Enjoyed this - I had the same feeling when I won the first 3 of Rob's events with my scream VC list. I tried not to gotcha, but playing non-engaging armies vs 'normal' lists wasn't very fun which contributed to wanting to have a long break from old world. Really liked the candid conversation from Dave about his game 3 as well.
Cheers James, definitely think its time to try a different list for me, going to run a unsubtle ogre one next week at an event in Sheffield to see how that goes instead (Dave)
I think this is the issue - when one person is playing the game as it's written, and the other is playing with a 'normal' list that does what they think Warhammer is 'supposed' to be like. I'm hoping people get on board with the game as it is, and then fewer of those mis-matches will happen, but time will tell.
Love hearing about all the games guys. Just a quick heads up, you can’t cast the same conveyance spell on a unit twice in a turn (page 107), so couldn’t do the triple move on the knights that Chris was talking about
Cheers! Luckily, I don't think I ever actually cast it twice - so good to know (now they just need to stop you from Screaming or Fireballing or Pillaring the same unit twice!)
@@chriscousens111 yea it was amazing so many of the old school players there it legit felt like the old days , so glad the game is back missed everyone ! what dont you like about living there ?
@@TheDwellersBelow well these were my first three games of ToW, so bear that in mind when I didn't get any wins on the board :D Having said that, I felt like they were a tough army for folks and it was purely a player skill issue! I take 17 Infernal Guard with blunderbusses, 15 Black Orcs, 30 hobgoblins, 3 Bull Centaurs, 5 wolf riders the Sorcerer Prophet on Lammasu and the Dreadquake and Rocket Launcher. Only one of the losses was quite heavy - I was up against O&G and the fanatics came out and wiped my Black Orcs off the board, I wasn't even thinking about how to deal with fanatics! The other two games were very close - against an Empire gunline and Vamps with the scream-spam list. They held up really well against the latter list which I know is a problem for some people at the moment, the high leadership across the board (even with all their debuffs) and my Lammasu's beard banner kept their damage manageable. In both cases I was undone by being unable to stop a big flying monster getting into my artillery and those are the VP that cost me. The dreadquake's ability to shut off Swiftstride definitely caught people out - I kept a big unit of knights stuck in a corner for a whole game. But they aren't reliable enough and are too expensive and fragile if you're opponent can get at them. I'd take an Iron Daemon next time! The hobgoblins are amazing and I didn't even take the Overseer's Sigil. With Warband and Horde they just kept drawing or losing combats and refusing to run away. Amazing for their points. Proabably taking another 30 is not a bad shout!
Also big ups to Dave for owning some of that player behaviour lapses. Even without a huge blowup and confrontation, it's still good awareness to realise how you can be a better opponent even if you are smashing someone.
@@TheDwellersBelow We all do, I've unintentionally given off bad vibes with a resting grim face as I think about my turn while mutter the word fuck a lot
Solid talk lads, really loved the open chat around tournament behaviour and couldn't agree more about talking constantly about intentions and game state. We've all been there whether it's dishing out pain or recieving it. I'm a strong believer that we have two types of tournaments back here in Austalia. The two day all ins where the Wood Eld 5 Pillars of fire list is expected and the line lasers are out bickering about movement. Now +10 years on and with small kids the tournament scene I see around Sydney is more the local one day scene where the "event" is actually an excuse to tell your wife you've paid $40 two months ahead of time just to get three games in a row. Returned for the first time to the event scene to 16 players, only a single dragon around, a huge variety of lists, and a Dark Elf winner - everyone had a blast and no one needed a TO call. Hugely off topic now, but am thinking we need to start labelling events as either competitive vs social competitive for the expectations? Side note - where the recording of you guys playing!
I think the best events should cater to both - whether it's a one-day or two-day event - but that expectations about list-building should be outlined in advance. And players should be able to adapt to meet the approach of their opponent part-way. But perhaps that's too optimistic!
Really interesting question I think, having the intended 'vibe' of an event more explicit I think is good, back in 8th this was shown more by things like comp and soft scores that aren't a part of the scene at the moment to the same degree. I think in bigger events as well you get more natural sorting, where if you take a pretty soft list you end up facing them after 2 rounds. I think just saying 'take friendly lists' is a bit harder as a 'friendly' chaos or orc list might look pretty powerful (because the books are full of great options) whereas a 'soft' ogre or empire list might just be a pushover. But I guess that's how we got embroiled in Swedish comp, subjective scores etc last edition. (Dave)
Insert shocked Pikachu face. Take an army that purposely doesn't engage with the opponent that most armies struggle to answer let alone enjoy their time playing against and leads to feel bads, who would have thought?
Yeah I wasn't really surprised people didn't have the best time playing against Wood Elves when the Wood Elves are winning, totally expect that when I am using the army. I think I was disappointed that an opponent felt like I had sprung 'gotcha' moments on them (even if unintentionally) and was giving them a game where they were having to correct me on rules, while I was playing an avoidance/points denial list (Dave).
Depends on what people are hoping to get out of the game. If you're trying to beat all the armies of the old world, that's going to include armies that try to win with shooting and outmanoeuvring. And if everyone is supposed to bring combat infantry blocks, that needs to be discussed before the game or in the event pack - that way everyone is on the same page!
In a competitive setting where the point is to play to win, and Chris clarifies this towards the end indicating everyone was on the same page by running lists designed to win, and in a game where player decisions from list-building to the table-top allow for one to dictate unit interactions in order to skew them in your favour no less, is that really that big a problem?
Would be great to see some more 2 days pop up, will be great to see how the scene plays out that way. A think a few of the dwellers guys are signing up to a few more events in coming months in melb so keen to see some more chat on that!
Enjoyed this - I had the same feeling when I won the first 3 of Rob's events with my scream VC list. I tried not to gotcha, but playing non-engaging armies vs 'normal' lists wasn't very fun which contributed to wanting to have a long break from old world. Really liked the candid conversation from Dave about his game 3 as well.
Cheers James, definitely think its time to try a different list for me, going to run a unsubtle ogre one next week at an event in Sheffield to see how that goes instead (Dave)
Look forward to hearing how the Ogres get on!
I think this is the issue - when one person is playing the game as it's written, and the other is playing with a 'normal' list that does what they think Warhammer is 'supposed' to be like. I'm hoping people get on board with the game as it is, and then fewer of those mis-matches will happen, but time will tell.
@@chriscousens111 Very true
Took the leap and signed up for my first 2-dayer at MOAB in a month's time, have no real expectations and can't wait to play!
@@volcanicpanik yessss! Have a cracking time
cool man im going ill see you there ! what u taking
Love hearing about all the games guys. Just a quick heads up, you can’t cast the same conveyance spell on a unit twice in a turn (page 107), so couldn’t do the triple move on the knights that Chris was talking about
Good catch! Still getting our heads around all the nuances. But good to know for the future.
Cheers! Luckily, I don't think I ever actually cast it twice - so good to know (now they just need to stop you from Screaming or Fireballing or Pillaring the same unit twice!)
Great listening good to hear familiar voices . Bit envious you get to live in the uk. Have fun guys . Gooley
@@adamgooley943 it’s not all sunshine and rainbows, but there’s a lot of Warhammer! Although CA sounded like a great event closer to home?
@@chriscousens111 yea it was amazing so many of the old school players there it legit felt like the old days , so glad the game is back missed everyone ! what dont you like about living there ?
@@adamgooley943 Pay is low, cost of living is high, and Australia has better services (for now). But I'm super lucky to be able to choose!
Just went to my first one day event at Exploding Dice in N. Ireland, took the Chaos Dwarfs, had a great time!
@@BlastastiC Great to hear! That’s the venue out in Bangor?
@@BlastastiC how did the chaos dwarves go? Running a more dwarf list or green skins with task masters?
@@chriscousens111 the same!
@@TheDwellersBelow well these were my first three games of ToW, so bear that in mind when I didn't get any wins on the board :D
Having said that, I felt like they were a tough army for folks and it was purely a player skill issue! I take 17 Infernal Guard with blunderbusses, 15 Black Orcs, 30 hobgoblins, 3 Bull Centaurs, 5 wolf riders the Sorcerer Prophet on Lammasu and the Dreadquake and Rocket Launcher.
Only one of the losses was quite heavy - I was up against O&G and the fanatics came out and wiped my Black Orcs off the board, I wasn't even thinking about how to deal with fanatics!
The other two games were very close - against an Empire gunline and Vamps with the scream-spam list.
They held up really well against the latter list which I know is a problem for some people at the moment, the high leadership across the board (even with all their debuffs) and my Lammasu's beard banner kept their damage manageable.
In both cases I was undone by being unable to stop a big flying monster getting into my artillery and those are the VP that cost me.
The dreadquake's ability to shut off Swiftstride definitely caught people out - I kept a big unit of knights stuck in a corner for a whole game. But they aren't reliable enough and are too expensive and fragile if you're opponent can get at them. I'd take an Iron Daemon next time!
The hobgoblins are amazing and I didn't even take the Overseer's Sigil. With Warband and Horde they just kept drawing or losing combats and refusing to run away. Amazing for their points. Proabably taking another 30 is not a bad shout!
You were a great opponent dave! Just a very rough game for me, and yeah terrible luck.
Fucking wood elves
Ah thanks man, glad I wasn't too much of a shite. Look forward to a more engaging rematch with the ogres one day.
Also big ups to Dave for owning some of that player behaviour lapses. Even without a huge blowup and confrontation, it's still good awareness to realise how you can be a better opponent even if you are smashing someone.
Chers Jamie, definitely got some lessons still to learn eh (Dave)
@@TheDwellersBelow We all do, I've unintentionally given off bad vibes with a resting grim face as I think about my turn while mutter the word fuck a lot
Solid talk lads, really loved the open chat around tournament behaviour and couldn't agree more about talking constantly about intentions and game state. We've all been there whether it's dishing out pain or recieving it. I'm a strong believer that we have two types of tournaments back here in Austalia. The two day all ins where the Wood Eld 5 Pillars of fire list is expected and the line lasers are out bickering about movement. Now +10 years on and with small kids the tournament scene I see around Sydney is more the local one day scene where the "event" is actually an excuse to tell your wife you've paid $40 two months ahead of time just to get three games in a row. Returned for the first time to the event scene to 16 players, only a single dragon around, a huge variety of lists, and a Dark Elf winner - everyone had a blast and no one needed a TO call. Hugely off topic now, but am thinking we need to start labelling events as either competitive vs social competitive for the expectations?
Side note - where the recording of you guys playing!
I think the best events should cater to both - whether it's a one-day or two-day event - but that expectations about list-building should be outlined in advance. And players should be able to adapt to meet the approach of their opponent part-way. But perhaps that's too optimistic!
Really interesting question I think, having the intended 'vibe' of an event more explicit I think is good, back in 8th this was shown more by things like comp and soft scores that aren't a part of the scene at the moment to the same degree. I think in bigger events as well you get more natural sorting, where if you take a pretty soft list you end up facing them after 2 rounds. I think just saying 'take friendly lists' is a bit harder as a 'friendly' chaos or orc list might look pretty powerful (because the books are full of great options) whereas a 'soft' ogre or empire list might just be a pushover. But I guess that's how we got embroiled in Swedish comp, subjective scores etc last edition. (Dave)
Insert shocked Pikachu face. Take an army that purposely doesn't engage with the opponent that most armies struggle to answer let alone enjoy their time playing against and leads to feel bads, who would have thought?
Yeah I wasn't really surprised people didn't have the best time playing against Wood Elves when the Wood Elves are winning, totally expect that when I am using the army. I think I was disappointed that an opponent felt like I had sprung 'gotcha' moments on them (even if unintentionally) and was giving them a game where they were having to correct me on rules, while I was playing an avoidance/points denial list (Dave).
Depends on what people are hoping to get out of the game. If you're trying to beat all the armies of the old world, that's going to include armies that try to win with shooting and outmanoeuvring. And if everyone is supposed to bring combat infantry blocks, that needs to be discussed before the game or in the event pack - that way everyone is on the same page!
In a competitive setting where the point is to play to win, and Chris clarifies this towards the end indicating everyone was on the same page by running lists designed to win, and in a game where player decisions from list-building to the table-top allow for one to dictate unit interactions in order to skew them in your favour no less, is that really that big a problem?
Good podcast
Cheers Nathan
Great chat, gotta get to an event this year at some point 😊
@@warpaintjj Would recommend!
Very keen to get to some two day events. I'm yet to attend an event as a player since have been TOing.
Would be great to see some more 2 days pop up, will be great to see how the scene plays out that way. A think a few of the dwellers guys are signing up to a few more events in coming months in melb so keen to see some more chat on that!
Great stuff
Thanks!
Awesome episode! Do you know if any of your games from that tournament are available to watch back on a recorded stream btw?
Some of Dave's might be on the Square Based Discord, but I don't know if they were recorded or just streamed.
@@chriscousens111cheers will have a goosey