The Wyvern is complete TRASH TIER! | Wyverns Unit Review | 10th Edition
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- Опубліковано 24 січ 2024
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Important note! I know that a list with the Wyvern placed 6th at LVO. That is an amazing result and full respect to the Guard player that achieved that!
However, LVO uses "Player Placed Terrain" which skews games and results in a HUGE way. Playing 40k with a player placed terrain is like playing a totally different game, that is how impactful it is. Now I am not going to get into the debate of player placed Vs terrain maps, but what I will say is the vast majority of tournaments that I attend and that take place in the UK use terrain maps, and thus it is based on that meta that this video is made.
Hope that all makes sense!
One of the coolest looking models in the army too.
Sorry to bother you dude. Is there anywhere I can download tournament maps?
Yup Player Placed Terrain makes Super Heavies good, and lists with them need to get rid of backfield chaff objective holders with no order support.
For that niche case, Wyvern is pretty perfect. Order-less Heavy Weapon Squads and Psions are way worse alternatives.
Something that the wyvern beats the mortar teams at is taking indirect fire from your opponent. Sure, you can put your mortars inside a building, but they're still guardsmen; they die when shot at by basilisks or whirlwinds.
I was once told that threats to troops are high priority targets. The wyvern is the definition of that for swarms of chaff, the basilisk for medium infantry and the manticore for elites
I like their lore. Airburst shells that flay their target with Imperial Aquila's.
My tank fetish cares not for rules.
It's super cool and fluffy
The flachette are AQUILLAS!? That's amazing
6th place list at LVO...
Yeah seems like if you're not running Creed, Wyvern is better.
Player Placed Terrain...
Which is literally the superior way to play the game @@MordianGlory
@@untitled528 A bold statement sir!
Came here to say this
Make the Wyvern 85 points and 4D6 for the stormshard mortar: fixed.
The poor Wyvern.. Truly a shelf tier unit currently. Upside's the same kit make's Hydra's, and at least the wyvern's barrels are great for converting into heavy stubber mounts on Russes.
I think the wyvern isn't an optimal pick, but it's also far from shelf tier, I think a major reason for this is cost, guard have way more options that are just too pricy to effectively field, however at 110 points the wyvern is just affordable enough to see use. I think it's one that makes up its cost in utility, however said utility is situational which is why it's not really a go-to pick. It's all well and good saying "yeah but there's a stratagem that can do the same thing" but consider the fact that it's a strategic ploy (no free cast from creed) and that's using CP which is a pretty valuable resource for guard. Spending the extra 55 points on top of a mortar HWS unit to get twin linked, the extra toughness, wounds, movement, and ability can be worthwhile in the right circumstances. I think it is overcosted now, but before everything indirect got a bump just after the start of the edition a lot of people were eying it up at 90 points. I think it's definitely below average for its cost at the moment but far from the worst unit guard have.
God I I miss 9th edition with the earthshaker carriage batteries. They're so expensive now nearly the same as a basilisk and nowhere near as good.
What if the Wyvern had one additional special rule of which I’d might trade it for the twin-linked rule and change the ranged distance. Change its range to 64” and give it Rapid Fire 2D6.
I wish games workshop would release a death strike and basilisk model with hunter killer missile
It's a classic example of what I'd call "bridesmaid tech" that guard suffers from. The ability is great when your opponents rock up with a problem infantry unit. So you'll get good results until you get near the top of the field. Then you find the enemy lists are rocking must remove threats that don't qualify.
I'm happy to field it though. It looks appropriate, and I can use the rules it has in interesting ways.
Well said!
I have over 8k points of guard...and despite the current state of guard indirect, I'm a guard commander who never forgets the past, is always focusing on the present, and forever is wary of the future, and because of my proclivity to do so, I have (probably) an entire edition to build, research, and eventually paint my 3 wyverns...and one day, when the CSM, Aeldari, Votann or whoever tf else utters the fuckery based words "It's just a guard list" I will deploy the three of them, and the light of the Emperor will rain down in the form of wyvern based mortars, it WILL happen...I just might need oxygen and a wheelchair to pull it off
back in 7th i ran two of them and i actually don't remember them killing much in my mate's mechanicus army
This "trash" unit was featured in the 6th place LVO list, just saying.
I’ve used it a couple times and it’s not as bad as everyone makes it to be.
So glad you did this. I have a wyvern in my basement, the chassis primed and all, but I might convert into the hydra which the bits are included in the kit...probably the hydra will do better lol
I don't think I have ever disagreed with you more. It will shred light infantry, but far more importantly, it is a great debuff and decent damage option into heavy infantry. This is a great option into anything that is going to try to shoot and fight where the -1 to hit really gets to shine.
You have an odd definition of "Shreds". Assuming no order (who orders a Wyvern) and no Scout Sentinel you kill like 3.3 out of 20 Termagants (the ideal target really). Assuming you are just doing indirect fire of course (Although the other weapons won't add much. mb 1-2 more). That's pathetic for the cost.
There's argument to be made that the -1 to hit can be potent, but that depends on the faction you are facing. For quite a few factions it's basically useless so the ability is mid tier at best.
I'm not convinced the Wyvern is trash tier (it has a decent defensive profile for the cost after all and at least a hunter killer missile, which may do something), but it's still pretty bad against many factions and only alright against the best use scenarios.
@theStamax it kills light infantry the same as a basilisk which cost more points, but that isnt the point. The point of the unit is the debuff. If that isn't something you think is valuable, then you won't like it. I would love to tag chosen or centurions or terminators with -1 to hit before they closed on my lines.
@@Bobhope99 Oh I do value it, but it's value greatly depends on who you are fighting. Terminators? Sure sounds good until you realize that either they will demolish what they hit regardless or it'll have oath of the moment and the -1 to hit does nearly nothing.
Same for CSM really, with all their access to hit rerolls.
There are absolutely situations where it can be worth it, but as I said. It's not gonna be universally useful.
Half the armies in the game are Space Marine tier or better. There's comparatively few armies with light infantry.
I hope theyll give the poor wyvern some love at the next rules update. Additionally, i feel like there is space for something like the griffin too-maybe convert the griffin into something more like the biovore and make it a mine thrower instead of a mortar? That could be fun
The biggest issue that I can see of not just Guard artillery but artillery in general is that Games Workshop doesn't let it be its thing. They keep trying to make the game a single-dimension battlefield, where it is just infantry and tanks. Aircraft and Artillery keep getting shafted, despite the constant addition of ever more terrain.
For me, artillery should absolutely SHRED infantry, no matter what it is. Space Marines, Terminators, Guardsmen, whatever, they should be absolutely SHREDDED by artillery.
Getting leman russ exterminator oroverlapping fields of fire on a target before the wyvern fires could be a really nice buff. The AP-1 AND ignores cover could really do some damage. But that's a lot of set-up, so idk how useful it really is.
I think at that point you probably want a good artillery piece to shoot. The low strength of the attack is the problem. Something you stacked buffs on like this is a high priority targets that can probably resist the 2d6 (TL) of 4+ 5 0 1 the Wyvern spits out. It still has to wound on strength 5, the AP just helps for the armor save.
If you want to fish for sixes on a budget two mortar HWS will outperform with triple (!) the amount of shots.
Good arty like Earthshaker Battery (D6+3 of 5+ 8 -2 2) and Medusa (D6 of 5+ 10 -3 3) has AP to compensate for the lack of ignores cover and their higher strength and higher damage can actually threaten tanky targets on hit rolls other than 6.
If you're worried about the ballistic skill bring the Basilisk for 150 instead of 110 points and get the earthshaker gun that hits on 4+.
ty for reviewing the wyvern Mordy !
This is actually my favorite vehicle in the faction and the game; I absolutely adore the lore and look of this thing and its actually what got me into the guard 2/3 of the way through 9th. I recognize its pretty awful and has been since i picked up the faction but i cant imagine falling in love with this army the same way without it. I had one but it was accidentally permanently reconfigured into a hydra by an overenthusiastic friend who was trying to help lol. However, im planning on getting at least 2 more to replace it and probably another Hydra as well
A note. A friend of mines been running 12 sentinels. It's similar to your mixed guard lists. But replace the tanks with sentinels. Add creed instead of leontus to get enough orders for everything since they count as regiment.
Unit 1. Creed command blob infantry platoon. 70+180
Units 2-4. Death corps blobs. 190x3
Units 5-6 scout sentinels x6. 180x2
Units 7-8 armored sentinels x6 210x2
Units 9-11. Mortar teams X2. 60x2
Unit 10-11. Basilisk x2 135 x2.
Total 1990 including grand strategist. Last thing is a death mask for the middle objective marshal.
Total end 2k.
Tbh imma still get the wyvern as it's cool and 2 it's good for my motorised squad
I’ve never used it but 2d6 blast at Str 5 with twin linked and its suppression ability doesn’t seem horrible. Problem is 2 mortar teams for an extra 10 points puts out 6d6 blast at Str 5. The ups are it’s more survivable against counter battery fire than the heavy weapon bases, it has twin linked which may come in handy vs terminators, and the suppression ability. The Cons, as stated earlier you get 4d6 less shots than 2 mortar teams.
It's actually even worse than 4d6 fewer shots than the mortar teams, because the Wyvern only benefits from blast once. If you have 2 Mortar HWTs, you get Blast x6. Into a 20 man blob that's an extra 24 shots. For the Wyvern it's only 4 extra shots.
Glad I saw this I almost bought one. I still might for fun later but I'll hold off.
It’s just a debuff weapon. The -1 to hit is actually stronger than it looks because it not only affects shooting but also melee. It’s trash tier damage for sure but forcing an elite unit army to hit on 4s makes them worse than guardsmen with orders on the hit roll. If it only effected shooting it is meh but being able to slow melee with a basilisk and then tagging them with a -1 to hit is very disruptive to a lot of game plans. I think it’s actually sleeper good regardless of terrain rules.
Basically it comes down to how much do you care about getting the benefit of a decent buff without having to paying a CP a turn to do it.
Remember when these were the new hotness?
Pepper Ridge Farm remembers.
to all the comments pointing to the nice hit debuff: damage is a defence on it‘s own. if you hit them harder, they won’t shoot back as much - dead enemies is the better debuff for me.
I'm not sure if you did this review because I requested it a few videos back or just because it was the next up on your list on your walkthrough. In either case, thank you very much for your insight and opinions on the Wyvern.
My first Artillery piece, how fortunate that you can just shove the Hydra barrels into the Wyvern and Presto, it's a Hydra, which is also not that good.
bring back pie plates and scatter dice
"A brief overview of what this unit actually is"... its a flack hydra that had its barrels broken off and they said ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ lets make rules for it....
I personally like the Wyvern.
The the chance to bring it out in games despite how crap it is ❤️😢
Poor wyvern, such a cool looking tank. Make it 80 pts or give it 3d6 shots, S6, AP-1 with all it's current abilities then it might start getting close to worth the 110pts
If it was 80 points I think it would be worth it
I used to love this thing in 6th edition. I ran three of them and it would regularly kill entire units of terminators
It’s great against light infantry like Eldar though… especially our fast aspects
I'd generally rather have either two more mortar teams or an extra chimera with double flamers filled with catachan. Slightly more expensive, but vastly more lethal in both cases.
@@quincykunz3481 Mortar teams are interesting, but vastly easier to kill
If it’s special rule also affected both monsters and vehicles, then it would have a place
Alas, poor wyvern. I like the Suppression Bombardment (with two wyverns you can spread it around a bit) but I have a hard time justifying it against the basilisk, who basically gets an identical number of attacks and shreds enemies like MEQs.
Bring back the Griffon!
I suspect the hydra won't come into it's own until the guard get their codex, and a tank detachment.
If I may, I believe the strength of the wyvern is it's balance of firepower, toughness, and point cost. At 110 points per, you can take one in a 500 point game with scout sentinels and a tank commander. Las sentinels and an MBT with bolters and front mounted las cannon would be a solid all around force. You can also just add a new formation for every 500 points after.
I do like this view, although I’m not sure how many people are playing 500pt games.
We usually look at data sheets in 2000pt armies. You’re right, certain things get better in lower point games.
Given me a lot to think about as I Do tend to play sub 2k games.
lil bro playing Warhammer 500 years BC 💀💀💀
@@destroyersend5299 as I said, a new formation for every 500 points. You can do whatever after 1500.
I miss the Medusas.
Lvo inspired me to print one...
At least it only takes 5 seconds to swap between Wyvern and Hydra. Just don't glue in The AA Autocannons
Bring back my Griffons you cowards!
Whatever happened to the Griffon?
Guard has reasonable options to stack up AP, with ignores cover, withering hail and fields of fire, can’t this do reasonably?
Not really. The problem is the low strength for the wound roll, the AP just helps on the armor save.
The wyvern statistically rolls 7 attacks they hit on a 4 -1(indirect) +1(heavy) = 4. Statistically we roll every number 1⅙ times so we get 3½ hits.
On the wound roll you need a 4+ for toughness 5 a 5+ for 6-9 and a 6+ for 10+. Your sixes automatically wounded thanks to lethal hits, but you still have 2⅓ normal hits that realistically will only wound on a 5+. With twin linked you can either reroll everything that wasn't a six to get one of each roll, so one more guaranteed wound and two more hits or reroll just the 3½ misses. A tough choice.
Two HWS with mortars throw 6d6 of attacks out. Thats a statistical average of 21 attacks. They hit on 5+ -1(indirect) +1(heavy). You roll every number 3½ times. That's more sixes than hits on the Wyvern. And they all autowound.
Ap and ignores cover apply to the save roll that follows after you know how many wounds you would apply. The wyvern would make the save one step harder, but it didn't deliver on enough wounds for this to swing things in it's favor.
I would take 2 of these over 3 mortar HW squads and Creed, -1 to hit is very good and spreading it around onto anything you need to is very nice, at that point you don't even need it to do any real damage. Mortars aren't serious damage dealers so getting a solid defensive profile and a useful ability at the cost of afew shots is a worthy trade IMO.
I think youd be mad to pick 2 wvyern over 3HWS + creed, but the comparison isn't exactly fair. The three HWS would need three orders to hit similarly to the wyverns and creed can only order two.
The fairer comparison would be creed attached to an infantry squad with a mortar and 2 HWS (same 235pts compared to 220 wyverns), but you can actually manage the orders. With Creed's you get one free fields of fire on the unit she is leading plus a potential free CP because of the vox in the unit she is leading. If you roll 5+ you can get the resources for the suppression stratagem. You also still have her two orders (getting your mortars up to the same to hit) and you can throw out a second fields of fire of you have to. Fields of fire benefits all units in your army, so the additional -1 AP really goes a long way. On the damage side this setup still gives you 7D6 to fish for sixes.
If you want to get even more flexible you can go with 1 HWS +3 mortars, creed, a platoon command squad +1 mortar and an infantry squad +1 mortar. You'd go down to 5D6 but you are able to project creeds orders forward into your front line infantry or your scout sentinels. If you are fishing for 6s anyway because of the 5 strength take aim isn't the best order.
@@saubohne I think the points have changed since I originally commented.
Used a Wyvern last week.
4 turns of shooting, with +1 BS order, and two supporting mortors from supreme command blob.
Killed a 10 man guardian unit. The mortars killed at least 4….
Was really disappointing. I feel like it’s best use is to give -1 to hit on threatening infantry, basically used as a free suppressing fire/turn
I actually think this is an issue with the game in general, anti tank and anti l heavy infantry seem to be better at killing light infantry than anti light infantry
Player sisters with my nids, and every turn the anti tank exorcist out performed the anti light infantry exorcist (played swarm so lots of 20 termie blobs)
And don’t get me started on how well a forge fiend wipes light infantry. (Loosing three 20 man blobs before you take a turn is game over for nid swarm)
tbh im biased, but I am of the view that any serious guard list should have 3 hwt. They are the best for cost fire support.
Unless all you're playing against is swarms of gaunts, that absolutely is not the case :P HWT suffer because they're less durable than tanks, require more screening, have a larger foot print do less damage and have less utility than basilisks/manticores
My boy is beautiful and he will make every list I make. 😤😤😤😤
This unit was pretty good on first roll out. It then got nerfed and seemingly has been nerfed ever since.
Let’s fart in their general direction 😂😂😂
you just been running through the trash units havent you :P
The debuff is nice to have but the stats on the gun are just not good enough to make it into lists. 2d6 hits is too low and swingy as hell before you get into the other stat line stuff
Yes, it was used in a LVO list. That doesn't mean its all that good. It has a useful ability and thats basically it. Its a one trick pony. I really lament how far the wyvern has fallen. I have 2 of them and they were a staple of my lists in 7th and 8th edition. It really does need to have better firepower considering it seems to be sacrificing firepower for durability which is pointless when its not supposed to be shot at in the first place
Seems like it would be great in a list with no Creed, like one with a Super Heavy. Maybe try that out if you wanna use your model.
110 points to clear cultists from backfield objectives, no support needed. Way cheaper than most alternatives, and it stays on the board (unlike deep strikers).
does gw not know how to just blast X4
let me clarify blast X (times 4)
WAIT it trash tier now? i know the gun "S" is low but it for infantry right?
It's only 2d6 shots and even with blast, you get an average of like 9 shots and they have no ap. The ignoring cover is nice but hitting on 4s base and kind of relying on indirect fire means you need a scout sentinel constantly spotting for them. Even with that against marines you will about 8 shots, 4 hits, call it 4 wounds and then they save 3 out of 4 roughly. Against gargoyles and orks it probably does well against due to the low save but even so. A few dead gargoyles or ork boys from what used to be a squad delete button is basically the same outcome as a squad of guardsmen
Fortunately, gaurd has easy access to outside Ap, so into the kind of targets you want to shoot this at, it will have plenty of ap. It is also twinlinked, which is great.
From personal experience, I would say you're better off taking a basilisk
Even if it was boosted to 4d6 shots at strength 6 Ap -1 ... Still not sure it would be worth it
To me it's the AP- that dooms it. Either significantly lower the price or up AP to 1 and lower price slightly.
@@jacob5700 With Guard indirect fire vehicles, there's always the hull premium tax you pay. You're likely only to take fire / be charged in one turn of a game so why pay points for the artillery vehicle unless ut has a very good gun (which basilisks and manticores have) therefore it has to be costed appropriately, and anti-infantry artillery needs to be lower on the costing curve than high strength artillery so I totally agree, whatever happens it just has to be cheaper
Ya the griphon was way cooler...
Wyvern is good in specific lists where you have no infantry orders and need back objective chaff clearing.
So for example, a list with a Super Heavy elite killer in a tournament with less terrain.
Hey !!! why redheaded !!!
It doesn't have a machine spirit
@@orthanus emotional damage!
My hot take: 6th at LVO could've been a better rank if his army wasn't held back by inferior artillery
Trash