Aren't Merciw's Locus and Talisman of Protection both Talismans? So that WE dragon lord is illegal. Also, Sprites may not be chosen more than once per army, so no double Lamentations. 3 Griffon standards in the Empire list? Judging by the points, it's probably a typo.
Hi, the tvi list looks goodcto me, but I have a few questions : 1. Is it "legal" to take 3x thd Griffon Standard ? 2. In case I have no Griffon ( lack of Model ) for the Captain, would a demi-gryphon do as well ?
I dont hav e the rules in front of me. But a Waywatcher hero that van snipe characters instead of a BSB might be an idea? To just go all in on the denying. Shoot down those wizards that can magic missle your troops! And what about the Spear of Twillight for the lord? You cant get +S? No worries. I always wound on 3+!
that woodelf list wouldn't be useable in a GW tournament because they have a unit cap of 3 for a unit type. And i expect you'll see this rule being added to most people tournaments. I wouldn't want to play against that woodelf list casually either.. thats bad Warhammer in my eyes lol
On Empire vs Beastmen list I choose Empire, solid bricks of infantry. Canons check the chariots, demis check the minos, ten there isn't enough teeth to chew through three solid bricks of infantry. Not enough big infantry blocks taking advantage of the best aspects of the new version which is big infantry units holding ground.
@TheDwellersBelow The absolute MINUTE one of those small Beast units gets trucked by the Demigryphs its going to look like someone just broke on a billiards game.
With the legacies lists out today I'm starting to plan a dark elf list that has a few anvil units with mages and lots of repeater bolt thrower and mobile repeater crossbow output. Hopefully the range will deal with min size unit armies by trying to constantly ping 25% casualty rates and then mages hex weapon skill on more dangerous units. Thinking a mix of dark riders and shades. Or just as many beasts as I can get into a list and see what happens.
@TheDwellersBelow looks like it but I'm waiting on the books to get here to confirm all the character interactions without having to stare at screenshots from youtube! That said I think if not playing herohammer specials is going to be a particularly competitive space for dark elves and I'd probably prefer a solid anvil unit with mage support for debuffs and witch elf support units to threaten flanks and use the shades/dark riders to hunt msu's or ping down flank charge units. Also I'm not sure atm if a shadestar will be able to engage enough to units and generate kill points if msu is being played to justify it.
Great show Guys, watched a load of Old World content over the last few weeks and this was one of the best I've seen. By the way, not everyone in the UK has their preorder yet, still not got mine from GW. Grrr. ..
Thanks lads. Great show. I think these lists were a great first introduction to some archetype ideas that over time get worked and re worked. Will be interesting to listen to list shows like this every day 3 months to see what people find out and compare and contrast.
interesting take on lists, this is the first time ive heard people talking about lists rather than rules and stats. im thinking something stupid like this for my 1st attempt at semi comp sillyness === big hats [1995 pts] Warhammer: The Old World, Chaos Dwarfs, Chaos Dwarfs === ++ Characters [735 pts] ++ Sorcerer-Prophet [495 pts] - Darkforged weapon - Heavy armour - Be a Level 4 Wizard - Bale Taurus - Armour of Destiny - Lore Familiar - Dark Magic Daemonsmith Sorcerer [240 pts] - Hand weapon - Heavy armour - Be a Level 2 Wizard - Lammasu - Talisman of Protection - Daemonology ++ Core Units [528 pts] ++ 10 Infernal Guard [176 pts] - Hailshot blunderbluss - Heavy armour - Shield - Deathmask 10 Infernal Guard [176 pts] - Hailshot blunderbluss - Heavy armour - Shield - Deathmask 10 Infernal Guard [176 pts] - Hailshot blunderbluss - Heavy armour - Shield - Deathmask ++ Special Units [567 pts] ++ 6 Bull Centaur Renders [372 pts] - Hand weapons - Light armour - Shield - Ba'hal - Standard bearer - Musician 3 Bull Centaur Renders [195 pts] - Hand weapons - Light armour - Shield - Ba'hal - Standard bearer - Musician ++ Rare Units [165 pts] ++ 1 Dreadquake Mortar [165 pts] - Dreadquake Mortar - Hand Weapons - Heavy armour --- Created with "Old World Builder" [old-world-builder.com]
Brilliant show fellas. Man, the Orc and Beastmen armies sound fun 😂 Went for a barbarian-themed WoC army myself - lots of Marauders & Chariots (converted from Boar Chariots). Aiming to go to the Old World tournament at WH World in April, super interested to see what lits are around - though i think lack of model availability will mean it'll be a Tomb Kings & Brets heavy event 😅
@@TheDwellersBelow oh man collab would be awesome. I refer you to my agent: Robbo. He's good people! Also Shout out to Chris for that dissertation on Orcness
The Empire force is a true White Dwarf Warhammer army, but I do love the wackiness of the O&G army. We are at the stage where we don’t even know if MSU is viable, haven’t seen any BatReps with it yet. I think one trick pony lists may be the way forward, rather than balanced lists.
Really cool to see some people actually talking about lists. My concern with MSU is most of the reports so far show combat as quite grindy, with glass cannons struggling to blow through blocks like they used to For example in the list below, it reliably averages 28 raised infantry per turn (that can't be dispelled). The spirit hosts will max loose by 5 against a horde unit and with the cart/bsb only loose 2 on average to CR (which can be replaced with 1 necro). How does a combat unit or dragon get out of combat with any of the blocks? all the other points are pretty easy to castle up and deny. If you luck out with spirit leach on the lvl 4, it is cast with +5 and makes the mortis and banshee screams taken at -4 If there turns out to be lots of magic attacks, the hosts are a straight swap with 30 skeletons === Nehek [1986 pts] Warhammer: The Old World, Vampire Counts, Vampire Counts === ++ Characters [852 pts] ++ Master Necromancer [420 pts] - Hand Weapon - Level 4 Wizard - Mortis Engine - Sceptre Of De Noirot - Talisman of Protection - Necromancy Necromantic Acolyte [60 pts] - Hand Weapon - On Foot - Necromancy Necromantic Acolyte [60 pts] - Hand Weapon - On Foot - Necromancy Necromantic Acolyte [60 pts] - Hand Weapon - On Foot - Necromancy Wight Lord [162 pts] - Hand Weapon - Heavy Armor - Shield - Battle Standard Bearer (one per army) - The Accursed Armour - Banner Of The Barrows Tomb Banshee [90 pts] - Hand Weapon ++ Core Units [811 pts] ++ 34 Grave Guard [476 pts] - Great Weapons (replace shields) - Heavy Armor - Seneschal - Standard Bearer - Drakenhof Banner - Musician 20 Zombies [70 pts] - Hand Weapon - Standard Bearer - Musician 20 Zombies [70 pts] - Hand Weapon - Standard Bearer - Musician ++ Special Units [326 pts] ++ 1 Corpse Cart [130 pts] - Hand Weapon (Corpsemaster) - Hand Weapons (Restless Dead) - Warped Tintinnabulation (mutually exclusive with Balefire Brazier) 4 Spirit Hosts [196 pts] - Hand Weapons ++ Rare Units [192 pts] ++ 6 Hexwraiths [192 pts] - Hand Weapons - Great Weapons - Skeletal Hooves (Hand Weapons) - Hellwraith --- Created with "Old World Builder" [old-world-builder.com]
Would be good to see how they played out. Like you say this would be good against an MSU list, but the counter question is still there. How does that list score any points against MSU elves? Can't catch them or shoot them. The dragon also gets to bump out of combat every time it wins and charge (flying) over the unit into a new one if it wishes or just walk away. Think death starts will be harder work to get rid of, but your probably just delay and avoid them.
for sure, that's the challenge with big blocks of infantry. Worth noting it should be pretty doable to catch and kill anything infantry in an elven list: everything within 18 of the mortis is +1 move, both the ethereal units can basically march, the screams are minimum 15" range, and you are guaranteed up to 5 movement spells in selection if you want it. I think the biggest threat is actually magical shooting/missiles. This is all theory though...
Cheers Dwellers folks. Dave's comment on manoeuvring armies around with the larger base sizes is going to be relevant. Heavy infantry only has to bey 4 wide to gain rank bonuses, and is similar to the foot print you would have gotten with 5 before. Your not going to see many units plus 25 . I can see goblins hordes for example running 6 wide 6 deep for 36. Then things get a bit cumbersome. I like the Empire list, and the Beastmen scare me as they have great potential. What I like most is that all the lists have potential, and I think it'll come down to good generalship, and favour of the dice gods. What I like about this rules set. So many things, like skirmishes don't cause panic fleeing through friendly units. The reserve move is back and I used that a lot in 3rd Ed. Magic is more dynamic, things will die. So get your rebasing done folks and get ready to kick @r$e.
![[UA] Eternal Fire проти NAVI | EPL Season 20 Malta](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/chvlsDygrZM/mqdefault.jpg)
Got sent your way by the Squarebased crew. Great show!
Those guys are great. Thanks for watching, glad you enjoyed it!
Dont feel bad, the Americans got left out too with no ETA. Forums are so much better than the unorganized annoying trash that discord is.
Yeah discord can get in the bin
So good to have you back guys! Just love Dave’s ability to get the filthiest list possible 😂
He's a talented individual
I have my wife aquire sand when she takes the kids to the park 😂😂
Stealing sand from playgrounds! Won't somebody please think of the children.
Cover doesn't matter for the dragon + tree man because they're both large targets.
True!
Aren't Merciw's Locus and Talisman of Protection both Talismans? So that WE dragon lord is illegal. Also, Sprites may not be chosen more than once per army, so no double Lamentations.
3 Griffon standards in the Empire list? Judging by the points, it's probably a typo.
That was indeed a typo, and Dave has been suspended for a few weeks for being a cheesy git and getting a few things wrong 🤣
@@TheDwellersBelow Yeah I was hoping to see an interesting Wood Elf list... that was not it lol
The last time I listened to this podcast was in 8th edition. I didn't know you were still around
We weren't for a while to be fair!
Hi, the tvi list looks goodcto me, but I have a few questions : 1. Is it "legal" to take 3x thd Griffon Standard ? 2. In case I have no Griffon ( lack of Model ) for the Captain, would a demi-gryphon do as well ?
Definitely can't have 3 Griffon Standards, that was a typo by Danny on the list he sent through
I'm wondering if you could tell us what percentage complete is Danny's high elf prince on horse?
-98.34%
I dont hav e the rules in front of me. But a Waywatcher hero that van snipe characters instead of a BSB might be an idea? To just go all in on the denying.
Shoot down those wizards that can magic missle your troops!
And what about the Spear of Twillight for the lord? You cant get +S? No worries. I always wound on 3+!
I don't hate either of these things
that woodelf list wouldn't be useable in a GW tournament because they have a unit cap of 3 for a unit type.
And i expect you'll see this rule being added to most people tournaments.
I wouldn't want to play against that woodelf list casually either.. thats bad Warhammer in my eyes lol
Yeah Dave is a bad man. We saw that document from GW, wierd that they didn't just include it in the core rules
On Empire vs Beastmen list I choose Empire, solid bricks of infantry. Canons check the chariots, demis check the minos, ten there isn't enough teeth to chew through three solid bricks of infantry. Not enough big infantry blocks taking advantage of the best aspects of the new version which is big infantry units holding ground.
The Demis are definitely an issue for the beast player
@TheDwellersBelow The absolute MINUTE one of those small Beast units gets trucked by the Demigryphs its going to look like someone just broke on a billiards game.
Amazing video, I love your content every time guys. I must say that the Wood Elves list is awesome!
Thanks so much!
I'm pretty sure sprites for wood elves are either can't be repeated in a list, or are max 1 for the lord?
Yeah had a couple people mention it. Dave has been sacked from the show
With the legacies lists out today I'm starting to plan a dark elf list that has a few anvil units with mages and lots of repeater bolt thrower and mobile repeater crossbow output. Hopefully the range will deal with min size unit armies by trying to constantly ping 25% casualty rates and then mages hex weapon skill on more dangerous units. Thinking a mix of dark riders and shades. Or just as many beasts as I can get into a list and see what happens.
Yeah that sounds like it could work. It's the #shadestar still a thing?
@TheDwellersBelow looks like it but I'm waiting on the books to get here to confirm all the character interactions without having to stare at screenshots from youtube! That said I think if not playing herohammer specials is going to be a particularly competitive space for dark elves and I'd probably prefer a solid anvil unit with mage support for debuffs and witch elf support units to threaten flanks and use the shades/dark riders to hunt msu's or ping down flank charge units. Also I'm not sure atm if a shadestar will be able to engage enough to units and generate kill points if msu is being played to justify it.
Great show Guys, watched a load of Old World content over the last few weeks and this was one of the best I've seen. By the way, not everyone in the UK has their preorder yet, still not got mine from GW. Grrr.
..
Thanks for the love! Yeah not being able to release in time for pre orders is so bad
Gonna rename that Beastmen list "Panic Check Stress Testing"
Relying one those re rolls not gonna lie
Great to see you guys back! Essential listening in 8th. I’m sure it will be the same with TOW
Hope so Les! Thanks for the kind words
Thanks lads. Great show. I think these lists were a great first introduction to some archetype ideas that over time get worked and re worked. Will be interesting to listen to list shows like this every day 3 months to see what people find out and compare and contrast.
Glad you enjoyed it! That's what we were aiming for yeah
14:40 can’t take the same forest spite twice
Cheating git!
That Orc list caused silence across the board - hilarious 😆
interesting take on lists, this is the first time ive heard people talking about lists rather than rules and stats. im thinking something stupid like this for my 1st attempt at semi comp sillyness
===
big hats [1995 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, Chaos Dwarfs, Chaos Dwarfs
===
++ Characters [735 pts] ++
Sorcerer-Prophet [495 pts]
- Darkforged weapon
- Heavy armour
- Be a Level 4 Wizard
- Bale Taurus
- Armour of Destiny
- Lore Familiar
- Dark Magic
Daemonsmith Sorcerer [240 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Heavy armour
- Be a Level 2 Wizard
- Lammasu
- Talisman of Protection
- Daemonology
++ Core Units [528 pts] ++
10 Infernal Guard [176 pts]
- Hailshot blunderbluss
- Heavy armour
- Shield
- Deathmask
10 Infernal Guard [176 pts]
- Hailshot blunderbluss
- Heavy armour
- Shield
- Deathmask
10 Infernal Guard [176 pts]
- Hailshot blunderbluss
- Heavy armour
- Shield
- Deathmask
++ Special Units [567 pts] ++
6 Bull Centaur Renders [372 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Light armour
- Shield
- Ba'hal
- Standard bearer
- Musician
3 Bull Centaur Renders [195 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Light armour
- Shield
- Ba'hal
- Standard bearer
- Musician
++ Rare Units [165 pts] ++
1 Dreadquake Mortar [165 pts]
- Dreadquake Mortar
- Hand Weapons
- Heavy armour
---
Created with "Old World Builder"
[old-world-builder.com]
Looks so small but has some really strong units. Could definitely be a strong list
The wood elf army list vs the beast an list would be interesting. They seem to cancel each other out but in an interesting way.
Suspect it would go pretty badly for the beastmen! Barely any armour against all that shooting
I love this show! I hope you continue to produce contents of TOW!:)
Thanks for the love, that is definitely the plan!
Brilliant show fellas. Man, the Orc and Beastmen armies sound fun 😂 Went for a barbarian-themed WoC army myself - lots of Marauders & Chariots (converted from Boar Chariots). Aiming to go to the Old World tournament at WH World in April, super interested to see what lits are around - though i think lack of model availability will mean it'll be a Tomb Kings & Brets heavy event 😅
I've always wanted to do a marauder heavy WoC army! Lead by a Daemon Prince who is the tribe leader recently ascended.
Especially when Renegade factions aren't allowed!
Daves filthy WEs really making me want to build the old Bret Flying Circus...
Wait until you see the flying circuses Vampires can do!!!
Wonder of that terradon spam from the end of 8th is viable...
@@TheDwellersBelow Need an episode on the least Warhammer-y lists you can play in The Old World
About time fellas! I almost ran out of episodes of my own show to listen to
How is that even possible you guys do so much content 🤣. Also collab sometime?
@@TheDwellersBelow oh man collab would be awesome. I refer you to my agent: Robbo. He's good people! Also Shout out to Chris for that dissertation on Orcness
I'm in
Do I hear a megacast a-brewing?
Please note Forest spirits may only be chosen by the wood elves once per army.
So we have learned!
passing by, giving support
Appreciated!
Agreed with no items on Empire heroes
Yeah unless they assist passively there isn't much point
Waaaaagh!
Waaaaagh!
The Empire force is a true White Dwarf Warhammer army, but I do love the wackiness of the O&G army. We are at the stage where we don’t even know if MSU is viable, haven’t seen any BatReps with it yet. I think one trick pony lists may be the way forward, rather than balanced lists.
Yeah it's always interesting to see how it plays out. Love this time when the format is unsolved and everyone is trying to work it out!
Am I right in thinking if you charge from outside of 6”, lamentation of despair will not effect the terror test?
Sounds about right
Really cool to see some people actually talking about lists.
My concern with MSU is most of the reports so far show combat as quite grindy, with glass cannons struggling to blow through blocks like they used to
For example in the list below, it reliably averages 28 raised infantry per turn (that can't be dispelled). The spirit hosts will max loose by 5 against a horde unit and with the cart/bsb only loose 2 on average to CR (which can be replaced with 1 necro).
How does a combat unit or dragon get out of combat with any of the blocks? all the other points are pretty easy to castle up and deny.
If you luck out with spirit leach on the lvl 4, it is cast with +5 and makes the mortis and banshee screams taken at -4
If there turns out to be lots of magic attacks, the hosts are a straight swap with 30 skeletons
===
Nehek [1986 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, Vampire Counts, Vampire Counts
===
++ Characters [852 pts] ++
Master Necromancer [420 pts]
- Hand Weapon
- Level 4 Wizard
- Mortis Engine
- Sceptre Of De Noirot
- Talisman of Protection
- Necromancy
Necromantic Acolyte [60 pts]
- Hand Weapon
- On Foot
- Necromancy
Necromantic Acolyte [60 pts]
- Hand Weapon
- On Foot
- Necromancy
Necromantic Acolyte [60 pts]
- Hand Weapon
- On Foot
- Necromancy
Wight Lord [162 pts]
- Hand Weapon
- Heavy Armor
- Shield
- Battle Standard Bearer (one per army)
- The Accursed Armour
- Banner Of The Barrows
Tomb Banshee [90 pts]
- Hand Weapon
++ Core Units [811 pts] ++
34 Grave Guard [476 pts]
- Great Weapons (replace shields)
- Heavy Armor
- Seneschal
- Standard Bearer
- Drakenhof Banner
- Musician
20 Zombies [70 pts]
- Hand Weapon
- Standard Bearer
- Musician
20 Zombies [70 pts]
- Hand Weapon
- Standard Bearer
- Musician
++ Special Units [326 pts] ++
1 Corpse Cart [130 pts]
- Hand Weapon (Corpsemaster)
- Hand Weapons (Restless Dead)
- Warped Tintinnabulation (mutually exclusive with Balefire Brazier)
4 Spirit Hosts [196 pts]
- Hand Weapons
++ Rare Units [192 pts] ++
6 Hexwraiths [192 pts]
- Hand Weapons
- Great Weapons
- Skeletal Hooves (Hand Weapons)
- Hellwraith
---
Created with "Old World Builder"
[old-world-builder.com]
Would be good to see how they played out. Like you say this would be good against an MSU list, but the counter question is still there. How does that list score any points against MSU elves? Can't catch them or shoot them. The dragon also gets to bump out of combat every time it wins and charge (flying) over the unit into a new one if it wishes or just walk away. Think death starts will be harder work to get rid of, but your probably just delay and avoid them.
for sure, that's the challenge with big blocks of infantry. Worth noting it should be pretty doable to catch and kill anything infantry in an elven list: everything within 18 of the mortis is +1 move, both the ethereal units can basically march, the screams are minimum 15" range, and you are guaranteed up to 5 movement spells in selection if you want it. I think the biggest threat is actually magical shooting/missiles. This is all theory though...
That's so much raising! Bit worried by the lack of damage output though
Gotta say i love your intro ladies song
How good is it!
Laurels not useful because the Empire captain has 2 attacks
Laurels works on the Griffons attacks not just the captain.
Yeah that was what we based our take on. Agree it would be terrible otherwise
Cheers Dwellers folks. Dave's comment on manoeuvring armies around with the larger base sizes is going to be relevant. Heavy infantry only has to bey 4 wide to gain rank bonuses, and is similar to the foot print you would have gotten with 5 before. Your not going to see many units plus 25 . I can see goblins hordes for example running 6 wide 6 deep for 36. Then things get a bit cumbersome. I like the Empire list, and the Beastmen scare me as they have great potential. What I like most is that all the lists have potential, and I think it'll come down to good generalship, and favour of the dice gods. What I like about this rules set. So many things, like skirmishes don't cause panic fleeing through friendly units. The reserve move is back and I used that a lot in 3rd Ed. Magic is more dynamic, things will die. So get your rebasing done folks and get ready to kick @r$e.
Oh believe me the rebasing is on full swing. 3d printer to brrr