconnected from what you're doing as a rider).
This is something you will get used to. I pull my brake lever when this happens and it stops acceleration immediately. You might try that. Just pulling the lever enough to disengage the motor.
I drive rear hub 750W, cadence sensor, twist throttle. 7gear shimano, pretty typical. They all work so seamlessly for me that I can adjust my effort level as quickly as I need, I can't see a need for torque sensor, although when first looking at bikes I thought I would really want a torque sensor. I guess if I was an avid heavy duty mountain biker I might want the torque sensor for instant response. Other than that, perhaps if I was a serious road biker, competitive level , torque sensor would probably also be nice. But for everyday commuting, fun, all around exercise traveling, even light trails, hills , gravel, snow, mixed conditions my cadence sensor with twist throttle is a perfect fit. When I need to cross busy roads quickly, just twist that throttle and get across quick! And then let go and let cadence do the work. My only complaint would be my gearing which doesn't allow my pedaling to help beyond about 22 MPH, just ghost pedaling at that point. But since most of my riding is done between 15-20MPH it is not an issue.
I have a 1000w hub and 21 gears, That extra large 3rd sprocket on the front defiantly helps at higher speed, But even then, When I go past 25 I start losing momentum. That's where the throttle comes into play though, It will take me to my top speed of 30-32 mph (depending on voltage level), plus the fact I use it anyway when cruising, So it doesn't matter to me.
if you were to be able to ride a bike blind, could you tell the difference between a mid-drive and a hub motor if both had a torque sensor? assuming you're not tackling any challenging hills.
I have been researching this topic for some time now and this is by far the best explanation I have found. Although I have not ridden a torque sensor e-bike yet, I’m pretty sure my current cadence bike is still going to be my preference. The reason is my age and declining strength. I’m 76 and just don’t have the stamina I once did. That being said, I think the cadence sensor is likely the best option for me. Again, thanks for an excellent explanation!
Thanks for the video.. definitely a subject that needs clarification (especially when you have ignorant or dishonest people trying to sell cadence sensing bikes as having a Torque sensor... which I have seen). My personal preference is Torque sensing plus a throttle, I like the feeling of being rewarded for my extra effort, and I like being able to ride technical singletrack without sudden surges when the power kicks in. I am only in my 60s and have a bit of fitness left.. but I can see that in 10 yrs time I might be thinking that cadence is the way to go if my strength and fitness fade.
I have a mid drive + torque sensor with a throttle. Tongsheng 500 Watts. I've beaten the sh*t out of this fat bike for 5 years now. Broken the pedal shaft ($15 CAD) twice, but I love the beast. The throttle alone will not have the bike going very fast but it is a good assist when starting at a green light if you are still on a too high gear. Or when walking beside the bike going up a steep hill, then you can gently depress the throttle to have the bike going up by itself.
I added a diy hub drive kit to my old mountain bike, it has a cadence sensor, and a throttle. I have found that the 'power levels' are actually more like 'aiming speeds', as in speeds you might set a cruise control to. So I tend to find myself pedalling at or near those 5 different speeds - I can go faster or slower by pedaling harder or lighter, but I tend to end up at 5 particular speeds. I have ridden a torque sensor bike too, and with that, it doesn't care about speeds (below its speed limit) it just feels like you have bionic legs at ANY speed. It took me a little while to get used to how to control the cadence sensor bike, off road for eg, I have to turn the power setting down otherwise the motor is trying to get me to too high a speed for the terrain ! You just don't get this with a torque sensor, based on my riding of only one sample, I admit. It may be that my particular make of cadence sensor motor (Yose) has aiming speeds, other makes may do it differently, and so have a different feel when riding.
I can confirm that different hub motors manage power differently. On my Radrover Bafang PAS meant power level, not speed. As expected a low PAS simply delivered less power, and higher PAS gave higher power. I now have a Linghui hub (Paselec GS9) and it behaves very differently; basically PAS modulates power to manage speed. So I get nearly full power until I reach the target PAS speed, or as you said "aiming speed". PAS basically sets cruise speed.
I used to really enjoy your channel Simon, i dropped off after i found out you where not a real professor in your comment section one day, i felt like i had been conned... you don't even need that title, your very good at what you do and are a nice guy to hold your own! Anyway all the best👍
@@rossg9363 Actually I am a professor having taught in higher education, I just don't have a pHD. I ry and make it clear I am a Science filmmaker.....with an E-Bike....happy cycling and hope to see you back on my channel soon. Simon
@@ProfSimonHolland thanks Simon it's been nearly 2 years from my last view on your channel, i feel better from your response, ill come back over and become a subscriber again :) happy ebike riding to you to! My Cadence sensor on my bafang bbshd 52v kicks in that hard i swear my rear frame twists.
I hit a patch of stones at a corner intersection on a busy road. I lost control and lurched into the street. I am lucky that the cars stopped before running me over. My high power cadence sensor bike propelled me at the speed setting of the pedal assist. I believe a torque sensor would give me greater control over my speed. I will switch to torque assist as soon as I can pay the price for it.
I reprogrammed my bafang that only detects by pedaling to give power based on the number settings. I can max at 20% help at 2 of 9 for instance without getting full power to a certain speed.
The only e bike I have riden so far is a torque sensing no throttle bike. While it was a blast to ride I'm thinking that adding a throttle to that bike would be a plus. Have to ride some more bikes before deciding which way to go.
\\\New Subscriber/// Excellent explanation video. thank you. Question: I have a Specialised turbo vado 5.0, is there any way to have it converted to have throttle control, or is this a no no?
Years ago I built my Cannondale hard tail into Ebike by using the Bafang mid drive from Luna. Last year I bought a Rad Mini with a hub drive. I have since installed your controller on the Rad and the power is great, but I miss the power delivery from the torque sensing system. Here's my question… Is there any way I can install a torque sensor into my rad? Having worked in bike shop in a previous life in pretty handy with the tools.
I noticed my new bike has torque sensor and ,yes takes off without pedaling. my first E Bike has cadence sensor So pedal and then you go assisted. Still getting used to torque sensor.
It's really difficult to find a bike with a torque sensor most companies don't say what sensor it's using and the times I do find a bike using it it's only 250w motor
From my experience using both types of sensors, you missed a couple of cons. Cadence sensored motors require motor interrupters because of the delay when you stop pedaling. If you don't have the interrupters you'll get nasty crunchy gear shifts. More connection points means more potential for trouble points. Your video made it seem like a LOT more effort is required for a torque sensored motor to deliver it's maximum power. That hasn't been my experience. The torque sensored motors are also more efficient in using your battery power whereas the cadence motors are an ON or OFF power delivery.
Good video well explained, i have cadence with throttle option, in fairness i have got used to it now, my sis has similar bike but hers has torque sensor….yes its smoother but was £500 more
Euphree now has a torque sensor, and it’s a better quality build than Aventon. Denagos will have torque sensors on all models in 2024, not just the fat tire one. Their cadence sensors are still very smooth and natural. Aventon is going to make the dumb move of going to mid drives, which is why they are giving away their e-bikes at absurdly low prices now in late 2023. Prices on aventons will be going up, up,up. They lost their shirt this year and are screwing all of their dealers in the process.
Which is better? A Cadence or Torque Sensor?
It depends upon the person and the situation. I prefer a torque sensor. It makes me feel like I have bionic legs!
For me, I like/need the cadence sensor and throttle combination. I've had a serious motorcycle injury so can't necessarily use one of my legs to it's fullest. Consequently I sometimes need to use the throttle to start off from a standstill, sometimes I ghost pedal in order to get the motor assist as my leg won't do what I want it to do. A torque sensor would leave me stranded sometimes. Some days my legs work as they are supposed to and then it's a great day!! My ebike has been a blessing.
Got a cadence sensor bike without throttle and for slow speeds this isn't great... That said I'm happy
For me torque
@@michaelhorton6166 I also enjoy the delusional feeling I get from a torque sensor especially for climbing hills :)
Cadence sensor and throttle for me ~ sometimes I want the bike to do all the work and sometimes I don't ~ best of both worlds
So a torque sensor type wont have a throttle?
@@MrRahimhosein ~ no, I think torque sensor types can have throttles too.
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@@JERRYPRO121 the Aventon Level 2 is a torque with throttle, thats what i have now and i love it. I have a bad ankle so peddleing tends to hurt after a while, with this setup i can get all the benefits of biking and when my ankle starts hurting i can just throttle until i am able to peddle again
Kyle, the Biktrix you sold me has both Torque and Cadence sensors! Plus a throttle. I love it.
I was going to say, I thought I saw a couple of manufacturers advertising both in one bike!! This seems like it would be the best combo to me (as long as it had a throttle)..... Kyle, you dropped the ball not addressing the combo pack... I would not be surprised to see more bikes going this way.
So you mentioned that people should ride the bike first to see the difference so they can make an intelligent decision that suits them best. I'm in South Florida does anybody know if there's a place anywhere in Florida where I can go and ride a few bikes before buying one?
Thanks for the great channel!
In 350+ miles of hilly local roads, I've gone from factory settings where zero position = no power, and with a crank throttle, to zero position = 25% power and a thumb throttle because of very steep hills in my area.
When the transition from steep downgrade to steep upgrade is within a few feet, a thumb throttle is key to instant access to full power, regardless of whether it's cadence or torque. It's an awkward moment of discovery that you've stalled and your ebike does indeed weigh 70 pounds as you're absentmindedly falling to the pavement. BTW, don't worry about the fall...it's the stop that hurts.
I also installed a dropper seat post, dramatically improving the safety of stopping at intersections. I loved the full leg extension of the fixed position high seat before discovering both my legs had shortened by four inches when I had to steady the stopped ebike.
I had a 750-watt hub drive cadence sensor bike that could go 33 mph with little effort for long stretches. I now have a 1000-watt Bafang Ultra mid-drive torque sensor that can get as high as almost 40 mph but I can’t maintain that speed for long as it is too exhausting . So with just PAS I could potentially cover more ground quicker with my old cadence based 750-watt hub bike, although as stated, the torque sensing 1000-watt mid drive feels more natural. As Kyle mentioned , both have advantages, and while I prefer the torque sensor, I do often miss cruising 33 mph while essentially ghost pedaling.
Thank you for that. Explains clearly an advantage of a cadence bike under certain conditions, and the fun of ghost pedaling.
what kind of 1000w mid motor do you have of bafang?
Great explanation! My wife and I are on our 4th set of e-bikes. The first 3 have been folding with cadence sensors with throttles. We now have Juiced RCS's with a combo Cadence/Torque sensor which are mounted near the rear hub near the motor. So far we love the more natural feel of pedaling these. They also have thumb throttles which we use to start out and to add power going up hills. I have also ridden mountains bikes with mid motors and crank torque sensors. These are extra fun but I still prefer having a throttle on E-bikes.
You answered nearly all my questions. I understand much much more now. An excellent tutorial. Thanks.
Cadence sensor with throttle works brilliantly. Use the throttle when starting out from a stop. The delay time of the cadence sensor on my bike has very, very little delay.
Best description I've heard of the differences: cadence sensor = you helping the motor, torque sensor = the motor helping you.
Thanks for the video, the last bit was the gold, the Bafang that does it all. I am a throttle user so I have to have it, but when I pedal I would love the more natural feel, definitely better for an actual MTB rather than a casual rider., I am somewhere in the middle. Sounds like cadence will exist on the entry level bikes and is the right choice for those people and the torque sensor exists on the higher end bikes and the right choice for those people, hopefully this video will help those right in the middle where there is some grey area, thanks
I like a cadence sensor with KT torque sensor simulation. Basically, it's power control rather than speed control. But, a full time throttle is a must.
I'm very light and not sure I weigh enough to fully activate my torque sensor. On long flat rides the motor shuts off at 18 mph and it's supposed to get to 20.
That said it's super smooth,quiet and climbs stairs confidently. Nimble in rock gardens but you have to time the pedals not to hit.
It's the Brose.
Power through the chain means wear and expensive parts. If the chain or derailleur breaks you're stuck.
It meters power in teaspoons and has incredible range.
The Bafang is another beast entirely.
At high settings the power comes on like a spastic light switch and will eagerly launch me into trees,rocks and pedestrians.
Sometimes the brake cut off fails and it's burning out while I bull wrestle it under control. Almost yanked my arms off when the brakes wore out.
But the throttle is magic and makes it so moto you can't stop riding. You can hold the nose up going off little jumps and do power pivots roosting. Also able to power through turns where pedals would hit the ground if you had to pedal.
Top speed is 30 plus but you're dumping energy in buckets and have half the range.
All that power eats chains and sprockets.
The power doesn't seem as hooked up and tractable but skittery. It's exciting but more exhausting than the smooth Brose.
Bafang is living at the pitch that is near madness.
Also started way back on the cheap China 1000 watt hub drive and it is amazing.
Truly a magic carpet ride with shifting, pedals,chain all not required. Break a chain and keep on going. Parts never wear out.
Accelerate from a stop to eye watering seamlessly. Burn out into thrust like an automatic transmission.
I ignored the rear gears and used the three front for granny,cruise and overdrive.
Sadly it had lots of unsprung weight and got flats sometimes several times a day.
I think it blew from speed alone at times and the tube was shredded.
Changing flats with the weight,wires and brakes destroyed my back and I never went back. Someday I will and do it tubeless but that had just come out and I didn't want to spend the money. I spent more in tubes and patches. Tubeless rules.
My friend had the Sur Ron and I could keep up with the Bafang not with the Brose.
He couldn't lift it easily and got stink eye from hikers and horse riders.
Never any vibes on the more bike looking rides.
They're all good for something in areas the others are weak.
I prefer the cadence because I'm 69 and if I'm too far from home I don't want to have to use a lot of leg power to get home but still get the exercise I need.
I love my Tongsheng mid drive with torque sensor. It also has a throttle for taking off from a complete stop, which is great to save the ol' knees. I transfered the Tongsheng to another build from my recumbemt trike. I think haveing a T.S. set up is better on a two-wheel bike because when I stand up and crank on the handlebars, it really feels great! However haveing switched out my TS kit for a cadence kit I am very disappointed riding my trike now. I bought a bottom bracket torque sensor, and found out later that this systen is not compatable with the controller that came with the Chinese kit.
As a person getting back into biking at the age of 60 after a 25 year absence, the cadence sensor was the best for me. I bought the Aventon Aventure after they dropped the price $500 and I am convinced I bought the right bike for me. Is there a torque sensor in my future? Possibly. But right now I am loving the bike I have.
I know my comment here is a little late on this video but I'm relatively new to e-biking, and dealing with wanting to pedal along with my hub motor only to realize I mostly can even pedal fast enough to add value I now have a question about an obvious short coming of all e-bike controllers and displays. I've recently ordered new front and rear gear sets for my 24 speed mountain bike to allow me to give pedaling value back to my motors energy use. As I researched the gearing ratio options, all knowledgeable bike riders recommend shifting decisions based on your pedaling cadence RPM's. There are even cadence RPM monitors marketed to bikers to assist with shifting decisions. So here's my question, why do none of the e-bike controller displays show cadence RPM? It is very important information that could be displayed, but is totally overlooked.
Great video. It couldn’t be clearer. Great job.
My next bike will have torque sensor with throttle. I like my RadRover, but I'd like it better with torque sensing. With the stock motor controller, the delay starting off was often a balance issue for me. It is much more ride-able with your motor controller installed, as the delay is hardly noticeable, but still has more power taking off in other bike traffic or people than I feel control with. There are not a lot of level trails around here. Can't wait to get your Bolton Air Forks. Any idea when they will ship to you?
My wife likes the torque sensor because she wants the bike riding sensation. I like just laying on the throttle when I feel like it.
THANKS for this informative video!! So, I just learned about what is ... well... "a little off" about my just unboxed Velotric Discover-1 Ebikes! Don't get me wrong, these are a great value but they do use the cadence type sensors, and as I discovered, it can be DANGEROUS!!
What I learned on my first test-drive - uphill on a 1.5 mile climb, is it works great, the levels of assist are definite and I did see that "ghost pedaling" works! Then i stopped to check little things, and on I went. Foot on the pedal, rotate... aaannnnd WOAH!!! The pedal assist was still at 4, and when the cadence sensor said move, it almost went out from under me!!
NO LIKEY!! Well, honestly, I think it will just take some getting used to!
One other thing I found, these bikes will not move with just the throttle! They need the cadence input, then the throttle will slightly add to that - sort of. May need some tuning...
Wish I knew this info!! Next bike will likely be a torque sensing with throttle!
well not moving with throttle isnt a cadence sensor problem.... juiced ripracer for example can use throttle from a dead stop and its cadence based and from the video if u moved the pedal with a torque sensor it will also move pretty quickly but not as fast as cadence...
Bafang has throttle, torque and cadences sensor in one unit of thier few mid motors so that's best i feel plus a wheel speed sensor
you can adjust all 9 levels of algorithms , you can ask bafang to program or you can do it at home with a computer and a usb cable. I have 3 torque sensors set up for different riding styles. I think most people would be floored if they rode the sensor that Bafang programed for me, they call it hot rod mode! level 1 takes you to 24mph and level 9 tops you out at 61mph .
it really just depends how you program your torque sensor just like an automatic transmission in a car.
I didn’t think Bafang has a torque sensor?
I have the letric XP 2.0 so I can only speak for cadence sensor, took a minute to get used to it, but the more I rode the more I liked it.
Same bike. Same experience. I like that I can set it on 1 or 2 and forget it. I provide all the power normally but when I reach a hill and slow down, the magic begins. However, I am considering the Level 2.0 (torque/hub/throttle) for my next bike. It looks great and rides more easily, like a traditional bike.
In the biking world "ghost pedaling" is when the cranks/pedals rotate on their own when you are walking alongside a bike. Instead, I prefer to call the phenomenon of pedaling on an ebike without adding pressure to the pedals "air pedaling" because "ghost pedaling" already has an established meaning.
Bikes with gummy freewheel cones tend to ghost pedal when bike is wheeled along, I had to put some engine oil onto the freewheel bearings as the chain was almost getting thrown off while coasting
yeah but in the ebike community ghost pedaling is universally understood as what Kyle is describing. Its not going to change.
Remember when we were kids and we all rode single speed BMX… and we never complained… ahh the good old days. 😂😊😅
I dont understand why alot of times manufacturers treat torque sensor and throttle as mutually exclusive. Dont get me wrong I love my torque sensing ebike but there are times when it would be nice to just thumb the throttle and go from a stop while I'm getting my feet resettled on the peddles.
I like cadence sensor with torque simulating controller. I dont think i could go without throttle. ') Sometimes after 70miles trip on fat bike i dont feel like cranking anymore.
After many years of motorcycling, I'm looking at my first Ebike. Have learned a ton so far. It will be mid-drive, torque sensor, throttle. But this video showed something new (to me): thumb throttle on left side?! Isn't there such a thing as twist throttle on right, like a motorcycle?
radbikes have a twist throttle on the right. the aventon level 2 I ended up with has a thumb throttle on the left, which i actually prefer because it doesn't interfere with using the shifter.
from what i can see a good option is a bike that can reach max speed with throttle only, that way u don't have to worry about pushing yourself 100% all the time to get to top speed with a torque sensor... so imo if throttle only can get to top speed then just get torque sensor ...if u cant get to top speed throttle only get cadence so u can hit topspeed... I use my bike to get to work so cadence is better seems throttle is limited to 20mph and i have to use pas 5 with pedaling to get to 28mph... i rather not get to work a sweaty mess so cadence is the way to go for me on my current bike... but if i could i would like a bike capable of getting to topspeed throttle only but also having torquesensor for the times i want to workout or conserve battery... i think this is the best all around bike to have.. Topspeed capable with throttle only while also having a torquesensor
I've had a 750watt Bafange mid drive cadence sensing bike. I could go as fast as I wanted, 30mph. But I did not care for it as I got no real exercise riding it, but I did like the mid drive.. Once I rode a torque sensor ebike I decided that was the bike for me. I wish the Magnum with the torque sensor was available before I purchased my current bike. But I do like my Serial 1 Mosh/City, and I saved $1000 during their Black Friday event. While I do like the bike, and think it was worth what I paid. I do not think it's worth the normal MSRP. It really does just feel like you're riding a normal bike, but it just gives you a little assist when you need it. After having both, I would never buy another ebike without a torque sensor. I really do like that little Magnum with the torque sensor.
Really just comes down to.... are you looking for a bicycle with a motor or are you looking for a scooter with pedals.
Can you switch the side of the cadence sensor? Would it work on either side of the bottom bracket, left or right?
on a cadence sensor when you pedal is your power combined with the motor power. or is it all motor until you out perform the motor then it is all you?
pity they nowadays still don't have C and T modes in torque sensing ones
most of the torque sensors can sense the cadence aswell, so the fact they only give you A or B kinda sucks
Is torque sensor better for exercise?
Some ebikes have both a Cadence and Torque sensor. What is the advantage of that?
Without cadence sensor the bike can start to move just by putting a pressure on the pedal while standstill.
I think the bafang bbs02 feels more natural than bbshd and the average hub systems, my opinion, have not tested the high end torque bikes yet....
I don't like sensors at all. I just use a throttle and staying my biggest gear peddling. Full throttle man
So, if the mid drive sprocket rotates backwards. Why do they say it is not compatible with coaster brakes? Seems to me if you push back on the pedals the chain would still lock the brake in the rear hub. What am I missing here? Thanks
Did you mention the difference between speed limited pas and power limited pas?
On mine unless the motor is kicked in the MPH won’t show which to me doesn’t seen right surely the MPH should always show even if rolling down a bank or am I wrong as only just had it to be honest or does it mean the cadence sensor is knackered, any help would be really appreciated thanks, cool video dude
the one thing i dont like about the cadence sensor is the lag time the power comes on and more importantly off. the lag between you stopping pedaling and when the actual motor stops has caused me to almost crash before. nay way to adjust this? thanks!
That is where a twist throttle comes in. Use it to get quickly off the line and slide right into PAS pedalling
I went with mid drive ,torque sensing , no throttle
Best is a torque sensor with a throttle.
cadence for me 100%
Awesome video! I went down the proverbial “rabbit hole” researching e-bikes and I have finally come up with a very simple conclusion: IF you are a cyclist (i.e. carbon fiber Fuji road bike, Specialized Stump Jumper, etc.) then a torque sensing mid-drive is for you. If you are an occasional cyclist (i.e. single speed beach cruiser), a hub-drive with cadence sensor is for you. I am the cyclist, so I bought a Biktrix FS Juggernaut with a 1,000W mid-drive and I got my wife a 500W hub-drive cruiser.
Love this channel, BTW. Definitely gonna visit the shop soon since we live in Sacramento. Cheers!
@DASO_MILITIA I did a "range ride" by getting on the bike trail in Old Town Sacramento and rode to Hazel Ave (fish hatchery) and back. I took my charger with me just in case, but didn't need it. It was 22 miles each way for a total of 44 miles round trip (70 km) and I still had 30% battery life (~15 miles) remaining.
I have a smart motion which has both cadence and torque sensor. You can change whilst riding by a double click on a button which means you can work at the pace you want when you want. I am 85 years old and both knees are completely shot but I can still ride 40kms per day.by varying the sensor and the effort required at any time.
what kind of engine and what brand is it?
@@timiditta70 Sound like an ION-sytem.
That's a smart system.
Or it can be a BOSCH.
Smartmotion is a New Zealand designed brand, only sold in NZ and Australia as far as I know. There is a control built into the display labelled "Power" / "Eco" which actually switches between Cadence sensing (Power) and Torque sensing (Eco).
Most torque sensors also transmit a digital cadence signal as well as an analogue torque signal, so if the controller is set up to process both signals, and there is a switch that allows you to choose, you can have either.
They use Chinese Dapu motors. I am not aware of another bike brand or another motor type that offers that choice.
Yeah, please give bike brand with those features. Looks like a good compromise for some people
@@dennisluz6453 the bike is a SmartMotion all their better bikes have the feature. Designed in New Zealand and assembled there but Made in China or somewhere. The one I have is the X-City which is a step through hard tailed mountain bike, now I think the latest is the Neo but their standard bikes also have the feature.
I like the cadence sensor because it makes me 60 years younger with the ease and quick pickup from a stop. So much fun 😊
Torque sensor with throttle seems like the best of both worlds. If you want to relax, the bike can do all the work. If you want to get a workout in, lower the boost and start peddling.
Torque sensor is much more natural to pedal. Feels like bionic legs that amplifies my efforts. You can raise/lower the boost based on your mood. Works great and gives better bike control.
Overwhelming consensus. However it also costs more.
It seems to me that cadence is easier and better for seniors. Am I right or wrong ?
Thanks for the video. This was the best video I’ve seen clearly explaining the difference between cadence and torque sensors. Before this I didn’t truly understand the difference, but now I do.
I like the cadence sensor bike for the overall control I have. I start out with the throttle and adjust PAS and gears as needed, giving me the effort level that suits my 75 year-old legs. The one plus of the torque sensor is on trails where one wants the bike to respond in realtime. The lag of a cadence sensor can be a liability when riding up and down or over roots and rocks.
Ah! Great explanation. I guess while riding uphill in lowest gear..and you just can't push the pedal anymore the cadence sensor would see no demand, that is where the throttle would have to be utilized or..cadence override. Impulse power Scotty.
@@wendygerrish4964 As a matter of fact, Wendy, I ride up two steep hills on my ride to the gym and back. The throttle is very convenient at the steepest point for a quick burst of maximum power. I ride for exercise, so I try to use the minimum PAS most of the time. When you ride the same roads daily, after a while you know what PAS levels and what gears you use for the whole trip. Impulse power is a great idea... for the VERY steepest! We have one such hill where I live.
Sounds like my driveway. Thanks.
I also like cadence sensors and I ride trails a lot. A responsive cadence sensor gives me good control and makes getting to the trails a lot easier! I rode a Trek Powerfly (torque sensor Bosch) up to a trailhead and I was exhausted before I even started the trail.
@@erikkpritchard I understand what you're saying. I've had a similar experience here in Nevada City riding up a long (3-4 miles) hill to my favorite trail on a 40nm/250W mid-drive. The bike was great on the trail, but exhausting for this old guy to get to the trail. By comparison, my 24", 70-80nm/750W Bolton has no trouble with the hill, but lags just a bit with the application of power, going from not-pedaling to pedaling. If I wasn't so old, I'd buy a 750W mid-drive to add to my stable.
As an older person, my vote is for cadence sensor!!! With two bad knees and two replacement hips, I'll take the easiest option! However, ebikes had a BIG impact and my ability to get around! I pedal 99% of the time! I got into ebikes because I had given up on bike pedaling Forever! I might even be ready for one of those torque sensors one day!
> *"As an older person, my vote is for cadence sensor"*
Hear, Hear! I can participate when I like, and I can _Ghost Pedal_ when I like (which is most of the time). I love having the choice.
I have several bikes but can’t ride them anymore do to Congestive Heart Failure. I understand that E-bikes that help with peddling, can help you slowly get back into shape. Also with a Throttle if you get tired you just stop peddling and let the motor take ver.
It is quite simple: there is a significant divide between older people (and often older people with some physical disability) and younger bike riders who like the challenge of physical activity with torque sensors. The former, I suspect, prefer cadence sensors for obvious reasons and also because they mostly use their bikes for easy, reasonably flat terrain, and when throttle can come in handily when they are tired. Yes, yes, pedaling is good exercise, I acknowledge..
As an older person who has had back surgery I was considering a eBike with hub motor and torque sensor (plus front fork suspension and hydraulic brakes) but now I think that maybe a cadence sensor with throttle may be better for me because of my physical limitations and my preference for riding over paved streets or fine packed sand trails (no gravel or hills). It could also save me $$$ going this route.
The longer I ebike, the more I pedal, FACT! Ebikes are definitely beneficial to older riders. Whenever I get crap from the SPANDEX ARMY, who paid more for their bikes than I did mine, I have to laugh! They mean well. You don’t need spandex and watermelon calfs to enjoy and benefit from biking! At the same time, I’m enjoying it so much I want to make it my primary form of transportation.
I like the cadence sensor, as a older guy that hasn’t ridden in a long time it works for me. I like the throttle and ghost peddling. I still get plenty of exercise…but I also can still make it home without killing myself on some of the hills.
Thanks for this. I bought an Aventon Aventure (one). I didn't get to use it this year so it sat. Next thing I know the Aventon Aventure II (two) is on the market. I had originally felt buyers remorse for now owing an "older" version, without torque sensor, since the new model has it, as I'm sure you know the earlier Aventure has cadence. After viewing this I'm happy with my earlier model since you covered the pro and cons. I feel my riding style, as someone commented, lends it self to the cadence. It's not just a case of one being newer and better as I originally thought.
Just to confuse the subject, my Juiced Bikes HyperScorpion has both a cadence and a torque sensor as well as a throttle. The cadence sensor is always active, but the torque sensor can be turned off in the settings menu. I like riding with both on. It feels good to me to be rewarded for riding as hard as I can.
As does my 3 year old Juiced Crosscurrent.
i should of read the comments before i posted the same thing.
nice to see i'm not the only one that still watches new " Ebikes Explained " vids.
on a side note - i've mentioned in emails to juicedbikes on making the " scorpion tall seat " able to flip-up and access an enclosed/lockable compartment - maybe Kyle at Bolton EBikes could look into the feasibility of creating and selling this ?
Good idea, Tom.
I have a Juiced bike CrossCurrent with both torque and cadence sensors and really like this setup as it feels very natural with a smooth power delivery. It’s a class 3 bike so also has a throttle. A friend has a Santa Cruz mid drive with torque sensor, nice bike, but it can’t keep up with the CrossCurrent as being a class 1 bike it has no assist over 20 mph. I suspect the Santa Cruz would be strong on big hills though, where the extra torque of the mid drive and the low gear potential of the 12 speed cassette would be a big advantage.
Level 3
For Seniors or those of us who might get a little tired before heading home, Cadence sensor is the best way to go. Extra power when you need it.
I thought I saw a couple of manufacturers advertising both in one bike!! This seems like it would be the best combo to me (as long as it had a throttle)..... Kyle, you dropped the ball not addressing the combo pack... I would not be surprised to see more bikes going this way.
It’s really dangerous when you stop to wait walking light on.
If not holding brake tight, your bike moves instantly with torque sensor
Love this video! Thank you. I have been getting into eBikes lately and have ridden a torque sensor (Specialized) bike once, but only own cadence sensor bikes. I really would love to see a low priced, high quality torque sensor bike.
I have ridden e bikes but don't own one, but my idea is when I buy one, I want a torque sensor bike with no throttle. I ride a regular bike now and all I want an e-bike for is to help with the hills but if I have a throttle, it might defeat my goal of riding a bike for exercise. I want the assist in direct relation to my effort.
Torque sensor and throttle helps you escape accidents with people and cars here in San Francisco!
Thank you so much, this video helped me so much as I am planning to get rear hub conversion kit and i was unsure of what each sensor is like. You wouldnt believe how relieved I am now, May Jesus be with you, God bless.
After viewing a lot of UA-cam videos this particular day, 1/18/23, I am very interested in the Aventon Level.2 ebike. Being a Class 2 ebike having the torque sensor with hub drive it still has a throttle, which I feel would be the choice, I would be most happy with having.
On a long gentle hills cadence automatically slows even if you press harder on pedals, your slower cadence is sending signal to motor you want less power assistance, as slower cadence and lower power assist will continue to slow your forward progress. On a hill bike motor understands your decreasing the cadence meaning that you want less power assist. Torque sensing will see you are trying to increase speed by pressing harder on pedals, and motor will increase the power assist letting you continue climbing the long gentle incline... if you have a steep short hill stand up and apply pressure to pedal on a non electric bicycle it lets you climb the hill. With torque sensing standing up will increase power assist provided by the motor unlike the cadence sensing that is reducing power assist because the signal to motor with less cadence is you want less power assistance. Unless you have no undulations in elevation, I can not understand why any eBike rider would want less power on hills from cadence sensing....
I had a hub motor with a cadence sensor and my new bike is a mid drive with a torque sensor with a throttle. I prefer the new bike setup.
What bike did you get?
For commuting, for someone getting from A to B, I much prefer the cadence sensors from everything said. Some day I might feel like shit, and don't want to pedal hard. I want to reserve this decision for me.
But because I am in EU, most such bikes are illegal anyway.
Very helpful, but you don't address the safety issues between the two, particularly in heavier bikes, as well as what it means to "feel more natural." Personally, I think most heavy high powered hub drive cadence sensor bikes are dangerous. Most have a serious lag and an unsteady thrust forward when the power is kicking in. I had a bit of an emergency in transitioning the bike out of a rut. I had to slow way down and then I needed a little power to make the transition. When I started to peddle, the rear drive cadence sensor (on low power) delayed then kicked in more power than I needed, causing the bike to surge forward and crash. This was a well made Ebike that I was renting. I never felt like I could get into a groove where I felt like I was peddling the bike. ( I guess that is what you call ghost peddling). I own a specialized Ebike and a Benno Boost, both with mid drive motors and lots of power than can power up a hill, but yes you have to work like a real bike. I feel like I have strong legs and no lag and no surge. I think another thing your review should include is that not all cadence sensors or torque sensors are the same, so its not just a matter of selecting a torque sensor or a cadence sensor, but selecting the right brand of either. The sophisticated computer motors and how those computers operate ( like Bosch and like the Specialized Motors) play a big part on making the bike feel totally like a bike and not like a moped with pedals. I sometimes feel like I could use a throttle but it too dangerous for me personally. That said, Averton recently came out with a beautiful cargo bike that has a good torque sensor with a rear hub motor, as has Specialized and both of them look a lot more safe and both can come with a throttle. I am 65 and I feel like its easier for me to control a mid drive/torque sensor bike, but if I needed a throttle I would get a bike that also had a well made torque sensor.
I debated a mid drive Bafang (cadence) or Tonsheng(torque). I normally ride a full suspension mtb and wanted to still have a good workout riding. I choose the Tonsheng (torque) and super happy with my choice. I still get a great workout and go twice (ok maybe 40%) faster And clean many hills and features that I couldn't on my regular ( I like phrase 'acoustic') mtb. I also agree with others that describe a torque sensor to feel more like you have bionic legs rather than just having the motor do the work for you. On my new bike I still feel like I am riding a bike and not a scooter.
a torque sensor Bafang Ultra would give you 1000-1500W and 160Nm with reliability and quality. Bafang hub motors combined with a torque sensor would give you also a lot of power. Yet, you chose the cheapest? solution. Don't know. But probably the least weighing solution at least.
For elderly riders, a throttle is a must, and this is why: connective tissues, tendons and ligaments, and cartilage menisci become much more fragile to high stress (think high torque), so it's not uncommon in benign and completely unexpected situations for something to suddenly "give" (or start hurting severely), and in bicycle riding this could be knees or or leg muscles. Usually if one relaxes for a moment and adjusts the vectoring of the force on the thing in the "give" state, it returns to normal, and ordinary use and pressure can then be applied. The highest likelihood of a sudden pause like that in riding will occur almost exclusively when at a dead stop and subsequent start when forces on the rider's legs and joints are the highest. Stops and starts, unsurprisingly, are also typically at traffic intersections. A bicyclist wants to accelerate smoothly and ride in the most predictable and straightforward way in a traffic intersection for obvious reasons: it's dangerous to suddenly pause or wobble in the middle of an intersection as one is making a turn or even going straight. I don't care how much AI is layered onto a torque or cadence sensing motor: it cannot ever predict the unpredictable. But usually the elderly person themselves can SENSE when these events are about to happen. That forewarning can then be used by the elderly person to force the ebike, via the throttle, to take on more of the load when that person knows they must suddenly reduce the load or torque in the middle of an intersection to adjust their legs or body.
So based on your description of torque vs cadence sensing bikes, cadence sensing bikes with a throttle makes vastly more sense for elderly riders. If a bike is torque sensing, it will have no clue why someone is reducing the torque on a crank, whether it is deliberate or due to sudden unexpected leg discomfort.
Of course, if a throttle is added to torque sensing bike, which as you say is not common now, then that could potentially be as good or even better than a cadence bike with a throttle. The key however, for elderly use, IMO, is the throttle. The lack of a throttle on torque sensing bike is an absolute deal breaker for many if not most elderly.
Really enjoyed it. You explained it so well that without a bike I’d know what to expect from each type of ebike. I bought my first e-bike (Giant mid-motor torque sensor) after months of research. Now after months of riding, it does feel like I’m doing most of the work, sometimes wondering where the heck the motor is! After watching your video, I fully understand now. The advantage though -that I intended and preferred- being that I’m still getting my cardio every time I ride. Thank you very much
Chiming in from south western Canada here. I can see the argument for either. I'm just beginning to learn the concept of these pedal assist assemblies. Mine is cadence. I think I do prefer that despite not experiencing the difference. As a man in his mid 50s and not being hugely athletic, I like the safety net of having the throttle if I need it and not having to necessarily work hard to activate the full potential of the motor. I'll even touch the throttle off the line just enough to get me into pedaling mode.
i have two Ebike's with cadence sensor ; Torque sensors are beter , in order to have a beter control of of your bike , it's handle beter ( higher thec
My Lectric XPremium mid has tork sensor with throttle.
Probably the best explanation of the differences I’ve seen. I’m on a cadence, hub, with throttle and 8 gears. 100 miles a week to work rain or shine on mostly level roads. I use the throttle every time from a stop. I call it my launch gear. Makes for a smooth transition. Doesn’t take much of a hill or wind before ghosting has become a big irritant. I need to test drive a torque machine. Sometimes I want the exercise, but usually I want a 20 minute ride to work without sweating and just enjoy the time on 2 wheels.
im getting one with a torque sensor, i still want to be able to put in some work
I have both, and like torque sensing with a throttle.
My first e-bike was a fat tire bike with a cadence sensor. It was a blast. I just got a new road e-bike with a torque sensor. I absolutely love it!!! So smooth!
One thing I found very disconcerting with cadence sensor bikes is that when you try to gradually ease off on the pedaling, knowing you have to stop soon, it tends to think you still want power (because the cranks are still spinning). So instead of cruising at a steady speed you find yourself accelerating. I'm sure there are strategies to avoid this, but it's a noticeable part of how torque sensor systems feel more natural (more effort = more power) versus cadence (power provided by the motor is somewhat disconnected from what you're doing as a rider).
This is something you will get used to. I pull my brake lever when this happens and it stops acceleration immediately. You might try that. Just pulling the lever enough to disengage the motor.
I drive rear hub 750W, cadence sensor, twist throttle. 7gear shimano, pretty typical. They all work so seamlessly for me that I can adjust my effort level as quickly as I need, I can't see a need for torque sensor, although when first looking at bikes I thought I would really want a torque sensor. I guess if I was an avid heavy duty mountain biker I might want the torque sensor for instant response. Other than that, perhaps if I was a serious road biker, competitive level , torque sensor would probably also be nice. But for everyday commuting, fun, all around exercise traveling, even light trails, hills , gravel, snow, mixed conditions my cadence sensor with twist throttle is a perfect fit. When I need to cross busy roads quickly, just twist that throttle and get across quick! And then let go and let cadence do the work. My only complaint would be my gearing which doesn't allow my pedaling to help beyond about 22 MPH, just ghost pedaling at that point. But since most of my riding is done between 15-20MPH it is not an issue.
I have a 1000w hub and 21 gears, That extra large 3rd sprocket on the front defiantly helps at higher speed, But even then, When I go past 25 I start losing momentum. That's where the throttle comes into play though, It will take me to my top speed of 30-32 mph (depending on voltage level), plus the fact I use it anyway when cruising, So it doesn't matter to me.
Perfectly stated. Cadence with throttle is just the right away for ebikes
if you were to be able to ride a bike blind, could you tell the difference between a mid-drive and a hub motor if both had a torque sensor? assuming you're not tackling any challenging hills.
I have been researching this topic for some time now and this is by far the best explanation I have found.
Although I have not ridden a torque sensor e-bike yet, I’m pretty sure my current cadence bike is still going to be my preference. The reason is my age and declining strength. I’m 76 and just don’t have the stamina I once did. That being said, I think the cadence sensor is likely the best option for me.
Again, thanks for an excellent explanation!
Thanks for the video.. definitely a subject that needs clarification (especially when you have ignorant or dishonest people trying to sell cadence sensing bikes as having a Torque sensor... which I have seen).
My personal preference is Torque sensing plus a throttle, I like the feeling of being rewarded for my extra effort, and I like being able to ride technical singletrack without sudden surges when the power kicks in.
I am only in my 60s and have a bit of fitness left.. but I can see that in 10 yrs time I might be thinking that cadence is the way to go if my strength and fitness fade.
I have a mid drive + torque sensor with a throttle. Tongsheng 500 Watts. I've beaten the sh*t out of this fat bike for 5 years now. Broken the pedal shaft ($15 CAD) twice, but I love the beast. The throttle alone will not have the bike going very fast but it is a good assist when starting at a green light if you are still on a too high gear. Or when walking beside the bike going up a steep hill, then you can gently depress the throttle to have the bike going up by itself.
Another great video by Kyle. Thanks young man.
I added a diy hub drive kit to my old mountain bike, it has a cadence sensor, and a throttle.
I have found that the 'power levels' are actually more like 'aiming speeds', as in speeds you might set a cruise control to. So I tend to find myself pedalling at or near those 5 different speeds - I can go faster or slower by pedaling harder or lighter, but I tend to end up at 5 particular speeds. I have ridden a torque sensor bike too, and with that, it doesn't care about speeds (below its speed limit) it just feels like you have bionic legs at ANY speed. It took me a little while to get used to how to control the cadence sensor bike, off road for eg, I have to turn the power setting down otherwise the motor is trying to get me to too high a speed for the terrain !
You just don't get this with a torque sensor, based on my riding of only one sample, I admit.
It may be that my particular make of cadence sensor motor (Yose) has aiming speeds, other makes may do it differently, and so have a different feel when riding.
I can confirm that different hub motors manage power differently. On my Radrover Bafang PAS meant power level, not speed. As expected a low PAS simply delivered less power, and higher PAS gave higher power. I now have a Linghui hub (Paselec GS9) and it behaves very differently; basically PAS modulates power to manage speed. So I get nearly full power until I reach the target PAS speed, or as you said "aiming speed". PAS basically sets cruise speed.
good description... i find cadence sensor kicks in as soon as a magnet passes the sensor....on gravel it can throw you off.
I used to really enjoy your channel Simon, i dropped off after i found out you where not a real professor in your comment section one day, i felt like i had been conned... you don't even need that title, your very good at what you do and are a nice guy to hold your own! Anyway all the best👍
@@rossg9363 Actually I am a professor having taught in higher education, I just don't have a pHD. I ry and make it clear I am a Science filmmaker.....with an E-Bike....happy cycling and hope to see you back on my channel soon. Simon
@@ProfSimonHolland thanks Simon it's been nearly 2 years from my last view on your channel, i feel better from your response, ill come back over and become a subscriber again :) happy ebike riding to you to! My Cadence sensor on my bafang bbshd 52v kicks in that hard i swear my rear frame twists.
I hit a patch of stones at a corner intersection on a busy road. I lost control and lurched into the street. I am lucky that the cars stopped before running me over. My high power cadence sensor bike propelled me at the speed setting of the pedal assist. I believe a torque sensor would give me greater control over my speed. I will switch to torque assist as soon as I can pay the price for it.
You described it very well. I for one like the cadence sensor much better.
I reprogrammed my bafang that only detects by pedaling to give power based on the number settings. I can max at 20% help at 2 of 9 for instance without getting full power to a certain speed.
How do bikes work with both? Like the lectric xpremium
The only e bike I have riden so far is a torque sensing no throttle bike. While it was a blast to ride I'm thinking that adding a throttle to that bike would be a plus. Have to ride some more bikes before deciding which way to go.
\\\New Subscriber/// Excellent explanation video. thank you. Question: I have a Specialised turbo vado 5.0, is there any way to have it converted to have throttle control, or is this a no no?
Years ago I built my Cannondale hard tail into Ebike by using the Bafang mid drive from Luna. Last year I bought a Rad Mini with a hub drive. I have since installed your controller on the Rad and the power is great, but I miss the power delivery from the torque sensing system. Here's my question… Is there any way I can install a torque sensor into my rad? Having worked in bike shop in a previous life in pretty handy with the tools.
I noticed my new bike has torque sensor and ,yes takes off without pedaling. my first E Bike has cadence sensor So pedal and then you go assisted. Still getting used to torque sensor.
It's really difficult to find a bike with a torque sensor most companies don't say what sensor it's using and the times I do find a bike using it it's only 250w motor
From my experience using both types of sensors, you missed a couple of cons. Cadence sensored motors require motor interrupters because of the delay when you stop pedaling. If you don't have the interrupters you'll get nasty crunchy gear shifts. More connection points means more potential for trouble points. Your video made it seem like a LOT more effort is required for a torque sensored motor to deliver it's maximum power. That hasn't been my experience. The torque sensored motors are also more efficient in using your battery power whereas the cadence motors are an ON or OFF power delivery.
Good video well explained, i have cadence with throttle option, in fairness i have got used to it now, my sis has similar bike but hers has torque sensor….yes its smoother but was £500 more
Euphree now has a torque sensor, and it’s a better quality build than Aventon. Denagos will have torque sensors on all models in 2024, not just the fat tire one. Their cadence sensors are still very smooth and natural. Aventon is going to make the dumb move of going to mid drives, which is why they are giving away their e-bikes at absurdly low prices now in late 2023. Prices on aventons will be going up, up,up. They lost their shirt this year and are screwing all of their dealers in the process.
Throttle only with cruise control for the win. Most intentional modulation whether eco-miling or taking off quickly in an intersection.