What an odd coincidence. I just found this channel from the Dave McKean interview. Looking through other uploads I randomly picked this one, never heard of the book, but as a designer was really intrigued by the production. Two hours later, I stopped by the thrift store and there it was at the counter just waiting to be bought!
I hope you enjoy it and that it inspires some ideas about where this approach could be taken and improved upon. It is baffling how they kept the price to $40.
This is very validating for me as I picked this book up about a year ago and only recently got around to reading it and I feel the exact same way. The production is really something marvelous and it's such a bummer that the Story is really REALLY hard to get through. I would really be interested in seeing how this could be applied to the Comics Medium. Seems like something Alan Moore can get his hands dirty with!
Glad I wasn't the only one. I would feel like a dick. I would LOVE to see a comic done like this. I think Chris Ware's Building Stories and Monopgrah are as close as we will get anytime soon.
In The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen: The Black Dossier they played around with format and inserted materials. The narrative was bouncing back and forth between the past and the present IIRC. Essentially a character was reading the Black Dossier as the story unfolded.
@@segapig A vinly album and some 3d glasses, right? I almost nabbed a copy of the deluxe or absolute edition, or something like that, at 2nd and Charles last weekend, but I have really never enjoyed that series and even though it was like half off it was still $50
@@clubgrubbug There was sections mimicking different publications, a Tijuana Bible that was its own insert, prose beat novel section, then the 3d section in the back when the characters go to the blazing world. The Tijuana Bible is the only thing on different paper stock IIRC. I imagine if they had JJ Abrams money they might have done more. I know Moore talked about the vinyl record in an interview, but it was not in the version I had.
I love the strange tangibility and manufacture of the Ship of Theseus Abrahm/Dorst/Straka. Similar to literature with altered reading path would be Landscape Painted with Tea by Milorad Pavic which also plays with reading order, but not quite in the written on the page sort of way. Pavic's production is not as replete as the stuffed in found object documents. Composition No. 1 by Marc Saporta was also interesting from a production standpoint. Isekai Glut by Dr. Bedford Kennedy is the budget version of Ship of Theseus without absolute control of the page and printing process. It uses the footnotes from the editor to manipulate the text.
Doug Dorst is a real person. He was a 3 time Jeopardy champ before becoming published as a writer. I think I liked it a little more but if nothing else S. is certainly worth taking a look at. [Edit: changed 20 time to 3 time Jeopardy champ]
@@kirstgrafx Thanks for sharing that! I felt the same about the interview as I did the book. Haha. "When is this going to be over. Will someone please just tell me how the got all the stuff in the right place in the book and, how did they keep the cover peice to $40?" I guess I really just want an interview with the production team. The fact that this diacussion focused so much on the design process and the Eric and Jen story further solidifies my instinct that no one was particularly committed to the main text in a significant enough way.
@@kirstgrafx "If the Eric and Jen relationship falls apart it is just a gimmick" But... like... bro, if the "original book" is not compelling enough to justify being obsessed over by a grad student it is also just a gimmick. Maybe more so. They didn't seem to see that.
The main issue I found with the book is that there was no real reason to have Eric and Jen’s story line. The mystery is ruined when you find out it’s exactly what was said at the very start. The only think this has going for it is the production quality. A good mystery has clues through out that you piece together it defeats the purpose of a mystery. There is still the bit where they tried to act like the story’s where connected when they were not it felt like an after thought.
I found Eric and Jen's story to be more compelling than the story of The Ship of Theseus, but it unfolded in far too linear and sensible of a way, that was synced with the rest of the reading experience. If people were actually writing back and forth like that the information would get way more jumbled up and out of order. The whole thing wound up making no sense, which is sad, because the idea is so cool. And, yes, thematically, I have no idea what the connection is. Obviously, given the title, the attempt was to make a work themed on concepts of Identity, but not once was anything interesting said on the topic. Empty gimmick with astonishing production. Typical J.J. Abrams. I should have know better. Haha.
Gotta appreciate the effort despite the story not being the best. This being the age of the internet, it's a bit strange they haven't gone for non-linear with the "students' story", people online are capable of figuring out some really obtuse stuff. Still, thanks for the showcase, it's always interesting to see experiments and your thoughts on them, especially cause you review both the experiment, the product, and the quality of the story(and art).
Absolutely in awe of the effort on this one. For sure. The story of Jen and Eric is not totally linear. It is mixed up, but the major beats largely unfold in sequence, or if out of sequence, in a way that is too obviously a tease for some later reveal. Glad the review style works for you! Trying to put all thise years of art class critiques to use!
Thx for this review. Couldn't agree more. The book is only great as object, but the story is boring and weak. It is a little like J. J. Abrams stuff like "Lost", because that had such a boring ending, too.
It seems to be his standard MO. I never watched Lost. Something about the way fans talked about it made me think, "Mmmmmm, I am going to wait until the show ends and see if people still like it." Very glad I had that instinct.
Dragonology by Dr. Ernest Drake and Dugald A. Steer also had cool production values with built in notes, photos, and objects. Again, not the best story reading experience, but one of the better tangible reading experiences exploring found objects back in 2003. They were highly successful I guess. I loved leafing through them for hours at the Barnes & Noble, but I never bought one. There were later Dragonology books, like the Pocket Adventures that had less of the high production value work embedded.
I will have to keep an eye peeled for those. Imagine when we finally get a book that has content to match the production and goodies! That is going to be a bombshell of a project, whatever it is.
@@clubgrubbug It would need to be a collaborative effort. It would take a village of production experts, designers, and a team of writers and illustrators. It would be cool.
@@johnm.withersiv4352 I think a single writer could pull it off. Mark Z. Danielwski with a real budget could get it done, but, shit, he couldn't even finish The Familiar.
Frustrating is right! Ughhhh….just finished this mess and regretted it almost immediately. So much potential but it’s really just a fairly uninteresting mystery with the sub plot of another uninteresting and cheesy somewhat one-sided love affair blossoming between two lit geeks. Uggggghhhh.
There's a joke in here about JJ redoing someone else' work... Also- Damian Hirst's diamond encrusted skull nonsense comes to mind. Seeing how Hirst had to buy it himself... I guess $40 isn't so terrible Off topic-- Did I ever mention Graeme Base's "Animalia" to you. Not sure why I feel like I was supposed to tell you about it, or his second one "11th Hour" which was a mystery (did you do a where's waldo vid?)
Funny how he is so huge but no one seems to like what he does. It is that damned genius for the pitch. That skull was swag as fuck, and the older I get the more I respect "sell outs" like Hirst and Koons. "Can I live?" No, you have not. I looked that up and it definitely feels familiar. There is some other "puzzle book" guy a friend exposed me too and I can never remember the name of the dude.
Witch is so frustrating why build it up at all at that point then hide behind the whole “oh you aren’t smart enough to get it.” Like no it was never there
What an odd coincidence. I just found this channel from the Dave McKean interview. Looking through other uploads I randomly picked this one, never heard of the book, but as a designer was really intrigued by the production. Two hours later, I stopped by the thrift store and there it was at the counter just waiting to be bought!
I hope you enjoy it and that it inspires some ideas about where this approach could be taken and improved upon. It is baffling how they kept the price to $40.
Jesus is LORD HE LOVES U PSALM 139 read it
@@alishanoel6358 Oh, Jesus is the way they kept it to $40. Well, goddamn, I best convert and get to making my masterpiece.
You're living the dream. The production value is perhaps more compelling than the story, but as a found object collection it is gorgeous.
This is very validating for me as I picked this book up about a year ago and only recently got around to reading it and I feel the exact same way. The production is really something marvelous and it's such a bummer that the Story is really REALLY hard to get through. I would really be interested in seeing how this could be applied to the Comics Medium. Seems like something Alan Moore can get his hands dirty with!
Glad I wasn't the only one. I would feel like a dick.
I would LOVE to see a comic done like this. I think Chris Ware's Building Stories and Monopgrah are as close as we will get anytime soon.
In The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen: The Black Dossier they played around with format and inserted materials. The narrative was bouncing back and forth between the past and the present IIRC. Essentially a character was reading the Black Dossier as the story unfolded.
@@segapig A vinly album and some 3d glasses, right? I almost nabbed a copy of the deluxe or absolute edition, or something like that, at 2nd and Charles last weekend, but I have really never enjoyed that series and even though it was like half off it was still $50
@@clubgrubbug There was sections mimicking different publications, a Tijuana Bible that was its own insert, prose beat novel section, then the 3d section in the back when the characters go to the blazing world. The Tijuana Bible is the only thing on different paper stock IIRC. I imagine if they had JJ Abrams money they might have done more. I know Moore talked about the vinyl record in an interview, but it was not in the version I had.
@@segapig Damn. Shoulda grabbed it just for that.
I love the strange tangibility and manufacture of the Ship of Theseus Abrahm/Dorst/Straka. Similar to literature with altered reading path would be Landscape Painted with Tea by Milorad Pavic which also plays with reading order, but not quite in the written on the page sort of way. Pavic's production is not as replete as the stuffed in found object documents. Composition No. 1 by Marc Saporta was also interesting from a production standpoint.
Isekai Glut by Dr. Bedford Kennedy is the budget version of Ship of Theseus without absolute control of the page and printing process. It uses the footnotes from the editor to manipulate the text.
Isekai Glut sounds very interesting! Thanks for the reccomendations.
Doug Dorst is a real person. He was a 3 time Jeopardy champ before becoming published as a writer. I think I liked it a little more but if nothing else S. is certainly worth taking a look at. [Edit: changed 20 time to 3 time Jeopardy champ]
That is good to know. I had a hard time finding info about him. Wonder why Abrams chose him?
Absolutely worth owning.
Here's an interview with Doug about writing S. ua-cam.com/video/SZGVPR2Do0k/v-deo.html
@@kirstgrafx Thanks for sharing that!
I felt the same about the interview as I did the book. Haha. "When is this going to be over. Will someone please just tell me how the got all the stuff in the right place in the book and, how did they keep the cover peice to $40?" I guess I really just want an interview with the production team.
The fact that this diacussion focused so much on the design process and the Eric and Jen story further solidifies my instinct that no one was particularly committed to the main text in a significant enough way.
@@kirstgrafx "If the Eric and Jen relationship falls apart it is just a gimmick"
But... like... bro, if the "original book" is not compelling enough to justify being obsessed over by a grad student it is also just a gimmick. Maybe more so. They didn't seem to see that.
@@kirstgrafx Haha. Good he acknowledge that he committed to writing a feasible classic, at least. Haha. Nope,.sorry, Doug. Didn't do it. Hahaha.
The main issue I found with the book is that there was no real reason to have Eric and Jen’s story line. The mystery is ruined when you find out it’s exactly what was said at the very start. The only think this has going for it is the production quality. A good mystery has clues through out that you piece together it defeats the purpose of a mystery. There is still the bit where they tried to act like the story’s where connected when they were not it felt like an after thought.
I found Eric and Jen's story to be more compelling than the story of The Ship of Theseus, but it unfolded in far too linear and sensible of a way, that was synced with the rest of the reading experience. If people were actually writing back and forth like that the information would get way more jumbled up and out of order. The whole thing wound up making no sense, which is sad, because the idea is so cool.
And, yes, thematically, I have no idea what the connection is. Obviously, given the title, the attempt was to make a work themed on concepts of Identity, but not once was anything interesting said on the topic.
Empty gimmick with astonishing production. Typical J.J. Abrams. I should have know better. Haha.
@@clubgrubbug I definitely agree on that
Gotta appreciate the effort despite the story not being the best. This being the age of the internet, it's a bit strange they haven't gone for non-linear with the "students' story", people online are capable of figuring out some really obtuse stuff.
Still, thanks for the showcase, it's always interesting to see experiments and your thoughts on them, especially cause you review both the experiment, the product, and the quality of the story(and art).
Absolutely in awe of the effort on this one. For sure.
The story of Jen and Eric is not totally linear. It is mixed up, but the major beats largely unfold in sequence, or if out of sequence, in a way that is too obviously a tease for some later reveal.
Glad the review style works for you! Trying to put all thise years of art class critiques to use!
@@clubgrubbug Thanks for the clarification on the Jen and Eric story. A bit sad to go through all the effort and fail in this regard.
@@menisc2797 Yup😫
Thx for this review. Couldn't agree more. The book is only great as object, but the story is boring and weak. It is a little like J. J. Abrams stuff like "Lost", because that had such a boring ending, too.
It seems to be his standard MO.
I never watched Lost. Something about the way fans talked about it made me think, "Mmmmmm, I am going to wait until the show ends and see if people still like it." Very glad I had that instinct.
I have one of these, but it has a bunch of strange information on tunnels and stuff from the 1920s and the 1940s
As part of the tipped in materials? -Carson
Dragonology by Dr. Ernest Drake and Dugald A. Steer also had cool production values with built in notes, photos, and objects. Again, not the best story reading experience, but one of the better tangible reading experiences exploring found objects back in 2003. They were highly successful I guess. I loved leafing through them for hours at the Barnes & Noble, but I never bought one. There were later Dragonology books, like the Pocket Adventures that had less of the high production value work embedded.
I will have to keep an eye peeled for those.
Imagine when we finally get a book that has content to match the production and goodies! That is going to be a bombshell of a project, whatever it is.
@@clubgrubbug It would need to be a collaborative effort. It would take a village of production experts, designers, and a team of writers and illustrators. It would be cool.
@@johnm.withersiv4352 I think a single writer could pull it off. Mark Z. Danielwski with a real budget could get it done, but, shit, he couldn't even finish The Familiar.
Frustrating is right! Ughhhh….just finished this mess and regretted it almost immediately. So much potential but it’s really just a fairly uninteresting mystery with the sub plot of another uninteresting and cheesy somewhat one-sided love affair blossoming between two lit geeks. Uggggghhhh.
Yeaup. Sorry to powered through.
There's a joke in here about JJ redoing someone else' work...
Also- Damian Hirst's diamond encrusted skull nonsense comes to mind. Seeing how Hirst had to buy it himself... I guess $40 isn't so terrible
Off topic-- Did I ever mention Graeme Base's "Animalia" to you. Not sure why I feel like I was supposed to tell you about it, or his second one "11th Hour" which was a mystery (did you do a where's waldo vid?)
Funny how he is so huge but no one seems to like what he does. It is that damned genius for the pitch.
That skull was swag as fuck, and the older I get the more I respect "sell outs" like Hirst and Koons. "Can I live?"
No, you have not. I looked that up and it definitely feels familiar. There is some other "puzzle book" guy a friend exposed me too and I can never remember the name of the dude.
Yea, JJ can set things up well but can never pay it off to save his life.
It is a serious problem.
Witch is so frustrating why build it up at all at that point then hide behind the whole “oh you aren’t smart enough to get it.” Like no it was never there