{Split the Veil-Ep.42} The Answer to the Ultimate Question
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- Опубліковано 10 лют 2025
- {TW: Light Talk of Suicide}
Hello and Welcome, Welcome to Split the Veil! Listen to Jordan of Exalted March, and Caitie of Ghildirthalen explore the world of podcasting and Bioware games. In this episode: Caitie and Jordan discuss death and its ramifications in the Mass Effect and Dragon Age franchises. Also a brief discussion about ghosts, Chicago, and risky Google searches.
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All Episodes of this will contain story spoilers for Bioware games and other related media.
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We are also are available on 11 different podcasting sites! Either search for us as 'Split the Veil', or Here is our Anchor site, where you can find links the other 10 podcast libraries!
( anchor.fm/spli... )
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Talk to us!
{Jordan}
-UA-cam: Exalted March, Bioware discussions and lore
( / @exaltedmarch )
-Twitter: @TheExaltedMarch ( / theexaltedmarch )
{Caitie}
-UA-cam: Ghildirthalen, Dragon Age Lore and Theories ( / ghildirthalen )
Twitter: @GhilDirthalen ( / ghildirthalen )
-Reddit: /u/Ghilannain: ( / ghilannain )
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20:04 "did you romance Morrigan or Leliana or Nobody?"
Zevran: Am I a joke to you?
Is it bad that I read that in Zevran's voice?
Okay here’s my thing.
I literally cannot kill the Warden because in every playthrough, no matter what choices I make, I cannot bring myself to abandon my Mabari like that. 🙅🏽♀️
One other death in DA is Connor and/or his mother, if you do that. It can be fairly dramatically effective as far as hitting home how ruthless the wardens can end up being. But that’s only if you don’t know that there’s no reason not to just go to the circle and nothing will get way worse in the meantime.
They should of balanced it out that if you take the days long journey to the Circle Tower (Not to mention how long it takes to save the Mages and go through the Fade...It's CANON the Warden goes through it get outa here with the No Fade Mod!) then the entire village of Redcliffe should die even if you saved them prior or something else as bad or worse. Maybe more Demons are summoned and they leave Redcliffe so we continuously get story's and encounters of the horrors we unintentionally unleash upon innocents because we refused to let only one single person that caused the mess die...That being Isolde because she kept the magic a secret and so Connor never learnt how to control it! A Blood Mage Teacher was one to late and two very weak and three IS a Blood Mage Teacher! Are you trying to make Connor evil?! (Yes I'm the guy that would make the game darker then it already is and then some! I woud "force" the child-killing option as the most moral option to have!)
@@skittykat367 Ruthless...Now that's a good Cold-Blooded Warden...What were you by that way? Please say a Dwarf or Noble or Dalish!
Damm you guys on 11 podcasting sites?
Major props to whoever uploads your podcasts to all of those websites
I know it's late, but no one else explained it. My understanding is that they upload it to Anchor, and Anchor distributes it to the other places automatically.
On the topic of games addressing/not addressing the fact that your player is a murderer, one example I really like is in Assassin's Creed: Odyssey. There's this one Socrates quest where you are rescuing this guy who was arrested. Naturally (as you do for the rest of the game) you just kill the guards to get to him to free him. Turns out this dude is crazy and is going to poison one of the leaders in the area. (Its been a while since I played the game so the questline is a bit fuzzy lmao)
But essentially, you can end up choosing to kill him anyways. Once you talk to Socrates afterwards, there is a really good philosophical discussion about if killing someone is justified to save another killer. I love the quest because Socrates basically breaks the fourth wall and says that you don't even see these guards are people anymore after playing through the games. As the player, you just killed some people who were doing their jobs to save someone who realistically should not have been saved.
Even in the other AC games where you aren't able to kill anyone, its still a factor. Like sure, the game doesn't desync you for killing a bunch of guards, but they really didn't do anything wrong, so that DOES go against the Creed. The games tell you to "stay one's blade from the flesh of the innocent: but you AREN'T doing that. Because in games, people aren't people. They are just simply obstacles in your way.
Its moments like that in games that I love, where it makes you question "wait, am I the bad guy here?"
Its the same in Dragon Age and Mass Effect games, you are a murderer. You say that its all justified, but is it really as justified as you pretend it is?
The first game I ever really played as DAI, and at one point Dorian makes a joke about wondering the countryside and killing people. When I heard that. I was like "oh shit. Wow, the Inquisitor is a murderer." And it is not always justified, but its so casual that characters are literally joking about it.
Even in playthroughs where you are trying to be a good person, you're really not.
Listening to this podcast and getting sonic has prepared me for my crappy commute home! Thanks guys!
You wanna talk about feels for a character death?
Legion, Mass Effect 3. I cry every damn time I see that scene, specifically the line of "I must go to them. I... am sorry. It is the only way."
Mordin's death was up there too. "Had to have been me. Somebody else might've gotten it wrong."
(There's also the bit where if you make the wrong choices in the scene with Legion, Tali will commit suicide right in front of you, so you could lose your best friend and the woman you love in the same scene.)
Does anyone else see a ring of green high heeled boots?
RainAndMusic I have always seen that and I am glad I am not the only one XD
I see a ring of Green Dragons from the neck to the face outwards.
Lol Oh Chicago....as someone from downstate but lived in northern IL...I feel you.
30:00 the other problem I have with Anders, or executing him, is if he is talked to and rival/friended the right way he looks at himself as a martyr and there is no way I am giving him that satisfaction.
Actually, DAI adresses the killing in Josie's personal quest or a talk, I don't remember. The Inquisitor can say that they don't want more blood on their hands specifically. Josie actually talks about that a lot.
I mean the Problem is that whether or not you kill Leliana shes so different by DAI I don't think it would matter if we met someone who knew Leliana at any point before shes with the Warden.
I still cry when I see Thane :( They didn't let me at least try to save him. That's so unfair, I just can't imagine Shepard sitting there and waiting calmly when his/her friend/love will be gone. Bioware, my beloved bastards
I think it's ME1, where you're asked not to harm the colonist on Noveria(?) by using grenade gas that just knocks out the colonists or you can use melee to knock them out.
Also, isn't Jenkins' death kind of like the precursor to the Virmire choice? He and Kaidan are in your team when you go do the Eden Prime mission and Jenkins has to go so Ashley can join you.
I did a play through of inquisition
Where my female warden romances alistair and keeps him as a grey warden to honor Duncan but she sacrifices herself in the end and by inquisition it’s really sad but heartwarming to let alistair sacrifice himself in the fade as if he was making Duncan proud and was ready to meet my warden in the afterlife.
To be honest... I have done several playthroughs of DAO where I let my warden die, for no other reason than to see the ending with the unique goodbye to each warden origin. And to see the final scenes mods add, as well.
I stabbed Anders. I role played us as best buds. We didnt always agree but he murdered a ton of people and he couldnt control Vengeance anymore. I saw it as mercy killing my best friend.
Also Anders told me what he was building and I told him I couldn't do it, I've killed others in the game for just hunting mages and Anders implodes an entire chantry.....dude.
P.s. Damn Ghil, getting philosophical and talking about the problem of identity
First playthrough; sided with and stood up for Anders the whole way... Then he killed everyone. That was a kick in the guts
@@ducky36F It's meant to be. The Dragon Age series has a theme in each game when it comes to the factions and heroes.
DAO has the Grey Wardens a faction that believes in doing WHATEVER IT TAKES to stop the Blight. They're in fact morally grey because they have good intent but some of their actions in the present and past are indeed unethical. You played as a New Warden you didn't learn everything before hand you have to survive and win no matter what...You're literally given the freedom to be as good or evil as you want but at the end of the day you save the world regardless. It shows a morality of suvival at all and any cost but you can decide to keep your "humanity"/"honor" intact if you so wish to take the high path...At the risk you faliure against the Blight. All of the morally "evil" options give you a greater force to take out the Blight. Werewolves(Commit a Racial Massacre out of vengeance), Golems(Enslave undead souls to husks of stone and metal while working with a sociopath/psychopath that killed their entire family for it), Templars (Let the Mages be consumed and turned into Demons)...Are all 100% a better tactical and legitimate army then just Elven Archer, Dwarven Warriors and Untested in Battle Magi. So DAO is 100% morally grey because even the "evil" actions have benefits in regards to stopping the Blight=Saving the world.
DA2 is more about the conflicts of Qun Vs Andrastism and Magi Vs Templars. But it's no longer in a survial situation but a politically and racially heated one. EVERY last person in DA2 you meet is an extremist in their camp. The Arishok for the Qun. Meredith for the Templars. Anders and Orsino for the Mages. That one Sister who's name I forgot and her Templar ally for the Andrastian Chantry. Merrill for Blood Magic. Her Keeper for the Dalish. Bethany for Pro-Loyalist Mages. Carver for Pro-Templar Citizens. Fenris for Anti-Tevinter and Magic existing ETC.
It has us befriend and/or work with all these characters learn about the good in them then tears it down to show their downsides being extremely wrong. They all think they're in the right then they all start killing a ton of people for no good reason or dying over a belief. DA2 theme is about Extremism in every form be it political religious social etc. We as the player are the ONLY character in-game that can say...Wait a second here things don't have to be so black and white you know. Everyone else is either ignorant of logic or doesn't care at all they're becoming literally the very definition of a terrorist/tyrant/racist.
Then DAI follows along with that story but shows all sides as inherently flawed from their ideals to their origins to their very actions from past to present. The Truth of Ameridan is the only proof you need about the hypocrisy of the Chantry and Dalish and Mages and Templars and Seekers of the modern times you need! So you'll trust a Dalish Mage to save the world, lead the Anti-Magical task force, hunt down dragons...But you won't trust a Mage to have political rights to walk outside or talk to their family or vote?! WTF?! He's even a Dalish Elf for fuck sake!
ANYWAYS back to the theme of Inquisition...It's about Hope and Faith but also about Corruption within the ranks of every last major Thedas faction. From the Ancient Elves to the Modern Chant of Light! It's a deep rooted corruption that has lasted about TWO THOUSAND YEARS OF HISTORY! Think about that for a sec.
So you see they play off each other quite well.
Origins set the precedent of a world where even evil deeds can gain a net positive benefit and one where the villain might not twist his mustache but be more alike to the hero then we know. Where morallity is so complex we can have a child killer and assassin and a notorious pigeon serial killer become some of our most trusted supporting HEROES. Even the most morally sound of the group Alistair and Wynne have their moral complications. Alistair being a cold-blooded illogcial need to kill Loghain no matter what. With Wynne this whole thing about being a massive walking hypocrite because you're an undead corpse with a spirit keeping you alive that could turn into a demon at any time in you despite constantly going on about being a ethical morally upstanding makes no deals with demons or monsters mage!
2 set the precedent that most of this characters are in fact ticking time bombs waiting to explode. That Mages might not deserve freedom because of the abosulte evils they're willing to commit to gain it. That Templars AREN'T divine warriors whatsoever they're more akin to fascist with a love of killing and raping a shit ton of lower class citizens/slaves/prisoners because of the actions of the few against them that already won their freedom! That the Qun is looking for any excuse to enslave the rest of Thedas...Or not because they're literally willing to kill hundreds of innocent peoples for a BOOK! That the Andrastian Chantry isn't moral in any regard there's no form of discipline or interrogation of a fanatic in their own organization that literally orchestrated an assassination of a Political Andrastain Official's Son for coversion to another faith and had her lacky have a mob torture to death peaceful non-hostile weaponless Qunari! Nope they don't give a single fuck we'll leave it for others to decide the fate of a literal Andrastian Terrorist! Not to mention how they failed to keep the peace between the Circles and Order despite them both legally having to adhere to the divine and her forces!
Inquisition literally shows us that the corruption came from the highest echelons of the Chantry hierarchy...No matter whether you're Pro or Anti Magic! How the Chantry is obviously wrong about the Origins of the Blight (Yeah it's a pun). How Elves AREN'T fucking victims of "Humanity's Barbaric Wrath" Dalish or Ancient THEY the Elves started the fighting! How Dwarves are absolutely patheitc historcial keepers...TITANS exist either the Dwarven Kingdom covered that up making them pretty fucking evil or...Nope that's pretty much the only logical solution. I won't even go into how the Qun is so extremist they have rogue extremists!
I'm starting to think we just need to let the Darkspawn win because nobody in Thedas is as moral as they've ever claimed. Seriously these people are the jackasses we've been saving?! Anders I should've left yo to rot with that Tempalr bitch in Awakening you ungrateful piece of Mabari dogshit!
My next protag is literally just going evil wants to side with Solas let's just burn this cit...World down to cinders!
Me I've been the opposite it's the little humnaity he showed during our friendship and also the saving of Hawke's brother/sister that has kept me from killing him. I usually just have my Hawke kick him out and then again in the Circle. If the Templars had just executed him or if someone else besides Hawke could decide his fate there I'd let them do it. It's just only my Hawke who personally doesn't want to start killing off old friends no matter what they did if another wants to do it have the fuck at him and feed his corpse to a Mabari pack!
For example my Warden and Inquisitor and whatever the DA4 protagonist gonna be would kill him brutally.
@@flamesofchaos13 ya that humanity is gone now with Vengeance in control like that, Anders for all intents and purposes is an abomination. Solas my spirit bro even agrees abominations should be killed "a murderer is still a murderer". I loved Anders I took him almost everywhere, having him and Isabela (romance) 24/7 made the game better.
@@josephmoore5422 Well Wynne is an abomination and so too are the Seekers as well as plenty of Avvar Augur they're NOT brutal mass murderers or terrorists. As for Anders it's only Vengence at fault if you rival him that's when it takes over. If you fully befriend Anders he straight up says this has nothing to do with Vengeance that it was entirely his decision. Also no matter what the way I see it is Anders the person is to blame for corrupting the good spirit of Justice into Vengeance through Anders own extremism against the Templars Blood Mages and the Chantry. Justice was a being that was meant to help people that's what he was made to do Anders corrupted that into something that kills people. (Given no matter what justification or belief you use Andrastians, Templars even the most corrupt ones and Maleficar are PEOPLE.) We see from Solas himself that it's actually entirely the fault of mortals the creation of demons if mortals simply learned how to control their own mentality/emotions when dealing with spirits or better yet just left them alone in the Fade there'd be no demons...At least not ones harming mortals or entering Thedas.
Anders thoughts turned Justice into Vengeance so no matter whether you befriended or rivaled Anders it's Justice who's the victim and Anders who's the instigator and murderer. I usually befriend him so it doesn't really matter anyway given he accepts his guilt.
30:00 I always end up killing Anders in DA2. 1. He wants to die and become a martyr. 2. He blew up a chantry. Yes, he is our friend, but our friend is going crazy and if we don't kill him what will he do next?
Tamlen from the Dalish origin really messed people up. I keep seeing stuff on Tumblr how people are still not over it. As someone who plays the city elf origin, I'll never forgive Bioware for killing Nelaros but having Nesiara live.
Damn, missed my chance to meet Caitie in Chicago lol
so for the demon baby thing, I romanced morrigan in my canon run so I had an element of trust in her and the idea in my head that id be there. didn't quite work out
When you get justice in awakenings kristofs wife talks to him and he ends up scaring her off i think and justice has all of krisofs memories
100% agree Caitie about the opinion on the Anders death choice. As for you Jordan if it was My Warden he's a professional leader he'd do the Eddard Stark way of judgement without a second thought given he'd see Anders as a Tratior to the Grey Warden Order. But Hawke isn't a judge or soldier or leader in that kind of way I make Hawke out to be the guy people follow but he never intended to lead he's just their friend in his eyes. My Inquisitors are a bit complicated some would of killed Anders if they met him others would of thanked him for what he did. (YES just so you know it's fun and funny to play as a Pro-Libertarian Pro-Blood Magic Pro-Terrorism/Mage Freedom-Fighting Anti-Chantry Anti-Andrastian Anti-Templars Anti-Circles Anti-Loyalist 100% Atheist DALISH Elf Mage Inquisitor that romances Cassandra. Yeah I know.)
Genuine question that's related more to the presentation of the show:
Your big "Split The Veil" logo and the soundbars coming off of it; why doesn't it go all the way around. Like, there's a very clear start and end point at the top of the circle while the soundbars pulsate while audio is playing. Not criticizing, just genuinely curious if you meant to do that, or maybe you just hadn't thought about it or perhaps never noticed it.
MORDIN SOLUS GOD DAMNIT
my only 2 DAO archs: Loving romance with Morrigan and absolute hatred of Apostates so I kicked her out
Halo Reach, the player character dies, no matter what. In fact you have a final battle, that you fight literally fight until you die. And that’s the end of the game, minus some theatrics. And I’m in my 40s... I know Ghost!!! Not a great movie.... although... I love Patrick Swayze... RIP!
I'm only partway through the video but i had to stop to make this comment....You don't like Liara, Caitie!!?? What??